The title of this recording is "Des and John - Queer History in the Making". It is described as: An interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff, recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 12th September 2015. This is an interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff. The interviewer is Gareth Watkins. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 9 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: An interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff, recorded during the community event Queer History in the Making. Des and John were one of the first couples in New Zealand to have a civil union in 2005. They subsequently married in 2015. The content in the recording covers the decades 1980s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: This abstract summarizes an interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff, recorded on September 12, 2015, during the community event "Queer History in the Making." The discussion reflects on significant aspects of the LGBTQ+ community's history and its struggles for visibility and equality from the 1980s to the 2010s in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand. Des Smith and John Jolliff, notable for being one of the first couples in New Zealand to enter into a civil union in 2005 and later marry in 2015, share their experiences and perspectives on the evolving social landscape for queer individuals. They recount the importance of visibility in the fight for acceptance, referencing the room they are in, adorned with posters and magazines that document the community's past - including the challenges posed by HIV discrimination. The couple stresses the enduring relevance of vigilance and visibility, highlighting how public awareness events and the broader historical context serve as reminders of the persistent need for advocacy. Despite societal advances, they touch upon the transient nature of openness and acceptance, suggesting a necessity for ongoing efforts to maintain progress. The interview explores the personal significance of memorabilia and the recollection of shared experiences, such as attending weddings within the community. It candidly addresses the parallels and differences between queer and heterosexual relationships, especially regarding the vulnerability and dissolution of partnerships. Des and John describe their own wedding at the Zealandia Sanctuary as a joyful and memorable occasion, which was followed by an extensive honeymoon traveling across the United States, France, and Spain. They discuss the impact of visible queer representation in public spaces, sharing that despite the progress made, they themselves do not typically engage in public displays of affection, reflecting broader societal norms and comfort levels. The discussion reveals the couple's local celebrity status within their community, highlighting an instance where they were recognized during a school talk about sex education. They also note the lack of prevalent public affection amongst queer people in Wellington, with some exceptions for greetings or farewells. The interview touches on the Gay and Lesbian Fair's history, where Des had played a pivotal role in its establishment and perseverance. The significance of allyship is exemplified as they recall the support received from community members, such as Elaine Lethbridge, in ensuring the event's continuity. Des and John share their insights on the changes over the past 30 years since the Homosexual Law Reform Act, acknowledging improvements, especially for young people, but still recognizing the presence of homophobia and bullying. They express a nuanced understanding that visibility and advocacy can sometimes place pressure on individuals to represent their community positively. Concluding the interview, they iterate the concept that everyone is a minority in their own way and that the queer community's experience of being a minority can be a source of strength and self-awareness. The interview encapsulates a rich narrative of resilience, celebration, and the ongoing work toward queer equality, while also serving as a personal reflection on Des and John’s intimate journey as a couple in the broader context of New Zealand's social history. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  All right. Well, I'm John and my partner here is dead, and I'm absolutely delighted that this event is taking place. I really think it's important to New Zealand that a national institution such as the National Library can hold an event like that. I think we're very, very lucky. But, you know, the gay community and the lesbian community has worked to get this far, and the evidence is all around us. We're in a room now with lots of posters from the past, magazines from the past identifying the some of the struggles and the history [00:00:30] to do with HIV discrimination and so on. Well, we've always supported visibility. And this is a good example of visibility and awareness in our community, not just for gays, lesbians, but also for the world at large. And I think with the present climate of today, uh, where things are more open, but kind of sometimes it doesn't stay like that. And I think this is a great [00:01:00] help to I should never forget Fran during law reform campaign, talking about the two vs vigilance and visibility being absolutely essential. And I think those two vs remain as pertinent today as they did then. So we're in a room full of posters to do these Bring back memories for you. Uh, yes. I just looked at a devotion post. Uh, no, uh, devotion booklet over there with an article on me. And how many years ago? Yeah, [00:01:30] and, uh, yeah, quite a few. Uh, quite a lot of memorabilia. Yes. And, you know, particularly we were at the wedding of AJ and Thomas, and they're sort of showing up in this magazine that is here. And it's such a that, um Well, like most weddings or many weddings. Rather, um, that one fell apart. And, um, you know, in that case, we are no different from the heterosexual community. Just as vulnerable, just as fickle. [00:02:00] Perhaps I'm not sure if I've talked to you post your wedding at the Crary Sanctuary. How did that go? Oh, that was It was so good. We thought we might have another one. So the son in law said it was like a theatre from go to. And it was It was well organised food. Good company. We had a fabulous hostess and Amanda. She was absolutely stunning. And she kept the party rolling and entertained, [00:02:30] and the whole thing was an utter joy and very memorable. And, uh, it just forced us to have another 10 week honeymoon overseas. Where was the honeymoon? The honeymoon? Well, we started off in the United States, staying with friends, and then we went to Paris for three weeks, wandered