This text file contains detailed information about an audio recording on PrideNZ.com. It includes the following sections: DESCRIPTION, SPEAKERS, SUMMARY, KEY CONTENT TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS], TRANSCRIPT WITH TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS], HUMAN VERIFIED TRANSCRIPT, KEYWORDS, REFERENCES, RELATED CONTENT AND FOOTNOTE. 

## START DESCRIPTION
The title of this recording is "Feminine Viewpoint (11 July 1973)". It is described as: n this Feminine Viewpoint programme broadcast on National Radio, host Lindsay Perigo discusses homosexuality and looks at the possibility of homosexual law reform in New Zealand. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 11th July 1973. The duration of the recording is 40 minutes, but this may not reflect the actual length of the broadcast. The content in the recording covers the 1970s decade.
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## START SPEAKERS
This is a recording of a broadcast and features the voices of Anthony Taylor, Bernard Tottman, Charles Harrison, Jim Robb, John Stevenson, Lindsay Perigo, Troy Perry and Walter Hurst. These names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document.
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## START SUMMARY
Broadcast on National Radio on 11 July 1973, this Feminine Viewpoint episode explores attitudes toward homosexuality and the growing call for law reform in New Zealand. Host Lindsay Perigo presents a wide range of voices including Rev. Troy Perry, Prof. Jim Robb, Dr Anthony Taylor, Detective Chief Inspector John Stevenson, Rev. Charles Harrison, Father Bernard Tottman, Very Rev. Walter Hurst, and three young gay men named Michael, Paul, and Laurie. Together they provide a snapshot of the tensions between religion, law, psychology, policing, and lived experience during the early 1970s. Perigo opens with an excerpt from American minister Rev. Troy Perry, founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, who recounts being attacked while handing out leaflets at a gay rights demonstration. Perry’s humour and resilience highlight both the hostility faced by gay men and his Christian conviction that love and acceptance should prevail. Perigo then sets the scene, tracing homosexuality through ancient cultures and British history, noting how repressive laws have never eradicated same-sex attraction. He outlines the severe penalties under New Zealand’s 1893 Criminal Code, which once included flogging and life imprisonment, and the gradual reforms leading up to the 1961 Crimes Act. Professor Jim Robb, former president of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society, explains the group’s goal of decriminalising consensual sexual relations between adult men. Robb argues that homosexuality is an innate condition, not a choice, and that criminalisation only adds unnecessary fear and anxiety. He believes law reform would allow gay men to contribute openly to society and live without the constant threat of prosecution. Dr Anthony Taylor, a psychology professor at Victoria University, dismisses claims of genetic or hormonal causes, suggesting instead that family dynamics - particularly inadequate parental models - play a major role. He cautions against over-generalising, saying that public prejudice often comes from fear of one’s own sexual uncertainties. Taylor recalls that even a decade earlier the NZBC would not allow the word “homosexual” on air, a sign of how taboo the topic remained. Detective Chief Inspector John Stevenson presents the police view, expressing strong bias by linking homosexuality with crime, robbery, and prostitution. He insists that the police do not entrap men in public toilets but that homosexuals themselves provoke encounters. His comments reveal widespread institutional prejudice and moral judgment within the justice system. Religious leaders then weigh in. Rev. Troy Perry returns to challenge literal readings of scripture, pointing out inconsistencies in how Christian communities apply biblical prohibitions. He insists salvation comes through Christ’s love, not through rigid adherence to Paul or Moses. Anglican priest Rev. Charles Harrison states that Christ taught principles rather than rules. He believes compassion must be central to Christian response but warns that reform could be misread as approval of homosexuality. For him, heterosexuality remains the norm, though love and understanding must guide any moral stance. Father Bernard Tottman, speaking for the Catholic viewpoint, agrees that homosexuality is an abnormality but argues that imprisonment is an unhelpful response. Instead, he advocates treatment and rehabilitation, viewing homosexuality as something to be cured or managed through patience and moral discipline. Very Rev. Walter Hurst, Dean of St Paul’s Cathedral and a Samaritan counsellor, supports reform more openly. He condemns cruelty toward homosexuals, describing the prejudice he observes among the “so-called normal” population. Hurst regards hostility as rooted in fear and hypocrisy, believing that those seen as abnormal deserve compassion and help rather than punishment. He compares the situation to the treatment of alcoholics or drug users, insisting that understanding, not rejection, is the way forward. The programme concludes with a candid discussion among three young gay men - Michael, Paul, and Laurie - who reject both the medical and moral pathologising of their sexuality. They dismiss Stevenson’s claim that homosexuals have a criminal tendency and challenge stereotypes of “bitchiness” popularised by films like The Boys in the Band. Each describes a different view of how sexuality develops: one sees it as acquired through life experiences, another as a mix of genetics and environment. All agree that society focuses too narrowly on sexual acts rather than on emotional connection and love. They emphasise that sexuality is only a small part of who they are and express anger that the public sees them merely as sexual categories rather than whole people. When asked whether they would become heterosexual if it were possible, all three reply firmly no. They see nothing sick or shameful in being gay and refuse to be defined by prejudice or pity. Their words capture a quiet self-confidence emerging in New Zealand’s pre-reform era - a determination to live authentically despite social hostility. Perigo closes by noting political movement: both the Labour and National Party conferences have passed remits supporting law reform, and Justice Minister Dr Martin Finlay is willing to back a private member’s bill. Though no sponsor has yet come forward, momentum is clearly building. The 1973 Feminine Viewpoint broadcast stands as one of the earliest examples of national media in Aotearoa tackling homosexuality with a degree of seriousness and breadth. It captures the competing voices shaping public opinion just over a decade before reform was finally achieved in 1986.
