This text file contains detailed information about an audio recording on PrideNZ.com. It includes the following sections: DESCRIPTION, SPEAKERS, SUMMARY, KEY CONTENT TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS], TRANSCRIPT WITH TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS], HUMAN VERIFIED TRANSCRIPT, KEYWORDS, REFERENCES, RELATED CONTENT AND FOOTNOTE. 

## START DESCRIPTION
The title of this recording is "Des Smith and John Jolliff - Out in the City 2026". It is described as: An interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff at Out In the City, 2026. It was recorded in Odlins Plaza, 21 Cable Street, Wellington on the 15th March 2026. The duration of the recording is 15 minutes. The content in the recording covers the decades 1980s through to the 2020s.
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## START SPEAKERS
This is an interview with Des Smith and John Jolliff. The interviewer is . These names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document.
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## START SUMMARY
The recording captures a lively interview with two long-time Wellington activists during the Out in the City Pride celebration held at Odlins Plaza on 15 March 2026. The conversation reflects on forty years of LGBTQ+ activism in Aotearoa New Zealand, beginning with the first Lesbian and Gay Fair in 1986 and continuing through to the vibrant Pride events of the 2020s. Through humour, reflection and personal storytelling, Des Smith and John Jolliff describe how community visibility, courage and collective effort helped transform social attitudes towards the rainbow community. The interview begins by recalling the historic first Lesbian and Gay Fair, organised during the campaign for homosexual law reform. Held in the hall of Newtown School in Wellington, the event was deliberately staged in a neighbourhood known for its diverse and supportive population. Des Smith explains that one of the key motivations was visibility. At a time when homosexuality between men was still criminalised in New Zealand, simply organising a public event celebrating the lesbian and gay community was considered a bold and potentially risky action. Securing the venue itself was not straightforward. A supportive local woman, Elaine Lethbridge, helped hire the hall despite objections from the school headmaster, who did not want gay people using the school grounds. Lethbridge confronted him directly, arguing that someone who had experienced discrimination himself should understand the importance of supporting others facing prejudice. Her intervention ensured the fair could go ahead, highlighting the importance of allies in the broader struggle for LGBTQ+ rights. The fair quickly developed a lively and celebratory atmosphere. Des remembers the excitement of people arriving to run stalls, perform music and connect with others in the community. The event attracted strong support from people across Wellington, demonstrating that there was already a visible and active network of lesbian and gay people and supporters. At the same time, opposition existed. Des recalls the appearance of three men known as the “T-shirt boys”, who stood outside the venue wearing shirts with anti-gay slogans linking homosexuality to AIDS and opposing law reform. Rather than allowing the protest to disrupt the event, community solidarity stepped in. Members of the Amazons Softball Club, who were practising nearby, came over carrying their bats and quietly surrounded the protesters. The show of solidarity effectively neutralised the situation and ensured the fair could continue without confrontation. The purpose of the fair was closely tied to the campaign for homosexual law reform. In 1985 MP Fran Wilde had introduced the Homosexual Law Reform Bill into Parliament, seeking to decriminalise sexual activity between men. Activists recognised that public visibility and community engagement were crucial in influencing social attitudes during the debate. Des Smith worked alongside fellow organisers including James Heslop and Porleen Simmonds through the Gay Task Force to create events that encouraged people to see the humanity and diversity of the gay and lesbian community. Organising the fair also exposed activists to hostility. Des recounts experiences such as rocks being thrown at his house and even an attempt by a woman to run him down with her car. Despite these dangers, he remained determined to be open about his identity and stand up for equality. Over time, attitudes began to shift. When Des returned to the same local businesses while organising the second fair, he noticed a clear change in how people responded. More shopkeepers were willing to display posters and support the event, indicating a gradual transformation in public sentiment. Poster campaigns played an important role in promoting the law reform movement. Des tells an amusing story about putting up posters with the help of a young volunteer, Emily Perkins. They discovered a fundamentalist Christian repeatedly scraping the posters down. To outwit him, they placed posters higher up using a ladder so they could not easily be removed. These small acts of persistence helped spread awareness of the campaign throughout Wellington. Fast forward forty years and the scene around them at Out in the City in 2026 feels dramatically different. Des and John describe a colourful, energetic event with people of all ages, genders and backgrounds filling the waterfront space. Around eighty stalls represent community organisations, advocacy groups and businesses supporting the rainbow community. The sense of warmth and celebration stands in stark contrast to the hostility and fear that surrounded early activism. The couple had recently been honoured as Grand Marshals in the Wellington Pride Parade, an experience John describes as emotional and humbling. While they received public recognition, he emphasises that the achievements of the past decades belong to many individuals and communities. Activists such as Tim Barnett, Georgina Beyer and Alison Laurie, along with countless people who wrote submissions, organised events and offered support, all contributed to the progress seen today. Their personal story is intertwined with this wider history. Des Smith and John Jolliff have been together for thirty-eight years, having met while volunteering for the New Zealand AIDS Foundation. The AIDS crisis of the 1980s and 1990s was another defining moment for the rainbow community, bringing both discrimination and solidarity. Working together during that period strengthened their relationship and deepened their commitment to community service. Throughout the interview, both men emphasise the importance of remembering history. They express appreciation for projects that document LGBTQ+ stories and bring them to wider audiences. Recording personal experiences ensures that the struggles, courage and resilience of earlier generations are not forgotten. Looking ahead, Des and John share hopes for the future. They want to see a world with less discrimination and greater understanding between people of different backgrounds. Des also speaks about the importance of recognising and respecting Māori culture in Aotearoa New Zealand, encouraging wider awareness of te reo Māori and the country’s Indigenous heritage. Ultimately, their message is simple: societies can change, and progress is possible when communities work together for equality and inclusion.
