The title of this recording is "Galathea: Into the Bush (2016)". It is described as: Hilary Penwarden talks to Ania Upstill about producing queer theatre and the production Galathea: Into the Bush. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 11th November 2016. This is an interview with Ania Upstill and Hilary Penwarden. The interviewer is Hilary Penwarden. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 23 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Hilary Penwarden talks to Ania Upstill about producing queer theatre and the upcoming production Galathea: Into the Bush. The production runs from 23 November - 3 December 2016. The content in the recording covers the decades 1950s through to the 2010s. A brief summary of the recording is: This abstract summarizes a podcast recording titled "Galathea: Into the Bush (2016)" featuring an interview between Hilary Penwarden and Ania Upstill, recorded on November 11th, 2016, in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand. The discussion explores themes around producing queer theatre and details about the upcoming production of "Galathea: Into the Bush," which ran from November 23rd to December 3rd, 2016. The podcast begins with reflections on the unique power of live theatre as an artistically satisfying medium, particularly in the digital age. Upstill emphasizes the live aspect of theatre as essential to its distinction, noting that the immediacy of performance and the potential for spontaneity cannot be replicated through film or television. The project in focus is an adaptation of John Lyly's early modern play "Galathea," revisited to include a same-sex love story untouched by heteronormative resolution. This reimagining showcases a variety of gender identities and sexual orientations seldom seen on stage. Workshopping the play with members of the queer community and youth was central to the adaptation process, aimed at addressing the lack of representation of the queer community in theatre. The inclusion of characters with diverse sexual orientations, such as asexual and gender non-conforming characters using they/them pronouns, is highlighted. Upstill discusses the significance of queer theatre in challenging societal binaries and stereotypes, lamenting the absence of opportunities for the rainbow community to see or portray themselves authentically on stage. The adaptation of "Galathea: Into the Bush," by contrast, seeks to illuminate these stories and experiences. Upstill reflects on the term "queer," which to them encompasses a spectrum of identities beyond the gender binary and heterosexual norms, aligning with their own beliefs, as they reject the binary concept of sexuality and gender. The interviewer also notes the importance of Queer Theatre in fostering empathy and understanding among different communities and raising awareness of differences. A key element discussed is the production's ability to appeal to wide audiences by using traditional comedic narrative devices and familiar themes of love and mistaken identity, while subtly introducing queer representations. The process of creating a queer-inclusive space within the theatrical performance is also discussed, such as the cited use of a Roman goddess character who welcomes all into the play's world. The play, performed in a non-traditional space, integrates the audience into the action through direct interaction, enhancing the immersive experience. The concept of participatory theatre gets explored as well, with the play embracing early modern conventions, like breaking the fourth wall, while ensuring audience comfort in terms of interaction with performers. Moreover, the conversation touches on the influence of progressive social environments and personal backgrounds, including the current political climate, on the development and reception of queer theatre. It is implicitly understood that queer theatre carries political and philosophical underpinnings that seek to break away from stereotypes and champion diversity. This is realized through the conscious casting and incorporation of progressive theatrical practices, which ultimately aim for a transformative and inclusive experience for the audience. Lastly, the podcast concludes with the optimism for future initiatives in Queer Theatre to continue challenging norms and reflecting the diversity of experiences. The recording suggests that theatre serves as a crucial space for representing multiplicity in identity and fostering a communal sense of empathy and acceptance. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  I suppose I find Theatre quite, um, artistically satisfying. I mean, I don't think it's my main form of artistic expression. And also, I think it can tell stories in a way that go maybe above and beyond what we normally see in text or in even just casual conversation. I think it's really a really powerful medium. Uh, especially now, in a time of TV and film so readily available. Uh, what [00:00:30] do you think that does for theatre Now, does that that it does that, um, inspire you to keep going with it even more when you know people can just so easily sit at home and download something on their laptop and not go out. And what does that do for you as a theatre maker when you're looking at your art, I think it challenges theatre to, uh, exploit or explore what makes theatre different. Which, I would say is the live performance aspect. Uh, you can't get [00:01:00] that level of human connection from sitting