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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride For sitting up this interview, you emailed me a couple of your thoughts in terms of what you may want to talk about. And you emailed me saying, Do you want details of my dysfunctional family, selling my body on the First Avenue in New York City, dancing with Nina Simone in a city nightclub, serving beer to Marlena Dietrich at a party given by the gardener? And my HIV story? And I'm thinking Yes. So I'm not sure we do we stand. [00:00:36] That was the tip of the iceberg. I must say. None of those things are very important in my life. But it's interesting that when I mentioned those, and then a big name, people in my life turned out to bumping into these people. And I think serendipity played a big part in my life. Because I did come from a dysfunctional family. We're having an alcoholic father, I think that isn't necessarily result of not being fathered father who wasn't able to behave like a father because he was in the throes of alcoholism for most of my life. And because I was the youngest in the family of four, I experienced it to the fall, because that's when he got worse as he got older. And he died quite young at 64. And I turned 70 this year. So I'm six years older than he was when he died, was his birthday actually, last week. And he, I've learned to forgive him because this is where the dysfunction came in. I never really loved him. He wasn't one of those loving fathers. He was badly fathered himself and he passed it on. So the rest of the family reacted in different ways to him but in my way, I had to it probably adds to my being gay as well, because I've never heard the love of a man in my life. [00:02:10] Where did you grow up? [00:02:12] I was born in a little town in the northwest of New South Wales, called warrior elder place of wild honey. And the aborigines were there but very much invisible. And I found later to my distress, that they were on a mission station and being mistreated like all the aborigines were in Australia, but at the age of five, we moved with the the fourth side of my mother to Gosford, which was a little town midway between Sydney and Newcastle, where my father had been promised a news agency, which fell through actually, but because we had a newsagency in more elder, which she bought, after the farm that he didn't hear it from his father, who was a farmer. My father was never going to be a farmer. He, but he was given a property on marrying my beautiful mother in Sydney 1929 and didn't work out. So I thought, well, he likes books and newspapers and things like that. So they bought a news agency, which function very well, but in a small country down. And a man who was really all I was born in the country, he was Britain, Sydney city, and he was quite a lad. He just got together with the other men in the country town, played cards and drank. And that's all they did. This was before the war. I was born at the right at the end of the Second World War. And so five years in yc, which was I don't remember very much, but it was a tiny little Township. But it's a good way to begin my life. And then I really grew up in Gosford, [00:04:12] and and you were saying that that you identify as gay? So isn't it as it as a young child? I mean, did you did you know that? Did you know what gay wants to do? I do. [00:04:24] A photograph here I'll share to you that the youngest photograph I've ever had, when we didn't have cameras when I was born. I think I was about 18 months there or two years. That was taken on Ocean Beach on the Central Coast. We were in holidays there from summer holidays, we went down there. And I truncated that photograph because I'm wearing a woolly swimsuit he did with a strap around it. And I was sporting a gigantic direction. And I was so embarrassed when I'm but also to see me as a two year old toddler with an erection that I cut it off. I don't know how symbolic that was. But I was lost. I got lost from my mother and father on that day and I was crying I'd run away. I'm really run away. But that's the earliest photograph me. And as much as I didn't know what six was, when I was two, I was sporting an erection. Then [00:05:27] later when I discovered water was used [00:05:32] quite a bit the rest of my life. But I looking back, I felt a strange attraction to men when I was a teenager. Boys. It's cool. I had schoolboy crushes. But I was also attracted to women. And I had lots of girlfriends, and didn't really have a boyfriend until I felt hook line and sinker with my first lover. When I was 23. Now was in Paris. [00:06:06] in those early years as a teenager or teenager, were there words that were being used for gay people. I mean, was no [00:06:15] gay what gay wasn't around then? [00:06:18] I suppose. And [00:06:21] I remember when I finished school, I had a quite an illustrious ending at school, I was a head prefect and I was ducks at the school. And you know, everybody expected me to do big things my. But I wasn't really very academic. And I wasn't keen on studying. Although I got a scholarship to study to become a teacher, which I taught but we didn't have any money. It was a poor family. And I went to Newcastle University, although I would have preferred to go to Sydney. But Newcastle was good. And that's where I met somebody who changed my life because my life had been especial points of changing. And I can look at certain things that happened. For instance, when I was a student, I went to a very small Christian Brothers college at Gosford. So being the head boy in ducks wasn't any really big thing. But it just happened to be that way. And I've got a tail end of that story. Because recently I was invited back to present awards at that school because I've been 5050 years since I was the head boy there. And I gave a speech on World AIDS Day. And I came out to my old school. Anyway, that's another story but was a very important thing. Because in those days know being gay was not an option. It didn't exist, especially in my family. But when I went to Newcastle I remember being tracked, attracted to looking at muscle magazines and things like that. That's when the first Penny started to drop. But for two years at Newcastle University, there's still wasn't an outlet for me until I went to Sydney. And when I went to Sydney, [00:08:10] and [00:08:11] penny dropped in so what year was [00:08:15] that? Would I let the young school leave I left when I just turned 16. It was not in 61. [00:08:22] So in 1961, certainly what was that lower two years in Newcastle [00:08:26] I went to Sydney in 6363, Sydney and just started to have a little bit of gay culture. The purple onion was open, which I didn't go to bed I used to go to, occasionally to she's IV, which was a bar with a sauna attached toward it Bondi Junction. And that was my first discovery of all things a bit in drag and Gator drag queens there. So it would be not in 63 and four, five and six, that's been five years in Sydney, then going to changing universities and dropping out of faculties. And then when my father died in 1967, I've been studying law, I feel free to drop law and fulfill my dream of going to France. But by then I knew that I was attracted to men. And I'd had a lot of one night stands with men that I picked up. And in Sydney, of course, the international city, I've met a few overseas people and I was always attracted to people from other countries. Actually, the first boy lived with him for a while, was from Tunisia. He was a beautiful Tunisian boy who fell in love with me. I didn't know what love was, but I do know that he was in love with me. And we live together and darling point in a little shack, Delhi put the most expensive part of Sydney and fondly look back only Madonna would have happened to him. But yes, he was in love with me. And I was in lust with him, I suppose. But it didn't last too long, because I could see that he was getting interested in me and I knew I was free spirit. I needed my freedom. [00:10:17] And sooner or later [00:10:21] I managed to leave Australia and go to France, which was where I wanted to go. always had a love affair with friends. Because getting back to my schooling. We didn't have a very good education system with the Christian Brothers. They were very good teacher but there are some good ones. But because my family when they didn't get a news exiting goes for they opened the first bookshop in Gaza one bit of I have to look at the good things my father gave me which was love of books. I grew up in a bookshop. And because we had the only bookshop in Gosford in the first one there we attracted anybody who could read and healing person Gothic came to us and so we met the right people and Gosford, there weren't that many, but one of them was a French woman, French Canadian woman who was married to an American and she used to come into our shop. And her