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So to start us off, we'll do an introduction round. So name pronouns how you identify If you want to say, um, anything else you wanna add Maybe where you live your age, but you don't have to. It's all up to you. OK, cool. I'll go first. I'm Craig. I am a lesbian, and I'm 37. I also identify as bisexual because I also still have sex with men. But I'm like living this big [00:00:30] lesbian marriage life, so that takes up 99% of my time. So that's why I identify as bisexual lesbian, um, and I I also identify as butch and as non-binary because I think of Butch as a form of non binary gender. And so I use the pronouns he him Because I'm just testifying to my masculinity in that way. Cool. So, um, I'm Sophie. I'm a lesbian. No, um, I use [00:01:00] she. Her pronouns. Um, I'm also desex. Um, So for those of you who might not know what that means, um, it's part of being on the asexuals spectrum. Um, and that I don't experience sexual attraction until I form an emotional bond with someone. Um, I'm 20 years old and I'm currently living in Wellington, um, studying at Vic Uni. So that's me. Uh, um I'm [00:01:30] Karen and II. I You see her pronouns, um, and identify as a lesbian. Um, I'm 46 and I'm from the UK. You probably hear from the UK. So a lot of what I talk about today will probably be about, um, my experience of growing up as a lesbian in the UK. But then also some thoughts About what? That's what it looks like in my mind here in New Zealand as well. So I live in Wellington, and, um, I was invited on this as part of, [00:02:00] um, part of the quarter bananas collective. So what was the lesbian radio show before? So that's just a few things about me. Um, hi. I'm summer. I use she her pronouns, Um, I identify as lesbian, but I also use the term queer it as a yeah. Um, and I'm 16 and I live in Auckland. Um, awesome. Hi. I'm Aria. I use pronouns I identify [00:02:30] as a lesbian, but I also like to use the term because it's cool. Um, I'm 18 and I live in that one. Awesome. Everyone um I forgot to introduce myself. I'm neo I use, or they then pronounce I also identify as a lesbian. And, um so we'll get on to our first question. Um, what was your journey to claiming the term lesbian, And why do you use that term to describe your [00:03:00] identity? Uh, OK, so I sort of like a two step thing. First of all, I'm I'm young and I'm growing up. And when I grow up, even though I'm 37 I feel still quite young. But I'm like, twice the age of most of the other panellists. So when I grew up in New Zealand, it was still, like, not cool to be, well, not even acceptable to be a lesbian or gay or anything like that. They they had legalised homosexuality. Um, but society hadn't really fully kind of normalised it [00:03:30] yet. Um, and I grew up in a bigoted household, so it took me until I was sort of 18, and I fell in love to to be like, Oh my God, I can't pretend that I'm not gay anymore. So that's when I first started identifying as a lesbian. And then, like a decade later, and I started, um, wanting to to have sex with men as well as with women and non-binary folk. I, um I went, Oh, yeah, that's that's important. And and I want to live my life authentically [00:04:00] so I would identify as bisexual as well. But I also am in a lesbian marriage, which is an open marriage. And so then I'm like, this is, like, literally, like, almost full time occupation. I, I So I'm so I'm so seldom bisexual that I'm like I'm lesbian, and I that's important to me. It's like I drink herbal tea all the time. That makes me a lesbian. Nice. So, um oh, God, It's, like, such a long story. So I'm really gonna [00:04:30] try and, like, cut it down. Um, but when I was about eight or nine years old, I think it was, um I was, uh, walking, uh, next to the Nelson airport. And Nelson is where I grew up, Um, with my friend Hope. And we were just, like, talking about how we just preferred women men. Um, and I was like, Yeah, I like I just really relate to this. Um, and, [00:05:00] um, she just turned around and just gave me a high five and said, Welcome to the lesbo club. And, um, that was just like the first instance of where, you know, suddenly there was an option other than heterosexuality. Um, but yeah, Then it took a few years because, um, you know, compulsory heterosexuality and all that. All that fun stuff. [00:05:30] Um, but then it was I mean, once, I kind of started seeing more lesbians. Um, both. Like, uh, fictional. And in real life, um, as I grew up, it was kind of like, Well, this is obviously what I am. Um, It took, I think, a little bit of time to actually accept the word lesbian. Um, because not many people [00:06:00] like around me, like in my friend circle, were using it. Um, the word bisexual was around, like, a lot. Uh, but lesbian was, um mostly, like, a dirty word. Um, and that, you know, it came with its own kind of, um, stereotypes. Um, but then it was like, Yeah, well, I am a lesbian. So, like, I'm gonna be a lesbian capital L kind of situation. Um, and [00:06:30] so I was just like, Yeah, this is This is my label This is what I'm gonna use from now on. Um, that was really interesting to hear Sophie, because there's some similarities in kind of my description as well, or my you know what I was going to talk about? Um, So when I first saw this question, um, what was my journey to claiming the term lesbian? And why do I use that term to identify? I suddenly did have a panic and think, Oh, maybe