The title of this recording is "People Against Prisons Aotearoa and the Prisoner Correspondence Network". It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 10th December 2017. Kate McIntyre is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 22 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. The audio recording begins:  I'm Kate McIntyre, and I am a organiser for, um, people against Prisons A a Wellington based organiser. So, um, what we do at Papa is we, um, advocate for, um, for prisoners, and we, um we push Our ultimate goal is prison abolition. So we, um you know, we target the Department of Corrections. We advocate for prisoners on the inside. We have, um, the PC N as our, uh, sort of system organisation that is run from within, Papa. But, um, and you organise a penpal network, um, so that prisoners can be in contact with the outside. And what I do is I organise the Wellington branch. And, um, I also am in charge with, um, sort of lobbying parliament. So we write submissions to try and stop bills from passing or in support of bills passing. Um, talk with MP sometimes and try and, um, push for reforms that we think would be helpful. So where did Papa come from? Um, people against prisons was originally no pride in prisons and started in 2015. Um, on the announcement that corrections officers would be marching in uniform at the Auckland Pride parade. And so what happened was, um that went ahead. And, um, several of the original members in Auckland, um, protested that, and, uh, one of our organisers was injured, and that made world headlines. Um, because, yes, she was, um a you know, Trans woman, um, protesting the inclusion of corrections officers and pride because, um, of the abuse that, um in particular, queer and trans prisoners face in prisons and how that's really unacceptable. And, um, it just illustrated how she, um, when she was injured by security at pride, Um, that there was no place for, um, radical politics and pride or for, um, particular, um, marginalised, more marginalised members of the LGBT community. Um, and then and then from there, um, formed no pride in prisons. Originally, it was just the words printed on the banner, but the media gave us that name and it stuck. And, um, from there, we started advocating for, um, prisoners in particular. Um, a couple of trans women got in contact with us in prisons, and we managed to organise for one of them to be transferred out of a men's prison to um, a women's prison where she, um was a lot safer and less vulnerable to sexual violence against her. And then we campaigned to, um, on behalf of another prisoner after, um, she was raped in prison. She was put in solitary confinement, and we campaigned to get her out of there. And, uh, recently, we, um, launched, um, an in solitary confinement campaign. So we're broadening that ground work, the ground work that was done there. We're, um, broadening and and, um, pushing for the complete abolition of solitary confinement in New Zealand. Um, yeah. So, um, no pride in prisons. Um, earlier this year became people against prisons. And we, um, made that change for a few reasons. Um, late last year, we voted, we decided that, um, we would no longer be an exclusively queer and trans organisation that we would advocate for all prisoners because we wanted, um, for as many, um prisoners as possible to and ex prisoners as possible to join us. And regardless of their sexual orientation, it didn't matter. We just wanted them and our movement and also, um, through the prisoner correspondence network. We were getting penpal requests from a lot of, um, a lot of straight prisoners. And that was for a few reasons. Um, it really wasn't safe for a lot of the people we were writing to, um, to be receiving mail from an explicitly like, queer organisation with rainbows all over everything. Um, so, like so? So some of them were a bit subtle about it when promote when promoting the per prisoner correspondence network to other prisoners. And so we were getting requests from a lot of straight prisoners. Um, who just wanted a pen pal. And, um, so that yeah, that that was, um, So we and we weren't in a position where we wanted to deny them, um, support just because they weren't queer, Chas. So when you say it wasn't necessarily safe, where are those safety issues coming from? So, yeah, the prisoner correspondence network originally started to provide queer and trans prisoners and a network linked to their community outside of prisons. And but a lot of people in prison are closeted or, um, and prison itself is, um, quite an oppressive and closeting atmosphere in general, where you don't want to be too out, even if you are out. And so, um, so on on one hand, we were getting, um, straight people um who their friends weren't out to, their friends who promoted the PC into them, went out to, and they were writing. And But we're also getting people who, um, might not be comfortable, you know, being out. But they they want to, um, find those links. So it's also a matter of that. Nothing in prison is quite ever quite secure. Uh, often mailed up, incoming and outgoing. Mail does get read by correction staff, and some of them can be very, um, cruel and, um, homophobic. And yeah, and they