her French perfume just knocked me dear I love fell in love with French perfume ever since I've always bought expensive French cologne. But I managed to get her to come to our school to teach us French oral. So from a very early age, I was able to speak French. And that little serendipity I call the luck of the draw was instigated by me, but it was luck as well. My father bookshop, Rose Carmichael came in beautiful French woman. And she taught me to speak 13 when I was still forming my vowels, how to speak perfect French. And that's to be in very good stead for later when I dropped out of French, and went to Paris. [00:12:04] Just one question before we go to Paris, when did you ever have any issues around your homosexuality? [00:12:11] Well, [00:12:13] it's funny because [00:12:17] I felt these urges and I mean, I remember having a bit of mutual masturbation with one of my schoolmates. But you know, everybody did it. It was forgotten because the girls were there and your passion girls, and that was it, because you couldn't have sex with them. And this was part of my big frustration, of course, is that when I started to reach puberty, which was a bit late. I mean, I was probably 18 when I lost my virginity. And that was to a Danish Countess. So I started off at the top end, I lost my virginity to a Danish characters on the beach, at Gotham, the beach and specter, and it was a very fraught situation because she did not want to lose her virginity, she was a virgin. And when I say I lost my virginity, I was the first time I realized I was a jacket. And see, I wasn't masturbating before then a That sounds very slow arrival to the 16. And it was very traumatic experience, because she wouldn't allow me to have full finished of six because she was a virgin. But that was the first time I remember ejaculate. And it was a, I didn't know what it was, you know, so we talked about it. But soon after, of course, I discovered men taught me a lot more about sex. And it was much easy with them, and was much more satisfying. But I was still having very good sex with girls as well. But of course, with girls came a lot of baggage. And I kept on having sex with women to will into my 30s. And had lots of I remember all the women that I went to bed with, I don't remember all the men. I mean, the number of men I would have gone to bed with put number in the thousands, whereas the women would be probably about 20. And I know the more and I feel very fond of them to with more of a being fond of them without being in love with them. [00:14:26] So would you use any form of label to identify your kind of sexuality? Like I mean, I use the word gay, but I mean, would you? would you use the word gang? [00:14:37] Now? Well, it's true. It took me a while to actually say I'm gay. Because obviously I'm bisexual. I think most people are bisexual. It's just that a lot of them don't express it. And I've noticed living in Tasmania for three years, and here. Zealand's got a parallel. There's so many man who got married because it wasn't permitted to be gay in their culture. Luckily, I never got married, although I tried to once because I felt I wanted to settle down. And there was I think all gay men want to settle down eventually. And I had women in love with me, so I could have done it. But anyway, that's another story. It didn't happen, thank goodness. But as far as sexuality goes, I used to say I was paired sexual. Because I'm a little bit like Germaine Greer, the great Australian, female Eunuch author, who was also a Catholic educated girl who went a bit crazy when she came out. I went crazy when I discovered sexuality, too. And I'm a very sexual person. I'm creative as well, I think it goes hand in glove. And for a while six rule my life I was in addicted to sex, I can quite honestly say I was a sex addict. In the 70s, as a lot of men were. And of course it had its effects didn't know. I contracted HIV. The very moment I did that, I remember the person, the exact mom, but it happened. [00:16:21] To hear about it. [00:16:23] Well, it was just after I actually had proposed to my lady I was living with, because at that stage of my life, I had [00:16:32] an absolute [00:16:35] I was a health fanatic, in a way. I knew from an early age that that what IH was very important to my health below. We grew up with a very, in a very ignorant cooking household. My mother was reasonable cook, but we just ate to live. And that was about it. But I knew that food was very important. And I discovered food, possibly when I lived in Paris in my early 20s. But back in Melbourne, when I was [00:17:07] well on to my 30s I met a woman who was through [00:17:18] and Wigmore who is a very famous health guru in the world, the woman who discovered wheatgrass juice. And she'd been brought to Australia by this girl who eventually became my girlfriend and new wife. And and Wigmore is the most charismatic woman I've ever met. Out of the many people I've met, and I've met a lot. She was one of the most charismatic, and she liked me too. And we did have something special. She was made to join her actually, on one of her cruise ships where she taught health food. But she was a victim of the Federal Drug Administration of America. And not very long ago, probably about 15 years ago. She died in a fire in her building in Massachusetts, and I'm quite sure that was orchestrated. And she was murdered. Because she was bringing health naturally to people. Anyway, I met and was introduced to wheatgrass juice and author to Jenna we ran a live food business together. And she was growing the wheatgrass we had people come to us all around Melbourne, who had diseases they couldn't look after. And we believe that a detoxify the body, the body can cure itself, the old hippocratic of if you give your body the right situation will cure itself. And I've always lived by that. And that's part of the reason that I'm still here and healthy today. Because I never I always knew that HIV when it came along with not kill me. Well there for a while, I doubted its efficacy. And I I do have to accept now that it is a deadly virus. But for quite a while I did not believe that. But anyway, the night I contracted HIV, the only time I've had unsafe sex, ever. And it was after I had broken my relationship with Jane. And that was the result of me going away on a sexual discovery weekend, which she had orchestrated to the country with an American guru of that stage with the 70s. Don't forget, we're all discovering everything. And I mean, when I went to America, not in 69 I mean, I cut my teeth on Timothy Leary, and I was in the west coast in the late 60s, when you know, sex was rampant. And I was discovering myself I was another young, attractive Australian, so I was up for grabs. I was all over the place. Anyway, went to the sexual weekend. And of course, it was a lot of people talking about six there. And I came back and told Jane that was a lovely weekend. And of course, she would knew that we were both bisexual, everybody was bisexual. And I told her that had sex with one of the boys on the weekend and she hit me in a fit of rage, she hit me anger. And I'm not good coping with anger at all. I i regress I retreat. And I retreated very much into my shell and told her that there was no future for us because I number one I was bisexual or gay. And I couldn't cope with anybody with can't hit me. But I felt so guilty about that, because I had promised to marry her. And she was in love with me that I went out and trash myself in one of the six clubs in Melbourne. And I think underneath it all I knew what I was doing because I had unprotected was not in 83 and I had a lot of unprotected sex with one person in particular. And of course, two weeks later, I had the flu symptoms, which was a very well known symptoms of HIV. But because I was leading such a healthy life, I didn't test positive for another five years from 1988. But that stage, I knew that I was going to survive anyway. And the phone call I got when I'd left Melbourne because I'd spent five years in the war of a to Melbourne which was a real war as anybody who lived through that no. And I was I remember sitting through a night with the first person database in Melbourne. We used to take it in turns going to his house because I was one of the first of the I to help us they joined the support group. And he was covered in copper sick and dying. And so I saw it was like to die of AIDS. And then my friends started dropping like flies. So an 88 when I left Melbourne I needed to retreat, I went back up to Gosford and offered a job in an art gallery, which is a great job. [00:22:21] And that was another seminal point in my life. Because I as I mentioned, I'm jumping all over the place. But, you know, I had, for instance, when I left Australia in 1969 to 1968 my father died in 67. I was free to leave, I didn't have any money, because I built a university for