I'm being a fraud because, um, I kind of thought, actually, my journey [00:07:00] to using the term lesbian is probably is probably still ongoing, actually, um, a little bit similar to what Sophie was saying when I was, I guess, coming out when back in the eighties and early nineties in the UK. I was pretty comfortable that I was attracted to women and found that bit ok, was pretty comfortable with that, and pretty comfortable with talking to people about it, but not the word lesbian. And so for a long time, I and others around me kind [00:07:30] of the friendship group that I would have been in would have used, um, gay and described ourselves as gay women. And that was for quite a number of years, and to the point of probably really, really almost rejecting the term lesbian because it, for some reason, it just felt not comfortable. We weren't hearing that word, uh, talked about very much, Not much visibility around the term, and so almost actively trying to push the word away. Not really kind of wanting to identify with that particular word, but [00:08:00] identifying as, um being attracted to women and that that felt comfortable, but the actual term lesbian didn't. So, um yeah, so I still look at that question and think, Oh, have I been some kind of fraud? Because I think, Oh, as I've become older, I've kind of used the word more and will use it and say now that I identify as a lesbian, But it probably did take quite a long time. So, um, so I find the term really, really interesting because for me it did. And I think for a lot of people, um, certainly [00:08:30] the people I was socialising with, it felt an uncomfortable term. And, um and I still think there's a little bit of that now. So in in certain situations now, certainly a work situation I probably choose to not use the word lesbian and will describe myself as gay instead. So I do think there's a kind of change of the language for me anyway in different situations, because I still feel like if I use the word lesbian, there's often an uncomfortable reaction from other people, Uh, the term not being, [00:09:00] um, people just not being used to it. And I guess some kind of stereotype that goes with it. Um, so for me, the journey is probably ongoing, but definitely as I got older, I identified with the term and the word a lot more than I did when I was younger. So I have a, I think a bit similar, but that it's I'm still something that I'm figuring out. And like, I've realised that I'm the youngest person on this panel, so I still I think I have a while before I figure [00:09:30] out like, Oh, yeah, this is exactly right. Um, but yeah, I guess I would have been maybe 12 ish when I kind of started thinking that it might be a good time for me because I knew that I was attracted to girls. Sorry. Um, a bit, but I hadn't really again. Hadn't heard the word before. Um, so it did take a while to kind of figure that out, and a lot of that [00:10:00] was through, um, the we had it doesn't exist anymore, but we used to have a really good kind of a QS a at school that had a lot of resources that helped me a lot with coming to terms and trying to figure out, um, like, what was the right word to use, So I am still figuring it out. But that's something that helped me become comfortable with using the word they've been up until now. [00:10:30] Well, I don't have the best memory of what sort of prompted me to start questioning, Um, for for a long time, I thought that I only sort of started questioning my sexuality around the start of high school. But then I sort of remembered this time that, um I don't know, I was probably, like, 12 or something like that, but I was at a sleepover with some friends and I came out to them. It wasn't great, but anyway, um and I came out to them as vicarious because that just felt [00:11:00] like a comfortable thing for me to use at that time because I was questioning and I knew that I was probably attracted to women. But, you know, like, um, yeah, so I. I sort of used by or by curious, just sort of for myself. While I was still questioning because it felt like, I don't know, I was honouring my attraction to women without having to sort of commit to, um, a word like lesbian. [00:11:30] That kind of felt a bit scary, you know? Um yeah, II. I identified as bi for, um, quite a few years, and then I went through a few complicated labels, sort of trying to incorporate men into my identity in the smallest way possible. I think one of the labels I used was, um, pan romantic, sexual, gay. And I didn't include lesbian in their identity at all, but, um, yeah. Oh, by the way, Love sexual. I think [00:12:00] it's, um, if I remember was you feel sexual attraction until it's reciprocated. So that was sort of like how my comp it works with men, I guess. Um, yeah. And then I think when I was 17, I was just sitting sitting down and like, actually, I don't think I am attracted to men, and I'm just trying to convince myself that I am because I feel like I should be. [00:12:30] And, um, I don't know if there was really much that convinced me to start using the term lesbian, but I just decided at that moment that I was going to use it, even though it was hard, because it felt like it was a thing that represented me the best. Um, I sort of describe myself as gay a little bit, but I really tried to use lesbian, even though I kind of it did feel like a bit of a dirty word. But, um, I knew that it was It felt right, and I wanted to use it because it's not a dirty