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## START KEY CONTENT TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS]
The following timestamps note when speakers or events begin in the full transcript: [00:00:01] Rev. Troy Perry starts. [00:00:35] Host Lindsay Perigo starts. [00:07:16] Prof. Jim Robb, former President of the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society starts. [00:10:57] Dr Anthony Taylor starts. [00:16:48] Detective Chief Inspector John Stevenson starts. [00:21:30] Rev. Troy Perry starts. [00:23:15] Father Charles Harrison (Anglican) starts. [00:26:45] Father Bernard Tottman (Catholic) starts. [00:29:49] Very Rev. Walter Hurst, Dean of St Paul's Anglican Cathedral starts. [00:33:45] Homosexual roundtable discussion with Michael, Paul and Laurie starts.
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## START TRANSCRIPT WITH TIMESTAMPS [HH:MM:SS]
After we were there the second day, I was passing out leaflets and I was dressed in my clerical guard as I am now. As I was giving out leaflets, I noticed an individual coming up the street and, and this woman, when she reached me, I said, here, madam, would you like one of our leaflets? And she hit me with her purse and, uh, like an idiot. I didn't stop. I said, Madam, are you sure you don't want one of my leaflets? So she hit me again. And she said, if I had my way, all of you [00:00:30] perverted individuals would be locked up into jail and the key thrown away, this is an American minister preaching to his congregation. He's telling of an incident that occurred during a demonstration he was involved in. His name is Troy Perry, and he's a homosexual. His congregation consists of homosexuals and those in the demonstration were homosexuals. A matter of concern, it would seem to the lady with the purse, Mr. Perry and his fellow [00:01:00] homosexuals make up an estimated 5% of the American male population. New Zealand figures would probably be compar. In most states of America, homosexual acts are punishable by law, and as far as men are concerned, so too are they in New Zealand? In this program when examined male homosexuality, the problems faced as well as posed by the homosexual with particular reference to the New Zealand law as it is now, [00:01:30] and as reformers would have it. It is worth bearing in mind that homosexuality isn't a recent phenomenon. Research would indicate that in most primitive societies as well as the earlier advanced civilizations, some form of homosexual activity was considered normal and acceptable. Sometimes it's found linked with religious beliefs and ceremonials. A noted anthropologist, sir Richard Burton stated that in Rome as in Egypt, the [00:02:00] temples of Isus were centers of sodomy and similar practices took place among grand priestly casts from Mesopotamia to Mexico and Peru. Dr. Daniel West in his now classic book on the subject states that in classical Greece, homosexuality achieved social recognition as an acceptable form of love between males, most appropriate between youths and older men who could instruct them in the manly virtues. Writers [00:02:30] pictured homosexual love as a lofty passion that raised men above themselves. In his symposium, Plato wrote, and if there were only some way of contriving that a state or army should be made up of lovers and their loves, they would be the very best governors of their own city. Abstaining from all dishonor and emulating one another in honor. And when fighting at each other's side, although a mere handful, they would overcome the [00:03:00] world, the various coward would become an inspired hero, equal to the bravest at such a time love would inspire him. The Spartan and Theban armies were organized on just this theory. The study of the sexual habits of Greece and Rome serves to confirm that homosexual instincts soon make themselves apparent whenever they're given a free reign. While the history of British civilization shows that a severely repressive attitude on the other hand [00:03:30] has consistently failed to eradicate them, even in periods when detection meant death, the practice was known to be widespread. It says Daniel West. A curious little 18th century book entitled, plain Reasons for the Growth of Sodomy in England shows that even in those days, homosexuality was considered a social problem. The author attributes the prevalence of the vice to the mollycoddling of boys and the cultivation of effeminate [00:04:00] habits by young men. He depl the custom of sending young boys to kindergartens run by women. He thinks the young men's habits of foppish attire, continental manners, inance and tea drinking breed milk shops, the influence of the Italian opera he considers particularly pernicious for it is well known. He alleges that sodomy is thought a trivial matter in Italy. So that no sooner does a [00:04:30] stranger set foot in Rome than the Procurers rushed to ask if he wants a woman or a young man. The 19th century was full of scandals from the suicide of the foreign Minister Castle Ray, because of the fear of his being denounced to the imprisonment of the playwright Oscar Wilde. After three sensational trials commenting on the wild affair, the famous newspaper editor, WT Stid, made