six years not earning any money, except our jobs. I got a job as a taxi driver in Sydney, and a little bit of money. And while I was driving a taxi, one of my fears. I told him that I was wanting to go to France, I was my dream to go to live in Paris. [00:23:03] He said Oh, he he just got off the Holland America Line. [00:23:09] And they took work away. Passengers work away. Fair, you know, to Europe. And as it is, so I went along and so within two weeks, I had got a passport that accepted me on this ship called cup finished. And it was leaving Sydney in December. And I was almost as a weapon [00:23:38] with three Kiwis. [00:23:40] We're all working at passage to the big new country, America, which I had never planned to go to. Because like a lot of Australians are being bred on cowboys and Indians movies and a lot of American crap and it was Europe that was I'm for but luckily, I had a taste of experience of America. My first services country was America, [00:24:03] and how long we do? [00:24:05] Well, [00:24:07] I got off the ship in Vancouver actually, because I was so sick of working my way in this engine room for 30 days. It was our first port of score with Vancouver and it was the middle of winter. I woke up and the dock was covered with with citrons covered in snow as the heaviest snowstorm that had in 20 years. I had about $200 in my pocket that was all ahead to arrive in Paris. At a lot of lovely each other now what I do have that luxury I think I stood all across America because I ended by hitching from Vancouver to New York. Although I went by bus, part of the way. I was about eight months in, in America, most of the time in New York City. But soon I was looked after again because see what happened to me. When I was living in Sydney, one of my flatmates at that time was Simon Townsend since became a very famous TV personality. With Simon's Townsend's wonder world. I don't know if it ever came to New Zealand. He was had an enormous success with children's television. And he is living with Mary Jane was catching American Kings Cross and I shared with him for a while. And Mary Jane came from a very wealthy California family. So when Simon when I left Australia, I told Simon I got this ship to California and he said, I go look up Mary Jane's family. And they are a millionaire family in Oakland. So I mean, this is where I was, you know, I was filling my feet, I had no money. I stayed with Mary Jane system in Oakland for a little while. And then Lyft because I knew I had to get over to New York to get to France, because that was my destination. And to get to France, I had to I wasn't going to fly it was when we didn't fly the 60s. So I wasn't the first option. Also, I didn't have any money. But I always knew that I would get the you know, the blindness of youth. I mean, the optimism of youth, I would get to Paris. And of course I did. You know I hitchhiked across America and I got to New York. But my passport had run out. And I was actually illegally in America by that stage, because I've only had a 60 day visa. And I went to the United Nations in New York. It's true their mission and got a job with him. And I've got diplomatic immunity. So there I was in New York with the job with Australian mission, the United Nations in 1969. [00:27:04] So 1968 1969, these were big years in the US in terms of civil rights, but also gay rights [00:27:11] is very big [00:27:12] in America. Yeah. Can you describe for me what that was like being there at that time? [00:27:17] Well, they were I mean, I look back and see it more clearly now. Because Because I was living as you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, for instance, I remember going to a party at the French Embassy in New York, where one of the top rock musicians of the day, Richie Havens with playing as you know, one of the great bass guitars of all time, and I didn't even know who he was, you know, we just shook hands and said, Hi, because already I was mixing with French people then. And, but that was when Stan will happen not in 69. And I wrote about that. That's why you've invited me to give this story because I was living in New York, when the Stonewall Riots happened, which did change the whole face of gay liberation the rest of the world. And although I wasn't at the Stonewall bar that night, I used to go every night of the week dancing because I loved it. Within this career. I love dancing, especially with the black men, who are great dancers. And I remember hearing about the next few weeks, that they've been a drag queen revolution at Stonewall. But because I was living life to the fullest, I didn't have a problem with my sexuality, then I it wasn't around. All of this happened in the background. So the witness the history, but not part of a thing until I actually was in the first march in Sydney, in about 10 years later, which was an echo of the stone, will they because that happened in 19 [00:29:01] 77, I think in Sydney, when I was back, [00:29:06] but I as I said, I seem to have touched the This was because when I went to Paris, [00:29:12] I [00:29:14] was part of the student revolution there. Because the big 68 revolution was still happening when I arrived in 69. And I sympathize with the students of course, and I was walking home one night via Gaza. And I could see all the police arriving at the station back from Nanterre which was the campus which was where the big activism was happening. So I joined the students and they're fighting and of course, was bundled along with them into spending a night in jail. So I have a lovely memory of being an Australian in jail as part of the student revolution. And that was a very important revolution, which reverberated all around the world, certainly all around Europe, with contended who is one of the leaders of it, then [00:30:14] just getting back to New York for a minute, and I'm wondering, in 6869, did you feel that the police were targeting gay trains or, you know, Rainbow people? I mean, were you ever singled out as a as a gay person? [00:30:32] It was interesting, because I think I got the job at the Australia mission. Because the, the, the man who employed me, I think, was a closet queen. And he fancied me. And he gave me a job, I don't know where they should go any further, but I certainly wasn't interested in him. But New York was a city of streets. And I lived on First Avenue. And I could see the boys cruising First Avenue. And this is why I mentioned I was sold my body for a while, because what happened is the Australian mission. After I worked there for about six weeks, I fell out of favor with the man who employed me because I didn't come to his party. And I was actually having an affair with the BlackBerry lady library. It was a lovely Australian girl. And she needed some sex education, I think, and, and I was there to give her because as well, I was going out dancing and tricking as we called it in those days with any boy who came across my way. But anyway, I got sacked from the United Nations. And so I there was black labor was illegally in America. And I didn't have any money. So what did I do? I saw these boys on the street. And I knew that I was I didn't have any problem meeting men. So yes, I went on the game for a little while for a very short while because I was not a very tough customer. And I always had to like my clients. And I ended up by liking them too much and not making any money. And really, so that little career on the streets didn't last very long. But it was a solitary experience because I've ever since identified a lot with prostitutes and street people. And that's why I like go to the prostitute collective here, which is a great in Wellington, which is a great sign of advancement in your country, having a collective to look after the prostitutes, because was, you know, they were not just a secondary race, they were very low down on the on the on the ranks, and they number among my best friends. But the way I had the money actually to go to Paris, there was in as a waiter, I got a job as a waiter. And you didn't have to show I had actually a social security card, which I've been told how to get mean in the 70s you could do you could break the law and a lot of ways in America. And it was difficult to get a social security number, which meant that I paid tax. And so I got a job as a waiter in one of the best restaurants in First Avenue as well the call the proof of the pudding. And it was heady days. You know New York in the late 60s it was dirty New York. It was forgotten the mayor wasn't ready Giuliani, I think he came later. But New York was a different city. I've been back a few times since then. And as much as I love this city, I did not want to become a New Yorker. So I managed to earn enough money. And again, serendipity came my way. I saw an ad in the on the walls of the way. MCA in New York for ship, a charter ship returning to Paris turning to