word. Um, [00:13:00] yeah, so I've been using that, and it makes me feel proud to be a lesbian. I am using that, and it makes me feel like I'm a part of a a really awesome community. Yeah, and that's me awesome. Some great journeys here, and I think some good points raised that it's for a lot of us. It is still a journey It's still an ongoing thing. And, you know, this could change, or it could stay the same, and I think that's pretty cool. Um, so [00:13:30] I I had a bit of a crisis before I identified as a lesbian. For a few years, I've always been like, Oh, I want to be a lesbian. So bad, Like it just seems so cool. Um, like, I really admire every lesbian as a person. And then I was like, Hang on. I had this moment of Hang on. Why can't I be a lesbian? Um, there are non binary lesbians, So why can't I be one of them? And then I identified as a lesbian. So, um, next question, what are your thoughts on lesbian visibility? [00:14:00] Why is it important? Do you think there is enough of it? Um, for me, this is quite a tricky question. So I'll I'll try to keep it short because I'm not sure what my thoughts are on lesbian visibility and with or whether there's enough of it, II, I would I would just have to acknowledge that we're at a little bit of a difficult junction in history at the moment around. Um, some people trying to kind of ring fence in what being a lesbian is. And so they want lesbian visibility, but only for a specific, [00:14:30] narrow little minority type of lesbian. And I just think if you feel that you are a lesbian, then you're a lesbian and that's that, like full Stop. And also you shouldn't be limited to just that one label. Um, as a lot of, um, other panellists have expressed in myself that there's like you can You're a complex person so you you can be lesbian Plus other stuff. Um, but I think that it's really important that we push back [00:15:00] against that ring fencing of what lesbian is. So I think that progressive lesbian visibility is really important and, like diverse lesbian visibility is really important. And obviously, it sounds like there's still quite a lot of shame for people, Um, that they have to fight in order to claim the term lesbian, Um, and so visibility should hopefully help to counter that as well. And yeah, I just think there's probably people [00:15:30] out there who are perhaps not very political at all, and they just identify as lesbian, and then they get faced with whatever kind of shaming, um, stereotypes and things that society throws at them. So if they do get to see just positive representations of lesbians, um, of all kinds of all different kinds, then that that would be really good for them, I would think. Yeah. And this was a bit of a tricky question for me as well. But, um, when I was reading it, [00:16:00] I got reminded of when I was talking to someone who identified as a lesbian, Um, someone who was quite older than me. Um and she thought that lesbians were a dying breed because she saw the younger generation. Um, and, uh, I guess she she didn't see as many lesbians because, um, there's there's [00:16:30] so many more labels now, I guess, was her kind of stance. And, you know, she saw these like bisexuals and pansexuals. And she was like, But where are all the lesbians? Um, and same thing for, like, people. When I ask them, like, how many lesbians they know? Um they say like, Oh, I don't know any or they say, like Ellen DeGeneres, like, that's like, just like the one lesbian, but that's ever existed. So it's just a DeGeneres. [00:17:00] Um, so I? I don't know. It's an interesting question. Um, I do think they should maybe be a bit more of, um I think good lesbian visibility. Um, because this comes up in a later question, But there are a lot of harmful stereotypes, um, and myths, which just is so wrong. And it's like, this isn't this isn't good for the Like, [00:17:30] I guess, the lesbian image, Um and, yeah. I don't know. A bit of a tricky question for me, I think, Uh, yeah, I guess, um, echoing a bit that the other that creek and Sophie have already talked about In a sense, I think, in the kind of short answer for me to the question of, um, do we think there's enough lesbian Vili Visibility is no. And I think we're you know, certainly the discussion so far is about lesbian via visibility needing [00:18:00] to be much broader than I guess, the stereotypes that may have been we may have got used to over time and in the media and so on, and that maybe that's lesbian visibility. And I know both of you have just kind of alluded to there being maybe thoughts of lesbian visibility needs to be a certain thing. It's a certain look. It's a certain particular group of people. But the fact that we've all most of us have all talked about still the term lesbian still being something that people are still feeling uncomfortable about. [00:18:30] And so I'm a bit I'm quite surprised at that talking as the the oldest lesbian on the group, Um, but and so I did think, Ah, that that must have changed, and I'm sure it has changed. Um, but I'm still hearing people on this panel talk about the uncomfortableness of that word. So I guess in that sense, um, there isn't much lesbian visibility if we're still talking about people on this panel and whoever we're talking to feeling quite uncomfortable about the term, [00:19:00] So I guess definitely feel like, Well, the there there does still need to be more lesbian visibility, whatever that looks like. There's definitely the broadness and the diversity of