this observation. Should everyone found guilty [00:05:00] of Oscar Wilde's crime, be imprisoned. There'd be a very surprising immigration from Eaton, Harrow Rugby, and Winchester to the jails of Pentonville and Holloway. Oscar Wilde was convicted under Britain's Criminal Law Amendment Act, which was passed by a thinly attended House of Commons on the eve of a parliamentary recess in 1885. It provided for a maximum penalty of two years imprisonment with or without hard labor [00:05:30] for what it termed gross and decency between males. Wild was given the full penalty. Hadie but known it, he got off lightly for under the criminal code introduced in New Zealand in 1893. Sodomy became punishable by life imprisonment with hard labor, plus one, two, or three floggings, depending on the offender's age, and for indecent assault on a male by a male 10 years with hard labor again with one, two, [00:06:00] or three floggings. The flogging provisions were deleted in 1941. The hard labor provisions in 1954, the last amendment was made in 1961 when the New Crimes Act laid down a maximum penalty of 10 years jail for indecency by a man on a boy under 16, five years for indecency between males over 16, 14 years for sodomy on a female or boy under 16 and [00:06:30] seven years for sodomy. In any other case. But even in 1961, there were many who felt that in continuing to treat homosexuality as a criminal offense, parliament was not taking into sufficient account the growing number of arguments such as those embodied in Britain's Wolf in report of the late fifties, in favor of legalizing homosexuality between consenting male adults with provision being retained for the protection of minors. And it was to promote this [00:07:00] very aim that the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society was founded in 1967. The immediate past president of the Society, professor JH Robb, gives his view of the society's objectives. Well, in effect, uh, we would like to see homosexuals put in pretty much the same situation as heterosexuals that in other words, uh, have their, um. Private behavior regarded [00:07:30] as, uh, their own affair and for the law to take cognizance, uh, only of those aspects of their behavior, which makes its impact. Directly on the rest of society. But of course, the traditional Western view of homosexuality is that it's a perversion. I wonder in the light of the fact that these views are still probably fairly widely held if we're not being a little premature and seeking law reform. Uh, no. I don't think we're being, uh, premature. I think this is a, a, a [00:08:00] problem that the law reforms of course, of course, have got to deal with, but the, um. I think it's becoming more and more widely recognized that the condition of homosexuality is, um, something over which the individual homosexual has, uh, no control. It. It's of course true that it's possible for the, uh, homosexual to, um, uh, not to take part in, uh, sexual activity just as it's possible for a [00:08:30] heterosexual not to take part in, in sexual activity. But, um. Not very, uh, not a very easy, uh, restraint for either to exercise. Does the law, as it stands, really pose many problems. I mean, the incidence of prosecution these days is pretty minimal. Would a law change really make any difference in the day-to-day life of a homosexual? It'd make, uh, a great deal more in the, the day-to-day life of a homosexual, uh, than it will in the, um, in the court [00:09:00] figures. Um. It should certainly take a great, uh, burden of anxiety, uh, off, uh, homosexuals. Um, and, uh. It should certainly make, uh, a good many homosexuals, um, with real, uh, ability and, uh, with, um, qualities that they can, uh, make use of in society. It should make many of them much more willing to, um, [00:09:30] take a more active part in, in the life of society without feeling that they're going to. Bring attention on themselves. Society would be, uh, demonstrating a, uh, a, a degree of tolerance to, um, a, a set of its members who, uh, they must emphasize again, have not chosen to be the way they are, uh, who simply, uh, have no. Uh, control over their [00:10:00] condition and to have a great, uh, burden, uh, placed on them in terms of, uh, uh, the kind of behavior, uh, relating to their condition, which is allowed by society, no control over their condition. If what Professor Rob says is true, what does in fact cause a person to be homosexual? Theories are bound, but leaving aside tea drinking and Italian opera, they appear to [00:10:30] fall into two basic categories. First, those which contend that there's a congenital cause that is one, has a genetic homosexual predisposition. And second, those which contend that homosexuality is a psychological effect of external circumstances operating during the impressionable years of one's life. To date, the latter seemed to have enjoyed greater acceptance. Dr. Anthony Taylor, professor of psychology at Victoria University [00:11:00] is one who is skeptical about congenital theories. Oh, no, there's no evidence. No substantial evidence that homosexuality is the result of defective genes or hormonal, uh, imbalance. Well, what can we say then, with any degree of definition about what causes