The title of this recording is "Grace Poore and Satya Rai Nagpaul". It was recorded in Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington on the 16th March 2011. This is an interview with Grace Poore and Satya Rai Nagpaul. The interviewer is Gareth Watkins. Their names are spelt correctly, but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 17 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Grace Poore and Satya Rai Nagpaul talk about attending the human rights conference. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: In the podcast recorded in Wellington Town Hall, "Grace Poore and Satya Rai Nagpaul" discuss their participation in a human rights conference. The interviewer, Gareth Watkins, delves into their conference experiences, efforts in human rights activism, and the broader implications for the LGBTQ+ and disability movements. Poore explains the motivation behind attending the conference was an invitation from Rainbow Wellington to speak and conduct a workshop. The workshop centered on the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission's new campaign built around the film "Courage Unfolds." The campaign is dedicated to informing and engaging activists in the Asia-Pacific region about the Yogyakarta Principles - 29 human rights principles formulated in Yogyakarta, Indonesia, in 2006. These principles aim to extend standard human rights to include LGBTQ+ individuals, providing guidelines on freedom of expression, access to health care, education, privacy, and equitable treatment under the law. In another panel at the conference, Satya Rai Nagpaul discusses participating in conversations about health activism, specifically the intersection of the disability movement and the transgender movement observed through an event in India. The panel offered insights into challenges faced by both movements and opportunities for solidarity and joint activism. A key aspect highlighted by Nagpaul was the disparity between New Zealand's more advanced movement building and the nascent stages of collective activism in India. There is curiosity about the potential for such comprehensive rights discussions to occur within a South Asian context, given the current state of activism in the region. As the conversations continue, the presenters tackle the issue of movement building and how the definition and perception of a 'movement' can vary dramatically across different cultures and political landscapes in Asia. They both express a desire to examine and redefine the term "movement" concerning varying global contexts and histories. During the interview, Poore reflects on a workshop attended about interfaith and sexuality and notes discomfort with the lack of diversity among the speakers. This prompts a broader discussion on inclusivity at the conference, where Poore also observes an apparent age differential among participants. Moreover, Nagpaul reflects on feelings of invisibility within specific groups, such as the genderqueer community, even when specialized panels are held - echoing the need for greater consideration of all identities within the LGBT discourse. Looking to the future, Poore and Nagpaul both express hope that in 30 years, the battles for basic LGBTQ+ rights and recognition will no longer be at such a fundamental level. They anticipate that though challenges will persist, progress will result in a future where diversity in gender and sexual orientation is no longer contentious. However, there is caution due to unpredictable shifts in societal acceptance and the persistent influence of religious conservatism and other entrenched obstacles to equality. The content depicts not only the specific work and missions of the activists but also a broader dialogue on the global state of LGBTQ+ and disability rights. It signals an aspiration for a world where the discussions and struggles of the present appear obsolete due to the establishment of unquestioned rights and acceptance for all. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  What brought me to the conference? I was invited, uh, by, um, rainbow Wellington, uh, to come and speak here. And then I also submitted a workshop, So I'm doing a screening this evening. I did a workshop yesterday, and I'm going to be speaking at the plenary on Friday morning. What was the workshop on the workshop? Um was basically about a campaign that my organisation International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights [00:00:30] Commission is trying to get off the ground, and it's built around a video called Courage unfolds. So yesterday I showed a trailer and talked about the campaign, tried to get everybody buzzed up about it, uh, and basically talked about what the Yogyakarta principles are tried to deconstruct it from this legal document to something that is activist friendly and why it's relevant for LGBT activism in the API region. Is it possible to go very briefly through [00:01:00] the principles? Um, as you know, there are 29 principles. Uh, they were developed in 2006 by, um, experts from all over the world. 