The title of this recording is "Georgina Beyer and Brian Tamaki debate civil unions". It is described as: Georgina Beyer and Brian Tamaki debate civil unions, live on the Holmes television programme. It was recorded in Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 23rd August 2004. This is an interview with Brian Tamaki and Georgina Beyer. The interviewer is Paul Holmes. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 11 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. The content in the recording covers the decades 1930s through to the 2000s. A brief summary of the recording is: In Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand, on August 23, 2004, a recorded debate featuring Georgina Beyer and Brian Tamaki, with interviewer Paul Holmes, tackled the contentious topic of the Civil Union Bill and its implications for New Zealand society. Throughout the discourse, the contrasting views became clearly demarcated: Tamaki, representing the vocal opposition rooted in religious conviction, and Beyer, defending the necessity of the legislation for equity and recognition of same-sex relationships under the law. The debate, which ran for approximately 11 minutes, aired on the television program hosted by Paul Holmes. Key issues raised centered around the potential legalization of same-sex unions and the broader implications for marriage and family structures. Tamaki, the head of the Destiny Church, having led a protest march against the Bill, was queried on the group's controversial approach, which many felt echoed historical oppressive regimes due to its aesthetics and rhetoric. The march itself included uniform black attire and raised-arm gestures, which invited comparisons to Nazi methodology, a linking that Tamaki fervently denied, arguing the march was a peaceful demonstration aimed at upholding marriage and protecting families. Beyer challenged the conduct at the protest, reporting feelings of intimidation and hostility faced while engaging with counter-marchers and highlighting the incongruence of such behavior with the proclaimed peaceful intentions. Beyer underscored the lack of impact the Civil Union Bill had on heterosexual marriage and emphasized that contrary to being destructive, the legislation offered legal recognition to over 300,000 citizens in same-sex relationships, thus ensuring them the same rights as heterosexual couples under law. The conversation then pivoted to Tamaki's stance on same-sex relationships, as the pastor distinguished between opposition to behaviors deemed unnatural or abnormal and attitudes towards individuals in the gay and lesbian community. Despite Tamaki's assertions of a peaceful and orderly demonstration, Beyer presented a firsthand account contesting the narrative of civility and highlighting the exclusionary undercurrents of Destiny Church's message. A brief side discussion emerged focusing on Tamaki's personal assets and the financial practices within the Destiny Church, including tithing expectations from the congregation - a point that was justified by Tamaki as being biblically guided and a testament to prudent lifestyle choices. In conclusion, both guests stood their ground, with Beyer strongly supporting civil liberties for the LGBTQ+ community, and Tamaki maintaining the march's focus was on safeguarding familial institutions and children's futures. The debate underscored the deep-seated tensions in New Zealand's society regarding civil rights, religious freedom, and societal values at the time. The full transcription of the recording begins:  A Nazi movement. And if any New Zealanders think it can't happen here, I bet you that's what the Germans thought in the 19 thirties. He love. Enough is enough. No, I know. No, um, enough is enough. But that why you is he every one of you? I don't mind at all. The hatred is totally intolerable. So that was yesterday. Pastor Brian Tamaki is people that came from all over the country to protest to what they see as the imminent legalising of gay marriage of the the Civil Union Bill. Brian Tamaki, the controversial, charismatic head of the increasingly popular Destiny Church, preaches crowds of around 1500. That does Brian Tamaki. He is our first televangelist and say what you like, But his people love him. He's got a million dollar home. Nothing wrong about, of course, except the money comes from church members, many of whom give up 10% of their gross incomes to his church. And that bothers some people. But the style of that march yesterday the tone of it gave some people the creep. It people like Georgina. She is with us live And, uh, Brian, he himself Can you see why we're bothered, Brian. You know the the stiff arm, the salute. Everybody wearing black. You're down on homosexual on rugby grounds, Paul, when somebody scores a try, and I've seen it in many other places when triumph, for instance in Athens, the raising of the arm like that is is nothing akin to Nazism as it's been said. We had a great day yesterday. I'm sure it was a great day for you, but, you know, can't you see any similarities at all? Everybody wearing black people don't all wear the same colour when they go to the rugby game. We were marching like there was a marching element there. Well, if