The title of this recording is "Boris Dittrich". It was recorded in Wellington Town Hall, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington on the 16th March 2011. Boris Dittrich is being interviewed by Jim Whitman.  Their names are spelt correctly but may appear incorrectly spelt later in the document. The duration of the recording is 17 minutes. A list of correctly spelt content keywords and tags can be found at the end of this document. A brief description of the recording is: In this podcast Boris Dittrich from Netherlands talks about attending the human rights conference. The content in the recording covers the 2010s decade. A brief summary of the recording is: In this podcast recorded at Wellington Town Hall, Boris Dittrich, from the Netherlands and serving as the advocacy director for the LGBT Rights Programme at Human Rights Watch, discusses the importance of advocating for LGBT rights at a human rights conference in the 2010s. Interviewed by Jim Whitman, Dittrich illuminates the challenges and progress in securing rights for the LGBT community around the globe. Dittrich highlights the significance of the Yogyakarta Principles, a set of international standards developed in 2006 that translate existing human rights to specifically address sexual orientation and gender identity. These principles serve as a tool for engaging with government officials, urging them to improve laws and policies in line with the rights outlined in international treaties such as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Emphasizing practical applications, Dittrich recounts experiences from meeting LGBT organisations in Cameroon, where the full implementation of the principles is necessary, to illustrating the specific amendments required in Dutch law concerning transgender rights. The focus then shifts to the landmark case of same-sex adoption by a couple, where Dittrich recounts personal legislative initiatives that led to broadening adoption rights in the Netherlands while acknowledging the persistent discriminatory practices abroad. The conversation shifts to India's legal landscape, where Dittrich details the ongoing battle to decriminalize homosexual conduct, foregrounding the potential wider legal reverberations of a positive ruling from the Supreme Court. This legal struggle is placed within a global context, highlighting similar initiatives in places like Nepal, where progress towards legalizing same-sex marriages is ongoing thanks to the advocacy work of individuals like openly gay member of parliament Sunil Pant. Dittrich further underscores the complexities faced by transgender individuals, emphasizing that broader societal understanding and legal adjustments are needed to respect and protect their rights. The dialogue also touches on the fluctuating political will around sex work, with Dittrich advocating for protective policies that serve the workers' best interests. In summary, Dittrich reflects on the multiplicity within the LGBT community and the importance of respecting cultural sensitivities while maintaining a human rights focus. The podcast culminates with the presentation of a joint statement at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, a significant step towards a UN resolution on sexual orientation and gender identity, bolstered by the support of 78 governments. The full transcription of the recording follows.  It includes timestamps every thirty seconds in the format [HH:MM:SS].  The transcription begins:  My name is Boris Dietrich, and I'm the advocacy director of the LGBT Rights Programme at Human Rights Watch. Human Rights Watch. Where is it based? Uh, our headquarters is based in New York because as an independent international organisation, we work with the United Nations, where the headquarters is in New York, Obviously, but we do have offices all around the world. I have heard you speak before. [00:00:30] Um, you mentioned oppression in Africa, for instance, which may well be on the rise. It certainly seems to be so, Um and you mentioned the Yogyakarta principles as well as a almost a new international standard. Could you could you say a little bit more about that? Yes. The Yogyakarta principles have been developed by a group of legal experts [00:01:00] in the Indonesian city of Yogyakarta in the end of 2006. And actually they codified all exist human rights. But they translated it to sexual orientation or gender identity so that it becomes very obvious what the gap is of the LGBT community, their rights in relation to what they actually should have as rights. And so it's a very important instrument. The Yogyakarta principles [00:01:30] to meet with government officials with ministers with members of Parliament. That's my job and to say to them, Listen, there is this community in your country and you have signed up to the international treaty or to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and it says, freedom of association, freedom of expression, the right to privacy, all those kind of rights. And look how the LGBTI community [00:02:00] in your country is being treated. You need to step up. You need to change your laws and policies, and I use the Yogyakarta principles for that I. I went to a workshop with lesbian elders. Um, they took out a list of key Joy Carter principles as 29 in all isn't there. And they were about half a dozen that they felt were particularly important for them. Their plan was to [00:02:30] to use them, um, to reflect back, really to service providers and say, Well, look, you're not providing a service that stands up to these principles. That sounds like a pretty good way to use them on a practical Oh, yes, it depends completely on the context of the country where you work in and where you live in in a country like the Netherlands where I'm from. Most of the Yogyakarta principles are reflected in the national laws and [00:03:00] the Constitution, but there are still some things that need to be amended. For instance, in terms of transgender rights in the Dutch law, it still says that a transgender person wants to have a new identity of the new gender needs to undergo an irreversible operation surgery and that's against the Georgy JAA principles, so even a country like the Netherlands will [00:03:30] need to step up. So in the Netherlands, the LGBTI community focuses only on one or two principles of the Georg Jaar principles. But to give you another example recently