it. But just the fact that we may be saying, Oh, there's still a slight uncomfortableness about using the term and, um, being open about being a lesbian. Then, um says to me that, yeah, that there certainly does seem to need to be more lesbian visibility, whatever that looks like. [00:19:30] Yeah, I. I agree with a lot of what's just been said, Um, I think it is really important to have that visibility and have, like, people in the media that we can see and identify with, Um, I think that that I am starting to see more of it, but I don't really think there's enough still and part of that, actually something that I was thinking about when I saw this question [00:20:00] is that there's for the amount of, um, representation of like gay couples in the media, that there's still not a lot of like You might see things, um, a lot of representation for other diverse identities. But then there's still not a lot in comparison of lesbians, and it's just, yeah, [00:20:30] it maybe it's related to gender equality as well. But it's just that it's great that we're accepting all of these other identities, but just there's just a little bit of a gap in terms of being a lesbian, and I think it would be great to see more of that. Yeah, I think in terms of representation in media especially. There's a lot of focus on making lesbian representation palatable to others when it's not [00:21:00] our purpose as people to be palatable to up to others. Um, we're diverse people. We're sorry, stutter. We're, um, diverse people individually. And we're a, um, a diverse community together. And I think it's really important that we have accurate representation for, um the intersectionality and everything like that inside the lesbian community. Um, this sort of in terms of TV um, anything [00:21:30] like that. There's a lot of cookie cookie cutter moulds, um, in terms of lesbian relationships. And yeah, I think it would be really, really great to have, um, more diverse representation. Um, and I think that's important. Because when we see ourselves represent, uh, represented, um, around us in life, on TV in terms of celebrities, whatever, um, it's easier to accept them. And [00:22:00] once we're able to accept others, it becomes easy to accept ourselves. So, um, yeah, I think it's really important, and they definitely should be a bit more. Wow, just some amazing points from everyone. I. I definitely agree that we need not only more, um, representation, but more positive representation. So stuff where we're not the lesbian on screen isn't cheating on people. They're not, um, they don't die. In the end, they're not a terrible person. Just [00:22:30] those sorts of things. Um, next question is, are there any myths or stereotypes about being a lesbian that you'd like to bust? So we've touched on this a little bit, but, um, if you'd like to go more in depth, Um well, my my own experience, I guess it's kind of an offshoot of being a lesbian is being butch. So it's more of a butch gender stereotype. But it is often very closely bound up with a lesbian stereotype, because [00:23:00] I guess a lot of stereotypical lesbians are butchers. Maybe so there's that that not all lesbians are. But, um, and and but then also just like that, Butch people are not kind of like aggressive. They don't always take the traditional man role in a for example, a butch family relationship. Um, and I would yeah, like I'm really soft. I'm really submissive. I'd really love to see, like that whole stereotype [00:23:30] that butch as a gender means any one particular thing kind of busted, like the idea that any like that any gender has to do any particular thing to be that gender. That would be really great to be busted. So just Yeah, but softness is a thing, and Bush submission sexually is a thing. And, yeah, that's all from me. I mean, there's just so many myths and stereotypes that I just think need to be [00:24:00] because, like, they, I mean, if that if you are researching into being a lesbian and you find all of these, um, portrayals of lesbians in a certain way and you know they have all these stereotypes, it can be really harmful, because then you think that you need to be this certain way, um, in order to actually be like a lesbian and when it's just not true. Um, something I would really like to be busted personally. Is this this whole idea? [00:24:30] That seems to be, um, like sis girls, like all the lesbians ever in the world are pursuing them, and they want to convert them to lesbianism. And it's like it's like, Oh, my God. And they, like all we want to do is just, like have sex with them. And it's like also like as a demisexual lesbian, like I sometimes don't even want to have sex with, like, other lesbians, like anyone, like, leave one with, like, straight girls like Oh, [00:25:00] but yeah, that's just like for me, Like, definitely, like, not sexualizing lesbians and not, um, fetishizing lesbians And just like, taking out that whole aspect of it. Yeah, um, I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. I guess for me, particularly the, uh, some of the stereotypes that go with, um, being particularly butch, um, it's gonna be a constant source of disappointment for me [00:25:30] that I can't use power tools. I just thought it would happen naturally. And it never had. So those kind of but those kind of, um, stereotypes. Yeah, they, um, are frustrating. Uh, and it'd be great to that'll be my stereotypes to bust. Yeah, Yeah, I'm just going off what Sophie said about, like, losing