The title of this recording is "Graeme Kane". It was recorded in Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington on the 16th March 2011. Graeme Kane is being interviewed by Gareth Watkins.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 13 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Graeme Kane from Australia talks about attending the human rights conference. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: This summary provides an overview of an audio recording featuring an interview with Graeme Kane, a counselling psychologist from Melbourne, Australia. Recorded on March 16, 2011, in the Wellington Town Hall, New Zealand, Kane participated in the Asia Pacific Outgames Human Rights Conference. The interview, conducted by Gareth Watkins, lasts 13 minutes and primarily covers Kane's viewpoints and experiences relating to human rights and the psychology of gay men. Kane begins by discussing their involvement in the Outgames conference, noting their silver medal achievement in a 5K run and their role as Secretary for the Gay and Lesbian Issues in Psychology Interest Group of the Australian Psychological Society. Kane submitted two research papers, "Gay Men are More than Their Bodies" and another on ethical guidelines for transgender individuals. In the first paper, Kane challenges the narrative that gay men are overwhelmingly obsessed with either being thin and youthful or muscular and trim. By examining research over the past 25 years, Kane argues that empirical evidence does not fully support these stereotypes. Instead, Kane emphasizes that gay men's identities extend beyond physical attributes, a perspective borne from their clinical practice. During the conversation about clinical practice, Kane reveals that relationship issues are the most common concern among their clients, which is similar to what heterosexual individuals face. They use the analogy that while the "icing" may differ, the underlying "cake" of issues is fundamentally the same. On the broader spectrum of human rights issues in Australia, Kane highlights marriage and parenting rights as significant concerns, but also questions whether this emphasis reflects their own middle-age and socioeconomic perspective. Kane emphasizes the importance of practicing and embodying diversity rather than simply discussing it and suggests that community members need to actively challenge biases and stereotypes. Kane then discusses the process of advocating for official ethical guidelines for psychologists working with transgender clients in Australia. They describe the challenges associated with gaining recognition and legitimacy for such guidelines due to the relatively smaller size of the transgender population within the queer community. Regarding terminology, Kane stresses the importance of respecting each client's preferred terms and acknowledges the evolution of personal identity over time, with their own self-perception shifting from identifying primarily by sexual orientation to their roles as a partner, psychologist, and pet owner. Describing their experiences at the conference, Kane emphasizes their satisfaction with the opening ceremony and their enjoyment of the diverse presentations and attendees. With a focus on learning, Kane looks forward to making connections outside of their usual professional sphere, exemplifying the value of interdisciplinary engagement. The interview concludes with a reflection on progress and the hope that, 30 years from the interview date, society will have moved beyond "lip service" to truly embrace inclusivity and diversity in daily life. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  So, Graham Kane, Um, I'm a counselling psychologist from Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Um, the out games conference. I initially enrolled as a runner, and so I ran that on Sunday and got a silver in the five K. So very happy about that in terms of the conference, Um, one of my roles, as as a counselling psychologist, is I'm the secretary for the gay and lesbian issues in Psychology interest group for, um, Australian Psychological Society over in Australia. And, [00:00:30] um, I submitted two papers. So the two papers I submitted one is gay men are more than their bodies and the other is looking at ethical guidelines for trans individuals. So should we take the first paper first? What? What's that about? The first paper is, um yes. How does statistically say it? Um, it's a It's a look at the two dominant paradigms that typically represent gay men and research gay men. And one is that gay men are obsessed with being thin and youthful, and the other is that they are obsessed [00:01:00] with being muscular and trim. And when you look at the research, certainly there are individuals that will have that obsession, but not necessarily as widely distributed as some people claim. And so what I did is look at the evidence and start to get a sense that the research and there's quite there's quite a lot over the last 25 years wasn't as robust as it should be. And so what I did [00:01:30] was interrogate the research and have written a couple of articles that have been published. And so I'm presenting on some of my research and I'm a practitioner. So I come in from an angle of someone who sees a couple of 100 people a year as a clinician and looking at the and challenging some of the paradigms. I'm challenging the thin and the muscular paradigm. Not to say that, that that men aren't interested in their bodies. It's just that we're [00:02:00] more than our bodies, which is the title of the paper. So as a clinician and seeing two or 300 people a year. What are the main issues that are coming up for those people? Um oh, it's a broad range, Uh, and like the number one is always going to be relationships. It's going to be who you are in a relationship to your family, your friends