homosexuality? I suppose we can say that, uh, it, uh, the, the, the most reliable evidence comes from [00:11:30] defective, uh, inter. Uh, parental child relationships, uh, the provision of inadequate, uh, parental models that if you are a male, you need something of a, um, strong, kind, courteous, uh, an admirable father, not necessarily fulfilling the masculine. Uh, prototype, you know, of the male Chauvin in his pig. By any [00:12:00] means, you need a mother who, um, can respect you for what you are a male and not again, try to, um, dis distort and, and twist. Your, your own, uh, psychological inclinations and your social behavior to fit an image that she has. There are a surprising number of men who've been manipulated into acting in, uh, curiously, uh, [00:12:30] effeminate ways. But we can't generalize that all homosexuals are effeminate. Tell me. Oh, no. Oh no. We cannot. Um. For those, uh, the, the group that I've just mentioned are, are those in which there is a, a clear cut, um, a distortion of, um, parent child images and identifications? Are these the people who come under the label of transvestites? Um, well, they are. The [00:13:00] sexes is. The sexual confusion is marked, but they need not only be transvestites, some people who are very sexually confused, um, do get into such extreme states of emotional disorder that they can in that they, they called fall into the category of. Neurotics. Um, others are transvestites, others are transsexuals and others are hermaphrodites. So you pick one [00:13:30] of them and you see one of the four possible, uh, possible groups that occur to me at the moment. Well, would it be true to assume that the behavior of transvestites. Uh, which is by its very nature, more conspicuous, has led to a coloring of the public's attitude towards homosexuals. Have they confused, sort of cross sexualism with the homosexuality? Well, I dunno about the public. We've gotta be, take care not to malign the public. There's far more good strength [00:14:00] and good sense on such matters. Then many of us, so-called experts, um, allow them to, to have, we don't give 'em credence for the, for the good judgment that's often there. They, the members of the public are far more tolerant of deviations and various small groups. It's only when, for a variety of reasons, best known to themselves. People get, uh, offended and, and incensed that they then act. Sort of legally and try to invoke the majesty of the law to [00:14:30] suppress certain groups. And in so doing, they make the lot of these minority groups far worse than it, uh, than it, uh, need be, and they accentuate a problem. Is it revulsion at what people imagine other things homosexuals do, or is it an acquired prejudice or is it perhaps a fear of one's own inattendance? Well, uh, I put my money essentially on this, on the latter. A fear of one's own in attendances, which then [00:15:00] makes you, um, invade against anyone who would ask that the matter be looked at soberly and objectively it's, uh. In my experience, a a, a curious group of people who will not, can hardly bear to, to mention the word after all. Um, I do recall having a, um, a book review discussion on NZBC some 12 years [00:15:30] ago when I was told that the word homosexual needs should not be mentioned. I am puzzled by the delay now, 15 years of delay since the Wolfenden report, 1957 that came through. Uh, I would think that there's, in the past there was more Tim Timidity. On the part of our political leaders than there is today. And I'm quite confident that those who are in tune with a wider group of people in the [00:16:00] community cannot but reach the conclusion that there's good sense in the homosexual law reform movement that's, that's now, um, acting very soberly and in my view, very properly in getting this matter dealt with others who play a prominent part in getting this matter dealt with. Are the police, it is they, of course, whose job it is to enforce the law. And in so doing, and if the impressions of Detective Chief Inspector John Stevenson, or any indication they form a rather poor [00:16:30] picture of homosexuals, not that the police according to him and actively set about tracking them down to bring them to court. In fact, Mr. Stevenson claims if a homosexual is being blackmailed and goes to them seeking protection from the blackmailer. He will be given that protection by the police. I have given this undertaking myself, and I know of no police officer who wouldn't do so. We regard blackmail as a serious crime, and we are, are, uh, [00:17:00] quite prepared to offer, uh, the immunity that we can in order to see that a more serious crime is brought to book. Can we talk a little about homosexual prostitution? It's something that's been in the news fairly recently. Is the incidence of this high and how did the police deal with it? Yes, it is, it, uh, forms a difficulty for the police. We have charged some of these with, uh, uh, offenses under our police offenses act of being idled and disorderly.