CREATION DATE: 2023-12-05T21:19:22+13:00 SOURCE URL: https://www.pridenz.com/data/text/plaintext/ IRN: 3667 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/transgender_day_of_remembrance_2023.html ATL REF: ATL URL: TITLE: Transgender Day of Remembrance 2023 USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Fionn McKenzie; Paul Barber; Rosemary Lawrence; Sonia Groes-Petrie; The Glamaphones (Wellington) INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 2020s; Alok Vaid-Mano; Fionn McKenzie; J. Jennifer Espinoza; Paul Barber; Posie Parker; Ricardo Menendez March; Rosemary Lawrence; Sonia Groes-Petrie; St Andrew's on the Terrace; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; The Disinformation Project; The Glamaphones (Wellington); Transgender Day of Remembrance; Transgressive transitions (research, 2023); disinformation; eugenics; gender binary; gender diversity; gender expression; gender identity; gender wars; patriarchal system; pride; trans; transgender DATE: 19 November 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: St Andrew's on the Terrace, 30 The Terrace, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the service at St Andrews on the Terrace, Wellington to commemorate Transgender Day of Remembrance. The service occurred on Sunday 19 November, with the Day of Remembrance on the 20th November. A stereo recording of The Glamaphones can be heard here. A special thank you to St Andrew's for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. This recording has been edited, with some parts of the service not included. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023 TEXT: [00:00:00] We come together from many places, pasts and communities, carrying all the stories of where we've been, the messiness of our current struggles, our hopes and dreams for the future, whether they seem tenuous or tenacious, come into this time of connection, bringing who you truly are. Our presence together makes this space sacred.[00:00:30] We gather in this place to remember and grieve. May we find moments of stillness and peace. We gather to be challenged to change and grow. May our hearts and minds be open to what we hear and feel. We come together to renew our commitment to justice. May we find new energy and inspiration for the work ahead. [00:01:00] Be seated. A warm welcome to everyone, and a special welcome to those who are visiting us today. Um, [00:01:30] and especially my Glamourphones Choir whānau, thank you so much for joining us again. Um, we've got a few visitors from other communities as well, some people who usually go to St Peter's. So, really lovely to have you with us, and um, thank you for joining us today. Uh, We usually have one of the children come up and light the rainbow candle at this point. I see there's a little person there. Um, would they like to come and light a candle for us? Yeah? [00:02:00] Jakob. Welcome Jakob. So we have a little candle here and this is our candle that symbolises our inclusive community and the special place of children in our community. And maybe you two can, do you want to hold it together? Take this one over to that one, yeah. Eternal Spirit, life giver, pain bearer, love maker, source of all that [00:02:30] is and that shall be, Father and Mother of us all, loving God in whom is heaven, the hallowing of your name echo through the universe. The way of your justice be followed by the peoples of the world. Your heavenly will be done by all created beings. Your commonwealth of peace and freedom, sustain our hope and come on earth. With the [00:03:00] bread we need for today, feed us. In the hurts we absorb from one another, forgive us. In times of temptation and test, strengthen us. From trials too great to endure, spare us. From the grip of all that is evil, free us. For you reign in the glory of the power that is love now and forever. Amen.[00:03:30] The reading from the Hebrew Bible is a retelling of Psalm 31. In you, O God, I seek refuge. Do not let me be worn down by the shame put upon me. Listen to the whispers of my heart. I trust in [00:04:00] you, the solid ground I can return to. A safe place where I can regather my strength. Divine wisdom, guide me through the obstacles all around. When people try to entrap me in rigid ways of being, I will let my spirit expand into the space you hold for me. [00:04:30] On this journey, I have been hurt again and again. There are groups who seek to erase me and those I love. We are taunted by strangers. And even people we once called friends now see us as broken. There are times when distress overwhelms me. I have [00:05:00] wept until I'm exhausted. My body and soul ache with grief. You have heard me crying out to you. Let your shine, let your light shine upon me. Be near me when the world feels unsafe. Friends, don't wait idly. [00:05:30] Let your hearts take courage in the knowledge God's love is boundless. God's path leads us toward justice. And we look towards the day. When the divine vision of radical inclusion comes into fullness. And the New Testament reading is from Luke, [00:06:00] chapter 10, verses 25 to 37. The parable of the Good Samaritan. An expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. As teacher, he said, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus replied, What is written in the law? What do you read there? And he answered, You shall love the Lord your God with all your [00:06:30] heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself. And Jesus said, You have given the right answer. Do this to And you will live. But wanting to vindicate himself, he asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? Jesus replied, A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho [00:07:00] and fell into the hands of robbers who stripped him, beat him, and took off, leaving him half dead. Now by chance, a priest was going down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, he passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, while traveling, came upon him, and when he saw him, [00:07:30] he was moved with compassion. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, treating them with oil and wine. Then he put him on his own animal, Took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said, Take care of him, and when I come back, I will repay you whatever more you spend. Which [00:08:00] of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers, Jesus asked. And the expert in law said, The one who showed mercy, and Jesus said, Go and do likewise. And the contemporary reading is a quote from an interview with Alok Vaid-Mano, a trans South Asian writer, [00:08:30] performance artist, and activist. This is Alec's response to a question about how they practice joy during a time when there's a lot of fear and grief. The first is learning history, because we have this deep need to pretend as if everything is unprecedented, and it's just not true. There have been so many people before us who have felt the same sense of despair, and [00:09:00] I'm deeply curious about what they did with their despair, and how they navigated lives and societies that told them that they shouldn't exist. I take so much hope, especially during Pride. From the legacy of my trans ancestors. Imagine knowing that you'd be arrested for going outside, and going outsides anyways. Imagine being [00:09:30] arrested 20 to 40 times, and still going outside. Imagine the kinds of everyday brutality, and yet, the self knowledge it took. to continue to go outside as my transistors did. And so I tell myself, okay, why did they do it? The only probable reason that they could do it [00:10:00] is because they loved me, because they wanted to create a world where no one had to suffer like they did, and they birthed that possibility for me. So I have to do it for the next gen. I have to really fight to make sure that no one else has to experience this pain. That's what gives me hope. History [00:10:30] informs my future. For the word in scripture, for the word among us, for the word within us. We give thanks.[00:14:00] The transgender day of remembrance was started by transgender advocate Gwendolyn Ann Smith, who said, The Transgender Day of Remembrance seeks to highlight the losses we face due to anti transgender bigotry and violence. I am no stranger to the need for our rights [00:14:30] and the right to simply exist as first and foremost, with so many seeking to erase transgender people, sometimes in the most brutal ways possible. It is vitally important that we are remembered, and we, those we lose are remembered, and we continue to fight for justice. So today we light a candle in the memory of the 320 trans and gender diverse people who have been reported as [00:15:00] murdered in the year just passed. God of peace, we give thanks for each precious life. For the divine light they shone upon in the world, and we mourn their senseless deaths. May all those who grieve find comfort and support. We acknowledge that these reported deaths only represent a fraction of the loss of life. [00:15:30] We light a candle for those whose deaths were not reported, and whose identities are erased as a last act of violence. God of justice, you know their names. Enfold them in your love. We pray for resolve to root out the injustice, ignorance and cruelty. And we pray that all those who perpetuate hate and violence will be led to [00:16:00] restorative justice. We light a candle for all the trans and gender diverse people. We light a candle for all those who have died because society did not ensure they had shelter, safe and accessible health care, and adequate income to survive. God of liberation, strengthen and guide us in the work that is needed to bring about a world where all can live with dignity and thrive.[00:16:30] We light a candle for all those who did not receive the love, support and acceptance they needed. Who internalized the violence of the world and took their own lives. Our hearts break for those who were only children and could no longer continue in the struggle just to exist. God of love, help us to embody your radical inclusion and to propagate [00:17:00] the seeds of acceptance throughout our families, churches and societies. On this day, we stand together against hate, and we renew our commitment to work for justice. In this way, we not only honor those we lost, we affirm the lives of the living, being allies, activists, and advocates as we affirm the truth that all life is precious. We light a [00:17:30] candle for the future we yearn for. God of all time. You kindle the flames of hope. We will never let them die away. Amen.[00:19:30] In our contemporary reading today, we had words from Alok Vaid-Mano, elsewhere in the same podcast. They speak about the weaponization of biology, and how the arguments about biology determining the possibilities of who we can be, and what we can do with our lives, have been used in the past to ban women from [00:20:00] education and voting, and to vilify people with diverse sexualities. They explain how these arguments, now being turned on trans people, are deeply entangled with the history of eugenics. White Protestants in Europe developed a theory of race suicide, which was based on their fear of non white, non Christian immigrants outnumbering them, and gaining power and rights. In this context, queer people [00:20:30] experienced torturous medical and psychological interventions to fix them, so that they could continue reproducing the white race. Fast forward to today in the USA where hundreds of pieces of anti trans and anti abortion legislation have been introduced or are being drafted. These issues are coinciding because they both undermine the idea that women equals mother equals vessel for reproduction. [00:21:00] When trans people expand the possibilities of gender and what we imagine femininity and masculinity to be, This threatens the system in the same way that women taking on leadership roles or work outside the home, or having autonomy over their reproductive organs, threaten the system. The threat is both to physical reproduction, but also to the ongoing production of the social and political structures that keep men, specifically white, cis, heterosexual men, holding [00:21:30] power. The response to this threat is violence. But our response must be healing, compassion, and love. Alok articulates it a lot better than I'll be able to, so you should go away and listen to some of their work or read it. But for now I want to give you one more quote from them. Stop framing this as a minority issue, and reframe this as a universal attack on self determination. Every [00:22:00] one of us should be able to determine our own gender. No one else should be able to tell us what we look like, how we should act, and what we should do with our bodies. So we need you to show up in this moment, not just as acts of allyship, but out of an insistence in your own dignity, your own capacity to transform, your own love of self. And trans people are blowing the whistle and we're trying to let you know, if they're targeting [00:22:30] us, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when. This is endangering the fabric of our democracy. End quote. Here in Aotearoa, the Disinformation Project published a research report on the concerning ways that far right ideologies are being normalised and spread here, and threatening our democracy. Professor Mark Wilson from the School of Psychology at Te Hiringa Waka University, responding to the report, [00:23:00] asks, How do we get from individuals making decisions about their gender, or what even gender means, to battles for the soul and the future of humanity? The report suggests that events such as those surrounding the recent Posey Parker controversy are framed in terms of issues around gender, but also serve as an entry point into an otherwise hidden world dominated by neo Nazi ideology. And that doesn't stop at demonising people on the basis of gender. Come for the gender [00:23:30] wars, in the hope you'll stick around for the racism and misogyny. Professor Joanna Kidman, sociologist also at Te Herenga Waka. Describes this as a swarm of hate that gathers and spreads across diverse groups of followers. Eventually, the swarm moves on, but it leaves a lasting imprint, and that's risky for targeted groups. I'm sharing these ideas not because I feel like, not because I think that you need to feel personally [00:24:00] threatened to be motivated to take action. I think we're gathered in this community because we know how important it is to stand with those who are marginalized. But I also think it's important to see the whole swarm. To notice how it's gathering and growing because we need to find ways to disrupt it. I also believe as a congregation established by white colonial settlers, however ethical we may believe those particular settlers to have been, it's important for [00:24:30] us to reflect on how we may be part of maintaining structures of power and privilege. We also need to be aware of how white supremacy, patriarchy, and the gender binary harm us all so that we can take responsibility for our own healing. Which brings me to what I hope you will take away as an overall theme from this service. The healing and transformative power of radical love. [00:25:00] Earlier in the readings we heard from a look about how they experience the bravery of their ancestors as an act of love. They have also spoken of how the love they experienced within their family, and from their aunt in particular, felt so real and true to them that they knew that the hatred expressed to them online and on the streets couldn't be the truth. There is plenty of research that shows that the mental health and suicide disparities for queer people evaporate when we [00:25:30] exist in spaces that accept us. When we have people in our schools, churches and families who make us feel their unconditional love, who make love real in their words and actions, it's less of a struggle for us to survive. Having somewhere or someone who makes us feel we belong makes such a difference. We're going to have a poem in a few minutes by Jennifer Espinoza. And I was tossing up two different [00:26:00] possibilities from her poems. The one that we're not going to have the whole poem has these lines. One day I will finally be alive. I can feel it. I know I will be alive. Because life is beautiful, and I am beautiful, and I belong in it. I belong in life. I may not belong in this life, but I belong in life. That [00:26:30] line's just been breaking my heart as I've been thinking about this. Preparing for this service. Earlier the glamophones sang, There's nothing I wouldn't do to make you feel my love. And I was thinking about the young people in my family, and all my hopes for them. I want them to always know they're cherished, and never to question whether they belong in this life. My love for them, and my dreams for their future, [00:27:00] motivate me to be open and take action on my own gender transition. Even though that's painful and feels risky in our current context. I already know from being a queer person in the church that it's harder to hate us when we're no longer abstract. When we turn out to be your child or sibling or someone you sit next to at a church meeting. I also know that I've only been able to learn more about myself because others have been open about who they are and I've seen reflections of myself. [00:27:30] There's a line in the next song that the choir will sing about the words that don't come out. And I think any queer person, and maybe any human, will be able to relate to that experience of having a big complicated mess that's all in your head, in your heart. Maybe you only held it in for a short time, or maybe it was years. For me, it was months, because I'm exhausted. I don't want to do another hard thing right now. I want to sit at camp for a while, catch my breath. [00:28:00] But then there's that call from deep inside me and far beyond me, urging me on this journey. And reminding me of the promise in Isaiah which says, I will be there with you, even when things are overwhelming, I'm right there with you. And so sometimes we need to be the ones to show that love and solidarity to others who are struggling and overwhelmed. For those of us who are part of the church, how can we make the unconditional [00:28:30] love of God real to those who are still being traumatized and who feel that love can't reach them? Now, I promised you a poem, it's coming in a moment. I just found out that the Paris Review has this, um, advice column, a poetry prescription where you can write in about whatever hard stuff is going on and whatever difficult emotions you're going through and you'll get recommended a poem, which I just think is a brilliant idea. And someone wrote in saying, I'm a trans [00:29:00] guy with religious parents who are unsupportive when they acknowledge my transness, and they really acknowledge it at all. I mainly feel that I do not belong or fit in with my family. And Sarah, who chose this poem, says, Jennifer's poem is about her body and her body's story. And it isn't the same as yours, but I do want you to know that you, too, are solid matter. I cannot see your shoulders from here, but I care about what they carry. I hope you find kinship with people [00:29:30] who recognize and celebrate you choosing a courageous, honest life. And that is my prayer too. It's a poem about resilience and connection. And the need for connection. And after that we'll have another song from the choir that also speaks to those themes. While we sing I invite you to think about who in your family, community, or further away needs to feel love. The love of God, or the love of kinship and connection and community. What lines are you [00:30:00] willing to cross to make them know that they are loved? The poem is called My Trans Body by Jennifer Espinoza. I pick up the phone and send you some words about my trans body. They float across America and are careful not to touch anything between, between us or worry about who sees them. They just crackle and spin and soar through the air, [00:30:30] observing scenes of everyday events. Many birds moving like a single animal. Trees swaying in place. Men being men to everything's detriment. When you hear my words it reminds me I'm solid matter. In some sense I am the daydream of an alternative universe. In another sense I'm far too present here. I say, look at my shoulders. Look at all that I carry.[00:31:00] But all anyone sees is their shape. No one hears what my legs do or remembers how I built them from nothing. How I trudged through the dull grey shit of a gendered life until I could no longer take it. They make movies about us being sad and dying, but they never talk about what it is for us to be alive. To love life so much, we choose this brokenness just to have the smallest taste of it. I'm not trying to play with [00:31:30] your emotions. I don't want to be your inspirational object. I'm saying I am here now. Embrace me. Or get out of my way. I have big plans. They involve staying alive. They involve claiming my space and never being quiet again.[00:35:30] Yes, it's true. The prayers of the people, love maker, life giver and pain bearer. We pray for healing and hope [00:36:00] for those who have witnessed or endured violence. May they be surrounded by support and love. We pray for healing for those who have turned their own pain into violence against others. May they come to see another way is possible. We pray for the wisdom, courage and unity. Needed to help us attack the roots of violence and genocide. The hatred, [00:36:30] intolerance and misinformation that dehumanises whole groups of people. Stripping away their rights and dignity. And eliminating whole communities. The lies that divide us into the false binaries of us and them. Friend and enemy. Good and evil. We pray that we may have the strength to overcome any fear or apathy that might hinder us from speaking up or taking action. [00:37:00] We pray that advocates and peacemakers will have the resources they need and have their work and words amplified and that governments and organizations will heed their calls. We pray these prayers in the name of the one who is beyond all norm. And in the book today, we pray for peace in all conflicted regions around the world. We pray for the desperately needed humanitarian aid to get to the people of [00:37:30] Gaza, and for the Israeli hostages to be freed. In the circle of prayer today, we think today of the people of Croatia and Slovenia, and the organizations working for reconciliation in Croatia and Slovenia. We hold all refugees in our hearts. and pray in particular for those who are still detained in Australia. We give thanks for recent progress, and pray that their calls for justice might yet be answered with compassion. [00:38:00] In New Zealand we remember those in Parliament, and today we name Ricardo Menendez March, list, and Honourable Mark Mitchell Whangaparaoa. Here in the Central Presbytery we pray for the leaders and people of Balblock, Leperton, Co operating Church and New Plymouth. We bring all our prayers together in the prayer for St. Andrews. If you are visiting with us this morning, I invite you, if you wish, to use this prayer for your place as well as for ours.[00:38:30] Bless your people, God, and renew our life in this place. Refresh us with a spirit of love and respect for all who follow the Jesus way. For those whose pathways differ from our own. and for care of the earth and its creatures. Bless the cities in which we live, that they may be places where honest dealing, good government, the desire for [00:39:00] beauty, and the care for others flourish. Bless this church, that what we know of your will may become what we do, and what we believe, the strong impulse of our worship and work. May we find ways to contribute to bringing about transformation of hearts and the transition of our world from grief to celebration, from shame [00:39:30] to pride, from ignorance and misinformation to understanding, from othering to connection and love, from complacency and helplessness to hope. And may we know hope to be an ongoing, unfurling action we support each other to continue. Amen. IRN: 3665 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/trans_awareness_week_at_st_peters.html ATL REF: ATL URL: TITLE: Trans Awareness Week at St Peters USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Jem Traylen; Michael Toy; Rev. Jean Malcolm; Rev. Stephen King INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 1960s; 2020s; Anglicanism; Aotearoa New Zealand; Christianity; Ghuznee Street; Godfrey Wilson; Jem Traylen; Michael Toy; Posie Parker; Posie Parker counter protest; Rev. Jean Malcolm; Rev. Stephen King; St Andrew's on the Terrace; St Peter's church; Transgender awareness week; Wellington; Willis Street; bell tower; church; decoration; equality; queer; queerphobia; trans; trans awareness; transgender; transphobia DATE: 12 November 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: St Peter's church, cnr Willis and Ghuznee Street, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the decorating of St Peter's church on Willis Street, Wellington. The church was decorated to honour and celebrate Transgender Awareness Week 2023. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: December 2023 TEXT: [00:00:00] So, my name is Michael Toy. I am a lay minister here at St. Peter's on Willis. It's an Anglican church in Te Aro, Wellington. And why are we here today? So, tomorrow starts the Trans Awareness Week. And so, here at St. Peter's, we have a history of Um, being activists and agitators for inclusion of all rainbow peoples, especially within the church, um, and outside of the church. And so, um, a few [00:00:30] of us have been, um, planning some decorations just to celebrate and mark the week and to make sure that everyone knows that. Churches can and should be places of inclusion, of belonging, of liberation, um, for all people, especially trans people. And when you say decorations, what are we talking about? Uh, so we've got quite a few plans. So we had some lofty plans, um, and had to scale them back down. We've, um, got some fabric that we weave through our fence. Um, we, during Pride Week, we do [00:01:00] a rainbow colored weave, um, and this week we'll do a weave with the, um, trans fly colors of blue and pink and white, um. And I think it's, it's a, it's a way of showing that, um, even those barriers, those places, um, that have been, um, obstacles, things like fences, um, they can be redeemed, and they can be places that enfold and protect, uh, and enclose, um, and not [00:01:30] just barriers to exclusion, for exclusion. Why was it important for you to do this today? Um, so I'm a queer Christian and, um, you know, it's just always been, uh, on my heart and on my, um, and my journey throughout Christianity, that story of liberation has been really important to me. And so it's really important to me for, um, Christians to be able to take a stand, uh, and to reclaim, um, this message of liberation when so many other churches and so many other [00:02:00] people of faith only use their religion as a tool for exclusion and control. Hi, I'm Jim Traylan. I'm a member of the St. Peter's on Willis Church, and we decided this year to support the kaupapa of Trans Awareness Week. In fact, we were approached by St. Andrews on the Terrace. Both churches have, in fact, being staunch advocates of queer rights, probably dating back to at least the 1960s. So it's a very proud tradition. [00:02:30] And, um, so yeah, we decided to join forces and not just, like, focus on Trans Day of Remembrance, but actually, um, maybe sort of highlight it all through the week. And we're getting quite excited because we're going to actually light up the church in Trans Pride colours. So we didn't even have to go to the council to ask for them to do some lighting. We're going to do it ourselves. So, St Peter's has a long history with rainbow communities. Can you talk to me a wee bit about that? I'm probably the wrong [00:03:00] person to ask, but, um, it was something around about 1967 or thereabouts, there was this famous, um, Sermon on live radio by I believe it's the Reverend Godfrey or Godfrey Morgan Godfrey Godfrey Wilson Godfrey Wilson That sounds right. Yes, and I don't think he told anybody of his plans, but he's a subtly started preaching on I'm a sexual rights which 1960s would have been a bit of an eye opener to people tuning in for a church sermon. So [00:03:30] Yes, so from about that time, and I'm sure St. Andrews also from about that time have been on the forefront of preaching for queer rights and and for, you know, in making church as an inclusive space, which I think is really important. My own personal viewpoint on it is I mean, I think the church has to take a risk, has to take a lot of responsibility for the, I guess, residual queer phobia in our society because I think a lot of that can [00:04:00] be traced back to to, um, church doctrines. And so, um, it's just great to be part of a church that is Doing its best to address that issue, um, including, you know, within, within our own church, and, but also, yeah, um, taking the, you know, the, um, the advocacy out into the community, um, and also, you know, also, um, I think another role that churches can play is, um, trans people and, and other queer [00:04:30] folk, you know, often, um, are struggling, and, you know, for there to be a, a safe, sort of, a safe place and a, an oasis, you know, that they can come to just, just, just to hang out or, or receive some kind of support. Um, I think that's an important role that, that we can play as well. You mentioned queerphobia and, uh, this year has been horrendous for transphobia, um, around the world, but particularly in Aotearoa. How has that affected you? [00:05:00] Um, well, I suppose in some ways, I like, cause I'm I think I'm about seven or eight years into having come out and transitioning, so I was kind of settled into an almost comfortable routine and then suddenly, um, she whose name shall not be spoken to our country. So I guess Um, and I came out at a time when, when it was just sort of people talking about a trans tipping point. Um, you know, [00:05:30] transgender people had, had sort of started to become a bit more known as, as people within our society. And I'd seen several years, I think, of steady progress. And then I think, I think it's always inevitable that there's some kind of pushback. And, and, but, um, yeah. You know, that, that did affect me in that sense. But what I really welcomed was the fact that I went to the rally in Wellington and wasn't that just spectacular? Like, tens of thousands of Wellingtonians turning out to support trans [00:06:00] people and affirming, um, our place in the society. And, um, even there was somebody from advocating a different viewpoint was there. It still remained relatively peaceful, so I was very glad for that. And I guess also it's good to keep in mind that actually the, uh, the people that have issues, it's a very small minority of people, isn't it? It is a small minority, but, um, I mean, I have to say, yeah, it, um, unfortunately that small minority can, can actually make a [00:06:30] difference. I mean, you sort of like, you know, in my personal experience, I have encountered occasionally people who've Um, you know, had, had an issue with me or made me feel a bit uncomfortable and it's always, you're always wondering like, because of that, when you meet a stranger, where they're coming from, um, if they're not being particularly friendly. So, um, but at least it's a still a small minority and hopefully a, a diminishing minority as the years go by. Alright, thank you all for gathering for our, um, [00:07:00] decorating the church for Trans Awareness Week. We begin with the litany and chorus of Thanksgiving. For the image of God in every person, thanks be to God. For human diversity and its joys and life giving challenges, thanks be to God. For women and their diversity, thanks be to God. For men in their diversity, thanks be to God. For transgender, non binary, and gender fluid people in their [00:07:30] diversity, thanks be to God. For those loved ones who share the lives of gender diverse people, thanks be to God. For professionals who help bring support and strength to gender diverse people. Thanks be to God. For those who give voice and expression to gender diversity, thanks be to God. For those who work for justice and empowerment, thanks be to God. For religious leaders and congregations who are truly affirming, thanks be to God. For continuing revelation and [00:08:00] life giving grace, thanks be to God. The reading from today comes from Genesis chapter 16 verses 10 through 13. The angel of the Lord also said to Hagar, I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said to her, Now you have conceived and shall bear a son, you shall call him Ishmael, for the Lord has given heed to your affliction. He shall be a wild ass of a man with his hand against [00:08:30] everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he shall live at odds with all his kin. So she named the Lord who spoke to her, you or Elroy, the God who sees for. She said, have I really seen God and remained alive after seeing God? I wanted to open the floor for any comments or, um, prayers you'd like to offer on behalf of, um, [00:09:00] yourself or the trans community or the broad, whiter, queer community. Um, to me, this passage speaks To queer liberation, because it's the story of Hagar, that person who wasn't meant to belong. To Ishmael, that person who wasn't meant to belong in the text. And yet, even those people in the story have a place. Even those people still get a voice. And Hagar indeed is the very first person to name God in all of the Hebrew scriptures. The God who sees. And I [00:09:30] think that God continues to see us. Continues to create in us. Um, and to move in us. And all of our diversity and our fluidity, um, as we move in, in a graceful and queerful way. I'll open the floor. So for me, uh, Christianity is about Jesus saying, I have two commandments, both of which are about love. And what does love mean if you exclude [00:10:00] even one of your fellow human beings? So, for me, true Christianity is about inclusivity and It was a tragedy that, um, because of church doctrines in the past that, um, queer people and trans folk were kind of driven underground and persecuted. And so I think it is important for the church to show leadership and, and, um, take responsibility for that as, and I'm very proud to be part of St. Peter's. So I pray that St. Peter's, um, [00:10:30] reaffirms itself in its mission to be an inclusive church. And carry on being a beacon of light in this inner city. Amen. Um, for me, having grandchildren, at least one of whom I think is, um, gender diverse, I feel that everybody has the divine right to be and to express fully who they are and what they can [00:11:00] become. I, I guess I have learned that, um, there's no one pattern of a person that we all, um, that, that God, Love's diversity. So, why shouldn't we? I agree, um, I think that the message of the Bible and the message of Christ is about love. And so I think [00:11:30] loving people for who they are and who they identify to be is the main commandment that we have. And I really enjoy the affirmation of a church like this. Um, St. Peter's has It's been a firming of the queer community since 1967, I think it was, maybe it was 69, with, 67 with um, Godfrey Wilson's um, broadcast sermon. We still [00:12:00] hold. to that path, but the fact that even after all those years, the queer community is not fully integrated and accepted, both into the body of the church and the structures of the church, but also into broader society, reminds us that there is still work to be done, there's still more to be done, and that the opportunity to decorate the church is a way to just proclaim the reality of that, that there is still so much more to be done. [00:12:30] And, uh, this is a great opportunity for St. Peter's to, to reconnect and re engage, um, with that proclamation. Loving Creator, let the rain come and wash away the ancient grudges, the bitter hatreds held and nurtured over generations. Let the rain wash away the memory of the heart and neglect. Then, O God, let the sun come out and fill the sky with beautiful rainbows. Let the warmth of the [00:13:00] sun heal us wherever we are broken. Let it burn away the fog so that each of us sees each other clearly. So that we can embrace each other as more than accents, gender, sexual orientation, or skin color. Let the warmth and brightness of the sun melt our selfishness so that we can share the joy and sorrow of our neighbors. And let the light of the sun be so strong that we will see all people as our neighbors. Papatūānuku, nourished by rain. We ask you to bring [00:13:30] forth flowers to surround us with your beauty and let the monga teach our hearts to reach upward to heaven. Then, dear God, grant us comfort, give us peace, and allow us strength to enable us to stand up, fight for, and be a voice for equality. In Jesus name, Amen. May the kaleidoscopic delight of God fill our souls with joy and give us strength to celebrate and embody Christ's love in the world. In the [00:14:00] blessing of God, the God who sees, the God who gives new names, and the God who continues to create within our midst, bring us to our true and loving home, now and always. Amen. Alright, so uh, now comes the fun part. Um, we're gonna decorate the church. Um, there's some cloth and the, the, the fabric clearance shred brag. Um, with that, uh, we can weave through this front fence here, the side [00:14:30] fence there, or maybe the side fence over here. Um, that's as far as I've gotten in terms of planning. Um, I've also got some lights that I will try to, um, hook up and tie down, um, and then I'll be snaking up into the, um, the bell tower to try to get some lights up there. But, um, thank you all for being here and, um, go with God's blessing. Michael. Uh, kia ora, I'm Jean Malcolm. I'm one of the priests here at St Peter's on the corner of Willis Street in Garsney. Um, and [00:15:00] today we, uh, Decorating our fence to, uh, make it clear that we are supportive of all those who are transgender, um, so that we can proudly wear the colors of blue, pink and white and pink and blue. So how, how are you decorating the church? So, first of all, we've, um, we have a set of, of the rainbow colors that we sometimes. weave in and out of the wrought iron fence in front of the church. Um, and today we are doing the, the trans colours. [00:15:30] Um, and so pieces of fabric that we're weaving so that people going past can see those colours. Why is it important for St Peter's to be doing this? One of the things that we, as part of the DNA of our place, is that we want to be a welcoming place for all. Um, and that includes You know, we have to figure out how to welcome all, including those who aren't very welcoming, um, because everybody is welcome here. Um, so the other thing we have to do is make it a safe place. And [00:16:00] so, this is one of the ways of showing that we want this place to be a safe place for transgender people, where they can find a place to express their spirituality and all, all that they are. The, the church has always had, uh, rainbow flags and, um, information about, for, for rainbow communities. Again, why, why is that important for the church? Um, Sadly, one of the places that has not been safe for rainbow people is churches. Um, and it's one of those things that because so [00:16:30] often, uh, churches were the more conservative way of interpreting the Bible have said that to be a rainbow person is somehow wrong. Rainbow people are generally not happy to be anywhere near a church, but what happens if you're a person who has a Christian faith and you're also a rainbow person? So this is about saying this is a place where both those parts of your identity can be celebrated, yeah. IRN: 2925 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/mira_woldberg.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Mira Woldberg USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Mira Woldberg INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 2020s; Amsterdam; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands; Fiji; Grant Robertson; ILGA World Conference (2019); Indonesia; Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand (ITANZ); Mira Woldberg; Mr Gay Syria (film); Netherlands; New York City; Out and About (film); Pacific; Pride Parade (Wellington); Pride parade; The Hague (Netherlands); Turkey; Tīwhanawhana; United Nations; United States of America; Wellington; Wellington International Pride Parade (WIPP); acceptance; ambassador; boycott; climate change; corporate sponsorship; delft blue kissing couple; diplomat; diversity; diversity and inclusion; dolls; equality; human rights; love; police; religion; sexual identity; solidarity; suicide; sustainability; terrorism; tolerance; visibility DATE: 26 February 2020 YEAR: 2020 LOCATION: Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, Floor 10, 20 Ballance Street, Wellington CONTEXT: TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2023 TEXT: [00:00:00] I'm ambassador in New Zealand since, uh, August 2018. Uh, I worked for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands, in fact, already since 1998. Uh, I've been posted in Jakarta and in New York for both for four years, but also in The Hague as well. And, um, when I was, uh, up for, like, uh, change my posting again, Um, I was really looking forward to a, to a, to a country, uh, where you can work, like [00:00:30] do your own initiatives also and, and, and, um, yeah, determine a little bit more your agenda than maybe, uh, uh, it's possible with other, with other countries. And New Zealand, I mean, I had a very positive, uh, work relation with New Zealand diplomats in New York, very close, also in Jakarta, by the way. Very like minded country, we work together on sustainable development, on climate, on human rights. So I really look forward to working in and with New [00:01:00] Zealand. What were your initial impressions? My initial impressions? Now, a very beautiful country, um, it was very, uh, I mean, definitely I arrived in Wellington. Uh, and the view from my office is just stunning, and you see the harbor, you see like the, the mountains in the, in, in the back. Uh, very green, um, yeah, and so much like the sea, the water, I really loved it, yeah. So, since arriving, uh, you and the embassy have been [00:01:30] doing quite a number of Rainbow LGBTI events. Where does that commitment come from, uh, for supporting LGBTI issues? Um, we have, I mean, for, for the Dutch government, human rights is really a kind of, uh, the core of foreign policy and it has not been like a recent, uh, matter, but already since, uh, I think that in, in 78, we said like the cornerstone of the Dutch foreign policy is promotion and protection of human rights.[00:02:00] Um, but of course, priorities changed in these, in the course of these decades. And, um, uh, support for promotion and protection of the human rights of LGBTI plus community is, is really, uh, in this, in this also in this government, very strong priority. So that was of course, one of the reason like also formally why it is so, so important to do like worldwide to try to make an improved the situation, uh, fight [00:02:30] discrimination. Um, but. Um, I think for me also personally, I worked a lot on human rights. I also started in fact, like at Amnesty International, uh, when I, uh, had my law degree. Uh, so this is also very personal topic that I think is extremely important that we highlight and, um, I think, yes, New Zealand has already a very positive situation, so in that respect it's maybe less prominent, I would say, a big issue for New Zealand, but I still think that [00:03:00] for worldwide it is, it needs continuous, uh, attention. I mean the situation is not yet perfect. I mean, having a good law structure, um, a good rule of law does not say that discrimination does not take place or that all people feel respected. Um, and apart from that, I'm also accredited to the Pacific Islands. And in, of course, in, in a number of the islands, um, the rule of law in general is okay, but the law structure around LGBTI [00:03:30] is, is, is far from, uh, from perfect. That is something of a priority for us. Try to work on decriminalization, um, and work around and providing more protection in, uh, for human rights of LGBTI in the Pacific. How do you navigate, um, I guess the different cultural aspects between, say, in New Zealand with LGBTI rainbow rights? And in the Pacific, I mean, because your role, you have to sit in between the two, how, [00:04:00] how do you do that now? I think that for us, for most important, I mean, in New Zealand, you can, of course, openly be very active in this matter. And I'm not. Like, uh, it's not a, not a big issue for people. I mean, maybe they don't agree, but of course we can openly, uh, promoted by events, by having the, the, uh, human rights film screenings, uh, panel discussions, uh, we can support that openly. I think that, that with the Pacific, I think it's up to local, uh, people actually [00:04:30] to try to, to work around in a way that they think serve, uh, their. course best. I think definitely in the specific context where like religion, religion in the Pacific is such a crucial issue. Um, but for everyone and that like, um, and there I, I definitely understand we have, there are also many local groups in, in, in the Pacific as well. And what, what I try to do is actually try to support them to, uh, [00:05:00] plead for, for their cause. And that's, I think. for the Pacific the best way. It is more effective than I, than if I would go there and say like, loco, and let's change it. I mean, it's not a Dutch position. We think it's important that everyone and all people should be not discriminated against, should be free from violence and that all governments need to work on that. But it is important that local, uh, communities, uh, work in a way that they think works best. and is more, most effective. [00:05:30] So do you get, um, any pushback from the Pacific nations in regard to that? Not yet, I would say. No, I don't, no, I think because, I mean, again, I'm not, uh, going there hammering them like, uh, like all, um, I know best, um, uh, but I think it is really up. To the local communities. And I think, yes, the position of the Dutch government is not a big surprise. We are very active, not only like in bilateral [00:06:00] relations, but definitely also in a multilateral fora like in the United Nations. We have, uh, we're part of different groups that really focus on LGBTI rights in the UN and in the international arena. We are a strong supporter of the UN Special Rapporteur on Sochi. So I think that that is. That's sexual orientation and gender identity to, uh, promote also human rights for the, for the group. So this mandate, which we're very, very actively lobbied, [00:06:30] um, uh, for, I think, um, it's not a big surprise. And, and I, I think it's also important to highlight that, for example, Uh, Fiji in the Human Rights Council also supported, uh, the mandate, uh, extension. So I think that in a way, there is already something going on, uh, in the different communities as well. Looking at your, um, events and support, uh, for rainbow LGBTI communities in New Zealand, could you, um, just [00:07:00] take me through some of the events that you've been associated with? What we, uh, did like the first event was like the film screening in December 2018 when we had, uh, Mr. Gay, uh, Syria, which was a movie about, very interesting, about, uh, a refugee in Turkey who'd participated in a, in a, in a kind of, uh, I mean, a competition, but like Mr. Gay, Syria, very, I think, um, not, not too heavy movie, but still highlighted some of the issues and, and especially [00:07:30] in a, in a challenging. Context like in Turkey and in Syria, um, I think we had like an, um, we also had like the support for the Pacific day to discuss human rights issues, uh, in the margins of the big conference, the world conference of the international, uh, lesbian and gay association that took place last year. So we work together also with Tifa Fana and [00:08:00] also with Intersex New Zealand to try to have a day where we brought like several Pacific activists from all different communities to discuss what is important for them. What is like the human rights protection? What do they need? What are, um, actually, um, their wishes? And I think that was very useful to bring people together because this specific conference was really one of the first times that we had so many Pacific activists coming together and learning from like [00:08:30] experiences, not only from like it within the region, but also from outside the region. We had activists obviously coming from Africa, from Latin America. And, um, from, um, a number of states where it is also very difficult, and I think that that is important, that they get strengthened for their own actions and their own, uh, initiatives. Um, so this was an important part. We also organized another human rights film screening on. out and about. Um, and, uh, that was around, [00:09:00] I think, Human Rights Day in last, uh, December 2019. And we participated in a pride parade in Wellington. Yeah. Just getting back to the ILGA World Conference. Now that happened, um, just at the same time as the Christchurch terror attacks happened in New Zealand. And that was one of the, I mean, for me, that was really shocking because it was the largest kind of terror attack in New Zealand we've experienced. Can you remember that day and what it was like for you? Yeah, the terrorist attack, that was [00:09:30] really a very, uh, extremely sad day, and in fact, like, for us as well, this became, this was of course an enormous shock, uh, for Europe, terrorist attacks are maybe, uh, not that unknown, to be honest, but for the Netherlands, it is, to be honest, and the scale was like so, uh, so, so big that it was really, uh, almost, um, Yeah, too big to really, um, understand what was, what was going [00:10:00] on actually in, in Christchurch. We had at that time an event at the residence. And of course, like during the first news, uh, reports, it was not very clear what happened, but then when it became clear, we more or less also stopped the whole event. And of course, like, uh, try to get information about, uh, no, yeah, also whether there are like Dutch involved or other people involved that we knew because as an embassy, we have to be also. So careful in, in, in, in taking care of that. But of course, in, in [00:10:30] contacting New Zealand authorities, um, our King expressed his condolences, the Prime Minister as well. It was just a horrific, uh, day and I think an extremely sad day for New Zealand. It must have been very sobering for the, uh, conference participants as well. I mean, it was so, that, that conference was so diverse and it was talking about human rights and then to have this kind of happening at the same time. Yeah. Thank you. No, that's definitely what I, I noted as well because on the Sunday we had in fact the day about, uh, that was the [00:11:00] Friday was the attack, Sunday was the, the day on the Pacific with the Pacific participants and of course everyone had in his mind like this, uh, yeah, act of like complete intolerance about, um, yeah, about hate, um, um, about not respecting people. That's really at the core of course of the, of, yeah. Of yeah, not feeling part of a community that it was a real big thing for all participants as [00:11:30] well. But I think it was also good to, to, um, to still try to also continue with the conference because this was a unique. Um, moment and it was very important that we had all these people together that we also try to discuss the issues that are, uh, for them a current, uh, day for every day challenge. You mentioned also that last year you had the, um, human rights day, uh, screening and talk in December [00:12:00] and at that talk and at that screening, um, you talked publicly about a friend who had passed away and how their parents hadn't supported their sexuality. What impact did that death have on you? Um, that was a, uh, that had a huge impact on me, actually, because it was an extreme good friend. Uh, and he did, just didn't, just passed away. He committed suicide. And, uh, I think that that was for me really... Underlined the [00:12:30] importance, how important it is that people feel respected, feel safe, and feel, um, just accepted as a human being and that's, yeah, the, the, uh, who you love or, or, or, yeah, who you are, that is really, uh, the most important, um, very important to be public about it and, or not, public or at least public to, to your friends and your family. And I think that that is very important. [00:13:00] Um, yeah, about your own identity that you really feel that you can be free to express who you are. And, and I mean, life is already quite complicated, uh, for lots of different issues, but I think that you cannot even be open about this, which doesn't harm anyone. And it's all about love. It's, I just. don't understand that that, uh, is, is, uh, that people have, like, uh, problems with that actually. Yeah. And, and so is this one of the [00:13:30] reasons for marching in the, uh, pride parades, that visibility to show that actually, you know, you should be able to be who you are? Now, I think that it made me realize that it is not, uh, a given that, uh, people feel that. And like you can, you can also say like, Oh, it's not an issue for me and I'm a friend and blah, blah. Uh, that is something I think may be easy for people around, uh, people who maybe do not feel secure and do not [00:14:00] feel. And I think that the pride parade can actually also not only, uh, express, uh, is an expression by the people who of course are part of the community, but also other people. who, uh, can show solidarity and say like, yeah, we are there. We are with all, uh, we are with you. Yeah. Can you describe for me, um, your first, uh, time marching in a pride parade and what that was like? Um, that was, uh, now, I mean, I've been, of course, in Amsterdam, you have [00:14:30] a huge, uh, pride parade, which is. course, like, uh, like, uh, very big event. Um, so I've been, of course, like as a, as a person who watched it. So that, that is, that is something that I did like many, uh, many years actually. Um, also with this friend, by the way. Uh, but, uh, uh, in Wellington itself, I thought it was very, yeah, it was very nice uplifting. Uh, I. event and, um, [00:15:00] very, very good. Yeah. Very positive. I think it was a very positive atmosphere around it. And it's, uh, I think that, uh, yeah, we all felt pride that we were part of that actually. And the, the two large inflatable kissing dolls. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's what I really liked when we saw it in like, Uh, it was developed, the concept in, in Ottawa, uh, so that was the colleagues in, uh, in the embassy and we thought like this is so good because it really is a very, [00:15:30] um, also again, a very positive, um, expression, but it also, uh, has like this very clear Dutch touch with having the Delft blue color in it and making it so clear like this is something that, uh, it's, it's about love. It is about, Uh, equality and, uh, something that we all should be, uh, sharing and, and actively working towards for, so that's, yeah. Now, there's a, uh, Pride Parade in Wellington coming up very [00:16:00] shortly and there's been a couple of media stories, um, calling for a boycott of the parade because, uh, some people don't think it's about the rainbow communities. It's not by, for, and about the rainbow communities. Has the embassy been approached, and if so, what's your reaction been? No, we have not, we are not approached. Of course, we also, uh, read the news reports, and I think, of course, I mean, as a Dutch embassy, I'm, I'm not the one judging, like... discussion between the Rainbow [00:16:30] community in New Zealand. I can only speak for myself and the experience, uh, also in the Netherlands, where we have a very, uh, big pride parade, which is very inclusive, which like, uh, contains, uh, like corporates, yes, but also lots of communities, also army, police. We have also... both where you have now like the, the migrant community, um, is part of it. Um, and I think it's growing and growing. And I think that do that by that, that also people who [00:17:00] might not normally maybe feel comfortable in, in joining a pride by looking at so much diversity with. in the pride that really brings other people to join. So I'm a strong supporter of a, of a big pride that is inclusive. And I think that within that, um, within that context. And I think again, because what I said also before, I think it's for, I think it could also [00:17:30] contribute if it is about showing solidarity and yes, maybe. Uh, I do not, I'm not part of the LGBTI community as such, but I definitely have, oh yeah, so many friends actually, um, but also I would like others to feel, uh, safe, respected, and, and, and not discriminated against. So I, I, I, I think it's a good way to express that. But I mean, again, how the Wellington... pride parade is organized or I don't even, I mean, that's of [00:18:00] course up to, to the, to, uh, everyone who is involved here in Wellington and where they feel comfortable with. At the, um, LGBTI rainbow events that you've been to in New Zealand, what are the biggest concerns people are coming up to you and talking about? What, what are the issues? Um, now issues about like, uh, uh, for example, when we had the event in, in December 29, uh, yeah, 19, the last day. Uh, which was, of course, much more [00:18:30] focused on children, uh, and parents, and, and how difficult that is, actually, that you come out, that you start a discussion, um, that it is, um, that it takes time for people, uh, to actually, um, raise this issue. And that is, that was definitely shared, uh, after that movie. Uh, experiences, but also the settings of families or sometimes like, uh, yeah, like very conservative, uh, um, family setting or that [00:19:00] maybe the parents are fine, but that they feel maybe also not supported by their family and friends or feel insecure about that. And that has of course also impact on the relation between child and parent again. So I think that that these are, were issues that I think are. common. I mean, that's, that's still something in the Netherlands as well. This is not only New Zealand. This is, I think, worldwide an issue. At that film screening, you screened a documentary called Out and About. Could you tell me a wee bit about that? [00:19:30] Out and About is in fact, um, um, focuses on like this relation between Parents and children and the children. So it's about parents where like the son or daughter is gay or lesbian. Um, and that they live in a society like, uh, for example, Russia and, uh, Indonesia. where it is not so, um, broadly accepted like in New Zealand or the Netherlands, um, and the struggle they face, [00:20:00] but also, um, how they, um, uh, yeah, how they looked like when they came out, when, what they did with the parents, but also like the parents vis a vis their direct community, um, and about, um, yeah, the love of parents for children and that that in the end also, uh, really was something, um, that overtook their concerns. And I think it is, it was also a [00:20:30] very honest movie about like why, why also parents like, of course there are like issues about religion. But also issues about that parents felt like, Oh my gosh, my, now my, my child will have such a difficult life. There will be discrimination that might not be respected. And the concern of a parent to a child was, I think, something that people can definitely identify with in a way. Um, but also see the struggle and see in, in, in the end, also [00:21:00] a bit of a, you know, yeah. A positive story as well. I found it a really confronting documentary but also fascinating having that kind of core of same sex attraction but looked at through a variety of cultural lenses. Yeah. Yeah, so it was very confronting. No, I agree. Very confronting because it's also, because maybe to highlight, it is [00:21:30] also about in the end, You still don't know, like, in what way everyone is really completely understood as a child by their parents, to be honest. And that's, that's of course also at the core, like, are they, they are respected, they are, they are, they are loving their kids. That's, that's so clear. But whether they can completely understand and that's, that's still open, in fact. Yeah. Now, you've lived in a [00:22:00] variety of countries and coming to New Zealand and living and working in New Zealand now. Could you tell me what should we be grateful for living here in New Zealand and what should we be working on? Oh, no, I think you should be grateful for a lot. Um, because I mean, this is, uh, this is a very open country. You have extremely I mean, uh, it's also ranking one of the highest if it is like not corrupt. It's not like freedom of press, [00:22:30] freedom of expression, um, the sense of freedom, but also of, of yeah, the solidarity. I think that in a way also, that's what you could see also after the Christchurch attacks. It was really amazing, uh, the reaction of the, of the New Zealand people. Towards the victims, towards like, uh, uh, the groups that were targeted and, uh, a real sense of solidarity. I think that's very, uh, that's something that you can be really proud of and very happy with.[00:23:00] So I think, um, yeah, what, what should you work on? I mean, that's of course very, very difficult to, for me to say, I mean, I think that you have quite some common challenges that you share actually with the Netherlands, like The Netherlands, we have a challenge in fighting, uh, the addressing climate change, uh, working on a more sustainable, um, uh, society. And I think that these, uh, are definitely issues that we work on. And I think to also, and I think, um, Minister Grant Robertson said this also at the [00:23:30] opening of, if we look back at the topic of this interview, but minister. Grant Robertson said at the start of the conference, it's not only about tolerance. Uh, if you look at like respect for minorities, but also about, um, LGBTI community and like almost, yeah, in fact, like your whole society, it's about embracing diversity and actively. actively embracing it. It's not like just merely tolerate. And that's, I think, a [00:24:00] very crucial, uh, um, message, which I think is very relevant for the Netherlands as well as other Western countries. Just finally, um, 2020 this year is the 75th anniversary of the United Nations. If you had a magic wand, uh, what would your ideal world look like? My ideal world, I think, my ideal world would be indeed, because human rights is so close to my [00:24:30] heart, I think that, that for me the ideal would be that for everyone, indeed, human rights are promoted, are respected, and all countries would live in a very free society, where they feel that, um, that they're not excluded. Discriminated against, that there is no violence committed, no wars. That would be my ideal world. IRN: 3660 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_studies_now_welby_ings.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Welby Ings - Rainbow Studies Now keynote USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Rebekah Galbraith; Welby Ings INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 1950s; 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; AIDS Parachute campaign (1986); American Library Association; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avondale Library; Berlin; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Carrington Polytechnic; Charlotte Museum; China; Drag Storytime; Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Gareth Watkins; Germany; HIV/AIDS; Ia (research portal); Jennie Livingston; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Magnus Hirschfeld; Michelle Tea; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; Nazi Germany; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Oscar Wilde; Paris Is Burning (film); Pukeatua; Punch (film); Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community (2023); Rainbow flag; Rebekah Galbraith; Robert Pouwhare; Russia; Tauranga; Te Awamutu College; United Kingdom; University of Auckland School of Medicine; Welby Ings; Wellington; academia; academics; activism; anger; aversion therapy; book banning; book burning; books; burning; coming out; concentration camp; dawn raid; death; diversity; drag; exoticization; family; gay; going on safari (hunting gays); hegemonic power; hegemony; heteronormativity; homosexual law reform; identity; invisibility; invisiblising; lesbian; mistrust; myth; open access; pandemic; pink triangle (symbol); polari; prejudice; pridenz. com; protest; quilt; refugee; research; school; shearing; spiritual abuse; stereotypes; transgender; university DATE: 23 November 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington, Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington CONTEXT: Professor Welby Ings delivers the keynote address at the symposium Rainbow Studies Now: Legacies of Community. Welby is introduced by Dr. Rebekah Galbraith. Welby's presentation focuses on the recent establishement of Ia, the first multi-disciplinary queer research portal inside a university. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: November 2023 TEXT: [00:00:00] So, kia ora everyone. My name is Rebekah Galbraith and I am the convener of the Rainbow Research Network here at Te Herenga Waka, Victoria University. Um, to all our speakers and guests today, welcome to Rainbow Studies Now, Legacies of Community. Um, to get things started, it gives me great pleasure to introduce Professor Welby Ames to deliver today's keynote, Building the Family Home, Growing Queer Research Inside Our Institutions. Welby is professor in design at Auckland University of Technology. He is a gay man [00:00:30] and a consultant to many international organisations on issues of creativity and learning. In the 1980s he was arrested numerous times. in Aotearoa. During the struggle for homosexual law reform. So, a well worth cause. Welby is also an internationally acclaimed director, author, designer, illustrator and filmmaker. His book, Disobedient Teaching, has become an influential reference in rethinking pedagogy and the culture of [00:01:00] schooling. In 2001, Welby was awarded the Prime Minister's inaugural Supreme Award for Tertiary Teaching Excellence. And in 2014 and 2022, he was awarded university medals for his contributions to research, pedagogy, and creativity. So I'm sure you'll join me in welcoming Welby. I feel very proud to see this. Kia [00:01:30] ora mai tātou. Ngā mihi nui ngā kupi a kupu katoa. In the mana, in the reo, in the mate, in the whānau o takotāpui, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, that's my mum and dad. And, um, Our manga is the one up in the corner, it's called ua. Um, [00:02:00] and, uh, our, our, our, our, our river was, is kind of the back waters of the Waikato. Um, and, uh, what you probably, what you can't work out from that photo is there's no electricity in that house. So my dad was a shearing contractor and my mom was a flee. So in the king country, and, uh. We had power when there was money. They, the three kids sitting on the, on the swings, were [00:02:30] three eldest and they're all queer. So, God knows what was in the water at Pukkiatua, but something was in the water. On the swing, you see my twin sister. She's passed now. Um, and we, she was a darling of the education system. She learned to read and write before she could go to school. She, um, She, she was always in the top classes. I couldn't read or write until I was 15. And, uh, my next sister, Suzanne, who's sitting on my mum's lap. [00:03:00] You can tell we're farm care people because look at the bare feet. I mean, it's only, it's only taken in New Zealand a photo like that. But, uh, she became a teacher. And, um, and my parents had to make a journey. Because they'd grown up... They didn't know what, well, they did, they had a vague idea that queer was something really dangerous and you ended up in prison because at the time that that photo was taken, we were put into prison. And we were fired from our jobs, and we weren't, you could refuse to serve us in shops, [00:03:30] and um, and it was really hard keeping accommodation if a landlord decided, for theological reasons, that you didn't belong anywhere near the accommodation. So... What I'm going to share with you is, uh, is, uh, is biased because of those things. So, I went to Taomutu College and I got expelled for feeling, I won't say his name because it's going to be recorded, but feeling him up in the back of the German class and got caught. It was [00:04:00] not a good thing. It was not a good thing to be caught in the back of the German class doing that. It's quite hard to disengage your hands from... Anyway, we won't go... But I tell you what, there were some kids in the front row who blanched, you know. And, uh, and the difference between us was this. Within, uh, three months he had got a girl pregnant at school and got married. And I refused to say sorry. I refused to say that it was all a mistake. [00:04:30] So, uh, school became pretty hellish. And, um... In the end, we both told each other to fuck off, and that was the end of the, uh, schooling. You know, many of us, we would like a life where we could just be left alone to get on with our lives. That's probably the deepest thing we want, just to be able to populate the same space and rights as everybody else. But [00:05:00] that's... Not always the same. And the territory doesn't always get better and better and better. So, I, um, Once I left school, I became heavily involved in protest. But part of that was because of anger. And I didn't know how to constructively change things. So I thought if I threw myself at walls and, um, And, and marched and shouted, Oh, it was a good way of dissipating anger. And it did something in the time. [00:05:30] Over time I, I, I started to think more about, when I became an old, like I'm 67 now, so you know, I should have grown up, so, but what I, what I thought was maybe if I use my abilities, my talent, to try and change things, so all of us have something in common here, we've all made some commitment of our intellect to humanity, some way, we've all decided to do that. [00:06:00] And, and that has got, that can be hugely constructive. So, on one level I, I do the academic thing, but the other thing I do is I, I, I believe our stories are very, very important. And that's why I have such respect for all of our systems that archive or gather stories. Not the stories mediated by the press. Not the stories mediated through the filter of the time, but the stories from the raw ground, from our people telling our stories in our ways, that are [00:06:30] recorded. It's hugely, hugely important. It's our major defense against invisibility. And so, um, I, and amongst other things, I make, um, films. So, it's just a teaser.[00:07:00] So we, we live across the spectrum of worlds in this country, including sports. We, we often face, um, I, I believe a compartment a a, a, an easy compartmentalizing, you're going, oh, if you're that, therefore you must be this. And oftentimes our fight back is to go, no, no. We, we possess the ordinary and the extraordinary. We are in all of those worlds. And, um, you know, it's [00:07:30] interesting the, the critic, so I'm gonna sound like a winker for just a minute. Okay. So just bugger it. It's got the New York Times Critics pick. It just got a great review in the Guardian last week. But it did, it did crap in New Zealand. The film did crap in New Zealand. And the most criticism from here was, the world's not like that anymore. And you go... You try being trans in Putaruru and you tell me that it's not like that anymore. You [00:08:00] try to question something on a deeper level and tell me that it's alright. And one of the things I, I always think there's an extension of the concept of hermene that says that at it's most pernicious what happens is the victims begin policing them. We begin doing the policing. So we go, well, it's alright for us, I live in Central City, wherever, and, you know, it's not like that anymore. And then we marginalise our own people, so as the victims, we marginalise our own people. [00:08:30] And that's why this, and things like this, are so important. Because they bring us and all of our diversity together. So... Enough about that, because what I'm really going to talk about is this. Last year we did something at our, at our university, and it's, it's, this is why I'm so respectful of what Victoria has done with this. So important. Because in wherever we [00:09:00] are, as scholars, whether that be public scholars or scholars inside institutions, the responsibility falls on us to strengthen the world. And to push back against invisibility. To make sure that we cannot be mythologized or erased by false stories because we are present with the true stories. And so... We set up, I'm going to base this around five strange ideas, but they were five ideas that [00:09:30] sat behind a design, a project that was done at the university I come from, at AUT University. So it's invisibility. Refugees, families, mistrust and exoticization. Those are the ideas. They're going to be, they may seem a little strangely out of context, but that's what, those are the coat hangers we're going to hang this on. Okay, so the first one is if we have a look at invisibility. You know, one of the major agents for, for prejudice and [00:10:00] human cruelty to exist. is that you make invisible the humanity of the thing you oppose. And so oftentimes we, uh, that agency has to stay in place for it to do it. So every time we, back, every time you step forward and came out in whatever form, you eroded the invisibility. And I was over in Germany a few years ago, and I was standing at the place where this happened. We, a lot of us know this image, [00:10:30] or we might know this footage that played in the cinemas, including in New Zealand in 1933. This was the Nazis burning the books. I can't stand his voice, so let's just ignore him. What we're not told is we all think that that's, um, the communist text. No, that's our library. That was, that was Magnus Hirschfeld's library, [00:11:00] the sexologist. That was the building that the top floor was made for trans people who couldn't find a home anymore while they were trying to get help. Those are the books that are burning on that pile there. History rewrites that piece out of it. We have faced a history of erasure through burning, through destroying our archives, through destroying our libraries, through erasing the diaries when we die, our families have thrown them on bonfires to [00:11:30] make sure that the letters never get into the public domain. This is a long, long, long history. And it's also institutionalized. But here's the thing that we face, I think, as academics. In 2020, the Education Act, well this was the beginning of COVID, so we weren't taking much notice, but the Education Act got updated. And it's, it described universities as having four features. And while the top one, you know, they develop independent thought, there's two I think are really important to us. The fourth one says [00:12:00] that they have to be, in the society, they have to be the repository of knowledge and expertise. They have to be the place where knowledge Can be kept safe. Where knowledge can find its voice, where knowledge can take its form, and where knowledge can be kept safe. But I also argue it also where knowledge can be distributed. And the second thing, and this is something that I'm very proud of in this country, sorry, the fifth, the last provision is that it is our job to function as the critic [00:12:30] and conscience of society. Now that sounds cool, but it's actually very deep. We're very uncomfortable and very deep because sometimes we have to oppose even our institutions to do that. We have to face what is enshrined and secure because it falls to us to do this. So if we're sort of in the smell of the smoke and ashes, we have this history in New [00:13:00] Zealand. 1986 Now it's interesting that people attack our archives of knowledge, and they burn, so burning, you can smell the smoke through generations of our people going back hundreds of years, the association with destroying by burning. So and whether it's last year, you told on me, this goes on, [00:13:30] this goes on and on, I'm not going to take every issue, but I'm going to, let me show you this. There's some interesting stuff about our contemporary, you know, very cool world. In our libraries, our knowledge is under threat, you know. So that when, in 2015, when Michelle Teer in San Francisco brought in the first idea of bringing drag queens into libraries to read stories full of life and, and, and color and, and, and joy and thought. [00:14:00] We saw what happened here. We see what happens in America. In New Zealand, this is the Avondale Library, and in Christchurch, there were pickets. There were people protesting that drag queens were allowed to be into libraries. Look at this. 2021. So the efforts to ban books in the US are actually escalating at the moment. Okay, so it's fourfold since 2021. So this [00:14:30] is organized targeted groups, removing our literature from the available, so where ordinary people can get it. So, the ALA report. Um, these are challenges to, to libraries, to schools and university materials. So the three most banned books in America all belong to our people. The three most banned books. They're not the ones that tell you how to torture someone. [00:15:00] They're not some fetid novel full of hate about somebody because their, their ethnicity is different to you. They're our books about identity. We're not saying before about how in a hegemonic construction sometimes we, we regulate. As the victims, we police. We actually have this, we have smoke on our hands here. [00:15:30] So we used to have a language. Our people had a language. And if you went back to the 1950s, you could have heard it. Today, it's almost lost. So, let me give you an example. Here it is. I'm going to tell you about something that happened in Ponsonby. This was in the 1950s. Um, Aunt Nell Dears, it's all cackle, all chatter. You know that, um, those dolly aunties in tits while they've been nabbed in the latty? Mm hmm. Seems the manky old fish, Ajax apparently, screeched to [00:16:00] Hilda and the demons descended in a noshy raid. Poor dears. Still in the DOS they were. Everyone knows it's Tootsie Trade, but they're going to be going in for half stretch at least. What's that about? Well, it's about two guys who are in a relationship. Two elderly men. Who their neighbor reported on them to the police and in a dawn raid their house was broken into and they were arrested [00:16:30] and they are going to be sent to prison. That was our language. So that didn't get stopped by the Destiny Church. It got stopped by us. Because the culture that, that's a very vicious language, it's a very, it's a language born out of pain and, and injury, and it's angry. And so, if you run down, whereas a few words still [00:17:00] exist to Scarpa, we still know is to run away. Some of us still know the word family, meaning us. This is actually family, but it comes from Thieves Cant, which is where thieves, uh, you talk about. If you're in a, a, a, a group and you go, they're family, it means they're another thief. Don't pinch stuff from them. So, um, but here's this rich strain of our culture that we quietened down because we have got quietened down's, not the right, not a fair word [00:17:30] for it. We, we at our worst regulate our own society in a pursuit of a sanitized idea of diversity that is increasingly small and we have to. As scholars do the opposite. Diversity is a beautiful but hugely challenging problem. It's a problem. It's not a glitter. It's something that bears huge responsibility. If we are the critics and conscience of society, we have to look after the [00:18:00] spectrum of who we are, including those in our world who disagree with us. Because otherwise, we take part in the process of rendering invisible. So, I tried something that we thought might be helpful. Now, 2006, our university decided to digitise Uh, all the theses. Because they were sitting, you know, people did a thesis and it [00:18:30] sat on a back shelf somewhere and they hoped nobody was ever going to read it again and nobody did. You know, um, and uh, and I remember the big fight because the university decided to become open access and it was a lot of academics, you know, were going, well, well, you know, it'll be a drop of academic integrity, you know. And the push on the other side was going, but if taxpayers pay for us to be here and our people struggle to be here, should our knowledge not be available? You [00:19:00] know, my mum and dad, sharing contractors, they're never going to get into a university library, but they, well they don't actually have a computer, but if they did, they should be able to get there. If we're in Ngongotaha and we're 14 years old and doing a project, we should be able to get that. If I'm in a retirement home and I want to know about men who come out after the age of 50, I should be able to get that. That's what being a critic and conscience of society is. So we went to the university and we said, [00:19:30] we would like to have a portal designed that just focuses on the queer research out of our university. First sweep through over a hundred theses we found by our people. I felt very proud. Here, so we worked with Dr. Robert Porfiry to find a name for this. Cause, let me do it this way. I don't [00:20:00] think pride is exotic, I think pride has dignity. An academic pride has dignity, but it's absolutely certain of who it is. So, ear is an amazing thing because it's a pronoun, it's genderless. But what it means is to flow, to move out. And so, we worked with um, we worked with the library and then we worked with Catalyst, who is a designer, to put this portal together. The idea was it had to be really easy for [00:20:30] anyone to use. So, all you do is you type in, uh, uh, whatever you're looking for, um, Adolescents, um, whatever you like. Press, press search and it will bring up any thesis, but now any published article done by a member of staff. By our people, for our people. It just does this. It tries to do this. But, it has, the journey to [00:21:00] it was really interesting because it brought up some stuff. So, one of the things on the site also is that it shows some of the staff. So the, the staff profiles. And so if you click on these people, it tells 'em to tell you what they do. It tells you what the connection is to our communities. You know, these people have supervised these, or these people have written these articles or these people have, uh, work on the pride, um, you know, on, on a trust board, on a, so there's a, a link. It's not just going well, I think I'd like to virtue signal here, so I'll see if [00:21:30] I can get on that site. You have to do something. So people sitting in this room, you can find their theses in this site. So, if you put in something like, hello, if you, if you put in um, law reform, it will bring up every thesis that has got some discussion of law reform in it. It will actually bring up not only that but also supervisors who've supervised stuff like that, [00:22:00] other stuff that will be interesting. So, when you click on it, you can download, it'll give you the abstract, and you can download, but then you'll see similar items that locate similar items in the site. It's not trying to be a big Skype, it's just saying, we all do the necessary things to make the world better in our world. Whether it's Pride NZ gathering oral histories. Whether it's our archive gathering ephemera that [00:22:30] people would have thrown away. That actually tells more than what it appears to be. Whether it's our Charlotte Museum, whether it's, whatever it is, we, we gather things together to build the robustness of an identity. So, because our job is to be a critic and conscience of society, and because it is our job to be a repository of knowledge, we went, let's, make that accessible just like today has happened because people went, this is [00:23:00] our job to be scholars in the world like this. It's our job to do this. And every person who's come here with the backpack full of stuff that no one else can see has made a decision to make a commitment to that. And that's why I feel so proud to be able to stand inside a family like this. But one of the issues it brought up was the concept of refugees, and it's something that a lot of non queer people don't [00:23:30] really realise, especially in the realm of academia. Many people come to this country to study because it's not safe for them to study in their own country. We actually have a long history of our people of being exiles. We exiled from our homelands, we exiled from our small communities, we exiled... Back in the day, lots of us went and worked and lived overseas. But in academia, that's a really big thing. So people come here because it's safer. But [00:24:00] actually, it's not entirely safe. Because once you put research online, and it has a search word in it, and I'll give you a concrete example... One of the candidates I worked with some years ago had done a thesis, he had an unusual name. He was coming through immigration in Russia. They thought his name was odd, they looked it up, and the first word that came underneath it was pedophile, because he'd studied, but Erich von Gloden, the photographer, and homosexuality. Detained for two days. [00:24:30] Let's put that in context. There are 65 countries in the world at the moment. where we remain criminalised. Fourteen of them, if we present in public, in other than the gender that we were born with, or other than what it is, the pressure for us to adopt a binary, we get arrested. Twelve countries kill us. [00:25:00] For most of us, when someone says international conference, they're countries we can't go to. It's not safe for us to go to anymore because they can just click on our name and research and we're suddenly visible. We can't hide in this world anymore. And so we have to look after those who have to hide. Like, many of our universities now, our people are pushed really hard for, to allow people to be protected if they're wanting to do [00:25:30] a piece of research, so that that's not, there are caveats put on it, so that this piece of stuff is not actually available online. You can't get it. Because those people have to return to families. So it's a complex issue, so when, and universities often go, oh well, you go to conferences, you go to conferences, and you go, yeah, in about two thirds of the world I can. But my world is smaller than yours, in terms of safety. And when you go, let's team up with people in this country, and this country, and this country, [00:26:00] I can't go to China. I can't go to Russia. It's not safe. And China and Russia are interesting examples. Of the countries that don't necessarily legislate in an obvious way, but they have policies of no, no approval, no promotion. So my film, you saw the trailer, was banned in both of those countries. If I go up and speak on them, I can't show anything in the film that would give some sense of promotion [00:26:30] or approval. And you go, it's not, it's neither, it's just a life. But that's the way it's framed. So many of you sitting in this room, We face a smaller world that's not as safe. Because of things like this, this is tough. So right now in Russia, Safari is the game. People go on to online dating sites, set up dates, beat the people up, [00:27:00] disfigure them. beat out of them the names of their families and their employers and put it all online. That's the world today. This is not some obscure thing. This is a game. Please don't stop it. And so we had to think about the people who would put into something like here both their courage, support their courage and also [00:27:30] to provide safety. Sure. These people seeking refuge, the exiles and the international conferences are the two key ideas here. But, then we jump to another side of it, which is a lovely side. You know, I was talking before about our lost language, which is called Pali or Pallari, or there's a range of names for it. Um, the word family referred to us, and that's why there was a thing called the family bar in Auckland. It wasn't because you were going to take your nieces and nephews and, [00:28:00] and, and, it wasn't. It was because it was referring to an older word. And inside our language, we had names like an auntie, a sister, a mother, the uncles, the houses. So the houses, if you have a look at Fafsweg, but you go back to Jenny Livingston's, um, Paris is Burning. You see, so we made homes. We made homes for our people. When we had to go into exile. And, so there's this rich, rich language that doesn't mean, those words don't mean the same in a heteronormative [00:28:30] society as what they mean in our world. But this idea of family is how we have hung together through storms. You know, and when, even if I go back to like the early 80s, very early 80s, some of our conferences had just moved out of Gay Liberation Conferences. They were three days long. I'm glad this one's one day, I'll tell you why. The first day, everyone was lovely to each other. Second day, everyone tore each other apart. And the third day, we were all running around with band aids trying to fix up the relationships. [00:29:00] You know, so, we, there wasn't a golden age for our family. We have a problem that we fight with each other and don't show respect for the things that are different that are difficult for us. Kind of a way to understand it, when you've been hurt, when you've been pushed to the side, of course you fight for things, but we also have to co exist. So, you know, [00:29:30] this is something I printed as a t shirt and gave to somebody who wasn't a friend. Who was saying everything's alright and I said I want you to come down to Tikawiti with me and we'll go, we'll do some shopping on the main street. The shirt was never worn. Another thing when we were setting this up that happened because of Gareth. We're trying to work out, [00:30:00] if we do things like what's happening today, and we do things like EAR, and we do things like Pride NZ, we do these things, how do we form a stronger network at our country? And I thought, oh, maybe you have, sorry, boring old academic, um, MOUs. And Gareth said something that was, that hit me really hard, because I recognised it as the truth straight away. [00:30:30] Many of our repositories of knowledge grew up on the street because they weren't safe to grow up in institutions. So if you have a look at many of the things we have, that's where they've come from. They haven't been inside churches, museums, libraries, universities. They've been inside, paid for by our salaries, in manky flats, putting things together out of necessity. And so if we're going to join some kind of [00:31:00] support, perhaps rather than buying into one big global thing, we have an affiliation. We work with and respect the mana of each of those things, and we look after each other. We allow this country to have its diversity of needs and histories. The whakapapa of all these things is not taken away as it's subsumed into one, but becomes a network. of goodwill, and scholarship, and care. But that we [00:31:30] think about how we can step further forward into looking out for each other. Things like, if there's some funding comes in, if there's a possibility of doing a joint project where someone gets some money to digitise some stuff, if there's some, a speaker's coming to the country for one thing, we let other people know. We look, if there's a collection, something's just been found in a museum somewhere, we get the word out across. across our people, so that we have a richer, more networked substrate from which to [00:32:00] work. And one of the things, I can understand this, is that, I think it's a quality of our family, is that because of injury, we have quite high levels of mistrust. We're a bit cautious about trusting things. So, you know, if you ever look back in the day, if you were arrested, Um, They were basically given, this is if you [00:32:30] were trans, if you were a gay man, if you were a lesbian woman and you fell foul of the, you were given two choices. You were either arrested and sent to prison or you could go and get treatment medically. The treatment looked like this. So, I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago who's still got, this is her. He's still got the burn marks under his genitals from where the wires were put [00:33:00] there from the electric shocks when he was put into hospital in the early 60s. We have never received a public apology from the medical fraternity for using us as experimental animals. We have never received an apology. Medicine has a long history of abuse. And so, many of our older people. And people who live through that are very cautious about [00:33:30] organizations that suddenly open their arms, whether that's a church or whether it's a medical fraternity, goes, come on in. We welcome you. We welcome you. Here's a rainbow flag on our door. We go, yeah, nah. So so many of our people have suffered spiritual abuse. Often in quite profound ways and are on quests to find [00:34:00] meaning, the correlation between the spiritual dimension of themselves and the physical dimension and the mental, all the dimensions of the self. We don't even use this word, but it's the only way I can think to describe it. We know, we know whether it's documented like this. This is the men of the pink triangle in the concentration camps. There's very few images of this [00:34:30] survive. We've taken out of universities. Like, when they, when they, Humboldt University, when those fires went, a lot of people don't realise that over a third of the doctorates were revoked. Our people fled into exile. Those who could. Others ended up here. And this not trusting, let me give you, you know, I was watching the COVID thing just recently and, um, you know, and I kept thinking, [00:35:00] shit, this is country, this is country that I love very deeply, not learn. Suddenly that we had vulnerable communities in our nation who were saying, let us manage this. Let us talk with our people. And we were going, we weren't. An organization was going, well, we'll work out how to do it. We'll work out how to do it. And you go, it's not reaching our people. Well, go back to the 1980s when AIDS was [00:35:30] ravaging our people. We had a similar problem. The health department managed our budget and they spent their money on this campaign. Would you jump out of a, out of a airplane without a parachute? And our people went, what the fuck? Sorry, but we did. And so we went to them and said, give us the money, because we know how to talk to our people. Let us, let us be, this is the AIDS Foundation. We said, if [00:36:00] you're going to work with us, don't, don't tell us, consult with us and then go and do it. Give us the resources to do this ourselves, because we can do it. Look, in desperation, I was carrying jumbo pens around and writing no come up the bum in public toilets, you know, because people were dying. Because our people were dying and it was tearing families apart and we were getting a fucking ad on jumping out of an aeroplane. And then on the opposite side of [00:36:30] it, in the, in Australia, so we were managing the escalating queer bashing at this stage. In Australia, they decided to do it, so this, this did play here, but in documentaries. They decided to, how they were going to deal with it was just terrify the living daylights out of everyone. What the hell? In Oxford Street we had t shirts going, don't do tin pin bowling. And, [00:37:00] we were dying. Because we were not changing our behaviour. Because the campaign... It's not given to us to talk to our people and slowly, slowly, too late for many of our lives, too late for my partner, too, too late for many people's friends, colleagues, sons, daughters, too late.[00:37:30] These are not bad policy decisions. This is the agency of death. That occurs when you don't let people who know how to communicate with themselves do it. So, you know, so what did we do? We went quilting, and don't, don't knock it, because it was actually very powerful. Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, I know this hurts.[00:38:00] I know this hurts. Our partners... And our friends died, and we sewed quilts that are the size of a burial plot. With their name, so they could not be invisible. In America, it was the only way they managed to make the government finally acknowledge that there was an age pandemic. The only way they could do it. We laid out, we laid out our people. And people walked round and round and round and went, [00:38:30] this is here. The quilt I made for my mate Ian. Um, he died near the beginning. It's hard because it's at, it's in Te Papa now. But there was a time when schools wouldn't let us bring them in. To talk. You know. And, um, and then we had to, because we were having to do it, we had no protection, so our hearts had to be right out there, in the open, [00:39:00] because it was the only way that we could help people see what was really happening. These were the ordinary, beautiful people of our nation. It was the only way. And I think that's why many of our people have empathy for other people in our nation. Who have to struggle so hard. To get a voice that in a fair world would be a fair representation and an important thing. [00:39:30] So, you know, universities have also got smoke on their hands with this. So when Wren, you know, in 2010, a very interesting article looking at the history of how universities have excluded us. How they've done it is they've just advised us away from doing the research. Going, yeah, yeah, you really want a thesis? I'm not so sure. So this is changing. This is changing because of you. It's changing because of us. Because we go in and we don't allow that to [00:40:00] happen. But it did for years. You couldn't get funding for the stuff. I saw some heads nodding, going, yeah, it's still really hard to get funding for the stuff. So when, and when we were trying to have our conferences in Auckland. I remember the first two, the only two places we could get a conference though was the Auckland Medical School gave us a little, access to a little room, and Carrington Polytech. The thing with Carrington Polytech was it was five buildings over where they'd done the electric shock treatments on our people. [00:40:30] So The geography, the historical geography of our country is very distinctive. That's why I love it when I hear things like the archives, uh, or taking people on walks through the city, going, there is another geography here. There is a cultural geography that has been erased, either purposely or through neglect. And the last one I want to touch on is exoticization. Um, I always thought this was very [00:41:00] interesting. It's distinctive about it. I'm not going to read it out. It's nothing worse than someone reading slower than what you read. Have a read of it. So, this is quite a distinctive thing for us. We often grew up in families where we were ontologically different from our parents. And sometimes we had amazing families that, that went, that folded in around us and gave us extraordinary [00:41:30] But we also have friends who didn't. And some of us didn't have those things. So it's a very, so from the time that we become aware of our difference, we can't guarantee that we have parents who understand that difference. Because ontologically they're not the same. And, I was, oh, I just love this graphic. So one of the things which, you know, there are many stories that circulate that we're trying to run into [00:42:00] toilets to steal people or get ourselves arrested so we can go into prisons to, to rape people or that we, uh, we prey on children. Whatever the stories, they cycle over and over and over and over again through every generation. The same faces with a new person behind them saying the same stuff. Relying on there not being robust, rigorous, informed debate coming back. That has space in the world to be heard. And I saw this graphic, this um, this was a few years ago when it was, you [00:42:30] know, anxiety about the, the, the naughty lesbians were taking over parliament. And the gay men were forming enclaves and were, were, you know, trying to corrupt the world and sway people. And I saw this graphic and I just thought it was so beautiful. Yeah, like if it was a banner, we'd just go fuck off and leave us alone, really, really? So, so one of the agencies that we, we are up [00:43:00] against is that we get accommodated as the exoticised other, not as just our ordinary selves, we're all about complexity, we get narrowed down into something exotic, so. We live with myths like, if you're a gay man, you're promiscuous. And you have a thing called a lifestyle. Fuck, I don't know what that is. A lot of religious groups know what it is, but I have no idea what it is. That somehow, we have this thing called, we have a whole lot of wealthy, white, old gay [00:43:30] men who have got a whole lot of money that they don't know what to do with, and they're going to resource everybody. Look at statistics, look at the latest statistics. We're not, that's not true. That's a little myth that even takes root in our own society. People are managing mental health issues, they're managing medications, they're managing, um, um, huge family responsibilities. So many of us become the kind of, like, parent of the next [00:44:00] generation in our families. They may not be our biological, our children by, if you like, direct issue, but they are when the shit hits the fan. They all show up on the back step. And we become... The adored uncle, the adored aunt, the adored safe place somewhere in the wider extended family where there will be an ear and a compassionate heart. We are hugely responsible in families. We often are caring for the elders in our [00:44:30] families. That we are, we are about fluff and glitter. Well, I don't mind about fluff and glitter, that's fine. But there's a Christmas tree underneath it. And that's the bigger part. And that's the bit that claims dignity, and claims something other than the performance of the self, and claims the lived self. The self. You. [00:45:00] That lesbians are aggressive and hate men. That gay men are all urbane, witty, and style junkies. And unfortunately, the media, and that we're all beautiful in this kind of heteronormative idea of what beauty is, and we're all anxious about our beauty, so we spend a lot of time at gyms or on diets or whatever. You know, if I could put a mirror up here, what I see is a room of beautifully ordinary and extraordinary people. [00:45:30] Not an exoticized myth. You know, as part, so little pieces of our culture are taken and hyper exoticised for the consumption of heterosexual communities. The drag queens, I remember in the 1960s in the pubs in England, it was, men and women were, family, you know, husbands and wives, workmates, would all show up and clap, and then preserve the law that sent them to prison, to those people, after the drag show. Beat them up on the streets after the [00:46:00] show. So long as they stayed inside the exotic. They were in a little box and they were allowed to perform but only inside that box. And when we claimed more than that box, the kaka hit the fan. So, um, Okay, I'm going to stop before five minutes. So, uh, so, uh, this is a project we're working on at the moment. This is, uh, just, uh, one of the things that we face in our, among many things is we realize that we have a generation of our [00:46:30] people who are, are dying now, who have lived through stuff. And we don't have all their records. And none of us can do this. I think any one of us. We just make one small contribution to a greater whole. None of us is a divine being who can do the whole thing. But we act on our responsibility to do that. So, um, I'm just going to play a couple of seconds of it, so. Oh, shit.