was in Cameroon, Africa working there with two LGBT organisations and we used the Yogyakarta principles and our Human Rights Watch report about discrimination in Cameroon. So when we had a meeting with the [00:04:00] prime minister and with the minister of Justice, I showed them the Yogyakarta principles and in that context, uh, the two Cameroonian groups said, actually, all principles from the Yogyakarta principles need to be reflected in laws and policies in Cameroon. I mentioned adoption here in New Zealand. Um I. I spoke to a labour MP they [00:04:30] I mean, I think probably rightly so. I felt that the rights of the child are paramount as they're represented in the law. But certainly adoption by a couple, um, should not be discriminated against on the basis of sexuality or or gender. I know. Exactly. Um, I was a member of Parliament in the Netherlands, and in 1994 I proposed the same sex marriage bill, but also the adoption bill. And of course, you need to think [00:05:00] out of the, um, uh, perspective of the best interest of the child. Of course. Um, I always use the example of a Dutch woman. She was a sex worker. She got pregnant, got a child. She was addicted, and she couldn't take care of the child. So she asked her brother who lived with a man. Uh, please take care of my child. And then, unfortunately, she died. Uh, and the brother and his partner wanted to adopt the child because [00:05:30] they were raising the child already for a few years, and everything was ok in that family. But the Dutch law said no. This is impossible because you are two men. So that case for me was very decisive. And, uh, whenever I told it to my colleagues and to the government and used it in debates, people said, OK, yeah, actually, yeah, why not? So finally, we were able to change the law and same sex couples can [00:06:00] adopt in the Netherlands. And usually that applies only to domestic adoption. Because, um, when you want to adopt a child from India or Colombia or Syriana or other adoptive countries, usually it's the adoption authority in that country who decides who is eligible for adoption? And unfortunately, most of those adoption, uh, national authorities are still discriminating. [00:06:30] And they think two men or two women, um, are not fit enough to be parents of a child of their country. India has a very interesting legal situation at the moment with, I think it's 377. That's a universal statement about rights. It's a wonderful case because in India, homosexual conduct was not criminalised, but then [00:07:00] the Victorian law from the United Kingdom was imposed upon them a few centuries ago, and now, uh, Indian groups LGBT groups, but also other human rights groups, women's rights groups, health care groups. They took the case to court and they said, We want Article 3 70 70 to be read down because it's hurting us and it's counterproductive and it's against our Constitution of inclusion. [00:07:30] And so the Delhi High Court in 2009 ruled that indeed, Article 3 77 needs to be read down and should not be used anymore. There is an appeal launched, and the final decision is expected to come on April 18th of this year 2011 and hopefully also, the Supreme Court will acknowledge the fact that Article 3 77 [00:08:00] is against the Indian Constitution. That would be a wonderful, tremendous breakthrough. Also for other Asian countries, the sense I get is that sensuality, if you like, is the is the dominant theme in the judgement so far. That's correct because the group said, Listen, if two adults love each other and live together and, uh, want to be together, why would that be a crime? What's [00:08:30] what's the reason behind that? And most people do understand that it seems to it'll be interesting to see how it gets translated into other if it's upheld how it gets translated into the area. Other areas of law. Yes. And, uh, today I, uh, um uh attended a presentation by an Indian lawyer. And she said that she hopes that it will be upheld, of course, and that it will be translated [00:09:00] in all kind of areas of civil life. But, uh, that needs to be seen, of course. And a lot of work needs to be done because there is a lot of homophobia in society. Also amongst government officials. We we heard a man from Nepal, um, who lost his job in the armed forces. It's a country that's slowly liberalising. Perhaps, um, a recent transsexual [00:09:30] MP. I think it is, or is Human rights watch watch involved in Nepal? Yes. Sunil Pant, who is the first openly gay member of parliament in Nepal, invited me in 2007 to come to Nepal and talk to politicians, members of Parliament, members of the government, uh, about LGBT rights and specifically about same sex marriage because Sunil knew had read books about me about, [00:10:00] uh the way I, uh, proposed the same sex marriage bill in the Netherlands. And so when I was there, uh, Sunil and I had meetings with all the party leaders and we talked about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. And we received, um, quite a warm welcome with several political party leaders, uh, after the visit, and especially after Sun Neil, who was also who was at the time uh, the director [00:10:30] of the Blue Diamond Society. He was not elected as member of Parliament, yet he did a lot of work in order to persuade political parties in their political programme to include um, sexual orientation and non discrimination. And what we see now is that the court in Nepal has decided that marriage, which is not at the moment in Nepal possible for two men or two women, is actually [00:11:00] against the Constitution. And they installed a commission commission that needs to investigate same sex marriage bills from other countries in the world like the Netherlands and the outcome of that commission. And they are advised to Parliament whether to open their civil marriage to same sex couples is also expected, uh, this year. So it might be depending, of course, on the conclusions of the [00:11:30] uh commission that either civil unions, uh, some kind of minimum standard will be installed or it might be that they say no, we should open up our marriage and same sex marriage should be taking place. Transsexual people. Um that tends to cut across the grain of both gender and sexuality, doesn't it? Yes, exactly. It it it. It's extremely difficult for [00:12:00] legal systems to adapt to that with the principles that that your