at home by yourself watching a screen. And even if you're sitting at home with other people, you know, enjoying a film or enjoying a show, uh, that art is not being made live in front of you. You actually, you're not watching the human error, and you're not really watching the skill that goes into it. Um, and the spontaneity that you can really get from theatre. So I guess I'm interested in theatre That, uh, really explores what being live means. [00:01:30] I'm not really interested in naturalistic theatre, especially naturalistic theatre in conventional theatre spaces, because it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't do what I think Theatre does best, right? So with what Anya thinks Theatre does best in mind, can you tell us about your current project at the moment? Sure. Um, So, Galia Colin into the Bush is an adaptation of the early modern play [00:02:00] Galia by John Lily, who was an almost exact contemporary of Shakespeare. What inspired me to look at the play in the first place was that it has a homosexual love story. Um, the basic outline of the play is or I just say that the sort of context of the play is, uh it opens. Um, with the threat of a sea monster, there's a sea monster that's sent every five years to eat the most beautiful, beautiful [00:02:30] or actually the beautiful is the word used in the play The beautiful version. Um, and there's two fathers in the original and parents in our version, uh, who dress their beautiful daughters up as boys and send them into the forest where, of course, it being an early modern play. They meet and fall in love and at the end of the original. So they've dressed up their Children separately, each separately thinking that they have the beautiful daughter. So they want to protect her and send send them out as a forest dressed as boys, not knowing that the other other [00:03:00] parent is doing that as well. Yes, yeah, exactly. And the classic misunderstanding classic misunderstanding. Um, and they don't really like being dressed as boys, and they're a bit upset about the whole situation and they find gods in the forest, and it all becomes a bit mixed up. And there's a lot of fun to be had, uh, in the original, Um, the Venus comes in at the end as part of resolving the whole plot twists. I won't give it all away and [00:03:30] agrees that they can be in love but promises to turn one into a boy. So that they can be together, which is heterosexual. Yeah. So it's like I say, homosexual attraction, which is turned into a hes relationship, which is the resolution, the happy resolution I and this version, that doesn't happen. Uh, and it actually ends with a homosexual wedding, which, of course, is a great way of celebrating 30 years of homosexual law reform. Yeah, tell me more about, um, why you chose [00:04:00] Galia in terms of, uh, you know, being excited about 30 years of homosexual law reform and is is, um, and maybe your background as a theatre maker and working with early modern Elizabethan ticks. Sure. So I've done a lot of Shakespeare. I've directed a lot of Shakespeare. I've actually done a lot of Shakespeare. Uh, it's a particular I guess. Interesting skill set of mine. Uh, what I find intriguing about early Modern Theatre is is actually the the theatrical conventions [00:04:30] as well as the language. So, uh, what we see, actually well, in New Zealand now at the pop up globe, but or at Shakespeare Globe in London, which is, you know, the actors talk to the audience, they can see each other. It's a very live experience, and that's what attracts me to it. Um, so, yeah, I've done a lot of early modern Drama Gate as an early modern play in its original version, in terms of Why queering it and why a queer play as a queer [00:05:00] theatre maker, I find that there's so little representation. There's so Little Theatre where we see queer characters where we see any sort of queer love. Um, and I'm using the term queer to You're really as LGBT Q. You know, all the rainbow community, Uh, I use the term queer, but it sort of like the rainbow community. Um, and it's a real shame, especially because I know so many theatre makers who [00:05:30] are a part of the rainbow community. And I think it's really hard that we are expected to participate in theatre and never see ourselves represented and never be able to play characters that are actual representations of ourselves. I mean, of course, acting is about not being yourself, but it is hard that there's there aren't even those opportunities. So when I was looking at doing Galia, I wanted [00:06:00] it to showcase um, a number of, uh, gender identities and sexualities that aren't normally seen on stage. And when I was looking at first looking at doing the play, we had a few workshops with members of the queer community and a workshop with the youth from inside out about what they wanted to see on stage. Because I don't want to just be about me like we're not all just queer ladies. Um, so yeah, I mean, [00:06:30] then the main message was, we want to see more, more and more different things. Um, something I didn't anticipate. Asexuals. So there is an asexuals character in the play, and there's a character that uses that. They then pronouns Um, yeah. So it's been an interesting, interesting journey, like a learning experience as well, which is awesome. Um, you? Yeah, you bring up the term queer a lot. And I wondering what queer means to you. And perhaps what queer theatre means to you [00:07:00] as a queer as a