love God heads vacancies been charged by a group of French school teachers for I think, was 100 and $200 $100. To get back to France. And I had $300 by that stage was not in 69. And so I I charged I got in this fringe charges ship with the people that always wanted to be with had a marvelous affair with one of the French women going across on the nine day cruise to have a nice beautiful arrival in France, you could imagine, caught the train from the UK to Paris. With my money, my French friend from Brittany, who took me to a hotel for the night in Paris. And my first night was spent making love to this lovely French woman, near girlfriend as well. And I couldn't sleep I just spent the night looking at the rooftops of Paris, and arrived in Paris with $200 in my pocket. And not in 69 and a dream. [00:35:24] What was the dream? [00:35:26] My dream. My dream was to live in Paris. And to put that into effect I had when I was back in Australia, applied to the French Embassy in Canberra for a job within our system, which is assistant and the French are very good at helping the students learn English. They go to all the English speaking countries, Canada, America, Australia and England and offer jobs for one year at a time to English speakers who have got certain proficiency in French and I had two years of French behind me at that stage. And I'd made an application at the French Embassy before I left. But they didn't make decisions until 12 months. And so when I left Australia, I'd only just put that application in. But I was dabbling, that I was going to get this job as an assistant. So when I arrived in Paris with no idea of whether I had the job or not. I'd stayed one night with in this hotel, thanks to my beautiful French girlfriend. And I had the address of one friend in Paris, who interestingly was an old count French for countertenor. He was an American singing on a scholarship. And he lives in my mark, one of the most beautiful areas of Paris. And I had his phone number from another French friend that I knew in Sydney. [00:37:03] So I rang up the [00:37:06] Department of Education for the next day and gave them my name and told him that I made an application to be an assistant. [00:37:16] And they told me on the phone [00:37:19] 50 years you have been given a job as assistant as it could ask where it is because it could have been anywhere in France. I said I'm hoping it in Paris, is it all You are very lucky because it's in EC conduct, say one of the best high schools in Paris, a school that muscle post attended, john paul self taught at I mean, one of the great schools I go to I had a job there, which was enough to keep me for 12 months in Paris. And because I loved it so much. I wanted to took one of the rare occasions to reapply. And I think one second system, they gave me a second job at a different school for another year. He was able to really instill my self love of all things French in that time and become a present because I didn't know anybody else but French people. So I became a person for two years, and had a lot of adventures with a lot of people. And it was a very hard time. And it was there I fell in love with a man. Another big experience which changed my life. And American in Paris. And he was the love of my life. I had three love affairs. But Fred was the first one. [00:38:53] And you brought today [00:38:54] a whole range of photographs of [00:38:58] Him because He loves his my life. So to the most brilliant people and one of them was brilliant in another way. But he was also very beautiful. First one was an American and New Yorker, a Jewish New Yorker. The second was a beautiful blonde new German, probably one of Hitler's plan to youth. Because he was born in East Germany. He was a model. And the third one was an English born Australian theatre director, one of the great theatre directors, and those two have passed away with it. And Harry, German. I really don't know what's happened to him. The last time I spoke to Harry, he was high on the hog of I think Special K they called it in Hollywood at that stage. Do you know it's Special K. It's it's it possibly is their version of methamphetamine. It became a porn star. [00:40:10] My second level was a porn star. [00:40:12] My first level was a [00:40:14] was a rock and roll. And the third level was a theater director. So there were very, very vastly different people. But [00:40:26] for a lot of other people in between time, [00:40:29] I'm really interested in just rewinding a bit where you were talking about having sex with women in with me and the woman you can remember. And I'm wondering for you is kind of love and six intertwined, or are they quite different things? [00:40:48] Well, this is, this is the big thing, because I was really a part of the sexual revolution. And the 70s in particular, everybody he was having sex with everybody. And sex was totally divorced from love. And I will could also see that the girls that I was having sex with, some of them could have been falling in love with me. And I was too free and too young, to want to be in love. And I didn't know what it was anyway. I mean, I was a very slow developer on that stratum. But it wasn't until I met Fred in Paris, in 73 or two. When I broke down, interestingly enough, complete massive tears. I'll never forget that night in his arms. I cried all night. It was an enormous emotional release, because something had happened with him. It wasn't Cupid shooting a thorough this man who was pretty came from a pretty dysfunctional Jewish family in the Long Island. But he was a brilliant child of the 70s as well. And he was doing a lot of dope. And we were smoking quite a bit of dope at that stage. He introduced me to a lot, but that's another story. He fell in love with me and the the love was just so blatantly clear. There was no question that we were in love with each other. And, you know, we could conquer the world as well. I had a bit of money, he he thought I was exhausted because I was Australian speaking perfect French living in Paris. And I thought he was exhausted because he was in New York City, which I've been to and lived in. But I didn't want to go back to particularly. [00:42:57] And he was [00:42:59] a rocker singer, had a beautiful voice and wrote some of the most beautiful love songs to me in the time we were together. And he'd also just come from spending a time in Spain. And he filled me with a desire to go back to Spain because I'd already been to Spain. Because just harking back to my first week in France, when I was told that I'd got the job is as he's done. I had met on the ship, which was full of French teachers, couple of young male school teachers, who had befriended and they told me that they had few more weeks of holiday and they were going for a car trip down to Spain. And I had the contact. So when I knew that I had a job in Paris, I contacted them. God knows how I did it. We didn't have mobile phones, and said look to what a companion going to Spain. And so I spent the first six weeks in Europe, on the mainland, traveling with him in Spain. And because I had to go back to school a bit before I did because I didn't go back till October. data goes back in [00:44:22] August, September. [00:44:25] I left them in Seville and the loo of Morocco was there. I had a love affair with Morocco. See, I've always been attracted to exotic places, exotic people and exotic places. And I had a few hundred dollars, hundred $200 American Express traveler's checks, that's all I had. But I hitchhiked and down to have just Cirrus and which is the port. Catch a boat to Tangiers? Somehow rather I knew I had to go to turn Geez, it was that fantastic time when Tangiers was still having amazing stories written about it. Anyway, I spent a couple of weeks in Tangiers when I was there. And it was here I was introduced to [00:45:24] hashish [00:45:26] because I'd smoked some marijuana in America and I was everybody was smoking but I never thought I'd ever had an effect but because of the very naive Australian I wasn't a drinker or a smoker. But in Morocco in 10, G's, smoking this incredible hashish from man Cortana. I knew that what dope smoking was all about then. So I made it was thrown in to the 20th century. Well to America of the 20 century, and it was American in Tangiers who introduced me to this beautiful black hashish smoking a pipe, one toke, and it was done for eight hours, is the best hash you could ever have the Rolls Royce of hashish. But I never got hooked on drugs is one of the things because, as I said later, I'm jumping around the thing a little bit here. But when I met her and Wigmore and Melbourne and I was on a health trip, eating on the raw foods and drinking wheatgrass juice, I knew that I knew how to look after my body. So when I did contract, HIV, and when it came through the test five years later, I had absolutely no problem whatsoever. About second