[00:47:00] So what I tried to do was talk about a few ideas that, I would argue that invisibility is the agency that's used to keep us, it's a primary agency of oppression. That we have to look after our refugees, the people who seek sanctuary with us, and be able to extend our worldview so we understand what it is to stand in their shoes, but also to understand that as academics the world, the geography of the world is not the same. It's not the same. That we come from families, and perhaps we have a [00:47:30] deep responsibility to our families, but they are genuinely diverse, and they are made more beautiful for the fact that values within them aren't fixed, they're constantly in a state of movement. That keeps us thinking. That we have a history of damage that causes us to mistrust things, and that we sometimes have to be aware of the fact that it is easy to opt for the exoticized state [00:48:00] and harder to argue for the state that everybody else has. So I'm going to finish with this. You know, during COVID, I, I didn't get enough books out of the library and I was left having to reread books in my library. And while I fell in love with a couple of authors again. I fell out of love with Oscar Wilde. And I know that's such a bad thing for a gay guy to say. And I thought he was a bit of a pretentious git on the second reading through. But he did say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I know you're not allowed to say that, but, [00:48:30] damn. But I will, he did say one thing that I thought, one of the things he said, I thought was really beautiful. And I think he talked about you. You. Us. He said, A dreamer. There's someone who can only find their way by moonlight. But their punishment? They see the dawn before the rest of the world. That's a fine thing. It's a difficult thing, [00:49:00] but a very fine thing. For all that I can't see and that we can't see, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for what you've done, and thank you for what you'll shape into the future. And thank you for listening. Thank you. IRN: 3655 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/joan_bellingham_profile.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Joan Bellingham USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Joan Bellingham INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; Abuse in Care - Royal Commission of Inquiry; Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC); Aotearoa New Zealand; Blenheim; British Hotel; Burwood Hospital; Cashmere; Cashmere High School; Charles Aberhart; Christchurch; Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM); Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); Gresham Hotel; IDEA Services (IHC); Joan Bellingham; Juliet Hulme; Lyttelton; Margaret Moon; Nelson; Pauline Parker; The Princess Margaret Hospital; abuse; attempted suicide; aversion therapy; compensation; concentration camp; gay; health care; health system; homosexual law reform; inpatient; institutionalisation; lesbian; medications; memory loss; mental health; mental illness; nurse; nursing; personality disorder; psychiatric hospital; psychiatric treatment; psychiatrist; punishment; religion; saltwater enema; scar; schizophrenia; sexual assault; sexuality; suicidal; suicide; transgender DATE: 13 October 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Christchurch, Christchurch, Canterbury CONTEXT: Joan describes her experiences as a trainee nurse at Burwood Hospital, and then as a patient at Princess Margaret Hospital (periodically from 1970 to 1982). At Princess Margaret, Joan was subjected to trial medications and hundreds of doses of ECT shock treatment - all in the hope of curing her homosexuality. In 2021 Joan testified before the Abuse in Care - Royal Commission of Inquiry. Heartfelt thanks to Joan for allowing her story to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: October 2023 TEXT: It's important to tell my story because I never, ever want it repeated again. What happened to me. And I think it's also important for people to know just what hard times we went through and in the seventies. Shall we start at the beginning? Well, I [00:00:30] after I left Kashmir High School, I pursued, uh, my nursing career. We're nursing in our family. My sister was a nurse, and my mother was a nurse and grandmother and my niece nieces are all nurses, and, uh, I started my career at Burwood Hospital, and, uh, I was there a year and a half and doing well, uh, and I never [00:01:00] But I never, ever had my sexuality. Uh, and through that, the consequences were I was picked on by the staff and blamed for taking drugs off a trolley. And so I became a little bit I don't know what's the word? Naughty, I suppose. And we were meant to be in by 10 o'clock and I'd come in at 10 30 stuff like that. And in the end, [00:01:30] uh, I got told that I had a problem and I needed to go and see a doctor at the hospital. So one of the tutors drove me to the hospital and I was seen. Saw a psychiatrist there and was admitted that day. Um, and that was the end of my nursing career. Uh, started off. I was told I had a personality disorder. And then I was told I had schizophrenia, [00:02:00] and I was given copious amounts of drugs. Absolutely, you know, unheard of amounts of drugs. I was like a walking zombie and shock treatment once, sometimes twice a day for years and years and years. And it took away my memory of surfing my sister's wedding. It just wiped out my [00:02:30] best friends. And I've got no memory of anything like that. It took it away. But the one thing I didn't take away was my sexuality. I'm still me. I'm still John. I'm still gay. Yeah, there is so much in what you've talked about just just in the last minute or two. And I'm wondering, do you mind if we just go back slowly through some of that material? And so, um, you were saying that you grew up [00:03:00] in Kashmir? So what? What kind of, um, years Are we talking in Christchurch? What is this, like the fifties and sixties I've been I've been in Christchurch all my life. I go to Sydney, you know, for small periods of time. Go to Wellington for small periods of time, but I'd end up coming back to Christchurch. Yes. Can you describe what Christchurch was like in the fifties and sixties? [00:03:30] Um, it was very closed. And, uh, I my a very good friend of mine next door. He it was different. And, uh, all our neighbours were told to keep away from them because something was strange about him. Turned out Brian turned into Beverly and was a very good friend of mine. So, [00:04:00] you know, he had a terribly hard time in the sixties. I mean, it was just shocking. Uh, you know, I had a very supporting mother, but in the fifties and sixties, I don't have much memory. Um, I had a pretty good upbringing myself. I. I was brought up in a religious family, and sexuality wasn't talked about, you know, and And when people talked in the sixties about, um, somebody's [00:04:30] sexuality, I mean, did they even use language that described it? Or it was just something other, something It just wasn't talked about. It just wasn't talked about. Yeah, Yeah, it just Yes. I mean, we had no understanding of anything like that in the sixties and the seventies, you know, because we used to go to, uh, gay dances and all that sort of stuff. It was more open, but, um, [00:05:00] it was still not publicised or any. No one knew anything about dances or gay bars or anything like that, because it wasn't talked about. Still, in the early seventies, we just It was kept very underground. Yes. So can you recall the first time you became aware of your own sexuality? Probably at high school. Yeah. Or when all my friends were, you know, wanting to meet boys and going out with [00:05:30] boys. And I didn't want to. Yeah. And can you describe what that realisation was like for you? Um well, it's strange because it wasn't that scary, because I'm a person I. I don't hide anything. And even though I knew that it was going to be hard for me, I just carried on with life. And that's what got me into trouble. [00:06:00] That's why I ended up in hospital. Because II I didn't hide anything. I certainly wasn't going to get married and have Children because I knew that it was going to cause pain for myself. Whoever I married and you know, So I didn't go down that track. I just I carried on being me, and that's what got me into trouble. Really? I mean, if I'd my majority of my friends and that I hid it or got married or because, you know, they didn't want people to know, [00:06:30] um, which also got themselves into trouble. But I just carried on being me. And it was a heartache for my parents because I used to like, the British hotel in Littleton was well known for gay people. And, um, at that stage, I was very young, and, um, there was a police raid, and and, uh, they asked my age and then rang my parents and told me, Come and get me. I was at the gay bar in Littleton, you [00:07:00] know? So that's when my parents first realisation that I was gay, Although they didn't use the term gay. Yeah. What what age would that have been? Um, I was probably 17. Yeah, I just You know, I wanted. I was probably, uh but I just I wanted to go out. I wanted to have fun. Um, I knew I was different to my friends, and I knew things were going on, and [00:07:30] I just thought, you know, I want to go for it, So, yeah. So can you describe that that that that part? Yeah, it was It was really exciting at that stage. You know, we used to get a lot of my friends, apparently were gay men, and there used to be a lot of boats coming, and they would we could get free beer on the boats. Um, it was good music. Um, [00:08:00] there was, um I can remember. There was a gay guy playing the piano all the time. I can't remember his name now, and it was just really known as a quite a hip bar at the time for gay people, but it But everyone else used to think, Oh, the British or wouldn't go there, you know, it was hm. So how did you become aware of it? Well, I also I can remember one thing I can remember, [00:08:30] and I must have been at the end of going to high school. I can't really remember anything about high school, but I can remember one time leaving at lunch time going to a bar in town, um called the Gresham, which was also a bit of a gay bar. And people say, Oh, you should go to the British. It's, you know, it's It's absolutely buzzing at night, you know, with gay people. So that's when I started finding out about the British, [00:09:00] much to my parents' horror. And yeah, because you were saying that your parents didn't actually use the word say Gay. So how did they? How did they phrase things? Well, I didn't. Well, I didn't. And as soon as I got put into hospital they thought so we can understand that Joan's sick and she's not well, that's why she's yeah, and so they, whatever the doctor said [00:09:30] to them, was right. So they thought, You know Jan's behaviours like this because she's not a well girl. Yeah, and this is at a time when homosexuality was seen as a mental disorder. Absolutely. Yeah, Christchurch is really fascinating in terms of, um, queer history, because there were things like the Parker Hume murder in 1954 [00:10:00] there was the Charles a killing in 1964. But thinking about the Parker Hume murder both, I think the prosecution and the defence, uh, brought up the lesbianism of of the two girls we were you aware of, You know, either the heart or the P human cases. Well, we were led to believe with the Parker Hume cases that they weren't gay, you know, and and didn't [00:10:30] think any more of that. Um, the other the other one that you mentioned? Yes, I. I was aware that of what was going on and just you know how bias, especially in Christchurch people were. And it was quite dangerous. I mean, I. I used to, For example, um, when people knew around here that I was gay, I used to have on my fence people would spray paint, lesbian and and [00:11:00] stuff like that. Yeah, so it was. And that sort of instance you get pretty quiet in Christchurch because people are quite, uh I don't know What's the word to use? Um, yeah. So? So the spray paint was that Was that happening more in the kind of 19 eighties, like around law reform? Yes. Yes, it was. It was, uh there was a lot of hate, too, you know, terrible, lot of hate. [00:11:30] That's shocking. So jumping back to the it was the seventies, wasn't it when you were going or or the kind of late sixties when you were going to the various pubs like the British? Uh, the seven early seventies? Yeah. How did the how did the police treat you? I can't remember. I'm sorry. Yeah, I think you know, they just thought that I was a young girl. It shouldn't shouldn't be out. [00:12:00] Yeah, because, of course, at the time I was 21 was the age. Yeah, and I would have only been 17, so it was. And in those days, it was pretty unheard of. So did you go straight from high school into nursing? Yes, I did. Yes. Yeah. And why Nursing? Um, I just was I [00:12:30] felt sort of secure, and I thought that it was, you know, that was my calling at the time. I mean, there was other jobs I wanted to do, like I. I loved, um, watching my dad fix the car and I would have loved to have a job with mechanics. or something like that. But it was unheard of. And I actually wanted to be a taxi driver. And my mother thought that that was absolutely absurd for a woman to be a taxi driver. And, um also, I tried to be orderly [00:13:00] at P MH where they'd put me in because, I mean, I knew the hospital so well and that, and that was unheard of. There was no woman orderlies in those days, so I mean, it was pretty restricted. What we you know, were able to do once I got it. I still loved my nursing, and apparently, you know, I would have done very well with my nursing. But, you know, I just wasn't carried on. And we should say that P MH stands [00:13:30] for Princess Margaret Hospital. So can you remember any other rainbow people in nursing at that time? One. Yes. Yes, One per, um, one that I can remember. Apparently, um, there was something that happened when I was nursing, um, and that we were all sitting out on the balcony and my very good friend, he was a male [00:14:00] nurse, and now I can't remember whether he was gay or not. I have a feeling. He was. He fell backward off his chair and fell onto the ground floor and was killed. But I've got absolutely no memory. It's my memory's gone as far as that. So I've got a feeling that he was gay, too. Yeah, and And was it accidental? His death? Yes. Absolutely. He just fell backwards, apparently. Yeah. So can you describe how [00:14:30] how I guess how overt you were in terms of your sexuality? Um, as you were going through the the nursing training. I mean, was it was it a big thing for you? It was important. It was important that I felt that, you know, I didn't want people to think I was straight. Um, and I had to conform to doing things that that all my other friends did. So I stood my grounds and, you [00:15:00] know, it just it wasn't accepted. It was definitely not accepted. That profession. How how does it manifest itself when you when you when you're not conforming when you're not wanting to be appear to be straight? I guess it it looks like I to to To them, it would have looked like I was just, um a nonconformist and that that I didn't want to obey any rules, you know, because sure, I. I guess [00:15:30] that I probably when I think about it now, I was doing things because they told me not to do them because they wouldn't accept who I was. So, you know, it appeared that I was really being a nonconformist. And and that wasn't in those days. I mean, nursing was like being in the Army, you know, you had to be in by a certain time. Um, you know, you had certain clothes you had to wear, even in mufti, you know, [00:16:00] um oh, it was all you know, rules, rules, rules, rules, rules. And, uh, yeah, it got me into trouble. So, uh, that was the end. Yeah, for me. For my nursing. Yeah, my S, my sister, because she was very successful in her nursing and, uh, you know, in the end, she, uh she was right up there, and she owned nursing homes and all sorts of things. [00:16:30] Yeah, So I think my parents probably thought that, you know, my sister had done so well and Joan because of her illness, you know, I didn't get anywhere. Yeah, Do you think you were targeted because of your lesbianism? 100%. Yeah. And was it from both the kind of the staff and the fellow students [00:17:00] or not from the students? As far as I can remember, I know it was pretty well liked. You know, I got on well with everyone that it was just the staff. Yeah. So what would they do? Well, from what I can remember, and and a lot of it's been cut out, But as I said, I there's no way I would have still on drugs off the drug trolley. I would. That's just not me. And I was blamed for that, and and [00:17:30] it affected me quite a bit. I was quite upset. Um, I exam papers. There was one tutor and she put on the bottom of If you think you're going to be a nurse, that's the laugh. In the end, I burnt those papers. I wish I'd held on to them now, but yeah, I was comments like that, apparently, And And I was pretty S at the time. Fairly sensitive person, too. So it was sort of a build up. I was getting, uh, picked on I suppose. And, [00:18:00] uh, you know, And then it was being driven to the hospital being told that I needed to see a doctor. So yeah, 1. 5 years I was nursing. It was a three year course at the time. I did 1. 5 years. Can you recall what happened on that particular day when they said, actually, you need to go to the hospital now? I can just vaguely thinking This is ridiculous. This is really ridiculous. [00:18:30] Um, you know, I can't wait to get get back and with my mates. And we have a few drinks, blah, blah, blah. Never for a minute thinking I'll be kept in hospital that night. Yeah, and that was complete at the end of me going back to Burwood Hospital. I can't even remember what happened about my clothes. All my belongings, the nurses' home. I can't remember. I never saw my friends again. I didn't [00:19:00] know that my memory would be taken away from me, but I certainly didn't think that was the last time I'd see my friends would be the end of my nursing career. Yeah. What what age were you at this point? about 18. 5, I think. Yeah. Yeah, to me that it is just so unimaginable to be to be taken out of out of where you are and just transported [00:19:30] into another environment. I know, I know. I actually, um there was this Margaret Moon who was a, uh, psychologist there at the P MH. And she was an amazing woman, and she's just recently passed away, and she One of the reasons she left was she couldn't stand to see what was happening to me. Um, and we kept in touch. [00:20:00] What? I've just lost my train of thought. Um oh, she Oh, and she said you went into hospital. A bright young girls standing up straight looking, you know, having great complexion. And she said, and she said, six months later, I saw you and you were like a pale walking zombie who didn't recognise anybody. She said you went into hospital a well person, and you were getting sicker and sicker and sicker. Yeah, and she couldn't do anything [00:20:30] about it. It was When you hear that, I mean, how do I mean? How does that make you feel? Well, it it's strange. I was just telling my partner. Margaret didn't have for a long time. It hadn't really affected me. But as I'm getting older, it it's starting to make me just realise this this horrific of it all. You know, it's actually now it's it's hitting [00:21:00] me harder now in my seventies than it did in my fifties and forties, Probably because I had, uh, you know, I mean, I refused to let it ruin my life what had happened to me, and, um, I kept. But now that I've got time to sit and you know I'm not so busy in that and reflect on it, yeah, it hits me harder now and and and that's it's this royal Commission. It's really important [00:21:30] to me that I get my word out there, but I also, you know, I very strongly say this now. I think I should be compensated for what happened to me, and I'm so I'm sorry if that sounds callous, but I'm at the stage in my life. I really and truly think there's some should be some sort of compensation for what's happened to me, and I was too too ashamed to say that before because I don't know why. I was just ashamed [00:22:00] to say it. But now I'm at the point in my life, and I realise just how horrific it all was. Yes, there should be some compensation. Yeah, you've mentioned a couple of times in terms of the, um the loss of memory. Have you found over the years that that memories have come back or partial memories have come back? Well, it's quite strange because we went with our neighbours to an Italian restaurant the other night. [00:22:30] It's a well known restaurant, and we sat down and this woman came. The owner of the place came rushing over to me and her hands her arms out. Joan and I hadn't had a clue who she was. And apparently we were very, very good friends at Cashmere High. And, uh, she told me a few things that we did and and it brought back a few memories. Yeah. So? So sometimes if I'm reminded [00:23:00] of something I can remember. I've had a lot of instances. I had a friend, Beverly, who was a transsexual, and she bought a guy gay guy that I used to flirt with, and I couldn't think who he was. I had no idea. And as soon as he came to the door and I saw his face, there was something there I could remember. Yeah, And he he told us of all the things that we did together, [00:23:30] and it was sounded fabulous, you know? Really, really nice person. He's in Sydney now. Yeah. So those first moments, um, at Princess Margaret, Can you? I mean, can you recall that or just the feeling of I mean, what that felt like? Well, at first, you know, I lost all confidence in myself [00:24:00] and I thought, Oh, my God, I must be really sick. And I saw these people around me like there was a woman who was She'd been in the concentration camp, and she was a Jew. She kept hitting her head on the wall. And And there was another woman who threw the TV S. And I thought, What am I doing here? You know these people, these poor people are very sick. But then I started to [00:24:30] get sicker myself because of all the medication and the shock treatment. And the only place I felt secure in the end was the hospital. You know, I felt totally. And they made me feel totally insecure when I wasn't in the hospital. So yeah, it went from feeling frightened to feeling like I. I was totally What's the word? Um Oh, there's a word for it when you need to be in hospital. [00:25:00] Uh, when you're institutionalised. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, apparently at one stage, I can remember disliking myself so much that I was begging for the shock treatment and they'd give it to me, you know? And then another time, I can remember they called my parents in and they said that we've got some news that Joan is a schizophrenic and and they didn't [00:25:30] know what that meant. And they said, It's like her brain's crumbling and she won't get better. And you know that she's going to slowly deteriorate. And then I can remember all my family members having a prayer meeting and and, you know, gathering around and holding each other and praying for me and all this thinking that, you know, I was going to end up being a vegetable or whatever and there were no, you know, I mean, they were trying all these trial drugs [00:26:00] out on me I mean, I've got a list of the drugs I was on, and, uh, you wouldn't believe it. I mean, it was just shocking, absolutely shocking. So that initial time when you were brought to the hospital, I mean, what did the doctor say? Can you recall like, I mean, how did they, uh, were you there for assessment or what? What was the kind of yes I can remember the doctor that assessed [00:26:30] me and, uh, all I seemed to focus on was how often I had sex. How did I do it? Yeah, what was it like? And I kept getting all the time questions about, you know, sex as sex was the bugbear of it all. And it frightened me in when I was having shock treatment. This doctor was quite creepy, and I felt frightened when I knew that. You know, [00:27:00] after I go out to it that I didn't know what was happening to me, and I was, uh I think they were. Some of them were quite perverse in their just in the questioning and that and, yeah, were they seeing, um, lesbianism as a as a kind of symptom for a kind of a mental disorder? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And how did you see it? [00:27:30] Well, as I said, III, I didn't think I was sick, but after being in there, you know, possibly six months. I thought I was very sick. I thought I was. I hated myself. I. I tried to take my life just about every day. I hated myself so much, and I never succeeded. So I sort of gathered that I didn't really want to die. But I had absolutely hated dislike, [00:28:00] and I couldn't look in the mirror myself. I I just It took me a long time to learn to like myself again. Yeah. Yeah. As this was going on. How did your family react? Well, it's really strange because, you know, I had the most. I had an absolutely wonderful family. My father was an absolutely amazing man, [00:28:30] but they were you know, they saw me getting sicker and the doctors kept telling them I had this severe illness and they thought that I was in the right place. Except they did question like one time they were going to Fiji and I was meant to be going with them, but I they wouldn't let me out of hospital because I had double pneumonia. I was so filled up with drugs I couldn't walk. And I've been lying on the bed for so long that [00:29:00] I got double pneumonia and and Mom said, But this, you know, she started to question what? Why is all these things happening to this healthy young girl? But of course, the doctors still talk them into thinking, you know? Well, this is this is how it is. So, Jane so yeah, from your perspective of what the doctors and nurses were thinking, I mean, I'm trying to understand whether I mean, did they think they were [00:29:30] helping you, or was this more? Do you feel it was more a sinister thing that they were actually trying to cure you of your homosexuality? I mean, what what do you think was going through their head? I think that they thought they were trying to help me, But also, I think there was an underlying sinister, you know, something was wrong somewhere because I can remember. [00:30:00] I was well enough. Mom and Dad were going to Nelson and they said I could come and I was on such heavy drugs. I was in the car and I was starting to hallucinate. So I stopped off at Blenheim to see this doctor or A and E or something. And they took a blood test and they nearly went through the roof. They said, What the hell? What? You know what? Change this blood test. Everything's so high, you know? [00:30:30] And they said Joan needs to go to There was a hospital in Nelson, a psychiatric hospital in there and get her blood levels. You know, all the drugs dropped. And so I was put in this hospital, and then I was surrounded with people. They were all mostly down syndrome people. And I was put in this hospital and they didn't want to send me back to Christchurch because they thought [00:31:00] that all the shock treatment that was going so they were trying to get me off or lower all my drug level. But because I was so dependent on everything, they in the end, they kept giving me all the drugs again. And in the end, they gave me some shot treatment at this hospital. Nelson, and all I can remember is being sent back by ambulance, uh, to Princess Margaret Hospital. So [00:31:30] I went from one hospital to another, so it looked like it was gonna be they were going to, you know, help me get off all these drugs That Princess Margaret putting me on. But in the end, they just sent me back to Princess Margaret, so I don't have much memory of it, but I have a I was thinking, you know, they were sort of looking at me as I was definitely IHC when I was out of hospital, they put me in this. What was it? It was like a big factory. [00:32:00] And they were all mainly down syndrome people. And And we had to I think it was put envelopes, TV guides into envelopes or something like that. And I was thinking, Why? Why am I You know what's what's happening to me all of a sudden? I was being from a teenage person into a, you know, really handicapped person. And I was, and I just I just keep trying to kill myself. [00:32:30] I couldn't stand it. I just thought, You know what? What? What the hell am I doing on this earth? This planet? You know I'm no good to anybody. I can't do it, and they're just making me feel terrible. So it was shocking. And then I don't know if I was skipping to this, but I met my partner who was Asian, and I decided, Hey, this is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. So I got myself [00:33:00] away from the hospital and they never, ever followed me up. I went cold turkey for a year and a half. I'd had hot sweats every night nightmares shaking, shivering. I did it on my own for a year and a half, went off all the drugs, including sleeping pills and all that. And, uh, that's how I got. That's how I got myself away from the hospital. Yeah, so in, [00:33:30] in in the hospital, in, in in the seventies. Uh, do you think it was the drugs and the shock treatment? It was a bit of a self perpetuating cycle, so that actually, um, you know, you were attempting suicide and that just because of the results of all the effects of those different medications, absolutely and I, I just I felt that I wasn't a good person, and I certainly weren't a person that my parents could be proud of, even though my father [00:34:00] You know, he always said he was proud of me, but I just felt that, you know, I wasn't someone they could be look up to. Yeah. Can you describe what, uh, an average day was like, at, uh, when you when you were at Princess Margaret? Sure. Um, as an impatient, um, well, the room had six beds. Um, [00:34:30] and in the mornings that come around with a drug trolley, it would all be administered drugs. Um, then that they'd come out with a trolley with breakfast. There was no we didn't have any groups where there was talking or anything like that. You were just treated like, uh, you know, you lay in your bed and, [00:35:00] um, we had walks around the hospital. We'd all walk in groups around the hospital. Um, if you, you know, like for me, sometimes I'd try and run away to get away from hospital and that I'd come back and they'd give me a what's called a salt warm water enema, you know, for running away. And it was very, very painful. And I did that a few times. I got that a few [00:35:30] times. It was sort of a punishment thing and one time I tried to jump into the river, I just I'd had enough and someone got me out. I can't remember. And I got to remember having this. It wasn't a warm saltwater. It was almost a hot saltwater EMA. That was horrific. That was shocking. And then I was put. I started to get after that, go downhill, and I got put into a single room and they took away [00:36:00] the bell. Uh, I just It was just a room with nothing in it. And if I wanted to go to the toilet, I had to yell out, and I didn't have the strength to yell out because I was so weak from all the drugs I was on. And, uh so consequently, I can remember one time trying to get out into the corridor saying, and I didn't make it, and I got severely punished for that, really, And I got shock treatment. [00:36:30] I think I got it twice that day and I can remember that's when they burnt to my scalp. And then the second when I had it in the afternoon, they put the electrodes onto the burns again, so I got permanent scarring Yeah. So, um And then it would come around, you know, on a trolley again. It would be a drug trolley. Seemed to be coming around all the time. [00:37:00] And then I can vaguely remember there was drug addicts coming in and they were getting their methadone and the cups, and sometimes they'd been given shock treatment. And this is jumping the gun a bit. But I was told I was a schizophrenic, an alcoholic and a drug addict. Well, I just was a social drinker. I weren't a schizophrenic, and I never, ever took IV drugs. [00:37:30] And anyway, consequently, many years later, I got hepatitis C, and my theory is that when they put the electrodes on my head, they never changed the electrodes. They wiped them with a cloth put from one person to the next. And they were having drug addicts coming in and having shock treatment. And I believed because of my seeping wounds, that's how I got my hep C. Well, straight [00:38:00] away. It was totally, uh, you know, absolutely not. I wouldn't that wouldn't. But I worked at the Hepatitis Resource centre and they said It's absolute. It's highly probable. But, uh, I helped my friend. A few of my friends who got hepatitis, C and they didn't get it through drugs. And they got an apology from the prime minister and $70,000 when it came to me, I put in my claim it was Po [00:38:30] Po. I didn't get it. So, you know, once again it was You know, I've you just feel like I've been pushed aside a lot. Yeah, just getting back to that. Um, enema. What? What was the purpose medically for that? Well, it was an unpleasant thing. [00:39:00] Uh, and sure we were. We were all all of us were constipated because of, you know, the copious amounts of drugs we were on. But it seemed to be also used as a punishment whenever anything they weren't happy about. All of a sudden, you'd be told you're having a salt and water enema. No. And that's one thing that really sticks in my brain there at the hospital. Do you think also that same medication [00:39:30] was used as a punishment as well? Or why did they use such copious amounts of medication? I believe that I believe they definitely used me as a case for trial drugs. because they were never quite sure of my diagnosis. And I. I really can't remember much about the other people. But I know that most people weren't on the amount of drugs that I was on. And I believe [00:40:00] that it was I was definitely used as a guinea pig. Yeah. So initially, was it the, um, you were put on medication and then did Did did that Then move into, um, electro comms therapy? No, I think the electroconvulsive therapy was more or less given. I think I had that probably the day after I was admitted. Yeah, it was being used so much, uh, [00:40:30] in those days, You know, in fact, that psychologist I told you about she opened up to this doctor about how her father had committed suicide and she'd never really got over it. And, uh, she was pregnant at the time, and he said, Oh, I know the answer for you. And he gave her some short treatment and she said that son, she had two other sons and one ended up being a doctor. And one ended up being [00:41:00] a I can't remember lawyer or something. And the son, when she was pregnant, when she gave birth to him, he ended up. He was, uh he didn't have jobs and he was unemployed, you know. Things went wrong and yeah, and she opened up. She actually told her story. Um, she wrote it down for me and asked, you know, it's very private and walked me to tears. But it was what she saw of me, [00:41:30] what had happened to her and why she left the hospital. And I felt quite privileged that, you know, she wrote this out for me. She was an amazing She was well known. Margaret Moon. Yeah, she was a very so I was. You know, in some ways I feel quite privileged because oh, maybe through what's happened to me, you know, it has helped [00:42:00] others. Yes, you know, life as it is, it's already I believe that it's already set out for you. You know, we don't have any choice in that. We have choice in what we can do with it, and and, uh, you've either got to go with the flow, but for a lot. That's easy for me to say now, because I'm in a good relationship and, you know, got my own home and car and that maybe I'd feel different [00:42:30] if if the situations were different. Yeah. Can you recall at first AC T treatment and how that all happened? I, I can recall. I can. I can't remember the first, You know, whether it was the first one. But I can remember that Absolutely. That that takes a lot to frighten me. But it's horrific. I've got shocking [00:43:00] veins and they I believe they put like formaldehyde or something into you to it's like a muscle. It does something to you. And I can remember the electrodes going on and I can remember the initial shot of pain and then just being unconscious, waking up with the most violent headaches and nausea. And every time you knew it was going to happen [00:43:30] like this, I was I I every time I thought, you know, I won't wake up. I'm gonna die, you know? And the pain of what's from my old hide or what it was going through My inscribe pain and fear. It's just, you know, I actually haven't talked about it much, but I do remember it's just indescribable. It was just shocking, just unbelievable. And once someone [00:44:00] said to me, I'll never forget this young boy. He was in there, too. And he said, They're gonna give me shock treatment. What's it like? And I said to him, Don't let him It's horrible. And it's taking away my memory and feel so sick. And that boy went home and set himself on fire. Yeah. So things like that that happened, you know, all sort of things like that. And, yeah, I have to deal with [00:44:30] too. You know, if I had maybe told him that it'll be OK, things might have been different for him, right? From divers, first treatments, you could feel that your memory was gone. Yeah, and I kept saying to the doctor, I'm so frightened. I said, My memory has been drained. He said, it'll come back, girl. It'll be all right, girl. [00:45:00] And he used to say this all the time, and it was just slowly getting worse and worse. Yeah. How how was the, um, the nurses or the other staff? Um I mean, were you having to be held down or restrained, Or how did that work with shock treatment? Um, there'd be a nurse there. Sometimes I'd be holding your hand. [00:45:30] They put a what do you call it? An airway in your mouth. Prior to me going into hospital, I was going out one night and I was ringing up my parents to come and get me the telephone box. And, um, this guy came along and he must have thought I was in the phone box too long. He went in the phone box and punched me in the mouth and knocked my teeth out my two front teeth there. [00:46:00] And instead of mom and Dad going to to the police or anything, they kept it quiet because I was so young and I shouldn't have been out, you know, 17 years of age. So for me, it was quite that I never got over the trauma of losing my two front teeth. And every time I had shock treatment, they take out these two front the plate, and that in itself, for me was quite a you know, it was horrible. And then they put in this airway. Um, [00:46:30] but I can't remember. I think Yes, I think they did restrain. Because, of course, when you you know, you had the shock treatment, your back arches up like you're having a seizure. And because of that, uh, two years down the track, I got meningitis. And I think that I had a small, uh, hairline fracture in my spine. Caused her the shock treatment. And I went tramping, [00:47:00] drank the water, and I had the meningococcal bug in it and caused through the fracture in my spine. Caused through the ECT. So, you know, that was another side effect. That what was the I mean, what was the point of CT? What? What? What did they hope to achieve? They never told me, and I don't think they ever knew. But I always I thought maybe [00:47:30] if they completely erased my memory that it might erase my memory of me being gay. I know how absurd that sounds, but I couldn't see any other reason I couldn't. I saw other people around me with having shock treatment, and there were some people that were really sick in there. And possibly it did do them good. But I I joined the medical library and I read books and books and books on AC T, and there was a higher percentage [00:48:00] of success rate placebo people being told they had AC T, and there was more damage being done to people having AC, T and round about the mid seventies. They started moving where they put the electrodes because they realised, even though they'd never admitted that it was causing damage where they put the ECT on my head and I think they changed it. So it was on the frontal lobe or which to me, is still [00:48:30] pretty horrendous. But I'd never admit that it actually caused memory loss. But sure enough, I mean in the books and that there's no doubt about it. Will you have copious amounts of ECC? It will cause memory loss. All right? Yeah. Do they have any age limit in terms of, um, could they do it to, like, really young kids? Or that's another horrific story. There was a young married boy, and I believe he was 12 or 13 [00:49:00] and he was an outpatient and and you were told not to have breakfast that morning and he'd had breakfast and he had short treatment and he died, and it was we knew someone had told us anyway, and we knew he died, but they they hid it from us. so And he was the youngest person I ever knew that had it. But he died from choking. He must have vomited or something. And he'd had a breakfast, you [00:49:30] see, and then came in and had, and it was just keep quiet. Came out later. Of course, that he did. But we never really knew it was wasn't talked about at all. Was CT talked about at all amongst the, you know, the people in the hospital? No, no, it wasn't. I was trying to, um, get the records together to get some sort of [00:50:00] case. And this was years and years ago, and I asked if I could go into the ECT room and I went in there, and the minute I walked in there, I just fainted. I just I you know, it was just such horrible memories. It was just Yuck. It was like a little torch room. You see, stainless steel beds and the AC T box was still there, and [00:50:30] it was, uh it was blooming awful. Did they ever use ECT as a punishment? Oh, I Absolutely, Absolutely. I I'm sure you know that I was given AC T when they weren't happy with me 100%. 100%. I like the time that I was let out and [00:51:00] my friend she was homophobic. And she got this guy to go out with me, take me out for lunch. And as soon as I got in the car, he started putting his hands and I said, Look, it's no use, mate. I'm gay, you know? And And Mum had said to him Don't give Joan any alcohol because she she's on quite a few medication. Oh, no, no, I won't do that. Anyway, I can remember, instead of driving us out to a cafe to a pub, plied [00:51:30] me with alcohol, I can't remember having anything to eat. Took me back to his family batch waikuku and attempted to rape me. And he plied me with all the side on that a dispatch And I was in a terrible mess and he pushed me out of the car home. And mom and dad had thought I'd taken an overdose, rushed me to hospital. What happened? They gave me a stomach pump. And then ECT [00:52:00] Yeah, so that that it was always there was a sort of a it just it just proved to me that AC, T and salt and water enemas were the two main things that we use. If they weren't happy with you, they would. That's what they'll do either an enema or AC. T. Yeah. Can you recall how many, um, shock treatments you had in [00:52:30] your time? Yeah, it was over 200. It was over 200. It just seemed to be my life. Uh, you know, I mean and and so understandably you can understand why I didn't want to be on this planet anymore. Yeah, I've got the I I managed. They were very, uh, when I tried to get my records and that they were very, very reluctant [00:53:00] to get any records. And at the hospital itself, they had records of AC T. And when I went asked them, they said they'd had a flood, and unfortunately, my records were the ones that were lost. But we managed to get them. I can't remember how we got them, but so I've got a record of the days and the numbers of ECTs. Yeah. [00:53:30] A review of my medical notes indicate that I was prescribed AC T daily between 21st to 31st of December 1973 on the second, the fourth, the ninth, the 11th, the 15th, the 18th, the 22nd, the 24th and the 26th of January 1974. Then the first, the fifth, the eighth, the 12th, the 15th, the 19th and 26th of February 29th [00:54:00] and 30th and 30. 1st of July 1st. 7th and 9th of August 1974. On several occasions in or about June 1976. The second, the sixth to the 10th, 12th, 19th and 20th of July 1976 23rd, 25th, 26th and 27th. And on other days in April 1977. [00:54:30] The second, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the eighth, the 17th, the 19th, the 20 the 21st, 24th, 27th and 30th of May. The 2nd and 7th, the ninth. The 21st, the 24th, the 27th and 30th of June 1977. The 18th, 19th 20 21st of April 1979 19th, 21st, [00:55:00] 23rd and 28th of July and second of August 1982. And on several other occasions, A letter from the house. Phy phy physician dated 18th of June 1979 says that I had 100 doses of AC T since April 1977 when you got your records back and you saw the [00:55:30] the amount of AC T that you were receiving How did that How did that affect you? I just, you know, it's like a dream. Really? It was unbelievable. I mean, things used to go on like I was Mm. Sometimes after he said, Hey, I couldn't see maybe for half a day to a day. And [00:56:00] that's in my health records too. You know, that brain damage was actually quite horrific. Yeah. So now I'm quite, um, anxious person, And I believe you know, anything like that. Neurological was absolutely been through the CT, you know, damaged through the CT. I'm lucky, considering you know, so much AC T that I'm reasonably OK. [00:56:30] You know, I'm pretty normal person. Yeah, reflecting back on all of that treatment. I mean, what are your thoughts about the medical professionals who gave that to you? I I'm not a hateful person. I don't have any hate in me, but I guess the only way I look at it is the staff were told what to do [00:57:00] from the people above them. Um, I feel a li a little bit of anger towards the doctor who always gave me the T and all the drugs, prescribed the drugs and kept asking about my sexuality. But he's passed away. I mean, you know, I don't put it. I don't hold a grudge. I don't hold any anger because it won't do me any good. [00:57:30] Yeah. Were you aware of any other, uh, people in the hospital that that were there because of their sexuality? No. No, I won't. And if they were, they were too scared to say, I guess. Yeah. And do you think that that was the primary reason you were there was because the sexuality was seen as [00:58:00] a mental 100%? There's no absolutely no other reason. Yeah, the dates you've read out, cross. Uh, I mean, a decade, you know that. So were you Were you in hospital for all of that time? Or you were kind of coming in and out, um, coming in and out. We have long periods in there and then come out and go back [00:58:30] and have to go back in here. So it wasn't all that time being in there all the time. I don't think they're allowed to hold people in, you know, long term. It was a public hospital at the time. It wasn't they had a psychiatric ward, which I was in, but it was a public hospital. Yeah, I think you mentioned earlier about how there was a time where you felt safer [00:59:00] in the institution. That kind of institutionalisation. And can you talk to me about that? And how if if you're coming and going out of hospital and and actually when you feel that hospital is actually a safer place? Um I guess because I'd got to the point that I didn't like myself. I had no confidence. I had absolutely no confidence in myself. Um um, my social skills, [00:59:30] I couldn't I didn't want to be around people. And I just guess that I felt when I was in the hospital, I mean, this was at my lowest peak. I felt that there was nowhere else I should be in hospital. You know, I just had absolutely no, uh, faith in myself. I just and I did want to die. I didn't, you know, So of course I was trying to kill [01:00:00] myself. And when that would happen, I get put back in hospital, and that was that's the main thing that was happening. I was always trying to take my own life because I just I'd had enough. I didn't just didn't want to go on and didn't feel, you know, life was worth living. And so and then I get put back in hospital, and then you just go through the same old cycle. So how did you break that cycle? How did you start moving away from the hospital? [01:00:30] Um, I'd I'd met my partner, a Singaporean woman. And, uh, you know, I've really fallen in love. And I knew that if this relationship was to go on, I had to break away from the hospital. And so that's when I made the decision. You know, I, I This is a big step for me. I'm going to go out and try and find a job. And that was [01:01:00] the other thing. I went out to try and find a job and a social worker where I used to apply at rest homes because I thought that was to do with nursing and one of the restaurants I applied for the social worker had rung and said, Don't employ Joan. Uh, you know, she she wouldn't last there. And, you know, you couldn't trust her. Blah, blah. Well, this woman, she was a lovely woman. Well, she said to [01:01:30] me I absolutely ignored that and employed her. And I ended up working there seven years for them. But the social worker had been going telling people not to employ me. So Yeah, I was pretty angry when I heard that. Yeah, and it ended up. Actually. That woman who employed me, her daughter ended up being in P MH. [01:02:00] This was in the nineties or 2000. She was sexually abused by one of the staff, disbelieved and, um, committed suicide. The daughter, and then he's just been found out again, abusing another one of the patients. So yeah, And what was it like you were saying earlier about going cold turkey off [01:02:30] all that medication? What was that like? Well, I've still got some side effects, like, really bad tinnitus. Um, and I got that when I started to go off. I just I'd constantly feel cold, freezing cold and shivering. Doesn't matter how warm the place was. Terrible nightmares screaming out at night shocking, shocking nightmares. And the nightmares actually went on for [01:03:00] a long, long time. Um, I it's It's all a bit of a blur, really, Because getting off sleeping pills, the copious amounts of sleeping pills is really, really difficult. You know, Uh, it's it's It's to tell the honest truth. It's a bit of a blur, that part. But not long after that, I went to Singapore for three months and [01:03:30] had a blooming good time. Yeah, with so much medication and AC T did you ever feel that you had lost yourself? Oh, absolutely. Totally. But then I guess there must have been a point where you start finding yourself again. I. I started to feel like a different person, you know, Uh, very [01:04:00] shortly after knowing I'd broken away from the hospital I, I realised that you know that I was me and that I was capable of doing things and I was capable of helping other people. And I started to feel a different person. I really did. It was amazing. It was really amazing. It was like I had a second chance at life, but it was through my own doing. If I'd stayed at hospital if I'd listened [01:04:30] to people, God knows where you know what happened to me by now? I don't know. I don't think I would have been here. Probably. Yeah. Can you talk about how that that that kind of recovery or that process of recovery from going through all of those experiences and then kind of starting to find yourself again? Um, like, how long do you think that talk? And and and what were the things? That kind of? Um [01:05:00] Well, my parents always had this thing because I, I you know, I. I had this thing of wanting to work and and at one stage, I had, I think, 44 or five jobs going at the same time I I. I worked at the rest time I worked at the club. Um, kitchen hand. Um, I worked doing open homes for real estate. What was? I can't remember what my fourth one was, but but mom and dad were always frightened that [01:05:30] I might get sick again. And so I went on to the you know, I was on the invalids benefit, of course, all this time, and I was willing to get off it. And Mom and Dad were, you know, it really hard to get on it, and and just in case you get sick again, you know, So because of that, I was always on an invalid benefit, and and these jobs are only part time jobs. Instead of being able to get a full time job, [01:06:00] I couldn't do anything like that because mom and dad were frightened that I I'd get sick again, You see? So but oh, it was amazing. It was amazing. Earning money and and and travelling and and I didn't have any. The only, you know, I didn't have any setbacks. I just as I said, the memory loss is a pretty big thing to lose your memory. And you've because I've lost. I've lost. Although I went to a, um, gathering. It was last year when my good friend [01:06:30] Beverly died the Tran tranny, and there was a woman there and her brother was gay. And we her and I were good friends, and she talked about all the things that we did as a you know, teenager, and it was just so amazing to be able to be somewhere and feel good. And even though I can't remember those things knowing that I'd done things with friends and that was it was really [01:07:00] it was quite uplifting. I felt quite uplifted. So I really I. I feel so blessed and so lucky. Now I really do, you know, And I feel lucky that I'm able to tell my story. And so when you finally got the medical professional saying, Well, actually we misdiagnosed you, when was that? Well, that actually happened. I was claiming [01:07:30] for burns to my head at AC C and I had to get a medical report. And there was this doctor, Li Ding. He was a psychiatrist. He'd been a psychiatrist at P MH and he was private practising. And so I decided to to go and see him and get a report, and he said to me, You you're very lucky. You're one of the few that have survived [01:08:00] at that time. And he said it was unfortunate that you were misdiagnosed. And so that was when I Yeah, I mean, I knew Goodness gracious. If I had been a schizophrenic. I would have been on drugs. I would have been, you know, le you know all these. I had friends through the hospital, and I even had a border here who was a schizophrenic and and I. I know what it's like for, you [01:08:30] know, to be schizophrenic. I mean, I feel terribly sorry for anyone who is who does have schizophrenia, although they have drugs for that nowadays. But, I mean, I would have been on medication. I would have been imagining things, but I was going. I was just me, you know. There was no way I had schizo and there was no way I had a mental illness. The only mental illness I had was what they had brought on themselves in the hospital. It must have been very challenging When somebody says it's unfortunate [01:09:00] that you were misdiagnosed. Absolutely. Because I was. I had meningitis three times. Got it three times. And I was each time I was admitted to hospital, and I felt at that stage that I wasn't treated, um, like an ordinary. I felt because on my notes it said that I was schizophrenic. I was treated differently, so I pursued that When I got out of hospital, I went to a lawyer and I said, I just I've [01:09:30] got to get this taken off my notes, you know, I have been misdiagnosed. I'm not a schizophrenic. I'm certainly not an alcoholic. And I'm not a drug addict. And all those things are in my notes, and I'm not having them on there. And eventually they took them off. I took a lot of a lot of money and a lot of hard work to get them off my notes. It was terrible. I mean, that was one thing I hated. And in fact I when I just at the beginning of the Royal Commission, [01:10:00] there was something that one of the lawyers had seen in schizophrenia, drug addict and alcoholic. And I really believe that he didn't want to take on my case, because I, I thought he I still had the feeling that he thought, you know, there was still a bit of he was a well known lawyer, too. I won't mention any names, but yeah, so there's been a really big fight to get that taken off my medical notes. So it's been a bit [01:10:30] of a trial right from the beginning. It's been a long since I got away from the hospital. It's been a long, long battle. Downhill, too. No, I wouldn't say anything has been very positive. But I, I got recognised for the burns on the scalp because you can see them, can't you? Memory loss, they acknowledged. And I got $10,000 for that. It was time. And [01:11:00] hepatitis I they didn't acknowledge they. And so how I got this? I don't know. Um yeah, and we'll just see what the outcome of the Royal Commission is now. But I still feel that I have to push to to to be believed. You know, it's it's quite hard. It's quite difficult, but so be it. Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more about [01:11:30] the abuse and care inquiry and and what your role has been in that? OK, um, when I heard the Royal Commission was going ahead, uh, I definitely thought, you know, that I was hoping that they'd be interested in the case. Prior to that, I I'd gone. I can't. It's weird that I can't remember this because it's only just prior to [01:12:00] the Royal Commission, but I'd gone. I can't remember who was running it with some lawyers and that and and it was to people that had been abused in state care. It was part of the Royal Commission and things weren't going that well and and all that. And I ended up getting $4000 in the end and and my doctor, my GP Actually, he is a wonderful man and supported me all the way. And he went on TV [01:12:30] for me and because they interviewed me on, I think it was something like Seven Sharp or something like that or the one just after the And he said that he thought that he was absolutely appalled that they called it a wellness payment. And he said, This is a guy talking on the TV and and he he said, I, I think they're very happy with what? They got $4000. That's what I got. And I was told I wasn't allowed to say otherwise. They could [01:13:00] take the money back muscle blow you. If you take the money back, so be it. It's such a small amount anyway. And I asked Doctor Glenn, would he would he say his piece on TV and he said he's really shy, but he'll do it for me. So he spoke on TV and he he said he had much of an insult. He thought it was. And so I had people like that. You know, my jeep I had What an amazing man to to do that for me and [01:13:30] speak on TV Just things like that in my life. I just feel so blessed. Yes, yes, I sort of I've lost my track of it when you're feeding into this, Um, this major inquiry Do you have to, uh, what kind of preparation do you need to do, Do you Do you have to, like, find all your medical records and all that, and And what kind of assistance do you get for that with that? Oh, yes, it was [01:14:00] a major thing. I had a dear friend and and we got all my medical records. I've got a suitcase out there and a big cardboard box with all my medical records, and I had to go through all of it, and then I had to write some sort of statement, and then I sent that through and and they were very keen, [01:14:30] uh, to hear my case. So I was sent up to Auckland. My my partner, me and I went up to Auckland, and that's when they heard my case. And I had lawyer on the case and and all that, and, um, then it's just a matter of waiting. We just have to wait now, and that's it's quite hard, because [01:15:00] oh, I don't know I I Sometimes I think at the beginning I thought I just wanted it to happen because I wanted people to know what I've been through and if it helps anybody else. But by the end of it now, I think it's been so horrific that I really think we are owed some compensation, and I'm not afraid to say it now. I mean, goodness sake, I [01:15:30] haven't asked him a lot in my lifetime. Surely something can be done now. We'll just wait and see. What was it like going through all of your medical files and then creating that statement? Some of it was horrific, Like I read things in my notes, like this obese woman. I mean, I've never been above, I think, nine. [01:16:00] I've never been fat in my life this obese woman who likes strange music, and I like the moody blue. You know, there'd be such derogatory. It was shocking and I was appalled. It was hard. It was blooming hard reading through those notes because there was some horrible, horrible things in there. But I'm glad I did it. And I was glad that I was able to get my notes and read [01:16:30] it because it was a real learning curve for me. You know, it was, But it was, you know, I mean, it's probably one of the hardest things that anybody has had to do in their life. Was go through record, you know, trying to read through records of things that you don't have a lot of memory about. And yeah, it was very, very difficult and very taxing and trying. And I just [01:17:00] at that stage I wanted as many people as possible just to know how horrible it was. And that's why I was prepared to tell my story on TV, to the magazines, to to anybody. Yeah, I just wanted people to know reading all those medical files. Did it give you any more kind of insight into what had happened to you and and and possibly why [01:17:30] not? Possibly why? But it gave me a bit of an insight into, you know, I mean, it just showed how far we have come. And we have come a long way as far as mental illness is concerned, because, I mean, I was just Yeah, you go to hospital, You lie in bed, you take your medication, you get up, you go for a walk around the hospital. So you go back to bed. You know, uh, it was [01:18:00] archaic. Really? Yeah. Do you think it could happen again nowadays? No. Absolutely not. No. For a start. Start? They don't in hospitals anymore. They don't have long rows of beds with people in them. Um, I don't think that those type of drugs, even legal now that they use then, um [01:18:30] you know, we've come a long way with medications and that, and I don't You know, even schizophrenics and people with mental illnesses. They've got medication and they know what doses to take. Why on earth would they give a gay person a whole lot of drugs? You know, in the future, I don't think it would ever happen. No, I don't reflecting [01:19:00] on all of your experiences, um, to do with, um, being in the hospital and the treatments. How has that changed you? How's that? How's that impacted your life? I think it's broadened my horizons, and it's It's I won't say it's made me into the person I am today, but, um, I've got some wonderful, like, I've got a friend who's a doctor who's [01:19:30] and she's a Buddhist and and and her outlook on life is amazing and and listening to her has helped me along my path and, um, given me the inspiration to be able to help other people and not just anything to do with mental illness. But, you know, I like to be able to try and help other people. Um, it's just something I like to do. And [01:20:00] probably through what I've been through has made me more of a compassionate person. Yeah, I think so. And sharing your story. And it's I mean, thank you so much for sharing your story both here but also in other media, but also at the royal Commission. But in sharing your story, have you had other people reach out to you? Oh, absolutely. [01:20:30] Uh, after, um, the day after the royal Commission and I went on to the breakfast show. Um, for example, I was at the reception desk and there were two women there, and they said we're meant to be catching a plane at blah, blah, blah. But we so wanted to hear your story, and we just Oh, we thought your story was amazing. Can I give you a hug? That was so precious. And [01:21:00] then I Yes, I've been places just after it and people say, Oh, can I give you a hug? So I've had things like that. Um, I've been approached by people, um, from my story. Like, What's the spin off? Um, have my story. And so, yeah, I got quite a lot of recognition through being at the Royal, [01:21:30] you know, telling my story at the Royal Commission and on TV a lot of positive I haven't had, you know, this is amazing. I haven't had any negative. Although my family is very religious. And my niece was married to a preacher and they won't talk. No, my family won't even talk about what's happened to me. I can't even talk to my sister. She won't talk about it to me or my nieces. [01:22:00] No one wants to know. And my family. So that's been a very difficult road to hoe to. Well, thank you so much for I'm doing this interview today because I think, um, hopefully when this goes into the archives, then then maybe the family can hear it at some point in the future and can hear your experiences. Um, and and it's only through you sharing that. We know [01:22:30] this and we can make sure that it doesn't happen again. It's an absolute pleasure. And on that note, Gareth, I'd just like to say a little poem that my partner, Marg, wrote to me. Well, I was going through the Royal Commission hearing. It's called Tribute to Joan. Joanie, your dogged fight for what is right has inspired all who know you. You have [01:23:00] climbed a huge mountain when most days it was all uphill. Now this is behind you. We can all rejoice with you and honour your brave and determined stand. You deserve this new beginning. You carry lasting scars from your long battle. I wish I could be a soothing balm to heal If I could crush your pain to dust, I would blow it away in the wind. If you had the [01:23:30] opportunity to say something to your 18 year old self, what would that be? Stay strong. Believe in what you believe and keep on loving yourself. IRN: 3474 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/kevin_profile.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Kevin USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 10 o'clock closing; 1960s; 1970s; 2000s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Avalon Television Studios; BBC; Bas Tubert; Bethany Home (Wellington); Betty Goodbox award (Dorian Society); Bill Sutch; Bistro bar; Blue Note Bar; Body Positive; Brian Tamaki; Britannia Hotel; Buzz O'Bumble; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 lockdown; COVID-19 vaccination; Candlelight Memorials; Carmen Rupe; Carmen's Curio Shop (second location); Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Cees Kooge; Chrissy Witoko; Close Up (television); Club Ivy; Club bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Colin Moyle; Daniel Fielding; David Halls; David Hindley; Des Smith; Dixon Street; Dorian Society; Dorian Society (former site); Duke of Edinburgh Hotel; Enough is Enough (2004, Destiny Church rally); Eve van Grafhorst; Evergreen Coffee House; Frank Lund (a. k. a. Toni Roget); Fringe Festival (Wellington); Georgina Beyer; HIV/AIDS; Hotel St George; Hudson and Halls (television); Hutt Valley Memorial Technical College; Invercargill; Island Bay; James Shaw; Jevan Goulter; John Jolliff; John Key; Jonathan Dennis; Kirkcaldie and Stains; Lee Sutton; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Lew Pryme; Lindsay Yeo; Logan Brown; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Manners Street; Marion Street; Member of Parliament; NFU (National Film Unit); NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Norman Jones; On the Corner (play, 2007); Outward Bound; Peter Hudson; Peter Sinclair; Radio Windy; Rainbow Wellington; Raumati; Robert Jones; Roger Swanson; Ron Irvine; Royal Vauxhall Tavern (London); Salvation Army; San Francisco Bath House; TVNZ (Television New Zealand); Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Taylors Mistake (Christchurch); Telethon (1976); Television New Zealand Archive; The Balcony/Le Balcon; The Carlton Hotel (Willis Street); The Green Parrot Cafe (Wellington); The Purple Onion; Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Toni Roget (aka Frank Lund); Trevor Morley; United Kingdom; Victoria Street; Waipukurau; Wellington; Wellington Public Library toilet; Winston Peters; acceptance; anti-COVID 19 vaccination protest; bisexual; blood donation; camp; children; civil unions; classical gay; closet; cottaging; cricket; faggot; gay; gay liberation movement; glam; good meat; homo; homosexual; homosexual law reform; how's your father; hypocrisy; marriage; marriage equality; mask; ostracisation; parties; pasties; played straight; police; poof; poofter; public bar; public toilet; rugby; sailor; saunas; sex education; sex work; skiing; sport; striptease; television; toll call; tranny; twink; window dresser DATE: 10 November 2021 YEAR: 2021 LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand CONTEXT: In this podcast Kevin talks about growing up in the 1960s, friendship with Carmen Rupe and the LGBTI rainbow scene in Wellington in the 1970s and later. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: It was very hard in the early days to understand about sex because we did not get sex education. So when things happened, it started to happen. You sort of talk amongst the boys, and a couple of times you look see who's got the biggest and what the difference is and things like that. But I never thought of it in a, um 66 sex of all sexing way. Um, I just thought it was one of those things that happened in disguise, [00:00:30] but by default, um, I spent a lot of time with boys, um, in those days, but we played sport together and that, but at the same time, we were pre in schools and there were girls there. It was a mixed mixed school. So often the girls would boys would partner for dancers and things like that and shows. But it never really struck to me as being, um, a homosexual thing. So So what kind of year are we talking? We're we're talking, um, early sixties and and in terms of school. [00:01:00] What school? Yeah, it was a polite, not polite, a memorial technical college, but it was no longer technical. Longer term I, um, came out. I was quite comfortable with girls, and I was also quite comfortable with boys. And I had just an open what I call a 19 sixties sort of approach to everything. Um, even to the thing of trying a few things out. Like like the old marijuana, which we all seem to have done. Um, [00:01:30] but it didn't go with me. Um, things like that. I was playing good at cricket and rugby. I found that, uh, trying to smoke anything, uh, was not good for my health. I'd be playing sport. I'd get batting at cricket. I'll be up to 10. 20 ones, and I'd be running out of steam, so I had to have a big change in there. I went to Outward Bound school, was sponsored by the company. We after our bound was over, it really, really made me wake [00:02:00] up to myself that there was leadership. I had leadership skills. Um, I won't go into Why do, But basically, that's what it was about to give you confidence. And, um, I came back on the and the guy coming back was from and I was 21 and he was 19 and we got to know each other. We got drunk on the boat going back, but he potted off and coincidentally, came back to work in Wellington at cod in, um, Victoria [00:02:30] Street, the television place where I worked was down what is now at the, um, public library. Um, six months on from that there was a reunion of people to do what that would be mainly to bring the old boys to get and fundraise and that sort of thing for the not so fortunate people to get to get there. And we ended up getting a bit a bit drunk and went back to his house. And he had an argument with the person he was, um, [00:03:00] doing, um, living there. And, um, he was asked to leave. Nothing to do with me being there, but it was obviously some argument. So we piled all his stuff into my car, and I couldn't go home at that stage because I had a few. So we drove to Island Bay and slept on the beach at that time. That was my first real relationship. We went flatting and we had a flat in, um, Overton with one of my, my, um, [00:03:30] colleagues for for the TV. And he happened to be gay. So he introduced us to more or less the scene in those days. And that was about 1970 71 72. Um, yeah, I got there, and then we end up with jobs in the, uh I want to go overseas. At some stage, I look for part time work and, um, end up with a job at the part time at Saint George, um, to somebody in the ski club who owned a ST George. And [00:04:00] he introduced us to, uh, the guy at the, um, Britannia just down the road. And my mate worked in the front bar, and that was a top class pick up girl thing which opened my eyes to a few things I thought, What are these ladies doing there? And then we were asked to go to the, uh, Royal Oak because we were honest. We what was in the tool at the end of the night should be there. There was no giving away drinks. I mean, we had no means to because I thought we would lose our jobs, and we were quite shall I say [00:04:30] good meat. And, um So what happened was there. We worked in the, um, tavern bar, which was a bar in the Royal, which was gay. And in those days, there were two entrances. One went went from Dixon Street and the other came from Manor Street. Now on the were like they had bars on the ground floor. The one was called the Where All the trains and that went and they picked up the Japanese sailors. And that was [00:05:00] all gone. The other one was a public bar, which is on street. And there was a big hallway that ran from Minna Street to Dickson Street. And what would happen is there not many guys in the gay team would come in the Dixon Street entrance. That'd come as they're going in a public bar, walk right through and come to the door in the tab in the bar. Well, the two of us work together and And what happened there? You take the shirt off, you get paid, paid, um, [00:05:30] 50 cents or something. I can't remember what it was, but we were We were played the game quite well. The bar shut at 10 o'clock and, um, by 10 15, everyone had to leave, and then we had to clean up. By 10. 30 we got introduced to the doyen club. That way people took us to the But it was an interesting thing. People that turned up there surprised me. I I'm in my early twenties. Um, the things I know today, [00:06:00] 50 years on is, um, quite a lot, obviously. But the experience there was quite comforting. You felt you felt safe. Um, but what happened with a really funny story was we were all taking along. We used to at the bottom of the stairs, we used to sell tickets for the booze, and then you go up the stairs and there's a big thing there, and there's a DJ there for radio. When you playing the music, It was really, really good. A guy called and it would be great. Really good. And all ages, um, [00:06:30] I was such a good boy that at the end of the year, they have awards awards for things, and I got award for Betty. Good box. Um, yes, it was quite quite a lot, I must say, But, um, what then happened was, um We were trucking along 11 time and we had been having a little bit of trouble with money and they asked me to be treasurer. So I became treasurer for six months because I looked pretty straight up on the It was obvious that, um, things things weren't totally [00:07:00] right there. But we turned it around and we had a little office at the top of the stairs and a little safe in there. But it was all cash in those days. So what? Everyone had a key. So one night we were there. Somebody came up and right behind him a policeman and I shat my pants because I was up the top of the stairs and also busy putting some money in the safe. So I shut the door quickly, and I stand with our top doors, and two of the cops went down and the music went down and they they they went round and see who was [00:07:30] there, and I thought, Shit, we've been murdered. But it wasn't. It wasn't really what we thought. And I started chatting to this guy there. The first one and I you know what's going on and all that thing and he said, Oh, it's all all good He said, We'll look at this look and see from hip and what then happened was, um they didn't do anything. They left quite brightly and turned out longer term. They were looking for a gay guy who had been on a cruise ship to Fiji and that who [00:08:00] had actually burgled or robbed people on the boat who was a gay guy. So they did find him. But that's another story. Um, but next day I'm playing rugby at at Park and for some reason, about three minutes into the game, somebody got seriously hurt. So the whole game stopped in those days. I was on the wing and my boy, So I'm on the wing and I was just standing there with the ball because she used to throw [00:08:30] the ball and I was looking at all the forwards and the other couple of guys come over and just chatting. And anyway, I looked around and I said, That place looks for me. I said, Oh, what time did you finish your shift? And the guy looked at me and he said, No, no, Well, anyway, it turns out they had some policemen in their team and some, um, other sort of that sort of thing in there. So, um, we had a good beer afterwards, and everyone coming. I play with a without people [00:09:00] giving away What? What? What it was about. But, uh, yeah, I found it interesting. And what they said to me, they weren't out after the gay people because, you know, we weren't in the toilets. We knew we were in a place and we were keeping through our group. And that's basically I found out later on one of the many years later when it calm as we discussed it and he said Yes, Well, it was good to have people. We knew that they weren't doing badly, but, um, [00:09:30] still in those days, from a personal point of view, I was mixing with the guys, but I was in a mixed flat as well. And eventually, um, the part my life took off from there. I went overseas, um, but came back and met with people. But things have changed. I went to London and I saw I went to the Vauxhall Tavern. I saw Lee Sutton and the real class drag act. Um, miss not what you [00:10:00] see in New Zealand, Carmen was about the only thing I'm not not knocking the ones down there that the ones that were real class were, um I did. I didn't concede him I. I mean, I come, but Carmen, I put Carmen on Tele in 1970 76. I was working for TV two and we were not hardly any staff in Wellington on TV two. So, by by default, we end up working on Tele, and I conned Carmen and to ask her to come and to, um go on because no one knew what it was. [00:10:30] So Carmen came to the Tele Tom, and the deal was that she would go on the panel. I do go on the panel and then go and answer the phones. And three in the morning has heard some of the girls could come down and do a dance, but they had to have patsies on and that, but no, not on their on their boobs, you know, Um but no, no strip, no naked stripping because we're on TV. So that was OK. Didn't go very well with Auckland. We're gonna have strip tea. But I think in the end they took them nationwide. But because they had nothing [00:11:00] on on Auckland at that time of night. Well, anyway, Carmen turned up early. She was meant to come about 1 a. m. and she turned up about 11, 11, 30 because no one was in the club. They were all watching TV and we were at at the show building up in to street. Um, they a few people come in. Well, Carmen came in and Baz Tuber was on the famous Baz Tuber was on the panel and he was a radio man. He saw Carmen on the far side. And he, [00:11:30] um, said, Oh, there's Carmen and got up and walked off to Carmen, which we only had four cameras. It couldn't exactly turn around came. So next one in the in the control room, they more or less. You got what was going on. So he brought her over and down. No mic, nothing. Um, beside him. And they got going. Well, anyway, the phone started going berserk, wanting to talk to Cameron. So we pronk her over there, and she did. She raised a lot of money. [00:12:00] I mean, it was a novelty thing, I think I don't know. But anyway, the girls turned up early, too, and they sat there, and they had their long coats on and all. And we had the music. It all organised. It was pretty cool because some people turned up to do something and we didn't have a band there to go behind them, so we had to bring their own music. Um, but anyway, we were going along quite happily, and Auckland called for any help with anything. So they ended up putting us, you know, ladies on, they did a very good thing, but they died at another [00:12:30] one at 44. 30 AM. And that become a bit embarrassing because bozo ble was was was, um, supposed to, um, become on at six at 6 a. m. with you see, all we had this school kids arriving, Carmen girls going around in buckets. One has lost one of her, one of her. And, um, I turned around to one of the guys working here, and I said, Oh, shit. And he said I got to learn some time. [00:13:00] So we did have a good time. But those were the days where um, it to me. I found an acceptance of people not looking strangely at people. Um, you know, there was a there were homophobia, because at that stage, the, um, 1986 thing hadn't come through. No change hadn't happened, but it was from a under underlying point of view. I was always worried that I might lose my job, but turning that around, um, in the [00:13:30] people that came to New Zealand in the sixties to help New Zealand television were from from British stage and theatre, and they'd done some television experience. Most of them were gay. And, um, you work with them and they didn't write it down, but they were quite exciting. Some of the the guys we had who really want to call them. I think I call them twinks these days. But we didn't realise that you just saw yourself as yourself. Um, but no, the the things moved [00:14:00] on. But the good thing about it was that television got rid of the glass ceiling for women because it lifted them up totally, um, into because you had that woman's programmes and you end up with, um and people like the hall was on you and the halls. Um, Peter Sinclair, Um, put a lot of people come out of the closet in that respect, but we didn't really They didn't really get beaten up or anything. But at the same time, I've always always [00:14:30] worried myself that I'm gonna get scrunched in the bottom of a ruck somewhere. You know, um, but I people were quite surprised. You know, in some respects, I may even have that leaning because it just looks just played straight. But that's me. I just with me. But life went on. Um, those are the early days. But once I did go to some parties where we had, uh there was a group of guys, um, case and John and well [00:15:00] known group in Wellington we got invited up to They'd hired a house after Airbnb type thing now, but in those days, a house up there for about two weeks at Christmas, everybody piled up to you. What was cases name? Coo coo. And he was working in a I didn't print it down. And, um, where the BNZ was in Ireland. Um, Courtney Place used to work the, uh, company name, but I of course I knew him and I was in the ski club committee. I used to use [00:15:30] our So those are those are sorts of lias that happen. You, you you help each other, but, um, yeah, we get up to you, and, um, it was I would have been, um, before I went overseas, So we went to 72. Um, we we got invited up to my flatmate, and I and, um, we went but up there before we went, we got a phone call, and I mean, no. Um, what do you call it? Um, cell phones. But we got a toll call from would be paid a charge, [00:16:00] and that was that was quite fun. What they wanted was another case of gin, and they'd only been up there for about three or four days. So, um, the supplies were running a bit low. Um, so we went and got some gin, and we put it on your account, but so we arrived up there, and there was a guy from, um, put with us who work in who was a and him. And I got on quite well, so it was a good time. But that was up there and what they'd done in the place didn't have curtains in some parts and in the in the, um, [00:16:30] bedrooms at them. So they put newspaper up, so, you know, and we went midnight swimming rather than midday swimming, but, uh, people had a pensions for losing their togs or couldn't find them, but it was quite fun. I think we would have been had been daylight have been quite fun, but, um, no, it was it was things like that. You did have close groups who become friends and could trust each other. That was my thing. The trust was the thing there. But I was quite surprised. Over [00:17:00] time, as I got more and more into the circle where the people were, they were quite genuine. Do do. One or two people won't say idiots, but but I was screaming, screaming a bit, you know, but, um, or loud when they shouldn't have been loud. But But, um, look, going on from that, um, I. I did get married. And had we I decided that came and I had a good discussion about things, and the person I know got married [00:17:30] to also knew Cameron. Um But she said the greatest gift for you can have is have Children. And I asked her, and I did an interview many years later, um, with with her and ask her, You know, she enjoyed her life as it was, but, um yeah, but II I would agree with her, You know, it gives you meaning to your life. So I wasn't totally gay, you know, on the far left of the radar. And nor was I far right on it. Um, I was [00:18:00] sort of middle, but some people didn't like that. You know, you can't You can't sleep with a guy and you can't sleep with a girl. Well, that's your problem, not mine. But I just see people as the people. And what do you call it? Love or what? I don't know, but to a time when I will help people. Because in my days, in the early days people help me. Would it be at work or whatever? And as I got older, I saw the younger one struggling. I went on to Rainbow Wellington [00:18:30] for 10 years on the committee, and we did a lot of things. Um we did the civil Union we did the marriage thing. And the later ones we dealt with blood. Things we did with, um HIV, Um, in in that respect, um, HIV There were quite a few broadcasting people who died from it, and they were close to me. I had worked with them side by side editing film or helping them research something. And one [00:19:00] of the saddest things I saw was a really talented guy. One day I hadn't seen him for a while at a and I heard him say, Oh, hi, Phil. Good to see you. I turned around and it was like walking death coming at me completely. Grayer ski eyes. You know, I It was tragic. Um, I didn't know what to say. And all people, people, nobody told me. And all people, um, just said, Oh, he's got cancer. And that was the way he was a lovely guy. But it turned [00:19:30] out another one passed away. I used to be an a who who was the head of department. He passed away. So their names are in the, um we We record it everywhere. Um and they have a memorial each year in Wellington. So I'll go to that. But also I met, um, Daniel Fielding. He was working at the bar as I was working, and he took me to the sauna and that my introduction to saunas, What was the bar that you were working at? The Blue Note Blue Note [00:20:00] in Corner. And Vivian, which was the red light district. Um, I made a, um, show in 2007 called on the corner for the Fringe Festival. Um, what that was about was a was a written in six weeks because we we as a fringe as a bar had, um, been a Bruno. We changed over the called the fringe, Um, because we're trying to get a wider sort of thing. It was an all night bar. It was the last. [00:20:30] We were all known to the gay community. But you had anything in there, even even a, um a lady who had a very good way of throwing cheers across the room right across. I mean, she would have won the shot put at the Olympics, but, um, when she lost it, or someone called her something that that was it. These days, she's a model of society and you gone quite a high way. But, um but basically, I drew a line in the sand on 1986 and I said, Let's create the district as it was [00:21:00] in street going backwards, Um, went to the prostitutes collective and got all the newsletters, and I learned that prostitutes do not sell sex. They sell time. That was going and I was I wrote A and I used a lot of my tenants stay upstairs in the play. So eventually we had, uh, 20 people in the plane we had, um what's the name? We used the karaoke [00:21:30] music. Nobody didn't have to pay music rights because we already had our own. And they would sing because I, I am one that haven't seen London with the live means that they can actually sing. So they all the ones that they sung the people we had, except for where we had to do fast costume changes on stage. We we prerecorded and they mind. But you didn't notice because people were moving quickly. Um, but anyway, to play, we, we we we booked great days because nobody had booked [00:22:00] the first week of sort of shows the French for three weeks. So two weeks the last two weeks had it. So on we went and I had. The youngest cast member was 19, and the oldest was about 72. And before John Joli was the narrator, he he later on, he had been involved with civil union and his, uh, partner. He was in the thing, and we had half time and what we did before then and we we did the cheese cheese song. And, [00:22:30] um, it was just We are the boys from over the hill. We really know our sex. There's nothing here than to use the and And then they started throwing condoms into the audience and said, Go for it because it half time. So So it was a one real fun show. Um, but we had people in there, and I had one got permission from Carmen to do a skit. It was a skit of different things during what happened in the year, um, being lonely in the street, the drugs and all that [00:23:00] shit, you know, can you hold the We We had, um, had the people in the show. Um, And as I was writing the script, I was going upstairs occasionally. So do you want to be in it? And can you do a drag act or something, You know, but we had a straight boys do some straight boys in it. 11 was doing We're doing healing as this thing came off with the pro law and all that from 1986 that things broadened out. So we did a song called Sexual [00:23:30] Healing. And we included our DJ who had who was also a male stripper, and he stripped to the jockstrap. And it was the final night. I didn't know what was gonna happen. We got the full Monty. But it was one of those shows that just developed um, and I had one where the section would come and and we did the tea cup sequence, which is where you have to cut one way. It means you want straight sex or up on the side. It means you want a boy and you want upside down and you want a train. But [00:24:00] you know, that was it in Carmen's autobiography or so I used that skirt and that went down like it. But But I had a problem because we could not rehearse the show. So I had made the show in segments. And then we we did a final run through and at the last minute I realised that John Joli was the narrator, was behind the bar, and it was like a TV thing. You go to the news reader, and then you have the act on stage and give them time to quit. So but we had nothing. [00:24:30] John talks to Carmen as she arrives because she's coming from the balcony, and, uh, then she's got to get to the coffee club, which is just walk across to the stage. But I hadn't written the script so and the same thing at the end of the thing, I hadn't got her off stage. So I said to to Moore, was the, uh she She was a lovely lady Maori lady very much in the older Cameron. Um, but anyway, she was She was awesome. But [00:25:00] I gave her a book and said, Find something because there were so many little things we fixed up by. By then, I had a director for the show, but, um, what happened was on the night, I did not know what was gonna happen And she came in and they did The skirt and all the audio. We were packed house, by the way, packed house. Mostly, um, older people. When I say that about 30 plus crowd and a lot of them were relating to what was going on. Um, and she came off and she started walking to the stage [00:25:30] and she said, Hello, Albert. Parliament not setting tonight so that everyone laughed at that. Then Oh, David, the flowers. Those were great. Do Mum like them? Yeah, I'm really glad to do that. And she got up on stage and went through the, um, skirt of the cups and all that. And then she came off the stage and I thought, What next? And she's walking off the stage, really standing up straight and right, right? A large lady. And she said, Somebody asked and you know, do I hear [00:26:00] somebody ask me if I was pregnant and she said, Oh, and I flapped up one. And she said, Well, actually, I am. And then what's that? Do I know who the father was? And, uh, do I have eyes in the back of my head? Well, every night the show stopped it. It just It just drew everybody. She was She was brilliant. But what I liked about it was the acceptance that people weren't calling in a corner. And when we the last [00:26:30] thing we do, uh, on this thing is we do I am what I am as a, um, curtain call at the end. And we did that. And people we got every night a standing ovation. Um, but the thing was, I flipped it into two halves. I got criticised because the the the last half, um, dragged out a bit, but we decided we had to have a drinks break, so we sold stuff over the bar. So we went for half an hour because everyone is chatting away, you know, and and anyway, I had [00:27:00] Tony on the the opening night catastrophe. Tony was, um, the drag queen from way back. And he got on and he sang a song. It is the right way to do it and that mean bear in mind. He's 72 and as he got up on the stage, he chipped up and sprained his ankle. So for every night next of the next eight night, he um sat with his feet and a bottle of bucket of ice drinking gin so he can get on stage. So it was one of those sort of [00:27:30] They said, Well, the end story at Finn has a final night, and you all go down to San Francisco and we're all having drinks and awards been given out. And somebody somebody said, What are you doing? You're meant to be out there. And what do you mean? Well, this caught you out. And what the hell for? We we won an award for the most colourful show in the fringe. Um, honourable mention and in the theatre section. So I thought, Yes. So where it comes to that. But what [00:28:00] it did show to me was the acceptance of society had changed from when I was trying to trying to put myself in a closet for that reason. Um, I, I am what I am, and that's basically it. What year was this is 2007. 2007. You've covered, um, well, decades worth of of material. And there is so much in that. Do you Do you mind if we just go back and can I ask you a couple of questions about, um, particularly [00:28:30] in the the days when, um, this is well before homosexual law reform. So we're talking about the sixties. What was how how were homosexuals or bisexuals treated? Um, bisexuals were probably like I told people by the gay community. The guys are pretty saying you're not gay or they used to get ostracised. You don't go with those, and and that was that was that way. Um, yeah, [00:29:00] the the rugby clubs and that were, man, um oh, we're not gonna play a bit of a puff or whatever, but because they look pretty straight and I believe they put straight, I think you know, I. I more got worried that somebody would find out. But I got away with a lot of things because I work on CV and they called me glam. But no, it was, um there were things that that you didn't do. I mean you. It was an underlying thing there. It was not right to be [00:29:30] a homo homo. Um, but it it was uncomfortable. What kind of words would they use? Oh, um um yeah, I can I can honestly just come in fine detail. But it was. But, you know, I, I touched on it because there were guys there that obviously the way they're born in in their system were were gay. And I mean, they were window, [00:30:00] um, dresses and things like that, and they obviously go. What's wrong with him? It's not in your face. It's like John And on, um, are you being served? Clap your hands around, by all means, But you're not going in the face of somebody as straight, and you're trying to straighten them out and to get them, you know, to be your friend. You know, um, the the thing was, ironically, there was a lot of British, uh, shows on at it was the interesting part. Hudson and horse got laughed at, you know, got accepted, [00:30:30] and that would I would say that would be the first I could be wrong. But the first play in New Zealand, that was New Zealanders were gay people on screen. So was it one of those things where you could be in certain situations? But actually, you knew when to kind of pull back and and actually Oh, hell, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah um, let's say some of my friends, When I had a big birthday party at the end, I was, um, on my own, and my wife and I decided [00:31:00] that, um, we want to go our own ways because the kids are grown up. We had a big, big party. I had my bank manager there, my travel manager, everybody in life and bloody dentist, for God's sake, um, just invited them along because there's a station in your life and and, you know, one of friends here, But But, um, a lot of people who knew me did not know me and, um, to me, they said that it explains a lot. Yeah. Um, [00:31:30] yeah, just Well, it was a great party. I mean, you you have you have a party in a blue note and then the the the big drag queen. Turns out Amanda, who I was at managing at the time, decided to sing. I am what I am to have the speakers out outside facing the state Highway one and fighting out, dancing out with a microphone in the middle of state Highway one, traffic lights and everything coming to a standstill while she does a number at my birthday party. I mean, that was class. Um, the other class was that [00:32:00] we had John Key. The prime minister used to come to Logan Brown across the road from where we were. And one of the things we did was do shows for him, climb out on the balcony and have the two dicks below that are basically guarding him because he was at the window up upstairs, and, um, we put on a show for him. Um, you were jokes like that you would get away with now, and, um, that will have to be. We were there until [00:32:30] 2009 would have to be 2008. You were about to about 2009. Yeah, he's got Tuesday night down at, um, Logan Brown. I mean, when he used Winnie, Peters used to go to it was a great wait, wait. But, um yeah, but when when he was so small. You know, um, I was at the I came back from a trip and went to the green one night when he came in with, um, James Shaw, Winston Peters and James. [00:33:00] I mean, behind the scenes in Poli. I mean, I had a lot to do with Parliament. At one stage behind the scenes, it's, you know, we've got a job to do, and now time to relax. But at the same time, you you get some pretty stick. It don't blow hards, you know, and you got some people you never hear. So in the in the sixties, how did you meet? Um, other people from the rainbow community. Um, I didn't know there was a community. I mean, [00:33:30] I'm in the sixties. Did you even consider it? Because in the first half of the sixties, I was at college and, um and then went on and I started TV in 60 67. So the community to me didn't exist in now. Well, now it was later on. Um, but I didn't meet gay people, but I wouldn't say there was a community of people there, and it wasn't until I got to the door and in the seventies that that's when it became apparent. Um, [00:34:00] well, I'm just trying to think we when we went down south, um, yeah, yeah, there was in the Christchurch. Now we used to get on the overnight my friend and I used to go go skiing at Mount Hut and Porter Heights. We'd go down on the at eight o'clock on Friday night and, um, Mel, I think Mel was on the on the boats in those days and famous. Mel, that's, um, we had to check with him, but But we'd go down to Littleton, would [00:34:30] get on the train, or they the boys would pick us up at the evening. I think most of the time we got on the train and got to Littleton. They picked us up, took us straight to mount, Did the glam things like laying out a white table cloth of bloody chandeliers and the whole bloody lot in the car park, which you know. OK, Yeah, OK, I look and off we go skiing. And then that night we'd go to a party in something like Pendleton and, um, really classy places and look at some movies that someone smuggled in from overseas. [00:35:00] But yeah, that that was that. And we we stayed at somebody's flat house. But they had a good good group there, and we went down as a Taylor's mistake in Christchurch. Yeah, yeah, we went there for Christmas. Somebody had a batch, and there was a whole group of people there. I was not I was familiar with, um as I say, case and that I mentioned earlier. We went to places in Island Bay. But ironically, next door to where we are now was a very famous house, [00:35:30] which was, um, had a a symphony orchestra pianist, deer who was a gay guy. Paul Cole. He passed away many years ago. He used to have the grand piano deer, but I used to have, um I've spoken to the lady next door who spoke. She told me she said it used to be a gay scene of men dressing up, as as ladies was next door. Now, at the moment his partner has passed away. He died years ago in They're actually going through the files. And somebody in the archives has been up [00:36:00] there. That's next door. So they're going through. They're finding a lot of documents about that. So, um, that's all been taken out bit by bit, I think. Roger. Roger from, um we got 35. 