The title of this recording is "Bill Logan - historic convictions". It is described as: Bill Logan talks to Bryan Crump about the campaign to expunge convictions for consensual homosexual activity prior to homosexual law reform in 1986. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 28th June 2017. Bill Logan is being interviewed by Bryan Crump.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: Bill Logan talks to Bryan Crump about the campaign to expunge convictions for consensual homosexual activity prior to homosexual law reform in 1986. The content in the recording covers the decades 1970s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: In an insightful interview with Bryan Crump, recorded on June 28, 2017, in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand, activist Bill Logan discusses the efforts to expunge convictions for consensual homosexual activities pre-dating the Homosexual Law Reform in 1986. With no reliable statistics on the number of individuals convicted, Bill Logan highlights the vast uncertainty surrounding the count of affected individuals. Logan recounts the prevalent police raids on gay venues, even into the 1980s, and the lasting scars of shame and marginalization faced by those who were prosecuted. Logan notes instances, such as a 1981 raid on a sauna, where advice to refrain from self-incrimination prevented subsequent legal action. Acknowledging the damage caused to the lives of the prosecuted, Logan emphasizes society’s considerable debt to them. The interview touches upon not only the impact on their careers and personal relationships but also the struggle to rebuild their lives. With legislation proposed to allow individuals to apply for the expunction of these historic convictions, Logan suggests that the justice system's simple process might estimate around a thousand cases possible for expunction. Nonetheless, Logan voices skepticism about the number of individuals who would seek to apply, wary of the emotional turmoil of revisiting such painful memories. The conversation then turns towards the lack of substantial reparations or official apologies for the harm done with no such efforts being made since the law change 31 years back. Logan further argues for the dignity and small measure of justice that monetary compensation could signify, notwithstanding the impracticalities and potential unwillingness of those involved to confront the past. In the closing remarks, Logan, now a counsellor, reflects on the current state of LGBT+ discrimination and the familial challenges faced by young queer individuals. Logan notes the saddened aftermath and societal healing still lacking three decades after the legislative victory of 1986 that aimed to put an end to sanctioned discrimination against homosexual men. The interview illuminates the extensive work yet required to address the repercussions of historic injustices endured by the LGBTQ+ community. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  31 years ago, Bill Logan was one of the lead activists campaigning for homosexual law reform, a campaign which was ultimately successful. Now he's involved in a new campaign of sorts to expunge the convictions for homosexual activity under the old law. From the criminal record, Bill is on the line now. Welcome to the show. Nice to have you on. How many men were convicted? As far as you know, of gay [00:00:30] sex under the old law before it changed in 1986. We really have no idea. Um, I don't think anyone's ever had any idea. Uh, it's just one of those things that's impossible to to figure out how many? So again, we don't know how many men went to jail. These are figures which were were never, never kept at the at the time they had. They had sort of how [00:01:00] many people were in this jail or that jail in certain years and so on. Um, but, um, the the the figures weren't ever sorted out Very well. Uh, and, uh, of course, in the in the more recent years, not so many people were sent to jail, but but, um uh, fined and, um, simply shamed and prosecuted. Um, the publicity was as bad as anything. [00:01:30] Bill, do you know when the last conviction was under the under the old law? No, but there were There were convictions very, very late in the piece. Uh, there were raids of gay places of resort saunas and things like that right through into the eighties. Really? I know of people who were, um, convicted of things, uh, [00:02:00] in the in the early eighties. What? The cops raiding gay venues. You're under arrest. Yep. Seems rather bizarre now, doesn't it? It's weird. Uh, it's and even at the time, people who liberal people just thought this is mad. But, um, it was a way of having some entertainment. And if things were quiet at the police station, [00:02:30] we don't know if any men were in prison in 1986 there wouldn't have been, But lives had already been wrecked. The The thing is, of course, that the shame involved for people was just enormous. And people I know of who were who were prosecuted who were mostly by the time I knew them. [00:03:00] Old men already. Uh, were you hiding? Um, very, very quiet. in their lives had marginal existences Sometimes. Did you know of people who got caught up in some of those raids in the eighties? In the eighties? Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't know if anyone who was prosecuted [00:03:30] in the eighties, but, um the the, um Wakefield sauna. I think it was called the Sun Sauna at the time. I can't remember. They changed the name at one point, um, was, um uh, there was a raid in the in the I think 1980 one must have been, um and, er someone actually rang me from the sauna, saying, [00:04:00] this is what was happening. And, uh, I just said to tell everyone Look, don't tell the police anything about what you were doing. You don't have to admit to anything. And I don't think they had any prosecutions because no one was caught in any position which was too compromised. They weren't caught having sex. In other words, that's right. Yeah, but, [00:04:30] um, it would have been very easy if anyone had been caught having sex to, uh, prosecute them, and And if they had admitted having sex, they would have been prosecuted. Did the police take a whole lot of blokes down to the station, which is just around the down around the corner anyway. Yeah. Did you speak to officers? Because you're you're a lawyer? No, [00:05:00] no, I'm not a lawyer. No, I didn't speak, I think I I can't even remember. I think I probably gave the fellow who rang me. I mean, I rang a lawyer. Yes, I rang. A lawyer asked them to go round. It's so interesting. It was just strange to think that the cops must have been just Yeah, incredibly bored. An incredibly quiet night in Wellington. And [00:05:30] And it made them feel big and manly and, you know, But, you know, some of those guys were terrified and and they would have got home three hours late. And, you know, some of them might have been married or living double lives. Men dead, some dead. Yeah. So them or [00:06:00] their mothers would have been worried about them if they were. They were teenagers or whatever. Um, all sorts of stories there. I could ask this next question Two ways. The first way is to say, Why are you involved in expunging people from the criminal record now the other way of asking that question is, are you a bit disappointed? It's taken so long for a bill to reach Parliament that addresses this? [00:06:30] Well, I, I think these are people who are owed a hell of a lot by society. Um, they These are people whose lives were wrecked, essentially, who who didn't have the careers they normally would have wanted, and or it could have been reasonably expected. Um, who Who? Who lost jobs, who lost family connections? Uh, [00:07:00] who lost friends who lost friendship networks and who in who who lost the self confidence to rebuild their lives after what was a complete disaster. Uh, and so I think we owe them a hell of a lot. Uh, the pardons, the least that can be done. Actually, no. Um, of course, it should have been done ages ago. Uh, and [00:07:30] of course, a lot more than that should be done. But in the real world, I don't suppose you can expect much more. What's proposed under the legislation that's currently gone to the house, gone to parliament. Well, it allows you to make an application, um, to the the chief of the Ministry of Justice, who can make a decision that [00:08:00] if this had been dealt with under the current law, you wouldn't have been found guilty. You wouldn't. There wouldn't have been a crime under the current law. And in that, if, if that was the case, your your your your Your conviction is expunged. Um, and it's it's not a very elaborate process. I suspect you just have to write a letter. Uh, and [00:08:30] some bureaucrat will be given the chance of looking into it and make a recommendation to the secretary of justice. Um, so it's a fairly simple process, I think, as far as I can tell from what the Justice Ministry is saying, its estimates are that maybe there are 1000 men or they're about who could qualify. That's simply a guess. No one knows. Um, I suppose it's a good guess, but I really don't think there's much [00:09:00] evidence and I don't I. I personally don't think many people are going to apply because it only it only kind of and brings it all up again and brings out the what was a a horrible episode in someone's life. But it does. It does, even if someone doesn't apply for this it It it makes it makes it possible. And it must be a bit of a load off [00:09:30] the mind of someone for whom this has happened. Do you think it's the right way, or is it enough in terms? If And and we have to assume that it's passed by Parliament. If it is legislation in its current form, do you think it does enough to address what happened? I mean, it's certainly not enough. Uh, but it's a gesture. Um what? What? What can be enough If someone's life has been wrecked [00:10:00] and and and and in in most cases, there's been huge damage to these lives, Um, I don't suppose in all cases it's been wrecked. Some people have gone on to lead very valuable lives in their own terms and in terms of the people around them. But in many cases, been huge damage to these lives. And in some cases, you chaotic damage. Um, [00:10:30] you know what? What? How can you How can you How can you pay back for that? What can you do to a tone for that kind of Has there ever been because I don't think there has been. You would know if there had been any official apology ever. Nope. Would that help, though? Well, everything. [00:11:00] Everything helps, and and it it it does depend on on the sense of the sense of meaning behind it. You know of where it comes from and the sense of OO of of authenticity that that lies behind the apology. Um, [00:11:30] you know, But the fact is that the bunch of thugs who, uh, uh, go in like, los into a a AAA gay venue and and and have fun, you know, wrecking people's lives. Some of them, of course, have no gone elsewhere. But some of them are now [00:12:00] leading the police, and they're not going to. They're not going to apologise. There's no way they can apologise. Well, I guess is there can they? I mean, anyone could apologise. Anyone could acknowledge that they got it wrong in the past, and and in a way, it's the police who were the vehicle through which society acted. Um, [00:12:30] and it's, uh, it's it's them who, who, in a way, bear the brunt of of society's responsibility. Um, for a lot of the stuff. It's interesting compensation argument now, to some extent, [00:13:00] because I was thinking of those who got caught up in the whole anti gay thing who I don't think were convicted of anything. And it was just through. I'm thinking of Colin Moyle. Now you can you remember better than me? Maybe Colin Moy, who was a labour politician in the 19 seventies who was smeared for, um by for being gay. And I don't think he was ever prosecuted. No, but yet I mean that [00:13:30] effect. He was at one point seen as being a potential labour leader When the affair blew up in the media. That was it for his political. He did get end up in Parliament as the minister