can They can out prisoners as well. So So where did the idea for the correspondence network come from? Is that something somebody had seen overseas, or was it an original idea? Yeah, it was an idea we got from a Canadian group that was doing it. And, um, so we launched the prisoner correspondence network about June or July last year. It was, and it was inspired by, um, people in Canada who are doing the same thing, and they call it the Prisoner Correspondence Network as well. Um, we just thought like it's a great idea. It, um, gives us a link to prisoners that builds networks, um, between prisoners and free people. And, um, it it's how we can get advocacy requests. Um, for prisoners who might need, um, a bit more than just a penpal who might need people to actually step in on behalf of them. So how has the scheme gone? It's been going for over a year now. How? How How is it working? It's going great. As far as I know, we we've grown a huge amount. We often, um, grow in particular prisons where we have a couple of like people who have successful, um, links with people who have pen pals. And they will spread the word so we'll get bursts of people within particular prisons. And then there'll be other prisons where we haven't gained so much traction. Like, um, we're working on expanding into women's prisons because, um, there's not too many in there. So is it hard to to get people to to want to be pen pals on the outside? Um, it's it's quite easy to sell when you, um, describe it as brightening someone's day. Um, which is often how we, um, describe it like it's just a very simple thing that people can do for people incarcerated to, um, you know, brighten their day and, um, brighten their experience of their, um, quite awful experience of being incarcerated. And, um, I think there's a there's a growing interest and, um, you know, re humanising prisoners and that. So, um, I think we've got a lot of interest outside, and we we definitely have. We have over 200 pen pals, some of them overseas, because all you have to do is write a letter or send an email, um, which gets scanned and sent to them. So we have a couple of pen pals who are even overseas. Yeah. What do you think the, um, the benefits are for both the pen pals and and and the people inside for being part of this network, Prisoners get a a place where they can express themselves and express. Um, some of the things that the really repressive prison environment will try and, um, stamp out of them or push down Prisons are not are not good places for, um being expressive, So it's really good for them. Um, they get to build links with people outside. They get to practise their, um, writing skills because there's quite high rates of illiteracy in prisons as well. So, um, it gives them that ability and, um yeah, and we can, um And then they can ask for advocacy as well. Um, so we they can ask if, um, we can do more for them than just write to prisoners, and and we can arrange that. So it's it's been really good. And then people on the on the outside they get a look into what it's like inside prisons. They get to, um they get to talk to someone who might not be from from the same sort of world as them. And, um, because a lot, because a lot of, um, the problem with prisons is that the violence that goes on in there is happening out of sight and out of mind. Um, these people actually have windows inside where they can. They can understand better. Um, what's really going on? So how did you get involved? Um, I got involved, um, early last year in 2016, I started. Not really as a member. I was always, um, interested in no pride in prisons from the beginning from its genesis when, um you know, we protested the pride parade, and, um, Emmy was injured. I was always I always had an interest in the organisation. And then I made friends with someone in Wellington who was starting up the Wellington branch. And, um And then, like early last year, I started to tag along to the Wellington out in the park meetings and try and lobby them to stop corrections from being involved, um, for 2017, and that was successful. But, um, and then I did take a couple of trips to Auckland. I met everyone up there, and, uh and then we became a bit more organised and like, a bit more centralist in the way we organised. And so, um, I stepped up and and became parliamentary advocacy coordinator. So, like the person who lobbies Parliament in Wellington and and yeah, that's that's me. I joined at first because I was an emerging, um, lesbian who, um, was learning, learning about the, um, applying a more radical politics to the politics of, um, queer liberation. And, um, I was really incensed by, um, the liberalness of of pride and and the fact that, um, corrections officers were allowed to March and the fact that there were people being actively excluded from it. Um, but yeah, further down the line, I'm really glad that we're not an exclusively queer and trans organisation anymore. And and I'm really glad that we're, um, building ourselves to be bigger than that to be the the face of prison abolition, rather than, uh, the branch of a movement that doesn't quite exist yet. Yeah. Was it hard to move away from just being a, um, a kind of a queer focused organisation