self identified queer person? Sure. How do you use the term? Yeah, uh I mean, I use the term queer. I say I choose to use the term queer because I'm what some people would term bisexual. But I also don't believe that it's a binary and bisexual inherently implies that it's a binary. You can love men or women or both. Um, and obviously we know that there's not just men and women, so it, you know, to me, queer resonates [00:07:30] on a more profound level. And also, I think queer applies to gender as well. I don't believe that we're either male or female. So, you know, if you if you identify as queer, it means you can allow yourself more flexibility in your gender as well as your sexuality. So you're acknowledging, like a spectrum of gender, A spectrum of both, Um and I don't Yeah, I don't feel like a typical [00:08:00] woman all the time. So why should I have to just be like I'm just this, um that said I mean I. I don't identify as gender queer, I think in the way that some people do as and it's not a strong part of my identity. I more just deny it as a binary. Um, yeah. Did that answer your question? Yeah, it does. Thank you. Um, Queer Theatre. Is that why Queer Theatre? You're right. I think we need more theatre that that challenges the binary [00:08:30] and also, um, in often in theatre. When you have characters that are part of the sort of rainbow community, they're very, very token and stereotypical and I mean, that's problematic in a lot of ways. But also we don't often see we don't see a variety of those characters. You know, like we see we usually see one lesbian in a play and like they're defining characteristic, is that they're a lesbian. [00:09:00] We see one gay man, and they're defining characteristic is that they're a gay man, and it's like these people are just people. I I tried to career gate much more like broadly in terms of creating, I think, hopefully a world in the play that is queer, not just character by character and a world in which people can be on that spectrum and not be questioned on it. And it's not the thing that defines them. So it sounds like, um, Queer Theatre to you [00:09:30] comes with its own sort of political agenda, if you like or or at least philosophy is that, um in terms of, um, the way that you set up your rehearsals and the way that you work with people and work with ideas. Is that, um are you bringing in? You're actively bringing in this philosophy and and being mindful of of the the politics around queerness [00:10:00] is that particularly in this project? I there are All of the actors are in are just are queer or not of them identify as queer, But they're all part of the rainbow community. Um and that's a big part of this project for me. I don't I mean it. I mean, Queer Theatre is a really hard thing to nail down, right? Like I mean, you could arguably say that Queer Theatre is any theatre that has, uh, relationships [00:10:30] in it that are non non straight or, you know, that involve non cisgender people. You'd actually I mean, you'd know more about about Queer Theatre than I was. How do you define Queer Theatre? Having just done an honours degree in theatre focusing on New Zealand for theatre, the interviewee switches over to the interviewer. Um, yeah. No, uh, I think it is all the things that you said, particularly around celebrating difference and and rejecting boxes [00:11:00] and binaries because society is so good at telling us that we need to be the same and putting down people that are different. And so queerness and queer Theatre to me is theatre. That raises up those differences and celebrates them in a way that people can empathise with. So it's it's that balance of look, we are different. Let's celebrate difference. But let's also do [00:11:30] that in a way that doesn't alienate people. That doesn't, um, that that encourages and fosters understanding between different communities and different cultures. That's that's a big part of it for me. And, um, there's not really in New Zealand a history of, um, strong, uh, theatre companies that have that as a man manifesto. We definitely we've had clear queer playwrights, [00:12:00] Um, but in terms of, um, bodies of theatre makers that have come together over a long period of time to keep making queer work that challenges and fosters Queer Theatre, Uh, it's doesn't really exist in New Zealand at the moment, and the way that exists that it does exist in other countries, like, um particularly, um, America and the UK. But also Canada has buddies, buddies, and bad Times Theatre, which is, um, world renowned for alternative [00:12:30] Queer Theatre. Uh, the yeah, we seem to be a little bit behind, perhaps a little bit timid in sharing our queer stories in New Zealand, which and a small small population as well. So it's that definitely, um, your project is something that I want to get behind. And, uh, speaking of that, I had another question. Oh, yes. So with the politics of Queerness and and [00:13:00] that celebrating difference and and all that goes with that and this production of Gaia into the bush, do you think, um, the project will appeal to straight people? And do you think straight audiences will, um, get as much out of this as queer people Will? They might get more out of it. Um, no, I yes, I think so. The when it's a comedy who doesn't love a good bloody comedy? It's a comedy about mistaken [00:13:30] identities, which is, you know, great. I mean, it's about, you know, falling in love, which most many people