24 next door. It's been sold. Yeah, and some of the stuff still there. We still got to get it out, but yeah, What was? Unfortunately, I won two later, but but, um yeah, No. So there is that going on. But basically, [00:36:30] I didn't really know. I just me It was me. I mean, you know, I like I like I like people who played sport. I like people who, um, swimmers on that because, you know, you always, um you should see See what they were but did Did did Did you ever name it like, did you ever you know, like, say, gay or bisexual? I mean, or was it just This is who somebody was? I don't think I knew the word gay. No, not really. [00:37:00] Um, no, I never knew that. I wasn't until many years later. This gay I could be wrong, but I, I don't recall the word gay. Um, maybe in London, What time I got to London in 2003. I mean, in 1973. Um, yeah, but we went to the, uh it was a big eye opener. London to go to Vauxhall on. Um, what's the name? Tuesday night you'd go to whistle in Camden Town for Sunday lenses And there were a lot of kiwis here, uh, Australian [00:37:30] kiwis, Um, and, um, then we go to hampster he and some bathed in the men's area, and then we'd go down to the green man, I think, at the green box or something. Um, for the dinner night and it was all good. And we tend to get to know some people now working in BBC. That was classical gay. It was classical gay. The commissioner, um, liked me really much. I was able to grab his hat off and wheeled up to my edit that day with his hat on. I mean, it was [00:38:00] a lot of fun, but, um, yeah, but it was very, very more open in London than it was in New Zealand. So do you feel like, in the late sixties did you feel repressed or liberated? Because I'm thinking that, you know, gay liberation didn't happen until, well, you know, the kind of activism activism stuff didn't happen until, say, the the late sixties, early seventies. Well, bear in mind that closing I started about in 1967 at 10 o'clock and then your age was [00:38:30] 21. And then you come 20. I ignored the law in terms of you know what the hell You want to tell me what to do? And that was the thing. I just stop you. I What happens privately at this stage, The stage with me you don't need. I'm not in somebody's space. Um, and that's my my attitude to things. You know, I just like some people in the thing yesterday in the demonstration stuff. A lot of you. I'm gonna do this, but it's a wrong game. They can play yesterday. But what I'm saying is, I don't [00:39:00] I didn't see why that's not right, but I I'll do what I want to do. And, um but I'm not going to do something that somebody can run away and say, Hey, you've done it. You know, uh, it's naughty. I mean, a lot of people, um, in Wellington, in that club from all walks of working. So how did you come across the Dorian Club from? We were were working in the, um, bar and bar, and we had to be up [00:39:30] by 10, 10, 30. So people often said to us Well, what are you doing after? And so would you like to come and have a drink. Of course we want to have a bloody drink because we were actually not allowed to drink. And and we we walk down from, um from what it Dickson street to Lampton to the opposite. Or now with David Jones that there was a later do and they moved up to Willow Street village. The building got pulled down, I think. And the one opposite David [00:40:00] Jones we was Was that like, on the first floor or so Not ground floor, but first floor? No, it was on the first floor. The staircase went up. I think it was Hannah's shoes. Stop. But I could be wrong. I had to look at, but I have in my mind the shop was there and there was a door here and after you went upstairs and it, um, then stepped up another half step to get to the dancing. And there was a I think toilets and that, for some reason, there, but and the office was [00:40:30] there, it wasn't straight up. Come up the stairs, your office there. Then you go up another two or three to the next bit, so I don't know why that happened. But it was there. But, um, yeah, it was good. We had They had Sunday parties there. Um, and I think once we had a ladies party because I remember taking my one of my place there. But a lot of guys that's funny. Guys did not want women in their in their bar, and they didn't want it in, um, up there. When we worked in New York, there was still at the days that the, um, lounge bar [00:41:00] upstairs was for women. That's where you took your your partner. So it was segregated. Segregated? Uh, your public bar was men Tavern bar was men. The best was men and the and the Chinese. But upstairs was a nice lounge bar And that in those days, when I read back in history, the lounge bars were for ladies the same at, uh, Britannia, the public bar with the men and mostly people working at the Dominion in those days pointing it and all that. Um And then, [00:41:30] um, the bar up front was for let take a lady, but mostly your lady for taking you when you went in there. Because that's what we are secret place. You know, the pre You going down? Uh, basically where New World is, Um, And you had on the corner. You had Duke of Edinburgh. That was That was a mixture of upstairs. You have a mix of people, and then you went down. You had the, um, Saint George [00:42:00] across the road, but that was pretty straight. And then you went down. You came to the Britannia? Um, the Carlton now, the Carlton had a lot of us TV people in there. But then you drunk to about seven, and then you went up to the So there was a creative people who had to go home to the wives and kids going home, and the others of us went up and did a nice smell in the air occasionally, but, um so, like, literally, there was a bar on every corner. Yeah, well, you you you look now, [00:42:30] Um, well, in those days, Cuba Street would become Cuba more than 67 when I started working. Um, so, yeah, it was I mean, the the oaks is is became a pound in one part, but that was upstairs. And that would have been. And that's where the banana bar was for a while. You Scott, would tell you about that one. That was a bar there and then tucked into a, um, dance dance floor bar up there. But [00:43:00] that all changed when the building got demolished. And the, um, bar was that known outside of rainbow circles as a kind of a rainbow meeting place. Um, I'll put it this way generally. Yes. Um, but having said that, you'd have people mistakenly walk in and look around and you smile. We smile. OK, guys, what do we like to drink? Uh oh. And out they go. Apologies. We'd send [00:43:30] them through which I had just come through here. Just go out there. The bar. You wants us there. Don't send them to a whisper, but, um, no, it was that. I mean, you caught because the middle of town and bear in mind that the hotel, the hotel room above you, they come down to drink at the bar and, um mistaken. Well, I say mistakenly, but some people will. I remember all the guy took their shirts off one night. There was a lot of English sailors there, but I think they were in the wrong thing. They should have been in the [00:44:00] but But, um, you know, it's it's you just don't know. But no, it was, uh, to me, I never I only worked Friday on Saturday nights here. We did not seem to have any altercations. Not inside the bar. Um, we've had one or two. I you know, Steve had this problem where somebody's come out and then come all all ops and he or their way out and argue and that we never had any of that. Um well, [00:44:30] I didn't experience, but then again, I wasn't a full time barman and just getting back to the, uh, Dorian. So what kind of people would be going to the Dorian, um, all game, any age? Yeah. Um, you get the familiar faces. I mean, we are the ones that are really known around town. Um, are you a businessman? Um, I we had MP once, um, came to have a look at the place. [00:45:00] Um, it wasn't Joe Walden. He got caught out in, um, Palmerston North. Um, but no, we were, um I think, um, what's the name? A couple of couple of people and I won't name them but back there, um, there were a few scandals which were the one in Christchurch with a was a complete farce. Um, you know, he's he's a lovely guy and very good politician, but he just got accused [00:45:30] of things were just not If you look at it logically, it couldn't happen. And the kids were The kids who were involved were out just to get money, and I don't even think they knew he was an MP but that those sorts of things came out. And II I was really annoyed about that. Um, no other allegations of the the 19 seventies had a number of politicians, um, being accused of homosexuality or or what have you? And it was, um a lot of it was a a kind of like, um, using [00:46:00] homosexuality as a political weapon, wasn't it? Yes, it was. And I mean, Lindsey got caught out and going innocently to the lower heart toilets. And then he got accused of whatever, and it wasn't right. And I thought sometimes I wondered, And when you look who was running the newspapers at the time, I could see the the this because we were accused of being left wing. Well, we weren't. You don't do a story. It's not true and doesn't stack up. I mean, we ironically, [00:46:30] um the back of our building in, um, Victoria Street overlooked the toilets in the library that Moya was supposed to have got into. And be honest, I was so naive. I did not know what what went on. Um, and some, you know, I did go there occasionally to go and have a just a standard. We were, you know, And But there was I was aware in, um when I played cricket, uh, in the late sixties, out there were toilets [00:47:00] where it is now in a swimming pool, and them and we finished early, and I sat in the car and I was just going there and went out. What note? I noticed guys were sitting in cars watching, and then I look back. I know now what is happening to go in there. And I thought I was waiting for my friend who came to finish and and anyway, and then the guy would come out and then Oh, that guy went in 10 minutes ago. He must must got a He got the shots or something, you know, but, um, no, [00:47:30] that that was what I learned was a cottage. It wasn't my scene. I never, never really got to. The toilets were to go in for toilets and get them out. And so the television New Zealand Building Was it on where the central police station is now on street? Um, with no, no, we were, um, where the library is. There was, um if you look at photos, there was a carpet shop. [00:48:00] There was a office block, uh, next to it with with us, uh, we production offices and preparation and programme. Where in Taylor Street was this is before 1975 up to about April 75. We opened. So what you did, you did production down there, and it wasn't studio based. And then you went up to studio and and all the programmes played from from in Taylor Street. So we were there. Then you had, um I think it was a liquor store under cars [00:48:30] and a shoe shop on the corner, but you went up balcony. But the thing about that was I volunteered to work a lot of night shifts because, um, I want I needed. I was getting studies and other things, but I wanted, um We just put a lot of equipment on editing machines, but do not enough. So I we had to do start doing night shifts, which is unusual in those days. Um, bear in mind there was no Sunday shopping and Friday night, late nights and all that. So you got to take a back LA. [00:49:00] So I volunteered to do night shift, which was fine coming in at five. Go home well, and have morning tea about, you know, lunch at about 10 o'clock at night. Well, on the second floor, we were working just me and my mate. Um, I'm editing away and I go to the toilet, and the toilet has happened to have a, um next to the urinal, you could look down on the balcony below you, and the window was open because there's a fire escape and all that. So anyway, when it's a hot day like this. And, [00:49:30] um, Anyway, I'm looking out there and I voice suddenly go. Hello? Would you like some coffee? And I look out and there was this lady I thought was sitting down there. It was. So I said to next door, there's a strip club there. Let's go down. So we climbed out the window, go down there and I've never seen people that have fixed us top and bottom before. And he cracked up and he said, Oh, what is it? They were getting dressed, you know, moved up here and God knows what. And that's my first meeting of came and she asked [00:50:00] us what he was doing. So when as we went on, um, we we went and visited the coffee lounge a lot. So he always asked me how TV was and things like that. She was really, really good. And that's how we got a friendship with how I got her on Tele. But yeah, but it was quite interesting. But that's that's was where the place was. And ironically, the affair was just around the corner, thinking of your first meeting with Carmen. What? What was your first impression? When when you met Carmen? Um, first impression [00:50:30] was very professional. I was surprised to find it in Wellington. We We were supposed to be a backwater, you know. And my first time when you met there, there was no, no Saturday shopping. And the pubs are shutting at 10. Um, you did not have the free and easy society we now have. Um but no, she was always glam. We I. I edited the final programme and close up. Um, we did an item on her leaving New Zealand, um, to Paul. Ransley was a journalist, [00:51:00] and, uh, you know, she knew I was around and I was going to it, and she was quite happy to talk about things. But one of the most moving scenes I I managed to get her to do was we had to end the programme somehow. And I said to her, You know, are you gonna leave the suitcase behind with all the the stuff? Are you gonna just gonna be car and the boy or what? And she said, No, I'll do something for you. So you said, find a, um with a light going with a back to you, but you couldn't [00:51:30] see her face. And the light goes slowly down and she takes her wig off and stands up, and that was walked off into the darkness. To me, that was very powerful because she had, um she stood for me. She you know, she done all sorts of things she'd made claims about naked beaches would be doing that soon. Um, she was, you know, in the forefront. And she had Bob James behind her. She was [00:52:00] wise. She probably paid the bill, but, um, yeah, my my payment account. First time was for this. This is a lady knowing what she's doing. It was unusual, but there's no way she could be running something like that as she was. And she had the lady at the back who used to. I can't remember her name off hand right now, but he used to spend in those days. We were vinyl records. And she'd say, And now we hope for you. Please. You ladies and gentlemen, do Dolly Dolly Jones or something. [00:52:30] And then she'd startling thing and crackle away, and then it would jump down. Oh, fuck. Start again. Um, but yeah, those are the things and and people I saw in that bad thing because we had a coffee. You could see who tweeted. Some of the people surprised me, one of my cousins, a school teacher, but, uh, he was sitting there in the audience and there were people that you see around town and going to a strip club. And I went well, well, but But she had the report for do it. [00:53:00] And it so went down because the the place got demolished for the library and she ended up with cars up the road. She went into the curiosity shop, which is down the top of Cuba. Um, that was another thing I didn't I didn't have much to do it. I never came up that part of town, but, uh, yeah, but she was always there, and people were always talking about her. Can you describe the interior of the balcony the balcony had at the back? It was a big open hall [00:53:30] with seats, just normal seats. No, no, nothing fancy, but we only sort of night time. But, um, so the the street side, uh, you came up and came in on the right hand side. The DJ box had its back to, uh, Victoria Street. The stage was face this place in, um, Eastern Those days. The stage was a big It was a big open area, and they serve coffee and then drinks quietly and somehow [00:54:00] they a bottle of coke may also have an A. And then you notice the cap comes up quite quick. Um, nobody got poisoned or anything, but, um, so you got the music from the back, and then you had the lots of lights on and the stage was a big white stage. Probably. I know how many metres this is, but but that stage with a with a curtain with a curtain, and they did not use the curtain, they used to come from stage right and do their numbers, and [00:54:30] they come amongst the audience, and there was enough room to get amongst everybody. Um, and the, um, dressing room was out the back. And of course, you had the bit I've described earlier outside where you can walk on a little bit of a deck, which is if I was so, uh, yeah, I know what's gonna happen. When we did have a bar in one building or the other, we all clang together, and it would surprise some people what was there? Um, but I had an open mind. I. I didn't I mean, people live and people got got to work. [00:55:00] Um, yeah, I got invited to some quite a few of their functions. It was quite interesting. How did how did the police react to Carmen? Or in particular, things like the balcony? Um, I didn't I didn't go too much. Um, I never saw any influence with it. I never saw police cars outside because in those days you could park right there. Um, but it was I think you could follow up on that one with the guy that went to the 70th, um, party. [00:55:30] Yeah, Yeah, he was the one that would be the expert on it, because I honestly, I didn't have much police in those days to Bobby hat. And, um, that was about it, as far as I was concerned. Um, holding cars and that and, um no I. I knew the only close thing I have with the police was at the That's when we are you talking to ask what your name is and all that shit. So, um, I did tell my name straight. I wasn't gonna [00:56:00] go any other way. Um, but but the thing was, um I never really saw the police do anything. No, I never saw there were stories in the paper from time to time. Um, yeah, but not I never come across him. But do do you think that was more if the police knew where you were? So, like, say, the Dorian or at Carmen's, that was actually they were quite happy for that because I think they were because [00:56:30] you were contained in that. Yeah, I think I think the police accepted that these things were happening. And unless you went across the line and doing something, something that you shouldn't and you should have stopped. I think that that was the thing. I don't think that that's a he. I don't think it was, um, like, we're gonna go out and find them. It's like the anything like the, um, overstays in Auckland from that era. Bear in mind, they were doing things that they shouldn't really have done [00:57:00] the way they did it. But I don't think any I. I don't know if they had the resources to do it. Um, but at the same time, um, they're probably more excited about judging, um, bill such and secrets to to, um, Russia up Holloway Road. And if we were looking at the gay people, if the If the gay people just keep them to themselves, And I think that would be my most important thing. What about, uh, S International Coffee shop on Vivian Street? Can you describe that? But that was the one where [00:57:30] you, um it's ironically, the Salvation Army owned the land land. Um, and, uh, and that's where the Salvation Army Church is now. So they actually own the land. They were charging her rent. Now, the thing about that, the Salvation Army, on the other hand, were telling you she can't be gay. Um, that's what I I'm in a hell of a bind here because I was adopted. And I was born in Bethany, just down the road from where I now live. And that was a Salvation Army home. Had that not been there, I [00:58:00] don't think I'd have been got to not say it was. I did. My mom didn't have. They had a good start to life with me as I found out. Um, so I was hypocrite for me to ignore the Salvation Army, but they used to go down Vivian Street. You'd start at, uh, the bar on the corner. The next was the music bar. Then there was, um a hole in the wall was a bit naughty. And then there was, uh, evergreen. OK, so this is actually, um, heading [00:58:30] east. Yeah. And we we we're going down on the section of Cuba and Vivian Vivian Street. On the opposite side was the, um, Papa Depo, a sex shop on the corner with all the different toys. And that's where a lot of guys went on and and just relieved himself at the in the, uh, little booths watching something. Um, Then you had the strip club above, which belonged to Papadopoulos. The purple onion was a purple onion. Not the music bar. [00:59:00] That strip club, so and then you had next to it was the big white one. I heard something, but it was owned by somebody in Auckland. Um, but there was a big strip club there, and below was the main cigar bar. And that's where I think you got ladies. That's now the recycling shop. Then you got what was here in New Zealand or head offices here and then became archives for a while. Then you got more little shops down to the so was actually further away. You had to physically get there from [00:59:30] if you're in the middle of the red light district. But Marion Street was the workers in the thing. Marion Street at one stage had 60 people working. And then you head up the street in Smith. The girls were working. So there, those are nice things. In the old days, you could drive around in a circle down Cuba up. Marion can't do now because of the way the motorway is. So people would drive through and make a choice and then go back and go up. Other times I don't go through. [01:00:00] And in my day at the, um, upstairs in the blue note, um, we had one of the girls, one of the girls there, dressed up, she had a lovely, uh, leather coat given to her by her friend from Auckland. And she'd gone out to Marion Street night early because we were watching the rugby and the flat. She came back. She said, Oh, I like my coat. It was nice and warm, and she came back about three quarters of an hour and it had egg going everywhere. And so I said, what happened? She said, Oh, some bastard [01:00:30] threw eggs at me that it was a nice way for your coat. So she came back, but that that was her walking the street and they were driving in a car. You don't I don't seen that since, um, but as I say, Carmen was further away, and she used to. She used to live partly upstairs at some stage. So when you got to Carmen's, it was not or dazzle. You had to know it was there. And then, um, there was a little window, [01:01:00] and the thing would open. Oh, you hear you. Hm? Ok, you can come in. And yeah, so was that on the ground floor, Actually, another issue. So, um, so what you go inside is a flamboyant, um, thing like an Egyptian parlour, right? I think you see photos of it, but the thing was there it's like here you'll be sitting here and someone will be sitting here and it's lit. Or so you thought. And this person has ordered [01:01:30] something. And while we're busy talking over their disappeared, they've gone through the bloody curtain and going up for a bit of house about that, you know, But, um that was on one side. But, um, yeah, it was. And then as you walked out, the kitchen was there. And the thing that they there was always do do I think, the name of door or something. Um, doing the dishes. And she'd always turn around and have a look at you. And then and then if you you said something rude because bear mind states were going [01:02:00] to Cameron and politicians, Um and, um, she'd come take her shoe off and chase them with a bloody hell. Um, it was really quite new. And I see her several times. Um, but then he went out the back, and there was, um Yeah, it wasn't much, but the coffee lounge itself had something about it. It was a mistake about it. It was calm to the to the, um and she she'd be waved through. She'd make sure she'd know everybody. I have television going. [01:02:30] Oh, how are you today? Have you? You know, it's it was like that. It makes you feel home. Evergreen did the same too. But evergreen was more or less, um, because you were which basically helped the people on the street, and I got a taste of sandwiches and things like that, but was was really, really a good coffee. It wasn't that. And also the coke never, never really tasted like real coke. I called it a classic Coke, but no. And you you didn't pay to get in. [01:03:00] Um, so I think once or twice we did. For some reason, I can't remember what it was. Um, the balcony always paid to get in. But how much would it cost to get Oh, God, Maybe about 50 cents. And bear in mind that when I started, um, started work. I was being paid £525 a year. And that turns one about $1000 in those days. And so would you actually tip the the dancers? Um, people did, um, they a dollar and, [01:03:30] well, we didn't have the notes. I can't remember. The word change was all it was. All changed. Yeah. I'm just trying to think how the hell we did it. Um, but the the one that I really liked was the girl with girl and banana on a motorcycle. It was a really funny one. But there were There were things to come and say, Oh, come and set a girl with banana, you know, But, um, people trying to as I say, I don't I just can't bring about was done because we we had, um one pen. You had [01:04:00] one pen? Yeah, we went up, and then it come up the 10 10 cents for five cents. 10 cents. Um, I want to go. Yeah, well, we know your days are two shillings and and crowns, and it's not like putting a dollar bill. It's not about well tucking into the undies or something like that, you know, Um, yeah, we we a lot of fans, but, you know, it's it's over the time I. I agree. More confident, um, [01:04:30] to be myself. I mean and, um, not in people's face, but just be realistic. And not for 10 that didn't exist. That was a problem I had in the early days. How then? I'm thinking of, say, when gay liberation. And when things became a lot more political in the seventies, how did that impact on the rainbow scene, particularly if if you've got a a generation or a number of generations [01:05:00] that actually don't want to be particularly ruffling feathers. But how? How did that work? Well, my my problem answering that question is simple because I got married in 78 and we basically end up out of town. So I was more. When the kids come along, you're focused on them, Uh, occasion. Come and see me and that, and they'd always say hello and that but my on the scene in terms of the clubs and everything from about 1978 till [01:05:30] God knows when, um 96. Something like that. I don't know. I just was not insane. I wasn't on the scene. I went on a lot of business trips, and I might have gone and had drinks at the bar, but not not. I mean, when I went to Auckland on business, it was the Empire and Dudley playing the piano. He was a, um a New Zealand steward in those days. But he was he was he get to know people like that, and, um and they were comforting in sense that they're just doing what they [01:06:00] want to do. Um, but no, I was more or less off the scene. What was it like then? Seeing the media coverage of, say, homosexual law reform in the mid eighties because there was a lot of coverage. They were brave. You had bloody Norman Jones. Well, he was wicked with his bloody walking stick flying around fly across that, you know, he he he came from probably it up. But he, um he there were really, [01:06:30] really strong feelings. Dear, um, as I say, I was in the job I was doing. I come across it and I thought the people were very brave that were getting out there. Ironically, David Hindley worked for TV, and I did not know that I worked with David, but I never really thought what he was doing was taking photos and things like that. I've been over to Vietnam to to where he's been over there now in, um, Cambodia or no, Vietnam [01:07:00] was Cambodia. Cambodia. Um and he knew he was in Cambodia, and, um, he was amazing. I mean, I. I moved into sorting out, setting up the television archives in New Zealand in 1982 81 82. I spent 10 years there, so you get to know the importance of holding on to stuff and all that sort of thing and balancing and bringing in computerization. What to do and and the idea [01:07:30] of make access to it was a hell of a lot easier with computers now. But I I'm just looking out at the blue sky while we did this interview, and I'm thinking I do a lot of blue sky stuff. You you had to go on a pedestal and just think way back and the BA basically in the blue skies thing was that archives have to be accessible for everyone. And, um, what's the point in doing all the stuff? And we used to have people who were all doing and I'll keep it, I'm gonna keep it. I look after it, but not [01:08:00] looking at the other side of it. And of course, now what's forced them open a lot is that money is required, and you've got to get out there and get some money. I mean, it was in my day, I had stuff everywhere. So, um, the first thing was rounded up off a from Dunedin out of a panel beter shop in and things like that. But it made me very aware. As I grew along, I went to conferences, And I thought, Gee, this is a big industry, a very big one. And, um, I end up writing the rules for the, [01:08:30] um, collections in New Zealand and, um, people like Jonathan Dennis and that were helping me along on the side. Um, we took over the national formula. Um, in 1990 I think it was my role there. People said, Oh, well, he bought it and I said No. I said, What I want for New Zealand was the fact that they had a newsreel from 1941 the current day under one roof. And not only that protected, that if TV NZ got sold that [01:09:00] they wouldn't go overseas. I mean, we'd have to all those sorts of things. So a lot of things like that we go through and it makes you important. And that's why I've kept a lot of notes and that what I've got, uh, on things, um, photos, some of the photos, I go back and look at it. Amazing. Um, so, yeah, it's your life goes along and at times where you can't it's going fast and you haven't got time. I mean, I'm trying to look for photos for you right now, and I'm know somewhere there. But there's about 20,000 photos here, [01:09:30] and I've already backed them up. But where have I backed them up? Is it on that? That this one? This one? This one you briefly mentioned earlier about, uh, HIV. And I wonder, are you able to talk about, um, how you became aware of that in the eighties? Yeah, Um, we just started stories about gay people and reality of personally. I just saw there was something happening. I didn't see it as affecting me because I'm in the the married environment with kids, [01:10:00] and I'm not out in the community, but at the same time, Um, but I was in broadcasting, Um, so, as I say, when I said about Mark one of them before, I did not know. They said it was cancer. I did not know at that stage it was HIV. I knew I knew he was gay. It was no problem about that. But I didn't realise that it was early days. It was really the right in the early days that happened, and the other couple of people I knew, um I only took an interest [01:10:30] in a in a sense, that who do I know? That could be possibly, uh, heard. And what support will they need? But it didn't really happen. Um, in later days, of course, we have body positive. I've been helping Ron is the sponsor stuff for, and I and that and the team. Um And it became more where I met people who actually heard it, and they were addressing it and, you know, sympathising with them Not not being soppy or anything like that. But just saying you want we're gonna go [01:11:00] go for a ride up to to some barbecue. Or would you like to come Not not ostracised and put them to one side and not wanting to know I never went down that track. But the HIV thing, um, to me, I didn't I wasn't watching that much TV I was making TV but I, I didn't watch it. Um but I didn't really do it. I didn't I as I say, I was in the archives by then and I wasn't making programmes. I wasn't editing programmes. Um, so no, I just can't really comment too much on it. I knew it was bad [01:11:30] did. Did you Do you think there was ostracism coming from rainbow communities to to people with? Yeah, I? I think it was, um, I. I just think that there were people scared, you know, that, uh, to get it. And, um, if somebody got it, they they they 50 50 yards away from them. You know, I don't want to know this person, whereas a lot of others gave support, but it was a great unknown. I mean, you didn't know quite [01:12:00] what it was, um, and we knew it affected gay people. But then we had that lovely little girl that got it. And then we had other things saying, Well, it's not just gay. Come on, this is a blood thing. And, um, that's why I When I was on Rainbow Wellington, I got a bit annoyed because if you were doing blood tests, you're taking blood donations. Then surely that blood must be tested before you put it into somebody. So why stop a person? A gay guy doing it? [01:12:30] You do do a blood test. The blood is fine and move on. It doesn't matter where it comes from. I don't know if they can technically say That's not in there, but all I'm saying is I felt ostracised and that I could not go and donate blood. Some people can't can't donate blood anyway. It's like having put a mask on or things like that or or taking the latest, Um, Covid. There are people who can't take it or or they need a lot of it because of I I things, [01:13:00] you know. What I'm saying is they don't take the vaccinations what I mean that, But no, I got annoyed that there was people there who should should have just shut their face, shut their mouth up and also step back and say, Dear God of grace of God, could go I And by doing so, um, they just learn a bit more and say, Look, you can't pick it up that way. Talking to them you're not gonna pick up ads giving them a lift in the car down to the movie [01:13:30] theatre or going to movies once or twice. Get them out of the house. You're not gonna get age and that that basically and I don't think people understood it totally. I think it has some really strong parallels for where we are now dealing with the covid epidemic. Um, we are what? Just coming up to two years, um, into the covid epidemic. And interestingly, in touch wood in Wellington. We we haven't yet. How had [01:14:00] an outbreak of the Delta variant? It doesn't seem to have been, I mean, all the way, but it's not been picked up in the waters. So So how has I mean, this is like, completely jumping, you know, to the present day, How has, um covid do you think impacted on local rainbow communities made them cautious? Um, there has been comparisons. I think some people will say, Well, ages is pretty bad, and this is pretty bad, but, [01:14:30] um, my friend has come back. Um, yeah, it's, um I think on all of us we've had to take stock of where we're at. I mean, let's face it. In the early days of of aids, um, some people were were not taking precautions and things like that until we quite a few people got seriously sick. So it was one of those things that was like, Do I have the flu injection? I'm not at my age, um, I I had it once and I got laid flat for about three days. But [01:15:00] maybe I should have had it. Um, but I never did. But I also took care of of making sure that I take care of people coughing and things like that. But my my do. My doctor says basically, I'm quite a healthy soul. And if I do get something, I'll probably fight it quite well. But then again, I've seen people. A guy that died and just recently it went very quickly. So you just don't know. You don't know? Um, no. To answer your question, really? Do the rainbow people I know are people [01:15:30] that are pissed off and people don't wear a mask. And what they saw on television yesterday is totally I don't think you would have seen a gay person there, and, uh, that was a kind of a mass protest outside parliament, and it was like anti anti mandate anti-government bring about the Communist Party. I mean, it really. It just got out of control. I mean, I'll give you an example of the demonstration. We went to the black church thing of, [01:16:00] um, Destiny Church. Right. Um, I, um that after it was over, we were I was standing up near the steps and there were a lot of Maori boys there and they were in a black shirt. They all came up, and I don't think they knew what the hell they were doing That, to be honest, um, as we're walking away down to, uh, town a couple of the boys, two of the boys were walking together and said, Sir, can you tell us where the the bars are? And, [01:16:30] um, what happened was IT it up? And I said, Oh, well, it's way up town. But I said, If you want an all night and you've got a blue night now they said, Oh, we're on the bus and all that, you know we'll be there But they said, Oh, we can go up there. At what time does it shut? So I told him I said, No, you of age? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, we were 18 and 20. So to cut a long story short and not going into too much detail, two of them end up dating with us that night, and it showed the hypocrisy of what had gone on in parliament before, They [01:17:00] did not have a clue that we were nice people. Not the same one being out there and, you know, trying to pick them up or anything, but came in the bar and then they they couldn't get back to the bus. So they had to go right out to Island Bay, and I wasn't going to run them out at that time of day. They were staying on the and but they didn't want to go back. So just there. And we took them down to JJ's for breakfast next day, shouted out and sent them on their way. They came from, um, it was [01:17:30] Victoria. But the thing was, it got me. The black said, This is This is all bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Um, and they they were down. They want to come to Wellington to work. And also they had rallies down here who happened to be on the streets, as went to he came down to part of one of them. So that was a hypocrisy of that. Um, the other hypocrisy of of was when he turned up at, um, buyers fundraiser [01:18:00] for kidneys in the, uh, street thing. A big thing when he walked in with and his wife organised and was used to be my flatmate and living here, But he, um they were the whole whole show stopped. Everyone there was you could drop The penguin came as he walked in That thing, it was about 100 people there, if not more. What the hell was he doing there? And there was a table book for them over there. And of course, the and all his bloody wisdom [01:18:30] come over to say hello to me. Come and meet my friends, and I'm going Oh, my God. I can because I know George Junior a long time, and she she she went over and said Hello. Thank you for coming, But who have fucking do sort of conversation? Um, but no, he it was, um those those are her. And I was saying she she wasn't too bad that well is gay, you see? So and he's right under the wing. So it I just can't work it out. And and now he's [01:19:00] in his sixties. Now he should know what what's black and what's white. But but I From my experience of it, it is, um I see those American things on town, Big clam and all that. And I think you're not doing too bad at that. And then you see the Harley bike and you see the other cars and that, and going around swanning around down Queenstown and God knows what when you're supposed to be in Auckland, Um, yeah, it It's just different, different world to [01:19:30] me. I just don't comprehend it. And considering what? That we're trying to get the Maori people vaccinated to save, um, to try and reduce that and young ones who's leading people. He should lead them to the right water. No, it's It's to me. It's just weird. IRN: 3645 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/queer_practice_a_panel_on_writing.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Queer Practice: a panel on writing USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Chanelle Moriah; Mia Farlane; Rose Lu; Sam Orchard INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD); Auckland; Chanelle Moriah; Good Books NZ; International Institute of Modern Letters (IIML); Marilyn Duckworth; Mia Farlane; Rose Lu; Sam Orchard; Samesame But Different; Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Wellington; autism; suicide; writing; zines DATE: 16 September 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Good Books NZ, 2/16 Jessie Street, Te Aro, Wellington CONTEXT: A panel discussion celebrating the writing practice of four queer writers. Chaired by comic artist, author and archivist Sam Orchard, authors Mia Farlane, Rose Lu and Chanelle Moriah explore what, how and why they write. The event was organised by Samesame But Different - New Zealand's only LGBTQIA+ literary festival. A special thank you to the participants and organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: E hoa mā. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou katoa. My name is Sam. I'm the chairperson of this panel. I get very nervous [00:00:30] talking in front of large audiences. So excuse me if I feel a bit nervous. Welcome, everyone. Thank you so much for coming along. Welcome, panellists. Thank you also for coming along. We run these events as part of the same thing, but different festival, which is Aotearoa's Queer, Trans, LGBTQIA Writers and Readers Festival. We have our main festival as part of Auckland Pride in February. We [00:01:00] also do these satellite events. And we really love doing these events in Wellington. A lot of our board members live down here. And so we're very excited for big turnouts. And also there's just an amazing queer writing community down here as well, so. Thank you. Um, we put on these events for free. We, as board members, work for free. Our [00:01:30] wonderful paid staff member, Liam, who's hiding in the corner, does so, so much for us, including these amazing zines that he has put together for today, which are free and available at the front. At the end, maybe you could pick one up for free when you're purchasing the books of these wonderful writers and support, um, Good Books New Zealand, who have, who are hosting us today. Um, also you can head over to samesamesamedifferent. co. nz to have a look at [00:02:00] the other festivals that we've put on. We try and record our sessions to make them available in the future. And we're also sponsored by incredible people, including Creative New Zealand. Um, but mostly, We're supported by the people who come along to these sessions, so thank you so much for coming along. So, our panel is about queer writing practice, and I thought to start off with, each of us can maybe introduce ourselves and talk about, a little bit about the [00:02:30] writing that we do. Then we'll talk about how we write, what the barriers are, what gets out. Words on the page. Um, I have a lot of notes and a lot of questions. Um, then we do some readings from these wonderful writers and then the why we write. And then to end with, we'll have a Q and a and then we'll do some mix and mingle at the end. So it gives you a chance to talk to the writers as well as buy some books if you would like. So, um, yeah, shall we start with you, Rose? [00:03:00] Introduce yourself, say whatever you want about the types of writing that you do. Kia ora everyone! Oh, sorry. It's really loud. It's really loud. Um, oh god, I feel like I've put on my sexy phone voice. Um, Kia ora, I'm Rose. I live in Wellington. Uh, holy shit. Yeah, I [00:03:30] can't! Uh, yeah. Kia ora, I'm Rose. Uh, I live in Wellington. I, um, have got, I did the, uh, Creative Writing Masters at the International Institute of Modern Letters in 2018. And that was my entry path into the writing world because before that I was just doing like software development, which I'm still doing. Um, and so I wrote like most of my first book of essays during their MA year. Um, bar one essay, which I did [00:04:00] after their MA year. Um, and that book, Or Who Live On Islands, came out in 2019, and I am currently working on a queer climbing novel. Hi. Um, yeah, I'm Chanel. I wrote I'm Autistic and This Is ADHD, which are also behind me. Um, and I illustrated them as well. I don't really know what I'm supposed to say. I've been in New Zealand since I was.. Nine? Question mark? [00:04:30] Um, Yeah, I don't know. I'm autistic. I have ADHD. Um, I bring the chaos, so have fun. Thank you, um, Kia ora koutou katoa. I'm Mia. Um, and, uh, Farlene and, uh, I was born in Aotearoa, and I have lived most of my adult life, oh, of, um, Scottish, Danish, English, grandparents, and further back, Irish and French, and, um, I, [00:05:00] uh, have spent most of my adult life in Europe, in the UK, and, uh, I, um, I, uh, I And a little bit in France, a few years with my partner, the writer Kristen Phillips, in red there, sitting next to my mother, Marilyn Duckworth, also a writer, so I'm surrounded, surrounded by writers, which is helpful. Um, and, uh, I'm a novelist, translator, and reviewer. I've, uh, had one, uh, my novel, Footnotes to Sex, is published by Viking [00:05:30] Penguin Books UK. Um, it's, um, set in London and Paris. And, uh, I am a contributor, translator in No Love is Not Dead, um, an anthology of poetry from around the world. And that is about to be reprinted in paperback, which is great. It was here in hardback. Thank you for inviting me. I don't know whether I said that, but thank you. So [00:06:00] we'll start with the good stuff about how. How do you get started on a new piece of writing? Okay, on a new piece of writing. Um, when, um, you ask that question, I think of, because I write novels, um, it would be a new scene. So I would think of a new scene. And what, what I need is just, usually a few words. Um, it could be some dialogue. And then it's like. Spinning, and it has to catch the bobbin. It is really like that. I've got something to get on and write. It [00:06:30] kind of happens for two, in two ways. Depends if it's my autism or ADHD taken over. Um, if the autism, if the ADHD is kicking in, it's going, Oh, we're writing something right now, write and keep up, because it's writing happening right now. Um, so I just have to type as fast as I can. If it's the autism, I will have an idea and I'll go make a long, detailed plan. And then I'll follow the plan when the writing is happening right now, does that, can that happen at any moment? Yes. I wake up at 2 a. m. and my brain's like, Oh, I'm writing a story right now. You've got to hurry up and type [00:07:00] it. Um, I need to think about stuff for a really long time. Um, so I think the writing starts internally in between everything else I'm doing for like literally months. And then when I'm. Ready to put stuff down on the page. It's the scene that you described. Yeah, but I think I often marinate on thoughts for a really long time. Yeah. In marinating, do you write little notes to yourself or do you just. Is it all in your head until it's [00:07:30] not? Well, I'm really conflicted about notes because sometimes I'm like, oh, I know I'll forget this interesting thing that I just thought of But I also think if it's sufficiently interesting, I don't think I'll forget it entirely So like I treat my own brain as a filter of well, 90 percent of my thoughts are stupid and like the 10 percent can just like float to the top. So does anyone here have specific things, whether that's writing exercises [00:08:00] or environmental factors, like I like to use a specific pen, um, or a desk or paper that are, that feel like really integral to your writing practices. Um, I've really been trying to be less precious about that sort of stuff because there's so little time if you work full time, you want to see your friends, you want to get enough exercise. I'm like, I can't be like, Oh, I can only, Right, at 27 [00:08:30] degrees, and if my cup of tea, you know, like, it's just like, you just can't be that precious about that sort of stuff, so I've just really been trying to get into the habit of, like, Well, I've got this two hours, and I don't feel amazing, but I think I just need to use this two hours. Uh, so I keep an exercise book with me all the time, uh, generally, and not tonight, because.. Anyway, a piece of paper, otherwise a scrap of paper, or I write on my phone if I've got nothing to write on. Um, I write on the, on the [00:09:00] laptop, but I can't take it anywhere at the moment because it doesn't work unless it's plugged in. But, um, I, uh, yeah, so I don't really have, um, I like to find a quiet place and a free place. It's generally so library or, um, the park and good weather, um, but generally at home otherwise. Um, I don't have a special pen. I did have one and I lost it. I cannot stand doing my illustrations or art or anything. If someone can see me doing it, [00:09:30] I can't know. So I have to be by myself if I'm doing drawings. That's so interesting. Cause I used to draw in cafes all the time and I would get interrupted quite a lot and people would be like, draw me, draw me. Not, um, what happens if you get, wake up at the 2 a. m. and you don't take that time to, does the writing go after that? So with the [00:10:00] ADHD, um, my brain likes to not hold onto things. So if I'm writing something in the middle of the night, If I don't write it down, it's, it's gone. That's it. Done. Um, but it does mean that I end up with a lot of really chaotic documents. So like, I'll have an idea, I'll write like a paragraph, I'll save it, and then I, I'll leave it. And then I'll be like, ooh, I need to write this piece, and I'll just go and find those documents with the little paragraphs. I'm like, ooh, I could use that one, and that one, we'll just put them together. We'll make a story out of it. I can see you nodding, nodding along to this. [00:10:30] Oh, I can, I can 100 percent relate to that. I've got sort of a box of messy bits of paper, or just, and not even just in a box, it's sort of spread all, it's just everywhere, it's a, it's, it's a mess, um, yeah. My next question is, have you, and you've talked a little bit about this, but have you ever changed your approach to writing? You, you kind of insinuated that maybe doing the IIML changed your approach, or gave you some time? [00:11:00] Um, well, I didn't write before the IML, um, which was, I like, I, yeah, I think I like, I didn't really write until I was like, Oh, I kind of want to do this creative writing program. I think I need to start writing to apply for it. Um, And like, I think you need to have time to do the writing, which again is, I think the key thing for me was, um, I [00:11:30] couldn't start writing until I started reading. Um, and I stopped reading when I was about 16 because I was just drinking all the time. Um, yeah. Um, and then like, I think after like going through uni and all that and, um, now I enjoy having time to read. But I think that in the period of my life where I didn't read a lot, I like never really felt like writing. I don't think I answered your question at all, sorry. That was a good answer though. How about you two? Uh, I think [00:12:00] something I used to naturally do that my teacher actually trained me out of, I've gone back to doing. So, um, with the ADHD and my poor story memory with autism and My other forms of neurodivergence, I really struggle to read really large, large paragraphs. I, I, the walls of text are super hard. I can't figure out where I'm up, I, up to, I lose place. Um, and at school, I would initially make really short paragraphs and my teacher would get annoyed and merge them. Um, And then, when I learned Autistic with [00:12:30] ADHD, I realized, oh, I was actually doing it so that I could read it. So, um, when I released my autism book, one, a little bit of the feedback I got from ADHD ers was that they couldn't read it because of the watercolour in the background. Um, so when I did the ADHD one, I made a point of breaking up the text into smaller sections and using the colour to break it up further. Um, so that was one thing that changed it. Uh, thank you. So, I, uh, Early [00:13:00] on in writing, I would, um, I was, um, helped by reading other writers that, um, Violette Leduc was so important to me, um, I, uh, could relate to her determination and her perseverance and, and, and, and the mortifications along the way. And that was so helpful to me because I had, I just, uh, yeah, I really appreciate her. She's a, well, you probably know, French 20th [00:13:30] century writer of autobiographical. Novels who had a thing for Simone de Beauvoir and so that was helpful to me and helped me feel more Oddly confident or happy about not being confident rather and then doing an MA in middle at Middlesex University and that helped me to to act as if I Believed the writings ever going to get published and the last one is belonging to a writing group [00:14:00] Which I still belong to I've been in a writing group for It's over 20 years and it helps me to, um, because I need to turn up with the writing and I know I'm going to read it out. So that was, has been helpful. How often do you meet with the writing group and what is the structure of that in case anyone else is thinking about setting up a writing group? I was asked to join the writing group when I went on a, I did a A course after work, [00:14:30] and the tutor asked me do you want to join the group, and that's how it happened, and I've been going there ever since, um, and how it happens is that it's on Zoom at the moment, because it's London based, but a couple of us aren't in London at the moment, and we read out work, we each have a certain amount of time, and we give feedback, and we actually send the work in before, not always, it's more helpful if we do, but yeah. You've talked about, in the wonderful zine that you can [00:15:00] read after this, um, About your love of unfiltered and raw writing. How do you go from that into work that gets published on the published page? Yeah. So I've always been a messy writer. I said that, um, I was, as a child writing, um, it was just a mess. I didn't, and it hasn't, that hasn't changed. Um, so to get that somewhere, um, where it could get published, um, there are three things, um, if I was going to summarize them, it's, um, shifting the work around so that it [00:15:30] is in a place that makes some sense in, in the novel, um, cutting the dross. And, um, and adding, because I do a lot of dialogue and I need to add that. Um, also I'll do all of the ordinary things like checking the punctuation. And, um, that the, the spelling is consistent. And one very important thing is getting feedback. So, um, with my writing group. You all have books published. Has, um, having [00:16:00] books out in the world. Just spoken, spoken about this a little bit, but has that affected how you've approached your next project in any other way? Um, I'm really stoked you've both have written more than one book because I feel like I'm experiencing the difficult second book like I Throughout the first 70, 000 words, um, which I think is, you know, a decision I back. Um, but I think that a big [00:16:30] difference between the second and the first book is like, I was publishing the first book to a audience of zero, like no one knew who I was. I was just like, ah, I'm going to do this thing. Um, and now people are like. When's your book coming out? I really want to read it. And I'm like, oh, no, there are expectations where there were none So yeah, I think that's I I think in hindsight when I was, um on Residency last year that was something that I was really like having trouble with. Yeah [00:17:00] One of the things that Renee had said in the previous panel was like just don't be afraid of chucking things out How does it feel to, to, to chuck out 70, 000 words? That's a lot of words. Yeah, some people I've told that too think I'm like an absolute psycho, but like, um, I feel so good about that decision cause I, I just knew it wasn't working. Um, and so I've started, like, I've just restarted with the same characters, which is, I [00:17:30] felt like the only thing from the first part that worked. Um, and I've only written. Maybe like 10, 000 words at this point, but I already feel so much better about it. And even though, like, some people in this room have read some of those 70, 000 words that I threw out, um, like, I know it's not objectively awful, but I just wasn't happy about it. And I, I think that's kind of the first test. Like, you have to be your own first reader. And if you're not happy with it, then, yeah, I don't think other people..[00:18:00] So, I guess the major difference between my two books is that the first one was never intended to be published. I wrote it for myself. Um, and then it released, and I was getting messages from people going, Oh, can you do an ADHD one? Please do an ADHD ADHD one. Like, okay. So, yeah, the major difference was that the second one was written to be published. It was written for an audience, which was.. It's terrifying. Um, and I was so scared I was going to get it wrong, and like, you know, with the first one, I didn't care. It was like, well, it fits me. [00:18:30] No one's going to buy it. Like, it doesn't matter if it's wrong, who cares? Um, yeah, so it's a little bit scary. With the, the way I write is often, um, it's a sort of method acting where, where I will get into character. That's very much how I write. And, and so that's the same with all of my writing, except when, uh, with my, um, Uh, novel that I was writing that, um, was about suicide and, um, suicide obsessed character. I needed to do [00:19:00] a lot more, um, ongoing research, constant research, which I didn't. Do for the first one. It's sort of different. Um, but, um, so that was different. And, and my, the way I did it was to wander around with or as my character creating events, real events that, that, um, that I then fictionalized. And, and that's something that I did. I had a lot more time because that was in 2019. I [00:19:30] was, um, on unpaid leave from, leave from the poetry library in London. With my partner here for family reasons, and I got a Creative New Zealand Arts grant. And that gave me more time to, to be with my character. And so then I had this idea I will wander around with, with her. Um, so that was a different writing method, or sort of more. With that change of writing method, did you feel like there's a preference for one or the [00:20:00] other, or? Well, I suppose it's, it's quite similar. It's similar. It's just stronger. And I went out there very actively, you know, doing that. Um, I don't think I'd do it for another, I'm not doing that for the one I'm writing at the moment. Yeah. So a few of you have talked about terror, um, particularly of like expectations. What keeps you going when you do reach that kind of scared of what, what next? [00:20:30] Place or what the expectations are. Um, I just really hate having a job. Like, I'm like, Oh, I have to like suffer under capitalism. I have to make like, you know, I have to make money to fund my life. And like, when I have time to write, it just feels so much better. And so like anytime I'm like. Just my job, I'm just like, [00:21:00] oh my God, this feels horrible. Way more than people's expectations. Yeah, that's kind of what it is, and I'm just like, oh, it's actually so much nicer to write when it, when you come down to comparing it to like going to your job, that is deeply relatable. Um, I think for me, the nature of my books plays a huge part in it, so, Yeah, I was scared. I was scared to release the second book.[00:21:30] Um, but I, I had had feedback on it because I wrote both books, getting input from both communities. Getting input from ADHDers is very hard, I must tell you that. Um, but I had a lot of positive feedback on it and I was.. It was just me being scared. And I had seen how much the first book had helped people, so I'm like, wait, it's too late, my publishers have paid me for it, nothing I can do now. Um, let's just let it happen. Yeah. Hmm. [00:22:00] Uh, I don't know. I mean, with the suicide book, I didn't have any fear at all. I perhaps should have, because it's a subject that no one wants to read or talk about. Um, but I didn't worry about it because I was so interested in writing about this book. I was one of the, one of the books that I wrote with the least worry. I didn't care at all. I just needed to write this book. Um, I do care about how I've written it now. That's something else, but the actual writing, um, yeah. [00:22:30] I think probably one of my fears that I discovered along the way. Um, I mask, so I copy people a lot. And, um, when I wrote the first book, we'd finished it, literally finished it. And I looked at it again, I was like, Shit, I've copied someone's writing in here. Um, I fixed it. Fixed it, it's fine. But like, I was so terrified that I'd copied people and that I'd get sued. So we've got things that block us include [00:23:00] capitalism, fear of expectations, um, copyright violation. One of my things is that I've been writing this graphic novel Usually I write strip comics, which is like four to six panels. It's very easy. I just put it on the page and then put it out in the world. I don't care very much. This one is a full length thing and I've just gotten lost in it so many times in the middle of it that has just [00:23:30] left me with this feeling of like, I'm never going to finish this thing. I need advice around this. What, what, what do you. Do you, do any of you have strategies around what to do when you're stuck in the middle of something and it feels murky and there's no end in sight? Um, I just don't put pressure on it to be honest. I work when my brain lets me work. Um, and I don't worry about it. And like, yeah, I want to get things [00:24:00] finished. And usually, I'll do things in one go. I wrote an entire book in a weekend, right? I mean, the first book took me six weeks to write and illustrate. So like, I can get things done really fast. But if I do end up stuck, I'm just like, Okay, well if I come back to it, I'll come back to it. If I don't, I don't. Yeah, after my first novel, it was, um, very hard. I had the second novel syndrome, absolutely. But I'm, I'm not there at the moment. But I, um, I have writing friends, and that would be, for me, the one thing that I'm so grateful [00:24:30] for and need. So we talk with each other, or email, actually it's usually email, and that, that kind of um, help of being, of knowing just a few people very well, so that you're not putting a front up, you're actually saying how you really feel, that is very helpful for me. What is it about the act of sharing that with other people that feels helpful? Yeah, we share our mortifications, I suppose. Um, we share our, um, ups and [00:25:00] downs to put it vaguely, um, and, uh, and, and, and encourage each other. I mean, it's an encouragement, but also, um, oh, I'm, I'm sending this out. What about you? You know, that sort of thing. Um, on a very practical sense, like I guess I also felt like I was stuck in the middle of a project because I had 70, 000 words that I'd thrown out. So I already sort of knew lots about it, but I didn't know everything. Um, the writing exercise that I've put [00:25:30] in that booklet was something that was shared to me by Nathan Joe, who is It was the creative director of Auckland Pride, um, when we were on residence together in D. C. four weeks ago. Um, anyways, it was the only writing exercise I'd ever come across that was around dealing with a work in progress, rather than starting a work, and that was.. So useful for me and I just never seen a writing exercise like that before and that personally for me really helped me unblock a lot of the [00:26:00] things I was doing. Um, and they're like, um, process involves kind of like mapping out the structure of your story and just sort of like breaking into a different medium really helped me sort of think about where I wanted to go with the book. Um, and also like, I think I, I don't know about you guys, but I often just hate everything that I produce. And so I, and I think I had like put enough distance between the stuff I was sort of working on during that residency, [00:26:30] um, and me reading it with fresh eyes. I was a bit like, oh, this is not that bad. And like, sometimes you read stuff and you're like, oh, this is fucking terrible and it got published. And I was like, well, you know, at least I know my work is like. at that standard, you know, and so it's kind of a bit of like, ah, you know, some of the stuff I read day to day, I'm like, ah, that was a bit average. Like, you know, my work only has to be marginally better. And I kind of hate it all the time anyway. So it's okay. I think that's what I do with, with [00:27:00] my comics. I'm just like, I just put it out and I'll be mortified or I'll just be fine. It'll just be fine. Um, I think now we should, we should do some readings so that people can hear about the types of writing that you are all doing. Um, would anyone like to go first? Um, this is the start of the essay Cleaver from this book. [00:27:30] The cleaver is a flash of stainless steel. The blade is rectangular, about 25 centimeters in length, and almost a centimeter thick at the spine. The tang runs the full length of the handle, which is a flattened cylinder of metal with the same brushed hue. Two grooves on the bottom edge of the handle blend seamlessly with its sides. The curves and lines of the cleaver have an ease to them, a fluidity, as if metal naturally flows into these shapes. Just looking at the heavy [00:28:00] blade makes me quiver. It can part meat and bone with just one strike. My fingers twitch with an urge to take the handle and close my grip around its perfectly shaped bottom edge. It'll have a good heft to it. The blade is stamped with the logo of its manufacturer, Guangdong Yangjiang Special Steel. Using a cleaver is about force and momentum. My dad brings the cleaver upwards and lets it swing down under its own weight. [00:28:30] Bang! A fish's head is severed from its body, jaw shuddering from the impact. My dad turns the cleaver, calling its flat surface into action. Smack! A thumb of ginger splatters open, spilling its aroma. My dad rocks the cleaver back and forth on the chopping board. Fwop, fwop, fwop. A spring onion stalk is slashed into four segments. My dad faces the blunt spine of the cleaver down. Thump, thump, thump. A cucumber is [00:29:00] crushed, white seeds and clear fluid flowing out of its jagged surface. Using a cleaver requires precision. Tap a tap a tap a tap a tap. My dad finely dices cloves of garlic into pointed tips. Thump. Thump. Thump. The cleaver passes through a hunk of aromatic braised beef, slices falling cleanly and evenly, with a cupped hand at one end of the meat and the cleaver at the other. My dad runs the cleaver along the chopping board, [00:29:30] scooping slices of meat onto its flat edge. There is a Chinese proverb that goes, tóu biān meaning, the best meat is next to the bone. Sweet and sour spare ribs, a dish originating from the Shanghai region, has always been a favourite in our family. The pork ribs need to be cut into one inch segments, perfect mouth sized morsels. My dad is well practiced with the cleaver. Bang, bang, bang! He lifts it to chest [00:30:00] height and still the blows land exactly where he intends. Often, I'll see him sitting on the step outside the kitchen, holding the cleaver in one hand and a whetstone in the other. The whetstone is soaked in water for an hour before it is used. When it's ready, the matte stone has the same texture as the black sand shore at Kaiwi after a wave has receded. My dad passes the length of the cleaver along the whetstone in one steady stroke. The contact makes a soothing sound, [00:30:30] like a branch dragged against concrete. He turns the cleaver over. The sharpened side catches the light. He draws the other side along the core stone, and the sun's reflection dances on its beveled edge. Um, because there's so many different topics in my book, I decided it would be a little bit awkward to try and pick some. So I'm going to read an article that I wrote as the [00:31:00] publicity of, or part of the publicity of the ADHD book. If I saw life through your eyes for a day, what would I see? Stepping into someone else's reality can be like living in an entirely different world. Would you recognize life if you could switch places with me? 7. 30 a. m. My alarm demands my attention and my mind is quickly flooded with overwhelm and anxiety as I prepare myself for the day. Rubiffin works to get my brain in order. I dread getting changed as I dig through my closet to find the least painful garment to wear. I reluctantly brush my teeth and finally I pack my bag. One, headphones. [00:31:30] Two, lanyard. Three, watch. Four, phone. Five, wallet. Six, keys. I count out loud, grab my bag and head out the door. It's raining today. Have you ever noticed the way the raindrops trickle down the leaves, magnifying each vein that makes up the venation pattern? Have you noticed the way the sun shines and the water glitters on the sweet smelling roses? Have you noticed the drumming of rushed footsteps as they seek shelter from the storm? The water splashing and spraying as cars roll through the puddles? The chatter of crowds while trying to speak over one another as they forced their way inside? The clicking of umbrellas as people shut them down? The slamming of doors in frantic attempts to [00:32:00] avoid getting wet? The music in the distance that comes with city life? The humming of electricity running up the poles of dimly lit streetlights. Have you ever noticed all of these things at the same time while the water seeps into your socks and the cold breaks through the surface of your clothes? Have you ever noticed all of these things at the same time and felt frozen with overwhelm? To me, life is like a piece of music, but every aspect is a separate instrument that I experience individually rather than part of a whole. I imagine the bliss of being ignorant to the individual details of life as I see, hear, feel, and smell every little thing as its own separate piece fighting for [00:32:30] my attention all at once. But everyone seems to manage, so I pull myself within and I display a carefully created shell of normality. 9am, it's time to work, but there's a piercing sound echoing through the office. It doesn't seem to bother anyone else, but it hurts my ears. It's not electricity this time. That has a different sound. I can't make it stop. It's as if all of my senses have been amplified in comparison to all of my peers. The touch of jeans on the back of my knees feel like thorns piercing my skin. The smell of perfume makes me [00:33:00] feel as though I'm suffocating. I dislike the way some sentences vibrate as they roll off my tongue. I'm getting overwhelmed. It's not socially appropriate for me to search for the noise that others can barely hear. To be honest, society is blind to the plethora of social rules and communication expectations they require every day. While the world is screaming through all of my senses, I also sit monitoring every tiny aspect of my existence and being, every movement, every gesture, every tonal fluctuation, facial expression, sentence structure, and acknowledgment must be consciously and carefully chosen. I must monitor when and how I [00:33:30] make eye contact. I must ensure that I'm reading between the lines, not taking things too literally. I must not be too fidgety. Be careful not to be too blunt. I must automatically know when someone is being sarcastic or making a joke, and I must not be too sensitive. I must be authentic and express myself. But not like that. I must ensure that the correct emotion is displayed on my face, and I must somehow monitor all of these things and manage the physical pain of the intense volume of my surroundings without ever showing any sign of overwhelm or distress. Why? Because this is my daily life. I must do all of these things while still somehow actually listening to the conversation and getting my work [00:34:00] done. I must do all of these things and then bear the blame when miscommunications occur. I must do all of these things or be excluded and forced into isolation. Can you hear what I hear? Do you spend every day trying to act like you're not living in a world that is speaking in a language that you do not understand? Do you spend every single day doing all of the work trying to understand everyone else while they all just ignore the fact that you're burning out? Do you understand what it's like to feel incompatible with life? I'm going to skip a little bit because we're going away. The thing is, people see these struggles and think that I am the one who needs to be [00:34:30] helped or fixed. When you're part of a minority and the world sees your pain, they think the solution is to erase the existence of others like you. If you cannot exist in a way that is aligned with the majority, it is believed that the problem lies with you rather than with society. The reality is that's not true. I read all the message in the comments I receive. I hear the pain and the struggles. I see how drained we all are and I know I need to get up again and again and keep fighting. So I'll try again tomorrow. Right now though, I rest. Today wasn't the day and that's okay.[00:35:00] So I'm going to read, uh, from my first novel and also, this will only take five minutes, um, a poem from this wonderful pamphlet, um, by J. P. Seabright and then a short piece from, um, about how I. wrote the Suicide Book. Okay, so I'll start with this. So all you need to know about this is that [00:35:30] the main character is in Paris and she's just been at a restaurant with a woman who's 20 years older than her and she's got a thing for a bit like, um, Violette Leduc for Simone de Beauvoir. Uh, and it's not her partner. Okay. They left the restaurant at about 10. 30. May asked, Would you like me to walk with you back to your apartment? Francine said, yes, you can walk with me and will you carry my bag too? She smiled and held out her bag. Yes, I will carry your [00:36:00] bag if you like. May know I am teasing you. Really, you are behaving like the boyfriend I never had. I wouldn't want to be behaving like a man, May said. I don't see myself like that. Francine asked, how do you see yourself? This is interesting. Not like a man, May said. She felt embarrassed. You see yourself as a woman then, Francine said, and she laughed. Francine was either being mean or she was being flirtatious. I am a human being, May said.[00:36:30] And here's the poem. It's from Trauma. They go through the alphabet. This wonderful queer writer from, uh, London. Trauma W. Write what you know, they said, but not that. Speak your own truths, they urged, but not this. It's too raw, too real, too upsetting for others to read. It's not what [00:37:00] people want to hear right now. Do you have something lighter, less, you know, dark? Be authentic, they said, but not too real. Write what you know, but not actually about you. Write what you know, but what if.. This is what you've always known, what you've only ever known. Sexual assault, rape, suicide, incest, self harm, depression. Sexual assault, rape, suicide, incest, self harm, depression. Mental, mental breakdown, alcoholism, gender dysphoria. Exhaustion, mental breakdown, alcoholism, gender [00:37:30] dysphoria. Exhaustion, chronic illness, chronic illness, loneliness, isolation, pain, despair. Isolat Loneliness, isolation, pain, despair. Write what you know, but not yet. And now I'm going to read a very short piece, an extract from R U OK?, a writing event published online in Moxie magazine. It's about the fluid boundary between author and character, and um, as I said, um, where I was wandering around being [00:38:00] my main character. It takes place in a second hand bookshop in Te Whanganui a Tara. And you just need to know that the main character is obsessed with suicide. I, my main character, She, went to the counter. Have you got anything on suicide? I thought I'd ask and then I or she she was the one I was always thinking of Could get a cup of tea somewhere rather than spend half an hour trying to scale the psychology or self help sections or whatever Where there was in here picture piles of books on tables [00:38:30] and floor to ceiling shelves The man led her, or rather me, to the back of the shop. He said, you might find something in that section about how to help teenagers who are suicidal. He pointed over at the parenting section. And over here, he pointed at another non fiction area, you might find something about being near the end. But I'll go and look on the system in the meantime. Oh, thanks. There is always something a bit awkward about asking for books on suicide. On sex would be the same. But being polite can be a [00:39:00] help. I'm also interested, I added, and therefore so would she later on, in fiction. If you can think of anything, fiction or non fiction, anything at all. He went off. A Parent's Guide for Suicidal and Oppressed Teens. A blue dot sticker on the cover with the number 31 written on it. Not anything I am interested in. I am not a parent and neither is my main character, but still. I opened the book, as she would too. She did in fact question the point of this time wasting activity as she saw it. But I pointed out [00:39:30] to her that although I was interested in her primarily, I also had potential readers to consider, and aside from the necessity of variation and tone, some of them would be parents of teenagers, or teenagers themselves perhaps, or people who were concerned about people other than themselves. So we could at least pick up the parent's guide. And I reminded her that although her focus was tightly narrow, and rightly so, she was set on going to Parliament's public gallery while we were in Aotearoa to watch the debates around the end of life choices. An [00:40:00] activity you could describe as lacking in tunnel vision. Diversification, she said, variations on the parent's guidebook in my hands and in my character's hands. In pencil, on the first page was the number 10, and under that, Babies short for baby section perhaps excuse me I said to the petite beanie wearing person make her taller make her a man who was shelving nearby does this mean it's 10 That's right. Oh, thanks. Did that what did that make the [00:40:30] 31 mean then? Oh, well, if you need any help just ask Thank you. Not with my life, I don't. Preventing your suicide and that of others looked interesting or rather overconfident by Dr. Howard Rosenthal, who, as the blurb told her, or me if you prefer, but later her, teaches you to say no to suicide and really mean it. Scientific, scientifically sound advice in a lively, folksy manner. The most important book you'll ever read? You bet it is. I left it on the shelf.[00:41:00] The last section, before we go to questions from the audience. Why? Why do you write or who do you write for? Um, I mean, like I said, my first book I wrote for myself. Um, so I wrote it to put everything in order. I had just been diagnosed at the age of 21. I had been in the mental health services for a very long time. And at that point in my life, [00:41:30] I had been attempting suicide at least once a month. Um, so getting a diagnosis was.. It was a huge thing. It saved my life, but I had to then reprocess everything I knew about who I was and what had happened in my life. And that was just me putting it in order. So that was, that's why I wrote that one. The second one, I had seen.. The way my first book impacted people, um, and I'd been asked to do a second book, and I knew that with [00:42:00] ADHD, there's not a very great understanding of it, it's just hyperactivity, it must be little boys, they're violent, you know, and so, I thought, you know, well, I have the ability to write a book on this, people are asking for it, and I know that the first one was helpful, so.. I did it to help people. I like helping people. Uh, so I don't really think about the reader when I'm writing, but, um, I do tend to write about.. Characters who don't come across well who struggle [00:42:30] and that seems to connect with some readers And I also write a lot of dialogue. So I suppose people would read it if they like a lot of dialogue and they would have to be people who are comfortable with messiness with unresolved situations and Humor dark humor because I do think there's a place for it. I think it helps Yeah, [00:43:00] um, my first book I definitely wrote because there's just no, there's not very many. Asian New Zealand writers. Um, when that book was published, we had one book of fiction, um, maybe like four or five books of poetry. Um, this just wasn't really much. And there was not much that was, um, about a contemporary experience of migration, like there was some stuff that was like more archival, like about the history of like sort of the. Gold rush Chinese people. And then there was like the history of the, um, [00:43:30] you know, market gardening sort of generation, but I really wanted to be like, well, I came in the nineties as did a lot of other Chinese and other Asian people. Um, and there is not really any literature to reflect that experience. Um, and that's why I wrote my first book and then. Um, for the second book, I was just like, Oh, I can't write for an audience. It's too much pressure. I can literally not think about that. Um, and also I guess in terms of like a, [00:44:00] of a sustainable, like creative practice, I think I realized that I first and foremost had to write for myself. Um, and so I think that's why I was just like, well, I need to write something that. I would like to read, um, and that's why I also threw out my first 70, 000 words, because I didn't like reading it. I've sent through about a page and a half of questions, and Rose was like, We're not going to get through those questions. And I was like, I think we will. We have not got through the questions.[00:44:30] Um, and I'm going to end with the question that I want to ask, because I'm treating this as my own self help panel. Um, one of the things that I really struggle with is, That, as one of the kind of few trans comic people in New Zealand, sometimes it feels like people will read my comics as though I am talking about the trans masc New Zealand experience and [00:45:00] that stops me from writing because I don't. I want to be able to write for myself and to share my own things without it getting extrapolated onto a community. And I wondered if any of you had thoughts or feelings around, um, writing as a queer person, um, or with a marginalized identity and, and how you, how you process that or how you deal with that. I just address it straight up in my book, like [00:45:30] right at the start of the book, I explain that I cannot write on behalf of an entire community. The book is designed to be edited and adjusted for each person, and I have just created space for people to consider things. Well, um, I was reading out my book about suicide and I was asked, are there any lesbian characters in it? And, um, and, uh, but I'd already written the book by then, so I didn't feel the pressure to actually.. There is lesbian [00:46:00] content. It makes me think of, um, Hannah Gadsby, who, who, who said, um, I, I love this, she said something like, um, She was criticized for not putting enough lesbian content in some show, and she said, Well, I was standing there the whole time. So.. I think there's something true there, but, um, also for my first novel, um, Footnotes, it wasn't, um, it wasn't publicized as a lesbian novel. And, um, I was interviewed in, you know, Diva magazine and places like this, but it wasn't, [00:46:30] but I actually didn't want it to be a lesbian novel. I'm happy for it to also be a lesbian novel, but it's a novel about a long term relationship. Relationship and about all sorts of other things, idolization. Yeah, I'll add something funnily enough. Um, so the title of my first book, uh, the subtitle includes that I'm diagnosed. Um, and someone decided that because I'd written that I was against self diagnosis. And so the book wasn't for them. Um, so I tried to try and explain[00:47:00] that as well. Um. Yeah, I feel that so hard about the, oh no, everyone's gonna think that I'm the X perspective, um, and it's so hard because like if you read a book with Like, straight cis gendered characters. There's so many of them, and they have so many perspectives, and no one would ever think that there's a canonical cis gendered straight person experience. And so, I guess, like, the only thing [00:47:30] is, like, I think I've seen how much, like, you know, like, like Chris being the current part laureate, like, how much his work has sort of, like, influenced. Other like young queer Asian writers to be like, Oh my God, I can be doing this as well. And it's just, yeah. One of the, we can only just keep going and be, be supportive. I think is the biggest thing of like people. I like, I think as a general rule, I'm always just like, people should be writing and like people should be encouraged to write. Um, and [00:48:00] yeah, I'm just hoping for a future where there is more diverse literature and more diverse literature is being consumed as a default. So when you, you know, have a. You know, you can have a novel that incidentally has queer characters or like POC characters and that's not like the sensational part of the novel because we can all be like Sally Rooney's normal people, you know, like I think another thing with this is that You can never predict how [00:48:30] people are going to react to things and you are gonna get bad reactions to things So I think when it comes to writing you have to learn to be confident in yourself like I know my intentions with my book. I know that I was not writing on behalf of an entire community. I did my best to make that clear. I was very careful with my wording. But you know, there might be some people who think I'm talking about an entire community. And that's okay. That's not my intention and I just have to trust myself and be confident in what I've done. Wonderful. Is [00:49:00] there any questions from the audience? Hi everyone. Uh, my question's actually just for Rose. Um, when you were thinking about doing the masters in creative writing, what made you think, and you, you said you hadn't done that much work beforehand. What made you think that you'd, there was a writer in there? Um, shout out to my friend, Amon. Who said, Hey, Rose, you're really good at writing. Have you ever considered doing the Masters of Creative Writing? [00:49:30] Um, like before I moved to Wellington, I don't even know you could do a Masters in Creative Writing. Like I did not know that was a thing that existed. I felt very lucky that that was, I came here and that I knew enough people socially that had gone through the Masters of Creative Writing. And they were all quite encouraging about it. Yes. Thanks, Eamon. I would like to know how, when you're getting published, like how you [00:50:00] balance oversharing or if there are things you're scared to share and how you know, like when to hold something back and keep it personal or like, yeah, when you're sharing things that are a bit scary to put out there in print and get sold in a book. The thing is, I, I have no control with my ADHD. I share way too much, and I do it all the time, um, and I've kind of just gotten to a point where it's like, [00:50:30] I, I've been through a lot, and I could learn to put that away, I could learn to hide it, and I could learn to follow the rules of how much is too much, um, or, I can take that, and I can stand out, and I can make people know that they're not alone, um, so, yeah, there's a bit of a balance of not sharing too much, but I value being open and honest, um, I think my main caution is around which age [00:51:00] group I'm talking to. So if I'm at a school, um, I will still share my story, but I will be very careful in my wording. So, uh, example, I went to speak to a bunch of intermediates, a good 200 kids there. Um, and I gave my talk and part of it is, yeah, I did struggle with my mental health and the kids who weren't neurodivergent. Over their heads. They didn't know what I was talking about. The kids who were neurodivergent came up to me afterwards, um, and they asked me, very directly, if I [00:51:30] had struggled with suicide. Um, so it's, yeah, I think I've just gotten very good at Wording things to reach the audience that I want it to reach. And skipping over the audience. I don't want it to reach . Just one thing, I think that, uh, writers quite, oh no, I won't speak for everyone, but, um, a lot of novelists as well are liars. And, and I think it's a safe thing to be, I don't go to events and say, I'm now going to [00:52:00] divulge everything. I don't, I prepare. I know. Oh, I think they might, and I won't. And I'll ask this and I'll answer that. That is the truth. That much of the truth I'll give you. Hi, Jim. Um, there was actually an essay in my book that almost got pulled. Um, because when I was in the editing process, one of the editors at VUP were like, um, I don't know if this should go in the essay collection because it feels a bit too close to home still. And I [00:52:30] think that's something I really think about is like, I don't, I don't love to read trauma on the page and I would never want other people to read trauma on the page. And I think that. I think you personally need some distance from trauma to write about it in a way that is safe for a reader. Like, I think it's really different from if you're just like processing it, then like do whatever you need. But I think specifically with publication, like, I think Um, you, yeah, you want [00:53:00] it to feel safe for the reader and for a while I was, um, the nonfiction editor for a Australian based lit mag and which I think was popular with quite a younger audience and like so many of the nonfiction essays that I got sent to read, I, I would just read them and I was just like, there's no way I could publish this because I think I would be doing you a disservice to like publish something that felt this. Raw, because I'm like, I know you feel [00:53:30] about this. Like this about this now, um, but I also know how you feel about it will change and it felt weird to be like, and there's going to be this artifact that's attached to your name on the internet about it. So it's, I think it's really hard to say when something feels safe to a reader and like, you know, with the particular essay in my book, there was, it was obviously like some doubt in there that emerged for one of the people. For UP, but I think, [00:54:00] yeah, at the end of the day, like, get more people to read it, ask them how it feels about it. And then it is just kind of your call as well, because I was just like, oh, okay, I get that. They feel like it's a bit marginal, but there was a bunch of other stuff in the essay that I really sort of wanted to be published that was not about traumatic stuff. So yeah, it's a really, it's a really tough call. Yeah. Um, another thing, uh, in hindsight, looking back, um. [00:54:30] One thing I think people should consider when they are writing is what it's taking away. So, I released my book, and it wasn't until several months after that I realized I had given up the luxury of choosing when and how I disclose. My name shows up, it comes with my diagnosis. I don't get the choice anymore. Um, would I change it? No. But, I wish I had thought about it, and.. Made that choice before I had released that information. [00:55:00] So consider what you're sharing. I think we have time for. One more question. You can shout it out and we'll pick up. Um, I just wanted to ask Rose, when you deleted your 17, 000 words, or when you chucked them out, did you like, full on delete them? Or did you like, put them somewhere so you could look at them again? I mean, the file's still on my Google Drive. It's in the cloud. Um, but like, I actually printed out a hard copy right at the end of the residency. And I [00:55:30] was just like, I always was like, oh, I'll like, go back to this. You know what? I don't think I'm going to go back to this. Yeah. All right. I think we'll end it there and then you can have a chance to nibble away and read away and maybe buy, but thank you, our wonderful panelists. That's been amazing. I feel like we could keep chatting for a long, long time, but I know that, you know. We have to go home at some point. Um, [00:56:00] but a round of applause for our panelists. Also, a massive thank you to Liam and to the Same Same board for putting this on. Liam, you've done an incredible job, especially with the zine, but for all the work that you do, you're amazing.[00:56:30] . IRN: 3643 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/meet_your_rainbow_candidates_general_election_2023.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Meet your rainbow candidates - General Election 2023 USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Andrew McCauley; Craig Watson; Gina Dao-McLay; Glen Bennett; James Christmas; Michael Gibbs; Ricardo Menendez March INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 2020s; ACT New Zealand; Adoption Act (1955); Andrew McCauley; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bill English; Chris Carter; Chris Finlayson; Christianity; Christopher Luxon; Civil Union Act (2004); Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Bill (2021); Craig Watson; Elizabeth Kerekere; Gina Dao-McLay; Glen Bennett; Green Party; Human Rights Commission; InsideOUT Kōaro; James Christmas; John Banks; John Key; Keith Holyoake; Make It 16; Marilyn Waring; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Michael Gibbs; Ministry for Pacific Peoples; Ministry for Rainbow Communities (proposed); Ministry for Women; National Party; New Plymouth Prison; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Out at PSA Network; Planet FM; Posie Parker; Public Service Association (PSA); Rainbow Youth; Ralph Hanan; Ricardo Menendez March; Robert Muldoon; Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Treaty relations; Venn Young; Wellington; Winston Peters; access to health care; adoption; community radio; conversion / reparative therapy; conversion practices; culture wars; gay; hate speech; health care; marriage; marriage equality; media; non-binary; sport; trans; transgender DATE: 31 August 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Public Service Association (PSA), 11 Aurora Terrace, Wellington CONTEXT: Rainbow Wellington and Out at PSA Network hosted an event to meet with rainbow-identifying candidates standing in the 2023 General Election. A special thank you to the candidates and organisers for allowing this event to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Yeah, hi, I'm Craig Watson and we're at the PSA offices, uh, in Wellington. Yeah, so today, um, Rainbow Wellington is holding one of our professional networking events and we've partnered with PSA, who, uh, or out. psa actually, which is the LGBT group inside of the PSA network. And we're going to listen to some, um, MPs, some candidates who are standing for election, um, to talk about.. What's important for them and that are in the rainbow community and get to meet them and also just meet other people from the rainbow community [00:00:30] So rainbow wellington have done these can meet the candidate events for a number of years now Why is it important for you to hold these events? The rainbow wellington's kind of motto is about connecting the lgbt community in wellington Um wellington's a bit of a powerhouse when it comes to politics and and and policy and so we really feel it's important our place as a, as the kind of LGBT, um, one of the LGBT communities here to actually, um, connect our community to these candidates, these [00:01:00] people who we will see in the street who will be standing up saying, I'm gay, I'm queer, um, I'm standing for you. And we actually want to. Meet them and talk to them and find out and tell them our story and say these are some of the things that we are We're struggling with and this is what we expect of you if you're going to Be a part of our community and use that as a platform to stand on So what are some of the things that? Members are struggling with at the moment Yeah, I think, um, today I received a phone [00:01:30] call from, um, a health care provider in the South Island who, they were looking to, um, help a young person who is transgender move up to Wellington, and we were talking about transgender, um, housing for transgender people, um, for queer people who are suffering from mental disabilities, um, and there's a real shortage, I think, for, or there's a real sort of lack of care of established systems to help these people who often, um, um, Come out of traumatized environments, um, [00:02:00] low self esteem, low self worth. How, what is the, what is the, what is the, what is out there to help those people? And I don't think we've quite got that right yet in New Zealand. Um, the specialized sort of care that these, these groups need because, you know, um, and this, the case in point for this person was Um, they can't go back to their support networks of family because those family are the ones that are rejecting them. And this is unfortunately what this, what the, a very, I would say, specific need for our queer community is often whānau is not a safe [00:02:30] space. And so they actually need to leave their, um, support network. Traditional support networks come to a place like Wellington, where we are a lot more inclusive. But what are those systems and practices? And when you look around to community groups, they're often overstretched, overworked, underutilized. And so we really think that it's a, uh, an opportunity for government or, um, central government to stand up and actually put some processes in place. You know, there should be some support out there. The trans community is very much in the [00:03:00] media spotlight at the moment, uh, because of, uh, a lot of anti trans sentiment, um, particularly after Posey Parker's visit here in, uh, March. Thankfully not to Wellington. Um, are you getting a sense of that from, from your membership as well? Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, the transgender community, I think, are really, really feeling it at the moment. They're, they're under a lot of pressure, and I think, um, potentially under a lot of pressure. Unknown or unnecessarily aware pressure, um, the, the, you know, this, the, the rhetoric we receive from the [00:03:30] states and other conservative countries, um, it, it, it filters through and it does get through to the transgender community and the, the people that I speak to and who are, and my transgender friends, they are feeling it. And I, and I'm really worried about them. Um, And really want, and really want to, um, see government and I suppose health providers do a lot more for them, um, and, and, and to find out what we can do. I, I sort of, my hope is that they are able to find people and places [00:04:00] and community groups that they can reach out to and ask for help. And my fear is that the only people that they trust to reach out to are already snowed under with these requests and, and underutilized. We're coming up to a general election, obviously, while we're talking to the candidates tonight. Um, last election, the last parliamentary term, saw a huge amount of rainbow MPs in Parliament. What do you think it's going to be like in the next term? Yeah, I think, um, I mean, [00:04:30] you know, if you look at the polls, that, um, I think we will probably see slightly less. Um, queer MPs in, in Parliament, um, it's, I, I still feel our LGBT Parliamentary members are not doing enough for, for our LGBT, uh, most vulnerable, yeah, um, and would like to see more, I think, you know, and I think we've seen, we've seen a few indications from um, people like Elizabeth Kerikeri where, you know, she's been pushing really hard and got Probably her hand slapped.[00:05:00] Um, and I think that's a sign of, um, how government really is handling our LGBT people. So what are the key messages that you want to, to give the candidates tonight and then in the future give to the, the, the new rainbow politicians? Yeah, I think, um, yeah, this is something I have been thinking a lot about because we, one of the events we often hold post the election is, hey, let's meet all the rainbow candidates. And so one of the things I often think about, what would I like them to do? What would be their top [00:05:30] priority as an LGBT person in government? And I do come back to a, a ministry or an agency or a, or a group that is set up to support the healthcare and the wellbeing and, and other things for rainbow people. And I think that's still. It's still a need in this country. I don't think we're there yet. We've still got religious organizations which discriminate our people. We've still got healthcare. We've still got our prison systems that are still discriminatory. We don't, we're not there yet. And I think an agency needs [00:06:00] to address all of these agencies and get them up to a level we're happy with. And just finally, if If there is, uh, if there are community members hearing this, uh, tonight, and, uh, they are feeling more vulnerable because of the kind of atmosphere around at the moment, um, what, what, do you have anything to say to them? Yeah, I, I would, I would ask them to reach out. As I said to the person I was speaking to today, we don't have the answers, I don't, I don't know the things, but I'll do my [00:06:30] damn well hardest to try and find those answers, and I spoke to two of our board members after that conversation, and I used the words, I am mad that I don't know The, the solutions to these problems, where we are a significant LGBT community group in Wellington, and we should know, I should know who the housing providers are, I should know who to turn to, and I don't. And so I've asked them to go out and find these things, with the aim of creating a website or a resource that I can point people to that has all of those answers [00:07:00] there. And I think that as a minimum, that's what we should be doing. Kia ora, my name's Gina, my pronouns are they, them, um, I'm a Green Party candidate for Mana this election, um, and we're currently at an event with Rainbow Wellington in Aotepehese. Kia ora, my name is Ricardo Menendez, I'm a Green Party Member of Parliament, and what genius said about where we are? Why was it important for you to be here today? I think it's a really awesome opportunity for, like, general rainbow people working in the public service, but similar spaces to come together, [00:07:30] but also of course it's election year, and as a rainbow candidate myself. I'm awesome to talk to other people who are, you know, working in similar spaces or just rainbow people working in their spaces as well about why it's important to vote generally but what we're proposing is the Greens as well. So as rainbow candidates, what are the biggest issues this election for, for rainbow communities? Hmm. I think, uh, supporting the rights of our trans, non binary, and intersex communities who are facing increased vitriol, [00:08:00] um, as a result of the rights and far right rhetoric is a priority for us, um, and that includes greater access to public services, but also, uh, ensuring that any legislation on hate speech actually includes some rainbow communities as well. Um, yeah, Taitoko Ricardo said I think also, um, the access to, um, healthcare and mental healthcare for our rainbow communities, particularly as we know, um, that a lot of us, particularly our younger ones, are experiencing poorer mental health outcomes, and also, um, ensuring that we all are having that livable income, that warm, [00:08:30] dry, safe home, that.. We need, because our rainbow communities often are, um, not exceeding in those statistics either. As, kind of, public figures, you're meeting a whole lot of people in a whole lot of different places. I get a sense that there's a lot of negativity around, kind of, particularly around, kind of, um, trans communities at the moment. What's the feeling that you're picking up from communities when you speak to them? I'll, I'll start by saying that, actually, a lot of the vitriol, um, like, we [00:09:00] have to remember that overall, and pulse around different places, I've shown that an overwhelming majority of people support our trans community, and it is, and it is a, a very vocal, and, and unfortunately, yeah, dangerous minority who are, who are driving that hate, and it is dangerous because it, it does result in violence. But overall, my experience campaigning is that.. People do support our rainbow community and our trans community, and they want us to be focused on how we can enhance their rights and improve well being for everyone. [00:09:30] So it's not a thing that's coming out in the election campaign, but it is concerning to see more and more politicians who are acting irresponsibly and wanting to make it a focus of the campaign. And that is the main concern around the lack of political leadership who are tapping into a, um, a minority who wants to divide us. Um, I think as a trans candidate myself, like, campaigning out in the community, everyone just sees me as another candidate and, you know, supports or maybe doesn't support me because of the green values [00:10:00] rather than because of who I am inherently. I think some of that, um, hate and that harassment and that stuff has particularly been online. Um, and, you know, with. Some changes in the leadership of certain social media sites, um, has become not so good, um, but I think that unfortunately it is, um, yeah, that vocal minority, but also a lot of them who are actually from overseas who are attacking us, not necessarily people, um, here in Aotearoa itself. So why did you both get into politics? Um, I got interested in politics, um, kind of my whole life, but particularly [00:10:30] got involved to the Make It 16 campaign to lower the voting age, um, because I was really interested in voting and I wasn't going to be able to vote. Um, and thought that we should be expanding that, um, that franchise, um, and then kind of over time decided actually if I want to see people with similar backgrounds to me, um, values to me in politics that I'm going to have to stand up and do it myself as well. Hmm. Uh, there probably wasn't a singular moment in time that, um, got me involved, but I do have to credit, speaking of politicians, speaking of hatred, um, Winston Peters comments around migrant communities. [00:11:00] throughout the years, I think, really make me, uh, want to become involved because the way that he spoke about our communities as a migrant myself, um, did not reflect my realities. And I did, I did feel that, um, uh, it was important that our experiences were represented, but it was also just rising inequality, having worked in hospitality for many years, um, just that feeling that there [00:11:30] was. There was a feeling of uncertainty based on political decision when it came to climate as well. In terms of rainbow issues, what are the things, if you do get into Parliament, what are the things that you will be pushing for? If you get into Parliament, I'm already there, so I guess that feels like more for you. Well, I mean, for example, we recently did succeed in putting an amendment to better protect rainbow people as part of the sports integrity legislation. And, uh, what that will ensure is that rainbow people [00:12:00] are and are Better represented in decision making board. And so that's one element where I do think we can Continue improving upon but I think there's also more that we can do to resource access to health care And that needs to be across the whole of the range of health care that is gender affirming so primary care but also secondary care and improving the competency of our health care providers so that if they serve the the By various rainbow peoples that exist in Aotearoa.