The title of this recording is "Do You Like What You See?". It is described as: A couple of gay photographers talk about their work. It was recorded in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand on the 27th October 1998. This is a podcast recording and features the voices of David and Ian Kember. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 15 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast a couple of gay photographers talk about their work. The content in the recording covers the decades 1980s through to the 1990s. A brief summary of the recording is: The recording, titled "Do You Like What You See?," features a candid conversation with David and Ian Kember, two gay photographers discussing their work and experiences in Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand during the 1980s and 1990s. In the 15-minute podcast, they delve into the unique insights gained from photographing individuals in intimate settings and events, revealing stories and backgrounds that may otherwise remain unspoken. The photographers discuss the distinctive qualities of photography compared to other art forms such as painting. They reflect on photography's capacity to capture split-second moments, the role of chance, and the balance of input from both the subject and the photographer. This medium allows for a spontaneous and even unpredictable portrayal of its subjects, different from the more controlled and interpretive nature of painting a portrait, where the artist's influence is much more pronounced. Additionally, the podcast addresses how the act of photography at events, such as the 'Beacons of Hope,' transforms the photographer's experience. Being behind the camera alters their emotional involvement, enabling them to capture high-quality images and perfect technical details while often missing out on the event's emotional resonance experienced by participants. An interesting tension arises in the photographers' interactions with their subjects. They highlight the varying comfort levels among members of the gay community with being photographed and identified at gay events, contrasting with the general nonchalance of straight allies present. This apprehension reflects broader issues within the gay community, such as internalized homophobia and the fear of being outed publicly, as a photograph is a permanent record that could be circulated without consent. The conversation moves towards discussing the complexities of scheduling and working with gay men and their partners, noting a cautiousness in committing their partners to be photographed without consent. This reflects a broader conversation about consent, respect, and confidence within interpersonal relationships and societal norms. The photographers further discuss the role of the Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ), which once operated out of the Gay Rights Resource Centre and contributed significantly to the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in the 1980s. Despite arson attacks, valuable materials were safeguarded by the chief librarian of the Turnbull Library and preserved for public access, though under restricted and controlled conditions to protect the privacy of individuals. Lastly, the photographers emphasize the importance of creating a visual history of the gay community - to celebrate diversity, to acknowledge accomplishments, and to document the societal dynamics which fluctuate over time. There is a recognition of the precarious nature of the community's societal acceptance, which, as history has shown, can recede as swiftly as it advances. Documenting and archiving serve as pivotal means for ensuring the visibility and legacy of the gay community in the societal narrative. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  You get into people's homes and lives and experiences in a way that you could speak to someone for 20 years and not actually go through and ask the questions about Where were you born? Who were your parents? What school did you go to? I've known this chap for 25 years, who I recently, uh, did a profile of him and his partner in his house in They'd been there 20 years, about to leave for a farmer in the I photographed [00:00:30] them in their house quite ordinary sort of situations, took a tape recorder along and said, Hey, um, where were you born? Who were your parents? And this whole wealth of information that came out? I think it's about the ability to capture a range of of moments and moods. I think it's that, um, photography, Um, can it? It's got that split second quality and and and also that generates an element of chance as well [00:01:00] that, um, it's not until you get the role of 36 photographs back that you're absolutely certain of of what you've got. Um, whereas somebody say painting portraits, um, it's a much slower process. Um, there's much more input from the artist, Um, whereas so photographer, it's fairly even between what the what the photographer puts in and what the subject puts in. And even to an extent, what chance puts in once you [00:01:30] move out of the audience and become a reporter or photographer at an event, a whole different series of mental patterns drive your experience of the day. I have been to beacons of hope and devotion as a participant and as a photographer. And there's a very, very big difference, the the first or second beacons of hope. I understand from other people and looking around looking at other people and the photographs [00:02:00] I took of other people, there was a very moving event. I came away pleased that I managed to capture high quality images. Well, that, um, that I'd done the right things. I've been in the right spot at the