and, um, as well as work. So the the [00:02:30] number one issue is, uh, relationships that I find and you you can kind of branch out from that. Some people might have some issues with anxiety or depression. Um, certainly you've got, you know, the typical coming out issues, or, um, you know, you get the odd body image issue as well. So the, uh, the issues are diverse, but it's all about who I am. And where do I exist in this world. Is that any different from a straight mainstream group of people coming to a Councillor? Uh, what I found And [00:03:00] I'm 45 and I've been doing this, you know, coming up to the, you know, my second decade. Um, and I have a huge, uh, a significant, uh, heterosexual straight population. And the issues are very much the same. Um, well, 11 of my jokes is the icing may look different, but the cake is still the same underneath. That's kind of one of my little catch phrases that I made up for this week to annoy my partner with. So, um, you know, every time it'll we'll try to talk about some unique or distinct thing. I'll turn around and say, Well, the icing may be different, [00:03:30] but the cakes still the same. So, you know, heterosexuals have the same thing in terms of, uh, fidelity in relationships that they're no longer going to be with. Or how do you negotiate that? Um, how do you negotiate separation? Um, how do you manage your careers and juggle all those things? They're no different from same sex attracted couples or opposite sex attracted couples. So in Australia now, what do you think the biggest human rights issues are for queer communities? [00:04:00] Oh, the 10, there's a long number. Um, look, I think, certainly, um, marriage and kids. Um, but again, I look, I like always to challenge myself. Is that because I'm middle aged and so as a middle aged man, mine's always you know who's who is middle class, and he's very comfortable, you know, he's got the house, got the partner, You know, my my next issue is a marriage and kids. So, uh, do I see that through that particular lens? And I would suggest yes. And so and, um, actually, [00:04:30] I want to be very topical. here. Do you know what I think? One of the biggest issues for for all of us. How do we actually act out diversity? Because we talk about it and it's on the radio. It's in our media. But in terms of when we start to make jokes, we we go back to bias and stereotypes. And and so when you when you someone will say, Well, typical lesbians are pragmatic, All the all the gays are very, um, creative and I. I wanna kind of challenge those stereotypes because I can't shop for shit. You know, when I go [00:05:00] out and buy clothes, I have no idea. You know, I, I I'm not and I have power tools. So what am I a closet le lesbian or something? So in terms of if I was to say from our community, the issue is to embrace diversity and live it and breathe it and walk it rather than just give it lip service. So, um, that's my challenge, um, to to us in terms of actually, um, walking and breathing and living diversity. As we proclaim. We, um we are. And so then my challenge to you would be how Do you do that personally? [00:05:30] How do I do that personally? Oh, good. As in me individually. Personally, Um oh, I have a very robust relationship with a partner that keeps me honest as well as friends. I think that's how you actually do it. So that when when you, um, start to believe your own rubbish, you know, someone will come along and kind of like, you know, say, excuse me, Uh, there are some, uh, inconsistencies in your attitude and opinion on what you're actually doing, and it's always really healthy to not only be a deliverer of feedback, [00:06:00] but also to receive it. And I think in terms of one of the things I always work hard at, you know, as a psychologist, I'm giving people my professional opinion. It's always nice when someone gives you their personal opinion back, and that's the hard thing to actually integrate it to actually take on board when someone actually gives you a challenge back that you're inconsistent. Is it hard as a psychologist to actually switch off from that kind of whole observational kind of counselling role? I think [00:06:30] Look, young psychologists are psychologists. Every breathing second of their lives. I think as you get older, you get a bit fatigued and a little bit disinterested at always looking at people. So, you know, I think everyone has a capacity to make interpretations of themselves and each other. Mine's just scientifically based, and we're not always interpreting or assessing other people. Um, however, uh, how easy is it? I. I think it's pretty easy [00:07:00] unless it's pretty much in your face and pretty obvious. Or so do you find, Um, there is any difference between a straight group of people and a queer group of people in terms of accessing health services, particularly like, say, mental health services. Um, I think it's always, um, bang for Buck. Like the bigger cities, you're going to have more options. And, um, you have those that want more anonymity anonymity? You want those that want, um, gay lesbian transgender identified [00:07:30] the, um I think the smaller cities are people are gonna struggle with that. So in Melbourne, where I live, you know, people from Geelong and rural Victoria will come up, um, to the gay identified. But then the difficulty with that is that it can take, you know, 4 to 8 weeks to get an appointment. So it's all those kind of challenges and obstacles as well as opportunities. The, um, segue into my second presentation Very good. [00:08:00] The, um, the I'm. I'm looking at proposing ethical guidelines for Australian psychologists because there's one at the moment I'm working with gay, lesbian bisexual clients, which basically means that you need to do so in a respectful, competent manner if you're a psychologist and so that in a sense, sets