[00:12:30] I'm really keen for us to finally, um, be prohibiting the medical intervention for intersex infants and also supporting our intersex community, um, more widespread. Um, even though I'm not personally a part of that, um, throughout Mahi, within the rainbow communities and working for, and working kind of adjacent to some of those spaces at the moment. Um, it's really clear that it, like, they've been advocating for a long time and actually we just need to get on with it. Um, and support them in what they've specifically been calling for and total with that in Parliament as well. And just finally, if somebody couldn't be here tonight and [00:13:00] they are just feeling a bit got at because of all the kind of negativity at the moment in the media, do you have a message for them? We have to remember that there's more than unites us than divides us, and, and I guess from, from our end, just know that the Greens are, are, are with you, and that, um, despite the few political leaders who are being irresponsible and, and spewing hatred, that there's also people that have got your back, and including people who are coming to this [00:13:30] event tonight, and so we will be working very hard to ensure that, um, um, Aotearoa continues to be as safe and as safe as it can be for our, um, rainbow people. Yeah, I would say that, you know, the Greens have currently do and then will continue to be supporting our rainbow communities. Um, and not only in terms of like words and the things that we put it out of and our manifesto and that kind of thing, but we've got people who have those lived experiences among our candidates, among our campaigners. Um, and it's not. Just [00:14:00] about what's happening out there. It's what's happening to us too, and we're really, um, yeah, concerned, but also supporting and wanting to push forward in those spaces as well. My name is James Christmas. I'm running for the National Party. I'm on the list. I'm number 28, and I'm here tonight representing the party at the public service. It's an event run by the Public Service Association and Rainbow Wellington. It's an informal event so that people can meet candidates and we can just have a chat. Why was it important for you to be here tonight? It's quite important to me that the National Party is actually represented at these sorts of events. Um, [00:14:30] we, uh, we haven't traditionally had a high level of rainbow representation, uh, even though we have quite a few rainbow members of the party, so I'm quite keen to see that side of our party emphasised, and to make sure, uh, as our leader, Christopher Larkson, he, he's said he wants to increase diversity in our caucus, and he means it. And part of that is Rainbow Diversity, I think. So why, why do you think there hasn't been so much representation in the past? Do you know what, I'm not sure there's an easy answer for that. I mean, if you look back through our history as a party, you can look back to people like Marilyn Wearing, back right into the 70s. Um, [00:15:00] you've got people like, uh, uh, Ven Young, who was the former MP for New Plymouth, I think, First person to try to, um, decriminalise homosexual, uh, do the homosexual law reform in the seventies and he failed. So you've had a bit of a liberal strand running through the party, um, but for whatever reason rainbow people just haven't bubbled up through to the top. So they're represented quite well in the party, but we have historically not had high numbers at the parliamentary level. Um, so I'm hoping to come in so I can bring my expertise in the law treaty settlements, but if I can also help, uh, to put another notch [00:15:30] in the wall in this regard, then that's something I'm looking forward to doing. So, what drew you to politics? Uh, I've always sort of worked on the sideline of politics. I used to work for, um, Chris Finlayson, who was the Minister of Treaty Negotiations, and then I worked for John Key and, uh, Bill English. I guess I just, uh, you know, I worked with some pretty good people early in my career and people who sort of get things done. Uh, and one thing I think is sometimes we talk about things too much and should just do them. Uh, so you look at treaty settlements, I want to see treaty settlements finished. Uh, I want to see law reform carried out. I think good governments are reforming governments, and [00:16:00] sometimes that's just putting your foot on the accelerator and doing it. And in terms of, uh, rainbow issues, what do you think the biggest rainbow issues are at the moment? It's a really interesting question, I mean, if you look back over the last few years and you look at the victories we've had, you look at things such as, you know, marriage equality legislation, that went through, I think it's now largely accepted, um, it hasn't been one of those issues that's carried on, um, I think, um, I look at some residual law reform issues, the big one's probably adoption, um, so the Law Commission reported on [00:16:30] that a couple of years ago now, it's been with the government, uh, that act was passed in 1955. Um, so we're dealing with law that's nearly 70 years old, and we're trying to apply it to a, you know, a world now which is completely different. Um, laws like that, I think, uh, are spread across the statute books, and they put roadblocks in the way of people wanting to get on with their lives. And I think a good government's a reforming government. You need to look at those. to look, are they putting, you know, are they putting roadblocks in people's way? And if they are, you need to change them. When we look back at some of the earlier [00:17:00] politicians like Marilyn Waring and Chris Carter, they had a really rough time in Parliament as being out themselves. How do you think it will treat you? So I mean, I was born in 1985. So one year before. The, um, the homosexual law reform. So, I've always been conscious that I have been pretty lucky in terms of the generations that went before me. That they went through a lot, so I've had a pretty easy run. In historical terms, I've had a pretty easy run. Now, sure, there's challenges and all that sort of thing that go with it. Um, [00:17:30] I think our parliament now is quite a different place. I don't go in there with any feeling of concern in that regard. Um, I'm conscious I'd go in there as, um, if I'm elected I'll probably be the only openly gay National MP. Um, you know, sh That doesn't feel like as big a deal to me as maybe it would have 10, 20 years ago. Um, so I go in quite confident, uh, in that regard. But I also, this is if I get elected, I'm not, I don't want to sound too certain, go in quite confident in that regard, but I also go in, you know, with the knowledge of those people who have had to go through those [00:18:00] struggles before and some of the stuff. You know, Marilyn, where, and Chris Carter, you hear these stories, you hear what they had to deal with, and it's only 'cause they actually stood up for themselves through there that I get to go in, in this situation now. Yeah. So who are your political heroes? Uh, so my, I've, I've got a few political political heroes in, uh, the National Party. So there's one, there's the, the. My main one is a guy called Ralph Hannon who I'm writing a book about at the moment, I'm writing his biography, so I'm, I'm trying to write it in a, uh, I'm writing it as an historian, and, and being as neutral as I can, but I do admire the guy, so he was our Attorney [00:18:30] General from 1960 to 1972, CMP for Invercargill, He had a conservative upbringing down there, but for whatever reason, um, he decided that the law should be liberalised to help people live their lives. So he was the guy who got the capital punishment abolished in 1961, despite the majority of the National Party being against it. He fought through and he actually got 10 National MPs to defect, including Sir Robert Muldoon, and vote with him to get rid of capital punishment. Um, he was another one [00:19:00] who really wanted, uh, to get homosexual law reform. Form done early. Um, there's a letter from him actually in 1967, uh, when he wrote saying that it's actually not a criminal issue and if he could do anything about it, he would, his view at the time was it was too early for him to be able to get the votes. So I admire those people who have gone on with their principles, um, and have fought as hard as they can to get progress. And, and actually when you think about what was happening in the late sixties and early seventies, the National Party were quite in support of, of law reform, weren't they? [00:19:30] So it was a real, I mean, the Holyoke government was a really liberalising time in general, um, and I suppose, um, when we had a first go under Vin Young in, I think it was 1974 to do it, and that failed. Um, so it's quite an interesting point. I mean, it illustrates to me people can come on a journey. So even Keith Holyoke was the Prime Minister, you know, generally quite a conservative, populist guy. Hansard, it's really interesting, where he says, I've spent my whole life really against this. You know, [00:20:00] the view they used to have, you know, the, the view that this is not something that we really want to tolerate in society. And yet, in the last year or so, thinking about it, I've realized, who am I to judge? So, to me, people like Holyoake illustrate that a number of our friends and colleagues are actually on a bit of a journey. And if you look at the party itself, you know, you look at Homosexual Law Reform 1986, John Banks, uh, One of our MPs I mean, if you go through Hansard, railing against it, I mean, just terrible stuff. I mean, John Banks voted in favour of marriage equality in 2011, so he'd been on a journey of his own. [00:20:30] My old boss, Bill English, voted against marriage equality in civil unions. He said when he became Prime Minister that it had been a mistake. So, I suppose looking at those people and working with those people and knowing those people, it does build a bit of a tolerance in you that some people are making their own journey. to destination. Um, I've always hesitated to write people off for their views even if I don't agree with them. Yeah. Currently there's quite a lot of negativity, um, around, particularly around, kind of, transgender communities, uh, both here and overseas. [00:21:00] If somebody was listening to this and they couldn't be here tonight and they were just getting bombarded with all this negativity, uh, what would you say to them? I think what I'd say is that I want politicians, regardless of what party they're in, um, I mean, I come from a tradition of, you know, I'm an individualist. responsibility, personal freedoms and rights. I think anyone, and our leader said this really recently actually, Chris Philipson, got asked about, um, I mean we're seeing some parties at the moment like New Zealand First is trying to stir up and make political issues out of this, so the first thing we do is completely [00:21:30] reject turning people's lives and identity into culture wars. You've seen what that's happening in the United States. We're much more pragmatic than that, and I'd hate to see us go down that path. But what Luxon said is that he doesn't want any New Zealander to be in a situation where they can't live their lives authentically and free from discrimination, and that's where I'm at on that. I hate to see people's identities politicised in any way. Um, that's just completely counterproductive. Kia ora, my name is Glen Bennett and I am the Labour Party MP for New Plymouth. I'm here tonight at a joint event with, it's [00:22:00] Rainbow PSA and Rainbow Wellington. And it's the election special, so we've got representation from the Green Party, from the National Party and myself from the Labour Party. Why was it important to be here tonight? It's important because the rainbow issues, although we've come so far in it's 2023, there's a lot at stake this election. You look at our inclusion and diversity that's That's gone in leaps and bounds in recent years, but in many ways, you come to an election and you see some of the rhetoric, some of the division, some of [00:22:30] the, uh, dismantling of some of the systems, uh, that are really important for our rainbow communities. Uh, so it's important for me to be here tonight, and I think for other candidates to be here tonight, uh, to be able to share our visions, our views, uh, but also to talk about what's at stake in terms of, uh, post election, depending on who gets into power. And when you say dismantling, what's being dismantled? Well, you've got things like, if you look at some of the ACT Party policy, when it's things like the, uh, Ministry for Pacific People or the Women's Ministry, you look at, you know, the Human Rights Commission, [00:23:00] things like that, which, which you might say, well, that's not a rainbow space, but the Human Rights Commission definitely is. That's something we've had to fight hard to, to be in. So in terms of dismantling of those things, uh, they're a challenge. But in that, saying all of that, I'm really hopeful that, you know, we've done a lot in this term. Uh, you look at, uh, you, you look at the, um, the banning of conversion practices, you look at the births Deeds to marriages. The ability of people to change their gender on their birth certificate. You know, you can see all these amazing things happening. And so it's important for me to be here tonight to talk about what's been, [00:23:30] but to be hopeful about what's to come for our community. What has it been like being an out rainbow politician over the last term? It's, I'm, I live in New Plymouth, and I'm the MP for New Plymouth, and I remember my first thing when, um, I was asked to run for New Plymouth, I said, you know I'm gay, right? I thought, like, I felt like, you know, is New Plymouth too conservative to have a gay MP? Obviously they, they're not conservative, because they voted me in. It's, it's been, uh, it's been liberating, and it's been empowering. I got to get married. in Parliament [00:24:00] to marry my husband, uh, just after I got elected. And for me, that was a really symbolic, uh, and I think it set me up for my term as a Rambo MP because I was standing in Parliament, a place that for more than a hundred years had oppressed us, and was able to stand there and to marry the man I love. In the halls of Parliament was really empowering to me, and I think for the last three years that's been, uh, front and center of everything I've done and realizing there's a fight to go. Like I meet young people and children still and teenagers at high school in New Plymouth [00:24:30] that are still afraid to come out, that still don't have those networks and supports to help them. So it's, that's always front and center in my mind in terms of policy we do and decisions we make. So what are some of the biggest issues that, that, that people are talking to you about in terms of rainbow issues? Uh, very much obviously the trans, uh, discussion. Uh, whether it be toilets, whether it be sports, uh, it's how do we actually make sure we include our trans community. That is really big. Uh, and then the other one is, I guess is around, um, health. and [00:25:00] mental health, in terms of, again, statistically for our rainbow communities, for our young people, for our older people, our mental health, uh, is, statistically we're far higher than many others, so that's been something else that's often talked about. I'm glad we put 4 million into this space when it comes to mental health, when it comes to supporting things like, in, um, Inside out and rainbow youth to ensure that there are the support networks around to help particularly our young people What are you most proud of? [00:25:30] 100% it is the banning of conversion practices. So I come from the Christian world. I was I was blessed, fortunate enough not to have conversion practice performed on me, but the fact that we were able to go through that and we were able to stand tall and strong through what was the most submissions ever made for any piece of legislation in the history of the New Zealand Parliament. And there was so much, uh, There was so much hate and, uh, awful rhetoric and fear mongering from [00:26:00] that. But the flip side, there was so much inclusion and love and support. And, again, for myself coming from the Christian community, uh, to stand tall, uh, as someone in the rainbow community, to stand someone tall who's in a faith community, and to say, we can walk forward together. And we as government can legislate to ensure that no one ever has to go through that abhorrent practice ever again. That's my most proudest moment. When you hear some of the just really nasty, uh, stuff that's happening at the moment in terms of, uh, people talking about [00:26:30] transgender communities, and, and more broadly the rainbow communities, um, what do you say to somebody that is kind of.. You know, somebody, what do you say to somebody in the rainbow community that's kind of taking all that in and just, it's, it's, it's kind of inside them, like, like, like, how, do you have any words of encouragement, I guess I'm asking? We've come so far. I look back to my eight year old self, uh, and, you know, I, I, I remember homosexual law reform, and the victory roll, and [00:27:00] the, the awfulness and the challenge, but it was actually the solidarity, and, and the coming together of, Of a strong rambler community that ensured that legislation like homosexual law reform was passed, like marriage equality was passed, like we were able to ban conversion practices. Those are the things. So, find your community. Uh, I always say to people, turn off or don't look at your comments on social media. Um, find safe places to go. You don't have to put up with, uh, prejudice. You don't have to be put up with being [00:27:30] treated badly. But you just must find your community because your community is out there and they're looking for you. But you need to put your hand up so they can find you to support you. Um, kia ora tatou everyone. Uh, ko Michael Gibbs toku ingoa. I'm Assistant Secretary Strategy here at the PSA. You're very welcome here. Uh, this is a great event for us to host. It's one of many, um, election events that we're hosting up and down the Mōtū. So, uh, uh, we're very pleased to have you here. Um, we are not [00:28:00] 80, 000 strong. We're 90, 000 strong as of last month. So we're in, uh, Aotearoa's largest. and we have within that our PSA group which is currently around 2, 700 members. So, um, we're pleased to again have you here. This is a great opportunity for us to hear from some of the key candidates from, some of the candidates from the key parties standing at the general election this year and thank you very much to the candidates for your [00:28:30] attendance. We'll ask you to introduce yourselves. Um, and there'll be, uh, the candidates are going to speak to you, uh, about their policies. Hopefully there'll be some time for questions as well. We do know that some need to get away promptly at 7. 15. So, uh, that'll bring a nice close to, um, to our proceedings. Just to say that this is obviously a very important election for, uh, Um, and this is an important election for [00:29:00] everybody. Um, we've made a lot of progress over the last six years, particularly most recently with fair pay agreements, which is finally a chance to improve standards, terms and conditions. across sectors of workers, which is hugely important and a big gap in our industrial relations legislation. So we, we have our own campaign this election, which is around a fair and progressive Aotearoa that we, we, uh, invite you all to support. But, uh, most [00:29:30] importantly tonight, we're here to hear from, uh, the candidates from, uh, we have Labour. National and the Greens here this evening. So, so again, you're very welcome and I'll hand over to Craig from Rainbow, uh, Rainbow Wellington to introduce our candidates. Thank you so much Michael and thanks to the PSA for, uh, hosting tonight. Um, it's really important, um, so Rainbow Wellington is a, uh, it's been around since the 80s. It's taken different [00:30:00] forms, different, uh, different namings, um, but The history of our group is we were right there, um, back with Fran Wilden, um, when we started doing homosexual law reform, um, and so it's been around a long time, and, um, we did a bit of a rebrand two, three years ago, um, so we've developed a new logo, um, and a new kind of, um, co papa for our group, which is just We want to just connect, uh, Wellington's rainbow communities together. And so one of those things was, [00:30:30] um, how do we reach out to our, um, many, many queer folk who are working in Wellington? Um, and bring them together. And so professional networking is a, is something that came out of that as an idea. Um, so we now run these and we've been running these for two years, um, different, uh, different industries, different workplaces, and so, um, I'd encourage you to, if you, there's some of these around on the tables, um, please have a look at them, we have, we are a member, a member organization, um, And so we, like, an individual [00:31:00] membership fee is 50 a year. It lets you come along to these professional networking events. The funds from all of that go into a grants fund, so we, all of us are volunteers. Um, the, the, but the grants pay for things like we've, uh, funded the youth ball, the, um, and there's some stalls for out in the city. So it all goes back into the community, so it's a really fun way of, um, meeting new people, turning up, having a few drinks, having some nibbles. Um, meeting. Great people, people that you may not have met before, and then [00:31:30] also knowing that you're supporting financially, um, some of the communities that actually can't afford lots of things, lots of these things, so that's really great. So please have a look at one of these pamphlets or talk to some of the board members that are around here tonight if you want to know anything more about Rainbow Wellington. Um, yeah, we're, uh, we're involved in, in, in also lots of things, we, um, do a lot of campaigns, so we're really at the moment, um, talking to, uh, I suppose the transgender community, saying what are some of the things that [00:32:00] are most, most required for you, and we know that they're under a lot of pressure at the moment, um, with some of the rhetoric coming out of the states, and so we really want to try and support that and do what we can, um, and, and a number of the things we do, um, um, Is to put the pressure on the, on the, um, on our MPs. So we do a lot of work with MPs in Parliament. We do a lot of work putting in submissions. Um, so please do, do speak to us if there's things that, um, you want to see changed around your city. We meet with the Mayor quarterly. [00:32:30] Um, so we do get, we get involved in lots of things and we, we get, you know, we're privileged to get access to a lot of the key, some of the key movers and shakers around Wellington. Um, so, if you're not here to listen to me, so I'll introduce you now to the candidates. Do you want to come up and join me, Glen, Ricardo, James? Um, great. So, what I might do first of all, um, what I want to do, I've, I've, I've got one question to ask them, uh, which I'll ask them in a minute. Um, I'll ask them to introduce themselves. Um, but what I want [00:33:00] you guys to be thinking about is that we're going to throw it open to you. We want you to ask questions, right? This is, um, and we're going to work in the popcorn way, so we don't know when popcorn pops. You just stick your hand up and ask a question. Don't even stick your hand up if you want to, just yell it out. It's quite alright. We're all relaxed around here. Um, but, um, what I'll do is I'll get you to, James, and you can start this. Just introduce yourself if you don't mind. A little bit about where you come from, um, would be great, so yeah, over to you. Okay, um, [00:33:30] well, uh, my name is James Christmas. I have the weirdest last name of any candidate, um, standing for election. Unfortunately, I'm not standing for a seat, I'm just on the list, so my name isn't actually on any, um, billboards. I'm standing for the National Party, I'm number 28, uh, on our list. This is my first campaign. Uh, I'm a lawyer based in Auckland, but I spent the first 10 years of my life down here as a, uh, public servant. Uh, so I spent a lot of my early career working for, uh, Chris Finlayson as Treaty Minister. Uh, and then I worked for John Key, uh, Bill English, did a bit of [00:34:00] legal work at some ministries and then headed off as a barrister. So I'm hoping, uh, if I am elected, uh, to Parliament, uh, one of the things I'm looking forward to is getting back down here to Wellington, uh, and being able to work with our, um, public servants again. Because I was very lucky early in my career to work with some of our best public servants. And that's where I learned really what I do. Huge respect for our public service and for the innovation that comes from our public service. And, uh, if I look back at some of the greatest achievements with treaty settlements, the genesis of [00:34:30] all those ideas came from people working in government departments. So, that's really important to me. Um, I want a productive relationship with public servants, uh, and a respectful relationship. Uh, should I return to other stuff later? Uh, yeah, yeah. Okay, I'll shut up now. Thank you. Welcome. Ah, kia ora koutou. Ko Glen Bennett tōku ingoa, and I am the Labour Party MP for the beautiful city of New Plymouth. Which stretches from Waitara in the north and all the way around to Opunaki, uh, around the coast there. Uh, this is my first term as an MP, [00:35:00] and looking forward to, uh, kicking off my second term in six weeks time. Fingers crossed. Um, I just want to acknowledge.. Um, in terms of the representation on our panel this evening. Uh, and although, um, there's three guys up here, just want to, uh, acknowledge, obviously, the diversity of this room and the div diversity of our rainbow whanau. Uh, and you look at Parliament, we are the most, uh, diverse rainbow Parliament in the world right now. And we're also 50%.. Uh, [00:35:30] male and female, and that's very much thanks, um, you know, I'll say the Labour Party, but let's say team effort, team, team effort from, from this side of the house. Uh, but for me, myself, uh, looking at a place like New Plymouth, you may think it is just this little tumbleweed town, uh, on the west coast of, of New Zealand. Uh, what possibly could, uh, how could they possibly elect a queer MP? Uh, but they did. Uh, because there are many roads that lead to Taranaki when it comes to, uh, issues, uh, of, of our rainbow communities. Uh, you look [00:36:00] back to the 1920s.. And our prison, uh, in New Plymouth was sanctioned through law here, uh, at Parliament just down the road for, uh, for the homosexuals, uh, and for the deviants. And that's where hard labour, they were, had hard labour there in New Plymouth through law made in this place here in Wellington. Um, secondly, uh, the first, uh, person to die of AIDS in New Zealand, uh, was from New Plymouth, uh, in 1984. Uh, and it's a horrific story, uh, in terms of, of, of the challenges we had. [00:36:30] Uh, at that time, and I think still we do have around prejudice, uh, but in New Plymouth. So there's, there's many connections and places, and often people say to me, why do you still wear the rainbow badge, or why do you still sort of speak so strongly about rainbow issues? And that is because we still have a lot of work to do. Uh, when I go to our high schools, uh, when I'm out and about in New Plymouth, uh, there's still fear, there's still prejudice, uh, there's still, uh, there's, there's still treatment, uh, of many of our communities, uh, that isn't okay. I'm a member of the Labour Party because [00:37:00] as an eight year old, I remember, um, going through the process of homosexual law reform, not knowing what was going on within my own internal self, but knew something wasn't right in terms of what was going on externally, not internally. Uh, and then again, when it comes to things like marriage equality, when it comes to those types of things, the Labour Party has always been at the forefront of diversity and change. And so I look forward to continuing to serve. And open up the spaces and places that we can live our best lives and the next [00:37:30] generations coming through. Uh, don't have to go through what many of us in this room have been through. Kia ora. Um, kia ora koutou. My name is Ricardo Menendez March and I'm your, uh, one of your Green MPs and I'm your Rainbow spokesperson for the Green Party. I'm based in Tamaki Makaurau, Auckland, and I'm a migrant from, uh, Mexico as well. It's been a pleasure to serve as a Green MP this term, and what I've gotten to see in my time in Parliament has been that while we do have the queerest and most, uh, [00:38:00] I guess that's when we use, like, gender binary balance, like, um, uh, there's still a lot to do. Um, and why I'm in the Greens is because It's at a time when hate towards migrant communities and rainbow communities, we have the tidiest and cleanest track record and voting in parliament for the rights of rainbow communities. And I think that sets the foundations really, really strongly, um, for us to continue that Mahi. And for me as an MP, it's all about making sure that we're working at the [00:38:30] intersections of different communities and, uh, acknowledging that, um, there is diversity within our rainbow communities and, um, and that we get to have, for example, um, And the Greens, well, we may have, uh, like, we started a term with like 40% queer people. We get to have, um, openly non binary or trans people in our caucus, and so there's more work that we can do. Um, but I think what I'm really proud that we've been able to do in this term of parliament has been to also, um, Put pressure on our Labour colleagues, um, to improve the [00:39:00] rights of, uh, rainbow athletes, and particularly at a time where hatred towards trans athletes is rising, um, I was really stoked that we were able to, um, strengthen some legislation around that. And so keen to continue that, Mahi, and this election's going to be really, really important because we have a few political leaders who are stoking the fires of hatred and fear. But I know there's more of us and there's more than unites and divides us. And I think the trade union movement and our community organizations to serve the remote communities are in a good position, um, to ensure that we continue having [00:39:30] a progressive government. Thank you. Right. Thank you very much. Um, we're just going to turn up the temperature a little bit and ask you some questions. Um, Gareth is sitting down here and he's recording everything, and I, and I like this because it goes on public record, right, so we can, we can go back to the website, we can find out what you said and hold you to account, so this is good. Um, so one of the questions that I think is there are, um, there are lots of things that we think, uh, are issues for the LGBT community, and, [00:40:00] and you guys are potentially going to be our leaders, um, representing us in Parliament. So I'd like, um, for you, and maybe we'll start with you, Ricardo, and we'll come back this way. But what are the, what are the, what are the top, top issue or the top thing that is in your mind? for the LGBT community, and if you're re elected, what are you going to do? That's a big one, but I think, I mean, like I said, I'm, I'm really concerned about the increased visibility of hateful rhetoric towards, um, our trans community, [00:40:30] and I think part of, um, what we need to do is to.. do is a range of interventions around having fit for purpose hate speech legislation that includes our rainbow people, um, having, for example, in this, in the realm of sports competency around, um, rainbow people resourcing our rainbow organizations will also be key to that because they're the ones who are at the forefront doing that mahi and they're doing it on the smell of an oil rack and there's far more we central government can do to support our rainbow organization. So I think Um, Prioritizing the groups that are [00:41:00] currently feeling, um, the hatred, I think is key to ensuring that we're actually serving, um, all of our member community. It's interesting, and thanks Michael and Craig for hosting us tonight, and everyone here. Um, but Michael, you mentioned around, you know, the, the trade union movement and, you know, workers rights in terms of what's at risk this election. Uh, but also I think very much it's around diversity, uh, and it's around, uh, inclusion. And I think that's really, I think what Ricardo [00:41:30] refers, you know, sort of alluded to in terms of for myself, uh, how do we continue to build diversity? Uh, I've thought a lot about, uh, what it would mean, uh, in terms of, of having a, a rainbow. We, we throw things around like a Rainbow Commissioner, or a Rainbow Ombudsperson, or we throw the thing around, or a ministry, but I actually don't think, I actually don't think a ministry would be right, personally. I'm trying to figure out how it could be. Where we have some kind of rainbow representation across all government agencies and departments. Uh, how that could actually, uh, be checking over, [00:42:00] double checking what comes through. Um, when it goes upwards and when it comes downwards through that. Um, I haven't landed on yet how it could be. I need to think about it over the next six weeks. Nothing much else to do. Um, so, I will continue to think on that. But I really am strongly about how do we ensure those rainbow voices. are there because it is around the diversity, inclusion, and bringing those on the margins in. And often, um, yeah, for me it's how do we actually support that, how do we fund that, um, but how do we be creative about how it looks? Um, well [00:42:30] this answer might be a bit dry, um, I'm quite, I'm a lawyer, I'm quite interested in law reform. Um, I think we've got a lot of law reform that could be done on a pretty non partisan basis. Uh, the major example for me is the Adoption Act. Uh, 1955, Law Commission's looked at that about two or three years ago now. I really want us to put our feet down on, foot down on the accelerator, is that the metaphor? And actually just get some of this stuff done. I mean, the Law Commission looks at these issues, they receive a lot of submissions, and I acknowledge Rainbow Wellington as well, and the submissions you make to select committees, [00:43:00] which are really important. I really want us to have a good look at the statute book. We're governed by so many old laws, I mean you go back to Covid, those initial lockdown orders were made under the Health Act 1956, no wonder it got a bit messy. Go back through, look at where the barriers are, the barriers in legislation that have put it, you know, when we go through a 1950s lens, which wasn't necessarily looking at two dads or two mums or whatever, why is it still there? I want us to go through, almost take a stock tape. Go through, find the barriers and get rid of them. And that's solid law reform work to it. [00:43:30] Yeah, great answers, thank you. Um, okay, so, have you guys, has people out, anyone got out here um, questions, are we preparing questions? Simon? I've got a question, it's not really Rambo regarded, it's more about, um, Small community, local, uh, media outlets and radio, uh, what do you know of them and what would you do to support them? I'm happy to start. So I was prodding, um, Willie Jackson, actually, the Social Services and Community Select Committee around this. I think we could, [00:44:00] central government could resource them better. And having worked with, um, Planet FM, for example, and other radio stations, um, including, like, Coming from the Latino community, like, I acknowledge that for smaller communities, they actually play a key role in, in, um, disseminating information, particularly in non English languages, and, like, with many organizations, they do it on the smell of oil dragons, so I think, um, Changing the funding, like, reviewing the funding mechanisms is key and that's something the Green Party has supported for quite some time.[00:44:30] Because we do believe in strong public media and community radio stations, including student media, plays a massive role in that. And we continue to invest heavily in Access Radio across New Zealand, which I know very much can be niche and that type of thing. I think in the last three years what you saw with the 50 million that went into, um, particularly local democracy reporting, has actually been significant. Uh, and is actually, I think, like, for example, in New Plymouth, we now have a local democracy reporter. Their one job is to report local democracy, which is, you [00:45:00] know, what's on the tin and what's in the packets, all the same. And I think that, that's actually shown that it actually can work. Um, that fund has now ended, so what is it, can we, what is it we can be doing around funding, um, Taranaki. Uh, where we are smaller, uh, and you turn on the radio on Wednesday morning in your car, and you basically are listening to Auckland or Wellington. Um, how do you actually, how do we actually change the nature of that, uh, and I think something like that local democracy reporting and other funds would actually support that.[00:45:30] Uh, well I mean, I am just a reasonably low ranked list candidate, and I've been warned that if I start announcing policy on the hoof, it's a good way to end my career before it starts. But we, we will have a broad.. I didn't announce any policy, Well, I mean, we will have a full broadcasting policy out before the election, but let, let me say, and, and speaking in general.. Uh, terms, you'll see no disagreement from me about the importance of local reporting, especially, and I come back to the legal side, uh, when you look at reporting on [00:46:00] issues that won't necessarily pull in all the apps, you know, like we, we need what's happening in our courts, in the, in the local papers, we, we need, we need, uh, local, well funded local radio stations. I mean, all I would say is that speaking from my position of no influence over this area at all, uh, I would certainly. favour, uh, a system which takes full account of the importance of local media. Great, thank you. I saw another question, yeah. Called Sarah Toke Engua. So you've mentioned working with [00:46:30] schools and both athletes, but is there initiatives or talk about the minority rainbow group, such as the homelessness, Pacifica and Māori? I think, yeah, worth, worth acknowledging that, um, our rainbow community, and then if you do intersections between like, um, Takatapui and, um, Pacific Rainbow groups, like they are disproportionately affected by homelessness. I know Marama has been working to, um, [00:47:00] as part of her home associate, um, housing role to try and divert some funds to organizations that may work specifically with rainbow people. I think a huge part of that is also about. reforming the welfare system. And I acknowledge that, for example, within MSD, there's been some efforts and some spaces to create greater competency. And it's about building upon that, because there's things like the way that, um, even we have our relationship rules in the work and the income support system that I think actually are anti queer in many ways [00:47:30] and, uh, box people in incredibly heteronormative, uh, ways of living. And so I think this interventions we could do in the income support system while also just beefing up the work that community organizations are doing on the ground to, um, create competency within the public service. And as what's been said, yeah, work with Marama Davidson around that, particularly the homelessness action plan, uh, around acknowledging in terms of, you know, rainbow young people are particularly high in terms of homelessness. Um, secondly, last year we put in, I think it was just over 4 million, uh, in [00:48:00] funding into our school system around and side out. Uh, and Rainbow Youth, uh, and Taranaki again, sorry to keep talking about Taranaki, but it's a really cool place, come and visit sometime. Um, and it's, uh, again, to support actually the work on the ground working, um, at the Coalface with, you know, young takatapoi, uh, trans, non binary, intersex, uh, and our gay and queer community. So there is work being done in that space, uh, and there's.. Um, I mean, look, totally acknowledge the [00:48:30] importance of that. It's all very well talking about these issues in the round from, from, from Wellington, but if we actually want to get results on the ground, we have to work with the people who are at the, the cold face, work with the NGOs, the people who know the challenges that people are facing. Uh, so I think you will see, uh, from us, if we are in, you will see a, uh, more of a, an emphasis on working with those NGOs, um, I'm not going to bore you all going on about our social investment approach, but actually looking at the data on the ground, looking at who you're dealing with as people and trying to target those, those results, so I totally accept [00:49:00] your point. that we need to know the challenges that are being faced by people on the ground. James, I'll just, um, point out one thing. So today I received a phone call from somebody who was wanting to move somebody to Wellington and they were a transgender person with some, um, mental, mental health issues and, and I was trying to think who are the people on the ground and the problem is that they're so under resourced they don't even have a phone number. And They don't answer your Facebook pages. They've got nothing. So [00:49:30] you you're gonna try and find the people on the coalface. They're not there. They need resourcing first to actually make them be there. Um, so I you know and you're gonna go out and you're gonna try and find these people to talk to they're not there. Because they're too busy working their asses off trying to trying to help the people that they can they need a resourcing first And then you can make them. Got it. Totally hear that. Any other people got a question? Yeah, Joe. So this is around surrogacy in New Zealand, which might not be [00:50:00] queer related, but it does affect a lot of queer people who want to have children. Um, so New Zealand's surrogacy laws do not currently recognise the intended parents of a child as the legal parents. There's a whole legal battle and everything that goes on. Um, so they actually have to adopt the baby after it's born. So, as um, Justice Minister Kiri Allan has said, this process is discriminatory, uh, causes unnecessary harm, and stress, and reflects how outdated the system is. Is there anything that's going to be done to [00:50:30] fix that for anyone, including queer people who want to become queer? Yes, and the work is being done right, well the House has just risen this afternoon, but the, so Tamati Coffey had a members bill, uh, completely around this, uh, this piece of legislation that has to change, and must change, um, head to go and adopt. His own baby a month ago, uh, back in the Rotorua. Uh, the awesome thing is that, yeah, we've now picked it up. So now it's government, uh, legislation we're working through. So it's currently sitting, uh, I was on the health select committee [00:51:00] recently, and we had a conversation about it when it was Tamati had it, but it's now come through as a government piece, and so the Health Committee will continue that work, and so it will be passed into law, um, as long as, uh, that Labour is in government in the next term. And it's halfway there, so we're really close to it happening. But I hope we can get cross party support, eh? Of course! Of course! Um, no disagreement for me, I mean, that's the sort of thing I want to look at, I mean, why should the law discriminate in that regard?[00:51:30] Yeah, I just, you mentioned about looking at people who write policies, so across the public service where queer is being considered and I'm just wondering whether you guys have heard of the cross agency rainbow network and whether tapping into that Has come across your mind. I mean, as an MP, for example, I mean, I do, especially in the Rainbow portfolio, I do try to tap into as many [00:52:00] groups as I can, I think. But to the earlier point around setting a ministry, like our position is that we do need a ministry that serves specifically the needs of Rainbow people. And why I was disagreeing a bit with what Glenn was saying is that, I mean, we do have ministries for other population groups. And it is about having that designated structure that can then actually work across. Um, other parts of the public sector to just have that lens applied. Yes, we could be building greater competency across the, like, you know, the public service, but it's. In my view, it will never be as strong as [00:52:30] building the in house structure. But yeah, keen to engage with that network as much as we can. Acknowledging I carry like ten plus portfolios. I went to, recently, to the first, um, It was the first Pride at MSD event. They had a full day training and it was their first time, you know, MSD, Ministry of Social Development, had built this part of their group. So I think.. Yes, um, can I talk to you afterwards just to kind of find out a bit more, and so we can kind of lock that [00:53:00] in. Yeah, I mean, I've been out of Wellington for the last few years, I'm not across the work that's been done, but certainly interested in hearing more about it. Great, thank you. Um, one of the things there, there, there around, um, Um, they're around here for another, at least another half an hour, um, and I want to give you the opportunity to kind of have a good conversation with them before they run away. Um, has anyone got a burning question that they, they must ask or can they just ask it to them direct? Yes. [00:53:30] For our national, um, candidate, um, with kind of recent talk of, um, of potential coalition partners at, or New Zealand First and their kind of homophobic, transphobic dog whistling thing. Is that something of concern to you? I mean, I think the first thing I'd say is, I mean, I'm only able to talk in my capacity as a National MP, right? So, I mean, we all see what's being said by different parties. We're all going to have our views on those. Potentially very strong views on them. [00:54:00] Uh, all I can tell you is that, for me as a National candidate, and also for our leader, Christopher Luxon, who was the one who encouraged me to stand, Uh, you will see an absolute commitment against any of that rhetoric, and you will see an absolute commitment that we don't want to see this country, uh, turn into a situation like we've got in the States, with people's identities being caught up in culture wars. Uh, yep, completely aware of the concerns about what some other parties are saying, uh, but, you know, I can only, I can only plough on as a national [00:54:30] candidate. Can I just add onto that, because I mean, just, um, you may need to talk to some of your current MPs. When we were going through the sports integrity legislation, I mean, it was really concerning, right, that like. There were sitting National MPs who were pandering to the, um, transphobic rhetoric and I think to me what it is really important is, and I hear you, you know, take your point about it as an individual, you've announced that, but it does need to come at a political leadership, um, level and, and I do want to say that it is It's like, it is one of those things [00:55:00] that one of the most meaningful thing a political leader can do is just actively denounce it, um, and, and because otherwise we're just ceding space to the hater generic. And I do want to say that polls around the world do show that there are minority of people, but the more political leaders. Seed space, the more that hate can grow. Um, so yeah, I encourage you to talk to Louis Upton, um, and Melissa Lee potentially around some of this . Um, yeah. . Um, before we get into a bit more of a debate than we want to, I just wanna say thank you very much. Um, [00:55:30] James, I've been doing these sort of events for, as I said, four, five years political events. Mm-hmm. , and this is the first time someone from National's showing up. So, can I, can I say one quick thing on that? Yeah. So can I say it is really important for me that the, the National Party of, and look, I've been a member of the National Party since I was a teenager. I was a nerd at school and I liked Jenny Shipley for whatever reason, . So, um, it was basically pull me in, but so many jokes I know , um, that it is important to me that national is here. And, um, I think that. Yes, um, I hear what everyone else is saying, [00:56:00] but at the same time, I want, uh, people to know that if there is a national government in, that at least people can see themselves represented, uh, somehow in there. Um, we should be turning up at these things. Uh, I acknowledge that we haven't done amazingly, uh, with the rainbow representation in the past. Um, I just got asked before, I was trying to work out who we had. You can talk about Marilyn Wearing, you can talk about my old boss, uh, Finlayson, you can talk about Paul Foster Bell who's here in Wellington Central. Um, the party itself, uh, especially with our younger members, we have a [00:56:30] number of rainbow, rainbow community coming through. Uh, but as a, one thing really, uh, that made me decide to throw my hat in the ring, having said I'd never ever go into Parliament, and made this uncomfortable step of going from the back room to standing in front of you, um, is that that's important to me. Because I don't want us to be sitting out there left behind by the, as the world moves on. So all I can do is turn up and listen. Great, thank you. Um, and, and to Glenn and Ricardo, you guys have been holding this space and fighting, and, and so I, I, you know, [00:57:00] um, am really thankful. We had, we had an event at, um, in the Rainbow Room, and I remember the, you know, just reflecting on all of the MPs who are current and thinking, wow, this is fantastic that we've got this massive group. Um, and so thank you for what you've done for us in the last, um, in the last term and, you know, wish you all the best, wish all of you all the best for the election. Um, Yeah, but thank you very much to you two particularly for fighting for us. So yeah, thank you. Can we give them a round of applause?[00:57:30] So I am a policy advisor with the PSA and I've also been for the last little while organizer of Out At PSA. Which is the network for LGBT plus people within the PSA. Um, and we're at a joint, out at PSA, Rainbow Wellington, drinks, meet the candidates, type event. Um, just before election 2023. Why was it important for out at PSA to organise an event like this? Often times union work is very much about, you know, [00:58:00] fighting for things that you are under threat about or, you know, being Um, trying to achieve social change, which can be quite serious. And so, sometimes it's nice to just socialize. Also, nice to be able to build relationships with other organizations within the kind of LGBT community. Because, um, I think, you know, like, talking to people here today kind of made me realize, oh, we could be sharing stuff in terms of submissions we write, and that kind of thing. Um, so that we're all kind of stronger [00:58:30] in supporting each other. And you don't form those kind of relationships unless you have events I, I was, I was really impressed to see, um, the three candidates. So we had a Greens, we had a Labour, and we had a National. And just thinking, you know, like, maybe 15, 20 years ago, it would have been very hard to be an out MP, but, but now it seems a lot more, um, available as a, as a kind of career, yeah? Yeah, so, yeah, most, um, rainbow friendly parliament ever, right? Well, not rainbow [00:59:00] friendly, but like, the most rainbow MPs in a parliament, so. I guess, yeah, that would have been unthinkable a couple of decades ago. Um, I hope it stays that way. Or, you know, we get even more representation because, um, I always thought that this kind of progress was a given because it's always been like that throughout the time that I've been out myself. Um, but the last year or so and seeing events overseas made me realize that it's actually not a given. It's not always progress in one [00:59:30] positive direction. It can actually just all.. Fall apart. And so I think, yeah, so I think it's, I'm really hopeful that the next parliament is looking like the current one in terms of representation, yeah. So in terms of your, uh, out at PSA membership, have you, have you, um, sensed that there is a bit of a, um, a feeling of apprehension in terms of the negativity that's happening at the moment? Yeah. Yeah, our committee met just last week and that was one [01:00:00] of the things we kind of talked about is that kind of rising climate of tension and Yeah, just kind of hate everywhere. We also, like we had someone from Inside Out come to talk to us and they talked about how they had just, you know, been getting more and more abuse and kind of threatening stuff in their email inbox all the time. You know, it definitely seems like it's on the rise. So what do you think can be done about it, particularly like from organizations like OutUp PSA? [01:00:30] I think, uh, not standing for it. I guess being loud and outspoken and not just trying to be respectable and hope that if you're respectable enough people will keep being nice to you. You know, like I think, um. From what I see overseas, there's, uh, it seems like, you know, there's a, the people who want to be respectable and have the approval of straight people are [01:01:00] willing to throw other parts of our community under the bus, um, and it won't save them in the end. So I think for, you know, it has to be the entire community all sticking together and showing solidarity. IRN: 3641 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/insideout_koaro_navigating_the_hate.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: InsideOUT Kōaro - Navigating the hate USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: River Ayto; Tabby Besley INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 2020s; ACT New Zealand; Aotearoa New Zealand; Brian Tamaki; COVID-19 (coronavirus); COVID-19 denial; COVID-19 lockdown; Chantelle Baker; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC); Destiny Church; Drag Storytime; Family First NZ; Freedoms New Zealand; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); General election; General election (2023); Gloria (Greymouth); InsideOUT Kōaro; John Money; Manawatu Lesbian and Gay Rights Association (MALGRA); Michael Wood; National Schools Pride Week; NetSafe; New Conservative Party; New Zealand First; New Zealand Labour Party; Official Information Act (OIA); Posie Parker; Posie Parker counter protest; Rainbow Youth (Tauranga); River Ayto; Sam Duckor-Jones; Sean Plunket; Tabby Besley; Telegram Messenger; The Disinformation Project; The Platform; The Warehouse; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Transgressive transitions (research, 2023); United Kingdom; United States of America; Vision NZ; Walt Disney Company; Wellington; Winston Peters; access to health care; anti-COVID 19 vaccination; broccoli tattoo; conspiracy; discrimination; disinformation; drag; education; election; facebook. com; fascism; free speech; funding; gender diversity; gender education; gender identity; gender ideology; groomer; indoctrination; internet; marriage equality; misinformation; police; puberty blockers; public toilet; queer joy; queer straight alliance (QSA); reproductive rights; rural; school; school curriculum; social media; sport; trans; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; twitter. com; youth DATE: 29 August 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: InsideOUT Kōaro, Anvil House, Level 3/138 Wakefield Street, Te Aro, Wellington CONTEXT: Tabby Besley and River Ayto talk about the rise of hatred directed towards InsideOUT Kōaro and rainbow communities, since the visit of Posie Parker to Aotearoa in March 2023. In the interview, River refers to The Disinformation Project's research paper Transgressive transitions. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Kia ora, I'm Tabby Besley. I'm the Managing Director here at Inside Out Koaro. We're a national charity with a vision for all rainbow young people to have a sense of safety and belonging in their schools and communities. Kia ora, my name is River Ato. Um, I am the communications coordinator here at Inside Aotearoa. So this interview has been inspired, well I'm not sure if the word inspired is the right word, but um, there has been um, quite a significant increase in kind of anti rainbow sentiment in [00:00:30] Aotearoa New Zealand over the last six months to a year. And so I thought this would be a great opportunity for us to um, just talk about that and how that's affected. And I'm wondering, um, initially, uh, can you describe when you first became aware of the kind of ramping up of negativity? Um, yeah, I think in general, um, alongside the COVID pandemic, and I guess the, the sort of rise in kind of disinformation, [00:01:00] um, uh, online, particularly around, um, the vaccine and mandates, there was already a kind of coalescing of, um, kind of transphobic and anti rainbow, anti trans points of view within those communities. But I think that, um, uh, following The kind of dropping of the mandate and the parliamentary protests, the arrival of Posey Parker to Aotearoa earlier this year, um, really, um, uh, coalesced [00:01:30] that those communities, uh, people who had been impacted by kind of disinformation and those kind of anti vaccine, um, movements, um, around, uh, this kind of imported, uh, cultural targeting, targeting. transgender and rainbow people. Um, so yes, a particular increase in that kind of content and harassment targeting our communities following her arrival in Aotearoa, um, over the, the, the weeks and months following. But [00:02:00] yes, more broadly throughout the kind of course of the pandemic. Yeah, I think particularly last year, we started to see more kind of headlines and things happening like the, um, the arson of Rainbow Youth and, um, the graffiti on, um, Gloria, which is, um, the pink church, um, in Greymouth, um, by artist Sam Ducker Jones, who's actually now on our team as well, which is very cool. Um, . So yeah, we started to see that. And obviously the increase, um, particularly in the UK and the us, um, around [00:02:30] anti rainbow and trans and drag kind of laws and, um, the kind of turf transexclusionary, radical feminist, um, I don't know the, I don't wanna say movement, I don't wanna call it that, but you know, like the, the firing up of that. But it was, Yeah, for us specifically in terms of when we started to be targeted, it really was in March, um, when just pretty much that week that Posey Parker came and then for kind of the months following. Yeah, and I think that [00:03:00] that in part results from the fact that we, I guess, I played a public role in trying to challenge the immigration minister's decision to allow posy Parker into the country. So we are part of that judicial review process, but then also, you know, made an effort to really support and uplift our communities during that time period. Um, and that garnered a lot of attention on social media. And I guess also naturally because of our work in schools and with young people, um, we're kind of [00:03:30] uniquely vulnerable to, to the kind of cultural war. Talking points that, that are fear mongering about, um, kind of quote unquote gender ideology in schools. And so all that kind of heinous accusations of indoctrination and, um, the impact of our work on, on young people kind of made us a prime target, I think. So you mentioned two physical examples of, um, the arson and the defacing. And I'm wondering, can you take it a step back further [00:04:00] and, and think about the, the kind of, um, online. Um, amount of negativity. Could you see a rise in that prior to those physical attacks? Personally, at least from the lens of Inside Out, until March, we pretty much have never experienced any hate or harassment online. Very, you know, it's 11 years and I've been here that whole time, dealing with it most of the time. And that's, it's.. [00:04:30] I, you know, I can't think of any examples of how rare it would have been. Like, there was one time where I got an email, I think, I can't remember the detail, um, and it became a media story because actually the person who sent it from their work email was like a real estate agent and he'd seen me on TV and called me a faggot or something like that. Like, It's, it was so rare and then from March it became like just an overwhelming amount and kind of daily. I think more broadly for our communities definitely we've seen that rise in transphobia in [00:05:00] particular online over the last few years. Yeah. I mean, I know that we've also been targeted by, um, TERFs in Aotearoa with sort of kind of malicious OIA requests regarding our kind of work in schools. Um, but I guess, yeah, the kind of the growth of, um, kind of, yeah. The growth and presence of TERFs, um, online, and I guess internationally, because of the ways that the internet is so global, um, and so kind of interconnected, [00:05:30] I mean, obviously, with the rise of, of those kind of, yeah, yeah, the kind of global transphobia that was definitely impacting, um, Our communities here in Aotearoa in online space. Um, but I think that a lot of that came sort of internationally, um, rather than locally. So, so do you think it was, um, kind of initiated internationally or is it just that the international material is feeding into what was already here. I think both. Um, obviously if [00:06:00] you look into the, the kind of, the money behind people like Posey Parker, we're looking at, you know, CPAC and big conservative, um, kind of lobbies and organizations in the United States. Um, there's definitely like a lot of money in general behind the kind of, the, the rise in sort of, Transphobic, um, kind of legislation and politics in the United States. I mean, there've been various leaks of, of, of email showing that this was like a coordinated effort to, to make this a kind of key wedge issue, um, over the past few years. But [00:06:30] I think that, yeah, here in El Tirodor, yeah, it's, it's probably connected with the kind of, Yeah, more of the kind of conspiracy theory space of people who are already kind of vulnerable to beliefs about kind of, um, dark forces at play in the society. Um, and I guess, you know, being primed with, with that already being in community often, you know, Facebook groups or kind of telegram channels, et cetera, where people are kind of sharing that stuff. I [00:07:00] guess that that sort of probably bled in a bit more organically, but it's also true that there have been kind of, um, actors who have specifically coordinated, I guess, perhaps taking it and are taking advantage of that, you know, Brian Talmachy and Destiny Church being one example, Sean Taubaker, Sean Plunkett, other people in the kind of broader far right Disinformation space. And then obviously now Winston Peters, New Zealand first and the ACT party, um, as well, [00:07:30] kind of courting those communities. So I guess where my point of view would be that there's a kind of, yeah, there's international money and sort of quite organized campaigns to make this a issue that have been imported here, both organically and deliberately. And then You know, there are political actors and people who, who see that, yeah, this is potentially a source of mobilization, um, for various reasons. [00:08:00] So in terms of who is being targeted, in, in terms of the communities, are, are there specific parts of the communities that are being targeted, or is it a kind of a more of of rainbow targeting? Definitely. Trans people, trans women, are more targeted particularly with conversations at the moment around like, um, trans women's participation in sports, um, whether trans women should be allowed to use women's toilets, these kinds of [00:08:30] things. Um, often, often that's the center of the conversation. So, yeah, so definitely, um, trans women and trans people. Um, Drag has been a big, big target, particularly, um, you know, there's been events disrupted where people are doing drag story times. We held a drag artist panel that was, um, yeah, received a lot of, um, attention, negative attention, those kinds of things. But it does expand to our broader rainbow communities as well. And a lot of the, [00:09:00] a lot of the stuff coming to Inside Out is some of it. is around us as an organization. There's a lot of, um, you know, the same kinds of language and things that was used against people, to the best of my knowledge, during the homosexual law reform being used, um, to describe anyone connected to our organization and, um, the, yeah, the work that we do with schools and young people in particular. So, um, yeah, I'd say definitely there's specific targets, but [00:09:30] it does affect everyone more broadly too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that, yeah, the kind of tropes that we're seeing recycled have definitely been historically deployed, you know, in the United States and in Aotearoa, you know, around the kind of Section 28 stuff in the UK. Um, yeah, and it's definitely not limited to trans people, but I think that these, yeah, the kind of.. people stoking these fears and [00:10:00] targeting trans people have the broader aim of kind of expanding and targeting our communities and we're already sort of seeing that as kind of trans trans rights and sort of access to health care are being targeted and um, banned and rolled back in the United States. We're also seeing like the rollback of kind of reproductive rights and, you know, challenges being made to kind of, yeah, the parental rights of, of other rainbow people and potentially, you [00:10:30] know, marriage equality down the line. So it's all connected, but definitely trans people are being specifically targeted. And the organizations that are supporting communities like yourselves, are there other organizations you're aware of that are also being targeted? We work closely with a lot of the other organisations and I don't think anyone else has seen, um, is receiving the same. level or, or kind of what we, what we are seeing. I know Gender Minorities Aotearoa has also, [00:11:00] yeah, has also received, um, yeah, some stuff probably particularly, um, closer to March when we were all kind of in the media around trying to prevent Posy Parker. Um, I think they don't have as much of an active presence on social media and they don't do that work in schools, which has kind of made us that unique, um, target. Um, recently we're aware of, um, Malgris, I think the longest running, um, gay and lesbian association in the country, um, in Palmerston North. They, um, had a drag story time, um, event interrupted just last month, [00:11:30] I believe, or a few weeks ago, where, um, the people involved have also kind of owned firearms and have threatened them, and it's, yeah, kind of escalated. There's been some good wraparound support in their local community, um, yeah, aware, I think, of other kind of library events and, and drag story times in particular being targeted, but, um, I think a lot of it is, is, um, Um, not so much targeted at organizations beyond us, it's more broader, this attack on, yeah, particularly trans people and, um, [00:12:00] that's, yeah, playing out on kind of social media and in the media itself, just the amount of, um, yeah, headlines and that kind of thing. So, so the kind of, um, uh, attacks you're getting on, um, Can you describe what they're like? So give me examples of where they're coming from and what kind of stuff is happening. Yeah, so on Facebook. Doing a kind of cursory look through the kinds of accounts that have been engaging with, yeah, [00:12:30] generally responding and reacting to just normal social media posts of various kinds, whether they're talking about legislation or advertising events. Yeah. Sort of making comments, telling us, you know, just to stay away from children. Um, you know, calling, calling the work that we do kind of in indoctrination and gender ideology. Um, definitely. Or. Um, I guess on the more extreme end, the kind [00:13:00] of, yeah, accusations of, of kind of being groomers or pedophiles, we saw more of that on Twitter. Um, yeah, we've sort of effectively made the decision to kind of, yeah, really limit our posting on that platform because just, yeah, especially with the changes to the platform, um, in recent months, since Elon Musk took over, you know, the sort of safety and the ability to sort of exist, like. On Twitter without being really targeted by harassment. Um, yeah, it has gone away. [00:13:30] Um, yeah, the classic, yeah, the classic groomer lines, but yeah, I guess also, yeah, other bits of sort of disinformation. Um. Yeah, kind of comments about, you know, who was funding, who is funding you telling us that we're kind of like this labor party, you know, funded or asking questions about that sometimes, perhaps in good faith, sometimes, you know, not so much in good faith and taking a look at the kind of people's profiles, um, it [00:14:00] seems like, yeah, disproportionately Pākehā middle aged, um, parents, mostly women. Hmm. Not, not all, um, I've sort of biased towards kind of rural communities and people who tend to have posted, um, you know, content, um, about, you know, sort of vaccines suggesting that they are already kind of in kind of anti vax or conspiracy theory movements or, uh, [00:14:30] kind of, yeah, coming from a kind of evangelical Christian, um, kind of faith based lens, which we already know is entangled. So yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, Facebook and Twitter seem to be the places where we've been most targeted. In addition to that, we had like, I guess, a handful of kind of voicemails that were just kind of harassing us. There was one like, threat to come to our office. It didn't eventuate into anything, but we had to make a report to the police around that one. Um, [00:15:00] and yeah, just kind of saying some of those same things. Those appear to be from men. Um, we have also, I guess, Yeah, what we were speaking to is more the kind of individual social media comments. And then we, um, yeah, have, as you kind of alluded to, been also targeted, um, in terms of OIA requests for all of our government funders. Um, so all of our government funders have received OIA requests asking, you know, what money. We get what, what for, and that came from Voices for Freedom and Democracy and Z2O2. [00:15:30] Um, you know, um, fringe conservative attempts at political parties. Um, or, I can't remember, one of them sent something and one sent the other. Um, and, and particularly for our, the work that we do with, um, in schools. There's also been really thorough OIA requests trying to get a lot more information about that, asking things about. You know, puberty blockers and things, which isn't what we do. Um, yeah, so that, that was a different level of attack because that [00:16:00] also takes up our resource having to go back, you know, work with the government to, like, respond to those, look at, is there any information, you know, for example, in our funding report backs that might be actually a safety risk to release to them and so on. Um, we also had, um, we had a Disney, um, Um, pride fundraiser with the warehouse this year that supported our school's pride week campaign. And so the warehouse was selling, um, you know, things like Mickey Mouse, rainbow socks, um, and 5% of the proceeds went back to us to [00:16:30] support our school's pride week campaign. Um, and so they got hold of this. Someone made a poster saying it's the labor, the labor government's inside out. It's funding puberty blockers through the warehouse. Like, you know, it's really, um, taking it and. Yeah, creating this dis this hype and this disinformation that then people would engage with, um, and that got a lot of attention and then Brian Tamaki jumped on it and was in the media, well, he did a, uh, a sermon, I think, or whatever you want to call [00:17:00] it, something, um, speaking about how the warehouse, uh, um, giving out puberty blockers, um, and what that was about. He was getting at is that they're fundraising and giving 5% of some Mickey Mouse rainbow socks to it's like But that became the whole thing in the media and the warehouse received a lot of harassment So they call centers were kind of inundated during that time There's stuff getting harassment and so on and so for that That creates these extra concerns for us of like, or if our funders are also being attacked, is that gonna, are they gonna want to partner with us [00:17:30] again, just not because they wouldn't support the work, but just because that creates extra work or, you know, if their staff are having to go through that. So, we're yet to, I guess, sort of know the outcome in that particular relationship, if that would change whether or not they partnered with us again. Um, but it does make you worry. Um, Yeah, about those, those things when you know the extent of, if it's not just reaching us, it's, um, yeah, it's getting to them. Um, Yeah, so those are some of the types of ways that [00:18:00] we've kind of been under attack. Um, and particularly right now, it's moved on. I think in, when it, things really started in March, it was in direct response to Posey Parker's visit, and kind of this general, just attacking anything we put out for a while. Um, it's just every, every post, didn't matter what it was, there'd be negativity generally. Um, and in the last few months, it's really more around.. Um, relationships and sexuality education in school, the pushback to that and teaching anything to do with gender diversity in schools. Um, [00:18:30] there's also been a lot of, um, mis and disinformation spread about what our role in that is. So there's, um, People saying that, you know, the Ministry of Education funds us millions of dollars, that we, um, we are responsible for the curriculum, these kinds of things, which we're not responsible for the curriculum. We currently don't receive any funding from the Ministry of Education. The, um, the curriculum that people are talking about is this new curriculum that we've introduced or whatever. It's actually just the Relationships and Sexuality [00:19:00] Education Guidelines that were updated in 2020. So it's, there's just so much, yeah. The truth is not being told and people are really, um, believing it. And then the election cycle that we're currently in just makes it even more dangerous because political parties can then jump on that to, yeah, to put their two cents in or, yeah, it becomes an issue in public meetings and so on. People will ask questions about it and there's a lot of, yeah, potential harm to our communities there. [00:19:30] You've mentioned, uh, posting on social media and I'm guessing that, uh, you, you moderate those posts so that most people wouldn't see those responses. But how does that affect the people within Inside Out who are having to moderate and see all of that material? I mean, yeah, it definitely takes a sort of significant and kind of cumulative emotional toll. I think that. Um, I [00:20:00] guess there's sort of three of us, Tabby, myself and our operations and engagement lead, um, who are kind of most on the front line of kind of moderating, deleting, blocking comments and so, so on. But I think that, um, yeah, I mean, we try and do that as quickly as possible to get them off blocking people, deleting comments. We know that the traditional reporting mechanisms on the various social media platforms like don't work then and they certainly don't work if they do work, they don't look fast enough to [00:20:30] protect like our communities who might see them from them. So, um, yeah, I think that it from an organizational point of view, it wastes a lot of time and energy that. We could better spend actually doing the, the work to support people. Um, and then, you know, in the cases where we get comments that sometimes it's strategically better to kind of put a response out to having to kind of make those judgments and assessments, how much kind of debunking or pre bunking [00:21:00] do we do? I mean, even just like the strategic considerations take time and energy and I guess a kind of constantly Evolving or we're kind of constantly evolving But I think that trans people and our communities if we're online generally are being exposed to this kind of stuff everywhere all the time at the moment. So it's also a broader context in which we're all aware of what's happening kind of in the space [00:21:30] and what's happening in the United States and in the United Kingdom. And I guess that in general costs, I kind of. PAL and it kind of takes its emotional toll, especially when we have to show up to do this work. And it matters to us and we want to support people in our communities, but it's also, we're part of those communities too. So yeah, I would say that it's definitely had an impact on our staff and it's had an impact on our capacity as well. Which is partly the goal of it, you know, honestly, [00:22:00] yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think particularly it was, yeah, sort of mid March to July. It was almost daily that we were getting things. And I didn't mention to also, of course, the hate emails, the people that don't put it there, but they send it directly. And again, these. Some of those kind of people trying to naive inquire, ask about your funding and things, but you know, you know where they're coming from. Um, and we had a lot of emails and attack, particularly in our school's pride week, again, in an organized campaign to try and stop schools from taking part in [00:22:30] that as well. So yeah, there was lots of emails too, during that time. Those we would report to NetSafe and yeah, on social media. For me personally, I think in my role, as a sustained person as well, I was really. Yeah, trying to prevent our wider, like, team or our communities from having to see those comments. But it also meant that I felt like I couldn't shut off or, like, be away from my phone during that period where it was constant. And I'd remember, like, you know, [00:23:00] Saturday morning waking up and pick up my phone. Oh, all these things have got to quickly switch into that brain and delete. I remember one Friday night in bed where this guy, I was just, I turned my light off, I was going to bed and my phone lit up. And it was this. This guy posted something on Facebook and at that time on Facebook, on the mobile app, you couldn't block someone. And I just deleted his comment. 20 minutes went on where he would go to another post, he'd post something, I'd delete it. I just wanted to go to sleep. It would just keep going. And so in the [00:23:30] end I had to like, get out of bed, go to my desktop computer and, you know, block him. Thankfully now they've introduced it, you can just block someone on the mobile app. Um, but it was just like those things of like in your downtime, not being able to fully switch off and feeling like you. Yeah, we still had to be like monitoring that, um, we've since learned some great things like you can actually turn Facebook posts, um, comments just to people that follow you. And so that's, since we've done, put things like that in place that, um, helps prevent people from [00:24:00] commenting cause they don't really want to have to like your page unless they're, you know, that extra level of committed. So, um, which some people are. Yeah. Yeah. But at the time, I think as well, because we hadn't experienced anything like it and we were. It was very reactive and just in the moment and you're, it's not the focus, you're doing a million things and we were actually trying to respond to the needs in our communities at that time. Um, and, yeah, so we went. Maybe thinking as, um, smartly as we could have, but we're just kind of living in that. And yeah, it definitely took [00:24:30] a toll. And it wasn't actually until it really stopped that I noticed the difference and how I was feeling of like how much it had been kind of impacting me. Um, and for a lot of our, our team and like, yeah, our wider communities, it's just been such a, such a difficult time. And it is hard when it is your, like River was saying, it's, um. Yeah, it's in the media and everywhere you're constantly engaging with, and then it's also your job to deal with it and so on. So it's a lot. And we're really hopeful that we won't [00:25:00] see anything quite like it again. But that feels unfortunately unlikely. Yeah, I mean, and this, you know what we've anecdotally experienced ourselves individually and as an organization is backed up by the disinformation projects research, which showed that Following Posey Parker's visit, there was a genocidal rise in both the nature of and like degree and volume of kind of, yeah, transphobic rhetoric, rhetoric [00:25:30] targeting our communities and that Yeah, there are kind of clear connections between some of that and, um, yeah, kind of broader white nationalist fascist, um, kind of organizing and, and, and groups within Aotearoa New Zealand. So yeah, it's kind of, yeah, it extends beyond, yeah, beyond. Yeah, like rainbow communities and it's definitely connected to the rise in kind of anti Māori rhetoric that we're seeing also. Um, and then, you know, for our communities that exist at the [00:26:00] intersections of being rainbow and Māori or rainbow and not Pākehā. Um, you know, those impacts and vulnerabilities compound. Yeah. So how many people do you think you've blocked on social media? I think I've probably blocked at least 50 people on Facebook, if not more. Um, I guess that, yeah, I went through a period of kind of mass blocking because I thought that, you know, once a critical mass of people are simply [00:26:30] removed from the page. I mean, and also, I guess, yeah, recognizing that people who have been vulnerable to disinformation from like a mental health and well being point of view. Like actually not good for them or their communities either. If they are kind of constantly being, I guess, yeah, yeah. Showing content from us that like is triggering this kind of reaction and this desire to, to respond and to share and to fuel these cycles of outrage. So yeah, I was sort of taking [00:27:00] the approach of it's a bit of all people involved to, to like, just actually. Remove that from their social media spheres. And some very dedicated people have like created new accounts, but I think in general, some of them may not have realized, but yeah, a 50 plus, but then also, you know, odd comments that we've deleted here and there without blocking people. Most of the time I would just, cause I'd usually, I'd be doing something else that would come up on my phone. I just delete the comment and then if they came back, I would block them if, if I could, if it wasn't on my phone. [00:27:30] Um, but. I would usually just delete the comment because I didn't want anyone else to have to see that as soon as possible. Retrospectively, I wish we had done a bit more, um, data collection. I have, like, a few things screenshotted that I particularly thought was funny or, like, later in the piece I started to do that. But, um, like, there was one that, um, just, this wasn't actually on our page. And that's another thing, I guess, this was also, like, these conversations about us were happening in other spaces. Um, particularly, again, some of those, yeah, more. [00:28:00] Um, like the New Conservatives, they love to hate us as well, for instance, Family First, those other groups, so, Um, there was one that called us, um, described inside out as the Addams Family, and I just thought that was quite funny, actually. So I took a screenshot of that one. I was like, I don't think our team would think that's a bad thing. Um, that's, maybe that's a compliment. Um, we also had, like, Sean Plunkett doing, oh, and this, oh, what's his name? I can't remember his name. It's gone from my head. Some guy who did this, um, investigative journalism piece [00:28:30] for, um, the platform. Kind of on and so on. It was all, that was I think where some of that stuff about, oh, they get all this money from the Ministry of Education and stuff. I was like, hardly anything in it was. True, so he's not a very good investigative journalist. Um, and, but they were also making it personal, so like, they were making fun of how some of our staff listed their star signs on their bios on our website, for example, and making a whole joke about how, oh, no one at the organization has any qualifications. They just think that having star sign is like, whatever. Um, [00:29:00] so. I don't know where I was going with that, but just, just the, yeah, the layers of it. Um, but it would've, retrospectively it would've been really interesting to actually really capture the numbers and what, what all of that was and look at things. But obviously we were just, um, in the moment reacting, hoping no one else would have to see, see that. Do you think you can actually have a conversation or debate with people who are sending those really negative comments? I mean, are they wanting to engage like that [00:29:30] or is it just something else? No, I mean, I don't think that there's much research that supports the efficacy of engaging with people who are kind of coming from that place. I think particularly if they're coming from a place of kind of, yeah. Yeah, if that place is being informed by mis and disinformation, yeah, ignorance about our communities, and if it is kind of hateful, threatening. Yeah, we know that that even presenting sort of [00:30:00] facts to people in this kind of situations like doesn't do much to sort of change their opinion and that it's it's driven by. Yeah, kind of a much more emotional place and Yeah, I think if we've been built up to be this kind of scary threatening force in the society There's really nothing that we can do or say to change people's opinions So yeah, yeah, I don't think that we've ever really taken the approach of even trying to like really actively counter it [00:30:30] because sometimes even trying to counter it can actually just further spread the disinformation and yeah I guess we're sort of in the Process of trying to figure out what the best practices are in terms of dealing with it strategically. But, um, Yeah, I guess we're, we're sort of taking a community care point of view primarily. So just trying to protect our young people and our communities from seeing it. Um, yeah, and then trying to, yeah, trying to convince people who aren't already down the rabbit, down the rabbit hole, like, that our [00:31:00] communities, like, need support. Um, and we probably think that that's where, like, we're more likely to get that solidarity. And yeah, I think, yeah, foremost, we're an organization for, for young people and for making a difference for them. And so, yeah, we want things like our social media to be a safe and positive where possible, you know, like a place or not for them to have to, to see it there. Um, but inside out so much of our work is about education. So we do so much work going into workplaces and so on. A lot of those people are parents or they'll hold a [00:31:30] range of views. So that's a space where we. are able to, yeah, give good quality information and have a conversation, um, but I, I think, yeah, most of the time online it's just not what people were, yeah, therefore it's not possible. The few times we would engage would be things like, for example, we'd post a job ad and someone would, um, ask, like, do you have a child protection policy because everyone's calling us. Yeah, I'm saying that we're inappropriate. Someone else is commenting saying that, you know, the, um, do you have to be [00:32:00] attracted to minors to get this job and horrible things. So, so in that instance, we, yeah, we would respond because that's a chance to, to be like, yes, of course, all our staff have to, you know, we have a child protection policy, they have to be police vetted and so on. Or we'd have, um, These tended to be more private messages. We got quite a few because there was a whole, um, One week, one week, there was a whole thing about how Inside Out thinks John Money is a hero, um, and they, that he should be taught in schools and, and so on. And so we had a few concerned people messaging saying, um, you know, like their [00:32:30] family had sent them this and they didn't think, you know, they wanted to check directly with us, was that true? Or, um, those kinds of conversations. Um, or exactly what do we.. So, if it seems like someone's coming at it with a place of actually wanting to check the information, or like with good intent, then usually we will reply, but usually that's more in a private, um, So, so you mentioned earlier about some of the, the physical manifestations of, of the negativity, and I'm wondering, how do you, how do [00:33:00] you judge when, when, when you see stuff online, and you think, oh, this is actually, veering into either a physical, um, something physical that might happen to the organization? That's a great question, and it's been a big worry, I think, for us. Um, I think in the back of a lot of people in our community's mind is what happened in Christchurch, um, to the mosque, um, shooting, [00:33:30] and that we don't want, obviously, anything like that to happen to anyone again. If that happens again, it feels like our communities would be, would be targeted and it feels like this rise that we're seeing online could very well turn into that and that has been, yeah, terrifying and really horrible to exist with that kind of fear and especially in roles where you are. Responsible for like events or other people's, you know, Oh, I really try not to think about it because it's just, it's [00:34:00] just too, too much, I guess. Um, but it, it does, um, mean for instance, that we haven't published any in person events. We haven't published the locations kind of since all this has been going on, um, that, you know, events, um, like in an advisory role in a kind of rainbow human rights conference at the moment. So we, um, We had to bring that conversation to that organizing group and sort of talk about security and so on for the event, because this would be bringing all the [00:34:30] people together and that kind of thing. So, um, it's unfortunately a very real consideration in people's minds. So far we haven't, apart from sort of the drag story times, um, that some libraries and groups have been involved with, we haven't really seen anything, um, eventuate physically, which is a relief. Um, but it's. Yeah, it feels so scary and you just, you just don't know. Um, so yeah, when we did like receive that. Voicemail [00:35:00] seemed mildly threatening. We can't take that lightly. We have to make sure that we're, um, And so we did do things like, okay, make sure that, you know, if there's only one or other people not on the floor, make sure we're locking the door if you're working in the office alone. And, um, the police have tracked down who that was and Where they are and those kinds of things. So it's, yeah, it's really horrible considerations that we unfortunately have to be, um, having right now, which, yeah, just adds a whole nother layer and can also make people quite hypervigilant to, um, [00:35:30] just in the work. Uh, we should also acknowledge, uh, River has gone to, uh, another appointment. So, um, uh, thank you River, much appreciated. Um. I just want to talk about, uh, possibly the reaction you've had, uh, in schools and in terms of, um, how have the Queer Straight Alliances and schools reacted to all this kind of negativity that's been going on? Hmm, [00:36:00] um, I don't directly work with the, um, With the QSAs in my particular role, so I probably wouldn't be the best place to comment on it. Um, I know that, um, for example, a guidance counsellor recently asked us, like, you know, where the, uh, young people in their QSA were asking about where can they go to see positive representation and positive media on trans people, because everything's so negative right now. Um, yeah, and just kind of wanting that. Um, we've seen [00:36:30] quite more broadly. Next response from schools, I think, where, um, we still, you know, we work with so many schools. We have schools coordinators in every region of the country that do amazing work. In some regions, we, I think, have seen a bit of a pullback at the moment of schools being a bit more hesitant to engage and the pressures that are on them right now from, um, parents, yeah, I guess particularly in those more, like, regional or rural areas. Um, on the flip side, there's.. Probably schools that are, you know, wanting even more to, to combat [00:37:00] and are really on board and wanting our support to, to help them deal with those things. So it's, yeah, it's a bit of a mixed, um, situation. We were really pleased to see with Schools Pride Week that despite the organized kind of attack to stop it going ahead in many schools that we still, um, you know, had our most successful year. Yeah, I think it was.. Oh, I might get it wrong. I want to say 360, but apologies if that's wrong. Um, schools taken part with over 60% of New Zealand secondary schools. So, um, we were really, really pleased with [00:37:30] the results. Um, and we're currently, I think, sort of doing the evaluation and we did ask this year in our, in our evaluation, did schools experience, um, you know, what pushback did they experience? Did that effect change what they did? And we think that for some schools, unfortunately, it did mean that they didn't go up maybe as all out as they wanted for Pride Week or that kind of thing. But, um, For the most part, it didn't seem to stop schools from taking part, um, but there will always be that piece that we don't know, [00:38:00] um, of those schools where that someone did get an email and it didn't become a conversation, but, um, That garnered quite a lot of, um, public attention, uh, in terms of, you know, faith based communities, uh, really, um, pushing for, um, schools pride not to happen. I mean, were you, did, did you ever kind of think that that would ever happen? Was, had that ever crossed your mind before? Yes, I'm trying to remember. [00:38:30] Um, I don't, I think we've definitely seen, um, some pushback to it in the past, but just nothing on this kind of scale. I think we'd, yeah, definitely, but probably more in like individual schools where actually the schools may be saying that they didn't. I don't think the community was ready for it, or putting blocks into it, I'm trying to remember. Um, definitely groups like the New Conservatives, Family First, would have previously probably put things out and been opposed to it. But, um, yeah, it was just a lot, a lot more this year. You know, there were template [00:39:00] letters from various organizations that, for encouraging parents to email their principals or board of trustees to not take part, um, and that kind of thing. Yeah. One of the things I've also seen online is when, uh, resources that, that your other organisations like Gentrip Minorities Aotearoa have produced in terms of like visuals or audio or written stuff that is then kind of exerted and used, um, [00:39:30] against you. How does, like, how does that make you feel? It's frustrating, isn't it, when people take things kind of out of, yeah, out of context or use them against. I think that's where the example about John Money came, where we have a resource with some ideas for curriculum and we talk about, you know, teaching about, um, The history of intersex people and communities and, and actually how, um, John Money kind of introduced corrective surgeries and the fight, the long fight [00:40:00] from intersex communities for bodily autonomy, like our resources, something like that. Then these people, they twist that into inside out should be. Thinks that school should be teaching about John Money, a pedophile. They think he's a hero. All of this, which is completely, you know, actually no, we we really don't think that, um, we are on the same page as you probably. Um, so yeah, it's, it's really, um, Frustrating. I actually read something just this week where, and I think this is something too, that because it's, it's like the build on of different movements, it's not just the [00:40:30] kind of faith based people. It's also these like conspiracy theorist type people. It's also the kind of TERFs and active transphobes. So there's a piece. Um, I think it was from, um, resist gender education. Um, A blog post that I hadn't actually seen at the time, but about Schools Pride Week, um, this week, and it included talking about how the activities on our website, such as doing rainbow baking or coloring, um, are also problematic because they're introducing, um, you know, [00:41:00] sexuality, pride flags, symbology to children and so on. And I was like, and you know, I know a lot of the people behind those groups are actually lesbians. And I was like, how, like, it just blows my mind. Like, I just don't understand. And I think particularly with the city. It's like young people are going to be accessing this information regardless of whether it's taught in schools or not. If they're not getting taught it in schools, then.. They'll be hearing it from their, you know, their peers, from their families, from the [00:41:30] internet, um, potentially, yeah, accessing really harmful material. And I remember young people continue to, yeah, feel alone and isolated and have these terrible mental health outcomes, which is hysterically kind of what has happened. So, I just can't understand the logic behind, um, this idea that we shouldn't be teaching about these things in schools. One of the things that really concerns me is that, um, uh, you know, so to begin with you've got, um, smaller groups of people being kind [00:42:00] of anti, but when it crosses over into, um, larger political parties or movements, so like Destiny Church, New Zealand First, um, and it starts really seeping into kind of mainstream consciousness. I find that really concerning is extremely concerning. And yes, in the last few weeks, we've got New Zealand first coming out with press releases about, you know, making, um, Six [00:42:30] segregated spaces or bathrooms and issue and it kind of for the election and so on. And thankfully the other parties, the major parties have responded to that kind of shut it down quite well. But then it already means it's now conversation. It's something for people to to debate or like that then goes into, you know, people's homes when that's in the media and they start to have conversations about it and so on. So it's it's very harmful. And it's obviously right now. Everyone's very concerned for the election and what that could mean for our communities. [00:43:00] Has all this stuff, has it changed how Inside Out operates? Uh, for instance in creating resources or doing workshops or just even internally? Um, largely no. I don't think it has in many, in many ways. I think, um, we're very.. Proud of the work that we do and we know why we do it and we know that it does, you know, a good job for the most part and that it's really [00:43:30] important and we're not going to let, um, haters, you know, stop to that. So that's what people would, would like. Um, definitely there would be some changes, whether those are just, um, Temporary things. So, for instance, during, um, some particularly bad period of that hate, we did things like just removed our team page off the website. So all of our staff were, you know, so people couldn't actually go and see our names and pictures of our staff during that time just to try and prevent, um, [00:44:00] that kind of hate going wider than just the couple of us that were receiving it in the organization or that in case people were being targeted just because we didn't know what was going to happen. Um, thankfully, that hasn't yet. That hasn't been in We were able to kind of put it back up and, um, so on for our workshops. That's one where we, we have introduced some new things because, um, we've also seen an increase in, um, I guess, what's the right word? Just some more difficult situations coming [00:44:30] up in the workshops that we do, um, for schools, government agencies, workplaces, businesses, um, community organizations, maybe where people are. Um, coming in already with kind of ill intent. Maybe they've sort of been made to be there or, um, or so on. Yeah. So we've had, um, a few incidents that have not been ideal to say. And so if we're putting in place a bit more of an expectation and agreement, um, for organizations [00:45:00] before we go and deliver training of what. Um, yeah, what we expect and how we'll deal with it if there is any, um, thing that might make our facilitators unsafe in that space or that is, is just not appropriate behavior. Um, so that's something we're currently kind of putting in place. Um, we have got like internal, I guess, incident reporting. So we're really encouraging staff. They are experiencing things like that, even if it is just, yeah, uh, Something in a workshop or so on to be, um, letting us know so that our, our ward and [00:45:30] our, our wider, um, organization, we're aware of how often and what those things are so that we can put appropriate things in place as needed to kind of mitigate risk or protect our staff. We've spent, um, a wee bit of time, well actually we've spent a whole interview talking about some of the negativity that's happening over the last year or so, um, and I think actually it would be really nice to end on some positivity. Um, so, I was wondering, um, what have some of the positive responses been [00:46:00] to this horrible time? I guess one thing that really strikes me is, is the counter protests to Posey Parker, um, in March. And particularly, yeah, I was here in Wellington in Civic Square, and it was incredible just to see thousands of people, um, turned up in support of, um, trans people. You know, already, as well, knowing that Posie Parker had left the country and she hadn't even made it to Wellington and people still showing up to show their support. Um, and I think there was only two, kind of, anti [00:46:30] trans people there who didn't really get, um, get the time of day. It was quite funny, so, yeah, that, that was really beautiful and I heard from a lot of people. Um, young people and generally in our communities, the, the power that had, particularly, um, some of the things young people were saying was that they knew like in their online spaces and in their friends that support for them existed, but in kind of that wider society, they, they didn't know how many people in New Zealand supported trans people until they saw whether they were there in person [00:47:00] or they saw in the media, the reports of the thousands of people that. Um, and particularly people noticing that, you know, a lot of those people were there as allies, they weren't part of Rambo communities. And, um, yes, I think that was really, really, really powerful. Um, and yeah, gave people a lot of, um. Yeah, and it was, I think, fast to doing the judicial review against the Minister of Immigration at the time to prevent Posey Parker from coming while that, um, we had this interim [00:47:30] order to try and stop her from being able to catch her flight. Well, it didn't go obviously how we wanted and she came. The, um, the judge's ruling was actually really positive and it, um, yeah, would encourage people to go and have a read of it. And it's really clear that actually, um. You know, he, you know, the minister could have made that decision to stop her that we had, you know, brought the case properly that it did. Yeah, raise this question of, um, yeah, I guess of.[00:48:00] That sort of idea of like free speech versus when you're actually causing harm with that and so on. So, um, yeah, that was, that was quite powerful and a win for us that we hope may be useful in the future. Um, whether that's for us or for other groups to, to have those comments there. Um, and I think. Um, the, I'm just thinking, I guess, yeah, I guess the final, the final thing I'm thinking about is sort of the queer joy, um, [00:48:30] amongst particularly our team here at Inside Out and our wider, wider communities and those moments where we've been able to lean into that queer joy. Um, and so in May we came together for our, um, for an in person staff away and we don't get to do that very often because most of us are in other parts of the country, um. And more recently, we had our Shift Hui in person, and both of those times where we all got to come together, be together in person, in a queer space, and just be together, um, yeah, was really rejuvenating and just, yeah, beautiful to have those [00:49:00] connections of queer joy, um, and, and silliness, um, I will, I will say it at, in, um, In May, um, seven of us went and got broccoli tattoos together. Um, it was, it was wild. There's now an eighth one. We know there'll be more. And, um, I'm currently planning to do, um, hopefully in Pride next year, a broccoli themed Queer Joy art exhibition. And this, this whole thing, it's a, it's a story in itself. Um, but, it's, it's been how we can like, [00:49:30] um, How together, like, we can just create that community over something that, you know, maybe didn't have that meaning before or, like, can be quite silly. Um, and I realize how this will sound if any of the anti people who have been talking about this interview listen to this and they're like, what, broccoli? Broccoli tattoos? They are as weird as we thought they were. But, um, for us it's.. Yeah, it's just been beautiful experiences of connecting with each other, um, and finding the joy in those moments where we can in a time that is actually, [00:50:00] yeah, been so, um, so challenging. And for many of, many of us, it's not, um, we haven't. Quite lived through something quite like, quite like this. It feels different to like for me when I think back to the time of like marriage equality, this feels quite different and a lot scarier, if that makes sense. So, um, yeah, you've got to, got to find those moments of joy and times to kind of shut out everyone else and just be a bit silly. IRN: 3636 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/elizabeth_kerekere_farewell_from_parliament.