right time. I'd anticipated, uh, where the light was going to fall and all those kind of technical issues, and completely lost the emotional experience that everybody else or the other people in the event had. It was interesting that, um, [00:02:30] that that was supported to a large degree by the straight community. Um, so, like, the crowd was very, very mixed. Um, but I found that a number of the, um, gay people I was sort of photographing were a bit suspicious of me. I think they they were not sure that they wanted to have their pictures taken in that, you know, to be to be caught or identified as being there. Um, [00:03:00] which I found quite interesting, because the straight people in the crowd, as far as you can tell who was gay or straight, um, were not worried by this. I thought it was quite an interesting, um, thing about those people still not really being that comfortable about being identified at at a gay event, even though all the presumably all the the straight people there were there to to be supportive and and join in and, um, [00:03:30] sort of celebrate and commemorate and and the the beacons of hope event. I don't necessarily find photographing gay men easy at all. It's not I don't think at all. Um, arranging times and fitting in with their schedules and fitting in with their personalities, uh, is can be quite difficult. Um, you might have been, um, to a film festival film [00:04:00] or something, and someone who was quite friendly to you yesterday doesn't want to know you today. There's that lack of confidence in gay men That, um, is is is a real, uh, deficiency, I think, and in public can be quite off putting. Friends of mine have told me about walking down Courtney Place and actually seeing people disappearing into shops to avoid seeing them. Um, there's there's an aspect to gay culture that's, uh, most undesirable. And, [00:04:30] um, this certainly comes out in taking photographs, uh, depending on the event or where you're at and all kinds of things. But there's no excuse not to try. I suppose this gay men that I haven't photographed that I have seen that don't have that level of pride come arrogance of, [00:05:00] of having climbed mountains and got to the top. There are sufficient numbers of them who who would consider themselves failures in life. Uh, and I haven't photographed a lot. I I'd say in that category, but failure and, um, failure is a very subjective word. There might be failures in terms of what their parents think of them, but I, I can think of people that haven't succeeded financially [00:05:30] or academically. But, um, have done very clever things artistically, um, that that society has has recognised and, um, sure, um and even among some of them, I can see that degree of pride slash arrogance. Where they, um you know, I call the queen and Chris factor, you know, stuff you you know. And, um perhaps perhaps [00:06:00] I'm a bit envious of that, uh, aspect and and and and a bit of voyeur, You know, I want I want to capture on film that, um uh, stuff. You look, I think there's still a degree of sort of internalised sort of, um, homophobia. I think, um, I think we still have to be careful about, um Who we out ourselves too. [00:06:30] Um, there's there's still a large degree of hostility towards gay people. Um, and a photograph, I suppose, is a bit of a threat because it lasts. And so, although people might be happy to be at the event, um, and be seen by the other people who are sort of supportive capturing a photograph. Um, suddenly you lose control of where that image goes to, um and it may pop up somewhere that they they would wish it not to people [00:07:00] when asked nowadays to be photographed. Um, as gay men, um seemingly have the confidence now to say Yes, I'll do it. In the last week, I've asked two gay men whether they would be photographed at home and at work, and both of them have got partners. And I know both of the partners and they know me. And it was interesting to notice that both gay men said yes, but I'll have to ask my partner about [00:07:30] whether they would do it. So there wasn't that confidence to speak on behalf of other people. So we've got the first and most important level people will commit themselves, but they will not commit other people. If I, um if I asked my brother-in-law and sister if I asked my brother-in-law, Can I take a photograph of you and and and your wife? I'm sure he would speak on behalf of her. Uh, I'm I'm not sure that's necessarily right, but it [00:08:00] does say something about the level of confidence. They've got to level probably level one, But, um, in these two circumstances, um, one person felt their partner might not be too happy happy about having the photograph taken. But when it goes into the archive, who would have access to it? Legs? Or the Lesbian and gay Archives of New Zealand was, um, established, um, out of the Gay Rights Resource Centre, [00:08:30] which, um, did a lot of the lobbying through the seventies, um, and amassed, uh, a bunch of material, um, and was a mend a source for those campaigning during the 19 eighties during the Homosexual Law Reform Bill campaign. Um, following the successful passing of the campaign, the, um, the rooms that the material was held in were were attacked by an arsonist, and some of the material was lost, and a lot of it [00:09:00] was smoke damaged. Um, and at that time, the chief librarian of the Turnbull Library offered, um, safe accommodation for the material in the Turnbull Library because he recognised that it was a nationally and even internationally significant, um, resource. So it was, um, transferred to the Turnbull Library and and the organisation was renamed and incorporated under