mentors, I knew that I would win that battle. However, nearly did succumb to it 22 years later. Then I realized the danger of HIV. [00:47:08] I just want to take you back to Europe. And we'll just kind of cover off from Paris. We're you know, along with a foreign and when we did you go from there? [00:47:18] Well, I did. I had an amazing time in Paris because I was young. I didn't realize what how lucky I was. As an Australian in Paris. I was a real one. There were other Australians there, but I didn't know them. And I met some great people in Paris. But after my second year in Paris, and I decided to cast my lot with Fred. We went back to Spain because he'd been living in characters, which is the birthplace of Salvador Dali, and he was mad about Salvador Dali, and he was introduced by Salvador Dali. So we went back and we lived in characters for six months in the winter period. And we did meet Salvador Dali and quite a few occasions, going to his house and smoking a lot of dope and living with all the other people in characters which then with a hideaway little village, Salvador Dali was traveling all around the world. Hello. He was there when we were there. And it's it's become a mecca for the rich and famous. [00:48:37] What is it like meeting someone like Salvador Dali? I mean, [00:48:42] really, it's funny. I didn't meet all these people. I mean, when I was in New York, when I was doing the streets in New York, I met Rudolf Nureyev. we cruised each other on First Avenue, actually. And I saw him across the road, and I sort of liked the tilt of his cap. [00:49:01] walked across the road. [00:49:03] Is that a euphemism? Or is it [00:49:05] a meeting and, and we are nice recognize them immediately, of course. And it was one o'clock in the morning. And he obviously just come out of a sauna or something. Because he, native Earth was burning with desire. And of course, I was flabbergasted to meet him because I was a great fan of ballet. And we spoke, I knew he spoke French. So we conversed in French for about 10 minutes about completely extraneous matters. And he was charming, and I liked him very much. Until a car full of people stopped on the curb and whisked him off somewhere. And that was my little encounter was Rudolph. And it was it was it was equals talking to each other because we were learning on First Avenue. Now with Salvador Dali was a little bit the same. I mean, I met these two very big people in the world of artistic history. And I met them on an equal level. Cruising young man. I was 23 really was about 29. We're both attractive people. And he was rid of neurotic. And we met on First Avenue, you know, we're all the cruising was done in New York City. So we knew what we were there for. But, and with tally, we were I was living right next door to Dolly. We were living in an olive grove just around the corner from Portland. He got where he lived with gala in his wife in his with his big, actual house. And he used to enjoy meeting young foreigners who were living in the area on the weekends. And we went there for NT. Well, because I mean, I didn't have a camera. I didn't. We knew who he was. He was Salvador Dali. And I because gala was Russian. She liked speaking French. When we arrived at the house for afternoon tea. Fred, my American lover wanted to see all doll his artworks. And Dolly showed him around the house. And I stayed in the kitchen with gala talking food recipes. [00:51:35] So that was a bad it. [00:51:38] There was no big guy sort of thing because we were local as well. We were living in Connecticut. And we knew all the other people there were the people I've since found out that were much more famous than I knew. But they but we were part of the furniture too. But after that, we'd run out of money. And friends was trying to get a record cut because you know, I thought I was with this man who could sing and he was a singer. But he he didn't have what it took to cut the mustard. Although as a good New York Jewish boy bread in Long Island. He knew he had to know the right people to do anything. So we tried to read the mic. We used Salvador Dali, we had met Salvador Dali, again in hotel movies in Paris. Salvador Dali was a really lovely man. I mean, not like his madness, a little bit like, you know, Europe, when you meet people on their home ground two different kettle of fish. You're You're I wasn't mad, egotistical dancer. And I know when he came to dance at the microphones said they had to recreate a stage for mere and he wasn't happy with it. But you know, things were different when you meet people on different bases at all different. Anyway, my time in Europe, we went from Paris, a quick trip via Paris to London where we thought we'd do something. But it was in London, that table's turned. Fred decided that he wasn't going to make it as a singer in London. His family wanted him back in New York. And he pushed me into becoming a model, which I had no idea about in those days, because I was just a little Australian. But I happened to be the right height, the right shape and the right age, and easy in front of the camera. And so he pushed me to get some photographs done. And [00:53:54] the first job I did in London was for Christian deal. [00:54:02] And I'm just showing, Gareth, the photograph that appeared in London Vogue. They took these photographs of me which we introduced to do men's fashion to the world. And that was sort of luck that I had with my life that sold me on becoming an international model. [00:54:27] How did you get that small book? Had you done the modeling before? [00:54:32] I'd never the first time I've been photographed. [00:54:38] So obviously I was I was naturally in front of the camera. I mean, a lot of Australians become good top model because they're naturally in front of the camera. But it worked for me. And it had its downside as well, because it trapped me then for about 15 years of my most productive time I spent in front of a camera, doing few other things as well. But Fred went back to New York, and then I became the European model. Because I picked up [00:55:11] I spoke French and German. Because [00:55:16] I lived in Spain for a while I picked up Spanish and then I picked up Italian because they're very cousins language. So I finally fluid in five languages. And I was able to work in them as well. So worked around Europe, in Paris, Milan, Hamburg, Munich, Barcelona, Madrid, and had a very wild life, mixing it with a lot of the other top international models of that time, but not realizing what we're doing because it was just sort of you did it. We went, we were paid pretty well, but not the ridiculous sums that people are paid these days. [00:55:57] So when you look at those images Now, if you're suffering, you have been what kind of mid 20s? in those images? [00:56:02] I yeah, late 20s. So what do you what do you say to another person, I didn't recognize who it was. I mean, you would recognize either I shared that photograph, and nobody recognizes me. Because we get older. I mean, I'm 70 this year, [00:56:20] I changed slowly. [00:56:23] That movie eyes gave you which I made in in Melbourne, which was called theorem, a dream of change, which was about my Chilean friend who was a drama therapist. Through that movie, I met Sue, who became my partner for five years. So the two people who affected me in that movie. Those wanted to become a movie maker at that stage. But this was the only documentary movie that I produced. And that was very much of an arm's length. But Aldo, who was as you saw in the movie was a very charismatic, South American. And so who was one of the major people in the movie, she and I came together very closely. And she came to live with me in Gosford for five years until she passed away in 1993. And that was a seminal influence in my life. So meeting, although, when I came back from Europe, because elder introduced me to the world of people with disabilities. [00:57:40] And that's what the movie was about people with disabilities. [00:57:44] So when did you move back to Australia? [00:57:47] But 1976, I think, and then I [00:57:55] then I was modeling in Sydney and Melbourne for a while and wasn't happy. I still feel the European because when I was living in France, I always thought I want to live there forever. So I went back to Europe as a model via New York again, visiting Fred on the way who'd gone back to New York, but realizing that we were never going to get back together. Because he was well on to a different track. That story's a different story. I won't go into here. So I went back and stayed for another couple of years modeling in Europe. And that's when I met the second man in my life, who was a German model in Hamburg. And he came to London with me. But it wasn't a relationship that was ever going to last, although I was. I was in love with him because he was a beautiful soul. But he needed me more than I needed