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Elizabeth Kerekere farewell from Parliament USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Alofa Aiono; Bella Simpson; Elizabeth Kerekere; George Parker; Lainey Cowan; Megan Brady-Clark; Tabby Besley; Tahlia Aupapa-Martin; Tīwhanawhana; Val Little; Will Hansen INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 2020s; Alofa Aiono; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arconnehi Paipper; Bella Simpson; Elizabeth Kerekere; George Parker; Georgina Beyer; Gisborne; Green Party; Hone Tūwhare; InsideOUT Kōaro; KAHA Youth Hui (2007); KAHA Youth Hui (2009); Kazam Youth Hui (2011); Kerry Peipi; Kickass Wāhine Crew; Lainey Cowan; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Megan Brady-Clark; Member of Parliament; Napier; Ngāti Kahungunu; Parliament buildings; Scorpio; Shift hui; Tabby Besley; Te Awa o Mokotūāraro (river); Tūtira Mai Ngā Iwi (waiata); Wellington; Wellington Pride; White Chapel Jak; lesbian; maiden speech; takatāpui; transgender; valedictory speech DATE: 16 August 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from MP Elizabeth Kerekere's farewell event held at Parliament on 16 August 2023. A special thank you to the organisers and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared. A stereo recording of the waiata can be heard on this page. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Can, can everyone hear me? Yeah! Alright, come through, please come through, come through, take a seat. Um, I know it's a little bit different from the maiden speech. First and foremost, thank you to all the Purple Power people who have come to support, um, my wife, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, and her final hoorah, um, here in, in this place. Te whanau whanau, love yous a long time. Um, and to our families and close friends, thank you. [00:00:30] So those who went to her maiden speech, we had lots and lots of people, it's a little bit more intimate today, but we're still going to spread news out, um, and because there's been the flu bug, and people have been responsible, and have messaged in. Saying they don't want to bring their bugs to this place. Yay! And so they've stayed home and they'll send in purple energy. So those who've made it, we appreciate it. Um, if you haven't got your waiata words, um, grab a folded bit of paper. Um, don't [00:01:00] worry if you can't sing, just move your lips. Um, Te Whanau Whanau have got your back. Um, what's going to happen is that eventually, those stickers that I gave you, um, has a, should have G and a letter, either A, B or C, um, Kerry and myself and maybe some other ones who know their way around this warren, will call a section and will take you through to the gallery to get you seated. Um, I'm looking at them, they're still speaking, awesome. Um, [00:01:30] Elizabeth is scheduled to speak at 5. 45, however, if the house business is running ahead of time, they will just roll in and get her to speak. Um, hence the reason why we appreciate you guys coming in early. Um, we know that we've had people travel from Auckland who have had delayed flights. People who've travelled from Invercargill, Nelson and Dunedin and Christchurch, um, we appreciate that. I myself travelled from Gisborne via Napier. I had to drive to [00:02:00] Napier and get on a plane, but I'm here. Um, and what we're going to do, we're going to listen to Elizabeth's speech and go, wow! And then we're going to file out and we're going to come back here. We're, we're gonna take some photos, um, we're gonna get a group shot, there will be some nibbles, okay, nibbles not a feed, nibbles. That's emphasised to my family. Um, so there will be some nibbles, but there will also be an f poss bar. If someone wants [00:02:30] to shout me an alcoholic beverage, um, but there'll also be, um, free, um, lemonade, juice, and, um, Coca Cola for the non drinkers. That's on Elizabeth and, and I. Um, but alcoholics, buy your own. Um, what else? And then, so you can mix and mingle, there'll be a slideshow of.. We have the fabulous Elizabeth just going on loop, and then we have one of her favourite cover bands, Whitechapel Jack, who made it [00:03:00] on a delayed flight from Auckland. Um, they will play a few songs for, um, us to have a bit of a boogie. And then we'll wrap up, and those who want to go and have.. Um, the feed, uh, there's the Thistle Inn, which is not too far. That's where my family went for the maiden speech. Um, we can go over there. Um, and then I think, I think that's it. Who's got the time? Who's got a watch? Five o'clock. Excellent. Alright, let's go through the wine. So thank you. Thank you for listening to me. Love you long [00:03:30] time.[00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] Rip Budita, Rip Budita, Rip Budita, our tablets are there, and we want[00:06:30] them. So, we are at Parliament and we are about to listen to Elizabeth Kerekere's valedictory speech. Yeah, there's a whole heap of us and lots of people in purple, um, and I'm not wearing purple but I did bring my umbrella which is rainbow but I can't take it in with me. So anyway, I'm ripping it on the inside. Can you describe the scene in front of us? Well, there's a sea of people wearing all [00:07:00] sorts of different shades of purple, uh, clothing or accessories. And a few people are wearing masks. And there's a real diverse group of people. And we're all here to, um, celebrate and, um, give our tautoko to, uh, lovely Elizabeth. And I think we're actually moving up to the gallery now. Can you, um, describe Elizabeth's time in the house? Oh, she's just been a.. Spark of light, and um, especially for um, [00:07:30] Takatāpui, for our rainbow communities, for especially standing up for our transgender communities. She's been amazing, um, she, she, she's such a fighter, and I just think it's a huge loss to these halls that she's gone, you know, that she's going. But I don't think that her mahi will stop here. If you had three words to describe Elizabeth, what would they be? Oh, queen. Um, ha ha ha. Um, oh. Just. [00:08:00] Fabulous, and a fighter. Yeah. Hopefully you'll get a chance to speak to her tonight, but if you don't, what would be something that you would say to her? Oh, I'm totally here for you, wherever you go next. Um, I have got your back. I am.. Um, just with you for life. Yep. So, um, I'm Bella. Um, I have been a out activist trans woman since I was 11 years old. One of the first hui that I went to [00:08:30] was, uh, in 2011 and it was organised by Elizabeth Kerikeri. Yeah, um, and so tonight we are listening to Elizabeth Kerikeri's valedictory speech here in Parliament. It's a real privilege to be here and to support my friend, my family. It's been a real journey for Elizabeth, uh, in the time she's been here in Parliament. What do you think her legacy, her parliamentary legacy is going to be? Uh, I think that, uh, the media and [00:09:00] society will always villainise, uh, women and.. Women of color and, uh, Pasifika and Maori women, that's just what we've seen. But I think, from a community perspective, we have seen ourselves represented. We've got visibility, um, and I think it's just another one of those small steps of being, having the door opened for others to come after, which is just as powerful and important. If you had three [00:09:30] words to describe, um, Elizabeth. What would those three words be? Uh, beautiful, empowering, and, uh, a trailblazer. And if you, uh, have an opportunity to, to speak to her, which I'm sure you will tonight, um, what would you like to say to her? Oh, that I'm proud of her, and that, um, I'm really grateful that, you know, she's put herself out there and, you know, taken those steps just to even start conversations. Like, sometimes we [00:10:00] forget how important it is, just that base visibility and authenticity. Um, we all know that Elizabeth is not one from shying away from being her bold and authentic self, and that's what we love. We love seeing the colour come into Parliament and the.. That authenticity, you know? Talofa lava, kia ora. My name is Alofa Aiono. Um, probably claim to fame as the wife of Dr Elizabeth Kerekere. And today, it's her last hurrah speech, her mic drop speech, her [00:10:30] valedictorian is what they call it, statement. Um, because my wife is retiring, um, from Parliament. Um, and you can find her link to her speech, um, online I think. And then you can, um.. Have a listen, um, I'm sure it's going to be entertaining. The last three years have been such a rollercoaster. Can you, um, sum up for me what it's been like for you? Oh, wow, look, it's, it's a privilege, you know, it's an honor and privilege, um, to be [00:11:00] in this place by association, um, my wife always said that, um, you know, it's not guaranteed how long she'll be here, she thought guaranteed three years, how much can she get done, um, for the communities and, uh, whanau that she represents. And I know I'm her biggest fan. Um, but I'm not her only fan. And I am so proud at what she has achieved as a one term parliamentarian. So, what do you think some of those biggest achievements have been? Her biggest achievements? Look, [00:11:30] um.. Well, where do you start? Like, um, Elizabeth was involved with, um, the actual membership of the party, um, before she became a parliamentarian, so she helped with writing policy for the Green Party, she, um, helped with, um, restructuring, um, actually, um, living the kaupapa Maori values. Um, that the Green Party, um, stand by in terms of it being, um, tangata te tiriti. Um, and just the stuff she's done [00:12:00] for, uh, rainbow communities and iwi and takatāwhi and women. Um, yeah, amazing. I don't know where to start. Look. If you had to describe Elizabeth in three words, what would those words be? Um, three words, oh my goodness. Um, powerful. Um, uh, result driven. I know that's two words, but the Samoan can't count. And, um, and passionate, kaupapa driven, eh? And, um, yeah, [00:12:30] that's her. Yeah. And finally, um.. If you had anything you wanted to say to her tonight on, on tape, what would that be? Um, look, I tell her I love her every day. Um, every day, um, she does something that makes me even more proud. Um, we celebrated, uh, next year in February will be 32 years together. And so, my secret is, is that I just hold on and I don't let go. And anyone that knows Elizabeth is that, um, she's a doer. She moves really [00:13:00] quick and if you don't hold on, um, she will, um, leave you where you are for you to sort of catch up and, um, because she's got stuff to do, eh? Thank you so much, Gareth. Okay, I'm going to go take my seat. Okay. I call on Dr Elizabeth Kitikire to make her valedictory statement.[00:13:30] Pat McGill.[00:14:00] I thank you so much for your support and advice, especially over the past few months. I also acknowledge the former Speaker, the Right Honourable Trevor Mallard, who once sent me a note in the House [00:14:30] to say that my purple sequin jacket was stretching the definition of business attire. But shout out to Parliamentary Services, who indeed are the best people supporting the best Parliament in the world, and especially my Relationship Manager. Uh, Jane McKenzie and those who have supported my office as we've transitioned. Ka mihi mahi, uh, tōku whānau me oku hoa, [00:15:00] uh, nōku hoa kātua kua tāi mai, uh, tēnā rā tātou kātua. Greetings to my colleagues, my whanau, all of our friends and community people who are here in person and watching online as we hashtag paint parliament purple one more time. I have gathered you here to tell you a story. It is a story of hope, of expectation, of hard work and very late nights. [00:15:30] of laughter and of tears. Not mine though, apparently I'm not allowed to cry. There is scandal because no one is surprised that I would challenge the powers that be. But there's also betrayal because the powers that be don't like to be challenged. And as number four on the Green Party initial list this year I thought I was on a heartwarming two part series and it turns out I was on Survivor and I did not see the blind side coming. However, it is ultimately a [00:16:00] story of triumph because very few people ever get to be an MP. And I sit proudly on my seat up in the naughty corner, uh, because it is an incredible honor to serve those who put me here. And I will work hard for them every day. Uh, mihi atu ki te pāti o ACT, uh, for granting me this space to speak to you all here tonight. As I said in my maiden speech, change happens at many levels. And for some change, for [00:16:30] takatāpui Māori and rainbow whānau, it can only happen here. And I'm really proud of the things I've helped usher through. Because real power and real change lies in community, and with whanau, where I come from and where I gladly return. In 2020, I came in as part of the most diverse Green Caucus ever, and with four rainbow MPs, we.. I proudly claim to be the proudest party in the proudest parliament in the world. I continue to hold [00:17:00] out hope for our next trans non binary or intersex representative who will one day follow in the footsteps of the late and great Jordina Beyer. I came into the Green Party and eventually into parliament after over 40 years of working for our people on Te and Kaupapa Māori things. And over 35 years on youth development and rainbow issues. My focus has always been on our health and our well being and for suicide and violence [00:17:30] prevention. I lead the Maori strategy as chair of Te Matawaka, uh, the Maori Pacifica, uh, Caucus of the Greens and shout out to the incredible Te Matawaka staff who supported that mahi. Tēnā rā koutou katoa. Our highlight was our meetings with the authors of Matike Mai and He Pua Pua, to focus our efforts for the rights of whangata whenua, radically shift the way we make decisions together in this country, and to work towards a [00:18:00] future our ancestors dreamed of when they signed Te Tiriti o Waitangi. We supported occupations around the motu including at Ihumatao, Putiki, uh, Aotea, and Mauwhenua. We encouraged whanau, hapu, and iwi to reach out to us so we could work alongside them. Uh, using our platform and resources to amplify and progress their kaupapa. Operation Patiki ki Kohupatiki Marae reached out to us through the Greens Hawks Bay, Te Matau a Maui branch, and welcome to [00:18:30] both of those ropu who are represented here today. In February 2022, Aki Piper, known as Te Kuini o te Awa, shared a vision to restore the mauri of te awa and enhance the well being of the people through the return of its original name, Ngaruroro ki Mokotuararo ki Rangatira. We supported their petition, two full applications to the Geographic Board, visiting Hastings nearly every month and talking almost every day on the phone. In June we [00:19:00] celebrated that success. It was an exciting, exciting day with the official renaming of Te Awa o Mokotuararo. We were devastated when only a month later he passed away in his sleep. Her legacy lives on, and my office will stay committed to Operation Pātiki, uh, in her memory. Another favourite was when the whānau of Te Waimana Kākū, who are also represented here tonight, reached out to us a year ago. I was proud to host them here in Parliament, and they shared their vision [00:19:30] of their people with jobs and houses on their own whenua. And the devastating impact of the sudden halt of a joint hapū government. project that had promised or they thought had promised to bring their vision to reality. After I raised questions in the house and arranged meetings for them with ministers and their officials, they had their deposits returned and the project looks set to resume. Now those houses aren't built yet. But again, [00:20:00] we remain committed to supporting them until one day we're seeing those being built and their whānau back home. It is in the rainbow space that we have been the most transformative government. Shout out to Rainbow Greens who are with me every step of the way and several of whom are here in the house. In 2021, the Greens led the news at Waitangi for the first time, uh, talking about takatapui rights and banning conversion therapy. My record breaking petition was launched at Auckland Pride [00:20:30] and garnered over 150, 000 signatures in one week, pressuring the government to pass legislation sooner rather than later. I joined the Justice Select Committee for the also record breaking numbers of submissions and hearings. I also joined the Governance and Administration Committee for the BDMRR. To ensure that our trans, non binary, and intersex whānau could more easily change their birth certificates. We've made progress for those people who are born here, but there's work to do [00:21:00] on those who are born overseas. We will keep going. One of my single proudest things is putting the term Whakatāpui into legislation for the first time in the Pai Ora legislation after So very long of researching, promoting, and advocating to be able to do that, uh, was an incredible, incredible thing for me. And my member's bill, I put that in the biscuit [00:21:30] tin, like, just around my maiden speech, and it got drawn. Just in time to exist, and we'll see what happens in the next government. But it was the Human Rights Prohibition of Discrimination on Grounds of Gender Identity and Expression and Variations of Sex Characteristics Amendment Bill. Again, putting a stake in the ground in law for our trans, non binary and intersex whanau. Uh, [00:22:00] and a quick shout out to the Human Rights Commission, uh, and the cross party, uh, Parliamentary Rainbow Group. We have.. supported Idaho, but and, and loosely through our respective parties contributed to all the legislation that has happened in this area. So that was some of the great stuff. There were other things not so great. A few months ago, I had a falling out with the co leaders of the Green Party, which led to my resignation from the party and my [00:22:30] retirement from Parliament. I don't know if anyone here noticed it, it was handled quite discreetly. And actually it was not fun. Day after day, week after week, month after month, I watched while, uh, increasingly unfounded and increasingly elaborate allegations were made about me. Uh, they also claimed that these issues were being resolved by some sort of process [00:23:00] that they had underway. I categorically dispute all such allegations. So this email was sent to my lawyer from the so called process team. Dated 7. 14pm Wednesday 3rd of May. A full four weeks after the original incident. And I quote. As previously discussed, please find attached draft terms of reference for the next steps in our process. You will note that the listed [00:23:30] complainants are just Marama and James. This is because we have not received formal complaints from anyone else at this time. So to recap, no formal complaints, no natural justice, and never a process, let alone a tikanga based one. I consider this to be an epic failure of leadership. I've been a leader for most of my life and mentored many other leaders and especially [00:24:00] amongst our young rainbow people. So here's some tips on how to be a good leader. If a staff, person or MP expresses concerns with how they've been treated, address it immediately. Follow a good faith and restorative process. If a staff member or MP is bringing concerns about racism or other behaviour from other MPs and senior staff, perhaps address those issues. If allegations have been made about someone, perhaps talk to that person to clarify the facts before you start vilifying them in public. [00:24:30] And lastly, if your organisation has a clear principle of non violence, perhaps do not engage in ongoing abusive behaviour. Many people, many people have asked, even after all this, why I still support the Green Party. I've given them, I support the vote in the House, except of course for the therapeutic bill. But I am as committed to our charter principles of ecological wisdom, social responsibility, appropriate decision making and non violence as I ever was. [00:25:00] I support the Green Kaupapa and policies, several of which I helped write and use from Māori frameworks I created, as in fact, the entire restructure. Of the party was based on a Maori framework I created. Some of the people I love and trust the most in this world are green party members, including my wife, , under Juris, um, and my staff Kerry Pei and the former party co convener. [00:25:30] And I'm to all the green members from the cus across the country who are in the house here tonight. Uh, Particularly to the other former party co convener Penny Lynch and her girls who are here all the way from Munich. Uh, because I still think of this as my party, and one day I plan to be back. I've got work to do, but I will never apologise for calling out racism, homophobia and transphobia wherever it occurs.[00:26:00] Speaking of calling out, like many people, I thought the theatre of the debating chamber was indicative of relationships in this house, but of course it is not. The thing that most surprised me when I became an MP was how collegial it was. And we know we get most of the real work done in our select committees and cross party parliamentary groups. I am such a big fan of a house select committee. I am so proud to do that work and it is the time when I [00:26:30] most feel like a lawmaker is in that space working with my colleagues. I have such huge respect for the chairs and the members of that committee. And just a shout out to the staff who do incredible work. We've gone through 67 petitions. in our job and I have appointed myself as the editor in chief of all reports and papers that come through that committee. I also became co chair of the parliamentary friendship group for North America with my colleague Nicola Grigg and I'm a [00:27:00] member of the Europe friendship group that involves hosting a meeting online with dignitaries across those regions. Last year my highlight was visiting colleagues and Six European countries in just two weeks, including seeing the European Parliament in action and listening to Paul Goldsmith play music of a Lithuania composer on a grand piano in Lithuania. Less fun was when our entire delegation's luggage went missing and it chased us across [00:27:30] Europe for the last week. I was also part of the New Zealand Parliamentary Population and Development Group and supported events by the Commonwealth of Women Parliamentarians. A highlight for me was the combined celebration we held last year for being the first parliament in the world to get 50% women representation. But I am most proud of being chair of the Wāʻat committee. Shout out to Tasha Fernandes and the crew for their stellar work. We opened Te Papakura gallery and increased the representation of women and Māori [00:28:00] artists in the collection with the purchase. of six new major works. This is a workplace unlike any other. Being in Parliament leaves its mark on all of us. Like I never used to work with the TV on, but now Parliament TV has been the soundtrack of the last three years. Now, Not only can I recognise every single voice in this house without looking, I don't know how I will function without hearing the dulcet tones of Andrew Bailey or Grant Robinson, or hearing the Honourable [00:28:30] Ginny Anderson tell the Honourable Mark Mitchell one more time, including today, uh, quote, how the 1, 800 extra police will help New Zealanders feel safe. I have never taken this job for granted. Because the goal was never to be an MP, the goal was to do what only an MP could do. Now I know how everything works, I can operate better as an advocate, advocate in the future. I said in my maiden [00:29:00] speech that I would work respectfully across the House, and I hope that my colleagues have found this to be so. And that regardless of who is in government after the dust settles, those MPs who remain, We'll take my call if I ring. And to be clear, I'm not starting my own lobby company. Only because none of the communities I represent can afford to pay me. After parliament, I will put my energy back into my [00:29:30] research and ensuring Paiora actually delivers everything it claims it will for Maori, Pacifica, women, rainbow people, people with disabilities and rural areas and with rare disorders. Now I promised a triumphant end to the story. When I became an independent MP, we heard the horror stories of previous independents who struggled without the machinery of their party. I aimed to, number one, be the best independent MP ever in this Parliament, and number two, to go out in style. [00:30:00] History will decide the first, and I would like to thank all of you here today for helping create the second. My colleagues, you are all welcome to join our party tonight. There will be food, drink, a cashless cash bar, and dancing. Shout out to, uh, my favorite band, White Chapel Jack, who have come down from Auckland to perform for us. Because if you want to catch up with me, you will need to go onto the dance floor. Finally, as I like to say, why do we get up in the morning [00:30:30] if not to change the world? I've done that in every other part of my life, and with all of you. I've done it here and I'll strive to keep doing it after I leave because this Is not the end of my story.[00:31:00] [00:31:30] [00:32:00] [00:32:30] [00:33:00] [00:33:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Kia ora, ko Talia[00:34:00] tōku ingoa. I am [00:34:30] the co chair of the Wellington Pride Festival and it was really emotional in the house. Tonight. Um, fire is so inspiring and you know, it, it hurts to see that she hasn't had, um, the most peaceful exit that she could have had from Parliament. She's been such a leader and such a strong person in the community. She's made so much happen, especially for Wellington Pride. So yeah, it was really emotional tonight. What do you think her, uh, biggest legacy will be? Oh, [00:35:00] her works. The writings that she's done, uh, her thesis, yeah. The Hitsakata voice stuff is just inspiring. And.. Pioneering! Yeah, she's the first to have done works like that and it really has like opened doors for a lot of other takatāpui. That was amazing to hear. I hadn't realised that takatāpui was the first time in legislation due to Elizabeth Kepeke. Yes. Yes, very much so. And, uh, you know, I [00:35:30] think that any leader in the community, you know, you stand on the shoulders of those who come before you. And, um, I stand on the shoulders of Elizabeth and, and she opened many doors for me to be able to do the work that I've done in the community. So yeah, I'm just really proud of her and really thankful for her. If you could describe Elizabeth in three words, what would those words be? Hilarious comes to mind first. She's so cheeky, um, hilarious, intelligent, [00:36:00] advocate. Kia ora, I'm Laney, um, and I'm a member of, um, Te Whanau Whanau. And, um, we went in as a group and sat together. It was, um.. Strange seeing her on the side of the opposition, seeing Elizabeth come in and sit. But she, uh, uh, her speech was amazing and she handled the whole situation so well. And she spoke so, oh, holistically for, uh, every aspect of, of her life. [00:36:30] Beautiful to hear, really. What was the feeling like inside the, um, the house? I thought people, I don't know how they knew that you, you were not permitted to clap or look like that, but you could click, and I can't, but people can, eh? So, um, there was a lot of, uh, clicking. in support of what she was saying and, um, Ah, I'm blown away by her speech. I thought that it was, it covered every aspect, [00:37:00] um, of her, of getting there, of what had changed for her, of the incident that led to her now leaving, um, and she spoke. So clearly about that, and, and, uh, um, vigorously, and you could hear the passion in her voice, eh? But, um, but she then moved on and recaptured, and I thought that was a wonderful way to finish, to recapture, um, um, hope and, um, the things she'd enjoyed [00:37:30] about being in Parliament. I thought, um, the, what do you call it, the holism, holisticness of her speech was, was lovely. Um, and it was wonderful to be with, just to see the whole gallery full of people that knew her from every aspect of her life. Her whanau, um, her wife's whanau, uh, Lofa's whanau, uh, some of us friends that go back. Decades and decades, uh, Te Whanau [00:38:00] Whanau that she, she started, um, other groups that she's, uh, um, supported, uh, and have, and have come to support her tonight. It was just, um, a beautiful. Uh, crowd, uh, in the gallery, wasn't it? And, uh, it was lovely to be there. And to have come to her, what do you call it? When she was welcomed. To come when she first arrived, and then come back. Uh, that's [00:38:30] the least we could do, is come and take her away. From a place that, she talked about the support, but from a, from a, a place that's also caused a lot of hurt, eh? Anyway, I'm blown away by her dignity, so. Kia ora, it's Tabby Besley here from Inside Out Koaro. I've just been in the house to watch, um, Elizabeth Kirikiri's final. Hurrah, shall we say. Well, hopefully not the final. Um, so we've been here, lots of [00:39:00] us wearing purple in support in the gallery to watch her, and I guess thank her for all the work that she's done. And, yeah, I guess it was mixed, mixed emotions, um, pride. Yeah, being able to see, see her and what she's contributed and, um, have someone that's been such an incredible figure in our communities, um, you know, in this place that is Parliament, um, and also obviously, yeah, sadness and anger at kind of, yeah, obviously what, what's happened, um, that's led to her being, having to leave.[00:39:30] I thought it was very interesting, her final comments around about that she wasn't here as a, uh, she wasn't here as a Member of Parliament. She, she came in to do work, not be a Member of Parliament. Absolutely, and I remember actually, oh, I don't know what year it was, years ago, before Elizabeth, um, ran. Ran for the Green Party the first time. I remember being at a hui and she asked a few of us our opinions on whether we thought that she should run for Parliament and join, kind of, join the Green Party in that way. Um, or not [00:40:00] kind of stay in the community. I remember, um, I remember saying I thought she should stay working in the community realm and that, um, you know, that we can do so much change in this realm. But she was, um, Yeah, obviously took a lot of time to think about it and, and gave, gave it a go and we've been so lucky to have her, um, in here doing that community work, um, it hasn't felt like she's, you know, changed as a person, she's still been so accessible and, um, always in support of what we're, what we're doing in our kind of organisations and communities.[00:40:30] Now, Elizabeth was organising, um, kind of queer youth whoies way back in the early 2000s, maybe 2008, 2009. Did you go to any of those early works? I absolutely did. Yes, um, the SS4Q and Kaha um, Hui that happened in those days. Um, and that, yeah, it was definitely a big inspiration of, yeah, that led, led to, um, the Shift Hui that Inside Out does now. And so when you think back about those early youth Hui's to today, [00:41:00] um, what are the kind of key things you think of when you think of Elizabeth and her activism? Uh, it's just phenomenal, like how much she has.. has done and, um, the quality she has as a person, just that kind of relentless dedication and passion, um, and she likes to call on her, you know, her Scorpio strategic mind, um, and her ability to, yeah, to get things done and to, um, yeah, always kind of follow through with what she believes in and I think she's always, yeah, from [00:41:30] the time I've known her, always, um, been like that and it's just got stronger and stronger, um, in it. Now, Um, If you wanted to say something on tape to Elizabeth, what would that be? Oh, just, thank you. Thank you so much for, um, everything, and for what you've had to put up with, um, you know, being in this kind of colonial.. Probably inherently quite queerphobic system, um, but you've been a voice for us, um, [00:42:00] and that's, yeah, hasn't gone unnoticed, it's been so appreciated, um, and there are so many people that, yeah, have seen what, the work that you've done, um, here, but more so out in the wider Thank you. In the wider communities and, um, yeah, we're just so grateful and we'll continue to stand by you and work with you and yeah, we're incredibly lucky to have had you and even if it was just this three years kind of in Parliament that has made a difference and an impact and it will give so many [00:42:30] people coming forward that, um encouragement, I think, as well, and that strength that, um, they can be someone that enters these spaces, too. So, my name is Will Hanson. I am a trustee of Tipuranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa, Um, and at the moment, I'm at the, uh, after party, I guess you'd call it, for Elizabeth Kirikiri's, uh, valedictory speech. Um, there's a whole bunch of people dressed in purple, lots of very lovely, friendly faces, lots of chatting. I think there's a, um, sense of [00:43:00] excitement. Everyone's waiting to see Elizabeth. She's just, I think, being hounded by the media downstairs. So, uh, yeah, it's a really lovely warm atmosphere. So what was it like, uh, hearing, uh, Elizabeth's valedictory actually in the, in the gallery? Uh, it was really cool to see her speak in the gallery and I, I guess I was there for her maiden speech. So it's kind of exciting to be there for her valedictory speech. And aside from her maiden speech, you know, this is the second time I've been to the gallery. So it's really cool to just see in the flesh [00:43:30] her and this is where she's been for the last three years and been doing so much advocacy for queer people and other communities. So it was really special to be there in person and support her and show up in all the purple. So if you had to sum up Elizabeth in three words, what would they be? Oh, that's a lot of pressure, three words. Um, courageous, um, fabulous, and kind hearted.[00:44:00] Yeah, I'm pretty proud of her. I'll just share a little story. I was, I sort of said to her, I'm going to look for a rubber microphone so that when you finish, I'll drop the mic from the gallery. You can imagine what she said to that. So, um, that didn't happen. Um, and I'll just share another story. Thank you to all those who have traveled, those who were delayed in Auckland and still made it. If you missed her speech, it'll be, [00:44:30] um, online. We'll post up the link. But I'm going to share a story. You know, I was thinking, why am I nervous? Why am I so nervous? And I'm going to take a line. I was celebrating a friend's PhD and her cousin did a line where she said her cousin's PhD is her PhD. And I thought, why didn't I use that? So, I'm going to use that line. The reason why I'm nervous is because this valedictory speech is my valedictorian speech. [00:45:00] So thank you, whanau. Thank you for coming and listening to our speech, our statement. Um, thank you for supporting my wife. Um, we're a team. She always says that she can't do anything without me, and vice versa. So, she will join us. Hey, there she is![00:45:30] Hey! Hip hip, hooray! Alright, so a lot of people are going to want a group photo as well, so don't disappear. Um, and so, and we'll get the, I'll get, we've got a couple of speeches, that's right, we've got a couple of speeches, so grab a drink, grab some food, and I'll get directions from my wife. Thank you, kia ora. Okay, we're gonna start off with [00:46:00] a dear friend. Remember I told you the story about the cousin who was at the PhD of a friend? This is the friend. So, um, the newly, um, Dr. Megan, um, is gonna say a few words first, and I'm gonna hand her the mic. And listen carefully, I'm, I'm gonna hear this for the first time as well. So here you go, Megan. And after Megan, who have you got, Elizabeth? George! Excellent! Okay, here you go. Kia ora koutou katoa. Uh, thank you for this [00:46:30] opportunity to speak and to be here tonight to celebrate you, Elizabeth. Um, for those of you who don't know me, my name is Megan Brady Clark, and I'm talking tonight, uh, on behalf of a group, um, of amazing women, scattered throughout the room, I thought they might be in a cluster, um, called the Kick Us Wahine Crew, so dubbed by Elizabeth. Um, we're a group of friends who met through the Green Party, having all been actively, very actively involved at one time or another. [00:47:00] Back in 2021, near the start of this electoral term, the Kick Ass Wahine crew decided to meet up. We'd been working together online for a while, but we decided to have a full two day workshop to plan, talk and strategise. Now the first thing that has to be said about this is that it was January. Parliament didn't start sitting until mid February, so most MPs were as far from the beehive as possible, resting and relaxing [00:47:30] on holiday. Not Elizabeth. On those beautiful sunny days, Elizabeth had flown in from Gisborne to sit inside, pull out the felt pens and the post it notes and get on with the mahi. She turned up with an absolute determination to get the most out of those two days, holding tightly the weight of responsibility for all those whom she represented in Parliament. We covered a lot in that hui. We talked about parliamentary [00:48:00] processes, Green Party internal processes, policy, media, members bills, admin, the Green long term strategy, constitutional change, you know, your normal fun summer holiday topics. And it could easily have been utterly overwhelming and daunting. But Elizabeth has a remarkable clarity of vision, an ability to see past the noise and the game playing, and to just get on with what needs to be done. No matter the topic, Elizabeth [00:48:30] kept us grounded on what matters. She was there to make change, to advocate for things larger than herself. That is what she had done before her time in Parliament, and that is what she continued to do throughout her time in Parliament, tirelessly and fearlessly. And despite the rather dry topics, we actually had a wonderful time. We told stories, we laughed, we commiserated, we shared food. Elizabeth was there [00:49:00] to work, and we were there to support her work, but we were also there to support each other as people. That weekend and every other time that I've worked with her, Elizabeth has made space for us to bring ourselves fully into the room. Values like aroha, justice, compassion and dignity get thrown around a lot in left politics. But Elizabeth lives them. I've felt first hand her love and her upholding of my [00:49:30] complex messy humanness and I've witnessed it in her relationships with others. I also see it in her political work, where she fights to improve the lives of people, particularly those marginalized by the current systems, never forgetting that behind all the numbers and policy and jargon of parliament, there are real people with real lives being impacted. Today, thanks to Elizabeth's work, the world is a safer [00:50:00] and brighter place for so many of us. I'm in awe of Elizabeth's bravery. To live with such integrity. To be so true to herself and her values. And yes, that does include the ability to somehow rock sequins and feathers even during the daytime. I'm not exaggerating when I say that there have been times when faced with a difficult situation, I've asked myself, what would Elizabeth do? And I don't [00:50:30] claim to have always channeled her perfectly, but the answer is always consistent. Find what matters, and be true to it. In your maiden speech, and again tonight, Elizabeth, you put forward a question. Why do we get up in the morning if not to change the world? You made incredible, important changes during your time as an MP, but you also changed the world before you arrived in Parliament, and I know you'll keep changing it after your time here too.[00:51:00] And so I want to thank you, Elizabeth. For your relentless courage and integrity, for being an indefatigable champion of justice, dignity, and aroha for all of us. We love you, and we're so excited to stand alongside you as you continue to change the world. And I have a small token on behalf of Kick Ass Wāhine, Greens, and a few other community people of our love for you. Tēnā[00:51:30] koutou katoa, ko George Parker, tōku ingoa. I was so honoured and admittedly a little bit petrified, uh, when I was asked to speak this evening, uh, because nothing could mean more to me than the opportunity to honour you, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere. When I was thinking how I might put into words my [00:52:00] feelings of awe and deep appreciation for you, Elizabeth, My hand reached, as it is, uh, want to doing these days, to my chest, where the toro, the albatross, hangs, uh, that you gifted me after an intense day of Trans Pregnancy Care Project research hui in the hills of Otokonui on a spring day last year. A precious taonga that reminds me every day what it means to do the work we [00:52:30] do so that rainbow lives can flourish. Grounded, uh, in relationships that are based on trust, respect, and aroha. That has been my experience of you as we have continued to travel down the braided river of work and friendship, Elizabeth, and I thank you for it. The mighty tōrua. Signifies beauty and power, splendor and strength, but [00:53:00] also freedom, stretching traditional boundaries and territories, as this mighty bird explores uncharted waters. Though it circumnavigates the globe, the to is uniquely of Altura and always returns home to the OTA harbor. A place where Elizabeth and I are both very fortunate to share whanau connections. Elizabeth, on behalf of [00:53:30] our vibrant rainbow communities of Altura, so, uh, many of whom are represented in this room tonight. You are our mighty tōrua. Your enduring leadership in uplifting takatākuitanga and our rainbow communities in Aotearoa is beyond outstanding. Your contributions during your term in Parliament have been phenomenal. Your matauranga ti Wharetaka Tātui is [00:54:00] world leading, opening powerful new pathways for rainbow flourishing through the decolonisation of knowledges about gender, sexuality and sex characteristic diversity. So this journey in Parliament, uh, this flight of the tōrua may be over for now, uh, but the next journey awaits you, and you have our love and support every mile that you travel. And in honour of our mighty tōrua, [00:54:30] the albatross, I wanted to read a poem by the very beautiful Hone Tūwhare. Day and night, endlessly, you have flown effortless of wing over chest expanding oceans far from land. Do you switch on an automatic pilot? Close your eyes and sleep, Tora. On your way to your home ground at Otago Heads, you tried to rest [00:55:00] briefly at Wai o te mata. But you were shot by ignorant people. Crippled, you found a resting place at Whanganui a Tara, found space at last to recompose yourself. And now, without skin and flesh to hold you together, the division of your aerodynamic parts lies whitening, lit clean by sun and air and water. Children will discover narrow corridors of eeriness [00:55:30] between the suddenness of bulk. Naked, laugh in the gush and ripple, the play of light on water. You are not alone, Taurua. A taniwha once tried to break out of the harbour for the open sea. He failed. He is lonely. From the top of the mountain nearby he calls to you, Hare mai, hare mai, welcome home traveller. Your head tilts, your eyes open to the world.[00:56:00] We love you, Dr. Elizabeth. Kia ora, Megan and George. Awesome. Now, last but not least, we've got our, um, whānau who have travelled, um, here to.. Yeah, I'm just going to give you the mic. Howie, um, you can come up here and do your stuff. Love you long time, brother. Thank you so much. Thank you. Um, [00:56:30] tēnā tātou Um, Elizabeth, tēnā koe. Um, I'm just going to be very short and very sharp. Um, Elizabeth's already sort of touched on, um, a kaupapa that she worked dearly with one of our aunties, um, Aunty Aki Piper, who sadly passed away just a month ago. So thank you for acknowledging her in the house tonight, um, Elizabeth. Um, it really means a lot to our whānau that are here tonight, but also to the rest of our hapū, our whānau back home, and [00:57:00] especially her sister, our mum. Um, so, marere tēnā. Um, 15 years ago, this is about you. Um, but 15 years ago, um, Operation Pātiki was launched with a profound vision, and that was to, quite simply, restore the mauri of our taiao. Led by Hori ki Heretaunga, sisters Aki, Akinihi Paipa, And Margie McGuire knew that this meant starting with the wai.[00:57:30] Te Awau o Mokotuararo became Aunty Aggie's swan song, so to speak. And three days before her passing, she convened what would be her final hui, which just happened to be with a whole lot of Ngati Kahungunu reo tohunga. And as the meeting went, Aunty sort of told them that this kaupapa, and what it meant to not just the hapu, but to the rest of us in our community. But also to the rest of us throughout [00:58:00] Aotearoa. And it is something that she was truly passionate about. Um, and that was the naming, the changing of the name from Clive to.. Um, but, to be very honest, without your help, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, that would not have happened. I don't want to be a bit of a waterworks. Um, this is [00:58:30] a quote from Aunty Aggie, um, when she first met with you. This is her quote. I met this lady, and she was the thing of the thing of the thing. She was fabulous. She reigns ignited in me. The true essence of what it means to be mana whenua, to be mana wahine. Woman doing kaupapa for our people. So, with that, um, on behalf of [00:59:00] our hapu, Dr Elizabeth Kerekere, we'd like to present you with a taonga just recently woven by our sister Ani. The name of this kete, Ani can present it to you, is Te Awa o Mokotuararo. Thank you so much. We'd also like to acknowledge, and this is about [00:59:30] Dr. Elizabeth, but there's one other person that Aunty wanted to adopt. She said to us, uh, three days before she passed, when we rang her, I'm going to find my who, she's going to be my daughter. Um, and Elizabeth's going to be my other daughter. Um, and Kerry, could you come forward please?[01:00:00] This kete we would like to present to you on behalf of our whānau, our hapū. And the name of our kete is Pātiki. That's it. Thank you so much. Kia ora whānau. [01:00:30] Yeah, I'm crying. Um, just in case you didn't realise, um, Kerry.. Uh, Kerry Papey has been my wife's, um, rock in this place. Um, she's my best mate, and yeah, um, I said, If I can't be in that place to look after my wife, I need someone that I can completely trust. Who I know will take multiple bullets. And um, and that's my mate Kerry. Uh, don't be fooled by her [01:01:00] size. Um, back in the day when we played softball, and I used to drink a lot, and we used to go party, and I used to ring up Elizabeth and say, well I'm just gonna go out with the team. And Elizabeth used to say, is Kerry going? And I go, yep. And she goes, okay then. Um, and, um, yeah, so, love you Kerry. And what you probably, some of you may know and don't know, Um, with Elizabeth leaving this place a bit earlier than we had expected, Um, I [01:01:30] had to go back and get a job. And yeah, someone hired me. Um, I got a job. But also, um, not only is Elizabeth's job no longer, Um, Kerry's job is no longer. Um, Kerry was able to look after my wife, um, but also meant that her wife, who's in, um, remission of stage 4 cancer, was able to leave her job. So there's repercussions. Repercussions that those [01:02:00] people that chose to do this. Um, still chose to do this. So Kia Ora, thank you for your support. Um, Kerry, got you for life, love you long time, mate. And, um, and the other shout out is, is to my family. Um, and to Elizabeth's family. Um, you guys, I, there's no words to my beautiful aunties and to my cousins. Um, over there, they're the really good looking ones. That's my family. Um, to my sister [01:02:30] and, and to the rest, they couldn't be here because they did what they needed to do. They stayed home because they got the flu. Uh, Elizabeth and I got the flu, but we managed to get rid of it before this speech. So, look, I'm going to see who's next. Um, the other ones that I will shout out to are all our green whanau. Um, those that are still part of the party, me, yes, under duress. Um, but also those who made us, who made us stand and left [01:03:00] the Green Party because they just could not stomach staying with a party that did this. Um, but as my wife said, still party vote green to get really good candidates in. Um, like the awesome official Collins, like the awesome Stephanie Rogers, like the awesome Darlene who's sitting over here. Uh, we still got really good candidates people, um, that can represent us in the house. Okay, so that is me. Who is next on the list? You, Elizabeth? We're gonna [01:03:30] get a few words from the lady, and then she will probably ask the band to start. And then, and then that's us, okay? Love yous, and um, here we go. Bye bye. Oh, kia ora koutou katoa. um, poa. I hadn't got so far as thinking about saying things right now. [01:04:00] I just want to thank.. All of you, everyone who's traveled, all our whanau, our friends, our community, people who are always here for me. And I hope you always know, I will be always here for you. I'm going to work my way around the town, around the room. Um, not the town. I was serious about dancing. We will be moving some of these tables further [01:04:30] back. Uh, but I'll come around, visit each of you, have a catch up. And, uh, I thought maybe I'd stay here for a couple of terms. And it's ended up to be one, but when we started, because of course, as soon as I employed Kiri, we sat down and had a strategic planning session for the two of us on how we're going to work, and we said, if we only have three years, if that's all we [01:05:00] have, what must we do? And we have ticked off all of the things that we needed to do. And as.. All of the legislation, all of the things that need to happen in this place that affects so many of us. Those of us who are Maori, who are Pacifica, who have disabilities, who live in rural areas. All of the things that need to happen here. I put out that [01:05:30] and the House, and I said, I hope you'll take my call. Several of the mps who came up, including National Enact people, said, I'll take your call. And it is no, it is a waste of time to be putting down people because they have views I disagree with. I will always look for what binds us. I will always look for how we move forward together. Uh, the stuff that happened, [01:06:00] uh, it was hard seeing, uh, all those kind of lies being told about me over and over again. But my communities came out in support. People I didn't know thought, that can't be true. And I'm so, so thankful for that, because actually in the end, like I care what they think. Seriously. Like I care. I got asked today, were you worried that the rest of the Green Party members weren't sitting in their houses? Like, I didn't [01:06:30] notice. I wasn't looking. Um, but in the future, this is still made up of people I care about and I will still be connected with all of these things. Thank you so much. This gift of the speech, my speeches in the house is as Thank you so, so very much. And the kete, oh my gosh. And the gifts other people have given me. Thank you. And all of this, just saying, I [01:07:00] might need to take some of this off to do my best dancing. Um, but thank you. I will treasure all of the things. The very last thing we would like to do is We've got someone, hopefully, with a camera, or get your camera up to you, is um, we would like you all to come into the central place, and just acknowledging that some of my parliamentary colleagues are here, so, and I expect some more of them to come later on, um, you're [01:07:30] always, always welcome. We'd like to invite all of you. To come into this middle and we're gonna look up here and get a photo, a group photo of all of us say, come on over, Koto. Love you, . Let's go people. Father space.[01:08:00] [01:08:30] [01:09:00] . IRN: 3634 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/introduction_to_pride_nz.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Introduction to Pride NZ USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Gareth Watkins INTERVIEWER: TAGS: Aotearoa New Zealand; Library of Congress; National Library of New Zealand; pridenz. com DATE: 9 July 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand CONTEXT: Founder of Pride NZ, Gareth Watkins, introduces the Pride NZ collection and describes its deposit with the National Library of New Zealand TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Kia ora koutou. My name's Gareth Watkins, the founder of PrideNZ. com. Pride NZ is a privately funded community website based in Wellington, New Zealand. The website was launched in 2009 and now contains over 900 audio recordings of interviews and local community events, showcasing the stories and opinions of New Zealand's LGBTI+ Rainbow communities. While the earliest recordings [00:00:30] date back to the 1990s, some of the content goes back even further, with some interviewees remembering growing up in the 1940s and 1950s. Pride NZ wouldn't exist without community support. There have been hundreds of interviewees from the community telling their own stories, as well as event organisers allowing their events to be recorded and shared. The website has three aims. [00:01:00] The Pride NZ collection is not only seen as a treasure today, but will also become a touchstone for generations to come. It's going to allow for people to hear who we were, how we spoke, what our dreams and our aspirations were. Pride NZ is about open, immediate dissemination of content. We don't [00:01:30] embargo or limit access to material. Pride NZ has never seen itself as a permanent forever, archive. We simply don't have the people or digital infrastructure or finance to do this. So as the years have gone by with more and more significant content being recorded, the responsibility of preserving these voices has weighed heavily. [00:02:00] Pride NZ's approach to archiving has been to make sure that the collection is in multiple locations both internationally and in New Zealand. Since 2011, the National Library of New Zealand has been collecting a digital snapshot of Pride NZ in its annual harvest of New Zealand websites. And around the same time, we began sending Pride NZ to the Internet Archive for snapshotting. [00:02:30] In 2019, to make sure high resolution versions of the audio were being archived, we added high quality MP3s to the website. And then a year later, to increase discoverability, we added computer generated transcriptions of the audio. In 2021, the Library of Congress took a snapshot of the website, and this then prompted a discussion with the National Library of New Zealand about depositing the master recordings. And [00:03:00] then in September 2022, the National Library acquired the Pride NZ collection, which was made up of 818 master recordings and 20 folders of related ephemera. So things like flyers, postcards, and programme notes. Accruals to the collection are continuing, with around five new recordings being deposited every month. The National Library deposit also prompted Pride NZ to develop and release a number of datasets [00:03:30] under a Creative Commons license. Now anyone can download detailed metadata about the collection, along with a dataset of geo-referenced locations relating to Rainbow communities. While it's beneficial having the audio in multiple institutions, there are real significant benefits in having the National Library of New Zealand as the primary long-term repository. The National Library has the most robust infrastructure for managing cultural digital collections in New [00:04:00] Zealand. It has a dedicated team committed to managing the files in perpetuity. Through an explicit wording in the deposit agreement and an ongoing face-to-face relationship with Pride NZ, the library understands and is committed to upholding the original intent of the website and participants, that is, open, free access to the content. The Arrangement and Description team at the National Library have professionally described the collection at item level, allowing for greater [00:04:30] discoverability and linking to other collections. They're also in the process of implementing the Homosaurus, an international thesaurus of terms relating to Rainbow communities. It was really important for Pride NZ to have the collection in an institution that cared equally for all of the diverse voices and opinions expressed in the recordings. And finally, Pride NZ believes it's important for heritage institutions, particularly heritage institutions [00:05:00] funded by the State to represent the diversity of experiences and voices in the country. Having the Pride NZ collection preserved by the National Library of New Zealand shows a tangible commitment from the State to honour the experiences of Rainbow communities in Aotearoa New Zealand. IRN: 3565 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rainbow_politicians_ricardo_menendez_march.html ATL REF: OHDL-004699 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093089 TITLE: Ricardo Menéndez March - Rainbow Politicians USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Ricardo Menendez March INTERVIEWER: Regis Perez TAGS: 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Green Party; Member of Parliament; Mexico; Regis Perez; Ricardo Menendez March; Wellington; hospitality; migrants; minimum wage; unemployment DATE: 25 November 2022 YEAR: 2022 LOCATION: Parliament buildings, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington CONTEXT: In this podcast Ricardo Menéndez March from the Green Party talks to Regis Perez about what it's like to be a Member of Parliament. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: So I grew up in Mexico with stories from my family on their political involvement during the Cold War at a time where, um, there was, um, foreign interventions across Latin America by the U. S. and many. Communities were fighting against the rise of the right and that those stories inform my political values. But when I immigrated to New Zealand, [00:00:30] it wasn't until I had lived here for a few years that I had. Started listening, um, to what politi politicians were saying about our migrant communities. That started making me attuned to, to domestic politics, um, and as a hospitality worker, um, working close to the minimum wage, I remember in the 2011 election, um, when I was watching the coverage, um, during one of [00:01:00] my shifts, just watching a clip of people like Winston Peters talking about Typical narratives about migrants buying all the homes and being kind of a cause of so many of society's ills and that to me really struck a chord because I thought, who are these people he's talking about? Like, I'm on a low wage, I like definitely don't have the means to buy a home and most of my peers don't either. And that made me quite angry and, [00:01:30] um, started getting me more engaged and it was until 2014 that I stopped. Through friends who I shared values, um, I managed to get involved as a volunteer in the Green Party 2014 campaign. And, um, since then I've been doing stuff on, um, Their rights of unemployed people and the rights of migrant workers as well overall with the green. Um, how has your experience been working here in Parliament? So as a parliamentarian it has been [00:02:00] Well, it's there's a massive sense of responsibility for the communities that I belong to and I think the job can be what you make of it because it can be quite broad. Um, and I always felt like as an MP, I'm the extension, the parliamentary wing of communities on the ground trying to make change. And what I mean by that is that I'm [00:02:30] still working on things like trying to lift benefits, um, individualized income support, um, support migrant workers, and always applying that as well, a queer lens to that because so many of the changes we're fighting for, so for example, individualizing benefits, which may not seem like a queer issue at first, but, um, but it is because so many of our rules around how people receive support and how people think of family as part of how they receive support are grounded on [00:03:00] Um, and so I often think of this work here as an extension of what I was doing before, just with access to asking questions directly to ministers and getting to hear about the agencies that, that, um, do the work around creating legislation. So, um, quite intense, but very fulfilling, um, comes with yet great sense of responsibility. Being in a government or a parliament with the most [00:03:30] political queer figures in the world, um, how does it feel to be amongst one of those twelve? I mean, I think, I've always been a bit cynical about the sort of branding about having the queerest parliament because for me the, with representation comes responsibility. If we're the queerest parliament in the work and we're not doing everything we can to improve the rights of queer people, then representation becomes a bit of a lip service. And saying that, I do think [00:04:00] what having greater queer representation in parliament is showing is the diversity that exists both in terms of identity, but in ways of thinking that exists within our communities, um, while acknowledging that despite being the queers parliament, we still don't have openly trans and non binary people here. Um, and I think that's worth noting. Um, and so. Yeah, like, it's great, for example, in the Greens, like, there's four of [00:04:30] us out of ten who are openly queer, and that's, um, that just means that, um, we often find ourselves on the same page on those issues, and that makes it, as a team, quite easy to work with, and to then build alliances with the Labour in Peace, who are the other party who have openly queer in peace, but at the same time, um, There will still be differences, and on issues such as the hate speech legislation, we've been quite clear that, you know, um, queer people [00:05:00] should be part of that conversation, and currently they're not, um, and we've got queer people in the party that is drafting the legislation that, um, That in some ways are complicit with excluding queer people from hate speech legislation, right? So I think that's always interesting when we consider the responsibilities that come from being part of the queer community and a parliament that celebrates that representation. At this current moment in time, do you think parliament has progressed towards equality for the LGBTQ plus community? [00:05:30] We've made some, like, important steps and whether it is through Merit Equality or Self ID laws, um, but there is so much more work to do, and part of the problem in my view is that the intersections of different communities are often not thought about when we're drafting legislation. I think the Self ID laws, um, were a great example where. We [00:06:00] had overseas born queer people who were constantly reminding government, Hey, look, like we will be excluded from the legislation. Please improve the legislation or go back to the drawing board. And at no point there were improvements being made to include overseas born queer people, which often will also include queer migrants. Um, and. So I think this is some of the challenges still to come, um, that outside of some [00:06:30] improvements that have been made for often sort of cisgendered and Pākehā queer communities, um, many of our communities continue being left behind, and I think that's where I think the next step should be as well. What more do you think we can do to support trans and non binary people in Aotearoa? Ensuring that we, A, consider, well, consider the needs of the communities in all [00:07:00] policymaking is one step. The second one is to actually engage with communities, um, When policymaking is happening. Um, and I think an example of that would be on, so to give an example of my work where I think there are intersections with the lives of trans and non binary people. One of the issues I've been working on has been, um, health requirements that migrants must pass in order to access. visas. And, uh, [00:07:30] the way that it works is that if you're deemed to have a cost to the healthcare system, you may not get a visa. That often is talked about in the framework of how it impacts disabled people. But what it is not often known is that if you're a trans migrant and, uh, you disclose that you may be seeking gender affirming, um, medical Procedures that, um, then you could be seen as a burden to, um, the public healthcare system and therefore be rejected a visa. And I think [00:08:00] this is why we shouldn't just think of our trans and non binary, um, peers just in the context of like explicitly queer rights legislation, but actually everywhere, because. Trans people are overrepresented in homelessness statistics. Um, trans people are, and there's no, you know, adequate services to address the needs of trans people who are homeless. Trans people are also overrepresented in substance abuse statistics. And yet we, again, [00:08:30] like, there's still missing initiatives that specifically target those communities. And I think this is where we need to do better as a parliament. And with greater representation of trans and non binary people in parliament. Should hopefully help in the future, but at the same time, those of us here still have a responsibility to engage with our trans and non binary peers around this. And I would add, um, on top of those two communities, that [00:09:00] a community that we should also be engaging more with is the intersex community, which.. It tends to also be, um, invisibilized in legislation. And when we continue having non consensual surgeries on intersex babies, you know, I think of the progress we're yet to make. Do you have a sort of future vision for, um, Takatapui people of our country? Yeah, with Takatapui, um, members of, of [00:09:30] our communities, I think, well.. I often look at the work that Elizabeth Kittikate is doing and has been doing for, for so many years. Um, and I, I see often my role as somebody who's To'uiwi to, to actually amplify and support the, of the work that she is doing. Um, I think again, it's about taking the lead from Takatakoi, um, community members about what is it that their need and their aspirations and, and. Part of what Elizabeth [00:10:00] has been calling for is a ministry for rainbow communities that then specifically can have a lens. It's around the needs of different communities, which then filters into how other decisions are being made. And I think that could be something that we could be exploring. Um, but I think for those of us who are in Māori, it is about taking the lead from our peers who are Takatāpui and, um, and simply supporting them in their work. Yeah. Awesome. Um, what can queer people do to support queer politicians? [00:10:30] I mean, first of all, I think hold us to account. Thank you very much. Um. Because our queer identities are not just.. Media opportunities, right? It's about, again, I go back to the responsibility we have. And so we're all richer for when our community is engaging with us to ask us to do better and to give us feedback of the work that we're doing. Um, I think if anything, you know, I, I, I feel supported by the community. And for me, [00:11:00] if anything, the question I think about is more, what is it we need to do better to support our communities, right? Um, but if I think of that sort of mutual relationship where I think we could be doing better is recognizing that in our queer community. We still have a long way to go to combat things like transphobia and racism and fatphobia and a lot of other challenges, right? Like, our queer community is [00:11:30] not monolithic and there's still challenges within our own community. And so, um, when in, when we're engaging with members of the public, I think that's something to, to take into account. And this is why I think, you know, and I think the queer community has actually. You know, progressive queer members of the community and often left wing members of the queer community have had a long history of standing in solidarity with other marginalized groups because we are everywhere because of those intersections. [00:12:00] So I think, yeah, I would put it in terms of support to us. I guess it's more about the accountability because again, we're all stronger for it. Yeah. Do you have any, uh, queer heroes that you have in mind or queer people that you look up to or inspire you? Yeah. I mean, there's just, there's so many. Um, I often, and I often struggle with to name like, I don't know, really high ranking public figures because it's [00:12:30] often the people on the ground that I think about who have often challenged us. Um, like, and, and, and so I guess to. You know, I think of our green movement and some of the queer people who are starting to challenge, um, the gender binary. Think of, you know, people like Danny Marks and Rosemary Peppermint have recently ran a local body campaign like that. That's the people I'm often inspired by, um, [00:13:00] in terms of, um, People at the forefront making change, or even activists like Eliana, who is an intersex activist and, um, went through a really challenging struggle with having her intersex identity and, uh, recognized in official documents. Like, those are the people I often look up to. Um, but it's actually the mahi on the ground and the people on the ground doing it. [00:13:30] Could you share a little bit of your personal journey with, uh, coming to terms with your own identity and also growing up in Mexico as well? Yeah, I, I mean, I grew up in an incredibly Catholic community society. I didn't grow up in a Catholic household, but it was quite confronting to come to terms with my identity when so much of the media around me and. The comments around me were literally violent [00:14:00] towards our communities. I first came out to my first, uh, girlfriend from high school. Um, and I, after coming out to my friend as a bit of a practice run before I kind of had the conversation with her and, um, and despite it being like a really difficult conversation, like I, what really helped me is that underneath it all, she was actually really supportive of. I mean, it's like that we broke up and everything, but she was really supportive [00:14:30] of my identity. And I think that was really helpful. And it was for me really helpful to have, um, uh, a dad who, who, who was deeply supportive. Um, and, and sometimes I do want to highlight the positive experiences of coming out because they, they do exist. Um, I thought the act of coming out in itself is complicated and you know, I think we, we, we should unpack that sometimes later down the track, but, [00:15:00] um, but when I came to Aotearoa as a migrant, there was this kind of weird thing where like, I had come out to basically like my dad and to my close friends from high school. And then I came into a setting where it was like, I had to come out all over again. And so like, and I think this is not come out, but I guess where you often feel unsafe revealing. That you're queer or kind of openly talking about your queerness, um, or again, feeling like it's going to get [00:15:30] identified. And so that process of constantly feeling like you're outing yourself was quite, um, was quite tasking. And like at times I felt unsafe and like in different environments, I felt like I would have to then, um, play straight to the best of my limited ability. Until it kind of became inevitable or somebody would ask a question and, and like, and why speak about it this [00:16:00] way is because there was always that feeling of not feeling safe, right? Um, so I guess that was kind of my initial reflections, but I do feel really lucky that I have a network of people who have been consistently supportive and we all know the difference that it makes for one's mental health for one's. It's just general life outcomes to have people who are supportive. And so I ground myself into a lot when thinking about other members [00:16:30] of the community who don't have those people around them. Working here in Parliament, have you ever had any sort of like treatment change from being an openly, um, you know, open about your sexuality? Have you been treated differently for better or for worse or had any sort of experience like that? I think. Because in my caucus, 40% of [00:17:00] us are queer, it's just so normal, which is great, like, you know, and I would not, I don't think you'd be able to say the same thing about other political parties necessarily. Um, and you know, we have had legislators from National who belatedly came out either after their careers or at the intel of their careers. And then I think, damn, like, it must be really unsafe to be out. Um, in those parties. [00:17:30] Um, so I personally feel like what has really helped not feel like I get a different treatment in Parliament as a result of it is that, um, There's just so many queer people in the Greens. But what I think is different in terms of the treatment is that by being openly queer, you also, your constituents and your community knows that it is safe to approach you if they have needs relating to their identity. And so [00:18:00] it is great to know that some queer migrants are able to reach out. Um, knowing that it's not going to be unsafe to come to issues with me. Um, and I think that's where often a lot of people meet challenges because it may not always be safe for constituents to reach out to their MPs where they have to openly talk about their queerness and being afraid that they may get judged or not supported as a result of their identity. Do you have a sort of approach that you think is best effective [00:18:30] when fighting inequality in any sort of area? I think at all points, it's like working with the community on the ground and realizing that, as I said earlier, that we serve as a parliamentary extension of the work being done in the community. And if we're not working with people on the ground to push for issues, then we're kind of in a little bubble here. And I mean, this place. I mean, it is real life, but it's also not [00:19:00] like the way, you know, like the way that people behave in the house, like you, the way that people yell at each other in the house, like you would probably get smacked if you talk to people the way that people talk to each other in the house. Um, and for me, like on so many of the issues I work with, I often am feeding back to groups in the ground fighting for it and they themselves are sort of feeding and suggesting things that I should be doing. And I think that's. That's super useful because a, I have a direct accountability to members of the community on the campaigns that [00:19:30] I'm running, but B, because of that feedback loop, we're able to then, you know, so for a letter makers, an example that I raised about the health requirements, people are able to then come to me and then we're able to work directly on say either. Working to get visibility in the media or to challenge the minister on someone's specific situation and, um, I know it sounds like the whole working with the community sounds naff and maybe like stereotypical, but I'm always quite [00:20:00] surprised at how it's not necessarily the norm and can often feel like the exception, not so much in the Greens, but just, I would say just Parliament more generally. Yeah. IRN: 3586 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/new_zealand_aids_memorial_quilt_display_2023_presentations.html ATL REF: OHDL-004706 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093096 TITLE: Presentations - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt Display USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Bena Jackson; Bill Logan; Chanel Hati; Courtney Johnston; Jane Bruning; Jeremy Naylor; Kjel Griffiths; Michael Bancroft; Rangimoana Taylor; Richard Tankersley; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Tīwhanawhana; Welby Ings INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Bill Logan; Body Positive; Bruce Burnett; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; Chanel Hati; Courtney Johnston; Daniel Fielding; Dowse Art Museum; Gareth Watkins; Gay Task Force; Georgina Beyer; HIV stigma; HIV transmission; HIV/AIDS; HIV/AIDS; Jane Bruning; Jeremy Naylor; Joe Rich; Kjel Griffiths; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Michael Bancroft; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Peter Wells; Positive Speakers Bureau; Positive Women Inc; Rangimoana Taylor; Roger Smith; Russell Wells; Stephanie Gibson; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Tom McLean; Tīwhanawhana; Welby Ings; Wellington Gay Task Force; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); injection drug user (IDU); rural DATE: 10 March 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington CONTEXT: Presentations at the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt display. The event was held at the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa on 10 March 2023. A special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: [00:00:30] [00:01:00] Hello to all of you, New Zealanders. You [00:01:30] are the ones who are safe. You are here. I want to thank you all for coming to this important event, Te Papa Tongarewa. Te Papa Tongarewa. Thank you for your mana.[00:02:00] To all, everyone today, we must always remember what happened those many years ago. Those people who at that time were ostracized because they were gay. Those people who [00:02:30] actually fought with us. So that we could be accepted as a community that is very valuable to these islands. Te Papa Tongarewa is all of our, it belongs to all of us. We are just holding it to keep it for future generations. [00:03:00] And when we talk about.. Te maru, te maru o tuanui tō tātou haere nei te Papa Tongarewa, that you are under the shelter of our National Museum. Te Papa Tongarewa. Te Papa is short for Papa Hau, which is like an oblong, um, sacred, uh, treasure box, which we, this treasure box holds the treasures of [00:03:30] our nation. And what we do say is.. He aha ta mea nui? He thangata. He thangata. He thangata. You ask me what is the most important thing in creation, then I say to you, It is the people. It is the people. It is the people. And we, our gay, our lesbian, our transgender people, we are [00:04:00] people. And some people have forgotten that. We are people. Nō reira, e ngā iwi, e ngā mana, e ngā karangarangatanga. Tēnā koutou. Tēnā koutou.[00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] Um, our chief executive has joined us on stage and so I just wanted to invite you to say a few, a few words, um, and then we'll [00:06:00] complete the process. So that she has another moment to think about her speech. Um, I just wanted to acknowledge the children, the woman, and the man that passed that are, you know, that are in the memories of the quilts killed her. Well, kia ora tātou. I wasn't actually meant to be at work today, and I tried to just slip in the back quietly, uh, and not be up on the stage, but, um, kia ora. Ko [00:06:30] Courtney Johnston tōku tumu whakarae mo te papa. Um, Sorry, because I have walked in. I don't want to go over anything, but I do want to acknowledge the passing of Georgina Byer, uh, this week, um, as we come together in this moment of, I think what is both, um, commemoration and celebration, you know, of, um, deep sadness and revisiting a time that [00:07:00] we hoped that the, the challenge and the discrimination and the hatred faced by people at the time that this quilt was made, that it was made to stand up to, that it was made to bring people together to provide um, A quilt is a cloak of protection in some ways. It's a sign of love, um, of mourning, but also of resistance, and I think every generation hopes that we will [00:07:30] no longer need these stands, but we find that we keep on having to come together in stands of both resistance and allyship. As well. So, um, it's not the first time I've got to be in the presence of the quilt when I worked out at the Dowse. We brought the quilt out there and met with members of the community and people who had been there at the time. And every time I am struck by.. Just the love and the care that has gone into this [00:08:00] work and the need to keep bringing it out and connecting it with people because our history is so fragile and it is lost so quickly, um, and the experiences of when one generation they can only really be shared by the next generation and the next by coming together to tell stories and to share experiences. So I'm very grateful that we have this opportunity, um, that we get to be the guardians of such an important part of Aotearoa's history and this connection to a global [00:08:30] history. Um, but also to have this chance to keep coming together, to keep remembering, but also to keep turning our eyes forward, uh, standing, I think, in solidarity and with love, um, with sadness, uh, but also, I think, of course, with pride. And some joy and some flamboyance, because, you know, the quilt is also filled with those things as well. So thank you for being here today, and thank you for leading Te Papa being a place where we can gather. Um, and sorry if [00:09:00] that didn't all make sense. Too much sense. But, um, it's, uh, museums are incredible places because we get to be filled with emotion. Um, and to bring people together in these moments never stops being incredibly special. So thank you very much for being here today. Kia ora.[00:09:30] [00:10:00] Holy.[00:10:30] Kiana. Thanks everyone for the beautiful start to this event. Um, my name's Bena. I work here in the public programs team. I'm just gonna run through a little bit of housekeeping for our talks, and then I will introduce. our first speaker today. Um, we have a very incredible lineup of speakers [00:11:00] here. Um, I'm actually amazed. Um, and each of those speakers will have 10 to 15 minutes up here. Um, and then, uh, they'll hand over to the next person. I understand that many of you will be, um, have ducked out of work or other obligations today. So, um, we understand if you need to come and go. Uh, in between talks, please just, um, make your way out as quietly as you can. Um, we'll have a short break about halfway through [00:11:30] and expect that all the talks will wrap up about 1. 30. I understand it's a big day, but there's a lot, there's a lot of amazing people to hear from. Um, and lastly, just some acknowledgements, um, first of all to Ruben from, um, Legans who has put so much into organizing this event and has really brought it together. Um, to all of our speakers, Michael, Bill, Welby, Jane, Cal, Jeremy, um, Chanel, and to Claire and Roger who have also contributed today. Um, it's amazing to have your generosity and [00:12:00] time here. Um, there are a number of organisations who have contributed today as well. The Positive Speakers Bureau, the Lesbian and the Gay Archives, Te Pūranga Takatāpui o Aotearoa and Te Whanau Whanau. Um, everyone from Te Papa who has contributed to this event and to the care of the quilt. And, and of course finally to everyone who has contributed too. Um, and is represented and remembered by the quilt. Um, and not just the four blocks that we have on display here, but, um, all 16, [00:12:30] Hau Pei Te Papa, and, and more elsewhere as well. So I am going to hand over, first of all, to, um, our very first speaker. Michael Bancroft, um, Michael has provided me with an exceptional bio today. Um, Michael Bancroft was a Catholic priest in Auckland in 1988, when asked by a 44 year old Catholic with AIDS to assist him and to conduct his funeral. Thirty five years later, Michael has accompanied over 140 H I v positive, [00:13:00] mainly gay men, and conducted over 100 AIDS related funerals. He became the guardian of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt in 2003 until 2018, and was responsible for its handover to Tepa in 2012. Um, he came out and le and has sis and since, um, left the priestly ministry in 1999. tested positive for HIV in 2003 and still remains involved with the community. Significantly, um, Michael has not conducted an AIDS related funeral since [00:13:30] 2011. Michael, I'll hand over to you. Michael will introduce the next two speakers. E te Haere mai te Whanganui a Tāra. E te marae te whanau te purangi tapuhi o Aotearoa. Haere mai ki [00:14:00] te kou matua, te whanau, tamariki, manuhiri. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Good morning. Greetings to you all. As you've just heard, I'm Michael. As a funeral celebrant. I get very annoyed when people stand up at microphones and say, I haven't prepared anything, and then go on and on and on. Well, I [00:14:30] prepared, and at 11 o'clock last night I was changing it, in my head, and sitting here just now I'm changing it again. Firstly, I would like to pay tribute and honour the beloved people who are represented on the quilts here present. and those that we are seeing behind us on the screens.[00:15:00] It's not something that I'm proud of, but it is something that I am very privileged by the fact that I could stand here all day going through one after the other and telling you something of their story. But that is just not possible. I encourage you to go onto the website. And read through [00:15:30] the stories that are contained there. And in so doing, I usually say the thank you at the end, but I want to say it at the beginning. To Te Papa for receiving the kaunga of the quilt back in 2012. And to Stephanie Gibson somewhere, yes. That we work together to bring that [00:16:00] about, and all of her team at that time, some of whom are present today, how quickly all those years have passed. And crouched down on the floor here, you have Gareth Watkins, who's recording things. Well, when you look at all those images behind you, Gareth and his partner, Roger, spent three days in [00:16:30] Auckland, way back in about 2011, photographing every single.. So that we have it as part of our heritage. So we have them to thank for the beauty of the gift that is held in that fashion. I was present also when many of these quilts were made. Though I never actually got to make any [00:17:00] of them. Over on the On the left hand side here, the second one up is one that commemorates and remembers Russell Wells. You may not have known Russell, but most of you will have heard of his brother Peter. I was conducting a funeral of my very first [00:17:30] person that was named, or wasn't named, but Peter, in my introduction. And this person came up to me and said, That was a bloody good service. Will you do mine? And Russell was the second one. Followed by so many more. I brought with me a photograph of my parents.[00:18:00] Taken just three months before my mother died in 1976. Followed 11 months later by my father. Both of them through illness, 52 at the time. But that is not my parents. That is.. The persons that are contained in this image, [00:18:30] just as when you look at these quilts, they hold the memories of all the beautiful people that have been part of our lives, part of your families, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, grandparents, lovers and partners. And [00:19:00] each of them is precious. Because they hold the memories for us. Think back over the last few weeks, television has showed us scores of people clutching, photographs, muddied, ruined, and people saying We've lost everything but the photos of their [00:19:30] families that they've taken out of those muddy waters and the sludge and slush in so many parts of rah. They now hold those ever more precious. And that's why these quilts here, and the ones that are held by Te Papa, are so precious, because they help us in telling [00:20:00] the story, the story of the people that they are shown. And the quilt project, I could, again, give a whole day's lecture on the start of it. But it began on the 27th of November in San Francisco in 1985. But down the back here, there is a quilt in the name of Peter [00:20:30] Cuthbert, 1988. I never knew him, but some of you did, because he was here in Wellington. And he was the first person in Aotearoa, New Zealand, to have a quilt made in his honour. And directly behind him is one for Tom McLean, the author who, as far as I know, wrote the first what I'll call local AIDS related book [00:21:00] called If I Should Die. And right here, where we are, here in Wellington, the very beginning of what we are doing today. And why did people make quilts? Because way back in those days in the United States. Cemeteries wouldn't take bodies. Funeral directors wouldn't bury [00:21:30] them. People didn't know what to do with them. And if you think, yeah, that was America. No, come back right here. Some of you will know the days of Ward 10 at Auckland City Hospital. It was known as the AIDS ward. And just like COVID in recent times. It was masks, gloves, PPE gear, signs on doors, [00:22:00] patients referred to as AIDS victims. And if you thought there was privacy, no. In those days, the patient room lists were in reception. You'll remember those days generally. And everyone who was HIV had a purple dot by their name. So once you got to know what the purple dot meant, you could just walk around and, [00:22:30] oh yeah, that one's got it, that one's got it. And that's what people did. The AIDS victims, as they called them. And it didn't stop there. People died. They were placed in a body bag. Removed. Into a coffin. No embalming. No viewing. No personal family farewells. [00:23:00] Many families just wanted it all to be kept hush hush. I was often told, Don't mention AIDS at the funeral, Michael. Don't wear a red ribbon, because they'll all know then. Because that was the days, remember, when every film star and other person would appear on TV wearing a red ribbon. But it became an AIDS identifier, [00:23:30] part of the stigma. I remember one rural family Ahem. where they ordered that there be no pofters at our son's funeral. That was how they said it. And the church happened to say, we don't want anyone to know we've held an AIDS funeral here either.[00:24:00] So no wonder people wanted to make quilts to remember. Now there are 16 of these blocks, and about 10. that are held by the AIDS Foundation, now known as the Burnett Foundation in Auckland, which are still displayed and available to people for small little [00:24:30] gatherings. During the early 2000s, As the numbers of AIDS deaths started to decline, so did the making of quilts. It wasn't a big problem in New Zealand, but our closest neighbours, Australia, when I last visited them during one of their displays, they had a hundred [00:25:00] and twenty blocks. And they couldn't display them. They, they were having to spend thousands of dollars to store them and to move them around. Because they were so big and so bulky. And in America, I know I've got it here somewhere, there were something like 94, 000 of them. Can you [00:25:30] imagine that? 94, 000. And I think there is.. Um, Welby, in that book that your story is in, I think it's got the photo of the Washington Memorial. Yes, Welby's nodding. Have a look at that, and you'll see the whole of the Washington Memorial, where they displayed them. So, once upon a time, there was [00:26:00] AIDS, there still is. But fortunately, the gift of medication, treatments, General care means that there are people now here in Aotearoa who have been living with the virus for 35, almost 40 years.[00:26:30] There was a time I would never have stood in a gathering like this and said, I'm positive. I don't look it, do I? Plenty of guts. I haven't faded away. But this year is my 20th anniversary. And my specialist looks at me and says, Mike, you don't have to worry about being HIV positive, you need to do something about your stomach [00:27:00] before you have a heart attack. Well, I've had that three times or a stroke, hopefully not. You know, but that is how, in a sense, we've, it's kind of almost needed to be talked about anymore. So, as we gather today, with gratitude for [00:27:30] people who put their memories together, so that today, 35 years later, we can gather and remember. and keep them alive. We are grateful to them, but to people like Benna and Ruben and the team here at Te Papa and [00:28:00] others who unbeknown to me have contributed to today, who help our whole nation to be reminded. Because now we are kind of not in the AIDS era anymore. Now we say, after COVID. You know, we relate to things. And yet, you've only got to open up your map and you find out, the [00:28:30] world map that is. And you find out that there are still millions and millions of people being infected and dying. Thanks to Burnett Foundation, New Zealand AIDS Foundation of the past. We are fortunate that we are at where we're at, and we have the Foundation and others, Legands, keeping part of that [00:29:00] history of our community in our faces. So once again, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you to Papa Leggings and those of you who put this together today and I'm here till they kick me out at three o'clock. If anyone wants to ask about any of the quilts, I just didn't have time, unfortunately, to go [00:29:30] one by one through them. Keep the memories alive in your hearts and your living. Thank you. Our next speaker today. [00:30:00] is someone I've spent most of my adult life hearing the name of and met today. The well, one and only Bill Logan. Bill was involved in setting up the AIDS Support Network and the AIDS Foundation and was spokesperson for the Wellington Gay Task Force during the 1985 86 homosexual law reform campaign.[00:30:30] He's been involved in queer politics ever since, now mostly on trans rights. He's a councillor and celebrant, and we will now.. be privileged to share some of the gift that he has been to the community. Tēnā[00:31:00] koutou katoa. Thank you very much, Michael, for that kind introduction. And thank you to the people who've arranged this from all the different organisations coming together. AIDS is a story of love, of death, of pride, of progress. It's a story of tragedy. AIDS ended [00:31:30] many wonderful, good, young lives. Others of us who did not die, even quite resilient people. were left quite scarred by it. But it's also a story which involves some triumph because these were lives which overall made our world a far better place than it otherwise would have been. Peter Cuthbert's quilt, the first of them, is here. He and his partner Daniel [00:32:00] Fielding made a huge impact on the gay community in this city. Arthur's quilt is here. He was a towering figure in this town. Others with quilts here were more private. Uh, they represent the vast population, uh, who were affected by AIDS. People, uh, might call them ordinary. Now that's, that's hardly right. The [00:32:30] quilt. It represents more, though, than the wonderful individuals who have panels here. It depicts a phase in our history. Uh, it represents a generation, uh, of gay men, a generation which was devastated, but which also built the foundation for a far better world than there had been. The story begins for me, uh, as I was coming to terms with Being gay, 40 years [00:33:00] ago, at the very beginning of the 80s, until about that time, until the beginning of the 80s, it was a rare man and an unusually brave man who came out as gay. Those who came out in those earlier years have a hugely important and special place in queer history. The, the 80s though, as the 80s began, homosexuality was still, it was still, [00:33:30] Socially pretty unacceptable, but, and it was still, I suppose, a bar to progress in most careers, but there was, by this time, uh, starting to be an increasing sense of hope among us. Uh, uh, uh, there had been some good partying and some good fun for years, of course. Before, it had been quite discreet. Uh, it had involved considerable fears of being found out. [00:34:00] And it included small numbers of people. But by the beginning of the 80s, things were changing, with much larger numbers of people getting involved, uh, in gay activities. Much less fear, much more hope for a brighter future. I was involved in the Gay Switchboard, which also included some of the young. Gay students on the campus up at the hill, [00:34:30] up the hill here at the, uh, I was a very junior member of the staff there. And we were all reading articles and hearing stories, uh, of this mysterious gay plague in America. And I was asked to facilitate, uh, a meeting, uh, to seriously discuss what it was all about. Perhaps 10 or 12 of us [00:35:00] met in a science seminar room, uh, with a guy from the Department of Health, uh, who had been following these developments, a bloke called Dr. John Clements. Actually, Dr. Clements couldn't tell us very much. Yes, there did seem to be something happening, something involving gay men getting a variety of different cancers and infections and.. Dying rather rapidly, but [00:35:30] nobody really knew what was happening, or even if there was a single underlying cause. He didn't know if it was likely to find its way to New Zealand, and he thought, yes, it was something to be kept an eye on by the health authorities and the medical profession. But we were frightened, uh, but this was, this was a long way away, and we told each other. that it affected only [00:36:00] a very small number of people. As time went on, uh, it became more difficult to ignore. I, for one, however, remained in denial as long as I possibly could. I guess that meeting that we had must have been in 1982, and it really cannot have been so very much later. that the gay community had to start confronting the reality. Uh, what came [00:36:30] to be known as AIDS was on its way here. The science developed, we learned about HIV, the virus which causes AIDS, and we learned that condoms were hugely protective. Bruce Burnett. came back from America and started organizing us, working with Phil Parkinson in Wellington. They approached me and badgered me to get involved. Uh, there [00:37:00] was a dual focus, uh, on prevention and on care for people with AIDS. And we set up the AIDS Support Network, which became the AIDS Foundation, uh, and now has been so appropriately renamed. The Burnett Foundation. This, this was a terrifying time, because we knew so little. AIDS itself was terrifying, but the [00:37:30] homophobic and sexphobic panic which AIDS generated in the community was even more terrifying. And we as a community had to prepare ourselves for what was about to come. We had to prepare our community. And we had to prepare our medical advisors. Phil Parkinson, who is a remarkable man, uh, would give me a regular pile of readings, including from the [00:38:00] New England Medical Journal. And I would take them, uh, to the main gay doctor. In Wellington at the time, John Miller, it was partly to get him to explain them to me, uh, but he was partly to ensure that he was up to speed on the subject. It, it wasn't long before the first guy, uh, with AIDS arrived here right at the moment, uh, that the social panic was moving toward its height.[00:38:30] This guy's name was Gary. He came back home to Wellington from Australia quite ill. His family was freaked out. The media found out. They freaked out. The medical officer of health found out. She freaked out. And, inevitably, many of us were freaked out too. Luckily, Gary, when he arrived in Wellington, immediately rang the gay switchboard. And we were able to do some [00:39:00] calming down. Gary needed a doctor, so I took him to see Dr. John Miller, the doctor I had been reading medical journal articles with. It was Saturday, and we had a cup of tea around John's kitchen table, and I left them to talk. Later, later John rang me, and he confessed, sheepishly, that after Gary had [00:39:30] left, he had boiled the cup. Which he had drunk out of. Now John knew this was silly, but he needed to be sure. The fear of AIDS had led the man who actually knew more about AIDS than almost anyone else in Wellington to become completely irrational in the face of the fear, of that fear. [00:40:00] That irrational fear of AIDS was soon to lead to some of the things that Michael was talking about. Hospitals putting people with AIDS into isolation wards. People with AIDS having to use disposable cutlery. And having medical staff wear sort of space suit costumes. Fears of catching AIDS in a lift or off doorknobs. [00:40:30] Families feared gay sons. This was a period in which it was quite terrifying to have AIDS. Not only were people with AIDS dying very quickly after diagnosis, but they often lived really very difficult lives, cut off from their families and subject to reactions of terrible fear and abuse. We did our best to undercut the [00:41:00] fear and abuse and support people with AIDS to live with dignity and care, but it was a difficult time. This wave of homophobia and AIDS phobia also helped to fuel the 1985 86 campaign against homosexual law reform. Norman Jones, the Member of Parliament leading the campaign against us, spouted some of the nastiest bile that had been heard in New Zealand public [00:41:30] discourse. Thugs on.. street demonstrations wore t shirts with the slogan gay plus gay equals AIDS. If you think about it, it might have been not have been an entirely sane decision to mount a campaign for for homosexual law reform in the midst of an AIDS epidemic. And in the midst of its attendant panic, but just as our opponents claimed that, uh, lifting the criminal sanctions against [00:42:00] gay men would spread HIV and made, we made the point that lifting the criminal sanctions was the only way to encourage people at risk to seek advice. Ultimately, homosexual law reform was not only a matter of human rights, but also a necessary public health measure. So the story of the early stages of the AIDS epidemic in this country [00:42:30] were woven together with the Campaign for Homosexual Law Reform. Tom's story, and Michael talked a little about Tom, uh, is so much a part of that. Tom McLean was a little Scotch freelance journalist and tarot card reader who hung out in the Gay Community Centre in Bullcott Street, which was the headquarters of the Gay Task Force. Uh, it seems as I look back that that winter of [00:43:00] 1985 was unusually bleak and cold. But perhaps it was the social and political atmosphere that saved my memory of the weather. The fundamentalists were collecting for their petition and people were signing it. Uh, in churches and schools and even mental hospitals. There was pressure to sign, and people signed with great gusto, some of them many times. It was the largest petition [00:43:30] ever in the history of New Zealand. It was highly funded, massive campaign. There was no way we could match it. But Tommy did what Tommy could, and Tommy was out on Lambton Quay. Lunchtime, after lunchtime, after bitterly cold lunchtime. He'd come back and thaw out in front of our heater in the gay community centre. And he'd cough a lot. And we were worried about him. And we [00:44:00] encouraged him to go and see Dr. John. He had a test, and he had HIV. Tom's main income was from tarot card reading in a market that was just across the road here on the corner of Cable Street and Taranaki Street. The owner of that market learnt that Tommy had AIDS and kicked him out of his store. Well, we had a meeting with the owner and told him that we thought we could put the market out of [00:44:30] business if he failed to reverse that decision. We thought we could attract a few people to a demonstration or two outside his market. The market owner said it was all a big mistake and misunderstanding and Tom was welcomed back. The story of Paul Noble and Philip Bailey, whose quilts are here, is another story of where AIDS and homosexual law [00:45:00] reform intersect. Uh, Paul and Philip, uh, were a beautiful, athletic couple. Uh, they'd been a hairdressing salon in Cube Street. Philip the hairdresser. I met them when they rang me up very early in the homosexual law reform campaign, before Fran Wild's bill had been introduced. But, we already knew [00:45:30] that there were going to be important moves. At that time, there were not many people who were in a position to take roles as public representatives for our cause. Many felt too young or inexperienced. Others had jobs to lose. I was a Marxist revolutionary in my early thirties with a little bit of experience speaking and no professional prospects. So I ended up on television. My first experience on television was [00:46:00] pretty terrifying. Uh, it was in many respects the central event of my coming out. Uh, and um, I've been asked to respond to a statement against homosexual law reform by the local cardinal. Anyway, an hour or two after this interview went to air, and just after a call I got from my puritanical maiden aunt, Philip, the hairdresser, rang me. He started off by [00:46:30] thanking me for doing the interview. and for representing the gay community. Then he went on and said very, very sternly that I should not ever go on television again without getting my hair checked by him or Paul and trimmed if necessary. So I got, I got to know Philip and Paul quite well. Uh, they would actually ring me up every few weeks for me to come in and get my hair.