a trust board, um, to become ends as it now is, [00:09:30] um, the material is, um, both books and, um, serials, periodicals, magazines, from all over the world. Um, but an important part of it is personal papers, Um, that people have left diaries and notebooks and photograph collections. Um, there are also the organisational papers of various groups. Um, the AIDS foundation, for example. The early papers, um, are lodged [00:10:00] there. Um, access to the collection is through, um, the Turnbull library staff. Um, there is quite a, um a a good and involved agreement agreement with the the library, um, about terms of access and that sort of thing. So there are only specific staff who have access to the material. Um, and they are sort of appointed as as curators by the the trust board. Um [00:10:30] and there's it. It relies on a good degree of of goodwill between the library and the and the trust, Um, which happily to date has been very good. The purpose in documenting gay issues is that as abnormal as gayness as a society, it is normal. What we know from the animal world that homosexuality is, in fact, part of the everyday activities of quite of animal species, [00:11:00] the perverseness or the so-called perverseness. That society has placed upon us as gay men lesbians, Um, appears to be totally misplaced That, um if you like the the architect of the human species had a had a sense of humour and had this degree of Yin and Yan about the thing that was created in that maybe 80% of society or 90% of society was going to [00:11:30] to use their skills and bodies and emotions in one way. But there was this other side of the coin all the time, the yin and the yang. And, um uh, the if you like, it's the survival or the progress of gaming in society is, in a way, reflects the maturity or lack of maturity of the societal base from which [00:12:00] they come from, um, coming from Greek and Roman society through the middle and and dark and middle Ages into the period of Renaissance and, uh, the industrial revolution through to the colonisation of New Zealand. You've pretty well got everything from black to white in terms of how it came in, uh, or or witches or deviants have been treated. Now I feel at the present time we may have even climbed [00:12:30] the top of the cliff. We may be at the uh, extrem of liberal society. There are enough. There's enough evidence around the moment to suggest that there are strong, fundamental pressures. If the economy slumps and we go into a a fairly long recession, it may be, in fact, that it's a fairly family and home government that's elected that some of the liberal, um, values that have been espoused. [00:13:00] We may not be able to afford them any longer. EEO and those movements in the public service and unemployment may in fact deteriorate. Um, I was at, um, cabaret last week and thought, Hey, listen, this is 1935 1937 or something, and all of a sudden, you know, this all disappeared This wonderful free society that that was happening in Berlin, it was pulled away like a as quickly as a carpets removed off the floor. And [00:13:30] this is, um, one of the important things I think in in documenting photographically, uh, or having some record of the activities of people in society today because it will change. It won't last forever. Um, so what we see in in the newspapers and on television and the homes programme and that sort of thing, it all seems like it's all happening and will go on forever. But it doesn't. And, uh, the record certainly disappear, too. [00:14:00] And, uh, I'm hoping, you know, to sort of start thinking in terms of, um, certainly the gay part of my collection of of the 1st 1000 images, the 1st 10,000 images and in the 1st 100,000 images. That's the sort of volume I'm talking about. I mean, 1000 images is only 30 rolls of film. Um, 10,000 is only 300 100,000 is probably only, you know, 3 4000 [00:14:30] rolls of film. It's actually not that long. It's only from bay in length of film. It's not that much. Um, but, uh, gay men in Wellington and in New Zealand society offer an enormous lot of different things, but support of things that that that feed the backbone of normal society in the arts and government administration, and in in the cultural and ambient life of Wellington and, um, [00:15:00] it it may not be there forever. It certainly won't be there in the same shape and form. And, um, I can't predict how it's going to go, but, um hey, we're beautiful people. Let's record ourselves. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 1980s ; 1990s ; Alexander Turnbull Library ; Aotearoa New Zealand ; Beacons of Hope (Wellington) ; Berlin ; Cabaret (musical) ; David ; Devotion (Wellington) ; Holmes (tv) ; Homosexual Law Reform ; Ian Kember ; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ) ; Paul Holmes ; People ; Quentin Crisp ; Stuff ; Wellington ; access ; activities ; archives ; arson ; artist ; arts ; audience ; board ; books ; cabaret ; change ; community ; confidence ; culture ; difference ; economy ; emotional ; failure ; family ; film ; film festival ; friends ; future ; gaming ; gay ; government ; homophobia ; homosexual ; hope ; internalised homophobia ; law ; lesbian ; library ; lobbying ; magazines ; newspapers ; normal ; other ; painting ; parents ; passing ; photography ; photography (film) ; profile ; programme ; public service ; queen ; resource ; revolution ; school ; straight ; support ; survival ; time ; top ; trust ; unemployment ; values ; visual arts ; walking ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/do_you_like_what_you_see.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089170. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.