29 experts, 25 countries. Um, and they happen to be in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. Um, that's why it's called the Yogyakarta principles. Um, and basically, what they are is the 20. They they lay out the rights that all people [00:01:30] should have, including LGBT people, from the right to freedom of expression. The right to housing access to health care, right to education, Right to privacy. Uh, you know, right to protection and equal protection under the law. Um, you know, right to a fair trial, all of the things that everybody else, right. Um but the nice thing about it is that it it says these are rights that need to be accorded to LGBT [00:02:00] people and that people should not be discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation and gender identity. So along with those rights, they lay out guidelines on how people can implement those rights. So that's the good thing about it. It's a great tool. And it's not just for governments, you know, it's it's for NGOs. It's for employers. It's for, you know, educational institutions. It's [00:02:30] for the UN. It's for all of these institutions. So I think in that sense, uh, activists can say OK, we're gonna take these and turn them into a campaign, or we're gonna use these and work with our national human rights institution. Or we're gonna take this and try to get our anti discrimination bill passed. Or we're gonna make it part of a curriculum in schools where we're teaching people about human rights and we want to include this, so it really has very practical value to it. So I was trying to get people excited about the principles [00:03:00] about the campaign about the video. And then tonight I'm just gonna have a screening of the film. And then on Friday, I'll be talking about movement building. Basically, Yeah. Yeah, basically, I came here to, uh, participate in a panel on health activism. Uh, last year we had the first trans healthcare meet in India. Uh, and this was post the Barcelona conference last year, which was, uh, which is where I met all [00:03:30] the trans guys here from New Zealand, who then invited me over. So my reason to come here essentially was one to be able to be on that panel for health activism and, of course, to meet all the Trans guys here and what was discussed on that panel. Basically, you know, the idea was to be able to see where the disability movement and the trans movement could find interlinks and work with each other to be able to talk about it, to be able to see where they are, what are the conflicts they are facing with the trans movement and vice versa [00:04:00] and where we can build bridges? What were some of the issues that were raised? Most of the panellists were actually I was the only non New Zealand Australian on the panel. So, uh, some of the issues which they were talking about and where they were in their movement building is very different from where what I was coming with. So one, for me, it was, of course, to sort of witness what were the issues internally within New Zealand and Australia on their movement building and to be able to see [00:04:30] what we're doing back home. Uh, essentially as far as the picture back home is that though we have disability activists back home and we have some people in the trance, we really can't call it a movement movement yet. But there are pockets of activism in the country when you say back home, which country in India. So there are pockets of activism, but we still have not been able to tie up even with each other. And being able to tie up with the disability sector is still, I think, some way away. [00:05:00] But it was very interesting to see the kind of stuff they're already dealing with because they're way up ahead, I think, in in their movement building. Uh, and it was Yeah. What were some of the things that really stuck out to you? Uh, I think, uh, for example, when I was listening to Hanna, who is a lesbian? Uh uh, person and an activist on on the disability movement. Uh, she was fantastic. Philip was fantastic. And the stuff that they were talking of essentially, uh, [00:05:30] were things. For example, she said that she didn't have access to this venue as she should have had as a disability person and which is something which is so age old, uh, in the in the disability movement, the one thing that they are always talking about is access to spaces. Philip said I could be disabled or absolutely able in a matter of five minutes, depending on what the society provides me in my environment. You know so stuff like that. I mean, I'm not talking of the larger [00:06:00] radical stuff that came up and the actual movement building conflicts between movements and stuff like that, but very basic stuff in terms of access, in terms of responsibilities, of others and how disability Just the concept of disability. How? He said, I have stopped using the word disability. Now, I use the word uniquely diverse and also to be able to, you know, to be also be able to say that, uh, I may be looking in a certain way A but it doesn't