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## START KEY CONTENT TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS]
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## START TRANSCRIPT WITH TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS]
Right. Well, I'm Des and, and I'm John and Des and John. 40 years ago on this very day, what was happening? Oh, so much and so many memories. And they are so vivid from people coming to oppose to people supporting, but the supporters outnumbered the opposition. And I'll tell you what, there's so many people to thank, and the music [00:00:30] was wonderful, and Don Frank's not gay, but. Boy, oh boy. He operated a band for us. And uh, the whole hall was just such a buzz. So the first lesbian and gay fair, that was at what Newtown School? Newtown School Hall. And, uh, the thing is, when we decide that we'll have a fair and the visibility, the thing important was to be on neutral ground. Newtown was an area where there was quite a high. Proportion of [00:01:00] people who were lesbian, gay, and it seemed, uh, the ideal place. So the thing was to hide the hall. And a woman called Elaine Lethbridge was so supportive and she was the one that hired the hall out. Unfortunately, the headmaster was opposed, but boy did she rip into him. And why would, why would he be opposed? Oh, he didn't want those queers on his ground school grounds. I don't, but interesting was he was Maori. [00:01:30] And this is what she said to him, you should know about discrimination. Look at the color of your skin. You, you should support these people. And he backed down. And because of her, we got the hall hide. And I'll tell you what, it was a blast, but we did have the t-shirt. Boys turn. And I quite vividly remember that, but T-Shirt boys were the guys that used to go in front of parades. They had t-shirts of gay plus gay equals aids, [00:02:00] and on the back stop, homosexual law reform, three of them turned up. Uh, nobody in the hall knew they were outside. I immediately ran 1 1 1, got the police. But the big thing was the Amazon softball team were practicing on the grounds at the hall, and I went over to 'em and said, look, we've got problem with these guys. They walked over bats on their shoulder and stood round them. I tell you what the, I wish I had a [00:02:30] photo. It was amazing. These women. With these bats on their shoulder and these bigots, where did those guys come from? Do you know? They were apparently, uh, two of them were the sons of a, uh, evangelical pastor, and they decided that this is what. The campaign they were gonna do, I dunno where the third one came from, but someone said years later he was caught doing the bogs. So, but I don't know exactly [00:03:00] that background, but we, we called them the t-shirt boys. And can you describe what the, what the atmosphere was like at that, that fear? Oh, it was amazing. What amazed me was how many people turned up to have a stall and help out to people, just us from nowhere. And I, I just sort of became public about it. And then I put posters around Newtown at the shops and was interested the reaction because on the second fair, I went to the [00:03:30] same shops and there was a change of attitude. But first of all, uh, about 60% of people were good and about, uh, 40% no good. And it was interesting. But on the second fair. Because I asked the other two who helped me on the first Fair. Fair would help, and they said no. So I ran it on my own and I funded the whole thing myself and I thought if I lose the money, too bad. But I made a profit and from then on it's, it's grown. [00:04:00] So the first fair was for a fear for a fair law. What was that about? Well, okay, the bill had been put into Parliament by Fran Wald. For homosexual law reform, and it didn't get passed until July. So it was at the beginning of the year. It was at December. Um, that was uh, 19. Uh, hold on, I get my dates right. But anyway, but last, um, gay task force meeting, we decided we needed that visibility and [00:04:30] fear was a consensus that would have. So myself and James' Lo and Paul Sim Simmons, we, we were elected to be the ones to organize the fair and visibility. At that time, that was actually potentially quite dangerous, wasn't it? Oh, yes, yes. I had, I had a woman tried to run me over in a car and, uh, we had rocks chucked at our house, but it was okay, you know, uh, I stood up. And, uh, said, this is who I am. [00:05:00] And, uh, if you don't like it, too bad. And, and so here we are in 2026, and can you describe what you can see around us? Oh, loads of people and loads of color and people of all ages and. And many varied stalls, which is great and a lovely sky of clouds. I, I'm quite fascinated by clouds because I spent three months in the desert area and never saw a cloud [00:05:30] and, but to see the clouds up in the sky, not many, but there's just beautiful patterns and all these people. Lovely. And there's a woman over there of