you wore all white, then they moan. If we wore pink, they'd moan. Um, I mean, what's the difference? I mean, the all Blacks are all in black, and people wear black when they go to the football grounds. You see no similarities between that march here to the Nuremberg rally. Oh, totally different. Here we were. We were standing there, uh, for the up upholding the institution of marriage. Let's get on to that short. You get on to that short. Did you see similarities with um, you know, did you see memories? Echoes of the past there? I most certainly did, Paul. And not only that, I think it was the, um, attitude that accompanied the gestures. Um, it was angry. It was threatening. Um, it was, uh, meaning, uh, to hurt the feelings of people such as myself. In In what way? Was it angry and, um, threatening? I mean, say you were the walking along, yelling at them, telling them that you found them disturbing. After the formalities of the speeches were over and everyone was preparing to disperse, I went down to the crowd to go and talk to, um uh the, uh, counter march supporters. I got into the middle and I had to pass through destiny church members. And, um, suddenly I felt quite threatened by the taunting, the yelling at me, calling me George. George George. Jesus loves you. We love you abnormal. You know, we need to, you know, changing behaviour, this kind of stuff. This is not the only report, Brian. You know, people feeling a certain ugliness inside your crowd. Well, we don't perpetrate that, and I certainly don't. We don't go around shouting those sort of things at people, and we're not putting up with that. And we don't perpetrate that. Well, I have to contradict them, Paul, but that is precisely what was going on down there yesterday. I have many witnesses around me at that time who would have noted and and seen that they are parenting a, um, a belief that, um uh, that Brian has espoused as pastor of his church Don't like, does he? Uh, no. No, they do not like gay. You will say that you've got nothing against gays. You don't like what they do. How does that work? Yeah, we need to really get this clear here on national television right now that we were down there with a peaceful march. And by the way, the Wellington police said it was the most orderly march that they've seen. And we are there to uphold the institution of marriage and to protect the family. Now, hang on. Talk about let's go one step by step here talking about the gays. You're not against gays and lesbians. Is that right? No, not those people and lesbians, because at the moment there's a bit of legislation. We benefit gays and lesbians. There you are. March. We're not against gay people, Paul, but we're definitely, uh, there to make a stand, uh, for marriage and for the for the protection of the family. Because the legislation that this government is perpetrating through the civil Union bill is destructive to families. How does it hurt families? Oh, well, it doesn't. Actually, Paul, it doesn't affect, uh, the institution of marriage One iota. You as a heterosexual person, marriage is not going to be affected one way or another. By that at all. There are 300,000 plus normal heterosexual New Zealanders who are going to benefit. Everybody knows gay couples are going to be able to get the same rights before the law as a heterosexual couple. Same sex couples are hallelujah. Yeah, well, exactly. Hallelujah. What? What damage is that gonna do to families? Families are heard by drunken fathers beating mothers. There will be many viewers right now watching your programme, who may not agree with my particular Christian convictions. But we certainly agree that this type of behaviour is unnatural and it's abnormal and it's just not acceptable. I don't want my Children or my grandchildren to have to contend with that. But you say it's unnatural. You say it's abnormal. Uh, I mean, you say it. These people are citizens like you. They have jobs, they pay their taxes, they don't go and beat up kids. If we went out to the public pool and a referendum out there right now, um, 80% of this population would say No, we we don't want this. We don't want this legislation. We don't want this law. This particular relationship of same sex relationships cannot be put on the same footing with marriage. He has a great habit of casting a very wide net to include a lot of people. How many of us are going to object to upholding family values, respecting those who believe in God and Christian, not many New Zealanders poor. It's the underlying message that comes with it. Uh, but only for those of us that happen to adhere to his belief system. And the rest of us can go to hell. You've got a funny attitude on sex all around. Really? If you don't mind my saying so, you implied that Georgina was some kind of sexual perversion. This a couple of years back. You suggested that Tim Barnett would stop at nothing to bring an acceptance of every sexual orientation into this country. Do you believe that? 02 men together and two women together. And we say that that is a a legitimate sexual relationship. Um, you know, that is akin to perversion that is not natural. And again, most people viewing your programme would agree with that. That is not