mean [00:06:30] that I don't get up in the morning thinking, Oh, I'm so disabled today. I get off my bed and I get on with my day as you get on with your day, you know? So that special status that we accord in itself is also problematic. But yet at the same time to say that the rights to be able to have access and the right to be able to have the rights is equally theirs. Uh, yeah. [00:07:00] And how does that tie in with the transgender issues? See? Basically a lot of things, um speci specifically from the health point of view. I think there are a lot of common grounds as far as health is concerned. For example, the idea of at a very at a very generic conceptual level the idea of the normal body, Yeah, as medicine or as health imagines normal body. And then from that idea of not [00:07:30] being normal comes idea of correction, you know, And, uh, that those that was one conceptual common link at a very pragmatic level. For example, the reproductive rights which neither the trans people have nor the people from the disability movement have so reproductive the right to have your reproductive rights is another common platform that we share with them. Now. You've both touched briefly on movement building, and that's something [00:08:00] to be discussed tomorrow. What? What will that session be about? Um, I know Sunil Pan is going to be speaking, and he's probably talking about, um, the movement in Nepal. Um, I'm actually going to to to sort of question or or examine the term movement. Um, because I think that there is a certain, um um expectation that we all operate from the same definition, but that's not true. Asia [00:08:30] is very, very vast. Um, a lot of history, a lot of political kind of landscapes are extremely different. And so, uh, people define movement differently. Sometimes people don't want to use the word movement because of what it conveys. Um, and even activism, I think, you know, has different meanings. So maybe looking at that and then, um uh, talking about, uh, the different models that people have [00:09:00] used in and highlight some of the countries in Asia, Uh, and then make some recommendations. I think that's what I would be doing. So has there been anything in the conference thus far that has challenged you in terms of either viewpoints or ideas? I was in a workshop this afternoon on, uh, interfaith and sexuality, and I don't know if, um, [00:09:30] some of the presenters just couldn't make it or what happened, but it turned out to be all white people and, uh, even even the person who was talking about, you know, um, Buddhism and, uh was someone who was talking at it from the perspective of a white gay man who had, you know, uh, decided to do the persona. Um, So [00:10:00] I found that to be rather disconcerting because I looked around the room and, um, I saw several people who are from other countries and cultures who probably came, uh, to hear different perspectives. Um, so that was a bit troubling. Um, I also noticed that, um, there appears to be an age differential. Uh, at the conference, Um, [00:10:30] and I'm not sure if you are feeling invisible here. I know there was a caucus. I know there's a workshop, but I don't know how people are feeling about that. Um, I noticed that on the in the plenary sessions. Um, yesterday's plenary, today's plenary didn't have youth. Although some of the people on the panel might argue that with me because they say, Who are you not calling youth? So I don't [00:11:00] know, but just looking they, you know, they didn't seem like you. And so maybe there might be some young people tomorrow, Uh, so I find that to be, you know, given that, uh, so much of the work that we do is is is is integrity linked with young how young people are organising, uh, and changing, you know, definition of movement, building also so that those are the two things I've noticed. Just to take the point further. Actually, from what Grace has already said, [00:11:30] I think a lot of other groups, like the Gender Queer people, are feeling a little in invisible and not being able to be comfortable. Even I think on the on the first day, which where we had a very specific, which was the Trans and Intersex Hui, even within that space, I think they felt a little marginalised. The gender queer people. Uh, but for me, the biggest challenge actually has been. Basically, I've been completely I The one thing that I keep that keeps coming to me every day is whether there's ever going to be a moment where we're going to have something like [00:12:00] this in a more reasonable context. Uh, because I feel that back, you know, though, we have a lot of work happening back in India and in Asia and South Asia. But to be able to I I was a complete I was almost driven to the point of tears, actually, on the 1st 1st day morning presentations because, I don't know, I kind of sensed a certain kind of history, a certain kind of intergenerational linkage, a certain kind of solidarity amongst various spaces here, [00:12:30] which I still haven't witnessed, uh, in any platform, uh, in a South