representation and then thinking that you need to be a certain way that you see portrayed. I think that can also be harmful in that [00:26:00] if you're still coming to terms with your identity and, you know, think wondering whether you are a lesbian or whether that's the right term. If you see the very stereotypical portrayal, and that's not how you act. Then it can be quite invalidating to see that like, Oh, I don't act that way. Therefore, I can't use the term lesbian. Um, and that can be, you know, quite harmful for someone who's figuring [00:26:30] out their identity, if that's all they see. So I think that's yeah, that's something that should change. Um, yeah. So my first thought for this one was actually quite similar to creeks. Um, and it was that not every single lesbian relationship, um, is but for them or for Butch and yeah, because everyone's identity and everyone's presentation in terms of those things [00:27:00] are different. And, um, there isn't any certain mould that, um, a lesbian or a lesbian relationship should be should be fitting into or should have to fit into. Yeah, and, um really, on what some said exactly. Um, if If all you see, um of the community is I don't know. Um but just who can use power tools or people who know everything about astrology and you don't know things [00:27:30] like that or you don't enjoy things like that. It can feel very invalidating, like I can't be a lesbian because I can't use a power tool. And I don't know things about astrology. 00, dear. Um, when in reality it's, um the whole community is this big community of lots of different people who enjoy doing lots of different things and present in lots of different ways and identify in lots of different ways. And, um, it can take a while to find exactly where you fit there. But, um, if if you [00:28:00] feel like you need to or you feel like, um, identifying as a lesbian fits you, then it does and you belong in the community. And it's really hard to figure that out when there are so many stereotypes, sort of running us down. And, um, the other factor that a lot of female and non-binary sexuality is, um, assumed to be catered to men. So it's it's very, um, it can be hard to discover that you are a lesbian when, [00:28:30] um when you realise that Oh, my goodness, my sexuality isn't about men. For the most part, Um, yeah, I don't know if that made sense, but that's me. Definitely made sense. Well said, um I know, I've said this, like, three times already. But so many great points here, Um, 11 stereotype that hasn't been brought up. That's, um a very recent one is the idea of a useless lesbian. [00:29:00] Like if another lesbian called me that, um, in a joking way, maybe I'd be OK with it. But, like, if a if, like, a non lesbian called me that I'd be like, Excuse me, but yeah, I think it's a pretty the idea that all lesbians are bad at romance. I think it's a bit of a upsetting one. Um, OK, uh, do you have any favourite lesbian representation in media or lesbian icons? I just like to say I'm sorry. [00:29:30] I'm sorry to hear that about useless lesbians. That's brand new to me. I've never heard that before, And I'm I'm sorry that it's coming at you. Younger ones. Um, what a load of shit. Um, favourite. Sorry. Favourite lesbian representation in media or lesbian icons. That's the question, isn't it? Um, yeah. I really loved the L word generation Q. I don't know if people have seen that, um, back in my day, we actually liked the L word as well, But if we looked [00:30:00] at it now I'd be like, No, it's problematic in all kinds of ways, but the L word generation Q um, they've obviously made a special effort to include, like, people of colour, uh, trans lesbians, trans people who are not lesbians, just like more broader queer identities that aren't often seen so much in mainstream television. There's butch lesbians, which notably there were not that many butch lesbians in the original L word, Um, and also on Neon TV. Same same whatever you call it. [00:30:30] Platform thing is, um, a show called Work in Progress, which is just Yeah, it's about this very, very butch dyke who then kind of gets like, sideswiped by falling in love with a young trans man and then their relationship. And also she has O CD. So it's just funny, like it's a great show, but it makes me so mad. She's terrible as well. I don't necessarily recommend it, but yeah, I've [00:31:00] I've found that on Neon TV. There are some great representations, I think, in terms of favourite lesbian representation in media, um I mean, I like growing up. I had quite a few. Um, but then a lot of them died and got killed off. So, like, yeah, which is not a great thing to see. So I'm not gonna just mention any of them, because, yeah, it hurts when you identify with someone [00:31:30] or with their character so much and then, you know, and especially when you're young and they kind of become, like a lifeline, and then they just die. And that's just gone from your life. It's just it's Yeah, it's really painful. But, um, I will stay with positivity here. Um, currently, um, I don't know if any of you watch it, but, um, gentleman Jack is the one that I am really, really loving. Um, it's about Anne [00:32:00] Lister who is just iconic in every single way possible. Um, and it's set in, like, 18. Uh, I think it starts in 18. 