[00:47:00] The highest point of the campaign of homophobia and AIDS phobia, uh, that, uh, we experienced was what we called the Nuremberg Rally, outside parliament on the 24th of September, 1985. This was, and let me see if I can get a picture of it. Ah, here it is. Uh, this was a highly staged event, uh, [00:47:30] organized by the Coalition of Concerned Citizens to present the anti gay petition, uh, the homophobes had been working on. They rallied under the slogan for God, for country, for family. It was really a pretty fearsome thing. Several of the people commemorated in the quilts. played an active role, uh, on that day, uh, jumping the [00:48:00] barriers. One of them, a lovely friend and activist and artist, Neil Costello, uh, who designed some of the most effective posters of our campaign. And they were Paul and Philip. Uh, and as you can see, they were arrested. That's Paul at the back and Philip in the front. And there's another photo, which I'm rather fond of.[00:48:30] Those two photos were taken by Kevin Green. With the Nuremberg Rally, the homophobes had overplayed their hand. Middle New Zealand didn't like it. And the tide shifted in our direction. This was a time of massive conversation in families and workplaces, in sports clubs and bars. [00:49:00] People discovered that they had gay relatives and gay friends. They learned about AIDS and HIV. They're all willing of hearts and minds. There's a sea change in our favor. And within less than a year, the first Major step in homosexual law reform got through parliament with the decriminalization of male homosexuality. And the way was prepared for the later changes. Later that year, Paul and Philip went to the Gay [00:49:30] Grames in San Francisco. I think they both won medals. Philip was a diver. Paul got a medal for the shot put. In those times, there were some good parties. But the virus continued. Friends died. Tommy was writing a book, If I Should Die. It was about his life with AIDS. He became very ill. He finished his book [00:50:00] and it was sent to the publishers. What he wanted was to live long enough to see his book published and to die at home. A group gathered to support him living at home. Some friends, some volunteers, lesbians, Christians. Well, his book was published, and he was there when it was launched by the, uh, then Minister of Health, a very young Helen Clark.[00:50:30] And then, Tom died very peacefully at home, very early in the morning, three days later. As Tom instructed, There were no bagpipes at his funeral, and the group who look after Tom met again to make the quilt that you see here, and that's over there. There were lots of groups caring for people dying of AIDS around the country. Groups with few other connections [00:51:00] among themselves except through the person who was dying. Caring for someone who is dying can be a profound collective experience. For a time, making a quilt was one of the grieving rituals that we had that helped us adjust to ending what we had experienced. I don't remember the names of the people who are in this picture. The older woman was Honor, I think. Honor Lee, [00:51:30] if I'm not mistaken, a Christian woman from Northland. But they are representative of the much larger group around Tom and that team is representative of many teams around the country. And the virus went on, with friends dying around us. Philip died, Paul died. There were four Wellington guys I knew well. who flattered together in Sydney. Sweet, generous, clever, lively young [00:52:00] men. They had some great times. On visits to Sydney, I stayed with them twice. Jerome, my partner back then, and I did Mardi Gras together one year with them. A magical time. Three of those guys died in the 80s or early 90s. The fourth was so shattered that, uh, he became almost a hermit. I made a list of names I can remember [00:52:30] who died of AIDS. 45 names I can remember. The people who should be together with me in our rocking chairs are just not around. But they lived. They partied. And they made a better world. [00:53:00] So I want to introduce Will B. Ings now. Um, he, uh, he was expelled from Te Awa Mutu College for being gay in the 1970s. As an activist, he was heavily involved in the 1980s and 90s homosexual rights campaigns, during which time he was arrested multiple times. And he's currently a professor of narrative design. A filmmaker and an author. [00:53:30] Pleased to welcome my friend, Will Beings, up here. Okay. Kia ora mai tatou. Na mihi nui aku pia kotou katoa. E na mana, e na reo, e na mate, e na whanau aotearoa. Tena koutou, tena koutou, tena koutou katoa. E te pepeha ko, [00:54:00] um, um, um, Maungutauturi, te maunga ko Arapuni, Um, I'm very humbled. You know, I, I got here a bit early and I walked in. I thought I was, they flew me down on Flash airplane Lin, and, um, I thought I'll be [00:54:30] cool. And I, I walked in and my mate's quilt was over there and I wasn't. All right. And I think, um, uh, Let me tell you about this, the tap room was a shithole. The tap room was a, a little pub, uh, in Auckland. And I was, uh, I was up north, and I came down, so I'd come off a farm. And that's where [00:55:00] I met Ian. So, um, as a, as a rural gay man, I didn't really fit in very well into, I didn't feel I fitted in very well in the gay world. And, uh, To show how naïve I was when I went in, the smell of emul We used emul nitrate on the farm to, when we were, um, hunting possums, when we were killing possums, because you use cyanide paste and if you breathed it in, you had to race the heart to get yourself a little toxic, this was before Osh, and, [00:55:30] um, and, uh, and I went in and I just sort of smelled like And that's not the good, that's not how you start a conversation in a gay pub, it really isn't. But here's this guy, and I looked down on his pants, and he had a mud line just up, which would have come from wearing gumboots. And I asked him how the milk fever was, and he knew what it was, and he's the first man I ever fell in love with. with [00:56:00] and uh, he wore brushed cotton pajamas to bed and he gave me a poem for my birthday and my politics turned on its head because I had fallen in love and um, I still miss him. I still miss him. So I wasn't going to make quilts. I thought it was for, you know, I thought it was a whole lot of kind of public grieving and I'm quite a private [00:56:30] man. But, um, we, we lived on a, a, a farm, he was a farm worker, and I used to, you know, I had another job, but I was working on the farm with him, and, and, uh, the quilt I made for him was, so I can't sew, I'm crap at it, and, um, so I, but I could paint, so I painted a, a portrait of him, and, um, Around the edge you'll see over there is the tow rope we used for our tractor to pull the car through the mud. And, um, [00:57:00] that's baling quine, that blue, that's baling quine around the edge of it. And those are four views of four seasons out our windows, um, of our house. Um, It's something that a lot of people don't realize is the proportion, the size of the quilt is the size of a burial plot, and, um, Some things, you know, listening, listening to both of you, and, um, remembering some things that have faded.[00:57:30] I, I remember, um, taking a, uh, a friend in the back of my Land Rover, trying to find an undertaker who would.. Who prepare his body. We couldn't find anybody. You know, and um, there's a, there's an invisible part to these quilts. Beyond the love and commemoration, there are invisible things. Um, [00:58:00] and um, Kevin, sorry, Ian, we'll see in a moment why Kevin comes up. Ian, um, when he gave me this birthday present, which was a poem, which is not what you give a pookie out to a farm kid, you know, but um, I'll put it on his desk. Quilt, and um, it's from a poem by Yates, it's a poem by Yates, and the old name is [00:58:30] Arrech, which is for the cloths of heaven. Arrech is a, an obscure Irish god of death, but also of fire. And um, it's faded now, you can't even read it. I've always thought this is what the quilts were, that they were a gesture of love. It said, um, had I the heavens embroidered cloth in raw silk? [00:59:00] and silver light, the blue and the dim and the dark cloths of night and light and half light. Well, I would lay those cloths under your feet, but I, being poor, I have only my dreams. I have spread my dreams under your feet. Tread softly, [00:59:30] because you tread on my dreams. Referred to the laying out of these quilts, they normally lie on the ground. And people walk past them. And I can never get out of my mind that they are dreams. They are the things that go, reach beyond words. They are the grief and love and joy and hope and pain. And we don't walk on them, [01:00:00] we walk past them. So, um, the quilt was a hard thing for me to make. Because I'm not a public person and, um, uh, grief for me is something that happens when you hold your pillow in bed at night and go to sleep. Um, but I, I realized that our, our men's lives [01:00:30] were going to disappear because we had lived a history of being erased and for so long as we remain invisible, we remain vulnerable. Boy, um, I undertook to make a quilt, but then, as I said, I'm crap at sewing, so, um, I, um, went to a workshop, these things were amazing, they were, like, nobody tells a drag queen [01:01:00] how to sew, so, and they had pinched most of the fabric for their quilts, you know, but, and, but there were mums and sisters. And, um, friends, this was a collection of a whole spectrum of people, and they would help you. And I saw that intersection between love and grief. And it was a community that had been brought together by [01:01:30] somebody who was no longer here. And mums became mums of all of us who'd been thrown out of home. They became loyal. We became the new sons and they became our moms and our sisters. And even within our community, which is not a single thing, it's hugely divided. It was, then it still is. Bridges were made between those things because of love. And, um, you know, [01:02:00] Michael talked about something that we're, we're, we're team still sends a shiver down my spine. So this was the AIDS ward and we were getting our men out of there as fast as we could over to the hospice and do a voice. road because nurses could refuse to treat, they could refuse to treat you. And it was so stigmatizing. It was such a terrible thing. And, um, and we were trying to find homes because [01:02:30] in the end, it doesn't matter how much love you have in your heart. You can't nurse someone at the end. You can't, you're holding a body in the shower and they can't stand up and you can no longer, no matter how much you love, you can't, you can't do it anymore. You have to have help. You're fucking not going for help at Ward B, you know, at Ward 10. You, you, you go and find people in your ward of [01:03:00] wider family. And I don't just mean queer people, I mean the people who love and support us. And those hospices were amazing places. And, um, um, and to give an example of this, of how toxic the other side was. I was teaching woodwork, um, at the time I made this, this quilt. And, um, uh, we had, uh, the, the, the enjoy around us. My age was really high, and, um, these guys knew I [01:03:30] was gay, like I was out, but they still kind of told the joke at the meeting about what's age, it's an arse injected death sentence. There was this stuff that was considered funny at the time, and you sit there scowling at them, and they go, just a joke. But I always remember the, um, cause I hadn't heard the example you gave, but I'd been having a cup of tea, and, uh, I took my cup out to the kitchen, and, uh, Came back [01:04:00] and then I thought, oh shit, I didn't clean it. I just left it out there. So I went out and they were scouring it out with jiff, you know. And you, you, you, the thing is in the moment, you just have to be strong. There's no room to be weak, but it kind of is cumulative. I think of myself as a strong man, but I can't watch movies around AIDS. I [01:04:30] can't, I can't do it. It's just one of the few things, and I, it's hard to come in here and see. The man we love, on a quilt that's cracked, now and, anyway, um, so you know, you throw yourself into protest, and um, and at the time one of the things that we forget is that many of these people [01:05:00] are vibrant, living, powerful people who help move our society to a better place. I'm working on a, a documentary at the moment about the, the period of the law reform, and looking back through archives and going, oh god, he was dead within two years. All these people who helped shape this world, where we can sit in the National Museum and talk from our heart with each other, the pictures that we have of them, [01:05:30] they're the residue of something that had a terrible cost. And um, so I'll just leave with this. My second partner also died of AIDS in 1998, and uh, Kevin held the national title in the triple jump in New Zealand, and uh, he, I made that quilt at home, there's no sewing Um, but he, he [01:06:00] used to talk about in, in, in triple jumping, everything in the jump is about the run up. It's about the run up to the edge of it. And he said, this is the hardest run up to the longest jump. And that's what I tried to do with the quilt. To give him, give him the wings to pass over. And in a way to give [01:06:30] us the wings for the generations to come. To pass through. And if we have a Critical facility, so we don't allow disinformation and misinformation to create horrors of things that need common sense and balance. If we don't wind ourselves up on crack, and actually in a time of crisis, we need truth and we need strength, and we need Aroha, [01:07:00] we need what's in this room. So for all the things that are unseen that you do in that capacity, thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.[01:07:30] Thanks again, everyone, for being here today. Um, I'm going to introduce the first of our second group of speakers today. Um, we're very, uh, honored to have Jane running here. Jane has been the National Coordinator for Positive Women, um, for 19 years. She has a Master's in Social Practice with her thesis being on stigma of women living with HIV. Jane was the Asia Pacific Delegate on the UNAIDS Coordinating Board. for three years, and [01:08:00] in 2017, um, was made Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit in the Queen's Birthday Honours for her work with women and HIV in Aotearoa. Um, Jane is going to speak now, and she will introduce two speakers from the, uh, Positive Speakers Bureau, uh, after her, and then we'll have one more. And we'll wrap up. Thank you. Applause I'm so glad we had that break because I'm still kind of settling from [01:08:30] some amazing speakers. So it just really takes you back. Um, as you've heard, I'm the National Coordinator for Positive Women. Um, The organization started in the late, um, eighties, early nineties, um, when women started to be diagnosed with HIV. One of our founding members, um, was a queer woman and, um, you know, uh, there are no diagnosis of [01:09:00] HIV transmission between women and women in New Zealand, so it's actually one of the sort of safest relationships one can have. However, there's other ways that people can get HIV and, um, our member got I contracted HIV through sharing, injecting drug equipment. She's no longer with us. Um, she passed away with AIDS, along with many of the other founding members. Um, but we still have a [01:09:30] few of those founding members with them, with us. And while I was not a founding member, um, I was diagnosed with, um, HIV in 1988. And, um, so I've been living with HIV for 35 years. And been very, very lucky to have made it through those years. My experience was a little bit different. I was living in Africa at the time. And it was very much a heterosexual plague there. [01:10:00] Um, and a lot of poverty and a lot of dying and a lot of deaths. So, while it was different, it was also similar. One of the things that, you know, the reasons why I'm still here anyway is because of the medications. And, um, in 96, uh, science came, broke through and we've got some amazing medications nowadays. And these [01:10:30] medications, what they do is they actually reduce the virus. So that it comes to what scientists call an undetectable viral load. So that it's sitting there almost dormant. And what that means is that it's not affecting the person's body. So the person's immune system is doing great and they can live well. Also what it does is stops transmission of HIV as well. So people with HIV now can have unprotected sex without a condom [01:11:00] and not pass that on. They can have children and not pass HIV on to their children. And this is a huge breakthrough. I think it's something that a lot of people don't understand. They know there's medications and that, you know, people are living, but they don't really understand the further implications of that. So science has really gone a long way. But the biggest barrier that we still have is stigma. And stigma, [01:11:30] even in this day, you know, considering it's been 40 years of HIV, it hasn't moved very much. And what is it? Stigma. What is it? It comes from fear, it comes from ignorance. But mostly it's usually people's moral judgments. And because HIV is sexually transmitted, it's so much easier to have moral judgments around that. Um, and so, it's very hard. What, what [01:12:00] happens then for when someone contracts HIV and is that all of that societal connotations, you know, you're bad, there's something wrong with you because you've got age, you must.. AIDS, you must be promiscuous, you're gay, you're a drug user, sex worker, all of these things. What happens then to the person living with HIV is that they take that on board. And I recall very strongly, um, when I was [01:12:30] diagnosed with AIDS, was in those days, I was always the only woman. Wherever I went, I moved back to England not long after I was diagnosed. And everywhere I went, I was the only woman. All the support networks were gay men, which were great because it had someone to talk to. But I kept thinking to myself, there must be something really bad about me because I'm the only woman with this. And, um, And I left my partner and came back to New Zealand in, [01:13:00] um, 94. And I came back because I thought I was going to die, because that's what I was told. And I had a ten year old son and I wanted to introduce him to my family. So that when I died, he'd have somewhere to, somewhere to be. Um, but I also made a conscious decision that I would not get into another relationship. Firstly because I was going to die. But then when I realized I wasn't going to die, I kept thinking. Who's gonna want this? You know, it's like, I'm dirty. Um, [01:13:30] I don't feel sexy. I didn't, I stopped dancing because I felt that dancing was being sexy and I didn't want to be sexy. So it tore away at my own self esteem. And I'm not unusual in this. This is quite common for all people living with HIV. And so, what we call that is an internalized stigma, so that the person, you live with it within yourself, and you actually, you, you believe all of the societal accusations, and you, you [01:14:00] become that as well, and you, you feel bad about yourself. And often, um, people living with HIV will go through depression. Um, it's very common, um, for people living with HIV to go through depression. So then we have, that's the internalized stigma that happens. So you've got the societal stigma and then you've got this internalized stigma that you're living with. But then if you add on to that, you're living with HIV and you're gay. [01:14:30] Gay has its own stigma in society. Living with HIV and I'm a drug user. Drug using also has stigma. I'm a sex worker. I'm a person who contracted it through just having sex. You're promiscuous. So, for someone who then, say, has HIV, is gay, has, is a sex worker, and uses drugs, we have these layers and layers and layers [01:15:00] of stigma that that person has to deal with. content with. Again, we get, the biggest reaction to that is usually, um, you know, people feel ostracized, they feel alone, they feel lonely, they keep, keep the secret to themselves. It becomes a secret. I myself kept HIV a secret except to my closest family for 17 years. Um, it's only when I started working for Positive Women that I actually came out, so to speak. It was the [01:15:30] biggest relief, actually. Holding those secrets is often what is the biggest burden to us. I think being out and being proud and living who we are has its advantages and it really does help with the mental health. So, just, um, I'm probably going to leave it with that because I just really wanted to highlight that, yes, okay, it's fine. You know, I've been living with HIV for 35 years, you know, [01:16:00] I've got a few side effects from the drugs, and I'm getting old and grey, which I hate, and wrinkled, but, um, besides that, there's still a whole lot of other stuff that sits with people. Getting an HIV diagnosis today, even though the person knows they're going to go on medication and they're not going to die, is still a traumatic experience for that person, and it needs care, and it needs counselling, and it needs.. And so I guess I just want to put out, I'm sure I'm speaking to the [01:16:30] converted here, but please just, you know, help with that stigma, the fight against stigma. And the best way to remove that is to talk about it, to talk about HIV, to educate people, so people are not ignorant. Thank you for that. Um, I'm gonna next, um, part of what Positive Women does is we actually train up people living with HIV to go out and speak to the community. And, um, [01:17:00] so, you know, we really believe in, um, nothing about us without us. And we believe that people living with HIV should be in the forefront of educating the community. And it's also empowering for people who live with HIV to actually be the people that can go out and speak. And so, um, the next two speakers that are coming up to speak are from the Positive Speakers Bureau. And so I'd just like to introduce Kel, who's about to come up. And Kel's gonna tell I'm not going to say much more because I think [01:17:30] Kel can introduce herself. But, big welcome for Kel. Thank you. Applause God, it is bright up here. I should have put suntan lotion on. Hi, my name is Kel. Uh, my pronouns are Um, and I've been living with HIV for 15 years. [01:18:00] Uh, I live in a country too, so I'm another country girl. Um, so I was pretty ignorant when I was diagnosed. I didn't know. Uh, much about it. I wasn't in the gay community, so there was no education in the hetero community except for the, the cruel jokes, like people say, you know, about gay people. So, [01:18:30] uh, when I contracted HIV, I did so, so my partner and I, my boyfriend and I could lose the condom. Um, uh, it was my first STI. Um, sexually transmitted disease, and yeah, it's the worst. Um, so, I spent a lot of, a lot of days in a drunken stupor, not really [01:19:00] feeling like it was my fault, but feeling like I was cursed. You know, there was, um, you know, all the, all the small minded.. Uh, feeling that comes with living in a place like Upper Hutt. Um, you know, the Akataro is in a rural place there, so not, not really in the city. And, uh, I, I didn't [01:19:30] do too well for, for quite a few years, um, with the drink and drugs. And, you know, put myself to sleep with a bottle. Should have just done that. It would be less, uh, damaging. Um, so, I, um. I got to a really, really low point. The doctors said, well, you'll make old bones. You know, the medication is, is great [01:20:00] nowadays, you know. But I felt like death. And I thought they were telling me, you know, like the placebo effect. Um, and I got sicker and sicker and.. Yeah, it was harder and harder to hide it. My, my, my dad had an accident and he had PTSD at that stage. And both of my brothers were going through nasty divorces. And [01:20:30] so I kept it secret. Uh, you know, my, my mum felt very betrayed seven years later when, when I did tell her. But, um. Yeah, it was a bad place to go, you know, like, I call it the sick sheep syndrome, where we know we're sick, so we hide away from society, and, uh, so it all came to a head, and, uh, [01:21:00] and one day I started pissing blood. You know, and being, being a trans woman by then, you know, I, I hoped it was my period, but, um, my kidneys had failed, and, uh, that was why I felt like I was gonna die, so, so I've come, I've come right from that, um, and I realized how ignorant I was once I did join, um, um, um, [01:21:30] You know, the positive bureaus and the, um, the AIDS Foundation for counselling. Um, yeah, and I started to come out of my chrysalis, so to speak. You know, I've been transgender for 20 years. Um, uh, And in that time, I was, um, you know, super introverted, I wouldn't look at anyone, and I'd wear a cap, [01:22:00] and wear black clothes, and yeah, yeah, I didn't have a friend in the world. Um, but, but through the help of the, what then, the AIDS Foundation, I, I, You know, became a colourful person. I feel like I might be a bit too colourful today. But, you know. Um, so through the counselling, I [01:22:30] began to get the feeling that I was quite fortunate. I didn't have to pay, you know, 200 an hour for a counsellor. You know, because I had HIV. I got, I got counselling. So it's a good thing. Uh, then another good thing. Was that I had peers finally, um, you know, and, and we had a little support group where, you know, we have learned to be honest about our own [01:23:00] stuff. It, it became a real asset to learn. Learn about myself to, to grow within myself, um, and so yeah, I had therapy friends. Uh, it wasn't until my, my, um, well, my, my counselor who became a good friend, Brenda Little, um, put me onto a support [01:23:30] system, um, being transgender. I didn't get, uh, the support that males or females got. Um, so, yeah, I got to the Positive Speakers Bureau and I met the esteemed Jane Bruning. She's a lovely, lovely lady. And, and a very brilliant man, Jonathan Smith. And, and I, you know, proceeded to learn how to [01:24:00] speak with 14 other people. And during, during that time, I, uh, I found out that I had peers, and I had people who thought like me, you know, I thought there must have been a country overseas where people were tall and blonde and effeminate, and I'd fit in there. Um, but yeah, it turned out I had a female brain, [01:24:30] and I, um, I found some really good lifelong friends. One sitting hunched up in the front, obviously feeling my emotion, Heather. Um, and when she was diagnosed, she had about, um, you know, like, I've got a CD4 count of 1, 300, and that's your fighter cells. She had a, she had a CD4 count of HIV.[01:25:00] AIDS is still out there, but in New Zealand now, there aren't people dying of AIDS, touch wood, and um, you know, so, to, to, um, to show that we are changing, then, I, I love that the, the Burnett Foundation changed to take AIDS out of their name. Because, you [01:25:30] know, that's, uh, that's what people have in their heads. That's what people think of when they hear AIDS, is sick people, and like you've seen before, before me, you know, it's a bit daunting to speak here with all these.. People, peers that I've known for the years that I've been in the industry and finally see them face to face. Very daunting, but I'm, I'm pleased to be here and I'm [01:26:00] pleased to be speaking, uh, for a pride event. So it has a double meaning for me, you know, that I'm now proud. to have HIV. I'm not that little, uh, skinhead from Abaha. I, you know, I've become, become a true person. Uh, it brought, uh, you know, even with someone [01:26:30] diagnosed when the drugs had improved, I, I still have a few. Uh, side effects and life changing side effects. Um, uh, so I started to feel awful again, um, over the last four, five years. And, um, yeah, I have heart troubles now, so I nearly died at the HIV retreat, which I'm very [01:27:00] fortunate to be able to go to in, in Auckland, where there's.. 40 odd women, uh, all giving each other support, and yeah, the steps there, um, we're, we're making my heart play out, um, uh, right heart dysplasia is what I've got, and, you know, I think I'll live a long time, but it [01:27:30] makes it more important to get my message out, you know. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only trans woman. In New Zealand who's out about their status. Um, so being out about your status is, is a good way to be alone for the rest of your life. So I haven't chosen to be alone, sorry. [01:28:00] Uh, but what makes it livable is, is having friends and, and learning, you know, to, to be more honest with myself and more honest with people I love And, hmm. Thank God, because I come from an English family, and in our family, you do not speak about feelings. You know, everything is about the birds and the bees and the light, [01:28:30] fluffy conversations. So, you know, even though I've told my parents, we haven't had any quarrel about it. I don't think they're that, you know, they have read books and things, but, yeah, it was up to me. And, uh, I think I'm doing pretty well. So, thank you all for hearing me speak. I've been dying to press these buttons, but I didn't, so. Cheers. And now,[01:29:00] now if I could, now if I could call up Jeremy Naylor, who is another of my good friends. Thanks. Kia ora tātou.[01:29:30] Jeremy. Hi everybody. I'm Jeremy, and I am a 40 year old, a 40 year old queer male living [01:30:00] in Wellington. Sorry, living with H I V in Wellington. Firstly, I would like to. I have passed away from HIV or AIDS related illnesses. I am grateful to both Michael Bancroft and Te Papa for keeping the AIDS court [01:30:30] safe for future generations. Kia ora. I would also like to acknowledge the support that I have received from the following organisations. Wellington Hospital, probably now known as Te Whātua Ora. Buddy Positive, New Zealand AIDS Foundation, now known as the Bennett Foundation, and the Positive Speakers Bureau.[01:31:00] All of the organisations I have just mentioned, whether they realise it or not, have given me the strength to be here today, so thank you to them. There is hope. In July 2008, a friend [01:31:30] suggested I get an HIV test, so I did. I was diagnosed as being H I I V positive. I took the news of my diagnosis pretty well. I wasn't stressed about it, which is probably because I'm a pretty happy person most of the time.[01:32:00] When I was first diagnosed, I felt shameful, stupid and angry. I was surprised because I didn't have any symptoms at the time, but, Those of us who are positive know that you can have HIV without having symptoms. Symptoms like COVID. You can have COVID but [01:32:30] also have COVID without knowing. That's why testing is absolutely essential. I knew a reasonable amount about HIV and I thought I'd never catch it. How wrong was I? I was infected by, uh, with HIV by a high profile [01:33:00] person. who was in the media at the time. Shortly after my diagnosis, I started taking medication. And as Kel, who spoke before me, rightly said, it is the medication that I've got to thank for me still being here on this earth today.[01:33:30] I take it every day. The first medication that I was on was horrible. It gave me two side effects. They were tiredness or fatigue. The tiredness was.. Easy to deal with. I took my meds just before I went to bed. Easy. The other [01:34:00] side effect that I have had, and still do have to this day, thankfully not as much as I've had it in the past. It's probably not that nice to talk about in public, so you probably don't want me to talk about it, so I won't. A certain word that starts with D.[01:34:30] I think I've said enough about that. I have experienced stigma because of my HIV status. A few years ago I was in Auckland for work. I found a guy online and we agreed to have some fun with each other at his place.[01:35:00] He was going to do a certain act on me. However, he insisted on me wearing a condom. Even though HIV transmission via Rf6 is low risk, actually best as, because I've got what's called a, in science, what science calls a, [01:35:30] an undetectable viral load, it's extremely low risk, I repeat, it is extremely low risk. By the way, the person that, the person who infected me with HIV committed suicide while he was in prison. Because I take my medication [01:36:00] every day. I can live a full, a fully normal and long life, as long as any other healthy person. HIV does not define me. It is a small part of me, of my life. There is hope, because he isn't here to haunt me anymore.[01:36:30] Also, two other reasons, because the medication is better than it used to be, and also because I'm part of a Peer support group. We meet once a month. They are a huge help to me. I repeat, there is hope.[01:37:00] Sorry, I'm going against protocol here, but I just wanted to acknowledge that this is the first time that Jeremy has ever spoken publicly. So, that was huge.[01:37:30] Before I introduce our last speaker for today, I just want to want to acknowledge all of you who have spoken today and shared your stories and um, Taking the time to be here and be so generous with us and the display is going to remain open till three o'clock And once again, I just want to point out the resources on the first side of the room amazing [01:38:00] publications and The positive speakers Bureau has some amazing resources on their website as well, which you can find linked over there, too and Chanel is going to be our last speaker for today, so I'll just introduce her and then Then we're finishing up So thanks again for coming along. Chanel Hathi is of Ngati Hine and Ngati Tuwharetoa descent. She has worked for NZPC, the New Zealand Sex Workers Collective, for many years. This organisation was founded in the late [01:38:30] 1980s and advocates for the rights, health, safety and well being for all sex workers since the era of AIDS and has continued to do so. NZPC works along organisations such as the Burnett Foundation. The DHDP needle exchange, sexual health, family planning, and many more. Um, Chanel is also part of the Te Whanau Whanau group that supports rambler groups in other special events such as Pride. And some of the Te Whanau Whanau group is here today too. So, [01:39:00] welcome Chanel.[01:39:30] [01:40:00] [01:40:30] [01:41:00] [01:41:30] You're right that. Rock, uh, first of all, uh,[01:42:00] so my first acknowledgement is to the Higher power ua, my acknowledgement to the Sacred House, my third acknowledgement. Kia koutou katoa, kua tā mana i tēnei wā, um, ki te tautoko te kaupapa tino whakahirahira. So to all of you who have gathered here today to support this very, very [01:42:30] important agenda. E mihi aroha hoki ki ngā.. Tini mate, kua wehi ki te pua, haere, haere, haere atira. To those who have passed on, into the night, farewell. And you will always be remembered. So, good afternoon everybody. Um, my name's Chanel and I, I'm one of the community liaisons for the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective. [01:43:00] And um, oh my gosh. I go back, I remember those times, you know, cause I go back, oh gosh, 80's, 70's, and I remember, I remember all those times, I remember, I remember the, the, um, I remember the stigma and I remember the discrimination against, um, um, um, [01:43:30] against, uh, people with, um, with, with AIDS. And actually, to tell you that, you know, when, um, a disaster comes, an unknown disaster, and it just sweeps along across the world, people will, um, lives will be taken. And lives will continue to be taken until something is found. You know, because in those days there were no [01:44:00] preventative medicines. Um.. Just hope, really. And I stand here today to, um, And actually, really, this is, meetings like this and are really healthy because they are for the young people who weren't there to understand this dark time in our history. And it wasn't the only one. There was [01:44:30] the Stonewall, but the difference between that one And this one is that, that one was about rights, this one was about life. And that's the big difference between, between the both of them. And it became, and people with um, um, HIV and AIDS became the new lepers. of the century. Stigmatized. Marginalized. And on top of that, they were already marginalized, you [01:45:00] know, and stigmatized, so it was like a double shot. The organization that I work for, we all started, we all grew up with the DHDP, with Bill Logan and, and then, and, and, and the Afena Center, which is what it was known as back then, which is the beginning of the AIDS Foundation. So out of the dust of that war, um, you know, it's a call to arms, you know, to, to, to create these organizations. And um, [01:45:30] the DHDP for those intervenors, the, the, the, the needle, um, people who use needles, our organization for sex workers, you know, and of course for our, our community. And it's really important, you know, these organizations come together because all these groups within these groups, all the people are marginalized people, you know, and they need that help. And this was the call to arms. And, and [01:46:00] when we started in the 1980s, the um, Prostitutes Collective, it was because Um, Catherine, Dame Catherine, um, the wonderful Dame Catherine, it was because, it was because HIV and AIDS had come to the attention of the world, sex workers needed to be informed about things like safe sex practices, and all those kind of things. And, um, when we started our office in Cuba Street, the DHDP, or [01:46:30] it was called WIDE then, Was across the road, and we actually shared, I think we shared the same office. And so, like, we were like teenagers and we all grew up together and we're still here. And for all those young people, you know, that, that, that weren't there, these were very, very, these were very, very, um, uh, trying times because, um, of the stigma. Like I said, the stigma, and, and all the groups that use these organisations, you know, and um, oh, [01:47:00] it was just um, it was just, just, just a difficult time, but um, we can, we can look back from them to today, and um, you know, um, people, sex workers, you know, sex workers, um, um, it's been decriminalised in New Zealand, so you can work freely. Cal was talking about exactly what I thought of when I heard, oh, The Foundation's got a new name, it's called the Purnett Centre. What I thought was exactly what you thought. [01:47:30] Get rid of that ugly word, because things are better. And um, and that, because with our organisation, we are not called the Prostitutes Collective. We keep the word prostitute in because of all that stigma. But we've got it in our initials, but we are now called the Aotearoa New Zealand. Sex Workers Collective because we believe that sex workers work. And, um, it's been decriminalized so people can work. And it's more free. The word sex worker is more free [01:48:00] than the word prostitute. So, I'm really glad that, um, um, the foundation got rid of the word. I mean, it's part of our history. And, um, people live longer. People live longer so there really is no need to keep that in because it was dehumanizing. And I remember one time.. This is what I heard, back in the day that the, um, that stigma had even reached cultural levels. And I heard about a tangi where they had said [01:48:30] that they were thinking, the people on the marae were thinking, we're going to bury that person outside the marae. You don't bury people. outside your marae and you know love is, love is strong and one of the youngest ones said over my dead body are you going to and it's only because they were sick and this is the ignorance of um, of uh, back in those days even, even to a cultural level and it was because of fear as well and that person said over my dead body are you going to [01:49:00] put my family, their whakapapa and their genealogy is sitting right in that graveyard and You are not burying that person outside. And they talked about it and came to the conclusion, Okay, well, you know, alright, alright. But, they shouldn't even have thought about that. Because that was absolutely terrible. And, um, you know, And I remember, And I remember, you know, um, Friends of mine who were trans girls, No one was [01:49:30] immune to this disease. Men, women, trans girls as well, everybody. Michael Jackson wrote a song called, if you've ever heard it, it's called Gone Too Soon. And it was written for a young boy, a 13 year old boy called Ryan, who was HIV positive because of a blood transfusion. And if you ever hear that song, and it's so pretty, and that's what he wrote that song for. So, you know, there was a big price to pay, but I just wanted, I just wanted to, to thank [01:50:00] people who, you know, we are the organisations, we are the organisation, but there are other clogs to that, to that wheel. And, and one of them is right down there, there's um, who keep, who keep these. These, these audio and these visuals, because these young people can hear it from us, but to see it on the screen and to hear it in colour and all its beauty, and there's nothing like it because you can put yourself there and, and, and think. Yeah, yeah, I can feel it. Yeah, and [01:50:30] we're just the storytellers. And I just want the young people to know that, um, you know, you've got it lucky today, but you do have, um, you do have, um, things that need to be fixed. Nothing is ever perfect. Um, and, um, you will find a way. You will find a way. Us who retain those stories, like Te Papa, Te Papa, you know, Te Papa needs to be, he needs such a big thank you because they are our [01:51:00] waka huia, and if any of you in here don't know what a waka huia is, it's a carved Maori treasure box like a, like a, with a lid on it, and that you put your taonga in it, that is a waka huia, but because our people use analogies like that for life, and you know, like the keepers of, of, of our things, this is how a This is how we speak in our language. So, waka, uh, so, uh, that's what a waka huia is. And te papa is, um, yeah, our waka huia. And, um, yeah, and, uh, I just want [01:51:30] to mihi to, um, to all our speakers. Speakers to you, Mr, Mr Logan. Um, where's that gentleman that spoke first? He was great. Yeah, and this lady here. Oh, you were, you were wonderful. I had a tear in my eye when I was listening to you. Yeah, to all our speakers, Cal, nice to see you girl. I always see Cal in places and, um, we pass by each other, but I always make sure that I say hello to her. And to you, you were wonderful. [01:52:00] You were wonderful. So, um, yeah, let's talk about the quilts. The quilts, what are they? They're where people put their love. You know, they were as a, as a, as a, as a memory to those who were somebody's brother. Somebody's father, someone's, someone's, someone's sister, you know, and that's what, that's what these courts are for, that, that there's somebody, it's a memorial and a tribute to, to somebody [01:52:30] who, um, who lost the battle before, you know, any help could come. But, um, we're here today to make sure that, um, these people here. Yeah, and I knew a few of them. One of my friends, um, she was a sister, a queen. If anybody don't know what a queen is, it's an old, it's an old trend, it's an old, um, terminology for trans [01:53:00] girl. And I think it sounds a little bit more dignified. Where are the queens? Oh, they're over there. Yeah. So, um, yeah, and Alexis, and she was wonderful. And, um, when she passed, um, we, uh, created, um, a fund, we called the Alexis Kennedy After Love Trust. And, uh, that was for, um, to help anybody who, uh, who had passed away from HIV that was having problems with their funerals. And, um, now it's called, [01:53:30] um, We now renamed, we renamed it after one of the trans girls who gave us a safe space, a coffee bar called the Evergreen, some of you might have heard of it, for 25 years, and she passed it, passed away, so we called it the Chrissy Wetoko Fund, so, so, so that's what, um, that's for, but you know, um, at the end of the day, within the community, the gay community, we have everything from the beginning to the end, so we have the organisations, the chums. And in between that, you know, the organizations that protect you, and in between that, you [01:54:00] have the married celibates that can marry you and give you a happy life. And then you have the people at the end that can be at your funeral at the end and, you know, from the rainbow. And so it's all, all in there. And I just want to, um, thank, um, um, yeah, yeah, the organizers, Bena, um, Bena, um, Reuben. I mean, I've, I've never met these people, but I was, when they emailed me, I was like, oh, should I do it? Because I'm not a very good speaker, but I'm like. [01:54:30] I'm like, oh stuff, I'm gonna do it. So, so here I am. So here I am, um, and very proud to be part of the Pride. And, you know, and there's just so many people, some I might have forgotten to acknowledge, you know, from the, from the top to the middle, to the bottom, and, and, and once again reiterate that the guy, um, what's his name, um, Peter Duncan, from, somebody put an email that he was coming, I don't know if he's here, but anyway, it's people like that, like I [01:55:00] said before, people like that, people like Gareth Watkins, they sit quietly at the back, and, and, and preserve these, um, these wonderful, these wonderful, sometimes sad, um, parts of our rainbow history, and then we have a big huge house like this one, that takes care of it. So, you know, so everything's all good. And if it's not all good, well, we will find a way as we do within our community and we'll, we'll, we, we would, we, we would [01:55:30] deal with that. And, um, Oh, there's one more thing I just want to say, I just want to acknowledge, um, um, Princess Diana. Cause I really admired her. But I admired her because, um, you know, and, and, it's just a shame that she, she went so, so, so quickly, but, but I just admired her passion and her drive and her love for people who had, um, HIV and AIDS. She, apart from, you know, she cast aside [01:56:00] all the trappings of royalty. But she never broke protocol, and she touched the hands of somebody who had AIDS, and the whole world went, Oh my god, did you see what she did? But she didn't care. She didn't care because she was the quintessential humanitarian. Beautiful, kind, a big heart, you know, up there in the sky, you know, but She could come down here and just be just like everybody else and um, I think that um, Angels [01:56:30] like her probably get taken to heaven because you know, you know, they probably too good for this world anyway And to me, that's what she was She was just just just that kind of person and it was so nice to have at a time of crisis that at that time That somebody so big and you know, so important would come down and say look it's okay, you know and today You know, better medicines, and I hope that, [01:57:00] um, whatever comes next that we will deal with it, um, we will deal with, in order to be another chapter within our, within our stories, like these ones, for you young people, because it'll be your turn, because we're not going to be here forever, but the archives, and the stories, and the recordings, like Gareth, and, and, and documentaries, they will be for the next generation, so all I have to say to conclude everybody is that, um, thinking about all these people [01:57:30] that have passed away, you know, we, we, we must all at the end of the day, remember that they are like stars and the sky and the stars that will never fade as long as we look up and remember. I would just like [01:58:00] to, um, acknowledge this because you, you probably already know about Georgina Bayer. Yeah, Georgina Bayer, and she, that um, you know, who, who, she was a very, very strong campaigner for, for, for AIDS, for AIDS total. She was, she was like, she was, in her real life, when you see her at the podium, like rarrr. That was her, that was that fire that, yeah, and she [01:58:30] meant, and she meant what she said. And, um, yeah, she was such a big supporter for, um, for, for, for, for AIDS and, um, and, and, and, and, and just, just, just, just, she fought for the underdog because she comes from an era, she's a little bit older than me, but we come from the same era where, um, where we know what it's like to be treated. unfairly and to be beaten and, um, and, and stigmatize and, and, and, and, and face discrimination. She knew that [01:59:00] because, um, because us queens, we know what that's like and, um, that fire that she had inside her when you saw that, that was real. And, um, if she had a passion for something, she would fight for it till the end. And, um, Yeah, they named a street after her in Carterton because she was the mayor of Carterton and this is this little, this little straight town of, of wonderful people and they love her and, and I think from what I heard [01:59:30] that they might even have a memorial for her because she went in there and she just And she just and those people in Cardigan just loved her and they didn't even want her to go. Unfortunately, Labor won that year and Helen Clark came in and kind of tempted her into Parliament. Well she broke another record. She became the first transgender MP in history. And she did a really, really good job. You should have seen when she came out for the Destiny Church. Man, she was on fire, she was, she was on fire with the Disney, she goes, it's disgusting and all this [02:00:00] kind of stuff, but I don't know if people know this, she had a fundraiser to, because she was invited to Oxford and London to, to speak. And the only people who have ever been invited to there to speak was David Longing, was our Prime Minister in the 80s, my boss Dame Catherine Healy, and her. And she had a fundraiser down at the Opera House. Guess who was there? Brian Tambachy and his wife. Yeah, we're there, but I didn't go. But, um, I gave my seat to someone else and they went, guess who was there? And I went, who?[02:00:30] I went. Oh, really? So, you know, that was, that was really nice. You know, have a heart come down, you are Maori, you know, come and support and, um, yeah, apparently he was there and I thought, well, that was great. And, um, You know, all I have to say is, um, you know, Georgina is te rangatira. You know, rest in peace. You know, it's um, it's people like Carmen, if you've ever heard of her. She ran for me in 1977, so she paved the way for people like [02:01:00] Georgina Bayer to enter political spaces. So it's the ones that come before that kind of make the pathway for the next generation, because they want it to be easy. So, um, yeah, rest in peace, my sister. You'll, you'll, you'll, you'll never, you'll always have a place in our hearts and in our community and in our country. So, um, thanks everyone. Ka[02:01:30] kite.[02:02:00] [02:02:30] [02:03:00] It [02:03:30] falls to me to have the great honor. I've just a few words, few words of thanks because Chanel, as I sat there, you thank just about everyone that was on the list. We've been honored, myself and the other senior people to speak. [02:04:00] We have been supported by the next generation and over coffee this morning, one of us. said it's thanks to the likes of Benna and Reuben. That means stand up.[02:04:30] And the team of Te Papa. Because we have been part of the early history moving into the present and it'll be you people who'll take things into the future. Keep telling the story. Some of us remembered the way things [02:05:00] began. When you spoke, God, the need to surround people. With support. Jeremy, hope, which is what we need. And during the course of this morning and afternoon, there have been many [02:05:30] references to the New Zealand AIDS Foundation, which we now know as the Burnett Foundation. And I think it's only appropriate to acknowledge that after a busy morning, the current executive director, c e O, whatever name he's given, Joe Rich, please stand so they know who you are is the c e O of the Benet [02:06:00] Foundation. And we thank you through all these years and those who proceeded you. And the support of all of us who live with and support and love those who are part of the journey once again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.[02:06:30] . IRN: 3602 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rally_for_feminism_and_trans_rights.html ATL REF: OHDL-004715 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093105 TITLE: Rally for feminism and trans rights USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Eliana Rubashkyn; Emma-Jean Kelly; Sandra Marekino; Terry Bellamak; Tiaki Sharp; Tristan-Cordelia; Will Hansen; Willow Heron INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 2020s; ALRANZ Abortion Rights Aotearoa; Action Zealandia; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Christopher Luxon; Eliana Rubashkyn; Emma-Jean Kelly; Fired Up Stilettos; General election; Heterosexuals Unafraid of Gays (HUG); Homosexual Law Reform; International Socialist Organisation Te Whanganui-a-Tara branch; Kyle Chapman; Marama Davidson; Member of Parliament; Neo-Nazism; Parliament grounds; Posie Parker; Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition; Queer Endurance/Defiance; Roger Swanson; Sandra Marekino; Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF); Sisters for Homophile Equality (SHE); Speak Up For Women NZ; Terry Bellamak; Tiaki Sharp; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; United Kingdom; United States of America; Wellington; amplified hatred; anti-abortion; bigotry; bodily autonomy; death threat; far-right politics; fascism; feminism; genocide; hate; hate group; hate speech; human rights; international influence; intersectionality; lesbian; love; mis-pronoun; patriarchal system; pronouns; rape; reproductive rights; sex work; sexual violence; slay; social media; social networking; teara. govt. nz; threats; tomato; trans; trans man; trans woman; transgender; transmisogyny; transphobia; transphobic violence; volunteer; whakawahine DATE: 3 May 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Parliament grounds, 1 Molesworth Street, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the rally held on Wednesday 3 May 2023 in Parliament grounds, Wellington. The rally was organised by the Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition to counter a rally being held at the same time by Speak Up For Women. Special thanks to the organiser and participants of the PAFC rally for allowing it to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: I'm an 18 year old trans feminine woman, um, I'm currently studying at Te Heranga Waka University of Wellington, um, and we are on the Parliament lawn. Um, where Parliament Security has put up, uh, some metal barriers and, um, there are some TERFs here already on the other side. I can see a few shirts saying adult human female, which is always lovely. Um, and we're just waiting on the rest of our group to arrive in, oh, [00:00:30] about half an hour. Um, And, it looks like we already outnumbered them, so that's good for safety, but it looks like Parliament and Security are expecting a bit of a confrontation, so hopefully everything goes well and peaceful and, um, no one gets hurt. This counter rally is, uh, titled, uh, Rally for Feminism and Trans Rights. Why was it important to bring those two things together? Um, well, as I'll say in my speech again later today, um, I think it's, it's.. Uh, very important that, [00:01:00] um, transfeminism and other, um, branches of feminism are kind of inextricably linked. They, um, complement each other really importantly, and I think it's a really good way to, um, achieve everyone's goals. Um, and also, uh, our fights are very, very similar. You know, the, the fight for, um, abortion rights, uh, is very closely linked to bodily autonomy and the right to transition to trans people. Um, and, and then, you know, all the way through, um, feminist history, there've been, uh, parallels, um, to.. Trans, um, pushes for trans rights [00:01:30] as well. So, um, I think it's really important and Um, it also shows the, uh, TERFs, that they don't speak for all women, you know. If, if it was just trans women getting up and speaking, then they could make the argument that we're kind of alone. But when we have cis feminists and other feminist groups, um, also standing up to oppose their, um, hatred, it, it makes it much easier for our arguments to be defensible to, sort of, the general public. Since the visit of Posey Park, uh, a couple of weeks ago, or maybe a month ago now, has there been an increase in, kind of, anti trans sentiment in New Zealand?[00:02:00] Definitely. Yeah, there has. Um, I, I think it's, it's, it's definitely come to the forefront, but it's important to acknowledge that it's, it's, it was, it was here already. Um, and there were definitely transphobic undercurrents. Um, it's just, uh, her visit imported some more. Um, extremist views and some more extremist hatred, um, onto our shores. And, um, we've now got an important fight to push those back down again and make sure that they don't gain prevalence in our country. Do you think her [00:02:30] visit kind of just gives license for people to express, uh, stronger, louder, angrier views? Absolutely. Yeah. Um, she, she acts as a rallying point around which, um, hateful people, uh, justify their views by saying, Well, look at this. You know, powerful, popular person who supports us. Um, and yeah, I, I mean, I was very disappointed when she was let into the country at all. Um, but um, yeah, hopefully, hopefully we can outnumber them today and get some more media attention and, [00:03:00] and just show that actually TERFs are not the, um, majority at all and that they share a very hateful, um, minority view. Speak Up for Women has been around for a number of years and they've campaigned against a number of.. different pieces of legislation. What do you think is like their endgame? Like, when, when do you think they will kind of stop, or will they just keep going? Um, well, the thing about, um, transphobia is that their argument is that we don't exist. And so that leaves us with [00:03:30] the ultimatum of, um, either we win or we stop existing. Um, and so I don't think they're going to stop fighting. Uh, ever. Because until there's no trans people left in the country and in the world, um, their, uh, mission of hate will never be complete. So, it's really important that we stamp them out at the early age before we start seeing things like, um, what's happening in the United States right now where, um, trans people are being, uh, quite a significant way through the different, the ten steps of genocide. And it's quite a scary situation over [00:04:00] there. And, and hopefully we can stamp it out in New Zealand before it gets to that stage. We are currently outside, uh, the steps of Parliament. Uh, Speak Out for Women has organised a, um, speech or event of some kind and we're here as a counter protest, um, for trans and queer rights. Why was it important for you to be here today? Uh, well, a lot of my friends are queer and a couple of them are trans, uh, specifically trans women, and they're really important to me and it's important that, um, I stick up for them, [00:04:30] and, yeah, my role as an ally is really to be there for them, and that's the best I can do. Do you think there's been an increase in anti trans sentiments since the visit of Posey Parker? Um, from what I've read, there has been, yes. Uh, there have been some, uh, Much more aggressive stances, uh, from what I read. Reports of more aggression towards trans people following the, um, following the initial instance of her visits and, uh, then [00:05:00] fleeing. But, uh, that's only from what I've read. It's hard to, it's hard for me to say that I've seen it in, with my own eyes, in society, but I've definitely read the accounts and I've heard from others who have, uh, experienced that. So, yes, part of that is I'm not personally a target. But, um, I do my best to keep an eye on it. You mentioned Speak Up for Women and the event today, and they've been around for a couple of years now, and they seem to be campaigning against a whole range of different [00:05:30] legislation going through Parliament. Do you have any sense of, like, what their kind of endgame is? Like, what, like, what do they, what do they want to achieve? It's hard to say. I would say from, um, from what I'm seeing. It's simply a standing against something we don't like as opposed to fighting for something or fighting for something else. I understand it can be, um, when, when many of my friends started coming out as trans and um, other gender identities, it was a little confusing to [00:06:00] understand, but I took the time to understand it and now I have a really good idea of the situation. What I don't think they're willing to do is that they don't seem willing to Think about or consider other perspectives. It's simply a I don't understand it. I don't like it. It's got to go mentality and that doesn't really bring It's not a progressive mindset and it doesn't get you anywhere in the long run or does is kind of filibuster for other movements This is happening in [00:06:30] New Zealand, but I'm also aware that it's happening internationally. Do you think this is? Is that part of an international thing that's happening at the moment, the kind of anti trans feeling? Um, I would definitely say so, however, um, many surveys have reported that these anti trans sentiments are not in fact popular. In fact, um, there was a report on Fox News, which I know is interesting to bring up here, but, uh, they said only 15% of American households, um, saw, Trans people is a problem [00:07:00] and others didn't either were fine with it completely or just had some minor things here and there, uh, but only 15% saw it as a problem. So it's these other views most definitely of a minority. They're a very vocal minority, but they're a minority nonetheless. I'm Nella. I use he him pronouns and today we're at Parliament counter protesting a, uh, tariff protest. Why was it important for you to be here today? Um, I [00:07:30] just think, like, if we let this kind of garbage go unchecked, then we're just as bad, you know? So, it's important for me to be able to be here and help people that are most vocal, uh, in our community. Yeah, and so you're volunteering today. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just here as a medic today. So just helping out good experience Hopefully we won't need medical attention. Yeah, that's the plan. That's the plan. I'm hoping to be as useless as possible [00:08:00] With Posey Parker's visit a couple of weeks ago Do you think the kind of anti trans sentiment has like increased in New Zealand since then? Oh, definitely. I think it's Uh, with like, as well with like all the UK and US kind of stuff going on, it's really been on a rise lately. Um, and I've definitely seen and heard more of it just like in my day to day life. Um, I think Posey definitely stirred up a lot of.. People that were normally more quiet in their transphobia to being more vocal about it, which is [00:08:30] a shame. Yeah, hopefully they learn to stay quiet. Do you think it's, um, I mean it seems to me when I'm looking online that it's, you know, there's a lot happening internationally as well. Do you think this is just another kind of arm of that kind of anti trans sentiment worldwide? Yeah, yeah, I think it's just like.. New Zealand sometimes takes a bit longer to catch up on these things, but it's just slowly kind of spreading its fingers in here and waking up the already, like, dormant y, if not rampant, [00:09:00] transphobia that we have. Um, I think, yeah, we are very internationally influenced, and it's starting to show, so yeah. But then it must be amazing to see, Hosie Parker here in Wellington, where there was like 4, 000 people. That was, honestly, it was brilliant, and the amount of people I saw there, like, I saw the people that work at my, uh, university, I saw people I haven't seen in years, I saw so many different groups of people come together to stand up against, [00:09:30] uh, transphobia, and it was, it was gorgeous, it made me feel very proud live here. So, um, this event is countering the one that Speak Up for Women, uh, are doing today here at Parliament. Um, Speak Up for Women have, um, lobbied against a number of different bits of legislation and so it's not one specific thing. And I'm wondering, like, do you have any thoughts about, like, what their end game is? Like, what do they want to achieve? That's a good question, because I don't even know if they know. Um, [00:10:00] I think, yeah, honestly, it, it feels like they all have.. different goals in certain areas and they've kind of just lumped together into one group. So I, I honestly have no idea what they've, what's going through their heads. Not much, really. Yeah. Today, uh, well, this year is the general election here in Aotearoa. Um, do you have any, uh, words that you would like to say to either politicians or prospective politicians? Um, I think just being.. [00:10:30] Vocal about your stance right now could be very important, um, because, you know, I find sometimes politicians can kind of just try not to get involved, and I think right now with how high the tensions are, it's important to say how you're, how you stand on these issues and what you're actually going to do for the community. Um, but yeah, that's all I really know. I've come here today and I'll be here with some other feminists of an [00:11:00] older generation. Um, we're here because we've been wringing our hands about the fact that some older women and older feminists have been very much presenting anti transgender points of view. And we don't understand why really, because a trans woman is a woman to us. And so, as feminists, we're trying to make a bit of a stand and say, hang on, we need to step back a bit, welcome [00:11:30] trans women into our, into our spaces, and, um, and just carry on. Looking at the issues that have always troubled us, like, um, violence against women, poverty, you know, all of those kinds of issues that feminists have been concerned about for a very long time. So where do you think that kind of, um, hatred comes from towards trans people? Like, why is it rearing its head now? [00:12:00] I've got no idea. It's a mystery to me. I think, um, maybe some older feminists have been troubled by some of the transgender people they've seen. Seen but not spoken to, perhaps. Um, it is a mystery to me, Gareth. I really just, I'm puzzled by it. Yeah, because if you've met some transgender women and had the talk with them, they're just people getting on with their lives. And, you know, [00:12:30] if you want to be a woman, you're a brave person, because being a woman hasn't always been all that easy in our society. So I respect their wish. If they want to be women, then, you know, good on them. They're brave people. When I look overseas, I'm seeing kind of similar things that are happening, say, in the US and the UK. Do you think this is just part of a larger, uh, a larger international kind of anti trans sentiment? It seems to be, and that's very concerning, and that's why we as [00:13:00] feminists are wanting to stand up and say, Hang on. Stop this. This is crap. And, um, those transgender women in particular are women, and they're welcome in my space. Well, I'm, I'm a cishet male. Okay, I live in a privileged society, I am privileged, but I see people, vulnerable minorities, who don't have that privilege. And persecuting trans people for all these weird transphobic transgressions that mostly have never, [00:13:30] ever happened. This reminds me of 1986, of the gay law reform. And I've heard it all before, it didn't wash with me then, and it's not washing with me now. So can you compare back what was happening in 86 to what is happening now? Is there a difference? How do you, how do you think? At the beginning, it's pretty much the same. The rhetoric is the same. You know, you can't have gay men teaching kids in safe places. They use your bull crap. But there is something different now, and I think it's all amplified by the internet. It's made [00:14:00] a lot worse with the internet. Um, and stuff that you could ignore back in 86. It's very hard to ignore it now, and it just seems to, um, I don't know, amplify the hatred. And is that what you were seeing, hatred? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, and even when women speak out for, on behalf of trans people, so this is, you know, women, cis women, you know, you still get people saying, you know, just drowning them out, saying, no, let women speak, let women speak. Well, they are [00:14:30] speaking and their message is quite clear. You know, we've got nothing to be afraid of. You've brought a sign today. Can you tell me what's on the sign? Sure. The sign says, love prevails always. Yeah, it's just my favourite saying. I mean, you can argue with that. You can argue with that. So, were you also protesting during 86, 87, or 85, 86? Yep, absolutely. Um, I wore my hug badge, um, to work. And I just about dared my boss to tell me to take it off, but he never did. He [00:15:00] was actually quite cool about it. And I wore my hug badge with pride. With absolute pride, you know, um, you know, gays, trans people, you know, they're my, my siblings. So, and I'm a New Zealander, and I'm quite proud of the fact that, you know, we lead the world, you know, with um, LGBTQI plus rights, you know, absolutely. But how does it make you feel when you think that, that, that was 40 years ago, 85, 86, with the homosexual law reform, and these same arguments are coming up now? [00:15:30] Look, it's just gobsmacking that all the same arguments have been, uh, brought back, dredged up again, and they're almost word for word. But you might as well just replace the word, uh, gay with trans, and it's almost exactly the same. You know, people and.. so called safe spaces, but I tell you what, you know, what women have to fear is not trans women, it's cis het males who do most of the violence, you know, Marama Davidson in the Greens, she was 100% spot on, yep. This year is an election year, uh, would [00:16:00] you have any, uh, messages for our politicians now or would be politicians? Yeah, stand up for what's right. You may, uh, you may lose a few votes, you know, from certain, um, transphobes and hatemongers. Just stand up for what's right. You know, in your heart, I say to the politicians, in your heart, you know what's the right thing to do because you never know, the next person affected could be someone in your family. So we're in Parliament Grounds, and I'm standing here in the wind with my mate, and we're holding a banner that says Feminists [00:16:30] for Trans Rights. I'm in my 40s, I'm a strong feminist, and I believe that trans and non binary people need to have exactly the same rights as everybody else. Why was it important for you to be here today? Ah, to support my whānau, to support rainbow communities. Yeah, and just make that point that.. Stand up for women, don't stand for me. Posie Parker didn't stand for me. I'm a cis woman and I'm proud, but I also love my trans and non binary whanau. Posie, well Posie wasn't here [00:17:00] in Wellington, she actually left New Zealand but there was a rally against Posie Parker a few weeks ago here in Wellington. Did you attend that? And if you did, what was the feeling like? I did attend it. It was such a joyful event. It was huge. And I know it's just Yesterday on Taro Encyclopedia of New Zealand, they just put up a beautiful photo of our attendance and we could see ourselves in the crowd. Um, it felt like an event where everybody knew that this was the point where we had to say, we don't want this kind of anti trans kōrero, we don't want it to enter [00:17:30] legislation, we don't want it to enter our workplaces. It was amazing. We also heard from trans people themselves, and that was so powerful for me, to hear about people's experience of every day walking down the street being yelled at and slapped and shouted at, and how hard that is, and then to have feminists They've challenged their right to be themselves, just seem to me so extraordinarily messed up. This rally today is a counter rally [00:18:00] to the Speak Up for Women rally. And, I mean, they've protested a number of bits of legislation. It's not just one issue they're going for. What do you think is their kind of end game? I try very hard to understand. I even looked up their website, which has all these generic photos of white people looking very fit. It's very strange. I don't know what their end point is, except I do know they feel genuinely threatened. But I can't get to the bottom of [00:18:30] why. I've asked people. There is no rational explanation for this response. We've just had the PA start up with music. Um, I might just end this very shortly, but if you could just describe what you can see around us. Oh, it looks amazing. We have purple haired people, purple glassed people. We have pink beanies. We have banners. We have, um, trans flags, trans t shirts, and all sorts of different kinds of humans here together to [00:19:00] celebrate in their beautiful shoes, in their beautiful wairua. I'm Sandra Marikino. What we're here today is to come and support my sisters, all my trans friends, and women's rights. And we're fighting for women's rights as we are speaking for today. Can you look around you and just describe what you can see? I see a lot of trans sisters and brothers all here today for [00:19:30] today's rally, and hopefully we'll get women's rights accepted today. Acceptance saves lives. Hate kills. And that's the big banner at the front of the rally, yeah? Yes. Yes. Um, hopefully it will be a good turnout today. Well, as we slowly see that people are showing up and we are supporting each other of all colours and rainbow. Why was it important for you to be here today? I'm here to [00:20:00] support my friends, who are also trans, sisters and brothers, and to fight for their rights. To be with them fighting for our women's rights. And make friends and meet people. I've seen you at a number of trans rallies over the years, and you're always quite vocal. I mean, it's really, it's fantastic. But what is the feeling you get, say like, I think I saw you at the um, the uh, Aunty Posy Parker rally. Um, the feeling I get [00:20:30] is good vibes that I'm actually in the crowd with them, and chanting with them, and meeting people and talking about what we really need. With the Hikoi March in March, not so long ago, It would turn out to be a very big crowd, and I started chanting for everyone, and everyone was following me. Hence why I was chanting, is to cheer the crowd up and let people know that we are here, loud and [00:21:00] proud. And we all care for each other, and we're all for one. We're not just individual people asking for something that we want. We're all as in one equal, asking for what we want. Our woman's rights. Give us what we need. This is us. Whether we are trans men, trans sister, we are still one people, one person. We're still under one colour, the rainbow flags. Do you think since Posie Parker's [00:21:30] visit to New Zealand that there's been an increase in kind of anti trans sentiment? Ehh, honestly I can't answer you that. Since she's been back home, we are so proud that she did not come to Wellington. Very proud that we did not come to Wellington. Uh, I feel sorry for her. She should realize her family comes first. She's, she's a mother, a wife, a sister and auntie. Her family comes first. Her life is more [00:22:00] important than protesting against trans people. We are all as one. She, we fought for what we are doing. And we are still fighting for our, for our women's rights. So I'm glad she did not come to Wellington. And I'm sure the whole of Wellington is proud of what we did that day and why she did not come down here. This year is the general election here in New Zealand. Is there anything that you would want to say to politicians or would be politicians? [00:22:30] Please come out and support us and be with us. We are here for our rights, for our rights, women's rights. Please give us what we need, especially to our trans sisters and brothers. They really need us as much as we all need us. So please be with us and support us. Kia Whanganui a Tara. Tēnā koutou e ngā irawhiti. Tēnā [00:23:00] koutou e ngā homi. Anui te mihi kia koutou. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Uh, we are gathered here today, uh, organized by Poneke Anti Fascist Coalition, standing up against anti trans rally that's about to get underway shortly over the other side of Parliament. And we are here to say that trans rights are women's rights, that women's rights are [00:23:30] trans rights, and that the trans community and feminism are together. Just want to give a shout out to Maniapoto, who are here today gifting a tree to the Crown. Um, after having settled their treaty settlement. Uh, that's dope. Welcome. So, my name's Tristan Cordelia. I'm going to be [00:24:00] emceeing. Um, I'll run through a safety briefing. Then I will hand over to Tiaki to do a karakia. Then I'll hand over to our four speakers. Um, Sarah, who's going to speak on trans rights and feminism. A couple of representatives from the Fired Up Stilettos who are going to speak about the intersection between, um, SWERFs and TERFs and stand against both. Um, Terry from Abortion Law Reform to speak about this movement. Um, and then Alice to speak about some of the more hidden aspects of [00:24:30] transphobia, uh, and transmisogyny. And then we will wrap up with some noise and hopefully a good time and a minimum of confrontation. So, we're here today for a peaceful protest. Um, we have marshals to keep us safe. Um, our head marshal is Felha. Uh, we stand for collective well being, including a need for the protection and support of the trans members of our community, and for the rights of all those marginalized to be [00:25:00] included and to be safe in society. We stand against the anti trans rhetoric, disinformation, and conspiracy theories against the far right's politics of violence, hatred, fear of trans people. In the future, it may be necessary to confront the threats they pose more directly. Today is not that day. Today we are gathered, gathering peacefully to demonstrate and resist. This is not about passive resistance, it is, but it is about non violent resistance. We are actively non violently resisting those who hate us.[00:25:30] Which means we don't lie down and let them do what they want to us, but we do de escalate any hint of violence that is to come. Specifically, we are resisting the extremely harmful views spouted by a very small number of their leaders and by agitators within their ranks. With that in mind, we urge you to adhere to our kaupapa by doing the following things. Attack the anti trans ideology. Don't attack the individual protesters who have been misled and lied [00:26:00] to by charlatans. Be part of the community. Look out for one another. When you need to go and find a public loo, go and come back with buddies. When it's time to leave, leave with buddies. Keep everyone safe. Include everyone. Talk to one another. Have fun! This is.. Rrrrrrrrrrrr! Meow! This is also a celebration of the diversity of our community. Meow! Have fun with that community. Look after the Svenua. [00:26:30] Find a public glue. Don't litter. We are on Taranaki whanau land, and we are here to respect that land. Marshals are in orange vests. Follow their leadership. Their goal, our goal, on this occasion is to de escalate potentially dangerous situations and ensure we successfully counter protest the TERFs without any of our community coming to harm. First Aid and Welfare team are in green. Shoulder tap them to help with injuries, mental and medical health and wellbeing advice.[00:27:00] If you can't find one, ask one of the Marshals to find one for you. Our med team are not a substitute for an ambulance in a critical situation, but they can help. We are not setting out to be arrested, but in the event that you are, we have spoken with a lawyer who is willing to be involved. You can ask a marshal for their number and write it on your arm in case you need it. Watch out for far right media trying to create incriminating footage, disrupt their footage or move away as you feel fits the circumstances. The reporters we've spoken to so far and that we have seen [00:27:30] around us are not from the far right. Um. Thank you. They'll generally be a bit more shifty than the people we currently have. Cool. So let's have an overview of how the day is likely to go. First of all, you are all inevitably going to be your wonderful selves, and you're going to talk with and look out for one another. The turfs will be gathering and protesting starting at 12. 30 and ending at 1. 30 over that side of the barrier. There will likely be other right wing [00:28:00] groups also heading to parliament, possibly coming from other directions. There will likely be right wing social media agitators and wannabes hanging around too. Don't give them your time unless it's to disrupt their footage. We're protesting all of these groups, we're letting it be known that they do not speak for and decide what's best for trans people, for women, for queer people, and all those in our community. But, we're not stopping them going up into parliament grounds. We will be staying here till 1. 30, making noise to disrupt them, and then having fun. The Marshall team will communicate a plan beyond that as the day [00:28:30] progresses. It's likely our numbers will swell around lunchtime when those who are unable to work to avoid work commitments join us. On the other hand, it's possible we'll close things down early or relocate depending on how the situation develops. Look to the Marshall team for directions and listen for announcements. We'll have a mix throughout, speeches, music, and chants. Um, we're really just going with simplicity today, so if we need to chant, we will chant. Trans rights are human rights. Or just trans rights.[00:29:00] Thank you for your time and attention and the love you've brought here to share today. I'm going to hand over to Tiaki now to open with the karakia. Tēnā tātou katoa. Whakataka te hau ki te uru, whakataka te hau ki te tonga. Kia mā kinakina ki uta, kia mā taratara kei tai. E hii ake ana te atākira. He tio, he uka, he auu, ti he wā mauri ora. Tēnā koutou [00:29:30] katoa. Kia ora. I'm now going to introduce our first speaker, Sarah. UA Coursera [00:30:00] ua. My pronouns are she her. I'm a proud member of the International Socialist Organization, of Paunake Anti Fascist Coalition, and of Queer Endurance Defiance. Groups with significantly overlapping mahi, and full of amazing people. We stand up against fascists and far right forces. We build community, and we ensure collective well being. Today, just behind me, in front of you all, a group called Speak Up for Women is holding a [00:30:30] rally. Now, genuinely, speaking up for well, the well being of women is an excellent idea. And I'm sure all of us gathered here today agree, women in Aotearoa face many injustices. Sadly, the group gathered over there exists solely and expressly for the purpose of demanding the removal of rights from transgender people. Kia ora,[00:31:00] and again! The work of transphobes serves to shift social attitudes rightward towards a world of individualism and hierarchy. That rightward shift must be fought. We don't need to look far to see a far right and fascist presence in the anti trans movement. Only as far as Nam Melbourne, where Neo-Nazis rallied with anti-trans trans icon Posey Parker, or just with an RO itself, where Neo-Nazi Kyle [00:31:30] Chapman, former leader of the National Front, recently organized anti-trans stand by your women rallies. So we all stand together against those who spew hate, seek harm, and sow division. Transphobes argue that transgender people somehow threaten cisgender women's rights. But rights are won for communities through collective struggles. And winning rights for [00:32:00] one group doesn't mean losing rights for another. We can ensure everyone in this society gets what they need to survive and thrive. There is enough resource to go around. Let me hear that more! There is enough resource to go around! Kia ora. We must build towards a society truly embodying the motto from each according to their ability [00:32:30] to each according to their need. That's an achievable goal if we are all united. Transphobia is just one of the many tools used to divide the working class. So we'll continue to rally mass resistance against hate. We'll resist the bigotry of all kinds. Who will work together towards common goals of social, physical, mental well being for all. And we will show, through a unity, a glimpse of an achievable future based on love [00:33:00] and community. We are already doing that. ALL of those things, right here, and right now. Kia ora! Kia ora Sarah. We next have two representatives from the Fired Up Stilettos who ora. Kia ora.[00:33:30] I am one of the organizers of the Fired Up Stilettos, and I'm here today to speak about the connection between trans exclusionary radical feminism and sex work exclusionary radical feminism, and how the two are inherently connected. Swerves.. They really are. I'm about to tell you. Swerves and TERFs really do go hand in hand. Just as trans people have always been [00:34:00] here.. Sex work is often considered the oldest profession in the world. From the 1970s, it is well documented that anti sex work feminists, anti trans feminists, religious conservatives, and the moral right have aligned themselves politically in a war against our communities. Swerves and TERFs both hold essentialist understandings of man and woman, and promote a patriarchal desire to control our bodies, our sexualities, our identities, and our labor. [00:34:30] Swerves will tell you that our industry must be abolished to protect children, to stop human trafficking, to stop child trafficking. to stop men from committing violence and sexual violence against women. They label sex workers as bad women, whose existence harms real women. They push these labels onto sex workers, ignoring the diverse experiences and identities in our industry, to advocate for laws that compromise our safety [00:35:00] with absolutely no legitimate evidence to back up their claims. While these examples are a pervasive injustice, these arguments are a distraction from the true causes and perpetrators of these crimes. It is a way of locating a familiar scapegoat, relieving men of accountability, and of blaming sex workers for male violence. TERF arguments use the same discourse, that a trans person is threatening to children, that a trans person's control over their bodily autonomy is threatening. That a [00:35:30] trans woman is not a real woman. That a trans person's existence harms real women. They use these arguments to advocate for laws that make trans lives precarious, susceptible to violence, and deny access to healthcare. Again, if you think there is valuable statistical evidence to back up these claims, you would be wrong. What is important to remember is that arguably the most vulnerable members of our sex work community are trans, street based sex workers. And some of the most [00:36:00] vulnerable members of the trans community are trans, street based sex workers. Now there is nothing inherently vulnerable about a sex worker or a trans person. We are made vulnerable by societal prejudice and by policy that discriminates against us.[00:36:30] This is why we cannot forget each other when we stand up for our rights, because our rights, like the hate perpetrated against us, was born from the same hands. It is also important to remember that there is privilege even within our own oppressed communities, but that privilege does not belong to trans sex workers. I have worked with few trans dancers in strip clubs across Aotearoa [00:37:00] because they don't often even have the privilege of working in the same shitty, exploitative venues that the fired up stilettos are advocating to improve right now. That is why it is important for the entire rainbow community to show up for all sex works rights movements, especially full service workers. With the very real [00:37:30] need for identity protection, we rely on the support of our allies. It is equally important for all sex workers to show up for trans rights activism Trans rights! trans [00:38:00] rights! Trans rights! Our biggest oppositions may not have a stronghold in Aotearoa like they do in places like the UK, but they do have a lot of money, a lot of power, and a lot of time on their hands to make all of our lives unsafe. Liberation for sex workers is inherently connected to liberation for the trans community. Thank[00:38:30] you. Tena koutou katoa. My name is Molly, or Mago and Vago, and I am a member of the Fired Up Solidos as well. Oh, thank you. This is the second time I've spoken on behalf of Fired Up Solidos at a trans rights protest, and I see that as a huge achievement for our communities, because Fired Up Solidos was only formed two months ago. The volume of anti fascist action taking place in our city [00:39:00] by our people is something that we should be very proud of. To wake up every day and see the brutal impacts of a self sustaining patriarchal society is not easy. But here we all are, standing together, being honest about who we are and what we want. It is our refusal to conform with the status quo that brings us all together. The refusal to accept that we should be treated as other or as less than. Queerness opens the door for us all to question the aspects of society we live in, decide what is [00:39:30] right for us, and live that way. Like all marginalized groups, we are not homogenous. But to truly live authentically, we must recognize and accept that we are different, and in turn respect the differences of others. We must keep in mind that division among our community is not born from feminist ideology. It is a strategy used by our oppressors to discourage our unity and make us weaker, because together we are a threat to the system.[00:40:00] We cannot achieve intersectional feminist liberation without sex workers and trans people. We cannot work towards justice using the strategies of our oppressors. And it is work to live your life honestly and intentionally in a world that relies on control and exploitation. It is work to sacrifice the comfort we all deserve in order to secure that comfort for everyone. And I am proud of you for doing that work. I am so grateful to you for doing that work. Because none of us can do this alone. [00:40:30] We are all rebelling against the same system, and if any of us manage to find justice for ourselves at the expense of others, we have failed. Every day that we choose to live authentically is a step towards liberation for ourselves. And every day that we decide to show up for each other is a step towards liberation for everyone. The effects of our oppression are diverse, but the solution for all of us is the same. Burn the fucking patriarchy. And, uh, sign our petition. Thank you.[00:41:00] Thank you. This is just currently speaking with the media, so I'm going to introduce our next speaker, Terri Bellamack from Abortion Law Reform New Zealand. Tēnā koutou. Kia ora koutou. Ahi ahi marie. My name is Terri, and I'm a life member and a former president of ALRAN's [00:41:30] Abortion Rights Aotearoa. And I'm here to tell you that Al Rans supports trans rights. LGBT folks were there for us during abortion law reform, and now we are here for them. During the fight for law reform, especially at the end when we were organizing [00:42:00] rallies and petitions and marches, the LGBT community was front and center. They were all in. We appreciate that. And we have not forgotten. It's important that everybody who supports the bodily autonomy of pregnant people and of everybody come together. Trans[00:42:30] rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights! Trans rights are human rights![00:43:00] Damn right. So now it's trans rights that are under attack. From the same people who were opposing reproductive rights. What a coincidence. And now, so these same right wing extremists and their fellow travelers are out there. Yelling about, who knows what they're yelling about. And here we are. And here is [00:43:30] Al Rantz. We are in it for the long haul. We're not going anywhere. Now the fight for reproductive rights is not over. We see it all over the world. Reproductive rights and trans rights are getting hammered. Especially in places like the U. S. Where right wing coalitions of people like, you know, TERFs [00:44:00] Fundamentalists, Christian Dominionists, white supremacists, and other racists in cells. And other anti feminists, and of course, you're straight up Nazis, are coming together to try and remove, fuck off, to try and come together and strip the human rights from people they do not consider to be human. Fuck that.[00:44:30] And make no mistake, right wing extremists right here in Aotearoa, including TERFs. They're trying to drag us all back to the world of the 1950s back when cis white men and their authority were not questioned. Abortion rights matter for everybody. Human rights matter for [00:45:00] everybody. Absolutely everybody, even if it's not your rights that are being challenged today. So, we have an election coming up. And National's leader, Christopher Luxon, evangelist. Yeah. Dude, who says he believes that abortion is tantamount to murder.[00:45:30] Has promised that he would not repeal the Abortion Legislation Act. Well, there's a problem with that. Because there's an awful lot of damage that an anti abortion administration can do to abortion rights and abortion access without even repealing. Like, for instance, they could change the Care of Children Act so that teens who want to get abortion care have to get their parents permission. This is something that [00:46:00] Posey Parker supports. As if we needed another reason to dislike that idea. Or safe areas. An anti abortion government could just not approve any, and thus harassing people outside abortion clinics. Would continue to not be illegal as it is, as it is not illegal right now, because unfortunately the present government has also not approved any safe areas after a year.[00:46:30] So to preserve our rights, we need to vote like our fundamental human rights are at stake because they are. Yeah. So today we are here and we stand together. And we will win. Our opponents would like nothing better than to divide us. Fuck that.[00:47:00] Especially Terps. Trying to paint themselves as feminists. No. That's bullshit. The feminist movement is intersectional. If feminism does not include LGBT people, well, that's not feminism. Because we are all here for the same purpose. To fight [00:47:30] the patriarchy. And the sensible people of Aotearoa support us. 74% of New Zealanders support reproductive rights. And 80% of New Zealanders support trans rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. [00:48:00] Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights, transparency, human right. So that's why we're out here. Al Rantz is here to support our trans siblings. We're here today. We'll be here next time and the time after that until [00:48:30] everyone, everyone is safe from violence and their, their human rights are recognized and respected. So, thanks for listening. Thanks for coming out. Ka kite ano.[00:49:00] Trans rights are human rights, and trans rights are also women's rights, just as women's rights are trans rights. I'm now going to introduce our final speaker, Alice, after which we will hear a brass band playing in our support, and then we're Welcome, Alice. Kia ora, everyone. My name is Alice. I use she, her pronouns. Thank you. [00:49:30] Transmisogyny is a unique evil. While it's common for less powerful groups to be scapegoated for all things that are wrong in the world, it's rare that members of those groups are simultaneously deemed not to exist. Our existence is caricaturized and mocked. Our resistance to these false characterizations is turned around and used against us. The trans debate is a broad and terrifyingly common specter that has been imported to Aotearoa and used to bolster the small sex of transphobia in our country. Many cis [00:50:00] commentators and bystanders miss. That transphobia has existed and been pervasive here, long before this international bigotry became the norm. Western right wing extremism has arrived through our media, and British transphobia has landed on our shores. And they both join a long running and scarily ignored underworld of hate. Ooh, I've got a halo. I moved to Pōneke for university from a small city with even smaller views. I was disappointed to [00:50:30] find that the same fight we started at home is still being fought here. I'm only 18, I've been out as trans for only 3 years, and already I'm tired. We are tired. Why is it that people are still unsure as to whether we even exist? Haven't we been here long enough? Haven't there been enough papers published and enough articles written? Being a trans person requires a constant expenditure of emotional energy devoted to justifying our existence. We are made to be experts in biology and sociology. Surgery and [00:51:00] endocrinology, philosophy and psychology, and uncountable other fields, and it still ends up being ignored. Social rights movements are always met with resistance, and often deadly resistance. But ours is unique because in addition to our rights being opposed, our very existence is doubted too. We are dehumanized and ignored. We are told that who we are is false. Every piece of evidence we provide is dismissed with, well, how do you know? And we're given the impossible task of proving reality to someone who will never believe us. [00:51:30] When we express our discontent with the oppression we experience in contemporary society, we invariably receive the same overused response from cis people. Why don't you just ignore them? If you don't give them your attention, they'll go away on their own. Aside from being obviously reductive, this ignores the reality of transphobia, and shifts the blame onto the trans community. By failing to challenge their hate, their door towards overt violence is left open. What these cis people miss, then, is the web of far right extremism, [00:52:00] and the calls for violence that exist just below the surface of the acceptable society in which they live comfortably. We do not have that luxury of comfort and complacency. The rise in anti trans hate is glaringly bright in the eyes of every trans person today, and the threat to our existence is omnipresent in everything we do. It is essential that cis allies of trans people make their own conceited, uh, concerted efforts to combat, sorry, I made a typo when I was writing this out and printed it out, and printing is expensive, so [00:52:30] I, um, yeah, um, concerted efforts to combat these transphobic undercurrents and oppose all those who spread them. This is a fight that trans people cannot win alone. Anti trans rhetoric at its roots calls for the non existence of trans people, and thus we are constantly forced into arguments with a deadly ultimatum. We cannot and will not compromise with those who call for our eradication. There is no platitude they can offer,[00:53:00] there is no platitude they can offer that does not jeopardize our rights and safety. A core issue arises in the powerful use of stereotype by the opposition. By characterizing trans women as violent, angry men in dresses, any pushback or realistic emotional reaction to their genocidal ideals is captured and thrown back at us as justification for their views. It is because of this that cisgender allies are so important in this fight. And why intersecting transfeminism with [00:53:30] other feminist movements is so important. The push for abortion rights carries vital and relevant themes of bodily autonomy and the right to self actualization. And feminist healthcare campaigns are intrinsically linked to our fight. Trans rights are inextricably intersectional. We must work together and present a unified front of unwavering support and resistance if we are to defend the right to our future. Thank you very much. Trans rights are [00:54:00] women's rights. Women's rights are trans rights. We are here together. All for one. And one for all. Kia kaha Poneke. Trans rights are human rights.[00:54:30] Trans rights are human rights! We are one! We are loved! We are one! We are loved! Trans rights! Human rights! Trans rights! Trans rights! Human rights! Human rights! We are loved! We are loved! We are one! We are one! Trans rights [00:55:00] are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Woooooo! I am Emiliana Ravashkin. I was born in Colombia, uh, to a Ukrainian.. Jewish refugee, which is my mom, and I grew up in a very dangerous country where being intersex and trans is very, very, very difficult. I came as a refugee in 2014. I was in a [00:55:30] refugee camp in China for several months as a result of discrimination caused by my gender identity and expression and my variations of sex characteristics. I came to this country in 2014 and this country has been amazing. This country has given me all the peace, harmony, love that I never imagined was possible. And I love this country. I love Kiwis. I love, I love this land. And I feel so fucking safe. I feel so safe here that I, whenever I feel that my existence [00:56:00] is going to be challenging in any way or where somebody is actually actively advocating for. against my existence, my rights. I just, you know, I just don't find another way. Other than smashing them and splashing them. And I guess this brings us to the Posey Parker event that happened in Auckland. Can you describe what the feeling was like at that event? That day, I felt how much love there is for trans people in this country. I [00:56:30] just couldn't believe it. Uh, I would, I don't want to talk about the situation itself because that's something that we have to talk on 4th of July when we go to court, but the energy, the, how, how alive I felt that day and how all the community was so strongly together with the trans funnel. It was so many. Amazing, like an energy I've never seen in my life. It was one of the most beautiful days of my life. It's one of the [00:57:00] days that I will never forget. Because that day, trans rights were human rights. And the entire country said no to transphobia, no to fascism. It was so clear. It was crystal clear. And I just love that she left the country that very same day at night. Because she said, I can't. stand. I can't handle these people because she wants fascism to take to be in this country and I don't know, I will say always not a fascism. [00:57:30] We won't talk about what's currently before the courts at the moment, but after, after that event happened, how has it been like for you in terms of getting hate mail or people getting any kind of feedback? I've been getting multiples, I would say dozens of dead threats. Um, it is a reality. I am in Kiwi farms. Kiwi farms is one of the worst stalking places in the world. Uh, it's a, it's a place where they stalk and harass. [00:58:00] Trans people or everyone that the far right deems reasonable, reasonable to be harassed. So I've been harassed. I've been followed. I've been doxxed. I've been, I've experienced harassment in many places where I go including here in Wellington and people just feel like they can just do whatever they, whatever and, and I've been, there's been attempts of my life as well. I cannot go into detail on to these three instances where I've, I've Nelly Fira will die.[00:58:30] Because that's something that we will let the police to deal with. But they've been very serious and police are taking care of those situations. Um, but I mean, I'm not surprised when the big enemy that we're fighting is actually new Nazis. Like action slanda and these type of people are, they are the ones that are inciting violence against me. So I'm not surprised, uh, to, to, to experience what I'm experiencing because that's the language they use. They don't know, they don't speak [00:59:00] any other language. They just speak violence. How does all of that make you feel? I, I'm not afraid of dying because I've been, I experienced so many difficult things in my life that I honestly, I don't feel afraid of dying. I actually, I only feel happy about being alive because I am very happy. I'm the happiest person because I am so happy that this country has given me the opportunity to just be authentically hundred [00:59:30] percent who I am and I have fallen in love with myself. I love everything about me and I love myself so much that I'm not afraid even of dying. The life expectancy of trans people in my country is 35 years old. I am 35 years old right now. I made it! I am an octogenarian in my country already, so every single year, every year that I have more in my life is just bonus for me and I'm just gonna keep living, slaying, living my truth, being happy, genuine, authentic, and [01:00:00] fighting for and with my community. You must also head. a huge amount of support. Can you tell me a wee bit about the support you've had? Yes, look at this. Look at, look at people dancing and my community, not just in Oteroa, in Australia, in all over the world. Tomatoes are a symbol of trans liberation. Tomato juice is just like, such a like, stupid thing to be like, such a powerful tool to To fight fascism, it's such a pacific way of fighting such a big demon, such [01:00:30] a scary enemy and I'm very happy that we crystallize our, this symbol in such a beautiful way. Yeah, slay. Trans rights! Trans rights! Trans rights! [01:01:00] Trans rights are human rights! We support trans wrongs. Trans rights are human rights. I've got a bigger megaphone Tartle,[01:01:30] tartle [01:02:00] wedge. Tartle, tartle wedge.