to to broaden it out? I think it was easier to be honest for the reasons I mentioned before that, Um, there's a lot of a lot of, um, prisoners and a lot of people who have an interest in prison reform and prison abolition who, um, didn't have a movement to join, and they were kind of being included anyway, like with the straight pen pals who were writing to us. And we were like, Of course, we're gonna try and find you a pen pal anyway, and so we just, um becoming what was no longer a queer and trans organisation was really just us being honest with ourselves and realising that we're weren't quite that anymore. It didn't mean that all the organisers, um, the original members turned straight all of a sudden. Definitely not. Um, And there's still a very strong interest in in, um, anti pink washing politics. But but we our our focus is to, you know, target the Department of Corrections more generally. So I remember seeing some media around about the the protesting of the pride parades and that, um, I had read that corrections were going to make attempts at at at at kind of, um, having more inclusive policies. Do you know, as it happened, um, I think that the the violence that corrections does is is it can't really be reformed. Um, they they'll talk about being more inclusive ones, and they do have, you know, police corrections. They do have diversity liaison people. But at the end of the day, um, you know, queer and trans prisoners, they're still experiencing violence, as all prisoners are, because it's a space of violence and a space of, um of oppression. And so I can't think I don't think they can ever move away from that. And we we see it all over with, um, you know, a NZ which, um, that they'll, um, do all these inclusive policies their GT MS and their um, But in the end, it's really just about, um, trying to capitalise off a market and, like, present themselves as a kind of ethical organisation or or business. And, um, but they're still, um, exploiting their workers, exploiting their in the environment. They they have their fingers on a lot of pies all over the world that exploit people in the environment. Yeah. So, looking forward to say, uh, next year's pride parades in both Auckland and Wellington is that something that, uh, you're going to be targeting or advocating that corrections? Don't be a part of, um we won't protest it if they are included. Because we we've moved beyond that now. And, um uh, happy with the work we do more generally, um, not focused around politics of pride, but, um, politics of prisons as a whole. But we would still, you know, encourage people to, um object and protest that decision. And, um, I like there was a brief, um, window earlier this year where we thought that corrections officers were going to be, um protest. Um, sorry. Marching in the Wellington Pride parade, and there was a bit of an internal debate, and we decided not to protest it. But there were still a lot of people in Wellington who were really incensed about the decision, and they wanted to protest it, and we were encouraging that. But then it was announced that, um, they actually wouldn't be marching anymore. And so that was a bit of a relief, but yeah, today we're at a workshop, a very special workshop. Can you tell me what you're doing today? OK, so today we're crafting a whole lot of holiday cards to send to our incarcerated pin pals across New Zealand. And, um, the the goal is to, you know, just really brighten up their day and let them know that they're, um, supported and being thought of around the holiday season. Um, we did this last year, and it was very successful. And all of the, um, incarcerated pen pals were very, um, had a very positive reaction to that to being sent to a whole lot of holiday cards. And so we're doing that again. And we've had workshops in Auckland yesterday and we're having another one in Wellington today. And so can you paint a picture for me? What? It's like, um, for an incarcerated person on Christmas Day. What do they What would they, um, receive if nothing, um, I've seen some corrections PR about, um, you know, Christmas pageants and and so on. But for a lot of people, it's still a very lonely experience. Um, some might get to see their families, but others. Um, some people are estranged from their families, and they actually have very few links on the outside, which is what the prisoner correspondence network is supposed to combat and and create links between people. Um, my friend has a pen pal in, um, prison. Who, um, he could remember the exact date of his last visit, and it was over a year ago. So, um so, yeah, for a lot of them, it's just very lonely and and quite depressing around the holiday season. Just being in in prison and not being able to be outside and enjoying the holidays. So, um, even though, you know, corrections might put on a couple of festivities, I think it would still be very depressing. Yeah. Uh, so I'm Tom, um, recent graduate from thick work at the university. Still, um, what brought me here today? Was it just see something very easy and sweet to do around the holiday period where we're all supposedly thinking about other people and, um, you know, celebrating the end of the year and that sort of stuff. Had you been