49 that it starts. Um, so it's, like, very much, um, I think affirming to, you know, go back that far. And there was this, um, this this just absolute lesbian. Just an absolute icon. [00:32:30] Um, what's it streaming on? Um, what do I what I use, like my flatmates boss's thing to watch it, which is called Plex, but, um I'll see if I can find it. Uh, it might be on light box or something like that. I will. I will get back to you on that. Um, but, uh, and in terms of lesbian icons, um um, And, [00:33:00] um, I also like very much. This isn't, like, confirmed or whatever, but like, um, if any of you know the goddess Artemis, Um, like, I definitely read her as a lesbian. Um, so, yeah, like, Oh, and like, Haley kioko, um, I don't know. Yeah, people know her, but yeah, I just Yeah, I just like love lesbians. [00:33:30] Um, that's hard to follow Sophie when she just ended saying, I just love lesbian. Where do I go from there? Um, yeah, I'll just to mention, I guess to again speaking as a, um, slightly older lesbian on the panel. The kind of the people that we sometimes refer to, but stereotypically like Ellen and like Katie Lang. And I just mentioned because actually, at the time they were quite mind blowing when there were not many lesbian representations around. And, [00:34:00] um, so for me that there is people now that have kind of taken on a whole other persona and that they're often used quite negatively and and things like that. But actually at the time, especially someone like Ellen where we were kind of watching it, thinking I think she might be a lesbian. But at that point, she hadn't come out. And then for Katie Lang to then, you know, be so kind of out there and looking different and being so open, they were quite mind blowing at that point that that they that they would be there. And, you know, I'm sure for hundreds and thousands of people, [00:34:30] they were something to hang it on and think, Oh, OK, the lesbians are out there. So, um, I guess for me, though, you know, those kind of older, um, les icons kind of thing would be pretty significant. Um, And right now, um oh, the L word creek. I'll need to watch the new L word. Because when the L word first came out I I did not take it because we were me and my friends would watch it and think I don't actually relate to this. And, um [00:35:00] and, uh and somehow it became quite negative. It was like, Oh, I'm not living that life. And so I'm not cool enough. And I know the word is huge, and people love it. Um, but I have heard the new one is quite different. So, um, I might try that, and I recommended it, but more like, right now, I'm really loving some of the comedians. Really? Um, so people like Hannah Gadsby and kind of what they're doing, I guess, for just being able to talk about, um, lesbian culture and again just that visibility. So those would be a few [00:35:30] kind of thoughts for me. Really? OK, well, yeah, I'm not really sure about, like, icons. Exactly. But I do have, like, definitely places where I've seen lesbians just like out. Amazing. I ha ha Haley K, Of course. Um, there's a few I'm drawing a bit of a blank, but just lesbian musicians in general, it's just great to like when [00:36:00] you're listening to a song and it's a woman thinking about another woman, It's just it's just a great feeling. Um, yeah, I Oh, yes. King Princess? Yes, definitely. Um physio Oh, I just thinking about this. It's just great that there's more and more that there's so many. Yeah, so Yes. Please be musicians. [00:36:30] All of the ones in the comments absolutely love them. Great. Yeah. Um wow. Where do I start? Um, I definitely agree with Sophie that it's awesome to see, um, lesbian lesbian representation. That's been around for a long time. Like literally two days ago. I think I went on a research binge of, um, like, um, letters that women had written [00:37:00] other women. And I went down a bit of a rabbit hole. Sort of reading things that, like, um Radliff Hall, Emily, Dick Dickinson, Virginia Woolf. People like that had written their their lovers. And that was really nice to see, um, sort of these things that are 100 or more years old that actually kind of almost represent similar experiences to me. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I feel so validated. Um, so also great. We love definitely agree on art as well. Um [00:37:30] um, in terms of TV shows, um, and movies I'm not I'm not sure I always have a bone to pick with every single item of representation that I see. I'll find something wrong with it, just no matter what it is. But, um, I think I used to watch Supergirl, and I quite liked, um, Alex Danvers story on that. I don't know if anyone's seen it. I haven't watched it in a while, so I don't actually know how it turned out, but, um, yeah, that was [00:38:00] cool. Um, and also, everything sucks on Netflix. It's It's sad. Um, but it's It's I liked it. Yeah, um, and also Collette, um, that movie with, um, Kiera Knightley in it. Um, just a warning for that one is a bit sexual, but, um, it was It was It was a good one. I liked it. Um, I think at this point, my girlfriend would want to plug [00:38:30] Steven Universe. I don't watch it, but, um, it's apparently good, and yeah, I definitely agree with the musicians I personally love King Princess. And also, um, pussy riot in terms of some sort of, you know, angry, lesbian, um, singing, you know, that's nice to see. Um, yeah, that's really what I would say. Lots of great people to check out now on my list. [00:39:00] And can I, um, quickly just like, add something? Sorry. Like, real quick. I just want to show everyone my shirt. I've seen this and I love