lovely blue hair, and I think that's great. And, uh. So, uh, color and visibility, which I said on my speech on the stage. And, and, and John, what's the feeling like? I think it's absolutely stunning to be in the middle of this buzzy atmosphere on a very special day. [00:06:00] As you say, the 40th anniversary of a fear for a fair law, but it's people of all types, all sorts, all it's all sorts, all genders, I guess, and really around 80 stores and the day couldn't be better. And it's just, it's such a feeling of warmth and community. I love it. Yeah. It also says to me that actually people and societies can change. So even if you're in the, in the darkest times with bigoted views, there [00:06:30] is actually a, a potentially a brighter future, isn't there? Oh, yes, it was. Um, yeah, you occasionally came across people who were really with it. A young woman called Emily Perkins phoned me up. She wasn't lesbian, but her parents were incredibly thinking people, and her and her sister were influenced by the parents. She phoned me up, could she help? And I said, yes, come and help me put posters up. And she was 16, so I'd pick her up [00:07:00] from her home, Inala, and we'd go around, put posters. And I, I think I've told this one before, but I tell it again 'cause it was quite funny. We'd put the posters up all around the town on anything we could find. And um, and then when we did that, Franwell's office used to get blasted with phone calls about the town. Anyway, um, all of a sudden we came downtown and our posters had disappeared. So I said, well put something up and see what happens. [00:07:30] And sure enough, a fundamentalist Christian Guy. Walked along with a paint scraper, scraping them off. And I said to Emily, I said, okay, tomorrow puts up some more. And I brought a ladder and she'd hold the ladder and I'll climb up, glue up the post. Then we sat in this little van I had and waited. The guy came along, it was wonderful to see his face looking up. No way could he scrape the posters down. So, I mean, this happened and, uh, I remember a cop car [00:08:00] screaming around the corner and um, we were putting up on the, uh, bank. We were around the Buller Street. Were putting some posters there, but the military tattoo was on. And they had posters up and the cop car stopped and I started pasting the Miller, putting paste on the military tattoo poster. And she said, what are you doing? And I said, oh, just putting up posters for a military tattoo. And she, and uh, she said, oh, okay. Anyway, I went, uh, went on, we started [00:08:30] putting up posters. The cop car came back and she said. What are you doing now? And she said, give me a poster. I gave her one. She said, this is not the military tattoo. Anyway, moments like that gave you a laugh, man. Yeah. Um, uh, as I said at the parade, the fight was worth it when you see all this. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, uh, last week, uh, on Saturday we had the Wellington Pride Parade. Thousands of people. Turned out [00:09:00] you both were the Grand Marshals, John, how, how did that feel being in the car? It was gobsmacking. I, it was very emotional and very moving and I, I loved it, frankly, but I do feel that whilst we were there getting a lot of sort of attention, we really represented. So many people who had made so much effort to change society over the past 40 years. We did nothing on our own. You, you think of Tim Barnett, you think of Georgina [00:09:30] Bayer, you, you think of people who sent letters to select committees. Oh, so many people who just helped us and prove there is a gay community, although it's not as perhaps coherent. There's other communities like church group, there is a support within the rainbow community and it's important that that is maintained because there is still work to be done. Yeah. But there's a lot of people to thank, and [00:10:00] when I look back and think people like Phil P and Bill, Logan, Allison, Laurie, um, there, there's just many people to think, and not only within the gay community, but also out in the straight community also. People coming out, people like Dom Franks, and uh. And, and like Emily Perkins and so many people. And this gives you encouragement and makes it feel that there's a better world than what you experience when [00:10:30] you get somebody who is so intensely bigoted. But, uh, anyway, uh, here we are. We're gonna have fun and, uh. Uh, as I said, you know, the fight was worth it. Absolutely, absolutely. One of the lovely things for me was to see you both together in the parade and here today. And how long have you been together as a couple. 