a standard, and if you don't do so that there could be some consequences for you. I'm endeavouring to advocate for a transgender guidelines to be, uh, recognised and legitimised within Australia so that, [00:08:30] um, you know, it's gonna be a challenge and an uphill battle so that to get it endorsed at that high level, such that all 27,000 psychologists need to be attentive to those particular issues. So in terms of mental health at the in, working with an individual practitioner and looking at psychologists, it's always good to kind of set the bar and always constantly reviewing and setting that bar higher and higher. So that's it in the summary. [00:09:00] I'm interested to know why will it be a challenge. Why is it so difficult to get that passed in terms of vulnerable groups? It's just critical mass. It's like anything. The more you have, the more you're going to be heard so that in terms of gay lesbians and bisexuals in Australia, given the critical mass, they can turn around and say, Well, this is our expectations. This is what we want in terms of transgender being a vulnerable group. I think one of the speakers [00:09:30] this morning was talking about a vulnerable group within the vulnerable group, et cetera. The challenges with that is that when you're dealing with a smaller population, it's lower on the agenda. It's lower on the priorities and where things are always being prioritised. How do you actually say yes? This is only a small group of people, but it's still important. And that's the challenge. So how many psychologists in Australia are going to be providing psychological [00:10:00] services to trans clients? I don't know what that number is, so that's part of the challenge to say that to legitimise it, to say that this is important, that's the challenge. Now I've been using the word queer, um, all the way over the last couple of days. But what words would you use for myself? Well, for myself, I'd say a gay man. But when working with clients terminology is is huge. And that's one of the things that I've done in both the ethical guidelines one that's actually [00:10:30] endorsed and the other that I'm I'm putting forward and that is that you need to check, um, with the person, the terminology that they're comfortable with. You may have someone that, um, has an incredible resistance to that kind of terminology. Or, um, I would say to you, as a 45 year old man, the gay aspect probably represents 5% of who I am. Probably when I was about 18 19, it was probably between 90. So, in terms of where people are in their [00:11:00] life, where they are culturally socially, um, politically, economically they're gonna have different ways of expressing who they are. So some I. I see myself more as a partner and a psychologist than necessarily a gay man have a higher priority, as well as an owner owner of a very demanding dog. So in terms of being a pet, a very responsible pet owner. That sort of features hugely in my life. Because every afternoon I need to walk that particular creature. [00:11:30] So this conference, uh, what do you want to get out of it? Um, I suppose a couple of things. The, um I've got what I wanted. The opening was just sensational. You know, in terms of the, uh, both to be entertained to be challenged to, uh, be excited and to be, um Oh, I'm speechless. So that kind of gives you some sort of idea of just how, um, [00:12:00] it met. Met those needs to at a conference. You, you know, conferences. You don't won't necessarily like everything you hear or see. But the opening was, um it was warm. It was intelligent. It was as cheeky as all hell. Some of the presenters were hysterical. They had me in fit. But it was also, um, poignant And the and the pathos and and the diversity not only of the presenters and their issues, but also the crowd. So, you know, I'm happy I got what I wanted. So, um, [00:12:30] I know for some other people, it's about connections with a whole range of people. Um, as a psychologist, I don't necessarily go to human rights conferences. So that's this is all this is a first for me. And, um, yesterday I set in a, uh a workers' rights. Now, I'm not I'm not I'm not a unionised member of any workforce. So, um, it was it was quite a pleasure to sit in there and go Oh, OK, you know, learning. Alright, that's it. In a in a nutshell. Learning. How's that? That's great. If we were to look 30 years ahead and somebody's listening [00:13:00] back to this as an archival recording, what would you like to say to them, um, have have have we How far have we advanced? If we gotten any further, uh, how do we how do we manage our domestic petty domestic concerns? And have we, um, gotten over that And how inclusive and diverse, um, are we have we moved from lip service to actually, uh, walking the talk. And there are some of the reflections I'd ask people to consider. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Asia Pacific Outgames ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Australia ; Coming Up ; Graeme Kane ; Melbourne ; Pacific ; People ; Wellington ; advocate ; agenda ; anonymity ; anxiety ; attitude ; bisexual ; board ; body image ; class ; coming out ; community ; conference ; connections ; council ; depression ; difference ; diversity ; dog ; expectations ; face ; family ; friends ; gaming ; gay ; health ; hell ; heterosexual ; human rights ; individual ; lesbian ; listening ; mainstream ; march ; marriage ; media ; mental health ; middle class ; obsession ; other ; power ; priorities ; psychology ; queer ; radio ; relationships ; research ; resistance ; rural ; separation ; sex ; stereotypes ; straight ; struggle ; time ; trans ; transgender ; walking ; work. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/apog_graeme_kane.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089451. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.