it. Got all of, um, like ships on it of, like, queer women. They've got, like, Clark. Alexa from the 100 Did not watch that be Lauren from law girl Nicole and Waverly from Earth and a from from black Elena. And from one day at a time, David and saw from, um super girl like aria [00:39:30] mentioned Carmela and Laura, which is Carmela, the Web series about a lesbian vampire. If any of you are into that, um, Kelly and Arizona from Grey's Anatomy Sarah and Ava from Legends of Tomorrow Rot and Shaw from personal interest Alex and Piper from orange is the new black emmaline. And Kate from everything sucks I can't read that. Oh, I'm Anita and Nomi from, um which, uh, Nomi is a Trans woman and Ana from the bold type [00:40:00] and Vivian from everyone but you and Willow and Tara from both the Vampire Slayer. So there's more. Just another great list. So many good things to check out. Coming um honestly, anything. I just I have a lot of lesbian icon characters that aren't actually lesbians. I just decide they are randomly because I want them to be Um, next question is, are there any symbols that have been important [00:40:30] to you as a lesbian? Um, I Well, I When I look back at my childhood photos, I'm like there's at least two of my class photos I'm wearing basically the trans flag, which hadn't even been invented yet at that stage. So I, I really love pink and blue and white together. Um, I used to really actually love the pink Triangle like I think I like pink and I like triangles. But today, unfortunately, it's kind of been sullied by like it. It's it's become perhaps a symbol that, [00:41:00] um, used by those like Ring fence, fence it off like the lesbian police who don't want anyone to be a lesbian. They just only want the people that they've given permits to to be lesbians. And so it's kind of now, maybe more of a dangerous symbol. Um, and it's really sad. I missed that just being kind of like a cool dyke symbol. So that's it, really. That's all I got to say. I think the first thing I really identified with was like the rainbow flag, [00:41:30] Um, and like rainbows in General, I was like, Oh, this is gay now, Like cool. Um, And then I found out that there was a lesbian flag, and I was like, Oh, cool. What's this about? And then I found out that the lesbian flag that I saw, uh, which is, like, um, I don't know if everybody here knows that, like the lipstick lesbian flag. Um, it originally had, um, like, the lipstick mark in the corner. Um, and it's done in shades of, um, like red, pink [00:42:00] and white. Um, that was made by probably I would I like I'd say that she would be a member of the lesbian police. Probably. Um, so it's not really representative of our, um, of, like, our entire community. Um, so then I found out about the community lesbian flag, which is much more wholesome. Um, it's got, like, the orange in it as well as like, um, shades of pink. Um, so I think [00:42:30] I probably identify with that one a bit more now, but like rainbows is definitely still like very much like I play a starring role in, like, my decor and and like, the badges and pins I have and stuff like that. Um something else, which also this is a bit sad, actually, like all the I think of. Like, they've all been, like, a bit co-opted. But, um, the LA like the, um, double bladed battle. Um, [00:43:00] I think that's really cool. Um, and then violets. Um, because, um yeah, like from a line in a Sao poem. Um, like, her brow was adorned with violets or something like that. So it became a thing for like, if you, um, like like a woman, you would give her violets, Um, and also lavender. Um, this [00:43:30] one is a bit more like obscure, but, um, back when, like, the red scare was happening in America, Um, and everybody was like, Oh, communism, um, lesser known as the lavender Scare, where it was like the whole kind of I guess, thinking behind it was that gay people were more likely to be communists because they could be blackmailed and therefore could be, um, you know, secret agents and stuff like that. [00:44:00] So, um uh, there's, like, this kind of been reclaimed, I guess. Like the term lavender menace. If any of you have ever heard about that or seen it, so yeah, those are my symbols, I think, um, yeah, I think, um, I found this one quite hard to think about. I guess I then probably thought I actually don't have many particular, um, lesbian symbols that I've ever thought about or identified with. Um, probably [00:44:30] because, um, it's been I've ended up kind of identify more with the rainbow. Kind of, um, images and symbols and things like that. Um, and maybe just kind of in my thinking about this question, it made me think, Oh, I wonder if that's part of the kind of almost wanting to stand a push away the lesbian part sometimes. Just the terminology. And like, over time, I just wonder if that's why I'm not hooked into lesbian symbols over time. Um, but yeah. So for me, that I I found that quite a tricky [00:45:00] question. And, yeah, nothing specific to kind of add to that really other than feeling like it's kind of been overtaken with the more of the rainbow imagery and more of the kind of broad gay community imagery than specifically lesbian. Yeah, I kind of agree there I. I mean, I'm aware of the lesbian symbols, but I generally prefer the ones, like just rainbows in general, that encompass the whole rainbow community. I think part of that is because [00:45:30] I don't have a lot of other like people close to me who are lesbians. But