[01:02:30] There is now quite big crowds on both sides, um, they're trying to give a speech through a steady little megaphone, um, and they're trying to block me from seeing them, which is dumb because I can see between them. Um, we've got a much bigger crowd with a much bigger speaker and much louder chants, and they're kind of just spouting their same old asinine bullshit, um, I'm just taking the piss out of them. It's quite fun actually. Um, yeah, you know, they love to try and instigate violence against [01:03:00] us, so if any of them come across and say anything to me, then it kind of proves them wrong. Are you able to, uh, read some of the signs? Yeah, so there's one big one held up high that says turf premises are flawed, um, a big banner at the front says acceptance saves lives and hate kills, um, and then feminists for trans rights and liberation for all. Um, there's one up there that says this fruit kills fascists with a bunch of, um, tomatoes, which is of course, iconic. Um.. Yeah, [01:03:30] lots of signs, lots of love on our side. Lots of hate on theirs. We're not going anywhere, we're here! We're not going anywhere, we're here! We're queer! We're not going anywhere! We're here. We're queer! We're not going anywhere! We're here. We're queer! We're not going [01:04:00] anywhere! Go home trans folks, go home! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human[01:04:30] rights! Trans rights are human rights! Woo! Yeah, uh, we're here today to counter protest Speak Up for Women on May 3rd, 2023. Can you describe the scene? Um, it's kind of a party over here. Lots of chanting. Um, [01:05:00] the people over there are trying to block us out. But it's not really happening because we're pretty loud. Can you describe the kind of numbers and the signs as well? Um, yeah, we've got over.. I think we have bigger numbers than they do, but um, They have a few, they have a few signs. They've got one big white, white and green sign with um, with the Venus symbols on it. Sex can't be changed, protect gender and [01:05:30] non conformity in our youths. Don't trans the gay away. Another sign is real LGB allies won't tell lies. Your body is your authentic you. Which is like, Well, we know our bodies are our authentic selves. That's why we change them to, to, to like really greater, like reflect it. It's getting quite noisy here. Can you describe the, some of the chants and some of the feelings that you're feeling? Yeah, [01:06:00] um, there was trans rights or human rights, uh, puberty blockers save lives. Uh, we're here, we're queer, we're not going anywhere. Um, I really like that one. Uh, personally I was trying to chant, um, trans rights are women's rights as well, because, because it is. Like, um, trans people have historically worked hard with feminist movements for, for bodily autonomy of everyone. [01:06:30] We shall overcome! We shall! We shall overcome! We shall overcome! We shall overcome! We shall[01:07:00] And we will overcome. We are the future. And you are the past. I'm going to speak to the other side now. We don't hate you as much as you hate us. We are predominantly young. And we do not want to go into the future with hate in our hearts, [01:07:30] the way that you are walking towards your graves with hatred in your hearts. It is not too late to change your minds. I guarantee you, you have loved ones who are trans, and instead of making their lives harder, you could be supporting them. We are over here living our lives, being ourselves. I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feelin I do [01:08:00] my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feelin Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Te Faka Pono, Me Te Rangi Te[01:08:30] aroha. One more time. Te whakahono. Me te rangi marie. Ta tau, ta tau e. We stand together in solidarity. Trans rights are women's rights. Women's rights are trans rights.[01:09:00] You will find us in the front row. Of the women's rights movement standing up for our cis sisters and our trans sisters. We are together. You would divide us, but we will not be divided. Trans rights are human rights! Trans rights are human rights! Human [01:09:30] rights are trans rights! So my name is Will Henson, um, I'm a trans man, um, and I've been here at the, um, anti, uh, the counter protest, um, that's pro trans, anti TERF, the Speak Up For Women, uh, trans exclusionary radical feminists. Or anti trans crowd opposite us, on the barriers opposite us, with all their really long and badly worded signs.[01:10:00] And we're here with lots of colour and noise and, um, we've been protesting to show our support for trans communities. Can you describe what the feeling's been like? Uh, it's been, I feel like it's been a whole mixture of feelings for me. I've felt, it's been kind of tense. And when the anti trans groups started to come up towards the fence, it was a bit tense. And they started getting closer, but it turned pretty quickly into celebration, as you can probably hear behind me. It felt really good to have everyone around. supporting and [01:10:30] all the color and all of the signs and all of the music was fantastic. So I feel really hopeful and really proud. You've just been overseas. I think you're in Canada. Yeah. Um, can you tell me what, give me an international perspective on what we're seeing here in Wellington? Yeah. So I've just been in Canada at the Making Trans Histories. Moving Trans History Forward, um, conference at the University of Victoria over there. So I got to meet trans people from all around the world, and everywhere around the world everyone is so concerned about this growing right wing of fascism that is, [01:11:00] um, targeting trans people as their kind of primary scapegoat at the moment. TERFs, the allyship that they have with fascists, um, is really, really strong. And in the United States, of course, there's about like, I don't know, 300 anti trans bills going through at the moment, something ridiculous. So, um, Americans are really, really freaking out and, and everyone around the world, they're facing all of these, this kind of backlash. So, um, yeah, so, um, so there was definitely a feeling that everywhere around the world, everyone's really concerned and [01:11:30] wanting to. figure out ways to strategize together. Why do you think there's a groundswell of kind of anti trans sentiment at the moment? What is driving that? Oh, that's a good question. I'm not sure. I think, um, in general, capitalism is driving the right wing and fascism and, um, TIFs just happen to be at the kind of visible point in that and I guess the trans visibility that we're having kind of has this backlash as well. Trans liberation is growing closer, I think, and so I think that we're getting this backlash as well. When you were [01:12:00] over in Canada, were you able to report to delegates from overseas about what was happening in New Zealand? Because this was at a time when Posey Parker was here, yeah? Yes, I was actually on my flight like the day that the Posey Parker protest in Wellington was happening. Um, so I was telling everyone over there, everyone had kind of.. Started to hear about things, um, and they were all pretty, um, they were all pretty, uh, impressed that so many New Zealanders were out and about, but, um, yeah, I, I think the, the sense I got from a lot of people from the Americas and from Europe was, wow, it's [01:12:30] happening even in New Zealand, but I think maybe they don't necessarily They didn't necessarily realize that, um, we have a really strong anti trans current over here as well, um, and a lot of that's been, but it's been driven by, um, the UK, and it's been driven by the United States, and, uh, I believe Posey Parker was funded by a right wing U. S. lobby group, so, um, even though we do have a strong and vocal contingent here, they are a minority, They're very, very small. Um, we've got way more people in support, and especially way more lesbians in support. And I think that's a narrative that gets drowned out a lot. But [01:13:00] the lesbian group that are part of Speak Up for Women are very, very small and tiny. They're just very loud. And we have to say, because actually you, you, you weren't here, but um, it was an amazing feeling in Civic Square when Posey had left New 4, 000 trans supporters in Civic Square. So the um, size of support, particularly here in um, Te Whanganui o Tāna is huge. Yeah, which is fantastic. And I guess the other thing I've been thinking about, I've been thinking while I've been standing here at Parliament about, in 2004, the first protest on [01:13:30] record that was for trans issues in front of Parliament, um, I believe it was for the gender identity amendment to the Human Rights Bill, I think, that Georgina Beyer was leading and the The size of the crowd was quite small, but I saw some familiar faces even from then, like Roger Swanson, he was in that crowd, and now he's here again 20 years later. I was thinking about that, and I was thinking about, um, in 1974, the first trans protest on record outside, uh, public bathrooms in Christchurch, uh, was a sit in by the Transsexuals and Transvestites Union. joined by the local [01:14:00] lesbian feminist group, She, and by the Christchurch Gay Liberation Front. And I don't know how many numbers were there, but I imagine it was quite small, so I guess seeing, uh, how many more numbers, and knowing that we've got that long and proud history, but it's a history that's growing in momentum, um, is really exciting. And it's hugely courageous to be here today, because actually there, there is.. There is, there is kind of rhetoric being spouted that is like really hateful. It is scary, and I feel especially for, um, my trans siblings who are more [01:14:30] visible, and uh, for trans women especially, um, I know Eli Rubushkin was here, um, who's a friend of mine, and I was pretty, yeah, nervous for their safety, nervous for everyone's safety really, because. Yeah, they're pretty spiteful over there, on that side of the barrier. But the protest organisers managed it really well. They did a really awesome job and kept everyone feeling safe. So this year is going to be an election general election in New Zealand. Do you have any words for politicians or would be politicians? Um, I guess my only words are, [01:15:00] um, Support, listen to trans communities, and listen to people who've advocated for trans communities for a long time, like Dr. Elizabeth Kirikiri, who's done fantastic work backing us for a long, long time, and it's people like her that I'm giving my support to, yeah. Uh, we're outside of Parliament, um, I'm a trans woman, a trans teenager, and I guess I care a lot about, uh, advocating for my community. Can you describe the crowds? Yeah, so, uh, there seemed to be two different crowds, uh, Speak Up for Women, which was a group of TERFs who were [01:15:30] speaking out against trans people and trans rights, and on the other side we had the queer community, uh, shouting in solidarity for trans people. Were you able to speak at all? Yes, I was able to speak. Um, I waited 20 minutes inside the Speak Up For Women group and, uh, cheered along with them to all their speeches, and I waited my turn and I was able to give a speech. And I said to them, I said, I am a 17 year old biological female. I am scared of my future. My bodily autonomy is up for debate each day. They were cheering along with me. me I said how I've [01:16:00] been sexually harassed, walking down the street and I get paid less than my male counterparts in work, they're all cheering along with me. And at the end of my speech I said, and most importantly, I'm a transgender woman. My name is Willow and I'm a biological female and I'm 17 years old and I'm scared of my future. My body is debated by grown men. I have been raped. I am followed home. I am harassed. I am paid less than my male counterparts at my job. What does [01:16:30] the future hold for me? My rights are debated on a daily basis. People who have no idea about what it means to live as a woman are debating what's in my pants. And most importantly, I am a trans woman. And we will always be here. I transitioned when I was 15 years old. I walked down this street as a woman. I am seen as a woman. I have been raped by men. I have [01:17:00] been harassed. We have existed prior to colonization. Munafuka one and F. Colonizers came and brought hatred And that's when they started shouting mad at me because they had no other, um, argument other than to just call me a man and try, ironically, silence me. [01:17:30] So I walked out of there and I think that was.. It's quite an accomplishment showing them that I do in fact go through the same struggles as them and they agreed with that up until they knew my biological sex, which if I hadn't disclosed it, I think I would have gone away with it. It's an incredibly courageous thing to do to go right into that group. I guess so. I thought it was just funny to be honest. I think it's a very ironic thing to do and I think it was successful. How would you describe both rallies today? Very [01:18:00] passionate on both sides. Um, I don't think there was. Um, much love coming from the Speak Up for Women group. I think there's nothing but aroha exerting from the queer community today. And I think that's such a demonstration of what's really going on. We've got people who just want to exist and to be loved and to love. And then we've got another group of people who take issue with that. This year is a general election here in New Zealand. Um, is there anything you'd like to say to the politicians? Mmm. Show up for us. [01:18:30] Not just when the cameras come out, and not just when you're interviewed and you want to name drop us for the sake of furthering your political career, show up for us in policy and in community. Advocate for us every step along the way because we do need you right now more than ever. So, my name's Tiahi, I'm a queer ally but a cishet man myself. Um, and this is, it's definitely been an experience. I've done marshalling a couple other times, but I, the thing with those is we were more expecting, um. [01:19:00] Resistance and we were not met with much, but this one we knew it was going to be here and it was and that was a very different experience, uh, from my point of view, but on the whole, um, I'm really proud of how we did. Uh, there was no real aggression. Um, and there was no Uh, real animosity between the two groups at the time. Uh, it was definitely, you know, yelling and jeering, but that's as far as that went. So I'm proud of us for, um, like, monitoring that, uh, and [01:19:30] having some control about how we manage ourselves in that situation. I'm very proud of everyone there. But, um, I just wanted to say, when we fought for the rights of women over a century ago, um, we won. And now we just have to fight to retain those rights. When we fought for the rights of Maori many years ago, we won, and now we are fighting to retain those rights. Uh, when we fought for the rights of marriage, uh, gay marriage and gay couples, [01:20:00] we fought and we won, and now we fight to retain those. Um, and one day we will fight to retain these, because we will win. Because that is what history has shown us. IRN: 3596 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/city_talks_in_behind.html ATL REF: OHDL-004711 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093101 TITLE: City Talks - In/Behind USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Andrew Caldwell; Jan Smitheram; Matt Ritani; Vivian Lyngdoh; William Creighton INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 2020s; Andrew Caldwell; Aotearoa New Zealand; Carmen Rupe; Cuba Street; Jan Smitheram; Khasi tribe; Matt Ritani; Mātauranga Māori; Nazism; Neo-Nazism; Ngāti Toa Rangatira; Posie Parker; Pulse nightclub (Orlando, USA); Tahlia Aupapa-Martin; Te Kāhui Whaihanga New Zealand Institute of Architects; Tennent Brown Architects Ltd; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Vivian Lyngdoh; Wellington; Wellington City Gallery; Wellington Pride; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); William Creighton; academia; academics; architecture; bell hooks; heteronormativity; queer; queer space; safe space; takatāpui DATE: 20 March 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Wellington City Gallery, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the panel discussion In/Behind, held at City Gallery Wellington on 20 March 2023. Matt Ritani (Ngāti Toa Rangatira) leads the panel discussion that explores the unique qualities of queer space-making and how space can be an expression of identity, aroha and innovative domesticity. A special thanks to NZIA Wellington (New Zealand Institute of Architects Wellington Branch) and participants for allowing this to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Hi, uh, uh, welcome to the First City Talk of 2023. Um, we're all very glad to have you here, um, today to [00:00:30] talk about, um, Queer space making in . Um, uh uh, hi. Um, uh, [00:01:00] Just wanted to acknowledge, um, Te Kahui Whaihanga Wellington branch, um, for organising this talk. Uh, also our hosts, City Gallery and, um, also the Wellington City Council Event Fund that supports, um, this kaupapa. Um, so today we have some time, um, and some space to share a conversation. Um, I'll be introducing you to, um, our panellists shortly who will introduce themselves. Um, [00:01:30] and we'll be going through a series of questions and, um, a conversation, and then we'll round out for Pātai at the end. So, aye. Um, so I will hand it over to.. Kia ora, or just let me know if it's too loud. Um, iti taha, uh, iti taha o toku mama iuri au, um, no Aotearoa. Iti taha o tōku [00:02:00] pāpā, um, Hi uri o no whenua moemoea. So, my father is embarrassingly from Australia, but I grew up here. Um, my name is William. I'm a recent graduate of Victoria, where I studied under Jan. Um, and my thesis was on queer space, um, in particular about anti urbanism and kind of finding these little hidden moments of queerness, um, through spatial research. Um, I'm now working at Tenet Brown Architects in the city, um, and I've been there for coming up a [00:02:30] year on Monday, next week, so, whoo! Um, and my boss is up there as well, so, very supportive. Yep, that's a little bit about me. I'll pass over. Kia ora tatou, namaste, I'm Vivian Lindo, I, I'm from, um, the north, northeast of India from a small tribe named the Khasi tribe. Um, I come from a.. beautiful line of feminine energy because we follow the matrimonial society in northeast India. Um, the work I [00:03:00] do, I sit as co chair of London Pride Festival, so I'm a maker of queer spaces, um, within Puneke. I also sit in a, um, select committee in government called the Fakipiri, which is providing advice, um, to government as to how to be more accessible for our rainbow communities in the public service. Um, I'll leave it there, but I'm very excited to be here today, so thank you so much for having us, Matt. Hi, I'm Jan, um, Dr. Jan [00:03:30] Smitheram. And I, I suppose one way to situate myself is I'm an academic at Victoria University of Wellington, where I'm now into my 17th year of teaching there. Um, I've, again, as William's already pointed out, I supervised his thesis on queer space. Um, the other thing I was going to mention is.. I still play Pokemon Go. There we go. Kia ora. Um, one thing I also just want to cover off, um, in the conversation that we're going through today, um, [00:04:00] and some of the content that we're dealing with, um, deals with uh, transphobia and racism. So, just wanting to do a bit of a content warning for that, um, both those who are online and here. It's also kind of safe to move out of the space if it's, um, uncomfortable for you as well, so just wanted to acknowledge that at the outset. Um, I was really excited about, um, pulling together this conversation when I was asked to by, um, the Wellington branch. [00:04:30] And, um, I guess as a starting provocation for this conversation, I reflected on, I guess, someone that I felt was.. a very important queer space maker in Pōneke, and for those who are unfamiliar on the screen, you can see Carmen Rupe, Ngāti Maniapoto, Ngāti Hauā, Ngāti Hikiawai. Recently, we, our whānau were going through some kind of whakapapa information, and I found out that [00:05:00] she actually is a relative. of mine, um, through our, um, dad grew up in, in Dinnyvirk, which was quite close to Toa Mata Nui, um, but, uh, Carmen, I think, was extremely influential, um, in establishing queer spaces, uh, both in Wellington, um, but I, I guess even kind of politically across the Motu, um, even though she was based here in, in Sydney as well. Um, and so the name of this.. Talk. Um, and [00:05:30] behind comes from Carmen's, um, mural t campaign slogan, uh, get in Behind . Um, which as you can imagine at that time was quite, um, a challenging and trans transgressive, um, comment. And, you know, she was kind of mold breaking, um, in, in, in who she was and, and the things that she was able to do. And I was also reflecting on. Um, attributes of I guess queer spaces [00:06:00] that I had inhabited and the, um, this notion of they were not always kind of directly out there or kind of present in the urban realm and there was often like a process of access and um, maneuver to find yourself and locate yourself within that queer space. So, um, that's kind of the starting point for our conversation tonight, um, that our panel is going to respond to. Um, [00:06:30] but I guess with that as a, as a starting point, my first, uh, Part I for our panel is what does queer space making mean for you? I think with queer space. It's There's kind of an almost undefinable characteristic to it Um, I know I've talked a lot to Matt about it and Jan as well through the research but it's so much about a feeling of acceptance in that space and in order to make that Environment is [00:07:00] so Challenging because you're trying to translate a feeling into a physical, but it's a feeling that's so personal to each queer experience. And I think part of the challenge that we face moving forward as queer people is like, you have your own experience, but that might not be cohesive with other queer experiences, so then how do you articulate that in an environment? And so I think what we're finding now with architecture is that queer space making becomes a far more collaborative project. Um, which is great, because you get that sort of breadth of experience and voices [00:07:30] coming out. Um, in moments like this, where we don't have all architects and we don't have all practicing. Um, yeah, it provides that kind of opportunity where those kind of secondary voices are brought forward. Um, so yeah, for me, Queerspace is really about that collaboration. So, yeah, I'll pass it on. Um, for me, Queerspace, um, especially when I'm lecturing, I always mention it as a safe space. So, being a safe space, by that I mean a space where you can actually question [00:08:00] heteronormative ideals, but also a space where you can express your sexuality, your gender, without being qualified, marginalized, or dismissed for your position. Um, yeah, so in terms of teaching, I always rest, and it's infiltrated through all of my lectures now, just, um, Sarah Hadnead's work in terms of actually being able to feel like you can take up space. And the fact that if you take up space.. [00:08:30] that you can feel a part of that space. Thank you. Um, for me, queer spacing would be, personally from becoming co chair at Wellington Pride, is to look who is missing in the room. Um, and as I navigated through Pride Festival, I noticed Many faces like myself, who's brown, and many of my friends who are black and indigenous and people of color are missing from queer spaces. So addressing the whiteness has come through in queer spaces and completely marginalized [00:09:00] us as people within the margins itself. So through the Pride Festival, what we did was, um, with my co chair, um, Talia Opapa Martin, who's one of the very first, um, indigenous people to become co chair for. Uh, the Wellington Pride Festival. We community, we did a community design, um, to implement a document called Te Fariki. Te Fariki is this foundational document that acknowledges the harm that, you know, pride has created to particular marginalized communities. [00:09:30] And start creating.. spaces, particularly within these communities to be allowed to come into pride. Um, so, and this also was voted in and we're going to hold, you know, future pride boards accountable so that they, when they make spaces, um, within the queer diaspora that they think of all of those communities have been forgotten. Um, so that's my passion for queer space making. Um, but I'll pass it on to the next part. I just kind of stepping through a few conversation, I guess [00:10:00] for me and this question, um, Um, I was reflecting on like a space that I had inhabited, which again, um, is, this is a photo of me and I think Vivian is in the background somewhere, but, um, this comes from an event that, um, Vivian organized called Frills, um, and it was a really kind of incredible party, and, and I was reflecting and, um, leading into this conversation like the, the qualities that made it quite, [00:10:30] Kind of extraordinary and um, just the way that people would dress up, the textiles, the color, the like vast permutations that a human could possibly represent themselves within this thing changed the space, um, that was occurring, that I was kind of entering there and as did I as kind of a participant in the, in the fabric of that space, so um, yeah, that's kind of what that meant. Go [00:11:00] For me, um, I think I'd like to circle back to our conversation about, um, safe spaces. And particularly, uh, in the current time, both within New Zealand and more internationally, um, this image, for those who are not familiar, is from the Pulse nightclub shooting. For those who are not aware, it was, um, a kind of terrorist act against, um, [00:11:30] the Latinx community, um, who were attending Pulse nightclub at the time, so queer Latinx, um, community, so, um, Jan, as you were saying before, the kind of, um, the space to be oneself without a mask. Yeah. Kind of restraint or anything like that, um, is one thing in your kind of identity, but it is another thing, again, in your physical safety. So, keen on kind of reflections and [00:12:00] safer space more broadly at this current time. Safe space, again, is quite a challenge because you're dealing with the intersectionality of other issues as well. So, I mean, a safe space for me might not be a safe space for Jen, or.. For Vivian, and I think that's also, yeah, kind of hard to articulate spatially. You're obviously dealing with kind of simple concepts like lighting and lines of safety when it comes to architecture. But, in a lot of our urban space, that isn't [00:12:30] always possible. Um, and there's also, you know, a time and place for it, a less lit area still being a safe space or an environment where someone can feel comfortable. So, yeah, I guess the difficulty is trying to articulate it. And providing a range of those spaces throughout the urban fabric, which kind of catered to a variety, but then you have these kind of main thoroughfares that provide this kind of like spine network where people feel really safe, it's well lit. Um, you can kind of see [00:13:00] that a little bit with Cuba Street, which provides kind of a bit of both, where it's, it's, you know, there's a lot of passive surveillance through occupation of that space, but then you also have these kind of Side streets and back corners that provide a kind of privacy that you don't get on the main part of Cuba Street. So Yeah, safety is kind of there's not necessarily one right answer I don't know if that's helping or more confusing, but maybe that's gonna be the thing tonight Um, safe space would be, you know, I was just reading up today, um, on a study done by Dr. [00:13:30] um, Fraser down at the University of Otago, um, where they, um, interviewed a small section of, um, queer people and queer people in general face a higher amount of homelessness. In, not even, not only in Altea, but across the world, we represent 5 10% of the population, but we statistically, um, face homelessness about 20 40%. So, um, and it's even worse as you go through the intersections of marginalization for, for queer people. So, safer space for [00:14:00] me is having a home, to be honest. Um, because You know, a social housing that is, um, that's welcoming to our communities, and it's lacking at the moment in El Tiro. It needs to be called out, um, to government to address these issues properly. And as we look across, you know, what's happening at the moment in, in Melbourne, if you all have not seen the transphobia that's come through, um, you know, Posy Carker, um, recently, and, um, yeah, you could see the, the systems of authority that were supposed to protect, [00:14:30] um, you know, trans people and people who are here for trans rights were actually standing beside, um, you know, neo Nazis and TERFs. And that's something that we have to address, um, here in Aotearoa as well, as you Navigates away over here. Um, yeah, so safer spaces is like you said, it's a sense of feeling at home, to be honest, but at the moment systems are in place that are not. Allowing us to do that. Um, that's reality for us. [00:15:00] Um, but, um, we keep on fighting to find, to get more safer spaces here. I'm just reflecting since I started the shift in direction of conversation in terms of a safe space. Um, and again, you know, the conversations around safe spaces. space that Manuel had with the development of his thesis. It was critical to, you know, just how the project evolved. But I'm also reflecting on the fact that I approached safe space from a very safe academic way of framing it. Um, if [00:15:30] you didn't notice, I was quoting Ahmed, but there was also Stuart Allen in there as well, who I was quoting. And that's kind of a safety in itself. So, I suppose I'm just reflecting it's quite nice to frame these things without the question of what does it actually feel like. What does it actually mean when you're experiencing that? And that also goes into, I suppose, that notion of camouflaging a little bit as an academic. So normally instead of dealing with these issues head on, you know, you don your black and then kind of blend in while you kind of quote [00:16:00] people. But there's actually something that's actually felt about that. I was reflecting also in our conversation, um, uh, about, and I guess, uh, Uh, academia is one context and, um, as queer spacemakers in practice, um, is another context, but a particular question for you, Will, around what, um, what does it mean to, I guess, practice whilst queer?[00:16:30] My boss is up here, so be careful what I say. No, I'm kidding. Um, I mean, the first thing is to, and this is not always easy coming out of a research environment where.. I think you, I mean, most of us have experienced a pretty unilateral kind of opinion, especially around queerness that I think it's important to find a place to work where you feel accepted. I think that's the main priority. That's like absolute 101. Um, and I know that's not always, you know, it's a privilege to be able to say that I've been lucky enough to find that [00:17:00] space, but I think it's also one of those things that even in those spaces, you're going to get conversations come up, which are really. Um, slightly more challenging, let's say, than an academic environment, but those conversations, to be able to be open minded about educating people, um, certainly plays a role in that as a graduate. And it's, I mean, I think in particular with my research and thesis, it kind of, it's, yeah, you kind of put your queer hat on around the lunch table sometimes, but I think that's also really helpful because people are really interested in understanding that [00:17:30] if they're not from a queer background. And I think. There's also an honor, I think, or a privilege to be able to help them on their journey in understanding queerness. Um, there's moments of challenge through that. Um, and you don't want to talk on behalf of everyone in the industry and everyone in the queer community. Especially, I mean, you talk about architecture and we talk about diversity and it still has a way to go. So I think there are elements of not wanting to speak for other people. But, yeah, I think it's about playing [00:18:00] a small part of.. Um, yeah, part of everyone's journey in the office and, and just being there if, if someone needs to talk about it, I think it's, yeah, just being open minded. Um, I'll re, re put that question back to you, Jen, but I, there were a few things from our discussion that I just want to frame it with. Um, first, so it might be, I might do a vigil, so tell me a bit if I'm wrong, but um, there was a bell hooks quote that you shared with us, um, [00:18:30] queer not being about who you are having sex with, that can be a dimension of it, but queer as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live. So I was interested in your observations, and I know we've had a few conversations so far about the academic space and working in the academic space, but in a similar way to, um, well, kind of your reflections on that. I suppose in terms of working in an academic [00:19:00] space, first of all, um, I suppose I wanted the bell hooks quote there. Because one of the first exhibitions in architecture at Storefront Art in New York. I haven't quite got the name quite right there. Um, but it was actually not just, you know, it had Beatrice Colomina, Mark Wigley. Um, so that's a married couple, um, and it also had Eva Koska Sedgwick there. So it wasn't just, um, about, again, who you were having [00:19:30] sex with, but it was actually taking care to explore what queer space was. Um, in terms of being an academic, um, I'm always trying to work towards creating a safe space for students wanting to explore, you know, queer space in their thesis. But my approach is normally an intersectional approach. So an intersectional approach means that I'm interested in the intersections between gender, race, class, and sexuality and actually how [00:20:00] these are interrelated in terms of oppression or domination and actually also questions around privilege as well. And you know in terms of offering that as a Just kind of little opening places and actually the best placed in terms of an opening conversation Is I actually had my courses reviewed by the deputy Vice Chancellor Mataranga Maori and just in terms of just getting [00:20:30] words that to use in your course That starts to open out spaces for people to engage with Mataranga Maori in my theory course Or in terms of queer space. So it's kind of embedded in there, kind of an intersectional perspective, but more in terms of creating an opening. So for me, that's what education is, is creating this opening that people feel that it's, they can, it's a relatable space, you [00:21:00] know, but it's still a space of questioning and self reflection. Um. Another kind of observation that I want to make, um, following, following the Pulse example is, um, this is, and Vivian you might be able to speak more detailed to this, but this was a, um, I think a queer youth centre in Tauranga, yeah, that was, um, burnt down I think last year, um, [00:21:30] and I know If we look at the kind of examples in the US right now, where we have, um, kind of drag story time events being, being protested by kind of armed, um, people, uh, in the US context, I, I think it's really important to acknowledge that we are not so far away from that, um, and I think even if you were reflecting on New Zealand context, that kind of violence is not, um, foreign to these shores, shores either, so, [00:22:00] um, um, I just wondered while, while we're here and we'll move into a kind of a more theory space, but these are kind of very practical and real things for our community, um, and the safety of our communities and um, the constant work of, of maintaining them as safe spaces. But just wondering if from the work that you're doing, Vivian, if there's anything more that you'd like to speak in that space? Um, thanks for bringing up, um, um, you know, what happened in Auckland and [00:22:30] also what happened in Tauranga and recently, you know, last year that happened in Greymouth, I think, um, to Sam's church, um, who, um, they lovely, they turned it into a pink church in the West Coast, which is amazing. But, um, you know, what we tend to do in Aotearoa is we tend to think from what the conversations I've had that we, uh. Very different from, you know, ideologies, but it's filtering through America, but as the more conversations I have had here, especially at decision making tables, it [00:23:00] really comes through though. It's not that different at all. It just takes one person who's able to lead and believe in alt right wing ideology and lead and make these people come out. They would work. Um, And it also makes me reflect on this conversation, which I had, um, with a friend in Bangladesh, actually. Um, there was this queer activist, um, that started a, a safe queer space for his gay friends, um, and then got hunted down by, You know, [00:23:30] like that terrorist groups there, um, and unfortunately, one of them passed away, but he was able to give a call to his brother in the UK who flew him to Sri Lanka to escape. So, um. It, you know, it, it was quite an eye opening, um, story, really, around queer spaces, because it was supposed to be a safe haven, and there was no systems of protection in place that they got, um, and this is quite prevalent throughout the world, right, and it's even more so [00:24:00] now, um, as more alt right wing organizations come into board. Um, yeah, I'll just, that's just my thoughts on that. I think just to reply to that as well, we had a little bit of a talk last week about The idea of what we felt was the most safe space we've been in and I think you kind of immediately think oh It must be like a gay bar, but in actuality those Spaces aren't necessarily our safest in some way they provide kind of like a safe framework to be in but by organizing yourself in such a way and [00:24:30] the public realm you also As a result of that kind of protest of occupation, you end up putting a target on yourself. So I feel like that's a classic example of, okay, we're trying to come together in this environment and build this network kind of grassroots style, but then that immediately gets targeted. Um, so yeah, just building on what you've said about how we're not actually that far away from that line. Um, and that I think of. For me at least, I can talk that like some of the places where I felt safest is [00:25:00] actually when you kind of don't express queerness in such a way, um, with that kind of assimilation into heteronormative spaces where actually you kind of end up feeling safe. So, I don't know. It's kind of a challenging dynamic. We also thought it would be fun to have some good books and reading and theory. Um, to come out of this. So there's a, um, a series of, um, [00:25:30] books that we're going to talk to briefly and then go into another area. But, um, Jose Esteban Reynos is Cruising Utopia, um, to talk about, I guess, the, um, the stability of a queerness or, um, this ambition or this, um, this hope for. How queer people might live, um, he always discusses that as like a horizon of, a horizon that you never arrive at, [00:26:00] that, that is always shifting and evolving and changing and, um, one of the reflections that I have from that I guess is like, I don't know, the, the constant work that is required to advance that and to, um, ensure that our queer spaces evolve, accommodate, um, um, To kind of include, include everyone, um, under the umbrella that, that should be included within those spaces. I think I started [00:26:30] doing the list, didn't I? Oh, because I started going, oh, this book came out first, and then I went, no, it's the wrong one. Like, this came out before Betsky's book. Um, but I suppose I wanted to start there because it was, when I was a student, it was always on my desk. I just found it really such an exciting book because it was challenging that boundary between, especially private and public space, in a way that no other book at the time. So this came out in 1996. So, that kind of dates when I was at school, [00:27:00] but, yeah, it was brand new then, it's a bit weathered now, probably because of me. Betsky, 1997. So, I suppose, I mean, this was, it's been an important book for, um, everybody that I've supervised in different ways, or telling them to stop looking at it. I can see you pal, I'm sorry. Um, you know, because it was framing Queer Space in a very interiority, interior way, and it was also at a time when You know, queer space [00:27:30] was defined in terms of a white male, so it's been critiqued a lot since then, which was also in your thesis. It's working? Oh yeah. I think also from what you talked about a lot is that, and what we mentioned earlier was that with queer space by Betsky is that it's almost entirely oriented around the act of sex and our understanding of queerness has expanded so far beyond that now that even though this was kind of pioneering at the time it's It's aged a bit like blue cheese. Yep. [00:28:00] Yeah. Sorry for those of you that like Gorgonzola. Another thing, in the preparatory conversations that we've had, um, we kind of quickly abandoned wanting to arrive anywhere, um, cause it seemed that everything sort of meandered and everything was related to everything. But, um, uh, a strong element that came out of that conversation was this notion of a, of a queer materiality and I guess the divergences and [00:28:30] changes of what that could be, um, in different contexts for, um, for different people, but, um, we were reflecting on, um, uh, I guess, A lot of materials that we see within a kind of queer nightlife space have attributes of, um, vibrant visual effects, reflectiveness, um, They're very impactful, but they're also, [00:29:00] um, very light, fragile, temporal, um, Maybe don't have a particularly long shelf life, and I wondered in some ways that that was kind of a Both beautiful and kind of, um, sad reflection of queer, queer people as well, and in the same way that they are vibrant and, and, and beautiful, but at the same time have all of these kind of challenges and fragilities, not, not everyone, of course, but, um, yeah, so I [00:29:30] guess, cause I know that there are some diverse perspectives within this group. Um, if I was to kind of ask you what a queer materiality is, what, what do you think of? I think. And this is something that we've talked about. It's like the difference between fashion and architecture is quite small. And so when you talk about things like glitter or kind of tints, like tinsel y sort of textures, that also comes through a lot in fashion, so. There's almost like a softness to queer [00:30:00] materiality or there's a human scale because it's so personable in the way that it's created. So I don't know, can I say linen or a sort of fabric that seems transparent but still covers? I think that's where my mind goes is like this idea of again, of hiding or revealing yourself through the material. Um, so yeah, kind of like a semi transparent sort of a linen colorful though. Um, queer materiality for me is, um, it's not really physical. I [00:30:30] think it's more like shared kai with all my queer friends. Um, we tend to do that quite a bit. And, um, And just share experiences and share stories, um, and design our food to reflect a particular cuisine, you know, and it's just that deeper level of belonging, um, and that's how it materializes for me personally, um, as it allows me to navigate, um, conversations when it comes to policy making or legislation or any of [00:31:00] that, um, because those spaces, issues. materializes that way for me, um, and I love all the glam of, you know, that Frills has created as well because that has created a lot of stories, um, that has definitely, um, aligned me about what I'm doing with the Pride Festival. Well, I was the one. In our earlier discussions, it always shifted away that the tinsel's been packed away now. Um, so there's some sort of ambivalence to materiality. [00:31:30] So, I flipped through my Queer Space book, which is sitting on the other side of the couch, which I had to bring for a prop for whatever reason. So I started flicking through that through the weekend. And, trying to go.. You know, what happens in this kind of ambivalent space. So, my example, which you can see is, um, noted there, again, I've gone for an example, is looking at a mixed design and Joel Saunders Architects in terms of, again, creating a safe space. So, just the redesigns of public toilets at an [00:32:00] airport, um, that is actually open to everyone. So, instead of, um, going with gender binaries in terms of designing the bathrooms, they just went with elimination, washing, and grooming. And so, for me, I'm going with that as materiality, rather going on about fading tinsel. There are just a few, a few ones that I wanted to touch on here. Um, this is the cover from Sophie's The Oil of Every [00:32:30] Pearl's Uninsides. I may have got that wrong. Um, who was an electronic musician who I think passed away in, in 2019. Um, but there, there's an, an interview, um, from her, uh, where she was talking about kind of, um, electronic music. And I remember vividly that she talked about what would the sound of a piano that was as tall as a mountain. Sounds like. And, um, These [00:33:00] are a number of, I think, slides or most of them are slides of these, um, that were kind of various EP covers for all of these songs. And again, these slides don't exist. They're, um, entirely kind of synthetic. And I also think of the work of, um, Aka, who's also a trans musician kind of existing within the same space that is, Um, Kind of epic, but isn't real, but like, is real, [00:33:30] because it is, that, that sort of thing. So, those were the, these are the kind of ones that I return to, and, um, thinking about, um, what a queer materiality is or could be. Um, cool. So, moving on. Uh, we're, we, of course, Um, or practice in different ways within the space and relate to queer space in different [00:34:00] ways. I'm really interested in kind of, um, where, where you're located in the work that you do. How your queerness influences the way that you work or the way that you operate. Hi. Hi. Um, I'm still figuring this out. I think I'm only a year in practice and I think it's a slow burn, but. Um, Andrew and I, in a kind of wider group, um, a lot are here tonight, um, have been working on a bit of a project, and maybe Andrew [00:34:30] can say a few words in Q and A, possibly, um, about this, but, um, yeah, working on how do we fulfill or create a guideline document for, um, NZIA to pass out to firms around public bathrooms and how they can be more equitable, um, and hopefully at one point they might get into legislation. Um, so we'll see how far we can push it, but, um, yeah, I think there's a, an element of, of coming together as multiple queer people practicing, um, that can be [00:35:00] really advantageous. Again, it's just about creating a unified kind of group of people, but with different opinions and different voices. Um, I know from that conversation, there was a difficulty around, okay, certain religions don't. I don't actually want totally gender neutral bathrooms, and so how do you facilitate occupation that has those intersections of, you know, allowing the broadest range of possible occupation, especially in public space is critical, um, [00:35:30] I don't know, it's kind of a roundabout way, my identity, yeah, um, yeah, I think it's about advocacy, but it's also about implementation, and I think there's a opportunity for both in practice, and I think The day to day is very much about like, Oh, I mean, one of my bosses came up to me and we're doing a retrofit of a, of a tall building in the city and was asking, Oh, how do I, how do I make this a better bathroom? Because the sheer walls are so tight and it's an old building and it was a gender split bathroom orientation when it was first built. How do I do it [00:36:00] if there's multiple, um, businesses on the same floor? So really difficult questions that don't necessarily need to get answered. But, I don't know, I'm kind of rambling now, but day to day it's more challenging because if you have to put it pen to paper it's much more complex than just talking about it, or having a conversation around a table, especially for things like retrofits, I think that's almost ten times harder than a new build, with a new build there's kind of no excuse for, yeah, for doing gender bathrooms, but, um, [00:36:30] retrofit is kind of the challenge I think. Yeah, I don't know, ramble off. How does my identity, um, my identity influences all my work, to be honest, um, a being brown, that really influences my work, um, then being queer and being a migrant. So everything I do and every advice I provide, all those three intersections would be combined to provide advice. Um, so they're very blessed to have me because I come from these marginalizations and can speak, I believe on, on, [00:37:00] um, on my own behalf. Um, and the experiences I've experienced here in Aotearoa. Um, yeah, the bathroom one, it's so interesting because we're talking about that at work at the moment. Um, And they're like, we do have gender neutral bathrooms. I was like, well, it's just one floor and it's also an accessible bathroom and we've got 10 floors. So, as you're expecting people in, with accessibility issues and people who are not in the, who are non binary and not gender conforming to go to one bathroom in the building. Um, [00:37:30] so it's those difficult conversations of, um, they're trying to be inclusive, but not all the way. And it's so difficult at, um, and You know, it really hurts me all the time because you're trying to have these conversations with the guise of diversity and inclusion, but it comes to at the detriment of, it only pushes you to a certain path. Um, yeah, but we, but the bathroom one I would love to talk some more, [00:38:00] um, because it is a conversation that keeps coming up at work as well. Um, yeah, but coming back to the identities, I think. Yeah, all those, any marginalization group that I belong in, I will always speak because it always, um, affects my work. I won't say too much because I think I've already addressed this with the question around the influence of my work. Um, yeah, I mean, yeah, I approach my work through an intersectional approach [00:38:30] to my research and increasingly my teaching. Cool. So we have the, we have the quite fun, fun one to, to round up the back end of our, of our conversation. Um, and we have some examples that follow this that we're going to speak to as well. But, um, we're here in Pōneke in, in the city, um, that we love inhabiting. And I, a question that I have for you all is if I were to kind of [00:39:00] challenge you to, you know, you've got unlimited budget. You can do whatever you want, um, anything you like, anything at all. Um, extending on our conversation, um, if you could make, you know, your ideal queer space in this city, can you tell us about it? What would it be like to be there? Um, yeah, this is kind of a conversation that actually all four of us have had a lot about, and it's kind of, I don't know, dreaming, which is great. Um, we talked about, [00:39:30] well for me in particular, I would look at it kind of.. multi user, um, urban intervention, something that includes that sort of housing we talked about, that being a comfort space. And I think that leads on to a lot of Jan's research as well around domestic versus public, public and private, and domestic spaces, I mean, historically have been like a reinforcer of heteronormative relationships. I think housing, and queer housing in particular, is always going to kind of come up against that in some way, which I think is a really exciting opportunity. Um, there's an example, I [00:40:00] think, maybe a slide or two. Um, yeah, uh, next one. Yeah, this one here. So this is the LGBTQ plus center in Victoria, Australia. And, yeah, really interesting. So I think it also includes some sort of housing, um, scheme. But it's very much a community's hub. Um, and kind of speaking on materiality or that temporalness of, um, Yeah, the kind of temporalness of queer materiality. They've kind of gone for the opposite. Like they've done this monolithic concrete. Really, I mean [00:40:30] that's fucking permanent, there's no other way for it. Um, so it's really, you kind of see this as like a future direction of like, Okay, if queer space isn't just about occupation, but if you try and articulate it architecturally, What if you use the material that won't budge, like, I mean that's kind of a fortress, but I think that's kind of, It's camp in a way, because it's like, We're not moving and we're not leaving, and this is an example, and It's in your face, it's, you can't really miss it, so I think that's maybe partly a dream of [00:41:00] like, queer spaces. It's just having that sense of permanence, yeah. It's like, we're here and it's actually not gonna change. And, yeah. Specialize it. Um, I suppose last time when we did discuss this, the kind of joke was with William that like, why didn't you do that for your thesis if this was your dream? But anyway, that was kind of where I ended up starting the conversation. Um, but again, I'll shift into my academic comfort zone, which is saying that rather than a space, just again that [00:41:30] notion that Queer Space for me is interesting because it's a messy term. And it's kind of within that messiness that you can always ask questions, and sometimes those.. They can be quite hard questions. So, you know, for me, that's kind of, this open endedness of always asking these questions. That's where I'm at, rather than a physical example. I think I would really like something campy. Yeah, um, Yeah, um, I would go with your answer. [00:42:00] Campy, permanent, um, allowing for different groups to exist. You know, and that. Um, and bang on the centre, Wellington. Um, so you can't miss it at all. It'll be absolutely fantastic to have that and just, yeah, where conversations can happen, really, for us to be as gay as possible. Um, could you tell us a bit more about this colourful pyramid? Um, so this is a.. [00:42:30] Yeah, so, actually, Riley will know who this is as well, um, this is Adam Nathaniel Furman's work, um, I was lucky enough to be part of the dissent committee way back in undergrad a few years ago, um, and I was really fortunate to meet Adam through that process, they're a queer designer and, um, yeah, based in London, and their work is really camp, really colourful, um, they've also kind of dealt with the intersection of permanence, a lot of their work is installation based, um, or kind of object based, [00:43:00] But this piece is one of their work. It kind of builds on post modernism. It's like post post modernist. Um, which I'm sure is like, a TERF's like hellhole. But, yeah, it's really cool. And I actually went and saw him when I was in London and his office is as colourful as this and as crazy as this and he has this gorgeous dog. And, yeah, fantastic. So I recommend following him because he's political and architectural and colourful and all those fun things.[00:43:30] We're going to do a bit of rinsing and repeating because we're actually very lucky to have a designer of Quest Faces here tonight, which is you. So, um, we have some of your thesis work and just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about it. So this is, yeah, okay, a couple of years ago now. So this was an installation very early on. This was the testing of materiality. And again, uh, It's kind of based on the understanding of [00:44:00] perception between two people. So how the materiality can blur or distort your understanding of the other person physically. And so if you remove that physical barrier, um, of kind of the visual judgment that you get when you meet someone initially, if that's then disrupted by the material, then how do you perceive that person if it's not through visual means first? This is a photo I took over in, um, Breaker Bay. And yeah, I think this is an interesting topic. Kind of, or like, point to talk about the occupation of [00:44:30] architecture versus the building of architecture, or in particular queer space. And that the notion of being queer, or having queer space is kind of, or like queer space in itself of, and I think Jan's touched on this, is kind of, Challenging because queerness comes through occupation. It's so much about the person of, of where they are, how they behave, how they feel comfortable. So, we're not really designing queer space so much as space where queerness thrives. Um, and I thought this was a really good opportunity to show that because [00:45:00] it's obviously kind of subversive, they've tagged it, it's not really allowed there, but it's not moving again, it's on concrete, so. I don't know, maybe, oh, okay. Oh, this was fun. I liked this one the most. Um, this was the domestic scale. This was looking at how four non related people could cohabit a house in Martinborough. Um, so I used an existing building that got moved, um, from Kelbyn. It was kind of an old, um, an old villa. And then kind of disrupted it in different ways. You can see the bathroom is actually [00:45:30] inside the circulation zone of this space, so. Your public private boundaries with the people that you live with is really disrupted, um, and then the flooring.. As the circulation leads down to the kitchen, so you kind of are constantly hearing and seeing these kind of moments of, of movement through the people you're living with. So how do we challenge our, because I don't know with houses, like bedrooms are so closed off. It's like a door and four walls. So this house was really about challenging how we, how we cohabit and especially in a non traditional kind of family [00:46:00] unit. And this was Cuba street. This is kind of a quick draft render. Oh, so all of these characters. It started off as people that I was studying with, um, as like inspiration, so, yeah, shout out to them. Um, but this is looking at, again, kind of the temporalness of occupation, but then also the permanence of queer space in an urban fabric. So you have things like, yeah, like the kind of sculptural artwork, which is really permanent, but then you have this kind of light material hanging above, so, [00:46:30] yeah, showing the kind of contrast or variation in what queer space can be represented as. This is my outside scope in the area. Cool. Um, so we have our final pātai for the night, and I guess for our audience who will go out and make queer space. But, um, how can our spaces, Peter Manaaki, our queer whānau, what are the things that we can do? Speaking of menakee, my mom has been [00:47:00] calling me from India, so she calls and she gives me a missed call for 20 missed calls before I pick up. I'm like, Mom, I'm going to call you soon. But, um, how can space better menakee a queer fan? I think, um, One is to keep on having conversations as to what safety means for each group. Um, and not be afraid to enter challenging conversations if you don't come from that particular intersection. Um, because at the end of the conversation, it does create liberation. Um, for me personally and for a lot of people that [00:47:30] I've had conversations with. So I'll go with that. Well, I think I've kind of said the same sort of thing, and I keep on coming back to that notion of safe space, so just, you know, reiterating those points. Um, and also to reiterate, but, and just, I think building on that, it's like giving people the voice as well, and it's not just about being listened to, but it's about being heard. And I think those challenging conversations are also the ones where the most amount of growth happens. So I think it's [00:48:00] important and not that we have to put ourselves in these difficult positions, but sometimes when you're trying to educate or converse with people that those kind of grittiness elements are actually really important. And if obviously if we don't feel up to it, then that's totally fine, but I think that's where real growth comes Yeah, just having that having that hard core Cool so that brings us to [00:48:30] The end of the conversation that that we've had we started of course with with Carmen and Um, those who might be familiar, if you walk up Cuba Street, um, Carmen is immortalized within the traffic crossing sign here, you know, um, bright, temporal, but deeply permanent, um, as well. So, thought that was a nice, um, image to end on. But, um, we can now open up the floor to questions. We've got a couple [00:49:00] of minutes, but.. Kia ora guys. Thank you for your whakaaro tonight. Um, I just wanna ask, like, obviously as designers it's really important that we honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi. And so, how can we decolonise queer spaces? Um, I can answer from a private perspective. That's okay. Um, I early mentioned that, um, the first conversation when I [00:49:30] came on board as co chair along with Talia, we definitely acknowledged that we need to honor disability. Because Pride hasn't done that quite well. Um, the one thing we did was, um, like I said before, we co designed this document called Te Whāraki with an organisation, Kōpapa Māori organisation, called Tātou Tātou. And we had indigenous people and, um, um, sorry, Tangata Whenua, Pasifika, uh, other ethnic minorities as well, to [00:50:00] acknowledge what harm has been done. By pride in Wellington in particular and then set Expectations and practice in place to address those issues in order for our rangatahi to Not face those challenges again and on Saturday. We had the first BIPOC Wananga at Pride, um, to continually listen to Tangata Whenua, to, um, other Tau Iwi, um, and [00:50:30] design, and within that, and design, um, Te Whareki again, and holding accountable future, um, Pride boards, that they need to be Te Tiriti centric, and if they're not, then they're The community can hold them accountable by coming to AGMs and calling them out. And because it is important, because people tend to forget. And we don't want to be, well personally I do not want to be, when Talia and I step down and someone else comes up. And they're like, oh okay, that's just a tech box conversation. And that will never happen again. [00:51:00] Um, so that's why we needed to vote that in. Um, so that's what we're doing in the Pride Festival. Um, in making queer spaces that are designed. Based on Mataranga Maori, really. Yeah. Um, I have a response to that question from, I guess, like a, um, Takatapui Maori architectural perspective is, of course, in pre colonial times, um, our [00:51:30] Takatapui were tohanga. They were knowledge holders within, um, So I think what I would really like to see and it would be, I think there's a really long timeframe for this, but, um, uh, that our rangatahi are supported to evolve into that and that they can design themselves and that they have their mana motohaki, you know, that may be like takatapui marae, that may be those sorts of things. So, I [00:52:00] think it's a very long way off, but I think, um, the best thing to enable that is, uh, uplifting our rangatahi Māori designers, because they are both brilliant and very, very vulnerable, um, and architecture is not a safe space for them. So, um, yeah, how can you nourish that would be my response. Thanks guys, been great. Just sort of reflecting on Jan's comment about [00:52:30] that example from an airport with, you know, de gendering, um, public toilets, and that sort of lack of labelling queer spaces being just open and then accessible to everybody, um, that's obviously, you know, quite an ideal solution to lots of environments, but doesn't necessarily, um, take the sort of opportunities to celebrate queerness in any way.[00:53:00] So, just interested in any reflections on, on that. And in a similar way, just reading something, um, online recently about a bar in Dunedin, Inch Bar, that for some reason iSight labeled as a queer bar, with no knowledge of theirs. And so they then actively campaigned to have that removed, just because their customers were being.. Targeted, which is obviously a bit of a sad result of something. [00:53:30] Um, I think I'll just pause on the bathroom thing, because there has been work done in this space, so I might just throw it over to the audience and Andrew, because I know Will was working on this as well, but could you speak to a bit of the work that your group has been doing? Just a little plug for the group that, um, well, and a number of us, uh, involved in, um, I guess we, we are working on, um, a bit of a, a bit of a guide to help sort of the why question [00:54:00] as to why we need gender neutral bathrooms. Um, and I suppose there's a few different aspects that we're We're going down or different sort of routes that people can sort of take hold of The content like some of them are really functional and money focused because we know that developers or whoever Some some of those people might just be looking for the money and then others are like, oh [00:54:30] we've got to do this for the ethical, but I guess I'm sure everyone in this room is knows that It's what we should be doing, but it's about getting those other people on board. So, um, we are working on that, slowly, um, but, um, if, if anyone is interested in getting involved, do, do come up to me afterwards, um, yeah, um, I grew up in Dunedin, so [00:55:00] I have some firm words for InSpar, um, yeah, I think it's.. It's interesting when you get a place like Dunedin, because it's, there's a huge young population with the students, so there's obviously a certain area of the city that's really, you know, far forward thinking, but there's still a long way to go in these smaller towns, like we are a little bit in an isolated bubble here in Wellington, and I think we tend to be quite in silo a little bit, and how do we break out of that is still, I mean, I don't really know, I still kind of struggle [00:55:30] going home and being there, but yeah, it's, yeah. It's difficult because I think we're in such a progressive bubble here, and we're making great progress, but there's a, there's an equally large bubble, unfortunately, that still exists, um, that still has a long way to go, and places like Dunedin, and, I mean, everywhere has them, but, yeah, it's just, it's kind of, we're only seeing like a surface level symptom of that, but there's a lot more conversation going on behind closed doors, [00:56:00] um, Yeah, that leads to that decision making, but I mean, for things like bars, we, we make a stance with our money, we make a stance by where we go, so, yeah, there's opportunity there to also make your voice heard if it can't be through talking to them, it's also who you support, so. Um, uh, just a few other shoutouts that I'd like to make, if you're interested in understanding more about The queer urban history of Wellington. Um, uh, get Roger and Gareth who are here tonight. I'm [00:56:30] recording, uh, run tours through walk tours. New Zealand. So if you want to learn a little bit more about Wellington's queer history, there is a lot of it. Um, highly recommend that. But, um, thank you for your time tonight and for coming and listening to this kōrero. Um, if you wouldn't mind putting your hands together for our wonderful panel and their whakaaro.[00:57:00] Um, so, uh, thanks everyone. I'll do a karakia to lead us out, but, um, There, I believe, are refreshments in, um, the lobbies, so please stay, enjoy the, enjoy the kororo, and we're very grateful to have you. Gratitude. Happy to have you all here. Ka whakaria te tapu, ke wai tia ae te ara,[00:57:30] ki a turuki whakataha ae, ki a turuki whakataha ae. Haumi e, hui e, ta ariki e. IRN: 3627 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/launch_of_honouring_our_ancestors.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Launch of Honouring our Ancestors USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Alison Green; Fergus Barrowman; Kurt Komene; Marion Castree; Tīwhanawhana INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 2020s; Alison Green; Brian Tamaki; Fergus Barrowman; Honour Project Aotearoa; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Kahutoi Te Kanawa; Kurt Komene; Kīngitanga; Leonie Pihama; Manawaroa Te Wao; Marion Castree; Shane Jones; Shane Reti; Taranaki Whānui; Te Herenga Waka University Press; Te Ā ti Awa; The Honour Project (Canada); Tīwhanawhana; Unity Books; Winston Peters; takatāpui; waiata; whakawahine DATE: 25 July 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Unity Books, 57 Willis Street, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the launch of the book Honouring our Ancestors: Takatāpui, Two-Spirit and Indigenous LGBTQI+ Well-being. The event took place at Unity Books in Wellington on 25 July 2023. The book is edited by Alison Green (Ngāti Awa, Ngāti Ranginui) and Leonie Pihama (Te Ā tiawa, Ngā Māhanga a Tairi, Waikato). More details about the book can be found here. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the event to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Kia orihi te. Kia ora. O Ka rangatia ki te tai whakarunga te tai whakararo ra. Haere mai. Haere mai. Teammate.[00:00:30] [00:01:00] Haere mai, haere mai, haere mai, haere mai, tipana. Tipana wana e kahutura i [00:01:30] te rangi. Ka runga Poneke i te moana raukawale. He kaupapa, he kaupapa nui. Me ara hake ue nuku.[00:02:00] My I am [00:02:30] my community books. Honoring our ancestors, um, editors called Alison Green [00:03:00] University Press. Good evening, everyone. Um, on behalf of us all at Unity Books, um, it's amazing to see you all here in our place to launch this incredible book, uh, honoring our ancestors. Um, [00:03:30] It's been probably a long time in the making of this book, so I think we will appreciate how much work and passion and aroha has gone into making this book. And it's also very beautiful, thanks to the Hemingway Walker University Press. Um, next we'll be hearing from the, one of the publishers, well, the publisher, um, Fergus Barriman from Te Herenga Kia ora. Applause Kia [00:04:00] ora Marion, lovely to be back. Nga mihi nui kia koutou. It's lovely to see you all here for this launch of Honouring Our Ancestors. Um, I'm Fergus Barriman. I have the great pleasure of being the publisher at Victoria University, Te Herenga Waka University Press. We're getting over that little hill. Um, I'd like to thank the Te Whanau Whanau Trust for starting us off. Thank you, Kevin and crew. It's been very generous of you. Um, I'd like to welcome the editor as well. I can welcome [00:04:30] Alison Green, who's here, but the other editor, uh, Leone Pihama, couldn't be here tonight, sadly. Um, you've done wonderful work in bringing together this really important book, and we thank you for that. I want to thank all of the contributors to the book, uh, those here in Aotearoa and those in Turtle Island, for your passion, for your hard work, and for your patience waiting for the book to come out. Um, it's going to be, I think, a really important book for all of your communities. I want to [00:05:00] thank the master weaver and textile artist, Kahutoi Tekanawa. for her magnificent work on the cover, which I think sort of symbolizes the, I don't know what it symbolizes. It symbolizes the passion of the work and the bringing together of this world and the spirit world. I'd also like to mention Jasmin Sargent, editor at. Te Hiringa Walker, um, who's multi talented, and she actually did some [00:05:30] of the finished art to bring this, um, beautiful artwork into sharp focus. And while I'm doing that, I would mention Ashley Young, our managing editor, who with Kylie Hodgson, uh, guided this book. through to publication. One of the contributors to this book, uh, Manawaroa Te Wao, um, sadly passed away recently, um, and she's greatly missed, but we're pleased that her sister, uh, Rukuruku, [00:06:00] can be here for her tonight. Uh, and finally, um, I'd like to thank you all for coming along and pass you back to Te Whanau Whanau, uh, for the next stage of the ceremony. Kia ora tatou. Tēnā tatou, tēnā koutou. Ko Waka Rewika mai rā ki roto i tō tātou piringa. Me ki rā hānei[00:06:30] [00:07:00] [00:07:30] [00:08:00] [00:08:30] [00:09:00] [00:09:30] [00:10:00] [00:10:30] Haere rā, hōri ana, e te aroha e Haere rā koe, e te tuahine He rangatira, wāhine toa[00:11:00] [00:11:30] [00:12:00] Haere rā, mana waro, me aroha e Haere rā, haere rā koe, he te tuahine He rangatira, wāhine toa Mare kura, he kura pounamu e Kia o te[00:12:30] moe Kia o te moe Te Kia o te moe[00:13:00] Ki tō tātou Kingi a Tūawhiti me te Wharekāweriki, Paimari ki a rātou, ki ngā mate pū a piti rangat, [00:13:30] tia haere, mōi mai rā. Tātou te hunga Whānau, I'm so humbled to be here. It's also emotional. Um, losing my sister [00:14:00] just recently. She was a proud and loud lady. Um, she talked me, um, to all the functions. She winked at me. We had a massive, um, National and Patawhata Te Papua Ratu Marae. And I've met so many people through her. [00:14:30] I really, really miss her. Um, it's been hard for all our whanau. Um, but I know she'll say. She would say that. So I'm, I'm going to leave Ari to have, um, Tēnā tātou te whānau. Um, it's a blessing and an honour to be here, uh, for Manoaro.[00:15:00] Yeah, she was a pillar for us, mostly with the Kingitanga and Takatāpui. Yes, it was great. Um, and we're just so honoured to be here to witness the launching of Unwin Our Ancestors. Um, Japan, Canada, USA. And welcome to[00:15:30] Aotearoa. No, Aotearoa. Um, again, um,[00:16:00] Um, thank you everyone for coming together tonight. Um, this cold evening of Maki. Um, to launch our book, um, Matariki, the time for celebrating those who have left us. And the time for welcoming the enormous Māori and indigenous takatāpui and two spirit potential that lies ahead of us all. On behalf of Leonie [00:16:30] Pihama, um, my fellow editor, who's looking after her mokopuna tonight in Pirongia and can't be with us, I thank you, uh, for celebrating this new publication. The publication contains the energies and the aspirations of 28 indigenous authors from across Aotearoa and Turtle Island. Thank you Unity Books for hosting us. I never would have [00:17:00] thought, um, 50 years ago, when I was a young student, uh, that I would ever be here, um, launching a book like this. Uh, thank you to Heringa Waka Press, um, Fergus, Ashley, Craig, Tei, um, our cover artist and friend, uh, recent. Recently honoured Dr. Kahutoi Te Kanua. Um, thank you Dr. [00:17:30] Gillian Tipene, uh, who wrote our mihi and provided our reo Māori expertise and who walked alongside us as an ally. for this book. Um, all together, you were the dream team. Um, but this book would not have happened were it not for our Native American two spirit colleagues from the Honor Project. Um, and I pay special tribute to [00:18:00] Choctaw professor, um, uh, Karina Walters. In 2017, Leonie and I were awarded a large research grant from the Health Research Council of New Zealand. The grant drew its inspiration from the honor project. And from the grant was funded on a Project Aotearoa. The study and the research team and some of you are here tonight. But all [00:18:30] of the team authored or co authored chapters. Thank you to the Health Research Council of New Zealand. Another dream team. Um, as has already been mentioned, we're missing a very important member of our dream team, our kuia for the Honour Project research team. Manaweroa co authored a chapter in the book. She was the subject of a short video. She had Takatāpui friends throughout Aotearoa and [00:19:00] Australia and we were able to draw in those links for the Honour Project Aotearoa. She was a leader. And we miss her dearly. To return to the publication, the book comprises 18 chapters written by 28 authors, all experts in their respective fields. These authors share their perspectives of being Takatapui and Two Spirit, of being queer, of being mokopuna. [00:19:30] Of what it is to be a good ancestor. Of being a transgender woman, mother, sister, grandmother, and a respected elder. Of claiming our Māori and indigenous identities and spaces within our communities. Of living with HIV. Of living with tā moko. Of being American Indian and Alaska Native Two Spirit woman. Of living rich lives in the face [00:20:00] of racism. discrimination, hatred and vitriol, and of Takatapui, Two Spirit and Indigenous LGBTQ resurgence, intergenerational healing, international rights, and Indigenous leadership. We are in difficult times, my friends. Some so called Aotearoa will use anti Takatapui, anti trans, and anti women [00:20:30] messages to win conservative right wing votes in the coming election. Shane Jones, Winston Peters, Shane Reti, Brian Tamaki are the obvious offenders, but there are others. We are all affected by their hatred and vitriol. Our ancestors fought for a better world, for us, and for our mokopuna. So, look out for each other, check in on each other, [00:21:00] care for each other. We want an Aotearoa where everyone, regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, and sexual attraction, is valued and has a role to play. That is our future. Ka nui te mihi. Um, kia korero, kai korero, [00:21:30] um, and ki te manuhiri. It's amazing and an honor to have this on our four walls. Um, and it'll be memorable for all of us. Um, until the next time we meet again. Okay, and hopefully it'll be an amazing situation again. Kia ora rā.[00:22:00] [00:22:30] [00:23:00] No one not talking [00:23:30] one our way.[00:24:00] What.[00:24:30] [00:25:00] . IRN: 3624 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/the_life_and_times_of_georgina_beyer.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: The Life and Times of Georgina Beyer USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Brian Aitken; Catherine Healy; Dale Williams; Georgina Beyer; Grant Pittams; Grant Robertson; Helena Coolen; Ian McKellen; Jacquie Grant; Karen Morris; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Michael Gibbs; Ramon Maniapoto; Richard Tankersley; Steve Chadwick; Tim Barnett; Tīwhanawhana INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 2000s; 2010s; 2020s; Alfies 1; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Big Gay Out (Auckland); Bloomers Review (Alfies); Brian Aitken; Brian Neeson; Brian Tamaki; Carmen's International Coffee Lounge; Carterton; Carterton Daffodil Festival; Carterton District; Catherine Healy; Catholicism; Chanel Hati; Change for the Better: The Story of Georgina Beyer As Told to Cathy Casey (2000, book); Charles Chauvel; Chelsea Manning; Chris Carter; Chrissy Witoko Memorial Trust; Christianity; Civil Union Act (2004); Club Exotic; Club Exotique; Crimes Amendment Bill (1974, Venn Young); Dale Williams; Dana DePaul; David Lange; Days Bay; Destiny Church; Downstage theatre; Foreshore and Seabed Act (2004); Fran Wilde; Gareth Watkins; Georgie Girl (2001); Georgina Beyer; Georgina Beyer Way (street); Georgina Beyer statue (Carterton); Grant Pittams; Grant Robertson; Greymouth; Hannah Playhouse; Hannah Tamaki; Harbour City Funeral Home; Hataitai; Heather Henare; Helen Clark; Helena Coolen; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); Homosexual Law Reform Society; Ian McKellen; Irawhiti Takatāpui; Jacquie Grant; John Banks; Jonathan Hunt; Karen Morris; Kevin Haunui; Kieran McAnulty; Kinky Boots (musical); Kola Gin; Kurds; La Cage aux Folles (film); Les Girls (Sydney); Lockwood Smith; Louisa Wall; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Marriage Amendment Act (2012); Mary Potter Hospice; Maryan Street; Member of Parliament; Michael Gibbs; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; Nanaia Mahuta; Nazi Germany; New Zealand Order of Merit (ONZM); Ngāti Mutunga; Ngāti Porou; Ngāti Raukawa; Nicole Duval; Norman Jones; Office of the Clerk/Parliamentary Service; Our Wāhine - 125 Extraordinary New Zealand Women (book); Oxford Union Society; Paul Henry; Polly Filla; Posie Parker; Poutokomanawa: The Carmen Rupe Generation (exhibition, 2019); Prostitution Reform Act (2003); Rainbow NZ Charitable Trust; Rainbow Room; Rainbow flag; Ramon Maniapoto; Rion McKenzie; Ron Mark; Royal Oak Hotel; Rule Foundation; Scott Kennedy; Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF); Sex Worker Pride Day; Sonja Davies; Staircase nightclub; Steve Chadwick; Sue Bradford; Sue Kedgley; Sydney; Tariana Turia; Te Ā ti Awa; The Adventures of Priscilla; Queen of the Desert (film); The Balcony/Le Balcon; The Court Theatre; The Warehouse; Tim Barnett; Tony Ryall; Tīwhanawhana; Tīwhanawhana Trust; United Nations; United States of America; Venn Young; Vivian Street; Wairarapa; Wellesley College; Wellington; activism; addiction; attempted suicide; church; civil unions; computers; crime; dignity; discrimination; email; family; hate; hate crime; heru; homosexual law reform; human rights; inclusion; iwi; kidney disease; kidney transplant; legacy; local government; mayor; musicals; night porter; playwright; police; puberty blockers; purple; rape; reconciliation; red umbrella; rejection; sex work; transgender; transphobia; waiata; whakawahine; whanau; youth DATE: 18 July 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Embassy Theatre, 10 Kent Terrace, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the memorial event for Georgina Beyer (Te Ā ti Awa, Ngāti Mutunga, Ngāti Raukawa, and Ngāti Porou), held at the Embassy Theatre in Wellington, on Tuesday 18 July 2023. Georgina passed away on 6 March 2023. Special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the memorial to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Tēnā tātou. Tēnā tātou i rangi i kaupapa a Georgina. Nō reira nō mai haramai. Welcome everybody. My name is Kevin Honian and I'm here on behalf of Tīwhanawhana Trust to help open this particular [00:00:30] occasion to celebrate Georgina. Nō reira nō mai haramai. Um, before we begin, I just wanted to say that we'll, we will open with a Kara here, um, and then Tana will perform a couple of, uh, items just to get the ball rolling and to welcome you here. Uh, and that will be the, our, our bit until the end of the, the program.[00:01:00] [00:01:30] Koia rā, e rongo, whakairi ake ki runga kia, tēnā, haumi [00:02:00] e hui e, kia ora tātahi. a tātou rangatira kua huri ana e. Ngā mihi mai ohā ki a koutou e. Tēnā rā koutou, tēnā rā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Aue, aue, e weire ki tēnei [00:02:30] te putu o te tapu. Kaura rā, ka takata a tai me tūraki atu a takata kiuna.[00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] [00:05:30] [00:06:00] [00:06:30] te aroha me te mahi tahi. Kua ike nga wangata. Titiro mai ki taku [00:07:00] pōhikere, Ki taku aloha. Kia mau. Kia mau te aroha me te mahi tahi. Kia reke nga wangata, Ki tiro mai ki taku ko, Reinei, Ki taku [00:07:30] aloha! Kia rete! Garete, mau, ki rato Whoo! Tēnā[00:08:00] koutou katoa Good evening, ladies and gentlemen A warm welcome to you all here at the Embassy And, indeed, to this, the Grand Theatre I'm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan, and it's an honour and a privilege to be your MC for this evening's proceedings. [00:08:30] I'd like to thank Kevin Hanui and Te Whanau Whanau Maori Performing Cultural Group for a very, very welcoming karakia and performance here this evening. Also, a very special welcome To all of our VIP guests down here in the front row. I want to thank you all for your [00:09:00] time and commitment as we celebrate a true icon of our rainbow community not only here in Aotearoa, New Zealand but on the global world stage. I first met George in the mid 1970s on his first arrival in Wellington. George was employed as a night porter at the Royal Oak Hotel in Dixon Street, where I was a waiter in the restaurant, and my flatmate, [00:09:30] Rion McKenzie, was the maitre d We all formed a very close working relationship. Little did we know that we would have an endearing friendship that was to last over 50 years. Georgie soon moved into our flat at number 20 Bullard Street. Life was never the same again. [00:10:00] Rion, after we finished work at the Royal Oak Hotel, was a male stripper and entertainer at the Club Exotic in Vivian Street. And after work, pubs used to close at 10pm in those days, we'd all head home, throw on the drag rags, and we'd hit the bright lights of Vivian Street. I know. Which inevitably always ended up at [00:10:30] the Club Exotic, followed by Carmen's International Coffee Lounge. Georgie was born, Georgina was here. Originally Georgina was employed at the Club Exotic as the Comedy Queen, a title that she absolutely loathed. But it didn't take her long. To make her mark and earn a place in the solo ranks. In 1979, Georgina and [00:11:00] her best friend, Dana DePaul, sought greener grass and made the move to Sydney, Australia. On an evening out on King's Cross, Georgina was pack raped by a group of four men. The Sydney dream was over. And in September the same year, Georgina returned to New Zealand. and the bright lights of Auckland. In October of 1984, [00:11:30] another New Zealand icon, the wonderful and talented Nicole de Valle, launched her all male review, Bloomers, at the Staircase Nightclub on 4th Street in Auckland, of which Georgina was a founding member of the troupe. It wasn't long before they secured a contract, a permanent contract, nightclub in High Street. Dazzling costumes, trick photography, [00:12:00] and, uh, stunning gorgeous queens ensured Alfie's was packed to the roof every weekend. Georgina remained with Bloomers for four and a half years. Then it was time for a change. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the life and times of Georgina Byrne. The world's first openly transgendered mayor and [00:12:30] member of parliament. A trailblazer. A woman who fought for the marginalized. A strong supporter. of prostitution law reform to decriminalize workers in the sex industry. And a strong supporter of same sex, uh, same sex civil unions and marriage equality. Join us as we take you on a journey. [00:13:00] of Georgina's life. We're going to see a short video now from the 1970s and the 1980s. It is now my pleasure to invite our first guest speaker to the lectern tonight to reflect on Georgina from that era. She's been a member of the Greymouth District Council for six years, a member of the Human [00:13:30] Rights Review Tribunal for nine years, a member of the New Zealand Order of Merit Until it was superseded by her next award as an officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit. Could you please welcome to the stage the tranny granny herself, the fabulous Jackie Grant.[00:14:00] Kia ora everybody. I must say it's just so wonderful to see so many people here to celebrate one of the icons. And we don't have that many icons in our community so, you know, good for you all to be here. It's an honour and a privilege to be speaking. When Malcolm rang me and asked me to speak, I thought, Oh God, where the bloody hell does one start? [00:14:30] How does one speak about a great orator and do her justice? That force of nature that was and still is Georgina Byer. When I sat down and started to write a speech. Because unlike Georgina, I, I can't speak for two hours without taking breath and no notes. Um, she could, but I can't. But it started me thinking, I'm on my 80th trip around the sun, and my friends [00:15:00] might say I'm just about approaching my second childhood. So how on earth will I want to say about Georgina? Then I had a light bulb moment. I went to the warehouse and bought some puberty blockers thanks to Brian Tamaki. So, thanks for that recommendation Brian. Um, I'm sure you made the warehouse a lot of profit. [00:15:30] I'm sure Georgina would want me to acknowledge a long line of rainbow pioneer politicians who preceded her and helped pave the way for hers and future generations to take up the mantle. Brave people who put their necks on the line for the betterment of our rainbow community. And they weren't all rainbow people either. It is fitting that we, and extremely [00:16:00] important, that we acknowledge those people while celebrating Georgina's own unique achievements. People like Ven Young in 1974, who was not successful with Law Reform. However, the train had left the station. And success, although some years away, was inevitable. The activists like the Homosexual Law Reform Society, who for many years debated the issue, and built up [00:16:30] support for a law change against the rhetoric of some of the vilest people that were on the political scene at that time. And people like Norman Jones spring to my mind. Vile, vile, bloody man. Fran Wild was successful in 1986. And not long after that, we had our wonderful Chris Carter. First openly gay out MP. [00:17:00] Charles Chevelle. And then of course, the king of New Zealand gay royalty, Tim Barnett. Followed by so many others. Then came New Zealand's first transgender MP, Georgina Beyer, who launched her career with a memorable speech about stallions. As I [00:17:30] said earlier, this is my 80th trip around the sun. So for my generation, this was all incredible stuff a lot of us thought we would never see. Thinking back to a time when if you gave your boyfriend a blowjob, you could be jailed for 8 years. A sentence that could be increased to 16 years if the said boyfriend screwed you. And that was not the worst of it. There were murders, bashings, police brutality, [00:18:00] and even worse for many of us was the rejection from families. Something our Georgina knew only too well. Nicole Duvel related to me recently how Georgina struggled with that rejection, how she reached out to her family in Wellington, the countless visits to her father's office in Wellington, and his refusal to even talk to her. She wasn't on her own there. The psychological effect [00:18:30] on so many was and still is something that is too hard to bear for our community. Think about the lost opportunities for our older trans community in education and employment. I knew a trans person back in the 1960s, admittedly in Australia, wasn't too different here. She got a job in a fish and chip shop and never told the employer she was trans. A customer sprung her to the [00:19:00] boss, who then rang the police. She was given three months in prison for doing, you know, wanting a job. You get three months in jail because she was in drag. I know for our rainbow community today, it is hard to imagine all this in today's world, but it is something I'm sure, or I know, Georgina understood. And I'm equally sure examples like these help shape her political path. And [00:19:30] you heard Mel talk about the rape in Australia and, and, you know, it's a pretty hard road to, to hoe sometimes. I'm also Georgina New. What we have gained during that hard battle can easily be taken away. She knew the value of sensible, rational debate from the inside. Carried far more weight than throwing juice at a nobody in a park in Auckland. [00:20:00] It is sad to see our Rainbow MPs falling by the wayside lately. Something in my mind that doesn't bode well. But anyway, I first heard about Georgina in the early 80s. When she burst on the scene with her acting roles, and I'm sure, like many other people, did. And participation in different shows, like Carmen's Balcony and Alfie's. And I thought then, this is a queen to watch. She is going [00:20:30] places. And how right I was. In 1989, Georgina's and my paths first crossed. When we both delved into local body politics. We both stood in by elections for our local councils, Georgina and Carterton, and myself and Greymouth. We both won. Next local body elections, we both stood for the mayoralty. [00:21:00] That bloody bitch won and I lost by a hundred votes. But I did get to stay on the council. Georgina had made history. The first transgender mayor, and in a rural, conservative community. It was around that time, I was in the North Island on my way to Napier. So I swung by Carterdon, called into the council building and asked if [00:21:30] Georgina was in. The receptionist said, no she's not in, but she just lives around the road, here's the address, pop in. You know, nothing like the Privacy Act back then. I found her house and Georgina gave me a warm welcome. I distinctly remember saying to her, I can't stay long as I'm on my way to Napier. Anyway, six hours, eight suitcases of newspaper cuttings, photos and videos later, I finally escaped. [00:22:00] I was in awe. She had every picture and every clipping and every video from day one of her various careers. She was an orator with an incredible memory. She could make a speech lasting an hour with no notes. could forget her maiden speech or her performance on Parliament steps during the Destiny Church's little demonstration fiasco, her[00:22:30] speech during the prostitution debate. And most of all, the respect she received from the YRAPA community who put her on the map politically. Our Georgina was human, she wasn't perfect, and she had quirks. More than a few, actually. Some that can never be mentioned outside of the sisterhood. One I can talk about, though, is told to me by Nicole Duval the other day.[00:23:00] Georgie had gone up to Auckland for a big gay out. By the end of the day, a little more, more than a little under the weather, she arrived at Nicole's house burbling on how she'd bought some brown biscuits from someone on the roadside, which she produced from her handbag. And being the wonderful hostess that she is, Nicole plated those biscuits, brownies, I mean biscuits, and put them with their cuppa. After their [00:23:30] cup of tea, Georgie announced she had to go out on the town. She couldn't sit still, she had ants in her pants. When she was leaving, she suddenly shot back to the lounge, she got to the door, shot back to the lounge, picked up the biscuit plate, dumped the whole lot in her handbag, and took off. They must have been some very special kind of biscuits. If anyone's got any, my address is Sock World, Hokateka. Anyway, [00:24:00] when Carmen passed away, I had the honour of delivering her eulogy. And at the end, I called for a standing ovation to see the diva on her way. Hopefully that started a tradition. So I think it's fitting we do the same here today for Georgie. So let's be upstanding and give her the ovation she rightly deserves.[00:24:30] [00:25:00] There Georgie, that's one of the biggest claps you've had for a long time. Thank you everybody. Thank you so much. Alba, second speaker this evening is a gentleman who worked closely with Georgina. On an up and coming musical based on her life story. [00:25:30] Could you please welcome actor and playwright, Mr. Brian Aitken. Kia ora tātou. Yes, it's been a sort of little secret for the last three years that I've been working on a musical based on Georgina's life. You may be wondering why senior Pakiha has been writing about a [00:26:00] transgender Māori, but we do have a lot in common in theatre. I'm an actor, director, writer, tutor, and was in Wellington for many years in radio drama in the early days of downstage theatre and then the Court Theatre in Christchurch was formed and I went home and um, helped set up the original company. I was approached to [00:26:30] write this musical a few years ago and created a scenario, a three page scenario because Georgina wanted to sanction it, of course. And so I laid out what I thought was her life from her book, from online interviews, and [00:27:00] so forth, and Created a storyline about a human being who had an incredible journey. We talk about a trailblazer. I think she was more than that.[00:27:30] So I created the scenario with places where songs might be, where some of the major scenes would happen, little bit of dialogue. She loved it. And I started writing. But it seemed rather dry. Her book, A Change for the Better, I thought was straight narrative. And so we started to [00:28:00] talk by telephone, and whenever I came to Christchurch for work, uh, to Wellington for work, I would take her out and we would sit and talk. I needed to understand the human, the person that had suffered. She was rejected by her family, by her iwi, by her adoptive family. And I wanted, I needed [00:28:30] to tell that story. Otherwise it would be a singing documentary. And that, I felt, wasn't good enough. So we talked a lot. I probed. She demurred. I probed more, because the songs needed to be [00:29:00] substantial. If you're writing about someone who was still alive, writing about someone's journey, writing about someone who changed things for people today, it needed to be real. And so, bit by bit, I was able to uncover the human. At the [00:29:30] moment, it's written for three people to play her. The twelve year old boy, the teenager into the twenties, and then the transgender and the public life. What did I want it to be? I wasn't sure. I thought, what don't I want it to be? Okay, this is not [00:30:00] Priscilla Queen of the Desert. This is not La Cage aux Folles. This is not Kinky Boots. It's an ensemble based piece. There's no chorus line. It's a modern piece of musical theater. So I have written the lyrics to 23 [00:30:30] songs composed by Roger Buchanan here, who is the composer. And all the scenes that link into and out of Georgina's story. The very weekend she died, we were in Ashburton of all places, laying down the demonstration tracks to four songs, looking for funding, minister.[00:31:00] So the, she got to read three versions, and when Malcolm and Scott were.. Unloading her large container. They came across to the original scripts. She kept everything.[00:31:30] I have two song lyrics I want to narrate to you today. Um, and one of them is the very moan moment which turned her life around when she was in Sydney and um, was gang raped.[00:32:00] How do you deal with this? How do you put it on the stage in a musical? So I have a split scene. There's lay girls on one half of the stage in a dark alley on the other side. And she's drinking there with the boys and smoking a bit of dope. And things are happy and they discover she's not what they thought she was.[00:32:30] Through choreography these two scenes merge and she's thrown into a, she's gang raped and put on the spit and thrown into a heap like a rag doll. The guys melt from the scene and Georgina's left lying on the ground lips bleeding at the bottom of the lay girl's tableau. A wreck in the middle of theatrical beauty. The scene [00:33:00] behind her fades. How did this happen from a chat and a drink? I'm making good money and working legit. No, I'm discarded like a piece of shit. I'm better than this, you would think. Will I always be on the margins of life? I work long hours, a legitimate job. Why doesn't anything ever go right? I'm better than this. You would think, [00:33:30] is it some form of punishment doled out by men when they discover, feel taken in, I try to be respectable but end up a sperm receptacle, oh why doesn't anything ever go right? Am I naive to think that it might? I'm doing my best, I don't ask for strife, will I always be on the margins of life? I only ever [00:34:00] sought acceptance, only ever wanted to be understood, accepted by my family. Not shunned, despised, rejected. Now, I've hit rock bottom, I'm totally at sea. The end of all I've known, who I'm trying to be. Keep seeking consolation from others like me. But no one has the answers to this confusion. Oh, please, when you've hit rock bottom, [00:34:30] is it time to give up? And I've hit rock bottom, I've bloody had enough. This won't become my lifestyle. I'll make a change for good, become a whole person, embrace my womanhood. I'll build my life anew. This life I've led is over. Back home I will start afresh. No more the restless rover. A real job, a real woman, real people in my life. I want my life to [00:35:00] count for something. People seem to be my thing. To hell with all this shameless bling. I'll show the world I'm not a thing. I'm a human and worth everything this damn world has to offer. I only ever sought compassion. Only wanted to be seen as me. Accepted. Loved. By my family.[00:35:30] We were talking about the lack of love in her life. We were sitting down here, and I asked her about that in an early draft, someone said to me, Brian, it's a musical, there's no love songs, and I said, [00:36:00] no, that's the tragedy. And when she was elected Mayor of Carterton, there was a street scene, and there's a photo of her with the bone comb in her hair, the Heru. Which was given to her by a young Maori carver. He stopped her in the street and gave it to her and said, I work with my [00:36:30] hands, you work with your heart. And she placed it in her hair. She looks up, she had a great rapport with her, Nenan. And she says, is this what you meant, Nenan, all those years ago? Be who you were meant to be. Well, I've [00:37:00] become the woman I finally knew I should be. But will there ever be that special someone to share it all with? And she sings. Is this the price of simply being me? Is this the cost of living comfortably? I beat the odds. They said I'd never win. But now I feel so right at home in my skin. I'm someone I [00:37:30] never thought I'd be. But I see couples walking hand in hand, gazing at the stars, toes in the sand. In silence they say nothing. Their eyes reflect their loving. And in each other's hearts they share their love. That's simply not for me. Will I ever know what love can feel like? Ever know what love can mean? I've always [00:38:00] felt the answers inside me More than a vessel I can be Someone, somewhere, please Find me Lovers there have been But only just a few Guys have come and gone But that's nothing new Never got much love Affection I can't show And when it comes my way I never seem to know Will I live [00:38:30] there never knowing? You. I talked to her about that. And she said, Brian, I have been hurt so much in my life. I got to the stage where I emotionally shut down so no one could ever hurt me again. What an indictment for a human being to live [00:39:00] their life by. Finally, her words. When she's running for the wire wrapper seat. Challenge your democracy, be brave, make things better. Be leaders of this world of ours, as friends, not safe and bitter. Stare your detractors in their eyes, [00:39:30] have the courage to stand up and say what you believe in. If you earn your keep and pay full taxes, then when you're on the line, it's what happens here and here. Humanity should define. Thank you. Thank you, Brian. I think it's that [00:40:00] time. What would a show be without a show number? The performances this evening have been selected. From Georgina's vast repertoire that she has performed herself. Could you please welcome to the stage, the hometown girl, Dungood. Now a resident in Melbourne, Australia. Could you please welcome, the fabulous, Polly Filler. Wow, [00:40:30] come on, fantastic, Polly Filler. Wow, I think we're gonna see, uh, Polly a little bit later on this evening in the show. But right [00:41:00] now it's time to talk about politics. In the early 1990s, seeking a breakaway, a breakaway from the hustle of Bright City Lights, Georgina moved to Carson and the wire wrapper where she became involved in a little bit of a local community members doing arts and performance. This eventually led to her being a counselor on the Carter District Council. for a number of years. Towards the end of [00:41:30] 1994, it was suggested that she ran for the mayoralty of Carterton. And in 1995, she was duly elected as the mayor. We were due to have his worship, the mayor, um, Ron Mark from Carterton. Unfortunately, due to family illness, Ron cannot make it. But we do have the Deputy Mayor of [00:42:00] Carterton. Could you please welcome to the stage, Dale Williams. Kia ora mai tatou. Koutou ko ingoa, Dale Williams. Uh, tumuaki tua rua o konehera Taratahi. My name's Dale Williams. I'm the Deputy Mayor of Carterton District Council and I [00:42:30] really want to.. Uh, send a really sincere apology from His Worship, the Mayor, the Honorable Ron Mark. He's devastated he couldn't be here tonight. He, uh, goes back a long way with Georgina and he shared a lot of stories and information, uh, about Georgie that he asked me to pass on some, those that I could, uh, to you here tonight. I, um, [00:43:00] I first got elected to a council back in 1995, last century, and, uh, you couldn't possibly have come into the local government family without knowing. All about Georgina Byer, and about who she was, and what she stood for, and the type of person that she was. And you could just tell that she was destined for remarkable things.