have. That experience, I would say, and it's, uh although it is quite strong in its especially its visual representation of queerness, it isn't I don't think, uh, inaccessible. It doesn't expect that the audience [00:14:00] know anything about the rainbow community coming into it. I don't think there's anything in the play that is accessible sense, except perhaps the use of they. Them pronouns. But we've kind of subtly worked that in. So one of the one of the characters corrects another character on their not use of they them pronouns. So you know, we can all have great learning learning in the room. Um, I mean, I think I should say I think straight audiences will learn more, uh, rainbow [00:14:30] audiences will resonate. I think it'll be more a more powerful experience for them because again, I don't think that or because we're so we see ourselves, we're so deprived. Yes, yes. But it's interesting that you say that. What you what you think of his career Career Theatre is, um, linked to building empathy because I think that's what theatre, as opposed to film or TV does so well. And so I think it's actually very is very important that we get straight audiences [00:15:00] I shouldn't even say straight. I mean, who knows if they actually are straight? People who see themselves as straightness even exist. Well, uh, to, um to see the play. And, um, we've had a bit of a bit of an interesting time with publicity in terms of learning, in terms of learning that that, uh, the term queer doesn't doesn't, uh people don't know what the queer means, which I think is a good a good learning I and yeah, that [00:15:30] that if you emphasise the queerness of a production too much, that may actually alienate people, which is not something that I thought of, but I mean, I grew up in Berkeley, in California, which is, you know, one of the most liberal cities in the United States, if not the most liberal. And like we had a I had a we had a family friend growing up, who taught me at Element at primary school and who was openly lesbian. So I just don't have a a barrier to it that other people might. Your high school Berkeley high school. I just text you yesterday [00:16:00] asking you, Did you go to Berkeley High? And you said why? And I said because they're staging a massive walkout right now, um, and protested the election of Trump, which I was like, Yes, you are from a very liberal, very liberal community. Um oh, maybe quickly tell me a little bit about how you, uh, how long you've been in New Zealand and your background there? Because you may have noticed that you have an American accent. Do I still, um, uh I mean, [00:16:30] I've I've lived in New Zealand for the past five years, and I finished high school in New Zealand at Wellington High, Uh, before going to university in the States. So I've lived in New Zealand, I guess, for about nine years, but consistently for the past five. Right? So you can go for citizenship this year, can you? Yes, I can. Well, that's cool. Um, great. And, uh, and in terms of, um, welcoming and people for whom the rainbow Community might be a new [00:17:00] experience, that's sort of built into the play a little bit, isn't it? In the way that you've your vision of the production, we've added in a goddess, uh, called trivia. Who's a real Roman goddess, You know, it's a great name. Uh, who is sort of the keeper of the space? Uh, she was the Roman goddess of thresholds and barriers and boundary crossings. So it's it's quite appropriate. She also officiates the wedding at the end. Um, and yes, she [00:17:30] welcomes the entire audience into the space and, uh, kind of outlines a little bit of the rules, or at least the sort of, um, how the space operates the space. The venue is also, uh, a gonna be a community space during the day, Uh, the days that the production is on, so we'll have a couple activities for the for anyone? For the the public who want to come. And what is the venue? Uh, it's the Grand Hall at the Public Trust Building on Lambton Quay, which is the corner of [00:18:00] Stout Street in Lampton Key, which is quite a is, uh, brokered through urban dream brokerage who aim to fill empty sites with art. And they've done a great job finding us a fantastic venue. Oh, tell me. Tell me a little bit more about the building. Yes, it's a historic building that's been kind of, uh, rescued and renovated, the it used to house retail, and it'll probably house retail again, but we've kind of snuck in at a point where no one [00:18:30] has decided to use it for retail. It's still a little bit under. It's not under construction. because it's probably safe. But, um, they haven't quite, you know, painted everything. And so we can potentially paint and exciting things in space. And is that, um, that location is that, uh, fitting in with your vision for the production? That kind of Yeah, well, I wanted to do it outside of the theatre. I was always aimed to be, [00:19:00] uh, site influenced. And actually, it's probably more appropriate now that it's on Lambton Quay, because the play actually starts outside. It starts in Midland Park. And the first few scenes are out there because we kind of follow the, um the girls who are dressed as boys into the bush tide. And I really wanted that sense of transition from an outside world, which is a kind of more, more, uh, socially conservative version [00:19:30] of our world. So I kind of framed it as, like, kind of like like the 19 fifties in terms of, uh, gendered, um, gender