around France, ended up in Spain, and, you know, as one does one we can, which was a lot of fun. Let's go [00:03:00] into that. A gay maker, You certainly are not at a minority there, which is important to see people guys walking down the street, hand in hand. I think there are a lot of us who are still finding that uncomfortable here, despite the progress we have made. So so do you guys walk hand in hand in the in the street? No, we have not really. But everybody knows who we are around where we live. And it was interesting because [00:03:30] the local, uh, college Onslow College had a sex talk and a gay guy came along and talk about sex. And apparently we were told by our neighbor's son, who was in the class, that they mentioned our names and everybody in the class knew who we were and who got married on May the first. It's really interesting about those public displays of affection. I mean, do you see many Rainbow [00:04:00] people in Wellington holding hands or or kissing in public? Uh, I think you see the sort of kissing on greeting or farewell, but, um, in terms of an amorous sort of approach to kissing, no. And we don't see the holding hands, women seem to be able to do that. But then I think women have always done that, whichever, uh, persuasion they may be, whether heterosexual or lesbian. There's not a lot of heterosexual people who run around hand in hand. So I think if you balance it out, it's not not [00:04:30] too bad. It's not critical. Should we walk down now? Down the street, hand in hand? Are you talking to me or Gareth? Just just checking Now, directly behind us, I see a poster for the Gay and lesbian fear, which must bring back some nice memories. Well, yes, we're absolutely astonished to find and to realise that next year is the 30th anniversary. And of course, there was so involved with with Pauline and James and setting up the first [00:05:00] one. you know, if it hadn't been for you three, I guess we wouldn't have a third. It was the second fear. When I asked Pauline and James if they were to help out with another fear, as it was a success, but they weren't interested, and we had to pay everything in advance. So out of my own money, I paid everything and set it all up in a new town school hall with a bit of a battle with the headmaster. Unfortunately, but there's a woman called, uh, Elaine Lethbridge, [00:05:30] who used to be in charge of the hall, and she knew that we'd give him one good fear. And she told me that she went on and she ripped hell out of him and said to him, These gays and they're going to have their fear no matter what you say. And I didn't know all this was going on, but she was a great supporter. She was She was not. She was a, um She was a married mom. She had a couple of kids, and but she always made sure that we had that fear. [00:06:00] So we're in 2015. So we we we're coming up to the 30th anniversary of not only the fear but also homosexual law reform. How have we gone? Do you think over those 30 years has it improved? And are there things that we need to improve? I would believe that it's a great deal easier. I think it's easier for young people, uh, to recognise who they are and to be open about it because we have such things as schools out when we have, [00:06:30] um, you know the opportunity for younger people to learn about what it means to be gay, as Des was mentioning earlier. And, um, I would hope that we get past the bullying stage there. There's still problems in schools. There are still, um, homophobia. There's, uh, stereotypical perceptions of what it means to be going, but we get there, and but I guess there will always be some people who don't understand or don't want to understand that there is a difference in the community. But it's very [00:07:00] it's really quite a minor one, except for the individuals involved, because what are we? We're just an ordinary suburban couple getting on with our neighbours and our lives, and it's very ordinary to be going in some ways these days, which is nice. It's interesting when some religious nutter, like that woman in America who wouldn't issue licences, uh, and the general, the community at large find that abhorrent, and so they should. And this, I can see happens more [00:07:30] now I do guiding at the, uh, because my first love is about nature and trying to protect the environment. And there's, uh, one other guide who, when she hears people say, Oh, you know, the gay guide and she really rips into them about say, you don't say the heterosexual guy, why are you saying the gay guide right now? This is visibility. It doesn't worry me, but I. I rather [00:08:00] like the fact that there's someone there who's camping. Uh, my cause is not the totality of des personality. That's the only problem is that when you know this is happening and you referred to as the gay guide, then you know you've got to do a good job because you're letting down a community, and that does put pressure on you. And but this I think being in a minority [00:08:30] will always be part of, uh, our existence, isn't there? A perception of being in a minority is, in fact, is a strengthening factor that we've had to cope with. Things have to understand things and to understand ourselves better than some other people understand themselves. Everybody's a minority. In some ways they were all individuals. You're right. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1980s ; 1990s ; 2010s ; A. J. Marsh ; Amanduh la Whore ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Canada ; Coming Up ; Des Smith ; Devotion (Wellington) ; Elaine Lethbridge ; France ; God ; HIV / AIDS ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986) ; Job ; John Jolliff ; Kim Davis ; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ) ; Lesbian and Gay Fair ; National Library of New Zealand ; Newtown School ; Onslow College ; Paris ; People ; Queer History in the Making (2015) ; School's Out (Wellington) ; Wellington ; Zealandia ; affection ; archives ; balance ; bullying ; class ; community ; difference ; discrimination ; elders ; environment ; farewell ; fear ; friends ; fun ; gay ; headmaster ; hell ; heterosexual ; history ; holding hands ; homophobia ; homophobic bullying ; homosexual ; homosexual law reform ; hope ; individual ; kissing ; law ; lesbian ; library ; love ; magazines ; marriage ; marriage equality ; minority ; nature ; opportunity ; other ; posters ; public affection ; public display of affection (PDA) ; queer ; rainbow ; relationships ; school ; success ; survey ; vigilance ; visibility ; walking ; wedding ; women ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/queer_history_in_the_making_des_and_john.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089675. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.