[00:17:30] But, uh, stemming from homosexual, prostitution comes a very real problem, and that's that of robbery. And very often those who are concerned about homosexual reform consider that they see homosexuals as the victims of robbery. Well, what we are getting is an alarming incident where homosexuals, transvestites are, uh, being used to entice. People away from drinking places and other places of resort in our [00:18:00] cities. And, uh, they in fact are committing the robberies. And, uh, this is our experience. Wherever you have a, um, wherever you have a particular perversion, it seems to attract other forms of crime. And we get homicides stemming from the same source. And do you really believe though, that this propensity for crime is inherent in homosexuality itself? I think it is. And I don't, I can't see how any, uh, any uh, uh, [00:18:30] alleviation as far as the law is concerned is going to materially help this. I wonder if it's a little unfair that we should judge homosexuals by the attitude of a few who flaunt themselves. Uh, I'm not judging them at all. I'm merely telling you of my experiences in the practical field. And these are those that we have a great, uh, deal of difficulty with. The, uh, uh, the couple who, uh, are said to, uh, have a longstanding homosexual [00:19:00] relationship, something, uh, in the kin to the, the movie, the, uh, uh, the odd couple. Um, they're fairly rare. Um, I find that, uh, the general trend among homosexuals, and I've known them over a wide area and for a long time, is that they, uh, they seek titillation of an appetite by seeking new fields, uh, very often. And the places of homosexual resort that we know exist in our bigger cities, uh, seem to [00:19:30] cater for this appetite to look for new pairings and new, uh, partners. Well, there's one aspect of police behavior as far as these resorts are concerned. That does seem just a little seamy, and that is policemen will go into a public toilet and plant themselves there to tempt a homosexual who comes, um, on the lookout, on the hunt, as you would say. Um, do you feel entirely happy about this way of going about. Things. Well, I'd be concerned if I thought that police were setting up to entrap [00:20:00] deliberately. And I know of about five or six cases in my experience in the last, uh, four or five years, where young policemen in plain clothes, and these are detectives who have been working for me, have had a, uh, a positive homosexual approach made to them, uh, when they were using the toilet for their own, uh, legitimate. Purposes and with no thought of any planting at all. And, uh, I know from the complaints that we receive from members of the public that there are [00:20:30] toilets in every town, uh, where homosexuals hunt, and they are likely to have this approach. Now if they policemen. Is happens to be present and he has this type of approach made to him, uh, then fine. I consider that, uh, we're entitled to bring the offender. This is the hunting homosexual that I'm talking about because he, uh, um, uh, obviously would make the same approach to, uh, to any young male who was [00:21:00] using the toilet. But do the police plant themselves as an act of policy? No, not at all. Any law prohibiting a certain form of conduct has an implied moral basis, and the moral opposition to homosexuality seems to have been based over the past thousand years on grounds of religion, specifically Jewish and Christian beliefs. Father Charles Harrison will comment on this shortly, but first, let's pursue the Reverend Troy Perry's [00:21:30] argument with his lady protagonist a little further. And she said, if I had my way, all of you perverted individuals would be locked up into jail. And the key thrown away. I said, Madam, you know something? That's a wonderful Christian attitude you have. She said, do you know what the Old Testament says? I said, I sure do. It says it's a sin for a woman to wear a red dress, man to wear cotton shirt and wool and pants. Together. Eat shrimp, oysters, or lobster. Your steak too rare. She said, that's not what I'm talking about.[00:22:00] I said, I know it's not. You're going to tell me that Moses didn't like homosexuals, and I'm going to agree, but he didn't like women wearing red dresses, men wearing cotton shirt and wool and pants, eating shrimp, oysters or lobster. Your steak. Too rare. And somehow the Christian Church has forgotten all about that. She said, well. She said, do you know what the Apostle Paul said? I said, I sure do. He said For women to be silent, not to speak.[00:22:30] She said, that's still not what I mean. I said, I know it's not, you're going to tell me in Romans 1 26 through 28, in one Corinthians six and nine, and in one Timothy Paul didn't like homosexuals, and I'm going to agree he didn't, but he didn't like women. He didn't like long-haired guys or short-haired women. He didn't care about slave one way or the other. And yet the Christian Church here [00:23:00] again, has convenient. Forgotten about that, and I said, I'm not saved by the blood of Paul, and I'm not saved by the blood of Moses. I'm saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Father Harrison. What the Reverend Troy Perry seems to be saying here is that while it may be true that sanction for homosexuality and law reform may not be possible to get from St. Paul or Moses. [00:23:30] It is possible to get the sanction from Christ. Is this so not? So? The difference