I do know a few who are, um, identify with other terms that fit under the rainbow umbrella. So I I like more the rainbow flag and rainbow ribbons and things like that because it's kind of a reminder that, like lesbian is an identity. But then it also fits into this whole big range of identities, and it makes me feel connected to [00:46:00] those other people, which I think is quite nice. Um, personally I. I do like the rainbow things, but I also, um, quite like the things that are more specific to lesbian and or and or other women loving women identities. Um, because it feels more personal to me. Um, it makes me feel presented because it is Oh, sorry. Represented because it is, um, accurate accurately representing me and who [00:46:30] I'm attracted to. How I identify? Um, yeah, if that makes sense. Um, I, I quite like the violet as well. That one. That one is a good one. and also, um, another line from a Saffo poem. It's not really a symbol, but just the term like girl sweet voice. It just resonates with me. I like it. Um, and yeah, in terms of the flags. [00:47:00] Um, I really like the orange and the pink one. that one feels feels really, really true to sort of my personal definition and understanding of being a lesbian. Um, just to clarify the one I have here, it doesn't have the lipstick mark on it. This was a gift from a very well mean friend. And I do I do kind of identify with that one as well, but I do prefer the, um, the one with the orange. Yeah. No lipstick marks here. Yeah, that's probably all I say. [00:47:30] Some some great points. I. I also agree I don't really relate to some of the lesbian symbols because I'm pretty new to identifying as a lesbian, so I'm still sort of getting used to that. Um does anyone have any? There you go. There's the quote. Sweet mother. I cannot. There's a good yeah, sweet mother. I cannot weave Aphrodites struck me with longing for a girl by a relate Big, big time. Um, does anyone have any questions for this wonderful panel of [00:48:00] lesbians that you have at your disposal to answer some questions? What's everyone slash anyone reading? Right now I am reading I'm Just About Finished, a book by Albert Wint, who's a New Zealand Samoan author, and it's called The Adventures of Vela. And it's been a really, really amazing, um, queer like pan queer kind of book. Uh, he just traverses. It's [00:48:30] an epic poem, so he like, It's not my favourite format of book. I prefer prose, but it's an epic poem. And, um, he just traverses the whole entire history of, um, both gender and sexuality from a Pacifica specifically, from a Samoan perspective, through through the story of who's a chronicler of like the Samoan gods and everything. And the goddess is presented, um, in a very [00:49:00] lesbian way. Although the word lesbian, I think it might be used once in the book, but he sort of steers clear of European kinds of labels for things most for the most part. But she's very recognisable, or she would I think she would be very recognisable, um, to to as well as to someone as a, um, queer female character. And yeah, just It's just full of queer characters, which is, um, it doesn't mention that on the back of the [00:49:30] book. So that wasn't why I started reading it When I picked it up. I was just like, Oh, yeah, Sounds interesting. I'll give it a go, and it's just like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why isn't this book famous and well known? Yeah. So I really recommend it. Yeah, Anything I'm reading, like I read these days, it's just uni work. So I have nothing to like, add like, maybe like the chapter of, like, issues with political theory on gender, like you. Maybe I could recommend that, but yeah, it's like I'm sad because I didn't [00:50:00] get to bring any of my book collection with me when I moved to Wellington. So they're all back in Nelson. 00, maybe fan fiction. There we go, accessible on the Internet, easily, like run shots. Or, like you can read like multi chapters. And you just like Chuck in a pairing and just go from there. So, um well, it's not really a lesbian book per se, but I'm I'm reading. Um the Hippopotamus by [00:50:30] Stephen Fry. It's all right, Um, but wouldn't wouldn't entirely recommend it. Um, other than that sort of dipping in and out of poetry books that are in my collection. You know, um and then after after I'm finished with that, I've got a book that's been sitting on my bookshelf for a while that I found at, like, a local sort of Higgins Higgins said second hand bookstore, um, called women on women three. I don't know if it will be any good, and I can't [00:51:00] remember who it's by, but, um, yeah, it's like a collection of lesbian and short stories. Yeah. I mean, yeah, this isn't a lesbian book either, but I just started reading Call me by your name. Um, because it's been recommended by quite a few people. And so, yeah, I don't have anything to say about it yet, but I'm hoping that it'll be quite good. I'm not reading it currently, but I have this book called Lesbian Studies in A [00:51:30] and I can't wait to read it. It sounds very interesting. Awesome. Well, thank you everyone for coming. Um, I think there's been some really great points and discussions talked about here. Um, big round of applause for our lovely panel of lesbians. Thanks, Aria. Thanks, Karen. Thanks, Sophie. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. That's great. Let's go. Lesbians, indeed.
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