him, I think. And to finish the relationship on for simply, I had to leave Europe. Because his career was working very well as a model in London. He was doing very well indeed. And mine wasn't. So I came back to Australia, and not in 77 or not in 79. I think two years later, I went back to Melbourne. And that's when I started my new life and I studied a bit of moviemaking in 1981 I made this movie about elder and Matsu, not in it, it practical stood. So my life did have moments of change. And I sera converted in 1983 of the world. So that did have an effect on my life. [00:59:46] I'm interested when you say that you went back to the US and was 1976 1987 What was the difference between being there and say 68. And in a few years later, well, [00:59:59] the difference Prince's you know, they weren't that strong. I mean, my differences were that I knew where I was going to in our I was the European, I knew how to negotiate the countries. And I was reasonably established on the modeling scene there. And [01:00:20] my languages were very handy. And [01:00:25] I didn't tell you one interesting thing that happened on my first return trip to Australia, I booked a flight with Air France via Bangkok because I hadn't experienced Yes, it also thought I'd have a stop over for a couple of weeks in Bangkok before I went back to see my family my scene for five years. And on the plane, I'd noticed in first class because I'd walked up and down to get some exercise, a very interesting looking man sitting in first class. And because I was always quickly off the plane, I'm I happened to go through customs at Bangkok airport, right behind him. [01:01:10] And he heard me speak fluent French. [01:01:14] He was a freshman. And he asked to speak to me on the other side of the customs. And he was a movie director and he was making a French with Thai co production. And he asked me to join their team as an actor. [01:01:35] Sort of what he was really doing, was wanting me to look after [01:01:39] the leading lady, which I did. [01:01:45] The leading lady was one of the top projectors of her day still the most amazing woman whom I had a most beautiful three week affair with and we remained very close friends. The French movie was didn't sink without a trace. It made the father front of Bucky scope, the French magazine, and it was a story about colonial French in Thailand. And because within the rainy season and sort of Tony, we, the filming was very slow. And so we ended up by staying not just one week, it was three weeks. So I had to soak up the telegram I sent back to my mother saying, I'm in a French movie, I'll be three weeks later, I didn't get home for Christmas. So that was another thing that happened to me. You know, I I feel things fell across me. You know, good things happen to me. And meeting Sue, who was that? The lady in the movie who was a paraplegic, changed my life for the world because she was the most amazing person. And it showed me that you don't have have to have all your limbs to live a full life. So the five years I spent with her with some of the five best years of my life. [01:03:10] So what are your thoughts on things like chance meetings and fights? And I mean, do you do you have any kind of underlying? [01:03:19] Well, I used the word serendipity earlier, serendipity, I think is a chance, meeting, chance happening, usually for the good. For instance, I'll give you an idea of a serendipitous thing that happened to me when I was back in Australia. The second time, I was in Sydney, I've been working as a model. And I dropped out from a both university degrees law and art without finishing either of them. And I bumped into my French professor in this streets of Paddington because when I went to university in Newcastle, I showed a distinct flair for French and I got top marks and Professor hardy wanted me to do an honors degree. And I failed to many other subjects to continue it. So I went to Sydney to study law. But Kelvin Hartley was an amazing influence. I read a chapter in that book on of his life, he he was incredibly eccentric, French professor. And anyway, I bumped into him in the street, and we recognized each other. And he never looked at anybody in the eyes. He looked at the ground all the time. He was retired at that stage, and, and said, Oh, Professor, you remember me from years gone by said, You should have finished your degree, you know, you, you you. You shared a lot of ability. And that chance encounter stayed with me the whole time. Because years later, after Sue passed away, I was in Central Coast, Lake Macquarie, and it made contact with the sponsors in Newcastle. And they invited me to go to one of their meetings in Newcastle. And it was there I met the then Senior Lecturer in French at the university. And I told him that I'd studied undercover Hartley in the 60s. And they were very interested that because he was an iconic Professor Brynn Newton, john was the Chancellor when I was there. He taught me German. I did German French double. And Brynn was also a fantastic professor. And again, you talk about faith. I bumped into Brynn, 20 years later, because he was living with his third wife, who was my friend Sue's first cousin. And Brynn, of course, was the father of Olivia Newton john, and brings third wife, who was the much love of his life, was his first cousin, and we got to know him on a different level, just before he died. But anyway, getting back to this meeting, this chance meeting at the university. I was told that I could do why did I go back and finish my degree? So I thought, Okay, well, that could be something I could do, because I've always been starting and not finishing things. When you're a model you live from one day to the next. You know, I've I've never really had a serious job. But I went back to university, and serendipity would have it that kill the Hartley, my professor in the streets in Paddington is 15 years earlier, died five years before and left a million dollars in trust to the university for scholarships, which had been under legal dispute for another year or two to be released. And when I arrived back to study at the University. It was the year that the legal case had come to fruition, and his million dollars have become $2 million. And the scholarships which he bequeathed on students, I won [01:07:40] a scholarship to Paris [01:07:43] to finish my honors degree. So kilda, when meeting him in the street in Paddington, stay with me all that time I went back finished the degree which he started because he was a very good teacher. It was in the days when universities were different. The 60s are not like they are now noughties. It was an old school University Brynn Newton john was the vice chancellor. He was an ox K, Oxford, Cambridge man and a kilo with another from a different mold. But I went back in the 90s and finished my degree and went back to Paris squandered another six months in Paris was never a serious student and ended up with an honors degree. And [01:08:31] then looked at my mother for 10 years. [01:08:34] And this was back in Australia, [01:08:36] Gosford where I'm going back to in three months time. [01:08:42] So my life has been serendipitous in those occasions is it and I also believe that life is sort of a jigsaw puzzle and things are filling up. And, you know, New Zealand was the last place I ever thought I'd come to live in. Although being in your house here, feeling I could be anywhere in the world. That's what Wellington is, like, for me. It's a It's a beautiful international gem of a city. And in 1973, when I was living in Barcelona, I met a Brazilian who was very keen to show me his extra body, ability of going into a trance, and reading fortunes, the fortune teller, he went into a trance, and he read my fortune, told me something about past life, I didn't know him before, quite an accurate summation of what I did, when I was younger, and told me not in 72, that he saw me living in music, [01:10:02] which did come to fruition, [01:10:05] teaching and living in New Zealand, [01:10:08] which has happened in one way, but that's not the other. So who knows whether I'll come back or not. But so that was in his cards he saw. So that's why I believe that in the spiritual the I'm a very spiritual person, and it was spirituality, which led me to Su, and spirituality which led me to New Zealand and spirituality, which is taking me home to God's word. Because I believe that in the world of spirits, there's no such thing as time space continuum, that people can know the future. And not that we need to know the future. But this man, when he went into his trance, saw me in New Zealand in the future, and he was right. I was did come to New Zealand, and, but the effect of discovering a spiritual path, the same time, practically the same year that I, Sarah converted into a it was also a bit fatalistic, because I was given a death sentence in those days, and