between both Paul and Moses on the one hand and Christ on the other is that the first two laid down rules, the other didn't. He laid down principles. When you lay down rules, they're always circumscribed by the age and the place in which you lay them down. [00:24:00] When you lay down a principle, it stands the test of time and is of universal application so that the Christian now has to say in following Christ, which is what I understood Mr. Perry to be saying, he rises above mere legalistic formulations and says, I will apply a law, namely of love. To the circumstances of [00:24:30] my day, and it is in those terms that the question should be asked of the modern Christian. Alright, well, if we apply this principle of universal love, what stand does it lead us to? On the subject of homosexuality? It leads us to a universal compassion, not only to the homosexual, but to all the people affected by the homosexual. Including, for instance, little boys. [00:25:00] Well, what will this mean in terms of law reform? It would mean that you could permit a degree of liberalizing provided you could guarantee the terms in which the law reformists in this area. Ask for it. Namely that it shall be between consenting adults in private. But my fear is that if [00:25:30] you did give that liberalizing, you might fall into two errors. First, you might be taken to be liberalizing more than you had actually said. You might be going along with a general permissiveness. That is to say you might open the door to pity when you didn't mean to open it. And secondly, you might be giving the impression that you [00:26:00] regarded homosexuality as a norm. Now it is not a norm. Heterosexuality is the norm. And there is a discipline to be required of the treatment of all human sexuality, homo heero, even bestiality. I'm afraid that if you do this thing, you might be on quite sound Christian grounds in doing it, [00:26:30] but what you are taken to be doing might be quite a different kettle of fish. Father Charles Harrison is giving his individual view as an Anglican priest. His reservations are shared by Father Totman of the Roman Catholic Church. He feels that homosexuality is definitely a legitimate object of judicial concern. I feel personally, and I think I'd have a great deal of support in my church for saying that, um, that the law should regard [00:27:00] homosexuality as an abnormality. It shouldn't treat it as something which is. Um, lawful or legitimate behavior now, um, I believe that in this we're supported by the great number of people in the community. The community as such, I think, would regard homosexuality as an abnormality, and for that reason, the civil law should uphold. And state it to be an abnormal state. But is there any biblical authority [00:27:30] for specifically making homosexual conduct punishable by civil law? Um, I wouldn't think so. Uh, and I don't think that homosexual conduct should be punishable, um, not necessarily punishable. Um, I think it's in this area that we could agree with the reform of the law. Not changing the law itself, not making homosexuality legal, because I think that would be a mistake and I'd be [00:28:00] against the legalizing of homosexuality. As such, now the present sanction for homosexuality is jail. Um, that is not always the answer. In fact, in very few cases, does it do any good? It doesn't do any good to the victim. And it certainly doesn't do society any good. It, it could well confirm a victim in his, um, abnormality. And so we would agree [00:28:30] that the sanction to the law should be changed. I would like to see, uh, something substituted for, uh, um, a jail penalty, for example, if we could, um, have. Treatment for the homosexual, substituted for the penalty. That now applies. But if a person can't be reeducated and if they can't be brought out of this homosexual, um, [00:29:00] groove into which they've got, they can be taught to live a normal, um, happy and moral life. You mean a chased life? Yes. Yes. Even a chased life. Of course, this requires continuing care and assistance and a great deal of goodwill and cooperation on the part of the person afflicted with this abnormality. Patience and goodwill. Father Totman would be supported in this by the Dean of St. [00:29:30] Paul's Anglican Cathedral in Wellington as a counselor for the Samaritan service. Dean Hurst encounters many people with a homosexual problem. He's a supporter of law reform, believing that while homosexuality is not an exercise to be encouraged, neither should it be treated with blind contempt. Well, Dean, you move a lot around the community and you've come into contact, as you've just said, with a lot of homosexuals. I wonder how much prejudice you strike [00:30:00] among the so-called normal community against homosexuals. Is there a lot? Oh yes. There's a lot. Yes. What form does it take it? Well, it takes the form of, uh, despising them and, uh, wanting to reject them. And I think most of the opposition to any law or form will come from those who, uh, feel so badly about homosexuals that um, they either want to close them up. Or, uh, uh, castrate them or, um, [00:30:30] lash them within an inch of their lives. Do you know, all the old blah that is so much of the