natural. They don't want this. And and now we got 1996 with the homosexual law reform, the country got over it, Then it moved on. And I see the link you're making between the and the safety of the family and, um, some kind of giving gay couples rights before the law in terms of a union. As I say to you, it is heterosexual men coming home. Boos from the pub bashing Mama, that's what I'm saying to you is the family ain't not necessarily some great wonderful temple, Brian, is it? It it nevertheless, with all its dysfunctions that it might have around it, Paul, the institution of marriage is irreplaceable. And the moment that we tamper with that, we're going to continue to see the difficulties we face right now being replaced. Of course, The Civil Civil Union. What are we doing with families? A gay couple over here who want to make a formal legal commitment to each other can do so. But you, you we're a family. We're not affected by that. Well, of course, what they're also espousing is that those who do not believe in the same things as Brian and his congregation do. And then our families, uh, matter a little we don't have. There's no value in in my yeah at the same time, Georgina, we've played fast and loose with the family, and a lot of people watching Brian are very and a lot of Brian's church people mention how they've learned to live as a family. I've heard them on the talk backs and they talk about they've learned the wonders and the value of the family, and we've seen nothing but family breakdown and the success of governments for 30 years. I could probably show you, um, or introduce you to Children of same sex couples who are, well, some of the most well adjusted New Zealanders you could want to meet. There is always going to be. There is always going to be a green and our responsibility. Take a drop of the real issues and deal with them. And I know that the Labour League government is looking at the family issues. We've established a families commission. Uh, we are working on the trial to bring same sex relationships to the same foot in his marriage, and that's not good enough. Not good enough. Not good enough for me, as the law is the day that we can then sit around the abortion and about your church. The thing I mentioned right at the top, you should have a chance to answer that. You've got a million dollar home. You've got a boat to understand. You're paying off. You've got a couple of flash cars or flash car. You've got a couple of Harleys. Um um and your money is derived solely from the church, and the people who come to your church are asked to give 10% of their gross, not net gross income. Isn't that a bit dodgy? Brian, that's a no. That's a biblical requirement, Paul, that, uh, any church that, uh, well, hold on after 24 25 years of living right and doing the right things and making wise decisions. You should have something to show for your, uh, for your your good living. And that's what we've paid. And that's what he and I have brought, um, out of our savings to do so. Uh, the issue here, though, getting back to it, is that we've got to protect our families and our Children and our grandchildren's future. Paul and we, the the viewers here have got to understand that this is important. They've got to understand the Civil Union bill is nothing but a face to try and legalise that and put it on the same footing as marriage. And that is you've got a nice, big, shiny gold chain there, and people are given 10% of their gross income. Very vulnerable people, many of them Paul. They changed lives. The the miracles of the lives that have been changed and what has happened in their families is fruit in itself speaks for itself. Thank you, Brian Tamaki, for coming in and Georgina Bar. Thank you very much for coming in as well. Still to come on the programme. The tall blacks, um they've broke and rolled the Olympics. Um, haven't they into that? Um, Helenio Indoor arena, But no medals, but a wonderful effort. So we're gonna the tall blacks and say thank you to the tall blacks when we come back. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1930s ; 1980s ; 2000s ; All Blacks ; Brian Tamaki ; Christianity ; Destiny Church ; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally) ; Georgina Beyer ; God ; Holmes (tv) ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Nuremberg Rally ; Off-air recording ; Paul Holmes ; People ; Stuff ; TVNZ (Television New Zealand) ; Tamaki ; Wellington ; abortion ; acceptance ; attitude ; beating ; belief ; boat ; breakdown ; cars ; casting ; change ; children ; church ; civil unions ; congregation ; convictions ; difference ; face ; family ; family values ; feelings ; football ; future ; gay ; government ; grandchildren ; happiness ; hell ; heterosexual ; homosexual ; law ; legislation ; love ; marriage ; normal ; other ; parenting ; perversion ; police ; pool ; rally ; referendum ; relationships ; rugby ; safety ; sex ; sexual orientation ; soul ; television ; time ; top ; unions ; unnatural ; values ; walking ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/georgina_beyer_and_brian_tamaki_debate_civil_unions.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089882. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.