requirements. So, the you know, the girls are you would have been, you know, very like very feminine. Expected to be very feminine. And this outside world, uh, and then they sort of come into this world where those rules just don't apply, which is where most of the play takes place. So it also again, it allows the audience to transition. So they're not just [00:20:00] they They'll just have to step into a very unfamiliar and potentially terrifying rainbow world where people can might be gay. And, um, is it helpful to you, um, not having a traditional theatre space in that sense and what you're trying to do? Definitely. I don't think we would get the same people coming to the show if it was a traditional theatre space. I don't think it has the, uh, elitist kind of connotations of theatre. [00:20:30] I think it allows people to experience it in a new way. You know, they don't just come into a theatre expecting to sit down and have the lights go down. And, you know, the players are in front of them, and then the lights to go down again and the play to end. It doesn't have that feel. It allows it to be more immersive and more experiential. Uh, so, uh, is this, uh, participatory theatre that we're talking about? Here it is. I would call it involved Theatre. Um, again, It's It's very uh, I've used very early [00:21:00] modern conventions in the sense that or embraced early modern conventions because it's an early modern play. Originally, uh, in terms of the actors, talk to the audience and there's no fourth wall. You know, they the actors, might come through the audience. We have set up a system whereby audience members can indicate whether or not they feel comfortable being touched, because that was actually something that came out of the workshops that we did as people were like, Well, I don't always want to be touched by random strangers. That is fair [00:21:30] enough. We will make it clear to the actors that they should not touch you if you do not want to be touched. So, yeah, I'd say participatory Kind of definitely. Uh, yeah involved, audience involved. And that sounds also live music. Just had to throw that in there. Yeah, everyone loves some live music like a gig, but not. Is there anything else about the play that you would like us to know? Yeah, I think [00:22:00] it's been really It's just been really great working on something that's so openly queer. You know, I think often we kind of like halfway go to the Queer Theatre by, like making a character queer or making a relationship gay. And it's like this has just been, like, all or nothing. You know, the the start of the play is great, but that's intentional to kind of highlight, like the limits of that world view. [00:22:30] Um, and it actually feels, uh, very important to be working on it now, given the recent election of Donald Trump as president, um, it's a chance, I think, to create something that, uh, goes against that rhetoric of hatred and isolation and, yeah, just a fear of otherness. And it's a comedy. [00:23:00] And with that, with that in mind is, are there plans for you to keep, um, making Queer Theatre in the future? I'm not sure. Yeah, yes. Uh, but I should actually ask you that question because you're the one who's been talking about Queer Theatre. But we may be over our interview time, so just leave that as a little little dangling. Um, question. Oh, thank you. Thank you. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1950s ; 2010s ; Ania Upstill ; Berkeley (California, USA) ; Berkeley High School (California, USA) ; Buddies in Bad Times Theatre (Canada) ; California ; Canada ; Donald Trump ; Galathea: Into the Bush (play) ; Hilary Penwarden ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986) ; Houston ; InsideOUT Kōaro ; Job ; John Lyly ; Korea ; LGBT ; Lambton Quay ; London ; Midland Park ; People ; Pop-up Globe (Auckland) ; Public Trust building ; Space ; The Globe Theatre (London) ; Toronto ; Trivia (Roman goddess) ; United Kingdom ; United States of America ; Urban Dream Brokerage ; Venus (Roman goddess) ; Wellington ; Wellington High School ; William Shakespeare ; Youth ; academia ; acting ; activities ; agenda ; alienation ; artist ; arts ; asexual ; attraction ; audience ; balance ; barriers ; being yourself ; binary ; bisexual ; boxes ; building ; career ; children ; citizenship ; comedy ; community ; conservative ; conversation ; difference ; diversity ; drama ; dream ; dresses ; early modern theatre ; empathy ; expression ; family ; fear ; film ; found space ; fun ; future ; gay ; gender ; gender identity ; gods ; growing up ; hate ; heterosexual ; history ; homosexual ; homosexual law reform ; identity ; identity politics ; internet ; isolation ; journey ; ladies ; language ; law ; legs ; lesbian ; love ; marriage equality ; media ; music ; non-binary ; other ; parents ; participatory theatre ; performance ; policy ; politics ; primary school ; pronouns ; queen ; queer ; queer theatre ; rainbow ; relationships ; representation ; rhetoric ; school ; sea ; sexuality ; shame ; sin ; spaces ; spectrum ; stereotypes ; storytelling ; straight ; study ; television ; theatre ; theatrical ; time ; tokenism ; touch ; trans ; transgender ; transition ; trust ; understanding ; university ; urban ; virginity ; wedding ; women ; work ; workshop ; writing. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/galathea_into_the_bush.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089769. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.