gender is assigned at birth and it's read off your body, so to speak. Um, how how How's that struggle going? Of course, yes. Well, that's really a struggle. I noticed that in the 10 countries, for instance, where same sex marriages take place. Um, there are still a lot of things to, uh, achieve for transgender people [00:12:30] and let alone in those countries And, of course, in other countries as well. So the common denominator, actually, is that, um, in many countries, people do not really understand the concept of transgenderism. Uh, because the first question when a child is born is is it a boy or a girl? And so people have this framework in their head that you are either a boy or a girl, and they don't understand that there are all kinds of other possibilities So [00:13:00] yes, transgender rights is actually something that really needs to be focused upon by, of course, transgender groups, but also by other groups. And in this respect, I would really like to say that the LGBT community should not forget the tea and should also focus on the tea rights. I had that sense around prostitution, um, sex workers, that [00:13:30] the resolve of governments to stick with the liberal regime can falter quite easily. Um, well, what we see is, of course, we are now talking about democracies, and sometimes political parties win the elections, and sometimes they lose. And it is, really it really matters who is governing your country. So when a conservative party or coalition of parties will govern a country, they might repeal [00:14:00] certain laws and certain policies, uh, that others might think are very important. So especially with sex work, that's a very delicate subject. Um, but, um, in the Netherlands, that's where I'm comparing it with we decriminalised sex work. We legalised it because we thought it would be important, first of all to protect the people who do the work, but also in order to make health [00:14:30] care more accessible to them it would be important that it would be taken out of this fear of crime. But of course, we should be very, very focused on criminal elements like forced sex or trafficking or sex with minor things like that. Um, but sometimes, you know, you see that when a new government takes office, then and especially when people who are not really into this subject they might regard [00:15:00] it very primarily, as you know, sex workers immoral. And then it might be that things are being changed again, which might affect the community. So I would hope that a lot of politicians would really look beyond the easy arguments like morals. But look at how is it affecting the people and then stand by the people? [00:15:30] We've got a lot of ground there. That's it's all the public side of sexuality. Um, how do you What would you take away yourself from this conference? Well, for me, it was really a groundbreaking to, um, listen to all these, uh, examples, especially from the Pacific. But also this morning from a black lesbian woman, uh, Aboriginal from Australia. How diverse we are also [00:16:00] as an LGBTI community and how respectful for we should be for cultural sensitivities without, of course, losing track of the human rights aspect. But it's so what I take back from this conference is that we should be proud to belong to this community. We should stick together and help each other and feel solidarity. But we also should leave each other enough space to [00:16:30] develop our own identities and our own emotions around those identities. So that's quite a challenge. But I feel that we are making progress. The wonderful thing is that the conference endorsed a joint statement which will be presented on March 22nd in Geneva at the Human Rights Council. I have been working with the coordination group led by John Fisher to support and to [00:17:00] try to engage a lot of governments to sign on to that statement and it was moving to see that the 300 plus people in the audience applauded this joint statement and said, Yes, we support it and we endorse it and we are calling our governments to do the same. At this point in time, 78 governments signed on the joint statement and it's really groundbreaking and I can use that joint statement in my work at the United Nations in New York for a Human Rights Watch because we hope finally, [00:17:30] to introduce a resolution on sexual orientation and gender identity. And of course, we need a majority of the countries in the world to support that. The full transcription of the recording ends. A list of keywords/tags describing the recording follow. These tags contain the correct spellings of names and places which may have been incorrectly spelt earlier in the document. The tags are seperated by a semi-colon: 2010s ; Africa ; Asia Pacific Outgames ; Asia Pacific Outgames (2011) ; Asian ; Australia ; Blue Diamond Society ; Boris Dittrich ; Colombia ; Geneva ; High Court ; India ; Job ; John Fisher ; LGBT ; Member of Parliament ; Nepal ; Netherlands ; Pacific ; People ; Space ; United Kingdom ; United Nations ; Wellington ; Wellington Town Hall ; Yogyakarta Principles (2006) ; adoption ; advice ; audience ; books ; change ; civil unions ; community ; conference ; consent ; conservative ; council ; covenant ; crime ; discrimination ; dominant ; elders ; expression ; family ; freedom ; freedom of expression ; gay ; gender ; gender identity ; government ; homophobia ; homosexual ; hope ; human rights ; identity ; inclusion ; justice ; law ; lawyer ; lesbian ; love ; march ; marriage ; meetings ; oppression ; other ; parents ; parties ; plan ; privacy ; respect ; sex ; sex work ; sexual orientation ; sexuality ; solidarity ; struggle ; support ; surgery ; time ; transgender ; treaty ; unions ; women ; women's rights ; work ; workshop. The original recording can be heard at this website https://www.pridenz.com/apog_boris_dittrich.html. The master recording is also archived at the Alexander Turnbull Library in Wellington, New Zealand.  For more details visit their website https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1089439. Boris Dittrich also features audibly in the following recordings: "Closing comments - AsiaPacific Outgames", "Session 7, Gender, Sexuality and Rights" and "Reflections on Church and State (Auckland) - Marriage Equality". Please note that this document may contain errors or omissions - you should always refer back to the original recording to confirm content.