38 years and it's, it is just flown by. And we met way back as volunteers at the [00:11:00] New Zealand AIDS Foundation as it was there. And that was a remarkable time. So much discrimination, so much to be done. And I was reminded of that by the show of Peter Duncan's videos at to papa. That was Wow. The beacon of hope. I cried. Yes. And yeah, it is just such a lovely atmosphere and John and I met as volunteers for the AIDS foundation and uh, [00:11:30] that's how we met. And from being on, we've had a, a wonderful time together and we. We look at some photos of our travels together, and boy, we've had, uh, as Bill Logan did say recent to us. Both of you have had an interesting life and we have, and, uh, we haven't got long to go, I'd say at our ages, but, uh. I just hope that the world becomes a better place, and I would like to make just one little mention, beware of [00:12:00] antisemitism. During homosexual law reform, there's a group of young Jewish people who gathered money, they weren't gay. They got money together to buy posters, and they bought enormous amount of posters and it gave us an enormous amount of support. I was gonna say that. Uh, one of the things that you Gareth do that I find impressive is to maintain that our history is not lost. You are recording our history all the [00:12:30] time, and I think the walks that you do, your pride walks are very well thought out. Very, very important. And, um, just for your information, we have friends from Paris and through New York who've come over, especially for Pride, and they will be on your Georgina bio walk. Oh, that is so special. Thank you for letting us know. That's amazing. I mean, we, we get so much joy out of. Um, the walk tours because actually it's bringing history alive. It's, it's, yeah, I'd like to [00:13:00] come on them, but, uh, unfortunately a just caught up with me. We're not quite as mobile as we used to be. Well, hopefully, um, this year we're gonna be doing some virtual walk tours, so, so sitting down events. Okay. Which would be lovely to, to have, have you both at. Um, just, just finally, um, we've done 40 years since law reform, 40 years since the fear started in another 40 years. What would you like to tell people if, if, if we recorded this and people who this 40 [00:13:30] years from now? Well, 40 years from now, I'd like to see more peace in the world and. Uh, not just the wonderful way we can be out in New Zealand, but every country in the world. I would like to see in 40 years time, a rethinking of the differences. And as the French say, Viva la nce. Long lived differences and I would say vivid difference and let's [00:14:00] hope. We become. Also, I feel that, um, I don't like the way people abuse our Maori population, that I'd like to see more people speaking to Rao and more aware of the wonderful culture. Um, I'm well known for my guiding at Zel Landia and before we do a tour, we always give a mihi that's a greeting and tour rail. And also when you learn about. The [00:14:30] history and the wonderful culture. This is what I'd like to see more awareness. And people to be more aware of our Maori population. It's difficult to add to what de said, but essentially I would like there to be no discrimination on any grounds whatsoever, whether it's gender, race, color. I would just like the world to be a happier. Makes a happy place with everybody being [00:15:00] able to be themselves, as simple as that. Well, thank you Des and John. It's been a real pleasure being able to talk to you over the years. I mean, it has been a few years now, hasn't it? Oh, yeah. I think my, my, my, my most vivid memory was when you said that you were gonna do the Pride Parade in a, it was a, a New York. Police G-string. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're a little bit, uh, risque at times.
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## START HUMAN VERIFIED TRANSCRIPT
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## START KEYWORDS
1980s, 2020s, AIDS, Amazons Softball Club (Wellington), Aotearoa New Zealand, Beacons of Hope (Wellington), Bill Logan, Don Franks, Elaine Lethbridge, Emily Perkins, Evangelical Christianity, Events, Fran Wilde, Gay Task Force, Georgina Beyer, Homosexual Law Reform, James Heslop, John Jolliff, Lesbian and Gay Fair, Māori, New Zealand AIDS Foundation (NZAF), Newtown, Newtown School, Paris, People, Peter Duncan, Porleen Simmonds, Pride parade, Tim Barnett, Wellington, Wellington Pride, Willis Street, abuse, anti-Semitism, attitude, bogs, change, church, coming out, community, culture, difference, discrimination, emotional, encouragement, face, fear, french, friends, fun, future, gay, gender, hair, headmaster, history, home, homosexual, homosexual law reform, hope, law, lesbian, love, memory, military, music, other, parade, parents, peace, police, posters, race, rainbow, school, softball, speech, stall, straight, support, t-shirt boys, t-shirts, tattoo, time, visibility, walk tour, wish, women, work.
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## START REFERENCES
The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/out_in_the_city_2026_des_smith_and_john_jolliff.html.
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## START FOOTNOTE
Generated 2026-03-15T22:25:54+13:00.
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