of agriculture in the 84 Labour government. He was never the same. He he he he he he never had the same authority, the never the same kind of compelling potential leader that he had been. Muldoon used [00:14:00] an anti gay slur to really destroy him. So how does one compensate somebody like that? You can't really, can you? But you could compensate those who have been convicted. Is it worth? Because I know that Bill English has said as as far as he's concerned, we're not going to compensate people for this. I think I think I think some monetary compensation would be appropriate. [00:14:30] Um, how you would I mean, anything would be a gesture and how you would arrange it. I don't know. It would probably have to be a set sum. Um, perhaps you could set up a a small commission and say, uh and and get a variable sum depending on on a number of criteria, and it could be assessed. Ah, [00:15:00] they don't want to open up. What would be a slightly complicated process. I actually don't think there'd be all that many people who would Who would want to go there because of the because I don't think there will be many people who who ask for, uh, uh a pardon for the same reasons people don't want to open it up, but I fear [00:15:30] that it'd just be too many people, Too much work, too much money. And, um, when you when you look back Now it's 31 years since the law was changed, and that was seen as as a as a great victory. Uh, for I think, for all liberal activists, maybe I think every for anyone who believed in human rights, really in 1986. [00:16:00] But I still hear quite a lot of sadness in your voice, Bill. Well, it was, um I think it was an amazing time. And it was wonderful to be on on, uh, the winning side. It would have been terrible if we hadn't won, but, um, there was also, you know, we were fighting against a real hurt, [00:16:30] Uh, and the hurt just doesn't go away if the hurt was there, Um, the there are There are a lot of people whose hurt was so much that they couldn't stand it. And and and, you know, there were people who suicidal, and there are still people who can't cope. Uh, and [00:17:00] I I'm a counsellor. Now. I come across kids who come from quite liberal families whose families wouldn't like the idea of discrimination in the workplace that can't cope with their own kids being gay and, uh, certainly can't cope with their kid [00:17:30] thing. Trends and people. Kids getting kicked out of home when they're 16 years old, 15 years old even. Why do you think that is now? Now, 31 years later, Bill II, I think people a very, very slow to escape [00:18:00] the straitjacket of, uh, you know, these rigid gender. They're afraid, aren't they? It's fear, don't you think? Fear of of your kid not being something. But I think in the end it's It's a fear that drives parents if they end up making that kind of mistake. But the kids kicked out of home. You can guarantee that they'll [00:18:30] at least go through a period of suicidality every time. And if they get through that, they're still going to then get to get through some bitterness. Now the parents will cope eventually, you know, give them a year, two years. They'll they'll in most cases come around. But that's a terrible thing to put the 16 [00:19:00] year old true. Yeah, and it would save a lot of time and angst that they didn't take so long. And life. Bill, It's been great talking with you. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you, Brian Bill Logan, gay activist talking about legislation which will, if it's passed, expunge or at least [00:19:30] allow men who were convicted of homosexual activity before the law change of 1986 to apply to have their criminal conviction expunged from the criminal record. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1970s ; 1980s ; 2010s ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Bill English ; Bill Logan ; Bryan Crump ; Canada ; Criminal Records (Expungement of Convictions for Historical Homosexual Offences) Act 2018 ; Historic Convictions ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986) ; Ministry of Justice ; People ; Stuff ; Wellington ; apology ; arrest ; authenticity ; bear ; career ; celebration ; change ; compensation ; compromise ; concealed conviction ; confidence ; connections ; convictions ; crime ; criminal record ; discrimination ; entertainment ; external resource ; family ; fear ; friends ; fun ; gay ; gender ; government ; hell ; hiding ; homosexual ; homosexual law reform ; human rights ; justice ; kicked out ; knowledge ; law ; lawyer ; legislation ; letter ; media ; other ; parents ; persona ; petition on historic convictions ; police ; prison ; raids ; saunas ; self confidence ; sex ; shame ; suicide ; time ; venues ; video ; voice ; work ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/rnz_bill_logan_historic_convictions.html. Bill Logan also features audibly in the following recordings: "Bill Logan profile", "25th anniversary panel discussion on homosexual law reform", "Johnny Croskery tribute", "Rally for Marriage Equality", "Fighting Homophobia - Marriage Equality Conference", "The Legislative Process", "Gay Liberation Movement - Marriage Equality Conference", "Participant Reaction - Marriage Equality Conference", "Session 11 - Beyond conference", "Session 10 - Beyond conference", "Rainbow Pride Community Honours (2015) - Part 2", "Bill Logan - early years of HIV AIDS in Wellington", "Bill Logan - homosexual law reform", "Flashback to homosexual law reform", "Insight: Gay Rights Beyond Marriage", "Ideas: 25th anniversary of homosexual law reform", "International AIDS Candlelight Memorial (2019)", "Rally for Trans Rights (15 July 2021)", "Our Forgotten Epidemic. Part Six - Our future is our past", "Our Forgotten Epidemic. Part Three - our communities take action", "Our Forgotten Epidemic. Part One - an epidemic arrives", "Our Forgotten Epidemic - trailer", "Presentations - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt Display" and "Rally for Trans acceptance and reproductive rights". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.