Asian context. So I've been wondering whether we whether we will be though there have been surprises. We've had the reading down of section 377 in India, Uh, some time back, and it's come. It came as a surprise. But to be able to imagine that we we could have something like this in a more reasonable context and and when that would be possible. Uh, I can't still imagine it. [00:13:00] Yeah, looking ahead, if somebody is listening to this tape in 30 years time, what would you like to say to them? I'm hoping that we are not going to be having the same discussion 30 years from now. I'm hoping that we're not going to be fighting for the same things. Um, but I'd like to be optimistic. And I am, um but given how certain trends are [00:13:30] sweeping through different parts of the world, from religious fundamentalism to certain kinds of government backlash, um, you know, to a certain kind of complacency, I think people may feel that Oh, well, you know, LGBT people already have rights. We see them on TV now, and you know, they talk about things openly now. So, um, it must be OK for them. Um, and [00:14:00] that 30 years from now we might be We may not be back to square one, but that people would be still fighting for for some of the same things. Um, and that the forces that we are fighting against were so well resourced, uh, so well placed, um, that, you know, they would still be sort of putting barriers in our way. Um, which is one of the reasons I went to the religion [00:14:30] workshop. Um, I don't think they call it Religion Workshop. They might have called it Spirit Workshop or something like that, but, uh, the reason I went there is because I think religion is one of the major forces that can either help or hinder, And right now it's hindering. And I think that all those progressive voices and religion we are sitting back and silent either because they're afraid or because, you know, they're privately supportive. They should be playing the role a bigger role, you know, with us. Um, [00:15:00] And until that happens, I think that you know, the fringe? Uh, very well resourced fringe extremists in all of the religions are probably going to sort of make sure that not just LGBT people, but people who they consider to be unacceptable are not going to be given equality. So 30 years from now, I'm hoping [00:15:30] I'm trying to imagine it 30 years from now. You know that it would be like a non issue, you know, and I don't even know what that means. There will always be issues, but I wouldn't want it to be at the level of so basic level of do you or do you not accept, you know, homosexuality, Do you or don't you accept, You know, trans identities and, you know, queer expressions and, you know, all diverse expressions of gender. You know, I, I hope we're not at that basic level. Um, there will always [00:16:00] be divisions. There will always be 10 tensions. I think issues become more and more complex. Um, I hope we are not at the level of identity politics, which I think we still are, you know, to some level. So actually, I feel, uh it's a very risky question to answer because you know, even five years back, it wasn't possible to predict that we will be where we are today and to imagine what's going to happen 30 years from now. It's like [00:16:30] III. I wouldn't even want to go there. But I'm just hoping you know that it will surprise us like the last five years has surprised us. And, you know, it's like a time bomb which is just sticking under you, and you don't know it's going to go off and it will go off. But I would like to imagine that the world will be a completely different place from what it is right now. And, uh, I don't want to already start imagining what it is going to be like, but I'd like to be surprised. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Asia Pacific Outgames ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Asian ; Australia ; Barcelona ; Buddhism ; Grace Poore ; Human Rights Commission ; India ; Indonesia ; LGBT ; Nepal ; Pacific ; People ; Rainbow Wellington ; Satya Rai Nagpaul ; Space ; Stuff ; Wellington ; Youth ; access ; access to health care ; activism ; anti discrimination ; barriers ; bridges ; building ; complacency ; conference ; courage ; disability ; discrimination ; division ; education ; environment ; equality ; expression ; film ; freedom ; freedom of expression ; gay ; gender ; gender identity ; government ; health ; health care ; history ; hope ; housing ; human rights ; identity ; identity politics ; integrity ; interfaith ; intergenerational ; intersex ; law ; lesbian ; listening ; march ; medicine ; mourning ; normal ; other ; pants ; politics ; privacy ; queer ; rainbow ; reading ; religion ; reproductive rights ; sexual orientation ; sexuality ; solidarity ; spaces ; teaching ; time ; trans ; transgender ; vice ; video ; witness ; work ; workshop. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/apog_grace_poore_and_satya_rai_nagpaul.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089485. Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.