yet I was given a knowledge of afterlife. [01:11:33] So what year did use sera convert to 883? It was, [01:11:38] but that's when I got HIV, HIV rather than AIDS. Well, what is a II is an Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. HIV is the virus that carries that. But what happened to me 22 years after having carried the virus, my body slipped into a illness, which was an AIDS defining illness, which was numerous, this is currently in your mind your PCP, which was the killer, and that was 19. There was 2006. When that happened, and that was the year I first came to New Zealand. And that was the year that my Kiwi doctor and Gosford who had been, I've been saying for quite a few years, and who knew my story about refusing to take medication did not push medication my way because it was the person's decision to take it or not. And I had chosen not to take it. But I started to lose a lot of weight. And I became very, very thin, to the point of having no energy and realizing that, that my time was coming. And I remember having a dream, in one of my night sweats as you did wake up in the middle of the night, covered in sweat, realizing that I could either take it or leave it. And I was told that I had to take it, which meant the next day going to see my doctor and having an ami scan, being told that I was an inch away from full blown pneumonia, which would have carried me off. And I took the drugs and they brought me back to life. And now, so I've been on those drugs now for about 11 years, 69 years, taking them every day, just two pills a day. But they've my, my city focal cap went down to about 70 or 80, which was very risky, and built up to 500. So, you know, I've made an enormous recovery. And of course, I know how to look after myself. And the reason why I'm I did get sick at that stage is that. As I said, I spent 10 years looking after my mother, when you care for somebody, you forget to care for yourself. [01:14:11] What was your first memory of HIV AIDS? [01:14:17] of the whole effect? Well, it's very interesting one I heard it's crystal clear in my mind. It was 1981 in Melbourne, and the word had come from America that this gameplay was coming to Australia. And we all went to the dentistry building at Melbourne University, there are thousand dollars there. And it was hushed tones. And we were hearing that this incredible disease was going to hit Australia. And that 90% of people who were infected would die from it. It was a shocking thing that was happening to this preceded the Grim Reaper advertisement. But they did say 90% of people, and I knew that I would be in that 10% they never said was going to be 100% lethal. So I knew whatever happened, I would be in the 10%. And that was my first introduction to it, and I embraced it. Yeah, I've always been one. When you have a problem, you embrace it, you go out, and you don't run away from it, you go for it, and you fight it and embrace it, which is what I did from day one. I've always been strong in the AIDS care, the anti activism, I wrote for many magazines about how I thought I was not killing people. And then of course, the religious people. Peter Blaze, he was one of my very good friends in Sydney, who was also an AIDS activist. And he wrote this article for the then Sydney newspaper, just worth a look at. [01:16:04] I could see that people were dying of [01:16:10] the drugs that were taking, which was basically a ZT, which was shown them to be killer because they're over prescribing it. And I was really an activist against HIV and AIDS NT. And it was because I refused any medication for 22 years that I'm alive and healthy today. Because I didn't trust the multinational drug companies I'm everybody knows there are making dollars out of the AIDS phenomenon. And because of that, the drugs that I did take were much more sophisticated in 2006. And I've been able to live with them quite easily. But I have been very big on complementary therapies. I'm showing, Gareth, picture of me when I was writing for the continuum magazine, which was the big anti HIV magazine at that stage and there was a lot of people, including then President of South Africa, who was believing that HIV was not the cause of AIDS. [01:17:29] Paul, can you read this personal personal ad that you've you placed on 1997? [01:17:37] read it to me. This is this is when I was [01:17:42] single, I knew that I wasn't going to meet any body in Australia. And I was traveling back to Europe. And I put this ad in London. It's a personal column looking for a mate. The visiting Europe, November through January, would like a pen friend. Continuous and sympathetic. Continuing with the anti aids activist magazine. I haven't got a copy to show you here. I'd written an article for it called Lust for Life, where I told them how healthy I was because I'm not on medication. And I described myself perfectly well and healthy. Sick of the OZ scene of HIV deaths positive since 83. We'd love to meet similar soul of a young 52 lived in London in the mid 70s. circa Derek Germans Jubilee who was a very well known person who died of AIDS as well and will travel speak French and German. Like most things could be said to be adventurous and health conscious don't smoke or drink and management. Don't do the scene anymore. Needless to say, spirituality is an important dimension to my life looking to meet an open minded positive guy, age nationality on important but prefer fitness minded a dissident with him to kick this in cities system which is killing all our friends. I was very angry about it because I really all my friends died and Peter blaze he eventually died as well, who was also a dissident. But he'd had a year and I said TC I mean, Rex crampon. I really do believe some people had a death wish, who died early and as [01:19:51] I've never had a death wish. [01:19:53] And I've always known that if my body is well looked after it will survive. [01:20:00] But both these two major loves of my life, these two here, brilliant men [01:20:08] died in their prime [01:20:11] horrible deaths. [01:20:13] How? How was that received in terms of being kind of anti medication by the wider kind of community? How How did people [01:20:24] will Yes, it was interesting because [01:20:27] because I was so upfront about it. And I worked for a con in Newcastle for a while when I was living with Sue. And I was into complementary therapies then. And I was trying to teach people that if I looked after themselves, I didn't need to take medication. And I was living proof of it. I'd been 15 years positive, not a day's illness. But it was creeping up on to me I was having a few problems that I was ignoring. I was in denial. But nobody could really say anything against me because they didn't have any proof either. I mean, it has been a big study the whole time they've been experimenting on people. people died in droves being experimented on with HNT. [01:21:09] How did those early years of HIV AIDS and Australia impact on the communities and I guess just talking from your own point of view? [01:21:19] Well, I had to escape it. This is one reason why I'm still so positive and psychologically not scarred by it. Because for the first five years from 83, to 88, I was in the hub of the fight in Melbourne. And but I was burning out. And I needed to leave again, I was being looked after somebody arrived in Melbourne, from Gaza, they had a job they offered me managing an art gallery in Copacabana, that central coast where I grew up. And that's when I started to get away from the whole industry. Although I did work a little while and Newcastle a con for a while, but I was always on the edge. And that job I had for six months, as the HIV education of the was not renewed, I think because they knew that I was an AIDS dissident. And they didn't want me there. And I didn't mind leaving them because I had my life to live. I just never played HIV is never played a big part of my life. But it's always been there. And of course, I didn't really die from it. So it has been a life death situation. And now I have to take pills every morning for the rest of my life seemingly. So it's got to be with me until I die as well. But of course, there's no reason why I can't live with alumni it. And that's the way it could will be and a very productive life as well. Because, you know, I came to my last two years in Burlington have been incredibly productive. I was been on the board foot for two years. I'm on the board of interfaith here, which is part of my spiritual path. I'm the first person to join interfaith for my spiritual path here. And I'm finding that quite interesting event because certain things in New Zealand are very much in advance and certain things are very much behind. And I won't make any comment on that. [01:23:29] You mentioned earlier that that you're 70. Now, are there other issues that affect gay people as they age? Or is it just just [01:23:42] aging? Well, because there's still quite a percentage of people my age who aren't positive, who are aging gay men, of course. [01:23:52] It will be you in 10 years time. [01:23:56] So I think the Canvas has been prepared for KG now. And I've got a very good friend in Australia, who might be seen when I go back. He's very active in preparing retirement homes and HK facilities to be gay friendly, not gay, specific, but gay friendly, LGBT, QI friendly. And it he's working government circles in Canberra to bring that into the law, that people working in H care facilities have to be educated, and have to learn that there's different sensitivities for gay people in retirement homes. And they have to be themselves, because that's the whole aim about the fighting for equality and being oneself is that we don't have to cover up anymore, because for so long, we had to live double lives in a way. And that's the beauty of the law here. I mean, society hasn't caught up with the law yet in New Zealand, but it is slowly catching up, you still hear of sad stories in the past fences. But the law here is very good. One of my attractions to New Zealand was the fact that you are legally so much in advance of Australia, and standing on your own two feet, in many ways. And but I think Australia needs me back to do the fight for them as well, certainly in the field of Aboriginal recognition in the constitutional level, as well. So all of this plays a big part in my life, my life can't be separated, you know, I having HIV and AIDS is small part of it. But it's a very active part because it makes me aware that I'm a minority within a minority. And I'm also a minority on the spiritual level as well. Although as a believer in reincarnation, and karma, I belong to the great majority of the world who also believe in that. It's just that not many people care to think about us. And I do every day. [01:25:59] And come wait [01:26:01] for my next incarnation. Wherever it will be. [01:26:06] Do you have any preference, [01:26:07] not on this plane, [01:26:10] there are lots of other plans to come back to [01:26:13] the universe is a limitless place. And we never stopped changing as soul, which is eternal. We never die. We're part of the Godhead, part of the universal life force, which is not just this one, tiny universe, the many universes that exist. And [01:26:35] once we identify, [01:26:38] on that superhuman level, which is what the astrophysicists now are getting into science and religion are coming very much together. We are series of vibrations really. And once we identify [01:26:58] that [01:26:59] square soul is that's where we go when we leave. But of course, we've got a juicy in this, this lifetime, to live life as loving as possible, and to do as much as we can to help other people along with that. And that's been my aim. And it's one of the reasons I'm going back to Australia. [01:27:23] I've got work to do over there. [01:27:26] in this field. [01:27:29] Just in the short time we've been talking, I mean, you've you've lived such an extraordinary life. And it's been completely championed [01:27:37] is more to come. [01:27:40] Early beginning of the next stage. But yes, when I was young, I said I had a little thing I said to myself, I want to do everything in life. I remember saying myself to that when I was very young. Now 16 and little boy and Gosford I said, I want to do everything. And really when I look back on the last six, two years or 55 years, I have done a hell of a lot. And I have seen a lot of people come and go. I've refused invitations, you could have left me in different ways. I haven't talked about my relationship with Roy Cohn, in New York. Who was the major character in Angels in America, the lawyer who advised the government merchandise awfully Earth and who died of AIDS himself. He he was offered to me on a plane when I was in New York, he wanted to take me to Acapulco to be his [01:28:40] toy boyfriend, [01:28:43] which I refused the invitation. But see, these things were offered to me. I could have accepted them. He was the most powerful man in America at that stage. And he's dead. Right. And I spent a night with him, where he told me he his deepest secrets. And he was enormously trauma traumatized, ugly little man who happened to have new york by the scruff of the neck. And who came out in some terrible ways in a few store Angels in America, you know, exactly how is portrayed that by [01:29:26] us very good. [01:29:29] So, [01:29:31] you know, I've had a chance to mix it with some of the biggest and best in the world and come through unscathed and realize, you know, I can see the unimportance of so much, and I know where to place my values. And I know what's important. My constant traveling is getting me trimmer. As far as positions go. I'm still carrying a few things, as you see my only personal memorabilia, but my move back to Australia will be hopefully a few boxes and nothing much [01:30:10] more. [01:30:12] They were two names and the email that you sent me that I just wanted. I want to know about before we end and the two names were Nina Simone, you were dancing with an acidic [01:30:25] and Marlena Dietrich, yes, indeed. Well, I mentioned that because they they're two of the great [01:30:31] icons in the various worlds. And, you know, I happen to meet them and but with Nina Simone, it was just that I happened to be in this nightclub alone on the dance floor. And she'd been singing in Sydney that night. I didn't know who she was until somebody told me. And we were dancing with this other black man who was in her entourage on the dance floor. And of course, since then, I'm one of our greatest fans. And I just seem to know that I'm going to bump into people like that it will happen. And it did happen to me. You know, I've met the people I need to meet. When I had no idea that I was going to meet one of the greatest serial artists of the world on his home base Salvador Dali over there are a futile invitation from Christopher issue or to spend a weekend away with him when he was looking for young men. Because I it didn't convert wasn't convenient for me that weekend. And yet I'm a great fan of Christopher issue was writing and I like his spirituality as well. But these were the things that did happen to me. So I have laid a protected and amazing life from the point of view of [01:31:55] meeting [01:31:56] amazing people get in touch with but not totally affected by them to change who I am because basically I'm just a simple little lovely living in Wellington and enjoying the fabulous life that Wellington has offered me [01:32:12] and still live in Marlena Dietrich Marlena yeah Roma later was quite [01:32:19] funny experience because it was it will ever Gardner was had hosting the party at this restaurant that I was the barman at in Don street in London. And she just had her first night on the West End. And I forgot who was living in London, I think at that stage. So they were all buddies. And the restaurant happened to be on by showbiz producer. And so we used to get the top people along there. And it was downstairs, they had the private room downstairs and they had a circular stairway going up and down. And I was bringing the drinks down the circular stay away from upstairs in the bar. And I ever was sitting at the top of the table with Marlena and the table was full of various, you know hangers on mainly powerful men, the smashing of gay people I would imagine. And I remember Marlena ordering a beer. And I ever was keeping quite sober because it was her party she's known to be a drinker. But I'll never forget when the party finished at the end because I wasn't privy to all that conversation. But I was asked to come down to help Marlena climb the stairs on the way out. [01:33:47] And I'll never forget following these legs, these famous legs up this circular stairway with a week DB precariously balanced on her very thin here. And she was pulling herself with a very strong arms up the stairway was later she fell over on the stage in Melbourne that ended her career I [01:34:09] think. But he is it was an interesting little story to see these icons in the flesh. But, you know, that's what you did in the 70s you bumped into these people. I mean, on the throne your life on the stage after meeting him and First Avenue but unfortunately, I was very sad to hear that he embraced early in the in the fight against IZTA. And he took big dose of HT and I'm no doubt that that carried him away. So you know, I do know the secret of living. And it's thinking positively but also making decisions for yourself and realizing that if you do look after yourself, you will survive. But level of spirituality which is the major element in my life today which directs everything I do is without a doubt the reason I'm here today [01:35:14] because I'm being guided

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