involved with, um, either no pride in prisons or the prisoner correspondence network before? Uh, so, yeah, I found the PC N network through, um, social media basically just ended up following people who work for, um, people against prisons. And so I signed up for that network, um, over in a few letters and then saw that they were doing this through in social media. What are the, um, benefits of of being a pen pal? Um, they were, from my perspective, from someone obviously not in prison that just it. It it opens up, uh, you know, a side of life that you're just not exposed to. You get kind of, you know, over determined narratives about prisoners most of the time and just, you know, see that they they're people with their own struggles, Like like anybody but you know, that's been also magnified by the largest problem, isn't it? Um, And then from what I've gathered from talking to my pin pals, it just seems like loneliness and boredom is a big part of life in prison and, you know, talking about stuff, talking about stuff that's not prison talking about, You know, pretty much anything with them seems to give some sort of relief or, you know, something Every rep prive from day to day life. What? What? What have you learned? What is the biggest thing that you've kind of taken away so far? Um, you just it's so easy to take for granted your own, sort of like freedoms. And you, you sort of like, you know, you're sitting on at home after work and you're feeling bored and you don't know what to do with yourself. And then you're like, Well, like I could put something back, I could help somebody. There's people in worst situations, basically, just Yeah, yeah, I don't know really how to find that without sounding kind of cheesy and corny. It must also be a very interesting experience. Where rather than just seeing, um, you know, prisoners as a as a mass group, You're actually dealing on a 1 to 1 basis. Yeah, it's you. You start seeing you start seeing the same sort of stories come back up as well. Like such similar, like backgrounds that, you know, you get like, you get the individual like the particular But then it's You can then, like, build a more accurate kind of network or like frame around how to understand a lot of these problems, I think, rather than as you say, just seeing, you know, prisoners within a prison system. It's people within the, you know. Yeah. Interlinked. The matrix of things. Basically. So what are some of the things that you kind of see coming up time and time again? Um, just disadvantage. Really? Like it all seems to start very early. Um, like, yeah, they often talk about their childhood and, yeah, Has it changed your, um, outlook on corrections and prisons in New Zealand? Yeah, it's helped me Kind of I. I think I began seriously questioning things at university. Um, obviously, it's where we get exposed to a lot of new ideas, and yeah, this has helped Kind of kind of make my own feelings, more firm that like it's It's it's OK to talk about the prison system in corrections on a conceptual level and what might be good and what might be bad in terms of how we want to resist or whatever. But then seeing actual individual lives within that system obviously kind of brings it, you know, firms up your sort of like thinking behind it and like what? You're really trying to help and who you're trying to help. Yeah, I've really grown a lot in my skills and my ability to advocate for people, and it's been a really, um, a great experience of growth for me. I've become a bit, um, more so, but, um like I used to watch orange is the new black. And now I can't anymore because the issue has gotten far too real for me. Um, that the show just seems to be trivialising it, um, for me. But I also have friends in the organisation who love that show. So that's just a me thing. Um, I I'm just feel like this is what I want to do. Um, for as long as possible, is continue to advocate for prisoners whether that's an outside or inside. If I end up going to prison one day, hopefully not. Um, just just, you know, pushing and pushing to, you know, minimise the violence that corrections does and then towards prison abolition. This is this is what I want to be doing. And I'm really happy to be here. Yeah. The audio recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s; ANZ Bank New Zealand; Canada; Department of Corrections; Emilie Rākete; Kate McIntyre; Orange Is the New Black (tv); Out in the Park (Wellington); Parliament buildings; People Against Prisons Aotearoa (formerly known as No Pride In Prisons); Pink washing; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade (Auckland); Prisoner Correspondence Network; Queer liberation; Wellington; advocate; boredom; crime; disadvantage; holiday cards; illiteracy; lesbian; letter; lobbying; loneliness; marginalisation; marginalised communities; media; oppression; outing; penpals; politics; prison; prisoners; protest; radical politics; rainbows; safety; sexual violence; social media; solitary confinement; support; television; trans; transgender; violence; women. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/papa_and_pcn.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089791. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.