sort of old school attitude to these things. And, um, I think the people will use the Bible against, uh, lo of vision. They will use the, the old school tie attitude. Uh, they will use the, um, Appalachian disgusted, uh, without. Uh, trying to understand what's wrong with these unfortunate people. Where does this [00:31:00] attitude stem from, do you think? I think it's a psychological attitude, uh, caused by, uh, the sort of feeling there. But for the grace of God, go, I. Uh, I hope never to be caught up in a sexual, uh, in a homosexual act or a sexual offense or anything that can be called dirty. And uh, I feel that anybody who, uh, acts like this is beyond the pale. I think that's the [00:31:30] psychological attitude now, um, I could have thought like this, uh, I'm sure I probably did most of my life until I began to realize that the people who are abnormal are the people who need. All the help and guidance we can give them if they're prepared to submit to it, you know, that is if they'll come and, and talk to us and present their their problem, and let's help because. It, they need help. Uh, just as the alcoholic needs help, just as the drug addict needs help [00:32:00] when they're hooked on this particular thing, then they need help to get off it. It's no good shunning them, putting them in prison, uh, or, um, uh, trying to take any shortcut. It requires hours and hours of honest, diligent work with them, but in the eyes of an increasing number of homosexuals themselves, such concern is misplaced. To them, their homosexuality is not an illness, not a disorder, certainly not a perversion, and in fact, [00:32:30] not even a problem, except in so far as the law and society's attitudes are concerned. And therefore they claim for themselves the right to live their own lives free from judicial intervention and without having to incur the hostility of the community in which they form a sizable minority. I talked to three such young male homosexuals, Michael Paul and Laurie, and quoted them Detective, chief Inspector Stevenson's statement that there is inherent in the makeup of the homosexual, a propensity for crime.[00:33:00] Well, I would say it's complete and utter a rubbish, and I don't think he, he can know what he's talking about. Um, he's basing that information on, on a sample of the case that come before him, and that's really only the tip of the iceberg. There are goodness knows how many others who, who don't come into this category and, and to. To suggest from this data that they're all the same. Is, is complete nonsense. I would suggest that, um, the majority of the crimes are [00:33:30] performed by heterosexual and probably because of the heterosexual stimulus. I don't, I don't think you can single out one sexuality as being causal nature of their criminal activity. I certainly agree with Paul on that. Uh, I can't see what, why the police officer should base statements on the grounds of a person's sexuality. It seems quite irrelevant. Another thing that tends to blot the image of the homosexual world somewhat is [00:34:00] the bitchiness that is popularly supposed through films like the boys in the band to exist among homosexuals. Does it in fact. Oh, you see it sometimes, but in very small doses. It's, it's certainly not indicative of homosexuals as a group. I think it's just part of the popular stereotype. It, it doesn't apply to more than a very small section. Paul, uh, yes, I'd agree. It It's part of the stereotype, part of myth, [00:34:30] and I feel that a lot of people, particularly young people, when they're not sure how to behave, they'll fall into these stereotype. Um, limits of behavior simply because that's what they have been taught to do, but very soon they then find their own personalities. Well, there's a lot of speculation as to what causes homosexuality. Do you yourself as homosexuals feel that something you were born with or did you acquire it? [00:35:00] Well, I think I acquired it and looking back on my past life, I think I can point to. Various incidents or passages of time, um, wherein this tray was developed, but I don't think it's something which is genetic in any way. I have no doubt at all that I acquired it. Mm-hmm. I disagree completely. I think that it's a complete interplate between a genetic heritage and one's environment. Um, I [00:35:30] can't personally look back and say, I had this. Genetic heritage, it's impossible for me to do so. Um, but just by the research that has been done, it tends to show that there's some other factor other than environment. What about a classical textbook situation of the dominant mother in the weak or absent father? How do you feel about that? Well, this is, I think, only a specific case. It does occur, but I don't think it's a general rule. I don't think you can make a general [00:36:00] universal rule. Um. For any causal factor, simply because I believe it is genetic as well as environmental, um, environments differ so radically. Genetics differ very radically. You can't have it at universal law. I think it would apply far more than any other, um, cause because there has been a very high correlation shown between this particular, uh, aspect and [00:36:30] homosexuality. Definitely a, a major cause I can only fall back on people I've spoken to and I'd say consensus there is that in some cases it occurs. In other cases it doesn't. I can't see any general pain, emergency. It's also very difficult because most of the case studies that have been done, particularly the ones that have brought out this, the dominant mother that have been done on people who are either, um, inmates of a. Asylum, um, [00:37:00] people who have gone personally to a psychiatrist because they have problems or criminals. Um, and this is only a very small, very non-random group. Um, so there must be bosses. And, and it's quite probable that the psychiatric reports, um, the pe, the problems those people have stem from having a dominant mother, not because they're homosexual. You think there's perhaps a tendency on the part of society to [00:37:30] think when thinking of homosexuals more or less exclusively in terms of their sexual activities? Yes, definitely. Which makes me very angry because, um, instead of looking at it. Other people as people, they look at them as categories of, um, this man's sexuality, this woman's sexuality. Women suffer by being treated as sex objects. Um. Male homosexual sufferers being called homosexuals, and yet it's a [00:38:00] very, very minor part of one's life. I mean, most of one's life isn't spent on actual sexual activity. Yes, I would agree with that. The definition of a homosexual is someone with the ability to love. Uh, another member of and and six is sort of incidental to this, is that the love, which is the important part, which people seem to ignore. I've been highly amused when I've gone out to address groups. Uh, I've been speaking about [00:38:30] homosexuals as people and when question time comes, um, people are mainly interested in my private sex life and they've missed the whole point of the address. If some means were devi tomorrow, whereby you could become instantly heterosexual, would you? No. No, definitely not. No, not at all. Or why not? Well, go on. I'm completely happy the way I am. I don't think I'm sick, [00:39:00] diseased, or in any way affected. Um, I consider myself to be a person. I consider that I have something to contribute. Uh, and what I happen to do in bed is quite I material. Yes, I'm quite happy and, and well adjusted to what I am. I I have. No feelings at all. There's something wrong with me. 'cause I know there's not. Yes, I, I find that my sex behavior is only a tiny part of my life, but it's also [00:39:30] an integral part of my life. If that was changed, it would affect all the rest of my life and all the rest of my behavior, which means I would have to once again learn all about myself and how to live. Um, and I, I don't think that change is necessary. And although such a change is implicitly required of Paul by the present law, indications would suggest that it's going to be the law itself that changes recent annual conferences of both the [00:40:00] labor and national parties of past remits in favor of homosexual law reform. While the new Minister of Justice, Dr. Martin Finlay has stated his willingness to support a private member's bill along these lines in parliament. And although there haven't yet been any volunteers, it would seem for better or for worse to be only a matter of time.
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## START KEYWORDS
1970s, Anthony Taylor, Aotearoa New Zealand, Bernard Tottman, Bible, Boys in the Band (play/film), Charles Harrison, Coming Up, Crimes Act (1961), Criminal Code Act (1893), Egypt, God, Homosexual Law Reform, Homosexual Law Reform Society, Italy, Jim Robb, Job, John Stevenson, Lindsay Perigo, Metropolitan Community Church, Mexico, New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation (NZBC), Oscar Wilde, People, Plain Reasons for the Growth of Sodomy (1731), Plato, Richard Burton, The Odd Couple (film), Troy Perry, Walter Hurst, Wellington, Wolfenden report, acceptance, acting, activities, anxiety, army, assault, asylum, attitude, author, bear, blackmail, blood, broadcasting, change, church, classical Greek and Roman culture, code, community, compassion, congregation, crime, data, death, difference, dominant, dresses, eating, effeminate, emotional, encounters, entrapment, environment, exercise, fear, feelings, fish, gay, guidance, heritage, heterosexual, history, hit, homo, homosexual, hope, hunting, immigration, imprisonment, indecent assault, individual, intervention, justice, law, love, makeup, masculine, minority, movement, myth, nature, news, normal, objects, opera, other, oysters, pain, pants, parties, passing, passion, patience, perversion, playwright, police, policy, prejudice, prison, protection, psychiatrist, psychology, public toilet, radio, recognition, relationships, religion, research, respect, review, robbery, rugby, school, sex, sex work, sexuality, sin, social, sodomy, steak, strength, study, suicide, support, time, tolerance, transgender, treat, university, vice, victim, women, work.
## END KEYWORDS

## START REFERENCES
The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/feminine_viewpoint_11_july_1973.html.
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Generated 2025-11-29T00:22:25+13:00.
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