[00:43:30] As a mayor of Carterton District from 95 to 2000, I just, interesting watching the, uh, the video clip, and Mr. Paul Henry, well, I think he was expecting to have romped into that seat at the time, but, uh, I can tell you, Georgie smashed him. And, uh, and it wasn't about the issues that he was talking about, and it was the same when Georgie was elected [00:44:00] to Carterton District. Yes, Carterton is a very conservative, Small rural community, but it's also progressive in a lot of ways. Progressive in that it values integrity, honesty, uh, hard work. And when Georgie got elected, she got elected because she was loved and respected. And capable. Extremely capable. And you know, she could, she could be in a room with [00:44:30] people whether they were, um, old or young, rich or poor. It didn't matter anything about that person other than what the issue was and that they were being cared for and respected by the leader of a community. Which is something that, um, plenty of leaders of communities could take a leaf out of Georgina's book. She certainly created a lot of firsts in Carterton District, as was said before. She was the [00:45:00] first female mayor of Carterton District. She was the first Maori mayor. of Carterton District. And she most certainly was the first transgender mayor of Carterton District. And some of the things that Ron asked me to, to pass on, the things that he admired particularly about Georgina was that she was extremely independent. She lived life on her own [00:45:30] merits and didn't carry favour from anybody or anything. She expected to be taken by the people for the person she was, not for, um, uh, you know, any, any favors or any credit for anything. She was quite conservative, Ron said, which I guess was really useful in a small conservative rural community. But she was an extremely hard worker, and Ron particularly admired her [00:46:00] resilience, her courage, her strength, and particularly her down to earth nature. And as has been said before, there's a lot of legacies around Carterton District that are reflected back to Georgina Byer. One particularly is the Daffodil Festival, which is an annual event. 10th of September, ladies and gentlemen, coming up. Thank you very much. She was a staunch advocate for the Daffodil Festival. Now it may seem a bit twee for some, [00:46:30] uh, but for a community like ours to have an annual event to celebrate the, the wonderfulness. of flowers and of beauty. Um, it really, it really reflected well on Georgina herself. Recently, in a new subdivision in our community, uh, Mayor Ron, uh, unveiled the Georgina by our way. You can see the sign on the stage.[00:47:00] Thank you, and it was a wonderful ceremony, and I really want to acknowledge all the friends and whanau of Georgina who came over the hill to Paradise and helped us, uh, helped us unveil the sign. And, you know, Councillors, we talked about it afterwards and we said, you know what, we anticipate we'll be replacing that sign quite regularly. In fact, we expect it. And Georgina herself, [00:47:30] in knowing that, would laugh. She'd think that was hilarious. Just, finally, uh, uh, you know, Georgina has created a wonderful legacy. Within Carterton district and when I talk to people on the street recently saying I was coming down here and the love and affection and appreciation for Georgina's contribution to our district [00:48:00] stands her in really good stead. The people are, uh, thrilled that she was part of our community and always will be. After the election in 2022. Georgina graced us with her presence at the inauguration ceremony in the swearing in. And my daughter's 12 years old, and she came along to the ceremony, she tapped me on the shoulder at one point and said, Dad, that lady over there, she's in the [00:48:30] book I'm reading. And my daughter got the book, Our Wahine. And was reading, she said, that lady's in the book. And I said, yes, that's Georgina Byer. And she said, do you think I could have a photo, a picture with her? And I said, well, go and ask her. And of course, Georgina, not just a photograph, but she got down and she talked to my daughter about a whole lot of things. And afterwards, my daughter, she was absolutely star truck, struck. She came up to her mum and I and said, I just want to be like that lady. [00:49:00] And I thought, what a wonderful, a wonderful accolade. Because as a father, nothing would make me more proud. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Oh, thank you Dale. Fantastic. Very sad that Ron could not be [00:49:30] here this evening. I do want to add though that, um, the Cardigan District Council are going to be making a statue. of Georgina Byer. It'll be, uh, going into War Memorial Square in the centre of Carterton. Watch out for a fundraiser. In 1999, Georgina was approached by Sonia Davies and [00:50:00] the Prime Minister at the time, Helen Clark, to stand for the Labour Party in the Wairarapa electorate. After much to ing and fro ing, Georgina finally accepted the offer, and the rest was history in the making. Georgina was fearless and stood her ground, taking on the best, or in this case, probably the worst. But she always left her mark. Let's go to a little bit of a enough is enough.[00:50:30] I'm happy to stare you in the eye. Why do you hate people like us? Be real Christians. I've known much more. and charity from other people than what I've seen from you deny[00:51:00] law abiding New Zealand citizens who happen to have a difference the same rights as yourselves? How dare you use the cloak of Christianity when you are imparting to your children prejudice, [00:51:30] discrimination toward people like me, gays and lesbians, and other people who live differently, but abide the law and pay their taxes. Why do you do this to us? Um, when the 8000 arrived at Parliament, uh, to protest against civil unions, um, it was a dark day, I feel, and the rest of the country seemed to feel so too. The [00:52:00] imagery they presented that day, um, was, uh, reminiscent of scenes from Nazi Germany, and general public were horrified, frankly. I would defend their right to protest, absolutely, um, but I stood on those steps for the two or three hours that they held their rally in front of parliaments holding the rainbow flag. Joined by other members of Parliament, Sue Bradford, Sue [00:52:30] Kedgley, um, Tim Barnett, Chris Carter, various others came out to support me as I stared them down from the steps of Parliament. Um, at one point, I just lost it. We had 150.. Approximately of our supporters, um, who were pro the Civil Union Bill, and they had been surrounded, uh, by the 8, 000 Destiny Church people, and they were abused, they were jostled, they were [00:53:00] shoved, and I could see all of this happening from the steps. Uh, when they finished their rally, I wanted to immediately run straight down to them. They were all gathered around the seventh statue in front of Parliament. Uh, but such was the abuse that I received that my minder, for want of a better term, Ramon Maniapoto, said, hey, hey, hey, come back behind the barriers, which I did. At that point, I was so angry, I suppose, I marched across the forecourt of Parliament yelling [00:53:30] out loudly, why do you hate us so much? What is this? What is this that you're teaching your children, this hatred towards us? It's not right. And words to that effect. I was yelling, which I seemed like a screaming banshee, because they had a sound system the Rolling Stones would have been proud of. So I was trying to shout over that so that they might hear me. That ended up on the news that night, and many of our rainbow people[00:54:00] around the country Went to hallelujah, our voices there to stare down this great adversity we were facing from these people. One of the proudest moments in my parliamentary life, I have to say, sorry for getting a bit emotional about it, but it was significant. And of course, uh, civil unions came to pass and then [00:54:30] was followed. What, less than ten years later, by Louisa Wall's presentation of marriage equality to the country. And considering the venal debate that happened over civil unions throughout the country, marriage equality managed to slip through, uh, pretty well supported from within the parliament, and more importantly, uh, from a majority of New Zealanders. You see, with patience and perseverance, [00:55:00] The country, by and large, will come on board because they can see all we want is equality. We are of no harm to anyone else. We just want to enrich our own lives with equality. And it has been for the better of New Zealand that we have been able to make positive contributions to our country and to live lives that are far more liberated than when I was young.[00:55:30] Wow. Sure is after a mark. Our next speaker this evening is a gentleman who needs no introduction at all. Could you please welcome to the stage, the Minister of Finance, Mr Grant Robinson.[00:56:00] Kia ora, Tēnā koe Mel. Can we just give a big round of applause for Mel. What a fantastic job he's doing. My first encounter with Georgina was not at Parliament. It was in New York in the early 2000s. I'd like to claim we were an incredible drag act, uh, taking, uh, New York by storm, but it's not true. I was a junior diplomat [00:56:30] representing New Zealand at the United Nations. Despite this day job, I had been a bit involved in the Labour Party at home, and I knew of Georgie. Who didn't know of Georgie. The story has been told a million times, including a little tonight. The journey from the streets and the clubs of Wellington to the TV screens and then to sleepy old Carpenton. And to being the stallion who became the gelding who became a mayor as Georgie delighted in telling everybody. And when she got to Parliament had come full [00:57:00] circle to be a member. It was still one of the greatest lines. Up in New York, we got wind that Georgina was coming through town as the fairly new MP for Wairarapa, and as we knew, the first transgender member of parliament in the world. I remember explaining to an American colleague that it was like a transgender person becoming the senator for Nebraska. They said to me that that would never happen, [00:57:30] and I said, you've never met Georgina. I don't remember a lot about that visit 20 or so years ago. I do remember Georgie being a little bit awestruck by her surroundings. But in every meeting, in every engagement we had, she was on. Calm, resolute, clear. It wasn't anything other than for me to see that as enormously brave. But she didn't actually [00:58:00] like that label at the time. She wanted to be judged and valued for the work that she did. But I know the massive effort that went into ignoring the stares and the derogatory remarks and to rising above and to being authentic. It was impressive. A star was born, although that had happened many years before. Back in New Zealand, Georgie got into the work of being an MP, and there are others here tonight who were MPs with her who can give you a much [00:58:30] better idea of how she went about that work. But I was a staff member in Parliament by that stage, and there were a couple of moments for me that I want to share with you. The first of those is the day that Brian Tamaki and his mob came to town for the Enough is Enough rally to protest against the satanic scourge of civil union. Georgina, as you saw, her blood boiled. This was outright bigotry. It is actually [00:59:00] hard to describe to those who weren't there exactly what that day felt like. Thousands of mostly men, largely dressed identically in black t shirts and black trousers, marching down Lampton Quay, their fists angrily punching the air, shouting that enough is enough. It wasn't exactly clear what was enough, but it was clear who the target of the march was, as Georgie said. Every one of us in the rainbow community. It was incredibly scary and confronting, [00:59:30] and as you saw and heard, Georgie was enraged. She was enraged, she told me, partly at the large number of Māori in the crowd and those purporting to be Christians. There was a smallish counter protest, and as well as the group she described standing on the steps of Parliament. I was with her and we were clutching the rainbow flag. We were frightened and upset. Georgie was fucked off. After a period of time, as [01:00:00] you heard, she said, I'm going down there and I'm going to look them in the eye. And she just set off, at pace, towards the front of the band crowd. I didn't realise, Ramon, you were the minder. Terrible job at that point. We didn't know what to do. I remember thinking she might get killed. I really mean that. We hurtled off after her, no doubt in a very butch manner, clutching our flag. I was close enough to hear Georgie berate the crowd asking, as you heard, how they could call themselves Christians [01:00:30] with their acts and words of bigotry and hatred. She walked along the front of the line and did exactly what she said she would do. She looked them each in the eye. It was thrilling, frightening, and courageous all at once, and it made a difference. The images that appeared on TV that night of Georgina, as she said, were an enormous boost to the campaign for civil union. The Tarmacky process had the effect of turning out votes in our favour. Tim Barnett gave those [01:01:00] of us in the campaign jobs to lobby MPs. I had two on my list, one of who was meant to be here tonight, who turned their votes. Based on what they saw that day. I've always said Brian Tamaki gave us civil unions. I also say, in all seriousness, that Georgie did too. Her bravery, her courage, her sense of right and wrong, and fairness and justice.[01:01:30] The second moment I want to talk about is prostitution reform. And there are others who will be able to tell you much more about this from the front line. But as someone who worked alongside.. Georgie and this campaign. Georgie was responsible for the most electric moment I have experienced in Parliament, either as a staff member or in the 15 years I have been an MP. I make a joke when I'm asked by school kids what I wanted to be when I [01:02:00] was their age. I say that I wanted to be an actor or a lawyer, and now I get to be both. The business of being an MP, advocating for your constituents, debating policy, working on legislation, that was bread and butter for Georgina. And she was good at it. For someone who left school at 16, I watched her debate details and issues with skill and depth. She definitely got bored sometimes, no doubt. But she held her own. In the performance side of [01:02:30] politics, I got the sense that she fought herself sometimes. She stated in later years that the debating side of politics ground her down. And I can understand that, but by God she was good at it. The zenith of which was the Prostitution Law Reform Bill. Georgina has talked about her ambivalence about the legislation in a wonderful interview she did with Gareth Watkins. And she did waver in her support at various stages. But by the time of the final reading, she was well and [01:03:00] truly on board. The vote on prostitution law reform was always going to be tight. We didn't know where a number of MPs were going to land. And Georgie was asked by Tim, if I recall, to speak in a five minute call in the final reading of the bill. There was no time for preparation. I vividly remember being in the debating chamber watching along. Georgie's speech was a virtuoso moment. It was pure instinct and heart. It was [01:03:30] angry and it was beautiful. It was born of painful personal experience and deep love for those she knew from the streets and bars. It was the best performance I have ever seen in Parliament. And it changed the course of history. Along with a couple of other speeches that night and Tim's extraordinary hard work, the bill passed by one [01:04:00] vote with one abstention. It would not be right to talk, to finish talking about Georgina's time in Parliament. without mentioning the foreshore and seabed debate. There is not time to go into all of the details, but it was no doubt a turning point for her in her time in politics. It caused her to reflect on her own whakapapa and again to consider what was right and wrong. And, on reflection, her deep sense of that was almost certainly right, [01:04:30] even if it was to mention tonight, I thought long and hard about whether to raise. But I think it says something important about Georgie. In 2013, I was running to be the leader of the Labour Party. For some reason or another, Georgie was asked to comment on the contest. And she said something to the effect of, New Zealand's not ready for a gay Prime Minister. Headlines followed, and I was furious. [01:05:00] I rang her up, and I asked her what on earth was going on. She was sorry that I was upset. But she said, I'm not wrong, am I? And actually, at the time, she was probably telling the uncomfortable and unfortunate truth. Honest, not always diplomatic or strategic, straight from the heart, our Georgina. Now,[01:05:30] now there is a postscript to that story. In recent years, Georgina would come into Parliament for a kapa on a fairly regular basis. Things were tough for her, we all knew that. And I made sure to always say hello and chat for as long as I could. And one day, out of nowhere, as I got up to leave, she grabbed me by the arm, and she said, I'm sorry I said that, about New Zealand not being ready for a gay PM. And there were tears in her eyes, [01:06:00] and tears in mine. And I said, you're probably right. And she said, of course I was, darling. Thank you, Georgie, for being direct. Honest and authentic. For your service to your community. For being a history maker. For changing my world and the rest of the rainbow communities. For being a brave, instinctive politician. For being your authentic, sometimes [01:06:30] frustrating and infuriating self. And for being funny, bold and fearless. I am proud to have known you. Moi mai, moi mai, moi mai rā. May you rest in peace. Wow. Thank you Grant. Fantastic. [01:07:00] Unfortunately, uh, former Member of Parliament Chris Carter cannot join us this evening and sends his apologies as he is currently in England. Chris kindly wrote a message for tonight's memorial service and his former Parliamentary Advisor Michael Gibbs has agreed to read it on his behalf. Could you please welcome Michael Gibbs. Pou mare kia koutou. [01:07:30] Ko Michael Gibbs tōku angawa. On a personal note, I knew Georgina Byer very well from the first time she ran for Parliament in 1999. And as a Rainbow Labour activist and as an MP when I worked in Minister's offices during the Clark Government. And she was a very active local MP. It's an honour for me to share Chris's tribute this evening. This is what Chris had to say, or has to say. I'm sorry that I can't be here this evening to pay tribute to my old friend and colleague, Georgina Beyer. I would [01:08:00] like to thank all of you who've organised this event, and share some memories of my remarkable friend and colleague. I first met Georgina when she was Mayor of Carterton, and was considering running as the Labour Party candidate for the National Health Seat. We hit it off instantly. I was entranced with her from that very first meeting at the 1998 Labour Party conference. She was outrageous, irreverent, quite naughty, and [01:08:30] larger than life. No one could spin a yarn like Georgina, and these stories were always entertaining and often very salacious. We formed a firm friendship that lasted through all the ups and downs of our respective political and personal lives. I've always suspected that some in the Labour caucus and in the media didn't grasp the importance and uniqueness of Georgina. Not only was she the world's first transgender person ever elected as a mayor, and in Carterton of all places, [01:09:00] but she was open over her former life as a sex worker and reformed addict. Not exactly the best CV for an aspiring and ultimately victorious candidate for the New Zealand Parliament. In 1999, Wairarapa was a national health seat and had a very large rural component. Not exactly positive, uh, not exactly promising Labour territory. TVNZ did a profile of the electorate just before the election. The broadcaster Paul Henry, then young, and with model good looks, Chris didn't [01:09:30] always have the best taste, contested the seat for National. Watching the program with my partner Peter, one segment stood out. An older dairy farmer profiled, was profiled working in his milking shed, and he was asked who he was going to vote for. His response was telling. I'm voting for Georgina Byer, she's a great bloke. Laughter Applause Paul Henry came on immediately after that segment and true to form indulged in a bit of [01:10:00] transphobic uh, rhetoric. I was born a male and I'm still a male. I'm still proud to be male. It was mean and awkward. Peter turned to me and said, Paul Henry's just blown his chances. And he was right. Georgina won the seat by 3, 033 votes. And three years later, increased her majority to 6, 372. I have so many memories of Georgina tucked away in my head. Here [01:10:30] are just a few that may give a glimpse of Georgina's courage, tenacity, and her global impact as an MP. First, one of my warmest memories of my dear friend. In 2002, I was elevated to the cabinet. One of my portfolios was ethnic affairs. I'd been in the job for just a few days. It was a Friday evening and I was about to head over to the North Shore of Auckland to attend my very first ethnic function as a new minister. The ministerial car had arrived and then suddenly a taxi turned up in our small T82 cul de [01:11:00] sac and Georgina emerged. In typical Georgina style, she'd forgotten to tell me she was coming to stay and she'd simply arrived. I told her I was heading out to an ethnic event with the Kurdish community, but she could make herself at home until I got back. She responded that she'd never met a Kurd and asked if she could accompany me. How could I say no? The bemused ministerial driver delivered us to the venue, and a flurry of Kurdish men descended. Georgina towered above them, bejewelled and glittering. I introduced her [01:11:30] as the Labour MP for the Wairarapa, but this was somehow meaningless to our hosts, or they were simply overwhelmed by her. She was introduced as Mrs. Carter. And all the.. All night, the men kept telling me how beautiful my wife was. Georgina dined down on it for months. Georgina's success in life had a powerful message for all people, especially youth. When I served as New [01:12:00] Zealand's Minister of Education, I sometimes used Georgina's life experience as an example for senior students. I didn't do that to focus on trans issues, but rather I emphasised the powerful messaging Georgina's life had for students about those facing barriers in life and how to overcome them. Georgina overcame discrimination and obstacles all her life. She highlighted how it's possible for a young person struggling with a diverse sexuality rejected by her family, caught up in prostitution [01:12:30] and addiction, raped. But still able to overcome all that and become a globally recognised politician. That's a pretty powerful and relevant message for anyone, and a strong message of hope for youngsters everywhere. Georgina had guts. When the civil, when the Destiny Church organised a huge march on Parliament, as we've heard about this evening, uh, she strode out of the building and personally confronted Brian Tamaki and some of his rabid henchmen. It was a fiery scene. She [01:13:00] challenged, sometimes not very politely, some Labour caucus members who were hostile to both the civil union prostitution reform legislation. No one was ever in doubt about Georgina's views on any issues. Georgina could be very naughty. I don't think the Parliament had ever had quite as colourful a character as her when she entered Parliament in 1999. Her presence was not universally welcomed. [01:13:30] Soon after she was elected she confronted MP Brian Neeson. A Religious Fundamentalist National MP, then representing the seat of Hellensville. Neeson, who once told me he'd left the Catholic Church because it was too liberal, seemed appalled by Georgina. He gave her hostile stares and bad vibes whenever their paths crossed. In a corridor in Parliament one day, Georgina stopped and called out to him, Brian, pull that arse, girl. Neeson blanched.[01:14:00] fled the scene and avoided her from then on. On another occasion, Georgina, stimulated by the high pitched voice and rather camp gestures of a certain ex MP from the Bay of Plenty, shrieked, Get you, girl! when the member was asking a question in the chamber. Speaker Jonathan Hunt, then presiding over question time, was simply at loss for words. Interestingly, no National MP at the time rose to take a point of order in [01:14:30] defence of their bay of plenty colleague. Lockwood Smith was also a frequent target of Georgina's humour in the House. Georgina became an international identity. The fifth Labour government led by Helen Clark was a very progressive and legislatively active government. Many major policy initiatives were elected, were enacted from social and human rights issues such as civil unions, prostitution reform, to major economic packages like the New Zealand Superannuation [01:15:00] Fund, KiwiBank, KiwiSaver and so on. Georgina's presence in the government was important to Helen Clark. Helen, like many of us in the Labour caucus, felt that Georgina's presence in our parliament sent a powerful message about inclusiveness. To the whole country and society. To show this to the world was something Georgina came to love. In 2003, Georgina was sent to London to take part in the Commonwealth [01:15:30] Studies Programme. This is an event organised by the British Parliament and hosts MPs from a range of Commonwealth countries. On day one of the programme, each of the Commonwealth participants is required to do a personal introduction. Well, those of us who knew Georgina well knew she knew nothing better, loved nothing better than being on stage and telling her own story. On that day, MPs from places such as Kenya, Jamaica, Malaysia, Uganda and Ghana heard about her family's rejection of her based on [01:16:00] her sexuality and gender identity. Her period as a sex worker and as an addict. I'm confident they were totally overwhelmed. I'm not suggesting that she changed many attitudes that day. But she did show that it's possible for a transgender person to become a member of a national parliament. Something most of them could never have imagined before they'd heard Georgina's presentation. For years afterwards, MPs from Commonwealth countries would approach me when I was representing New Zealand as a government minister and ask me about Georgina.[01:16:30] I can truthfully say that globally, the two most well known New Zealand politicians between 1999 and 2008 were undoubtedly Helen Clark and Georgina Byer. That's no mean achievement for a kid from Haitaitai thrown out of home for cross dressing as a young teen who turned to prostitution to survive. My friend, you were a remarkable person and I miss you already. Rest in peace, Chris[01:17:00] Carter. Ladies and gentlemen, Michael Gibb. Thank you, Michael. In 2003, the Prostitution Law Reform Bill was before Parliament to discriminate the rights of those working in the sex industry. Having been in the industry herself, it was the passion of Georgina's to support the bill, and she was very instrumental in getting the numbers needed to get the bill.[01:17:30] across the line, which it duly did. I would like to now invite to the stage Dame Catherine Healy from the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective to share her memories of that crucial time. Kia ora. Kia [01:18:00] ora kato katoa. Gosh, these are such hard acts to follow and it's like everything's Georgina's whanau. And I want to acknowledge the rainbow whanau and the sex worker whanau. So many whanau here tonight. Fantastic. And of special significance to [01:18:30] me, I met some of Georgina's blood whanau tonight who are here. And I want to acknowledge you because.. We have a relationship, um, my sister in law is related, and I found this out tonight. So, it seems like, it seems like reconciliation, which is something I think that Georgina is probably planting from somewhere.[01:19:00] Georgina loathed sex work. She said she hated every minute of it. She worked in an era when sex work wasn't regarded as such, and sex workers were heavily judged, arrested, and generally mistreated, without real recourse for justice. She was also unable to keep her sex work hidden, [01:19:30] which many sex workers understandably do to avoid judgment. Discrimination and stigma, not Georgina. She owned it and stared down the stigma associated with it. Inspiring. So I admired her ability to come on board the decriminalization movement. Often when you dislike something you want to see it got rid of. She could have gone in the opposite direction. [01:20:00] And become a fundamentalist, abolitionist, they exist. Fortunately for us, she chose otherwise, but it wasn't all plain sailing. And we've heard a little bit about that. Around the time when the decriminalization of prostitution was being debated in parliament. There was a lot of lobbying. In particular, there was a lot of concern. And it [01:20:30] wasn't just an issue for New Zealand, for Aotearoa. It concerned radical feminists. It concerned fundamentalist Christians. It concerned a lot of people who aren't on the side of sex workers. So, what happened was an American academic turned up and lobbied Georgina. And as Georgina later reflected, she said, I didn't know all that highfalutin radical [01:21:00] feminist politics theories. I have lived experience, or words to that effect. So we heard.. a quiet rumor that Georgina was going to vote against the bill and we were lucky it was just us and those in the inner circles who heard the rumor. It didn't leak out to the media, but it was a worrying time. So we had to find some old mates of hers to counter [01:21:30] this other academic who'd come in from the America. So we found. A Canadian who went and talked to Georgina and turned her back to support the Prostitution Reform Act. Witness the magic of that powerful speech in Parliament on the eve when the bill was voted in. Where she spoke so passionately and Grant mentioned how bone chilling that moment was. [01:22:00] I'm sure many of you have seen it replayed on television. But we also had a lot of downtime together. We had a lot of lovely moments and I just want to say when Georgina recently was invited to go and speak to the Oxford Union, we talked quietly about that. David Lange, as you may recall, you're all too young I think, um, but you may recall David Lange was invited to speak in a debate and [01:22:30] Um, I think about 25 years later, I was invited, and then somebody else, and then Georgina. And she said, I said, Georgina, what are you going to do? Are you going to debate or, you know, speak? What are you going, because they give you a choice. You can choose a debate or you can choose to speak. And she said, my life is not up for debate. On the [01:23:00] International Day to Celebrate Sex Worker Pride, those of us from NZPC decided it would be the perfect occasion to launch the day. It was a special day, a new international day for sex workers. By honouring Georgina and taking her out to lunch, we chose a restaurant across the harbour and as we chugged on the ferry, the East West Ferry, into the wharf at Days Bay, Georgina could see her old school, the rather [01:23:30] posh Wellesley College. She told a story with relish about catching up with old classmates at a school reunion. It had, in her time, been a boys school. Some of the content, like the sea, was a little blue. I can hear her laughter. Once again, there was a sense she was never afraid to call it out. And I'm just going to [01:24:00] reflect on a couple of comments that came to today from colleagues at NZ PC when she Fraser from NZ PC drove her home that night. She reflected that she lived too close for my liking. I could have driven her to Auckland and back. She was so warm and engaging. Fierce and formidable. Sherita continues un marveled at her incredible political now. [01:24:30] Her wisdom and implicit understanding of human nature. No surprise, she was a sex worker. Georgina was generous with her time and rich with her spirit. And Chanel, who also works, Chanel Hardy, who also works and performs with Te Whanau Whanau and works with NZPC, shares her reflections on Georgina. She says, she had a fire that burned [01:25:00] brighter than any other, and a presence that was impossible to ignore. Chanel remembers Georgie's quote from the Po Tukumanua exhibition. At this time, Georgina said, I stand on the shoulders of those who went before me. Now people stand on the shoulders. of people like me. It's not just our sex worker community in Aotearoa that will remember [01:25:30] her, but many other communities of sex workers around the world who were inspired by her life. We were sometimes asked to facilitate And invitations from these groups to her, we sort of became de facto secretaries for Georgia. And we'd weigh up the invitations. And, um, anyway. Her powerful endorsements of our rights based movement will resonate for years to come, in communities far and wide. [01:26:00] And tonight, I'm here with my NZPC whanau, whom I asked to join me in twirling a red umbrella, the symbol of International Sex Worker Rights, in honor of Georgie.[01:26:30] Can I just say, we were Te Whanau Whanau friends aren't here, so I'm just going to start it, and everyone can join Te Aroha. Te Aroha[01:27:00] [01:27:30] Uh, thank you dime Catherine. As mentioned earlier, Georgina had a vast repertoire of music she loved to perform. Here tonight, to perform one of those numbers, is a drag superstar. An icon. An international performer. Could you please welcome from Auckland, [01:28:00] The one, and the only, Miss Kola Jinn. Ladies and gentlemen, the sensational Kola Jinn! Thank you so much, Kola. The Oxford Union has a [01:28:30] tradition of hosting some of the world's most prominent individuals across politics, academia, and popular culture. Ranging from Albert Einstein, Michael Jackson, Sir Winston Churchill, Ronald Reagan and Queen Elizabeth the second. In 2018, Georgina Byer joined the ranks of her famous predecessors with an invitation to speak at the Oxford Union. Along with her personal assistant [01:29:00] Julian Cook, Georgina set off to London on another groundbreaking moment in her life. While in London, Georgina had the pleasure of being hosted by Sir Ian McKellen at his residence. We now have a short clip from the wizard Gandalf himself, Sir Ian McKellen. Hello, it's Ian McKellen. I wish I were with you, uh, but I'm not. I'm in London at home, [01:29:30] uh, where Georgina visited me, uh, not that long ago. I just wanted to let you know, in case you didn't, that beyond the shores of New Zealand, Georgina was your representative. Of, All that is very best about New Zealand politics and, and social attitudes. And as your ambassador, uh, she was [01:30:00] close to all our hearts. Simple as that, really. I was very lucky to know her a little, uh, and, uh, smile whenever her name is mentioned. Have a great day. Bye bye. Thank you, Serene. In 2013, Georgina will receive some debilitating news. [01:30:30] She is diagnosed with a kidney disease. Her only option to extend her life was a kidney transplant. A close friend and ally of Georgie's put his hands up and donated one of his kidneys to Georgina. This selfless act was to extend Georgina's life by several more years. Could you please welcome to the podium, the man that made all this possible, Mr. Grant Pidhams.[01:31:00] Thank you for that. Um, and Mel, thanks for that introduction. Um, I guess I played a bit part in Georgie's amazing life. [01:31:30] Um, but certainly near the end, that was quite an important part. You know, and I guess the cliche is that when Georgie moved on, part of me did as well. Georgie, are you still looking after that? She had better be. But okay, why do you do that? Why, you know, give someone, in effect, the gift of life? And it's because Georgie was a friend. And I did not [01:32:00] like seeing a friend die in front of me. And she was. Kidney disease is an awful thing. It slowly creeps up on you, you become more debilitated, more tired, um, and the way that things are extended is, you know, the medical world intrudes more upon your world. So, I was looking at Georgie dying, this was [01:32:30] some, a few years ago, and I thought if no one else will, I will. So, you know, being a public servant, we had coffee at the archives cafe, and I said to Georgie, Look, I've got two kidneys and you need one. Do you want it? There was quite a bit of tears, um, and then she and I, [01:33:00] began this amazing journey. And giving someone a kidney is actually not that straightforward. It takes ages. And I don't mean the bit where they cut it out of you with a knife. I mean, it's the bit that comes up to it. Georgie and I went through this journey and I learned an awful lot about myself and I learned a lot about kidney disease, much of which I didn't want to. There were, there were some conversations that I [01:33:30] was almost hiding under the table, it was so awful. Anyway, I don't like seeing my friends die in front of me, but I also felt, this might sound a bit, you know, whatever, but I also felt Georgie had more to give us. And we had more to learn. So, that all ended up with, uh, two attempts, uh, and in the end, [01:34:00] um, you know, Georgie ended up with one of my kidneys. And for, for those that don't know about this stuff, and most people wouldn't, it's in effect an instant cure. You know, so you go from being sick to being well, just like that. Um, and.. Georgie struggled with that for a bit, and not so much from the post surgery. She struggled with the, the moving from being, you know, increasingly ill, almost invalid, to [01:34:30] being not. Um, and I tried to, you know, because of our relationship, I did quite a bit of teasing and come on, you know, all of that sort of stuff. I, I remember in Auckland Hospital. While, while she hated being in hospital and she's a really bad patient, she was awful. You know, the grand dame came out in a big way, but she also took on board everything she was [01:35:00] told. And I remember I was sitting on the end of her bed at the end of the ward in Auckland hospital and she was raging on because she had just read all of the side effects of her immunosuppressant regime. Um, and one of, one of it said that, um, she might grow hair. And she was raging on about how she had fought growing hair all her life and she was not going to do this now. And I just said to her, [01:35:30] Georgie, career opportunity, you could grow a beard, join the circus, be the bearded lady. The fact she was still quite sick and at the other end of the beard probably means I'm standing in front of you talking now. But we went through a lot. But kidney disease, as I said, is an awful thing and while that donation bought her more time and it bought her time for, to [01:36:00] help everyone some more, in the end it came and got her. And at the end, Georgie's strength and her courage came out. It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to say.. This is it. She knew that when her second kidney failed and there was these, there was nothing from [01:36:30] here. She knew this was the end. She could have gone on to a renal dialysis and she just was not going to do that. So she took that decision. Now is the time. And I admire her bravery. So Georgie gave us a lot. She gave passion, she gave strength, she gave us things, we saw pride, we saw courage, and we saw sharing from her. [01:37:00] And she has left us with a great treasure. And that treasure is her legacy. We must never forget her legacy of what she did for all of us in this room. What she did for our country. And what has she done for people. So, we have lost an important New Zealander, uh, [01:37:30] and it is up to us to keep that legacy alive. She's not, but she is in us all. And it's up to us to keep that alive, to have the courage to do the things we want to do, have pride in ourselves, know our strengths and help others. So, let us go on in that legacy, we know what to do, she has shown us the [01:38:00] way. Thank you Grant. The Rainbow Room, Georgina sets the bar on equality. Our next memorable moment is the relaunch of the Rainbow Room at Parliament. Hello, I'm Georgina Beyer. [01:38:30] Um. I was elected to Parliament in 1999 after having served two terms as Mayor of Carterton in the Wairarapa. I was the world's first out transsexual to have been elected to a Parliament and indeed to have been elected as a Mayor, uh, for that matter. My arrival in Parliament was, um, taken with some surprise, I guess. My electorate was a rural, conservative seat, Wairarapa, one of the [01:39:00] largest general seats in the country at the time. And so while it was remarkable, uh, that a transsexual had been able to be, um, elected as a constituency MP, I think the story really lies behind those. who supported me getting into Parliament, and that is the people of Wairarapa. I was very proud of that. I had no idea at the time that I was considered to be the world's first out transsexual. I added the out bit myself at a United Nations Human Rights [01:39:30] Conference in Montreal a while later, because I decided that I needed to pay homage to those who may have been transgender. But could never have been out. And if they had served perhaps in parliaments or whatever before. So that was just my little acknowledgement I think to those who may not have been able to be as out as I was able to be. Outside of these boundaries, outside of this coastline, there isn't a [01:40:00] person I know who is not trans or, uh, intersex. Who doesn't look to Georgina Byer as the iconic Gandhi of the movement. I know that's how she sees herself, but being the first in the world, again is a remarkable achievement. And her courage, her tenacity, her authenticity transforms hearts and minds. I don't wanna be [01:40:30] meow dramatic, but we know that queer kids around the world in places that are less affirming than in New Zealand. Struggle every day with anxiety, with depression, with suicidal thoughts, but we know that when they see somebody in legitimate positions of power around them, they are reassured. They feel validated. They feel worthy. They feel they can aspire to something. In the future, so [01:41:00] every queer out elected politician in the newspaper on television is life affirming and to many millions of kids that is life changing and in many cases that is life saving because you see yourself as an authentic, real, legitimate person, member of humanity and you see a pathway out of the difficulty. It is incredibly fitting [01:41:30] that this new and improved Rainbow Room will be dedicated near the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising in New York City. Because one of the many, many legacies of Stonewall is the power of an individual act to reverberate around the world. And at a time when LGBTQ people find themselves under attack in far too many corners of this globe, including in my home country of the United States. The actions and the [01:42:00] work here in the New Zealand Parliament have never been more important. Because for the last several decades, you all have been at the forefront of the movement for the rights and dignity of LGBTQ people around the world. From marriage equality to the globally historic election of Georgina Beyer, you all have not just made change for people here in New Zealand. You have set the bar and challenged the world to live up to our highest ideals and to be our best selves. And so, my hope [01:42:30] as we dedicate this rainbow room, Is that the work and the words and the actions that fill it in the years to come will be work and actions that continue to challenge not just people in New Zealand to be better, but continue to challenge advocates and activists and politicians and people around the globe to move equality and justice forward for LGBTQ people. To continue to set that bar higher and higher, to [01:43:00] continue to challenge the world, to continue to demonstrate through the power of your example, that equality must always win. And someday, years from now, when as we say in the United States, our understanding of we the people finally includes all of us, a young LGBTQ kid will grow up here in Wellington or in Russia. Or in South America, or in New York City. And never have to know what these moments of progress felt like to [01:43:30] all of us. Because they will never know anything different. And that will be because of advocates and activists and out politicians who dreamed of a different world. It will be because of everyday people who marched and fought for a better tomorrow. It will be because of allies who stood up or spoke out. It will be because of all of you. Thank you all.[01:44:00] Our next two speakers have flown from Darwin especially to attend tonight's memorial service for Georgina. To reflect on their friendship and their time in parliament with Georgina, please welcome Tim Barnett and Ramon Manamopoto. Kia ora tatou, [01:44:30] ko Tim aho. I'm going to just change the agenda very slightly. Um, I've got the third person here, Steve Chadwick, who was one of the Labour members of Parliament who was absolutely on side with Georgina. And she is going to read a message from Helen Clark, who's just been travelling around the world. Also, I just want to recognise Jill Pettis and Mariam Street, who are here tonight, who are part of the team supporting Georgina. [01:45:00] So, first to nui ki a koutou. And it is humbling to be asked to give Helen Clark's tribute to Georgina tonight. Georgina was my house sitting mate. So there's lots of stories to tell you about Georgie, as I knew her, and myself. And we did walk together. But from Helen Clark. In 1995, [01:45:30] Georgina's election as Mayor of Carterton attracted a lot of attention throughout New Zealand. Georgina was a powerful speaker, passionate about her beliefs in transgender. She commanded attention. She was re elected in 1998 with a 90% majority of the vote. Impressed by Georgina, the New Zealand Labour Party asked her to stand in the Wairarapa electorate at the 1999 general election. [01:46:00] Georgina's campaign was successful and the rest you've heard about tonight is history. But she did attract attention worldwide as the world's first openly transgender member of parliament. Georgina was in parliament for just over seven years of the nine years of our government. MPs. Her style was to be a conscience for who she was and the people she [01:46:30] represented. She had strong views, a sharp tongue, and rich, complex life experience from which she could draw stories and views. She was a strong advocate for equity and for justice for all. We'll remember Georgina for her dedication to working with and for the most marginalized and for equity and justice. We will remember [01:47:00] Georgina for her wicked sense of humor. And we will remember Georgina for her own personal courage in breaking through the boundaries of stigma and prejudice. to become an acclaimed public figure. At the time tonight of Matariki, may Georgina now rest in peace. From Helen Clark, the Right Honourable Helen Clark, the former Prime[01:47:30] Minister. APPLAUSE Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. That's it, for most of us. However, just occasionally, Somebody does it differently. They leave something of meaning behind, not a dry old bone or a name on a plaque, but instead, powerful [01:48:00] memories. Stories that improve with the telling. Achievements which survive the person's passing. They left some part of the world and some part of our souls in a better place than they found it. Georgina ticked all those boxes, why else would Hundreds of us gather here tonight traveling through, from a Darwin perspective, the rigor of a cold winter's night in Wellington to remember and celebrate her. I first [01:48:30] heard of Georgina as the improbable Mayor of Cartherton. I first met her as she was emerging as the Labour candidate for the Wairarapa when attending the Hero Parade in Auckland. She joined me in Parliament later that year as one of Labour's Rainbow Trio. We worked together on sex worker and civil union law reform. She claimed that her role was allowed to persuade [01:49:00] mine as strategist. A senior whip during the last three years of that Labour government. I handled some of the excitement and issues which she generated as her focus moved to life out of politics. And then, just as COVID was arriving, she used to pop round to see us at our home in Miramar. I don't want to linger tonight. There are better and better informed speakers here than me. But I just wanted to offer a crisp [01:49:30] answer from my perspective. to the four questions that float in my mind. They're the questions which apply to every life lived, and they take on special meaning for extraordinary lives such as Georgina's. Georgina was a true product of her iwi, in spite of being rejected by them, and of Aotearoa New Zealand. She emerged through our egalitarian society, which nurtured and accepted her rebelliousness [01:50:00] and her feistiness. And responded to her very reasonable demand to be accepted and to be heard. She handled her complexities with skill and made them into enigmas. As just one of many examples, she was literally a former sex worker with the surname of a captain of industry. Second, what has she left behind her? Georgina allowed the [01:50:30] extraordinary to live among us. She was a very definition of, it's possible. More than just being, which would be a big achievement in itself, she became the poster child for reforms which were world leading. That support was authentic because those reforms shouted Georgina from the rooftops. They were emancipating laws, offering a pathway in from the margins. When Georgina departed parliament, ultimately for unemployment, [01:51:00] and her losing battle with a chronic health condition. She showed a survivor's instinct, which few of us could aspire to. Third, what will we miss about her? Georgina's sense of certainty was almost palpable. That alone inspired many of us here tonight. Her curled lip and the rasping powerful words delivered when required with just a hint of snarl. She had lived a life and had the [01:51:30] powerful ability to talk from that place of intense personal experience. Her words really did move minds and votes. Fourth, what could have been. Georgina was always ready to move on to the next project. My great regret was that our system.. or indeed any other system couldn't generate a meaningful role for Georgina after she left parliament. I saw a [01:52:00] possible role as an international advocate for what is the best about human rights in Aotearoa, but instead she experienced long periods of introspection with brief interludes of bright sunlight. That was her and our loss. I really don't know if Georgina believed in a heaven. Some here do, for sure. I do know that in our memories, in our dreams, and in the heaven, we may imagine, and even experience, Georgina will [01:52:30] play a special role as a compelling commentator, as a determined challenger, and as the living example of what can be. I don't want to finish talking about Georgina, uh, without some of the, couple of the funny little stories. Uh, but I also wanted to recognize there's something special about this venue. The last time I saw Georgina performing publicly was prior to the Oxford Union trip, I think, but I wasn't, I wasn't there. Uh, she [01:53:00] interviewed Chelsea Manning, um, who was the, um, before her gender reassignment. was the person who did Wikileaks, uh, Australia refused to let Chelsea Manning in, New Zealand let her in, and Georgina and she spoke on stage, and two extraordinary, uh, transgender people were there in that interaction. I also, I think my favourite story about Georgina is from Kieran McAnulty. Um, who is now [01:53:30] the Labour Member of Parliament for Wairarapa. And, uh, I think Georgina Uzei used to, um, do childcare for him. He's certainly part of the Labour Fano over there. And back in that first 1999 election, which undoubtedly had some exciting moments. At a, uh, at a candidate's meeting, somebody from the audience shouted out, Where's your penis? And she responded saying, I sent a jar on the mantelpiece, where's yours?[01:54:00] My other, the other one I'll mention, I said I was a whip towards the end, so parliamentary staff would come to me when there were dramas in MPs offices. Somebody come to me very cautiously towards the end of Georgina being there to say that she wanted to have the big box on her table Removed because it was getting in the way But the big box was actually the the monitor and she never actually used email all the time [01:54:30] She did the job and she just wanted to get rid of the box which completely befuddled the parliamentary rules So there we are and one last It's a memory about the rainbow room the rainbow room I think currently with the changes in Parliament, it's no longer, um, it is there, but it's not publicly available. I'm sure it will be soon. Um, Charles Chevelle, who is another one part of the, part of these journeys, one of our gay MPs, every time he had a committee meeting in the room, [01:55:00] often with terrible right wing Tories, fundamentalists, he used to ask that the meeting acknowledge that it was his special room. As a rainbow member of parliament. And you deeply irritate them in the process. So much more I could say. But Georgina, thank you girl. You gave us your all. Rest in peace.[01:55:30] Um, and I'm the partner of Tim Georgina was a, uh, a very special friend to us and I, there are many wonderful stories that I would like to. [01:56:00] But I am actually here to deliver a speech on behalf of my cousin, Louisa Wall, who was the sponsor of the Marriage Equality Bill and, uh, was very close to Georgina. Good, uh, Louisa is currently in Geneva. Louisa says that she remembers Georgina. As a fearless and brave trans woman who left an [01:56:30] indelible mark on history as a beacon of hope and inspiration for the LGBTIA QIA God, this just gets longer and longer, uh, community in Aotearoa and across the world. That was actually one thing that Georgina did say to me that the LGBT.. The alphabet was getting a little bit too much. Um, Georgina's journey [01:57:00] was a testament of her unwavering determination and resilience. As the world's first openly transgender mayor, member of parliament, and respected actress, she shattered barriers and challenged societal norms. With unwavering grace, her courage paved the way for the future, for future generations of transgender individuals to embrace their true selves, fostering inclusivity and acceptance.[01:57:30] Beyond her political accomplishments, Georgina's infectious spirit and enthralling presence captivated hearts, minds, transcending gender identity and her charismatic nature and dedication to social justice and equality resonated with people from all walks of life, making her an emblem of hope for the LGBT community.[01:58:00] IA plus communities worldwide. Georgina's legacy extends beyond Aotearoa. And we did see that very much tonight with Sue Ian McCallum, um, in Sue Ian McCallum's message and her story has served an inspiration for countless trans individuals globally. My cousin says that their dreams are not limited. Your dreams are not limited by [01:58:30] society's prejudices. And Georgina demonstrated that gender identity should never hinder one's potential for greatness. Encouraging others to embrace their authentic selves without fear or compromise. Those are some words that my cousin has written for Georgina this evening.[01:59:00] I would just like to add to that, that during Georgina's, uh, years, Um, around 2016, Georgina didn't have a lot of, um, pute, and at one point she didn't have a car. Louisa and my other cousin, funny [01:59:30] theme this, Nanaia Mahuta, um, saw that and decided that they would, um, have a fundraiser to raise some money for Georgina so that she could at least have a car. Um, we actually never knew how much money we would raise but we did raise enough for her and that evening Tariana Turia, uh, was still in parliament and she came to support that particular [02:00:00] fundraiser. Funnily enough, so did The very people that I had to keep Georgina away from during that Enough is Enough March. Brian and, um, Brian and Hana Tamaki purchased the table. And they came to that meeting. I'm not going to tell you why, but if you do want to come and talk to me about it later, I'm happy to, uh, to, to share some of the details that I do know about. [02:00:30] Thank you, Brian and Hannah, for your car that you brought for Georgina. As Grant had earlier mentioned, and I thought Georgina had forgotten the fact that I was the poor little sod that had.. To follow her around during that enough is enough much at the last minute. No warning and We [02:01:00] were in the middle of all of this this blackness and not enough You remember but it had been raining and we were standing ankle deep in mud in the middle of this March And I thought that actually someone was gonna clout us So but before I knew it Georgina had spun on her heels After I did tell her that she should leave, and took off, and I turned around and she was gone.[02:01:30] And there she was standing in front of Parliament, and I hadn't quite figured out what was going on, and she was screaming at the, at the TV cameras. Um, and it wasn't until a little bit later that, um, you know, a few minutes later after, I crawled my way out of that crowd back up and through the mud and back onto the steps of Parliament. And I'd just like to say that that flag that everyone was holding in front of Parliament, That was mine.[02:02:00] And I, and I, and I hung and Jackie's sitting down here going, Yes. I, I, I snuck into Parliament, into the area above the doors of Parliament and threw it over the, over the, uh, over the balcony for my one moment. I thought I was going to get arrested. Um, but, Georgina, love you. [02:02:30] Um, and thank you for everything that you, for your friendship, really, um, for being just present. So thank you all very, very much also for, um, giving, uh, or coming and sharing in this, in this space.[02:03:00] Kota Hikapua! He mara mai i te whenua Kia peti te [02:03:30] rohe tua He kahurangi He kore koe ena roho[02:04:00] [02:04:30] Uh, thank you, Tim. Thank you Ramon. And, uh, thank you Stevie Chadwick. Fantastic. Our next presentation, we're not too far away, Our next presentation was filmed in Parliament Grounds and at Scotty and Mel's Cocktail and Lounge Bar. It was recorded three weeks before Georgina sadly passed away. It was [02:05:00] recorded for World Pride, um, in Sydney and was played right before. Here we go with a little bit of world pride from Georgina. Georgina passed away peacefully on Monday the 6th of March, surrounded by her nearest and dearest [02:05:30] friends. She had fully accepted the reality of her life diminishing. She had a twinkle in her eyes and was cracking jokes right to the end. For our next performance.. Please choose, this time, to reflect on your memories of Georgina. Could you please welcome back to the stage, the one and only Polly Fuller.[02:06:00] Thank you so much, Polly. Fantastic. This evening's presentation could not have happened without the support of so many people that gave their time and their energy to make it all happen. Gareth Watkins from Pride New Zealand. A massive [02:06:30] thank you for putting together all of our visuals for this evening's performance and production. Without your assistance, none of this would have been possible. And we're entirely grateful for all the hard work that you've contributed to make this evening a success. The Mary Potter Hospice. For the love, support, and care you showed. Not only for Georgina, but all of us, who practically lived there during the [02:07:00] final week. In Georgina's own words, on the day she arrived at the hospitals, it was, I like it here. I feel safe, and I feel comfortable. Harbour City Funeral Home, for the love, respect and dignity that you treated Georgina with. And also for tonight's printed memorial sheets, which they have done at their own expense. And [02:07:30] I'd really like to give a big shout out to, uh, Ruth. Um, I'm gonna say it out loud, fuckin diamond. Honestly. Really. The, uh. The dignity that you treated our Georgina with could never be surpassed. The Christopher Tooker Memorial Trust, the Peter Rule Foundation [02:08:00] and the Rainbow New Zealand Charitable Trust, thank you all for your financial support and input to make this evening possible. We could not have done it without you all. And to all of you out there who contributed to the Give a Little page to assist us with tonight's memorial. And last but not least, the behind the scenes crew that have worked tirelessly over the last four months to ensure that our dear [02:08:30] friend Georgina would be remembered for all eternity. Heather Hennady and Helene Cullen, Louise Ricard Sims, Cherie and Tiaki Freeman, Brian Jenkins, and my gorgeous husband Scotty Kennedy, Scotty Kennedy Born, [02:09:00] for all your time on the computer. I'm putting up with my last minute changes. Richard Sinnott and all the crew here at the Embassy Theatre. Absolutely outstanding. A massive thank you to all of our guest speakers. Um, as well. Kevin Inouye and Te Fana Fana. The fabulous Polyfilla. And Colagen of course. And [02:09:30] Threesome, the band you heard out there. Apparently there's only two tonight. One taken ill. But they are available for hire, so if you need to know that, then, uh, do come and see us, we can put you in touch. And of course, Cola Gin. The amazing Cola Gin. At a moment's notice, we ring, uh, got hold of Cola, and, darling, could you come down and perform this number for us? And she went, bang, on the button, baby, right there.[02:10:00] Um, I just, before we get on to the next piece, I.. Before we get on to the next piece, I want you to all stand up and thank this man. Because he, this man, was Georgina's family, was her brother. And he was there beside her to the end. And we love you now. [02:10:30] Every single person out there loves you. And you never get enough acknowledgement of what you do. So thank you. Thank you darling. I, um, I really just think that this is what we do for friends, and if any one of us would do the same, um, and I did promise Georgie, um, and she slowly slipped away, Georgie needs to come around to [02:11:00] our place every Monday night for dinner, and um, it was really important to us to make sure that she was eating properly. Um, and she left Parliament. She was on the bones of her fucking ass, to be quite honest. Um, but she was a friend and I loved her dearly. And every Monday night, she would come round to our place for dinner. And we would sit there and we'd have a hoot and a laugh and cook dinner. She'd usually arrive between 3pm and 3. 30 in the afternoon. Georgina passed away at exactly [02:11:30] 3. 30pm. On Monday. Before I, uh, invite Kevin Hanui and, um, Te Whanau Whanau back on stage, I do have one unscheduled guest that I would like to invite up onto the stage. Ladies and gentlemen, I've only met this lady twice before. Could you please welcome.. Karen Morrison, Georgina's sister.[02:12:00] I did have a meeting with, uh, Karen and it was, uh, and we sat in the bar and had a couple of drinks and chatted and, um, we were talking about Georgina and different colours and things and, um, Georgina loved purple and Karen says, look what I'm wearing, purple. Ladies and gentlemen, Georgina's sister, Karen.[02:12:30] Kia ora everyone. My name's Karen Morris. And don't say Mokoloa. Laughter Uh, it's a, this was not planned or scheduled but it's really important that I get up um, to acknowledge all of you. Uh, I've been [02:13:00] sitting there thinking, what am I going to say? From the heart. First and foremost I would like to thank and Scotty. Um, I don't know how shocked they were when my husband and I walked into their bar. I've never been in there before and it was important. It was a crazy, it was Cuba Duba night, yeah. Um, but it was important [02:13:30] um, for me To meet them because they were her nearest and dearest, along with Heather and, whom I've met for the first time tonight, and others that were with her, especially at the end. So, from our whanau, uh, to you, and we're just so grateful that you were there and someone was there with her. Um, it was, it's been difficult, I'm gonna be honest, it's been difficult. Um, because, as.. [02:14:00] That is whanau toto, that is blood whanau, we haven't had a chance. to grieve or mourn because there hasn't been a place. So, it's, this is it for me. Um, so thank you for giving me this time and space to do that. I just want to actually acknowledge also that I'd never met Georgina until 1985. January [02:14:30] 1985. There's a whole back story that I'm not going to go into tonight. Um, But I was searching for my birth family and, um, discovered that the brother I thought that I had was actually my sister. So Georgina, I've only ever had a sister. Georgina has been my sister since 1985.[02:15:00] Our, our mother passed away in 1978. Uh, so I never got to meet her, but I learnt about her. from her family, um, my Aunty Moana and her daughter Kim, who's here tonight. Um, and there's another Aunty that is, was going to be here, but she couldn't make it from, uh, Havelock North, Aunty Joan. Um, they were [02:15:30] my, uh, my mother's sisters and, um, So they knew Georgina as George and, uh, have been on her journey her whole life, so I'm really grateful that you're here tonight, Aunty Moana, and we're thinking of Aunty Joan. Uh, in 1984, 85, when I met Georgina for the first time. I met my birth father for the first time, and his name was Jack Bertrand. That's the Bertrand family, [02:16:00] and I'd like to acknowledge the Bertrand cousins that are here tonight, that have come to support this evening. It was such a special reunion, to meet Georgina for the first time, to meet my birth father for the first time, and to meet Jack. The Bertrands do everything in a pack, you know, they all come and support. It's just beautiful and, um, And we've always been there on [02:16:30] the sidelines. Um, I would run into Georgina at the market in town or sitting outside Café Lafare or, um, Where else did I sit with her? Um, Gypsy Kitchen, I think it is, in Strathmore. And, um, we would just sit down and Actually I would listen and she would talk. Laughter But it was always, just, it was always [02:17:00] lovely. And um, the last time that um, we spent time together was actually three years ago, um, this month, this week that we farewelled um, our mother's brother, Uncle Cyril. in New Plymouth, and Georgina came up for that funeral, for that tangi, and um, she got to, well these two of my [02:17:30] children got, oh no, this one, and yeah, got to actually um, have an amazing conversation with Georgina when we all went out for dinner. And that was really important to me, that they had that connection. Um, with their auntie, you know, and that was really um, another special occasion. The other, what I've learned tonight, I've learned about the loving and intimate [02:18:00] friendships that my sister had with you all. And that's helped fill the space for me of the time that I didn't get to spend with her. So I'm really grateful to you all for loving her. For caring for her, um, for taking her under your wing, um, To walk beside her on this amazing journey that she's had in this lifetime. And definitely a legacy that she has left [02:18:30] for, uh, future generations. So, on that note, lovely to meet you all. I hope you've had a great evening. Kia [02:19:00] ora. to invite Te Whanau Whanau, Maori Cultural Performing Group, to the stage for our final performance. Along with, uh, Kevin Hanui for our closing karakia. Uh, Kia ora tatou. Um, as the, our group, uh, comes down on the, to the platform below, I just wanted to acknowledge again all the speakers before us, Mel, Scotty, everyone [02:19:30] who's contributed to this evening. I also wanted to, uh, To the who are here today. Um, it's a very big, um, thing for them to be with us this, this evening. I wanted to say that, uh, Georgina was really, in my opinion, um, giving right until the end. Um, I was in Sydney at the World Pride when Georgina spoke. [02:20:00] Georgina was celebrated there. And Georgina was celebrated at human rights conferences around the world. So, Georgina, uh, was inspiring to many, um, civil activists around the world, whether they from Africa, Morocco, United States, Russia, Europe, South America, Georgina was a real pillar of, of inspiration. And I just wanted to to underpin just [02:20:30] how much of an impact as a global leader of rainbow, um, communities, of trans communities, of gay, lesbian, bisexual, non binary, intersex communities, all of those communities, um, where we have diverse characteristics around how we present ourselves. love. Georgina was, was the champion. So I wanted to, um, honor this, um,[02:21:00] this occasion, um, and so we have a song that was composed. Um, to honor Georgina. It's a farewell song. It's a song that is, um, honors Georgina as whakawahine. As a, as a trans woman. As a, as a woman. As a leader. Uh, and it's fitting that, um, we should honor Georgina in this way. We [02:21:30] don't have many waiata in Maori, from my knowledge, that acknowledges our, our whakawahine in such a way. And we have lost a few already, um, this year, and I think of Manaoroa, um, Te Wao as one, and there are others. But for all of those, uh, whakawahine, wahine toa, this is our, uh, tribute to Eden tonight. Um, and so we thank you all for, for, Thank you for being able to share this with us and [02:22:00] to give us an occasion to honor Georgina in this way. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. At the end of our performance there will be a karakia and that will be us. Um, for the evening.[02:22:30] Kua mutua te rinawero ki te [02:23:00] ura o te ahi. Kua iho te toi ngata mata e pakalui iri.[02:23:30] Wow.[02:24:00] [02:24:30] Why Born in Joinah A martyr in Cock a doodlie eee [02:25:00] Why. God, God, God,[02:25:30] [02:26:00] Wow. Well, we're uh, at the end of tonight's memorial service. But please do join us back in Blonini's Bar to swap stories and toast a remarkable icon, Georgina Byam. But just before we go, we thought it only appropriate to let Georgina have the last word. I [02:26:30] saw a piece from the New Zealand Herald in 2005, and it was five things I've learned so far. And I'm thinking, can I read these back to you? Oh, God, yes, OK. I know these things can make them bite you in the backside sometimes. But they're, they're, they're really.. It's the trouble with, with speeches off the top of your head. But they're, they're really cool things. And the five things that you, you, you noted down were, one, be who you are. Yes. I stand by that. I have been. And you continue [02:27:00] to be. Yes, yes. Incredibly, I have so much admiration for. Um, see challenges as opportunities. Yes. Yeah, because um, otherwise it gets you down. That goes back to my sort of um, some of the reflections I had on suicide and, and, and bad things that have happened to you. You can walk around with a chip on your shoulder all you like, or else you can, you know, meet the challenge and sort of know I'm, there's something better than that.[02:27:30] Don't dispose of past experiences. No, don't dispose of past experiences at all. Um, you know, that history, for better or for worse, is your make up. It's what makes you who you are. It's what's sustained you until now. I'm not saying live in the past or wallow in it or anything, but just as a marker. You know, it provides points of reference, I [02:28:00] think. Be upfront. Oh, for sure. Well, in my life, that's definitely been an advantage. Some might think it's been a disadvantage, and even though, you know, some could say, well, look at the results of it, like right now, what I'm having, but no, it's um, yeah. And the final one was believe in what you say, but think before you say it. Yeah, think before you say something sometimes, because, you know, you don't want to [02:28:30] unnecessarily, um, Stomp on other people's mana. You know, or at least, um, agree to disagree. You know, on some things. I mean.. I don't like a lot of the indoctrinal.. Attitudes of the Brian Tarnakis of this world, or the Garth McVickers of this world, or the McCroskries of this world. Those who have a different view, but I'll defend their right to say it. And I [02:29:00] prefer to see, eyeball to, you know, look in the eyes of my enemy, rather than those that work subversively. Well, thank you so much. I mean, we've been talking for, I think, about two and a half hours. Oh, okay. Goes, goes very fast. But, um, uh, look, I, I think, um.. Have you asked about everything you wanted to know? No. No. No, no. Well, what were some of the other questions? They might have been better. No, we've covered a lot of ground. It's, it's.. [02:29:30] It's been, it's been great. But, um, yeah, thank you so much because, um, I think there are a whole lot of people out there that really admire, um, what you've done and who you are and, um, just seeing you in Parliament, I mean, the symbolic nature of that gives so many people hope. But did they feel the same way with Chris and with Tim and with Marion and with Charles and with Grant and.. Marilyn Waring, of course. I think she's [02:30:00] revered in that regard because of her experience, which is incredible. And, um, you know, many others. For the transgender world, yes. But I think apart from that, I'm, I'm not so special. Um, I think people just enjoyed at the time the whole spectacle of this unconventional politician arriving on the national [02:30:30] stage and then the international stage legitimately, cleanly, and there was just a whole lot of elements I think that gave people a sense of, you know. I feel good about this. I don't feel badly about it. Good on her. You know, there's some kind of, sort of, underdog. Battler from Struggle Street did well, just to pinch a phrase off John Banks. Um. That I was mayor of his hometown makes me happy.[02:31:00] Yeah, I mean, I kind of think it was actually, um. For me personally, you know, we have a strong person that knows who they are, that is doing the right thing. And actually I, I, I really admire that. Thank you. Thank you.[02:31:30] Thank you all for your attendance here this evening. I'm Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan. It's been a pleasure to host you all. Please join us in Blondini's. Ka kite anō. IRN: 3622 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/chosen_family_night_panel.html ATL REF: to be confirmed ATL URL: TITLE: Chosen Family Night panel USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Bronwyn White; Caleb Gordon; Dana de Milo; David Oxenbridge; Erin Ramsey; Gareth Watkins; Jan Logie; Kerryn Pollock; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Will Hansen INTERVIEWER: TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2020s; Alfies 2; Amanduh la Whore; Aotearoa New Zealand; Arkansas; Bistro bar; Bloomers Review (Alfies); Bronwyn White; Caleb Gordon; Carmen Rupe; Chechnya Vigil (Wellington); Chrissy Witoko; Circle (magazine); Cuba Street; Dana de Milo; David Oxenbridge; Doodle Inn; Elizabeth Kerekere; Embassy of the Russian Federation in New Zealand; Erin Ramsey; Fired Up Stilettos; Gareth Watkins; Gender Minorities Aotearoa (GMA); Georgina Beyer; Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga; InsideOUT Kōaro; Jacquie Grant; Jan Logie; Karori; Kerryn Pollock; Leilani Sio; Malcolm Kennedy-Vaughan; Member of Parliament; My Body, My Business: New Zealand Sex Workers in an Era of Change (book); New Zealand Heritage List/Rārangi Kōrero; OUT! empire; Oaks Complex; Parliament buildings; Parliament grounds; Part of the Whanau: The Emergence of Takatāpui Identity (thesis); Pound nightclub; Rainbow Crossing; Rainbow Crossing (Paekākāriki); Rainbow List Project; Rev Dr Susan Jones; Rion McKenzie; Royal Oak Hotel; Russia; Scott Kennedy; St Andrew's on the Terrace; St Peter's church; Tavern bar (Royal Oak Hotel); The Glamaphones (Wellington); Toledo bar (Royal Oak Hotel); Transgender Day of Remembrance; Tīwhanawhana; United States of America; Walktours NZ; Warren and Mahoney Architects; Wellington; Wellington City Gallery; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); Will Hansen; academia; activism; bisexual; compact disc; disability; disability rights; femininity; gay; gender expression; hotel; hīkoi; intersex; joyfulness; leadership; lesbian; lesbian separatism; mana; masculinity; non-binary; ostracisation; police; pridenz. com; public bar; queer; queer joy; religion; resilience; resistance; respect; rural; sailor; sex work; social history; social media; stripper rights; takatāpui; trans; transfeminine; transgender; whakapapa DATE: 17 June 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Wellington City Gallery, 101 Wakefield Street, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the Chosen Family Night panel discussion held on Saturday 17 June 2023 at City Gallery Wellington. Panellists Kerryn Pollock, Erin Ramsey and Gareth Watkins share their passion for unveiling and sharing rainbow history through local stories. The event is MC'ed by Will Hansen. A special thanks to the organisers and participants for allowing the event to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Kia ora everybody. Uh, yes, so my name is Will. Firstly, just huge thanks to Caleb for putting this all together. Um, it's just such a privilege to get to come to events like this where we get to gather our communities together and, uh, it's so wonderful. I know, uh, for myself, just seeing so many familiar faces and new faces as well. And it really does feel like coming home when you come to queer events in Pōneki and, uh, I always think what my young self would think, my young closet self would think getting to come in and keep on seeing [00:00:30] all these wonderful rainbow faces and, uh, new faces every time as well. Um, so welcome everyone. So glad you could be here. Um, it's my absolute honor to be your MC, uh, for this. fabulous panel today. We're in the presence of such incredible queer historic knowledge, uh, sitting, sitting on either side of me, um, who are doing such incredible things, uh, to preserve and share queer histories. Um, so yeah, today we're going to hear from, uh, some local stories about queer lives in this place, [00:01:00] uh, in Porneke, uh, and after each, each one of these guys are going to, I'll pass the mic around, oh no, I'll introduce you guys. Yeah, I'll introduce them. And then, they're each gonna come up and, um, give a presentation about some local stories. Uh, then I'll ask some questions to get us started. Then I'll open it up to all of you. Um, if you do ask a question, please wait for a microphone to be handed to you. Uh, we're recording for prideNZ. com, so you get to be part of history if you ask a question. So I think that's a really good incentive. [00:01:30] Um, and yeah, without further ado, uh, so.. Firstly, we've got the wonderful Kieran Pollock, uh, Kieran is a historian and senior heritage, uh, advisor at Heritage New Zealand, who's currently leading the Rainbow List project, which I'm sure we'll hear more about, it's a fantastic project, and I encourage you all to get thinking and send Kieran emails if you've got any ideas after, after Kieran's speech, uh, and then we'll hear from Erin Ramsey, Erin is a A colleague of mine up at Victoria University, Aaron's [00:02:00] just finished their master's thesis about histories of non binary people in Aotearoa, New Zealand, so that's absolutely incredible work that we're very lucky that they've done, so excited to hear more about that. And then finally we've got the wonderful Gareth Watkins sitting over here. Uh, Gareth is currently a data man collections data manager. at Te Papa, um, and a community historian whose website, prideNZ. com, uh, has over 800 audio recordings of, yeah, it's a huge wahoo, it's awesome, of um, [00:02:30] different events and interviews that Gareth has done and other people have done. Um, so definitely check out prideNZ. com if you haven't already. Um, and he also does fabulous walk tours with his wonderful partner Roger, um, which I'm sure you'll talk about as well. So, yeah, without further ado. Uh, Kieran, would you like to get us started? Oh, don't forget, oh, yeah. Thank you, Will. Um, thanks so much for coming, everybody. Um, [00:03:00] I just want to reiterate, um, thank you to Caleb for putting this event on. It's truly amazing, and I think we all know how important, uh, events like this are to help us bring, bring us all together, um, in the face of some pretty horrific stuff that's going on right now. Also, I always have to shout out to Gareth's work when I do this sort of thing because it is a truly amazing resource. I use it a lot in my work at Heritage New Zealand, Pohiri Taonga, and just generally speaking. Uh, do check it out. That is [00:03:30] truly amazing. Um, so.. A really important, um, piece of work that I do in my professional life, which is really meaningful to me in my personal life, is, uh, we'll mention the Rainbow List Project, which is a project that is geared towards Um, ensuring that our heritage list, which is what Heritage New Zealand does, it's our national list of historic places, that it really represents and includes our communities didn't used to.[00:04:00] Um, I think we all know why. I don't need to go into the reasons there. Um, and it's something that we needed to remedy. So that's my, my baby and it brings me a lot of joy and fulfillment. Um, heritage is all about the history of place. And so in the course of I've come across some really fascinating places, um, including in Wellington, and I'm going to talk about one of them tonight. So, [00:04:30] um, all of you, I'm sure, will recognize the rainbow crossing that's not too far away from here. I do apologize for this less than ideal picture. Um, so that's it from the air. And the building to the right of that is the Oaks Complex building, uh, which has totally seen better days. Um, . It wasn't once that way. It is now. Uh, but so when the Rainbow Crossing was opened on [00:05:00] that intersection in 2018, the Mayor of Wellington at the time, Justin Lester, said it was placed there because Cuba Street is considered by many to be the spiritual home of Wellington's Pride movement, which is absolutely true. It's a great shout out to our city's queer history, but it's much more than that. Um, the Crossing was a perhaps, Overdue public acknowledgement that Wellington actually has a queer history. Um, It's like the heritage list, you know, we've [00:05:30] got all of these places and lists and books and so on, um, that for various reasons don't tell our stories, um, and it's up to us to remedy that as historians. Um, so, if Cuba Street was the queer spiritual home of our city, then the Royal Oak Hotel was something like the living room or the kitchen. You know when you're at a party and people congregate in the living room or the kitchen. Well, absolutely, the Royal Oak Hotel site, um, was that place. Um, and can I just [00:06:00] say, if anyone here was there at the time, I would love to talk to you, um, about it. Uh, so.. That's the Royal Oak Hotel. So this building was on the site of the Oaks complex now. So for those of you who don't know, that's the building that has, I think it's got the body shop on one corner and Area 51 on another corner. This building here was built in 1900. [00:06:30] It was the third hotel of the same name on that site. This view here, I don't know if it's obvious to you all, but it's the Manor Street side, so you imagine if you're standing at the bus stop outside the Bargain Chemist and you're looking towards the Oats Complex, that's the view that we're looking at here. Um, so why am I interested in this? Well, hotels and pubs and bars are really crucial sites in our queer history. Um, you know, if we're [00:07:00] thinking about chosen family, um, they are absolutely crucial to that concept. So, after the Second World War, This building here, the Royal Oak Hotel, became a really popular watering hole for visiting sailors, um, but also the city's colourful subcultures, and so we're talking sex workers and their pimps, gangsters, drug dealers, but also the queers of the city. It [00:07:30] had a number of different bars on the inside of it, um, And some of those bars were where the queers congregated. Um, this first one here is the tavern bar. And this is the public bar. Uh, the really important queer space in the Royal Oak was the Bistro Bar, and I have not ever located a photo of that, so if anyone has got any tips, do let me know.[00:08:00] Um, let's go back to the tavern bar. So, the late and absolutely great Georgina Byer, um, rest her, and our local hospitality legend Malcolm Kennedy Vaughan met there in the early 1970s, uh, when 17 year old Georgina got her first job in Wellington as a night porter. Um, and Malcolm worked in the Oaks coffee shop nearby. I [00:08:30] had the great good fortune to.. about three hours talking to Georgina and Scotty and Mel about all manner of things, queer in Wellington, including this place. Um, we had quite a few wines, it was extremely entertaining. Um, and one of the highlights of my career to date. Um, I did record it, uh, but I, I haven't got any footage to share with you tonight because We did have a few [00:09:00] wines and I forgot to get permission to share the recording. Um, however I can tell you that, um, what Georgina told me about this place. So she said that the Royal Oak ran a diverse clientele. By the way, I just want to preface this by saying that the language in here is Georgina's language, her language of the time, absolutely valid to her. Some, it might not be for us today, but this is, this is what she said to me. The Royal Oak Hotel ran a [00:09:30] diverse clientele. If you wanted anything, you'd go to the Bistro Bar, so that's the bar that I have not found a photo of. Big rumbles would go down there. There were crims of all sorts, stealing to order. The Bistro Bar was where the trannies and the prostitutes would go. The Tavern Bar, so that one there, was where the gay boys would go. Upstairs was a Toledo, a more classy bar where the trendy gays went. Um, she told me that there wasn't much lesbian space at the Royal Oak, but um, [00:10:00] my research has shown that lesbians did indeed go to the Royal Oak, yay. Um, Um, apparently the story goes that they would be escorted in there by gay men. Um, it was really tricky for women to go into pubs back at that time, um, so they didn't even escort. Uh, but once they were inside, they went their separate ways and found the people that they were really interested in. Um, also the Royal Oak was a place where lesbian feminists [00:10:30] sold their lesbian journal, The Circle, which is the first lesbian journal in New Zealand in the 1970s when it first started being published. So obviously.. It was a place where lesbians went as well. Um, one of the things that I really love about the Royal Oak Hotel and I think why it's become such a, uh, source of interest to me is that it truly exemplifies the chosen family concept. Um, and I use that word, that sort of phrase liberally, um, [00:11:00] Georgina mentioned all the rumbles that went down there. There was a lot of criminal activity, um, that went on, um, but that's what families are like. There's the good, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Um, but it absolutely was a place where queer people could go, um, post second world war and feel at home. Um, I can't describe it better than Georgina does, so just bear with me while I read a small excerpt from her autobiography, Change for the Better, which [00:11:30] is an amazing read. Please read it. Um, she says, It was at the Royal Oak Hotel that I discovered the Wellington gay scene. The hotel had two bars, the Bistro and the Tavern. The Bistro was always seen as a bar for sailors, prostitutes and people of dubious morals, while the Tavern was definitely regarded as a gay bar. At the time, the Tavern Bar and the Dorian Society Club in Lambton Quay were the only two venues for gay men in Wellington. Carmen's establishments were also [00:12:00] welcoming of gay patrons, but I was totally unaware of the drag scene then. So just think, Georgina is 17 at this time. At the Royal Oak Hotel, I met Rion McKenzie, the hotel's restaurant manager. He was gay and intuitively detected that I was not straight. Rion befriended me and introduced me to a wide circle of people, both straight and gay. Through the tavern bar, I got to know the gay scene further. Though I was working as a porter, I was actually underage to be in a bar. I was [00:12:30] 17 and quite naive. But with my flamboyancy, I fitted in well. There was general acceptance of me as new, young meat. And I felt comfortable. For the first time in my life I was able to let my guard down a bit and become more relaxed. I wasn't immediately ostracized for being feminine and I didn't have to do the superficial macho thing. Being femmy or flamboyant among gays was the norm. Isn't that lovely?[00:13:00] Ah, so this is obviously Georgina looking absolutely stunning. What a babe. Um, and on the right is a very young Mel from Scotty and Mel's Bar. Um, yeah. So those two went on to flat together. They were the best of friends and I know that Georgina had dinner with Scotty and Mel every Monday. Um. Until not long before her passing. Which is just really [00:13:30] gorgeous. Um. Sadly, the hotel was demolished in 1979. Um, this is a real occupational hazard for me in heritage that so many of our queer spaces have been demolished or lost through other means. Um, it's a problem for us anyway. But particularly when you come to think of, you know, subcultures, marginal communities, whatever you want to call it. Um, who's.. whose tenure in these places is, is pretty [00:14:00] contingent on all sorts of things that are outside of their control. It's really hard to find actual places, still, that represent these people. And I know, Gareth, you find that with your walks. You know, you're often talking about what was there, rather than what is there today. Um, but if you look at the rainbow list, you'll see that there are some places left. Just a plug for that. So, this, this is the Oaks, looking slightly cooler than it does these days. This was built in 19, uh, 1981. [00:14:30] Um, it's actually designed by the very, uh, renowned architectural firm Warren and Marnie. And, um, for some reason they don't, um, talk about this as being one of their buildings. Uh, it's really hard to track, track down, but yes, they did design it. Um, There are some more photos of this on DigitalNZ, I think, um, and you can see the inside. It was supposed to be a pretty swanky, I think, mall. Apparently it was only supposed to be [00:15:00] temporary, but it was intended to be Wellington's Crystal Palace. So the Crystal Palace was a building in 1850s London that was built for a big fair. So it was supposed to be this amazing space, and it didn't quite work out that way. Um, however, um, because of its, um, connection to our queer history, I totally think it's right for a takeover. So if there are any, um, queer artists or performers out there, I think you should go up the stairs and check out the space and do something there. Because that would be [00:15:30] amazing. Um.. There were actually queer bars in this building as well, um, there was Bamboo, which I think Mel might have worked at, um, the Toledo, and later on Pound was there, yeah. So, it's no coincidence, um, that the Wellington branch of Alfies, which was a queer nightclub, that was first opened in Auckland and was open there for a very long time. Um, was opposite [00:16:00] the Oaks. So that's, as you can see, the Rainbow Crossing and that early 1980s building there, um, was the site of Alfie's. Um, that's um, marketing from the time. Pretty great. Uh, so Alfies II was opened between 1988 and 1994. Um, so some of you here might remember that place. Um, it was basically the [00:16:30] local headquarters of Out Magazine, which was a queer empire that was based in Auckland. And they had Alfies there. Um, also Saunders and Out magazine. Um, so this was the, the Wellington branch. Um, so the Alfies in Wellington also had a sauna for a time, I believe. Various other queer businesses. There was the Out Bookshop, um, which was open until [00:17:00] 1994, I think, when it closed. So when it opened.. The legendary trans diva, Carmen Arrupe, was flown in, she was living in Sydney at the time, to open it. Uh, Georgina Byer was one of the entertainers on the night, so Georgina had made a real career up in Auckland in the Alfies there as part of Bloomers, which was a, a dancing troupe, I guess you would say, very popular. Um, so they were flown down here to open Alfies. Um, Mal Kennedy Vaughan [00:17:30] was assistant manager for a time. Um, so just to reiterate, I don't think it's any coincidence that Alfie's was opened in this location, right opposite the Royal Oak Hotel. Um, it's really clear that this is a queer nexus for Wellington in terms of our queer history and heritage. And while it's not so obvious today, the Rainbow Crossing really speaks to that. Um, so for me.. This place, [00:18:00] this intersection, this building, or the building that once was, um, is an absolute, um, exemplification of a chosen family. Thank you. Kia ora tatou. Um, as Will said, my name's Erin. Um, I have recently submitted my master's thesis at Vic. [00:18:30] Um, I am currently awaiting my grade. So that's kind of a fun position to be in, but anyway, um, yeah, before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge Wellington's tangata whenua and whose lands we're currently on, um, including Ngāti Toa, Rangatira and Taranaki Whānui. Um, I'd also like to thank Caleb from City Gallery for helping put this event together and for Will, um, who invited me to [00:19:00] be a part of this, so yeah, very grateful. Um, I've only got the one slide, so apologies I haven't got any pictures, but, um, I'll try to tell this a bit like a story maybe. So if you want to like sit back, close your eyes, maybe just have a listen. So yeah, as you can see from my slide and Will's introduction, the topic of my thesis was non binary history in Aotearoa, New Zealand.[00:19:30] This was a tricky topic to approach, as some of you might imagine. Given that in our archives, there really aren't any written sources that use the label non binary beyond ones from probably the early 2010s on, this does not mean that our country Doesn't have non binary history. Um, as is possibly typical in queer history, you have to get creative with where you look for those stories. Um, so for my thesis, I turned to [00:20:00] oral history, um, as a, as a source. Um, Uh, place to find those stories, um, which Karen has kind of touched on a bit. Um, I ended up interviewing five non binary adults and elders about their lives, um, and worked with three others who provided written responses to some of my questions. The youngest of these eight was born in the early 1980s and the oldest turned 70 earlier this year. Um, so if anyone [00:20:30] tells you that, like, non binary people in New Zealand, like, oh, it's a young thing, everyone's under 30, they're wrong. Um, uh, yes. Uh, and two, two were born in the 1970s, three in the 1960s, and two in the 1950s. Um, it was an honor to hear these people's stories, um, and to work with them to add to queer and trans history in Aotearoa. Um, when I refer to my narrators tonight, I'll use pseudonyms to maintain anonymity. Um, though [00:21:00] on my actual thesis, I. Uh, most chose to use their real names. Um, so what has family meant to these people who I spoke to, what forms has it taken? Um, in the stories people gave me of their lives, um, I didn't find the straightforward stories you might expect from queer people of family rejection and then acceptance into queer community. Um, though relationships with the family [00:21:30] could be complicated. Um, Bryn, who grew up in Kirikou, which is a tiny area of the Waikato, um, they grew up in the 1950s. They found that their parents were accepting of their gender nonconformity as long as wearing their dad's clothing and running around barefoot was confined to the family farm. Um, Jacob, who grew up in a small town in North Canterbury in the 1980s, was surrounded by matriarchal figures during their childhood, lots of aunties who were mostly storytellers [00:22:00] in one way or another. Um, they experienced family as intergenerational, with lots of old folk and folk who were passing over and dying, and then lots of people being born. Um, Both Jacob and Bryn experienced trauma at the hands of their families because of their queerness. Jacob because of his family's growing involvement with fundamentalist Christianity in his teens. And Bryn because of their family's non acceptance of their intersex body. Um, And later in their early twenties, the shame when [00:22:30] Bryn came out as a lesbian. Um, However, especially in the privacy of the farm environment, more was accepted. Which is very interesting when you kind of think of the around queerness and rural spaces. Um, I think this speaks to both how family non acceptance of queerness has a lot to do with worries around external perception. Um, and also how usually those assigned female at birth. generally have a lot more leeway when it [00:23:00] comes to gender nonconformity. Jacob mentioned that in rural environments, the rules for femininity are really, really broad, but those for masculinity are very narrow, meaning there was no room for any gender expression, other than butch or stereotypically masculine. For their male cousins and their uncles, Lily, one of my narrators who grew up in the sixties and seventies and who was intergender and trans femme remembered assuming as a child that all little boys wanted to be girls until they found out that the local [00:23:30] neighborhood boys did not agree. Um, uh, queer community could be a boon to those who had found little acceptance elsewhere. Um, Huata, born in 1963, found Takatapui community in Dunedin and Wellington in the 1980s and 1990s. Um, and I'll read out, they, they gave me this really lovely.. Um, quote in the interview, which I think is really beautiful, um, as describing how they came across the term takatāpui. [00:24:00] Um, so they came across it by hanging out with quote, queer Māori who are very rebellious that stuck together to look after one another, who had been kicked out of their own families, their own communities, very flamboyant, very happy go lucky partying all the time. And I just really loved that. I understood what it meant. We celebrated it. It held us like a whānau, you know. We could be who we were within the term takatapui. It's so much more umbrella and embracing. I just wanted to be embraced. [00:24:30] I wanted to be part of something that didn't constrict me, but still reflected back to me that I was a worthy person, that I was enough. So, for Huata, uh, takatapui offered a form of whānau that they had not received growing up in state care. Um, Elizabeth Kirikiri writes that takatapui identity is based on whakapapa, mana, and inclusion. Um, so finding Takatāpui community was part of that restoration of mana and experience of inclusion for them. Um, and this is kind of a good place to mention [00:25:00] too when it comes to gender non conformity in New Zealand, Takatāpui were the first. Um, they were as Elizabeth Kitty title, so thesis, part of the whanau. Um, so Hu's experience of Takatapui community as whanau is a continuation of a much older tradition of Takatapui simply being members of the whanau. Um, Huta was also on the periphery of lesbian communities, but they felt alienated from them feeling they did not fit the certain criteria or the certain look of the lesbian [00:25:30] scene of Dunedin in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Um, Bryn also had difficult experiences with Wellington's lesbian separate, lesbian separatist community in the late 1980s. Um, they were effectively kicked out after they, uh, had their, had a process of discovering their identity as an intersex person and then trying to talk to others in the community about it. Um, they, they viewed Bryn as essentially male bodied, even though the reality was a lot more [00:26:00] complex than that. Um, and then that was sort of enough for them to be like, we don't.. I don't want you here. No, just pretty horrible. Um, uh, Taylor, one of my narrators who worked in the public sector in the 1980s, um, tried to set up a gay, lesbian and bi support network. Um, the lesbians, quote, held a quiet vote with the gay men who weren't really that fussed and they kicked the bisexuals out and made it a gay and lesbian only support group. Taylor said that this hurt, as you might imagine. So again, perhaps unexpectedly, my [00:26:30] narrator's experiences of queer community were not uniform. They were complicated. Um, these.. Um, so, you know, that's not great. Um, however, the narrators that I worked with were much more positive about the interactions with younger queer people today. Oh, and this, this is also not to say, obviously, that, you know, their earlier experiences of a queer community were negative. Um, a lot of them were positive and, um, life affirming. But yeah, they were complex. Um, [00:27:00] so yes, younger queer people today, so.. So, Jules, born in the early 1980s, was only really able to, quote, um, process their own experience of gender, unquote, after listening to their daughter talk about her and her school friend's ideas about gender identity. Um, Kali came across the label non binary in 2017, in part thanks to their mahi supporting young people. How Atif feels like even though they are worlds apart from younger trans people, [00:27:30] they have found that when you, quote, when you actually go into some meaningful purpose for being together, supporting the same kind of causes, you just become whānau. Um, and I'll end on this quote from Jake, because it's really awesome. Um, the thing that makes me feel hopeful is seeing young people just be so playful with gender, you know. Just enjoying themselves and being able to change their mind every 10 seconds. All this stuff that seems to rile people up makes me feel so hopeful. I love that. I just think it's all about just trying to feel the breadth of our actual [00:28:00] physical and spiritual beings. So, yeah, I kind of just wanted to end on that how. For a lot of the people that I talk to, um, kind of sharing and ideas about trans and non binary identity with younger people was kind of a, a form of connection and like whakawhanaungatanga and relationship building. And um, so that is kind of, you know, you maybe kind of think of that as a form of chosen family in itself.[00:28:30] Um, particularly I think because. Uh, my narrators potentially felt a little bit alienated from some people their own age, who maybe are not as understanding about trans identity and non binary identity. Um, yeah, so I think that's. That's all I've got. Hmm.[00:29:00] Yeah. Uh, Kia ora. So, um, my name is Gareth and I've been running Pride NZ, uh, since about 2009. Uh, so I've been audio documenting, uh, uh, events and people around, mainly around the Wellington region, um, since that time. Uh, I, I thought. Um, tonight, I would really like to kind of distill, uh, this, uh, presentation into about six thoughts, um, that kind of speak about Pride NZ, but also, [00:29:30] uh, about some of the people I've met and some of the motivations, what motivates me. Um, so my first thought, uh, was, um, find the joy. And I really try to make a conscious effort every day to find joy in that particular day because, um, there are so many, uh, negative things that kind of come at you. Um, finding the joy is really important. And, uh, this is joyful. This is, um, Pai Kakariki Pride. Um, the world's shortest [00:30:00] pride parade, which is just over. Over that crossing, uh, which is really fantastic. Always have a cake. Um, and my second piece of joy is, uh, the first time when you go to a Pride event or be surrounded by queer people. And, um, this is example, the example is, uh, beer at the Wellington Pride Hekoi this year. My identity is such a big part of who I am and we experience.. There's so much sadness around how we're treated for that, [00:30:30] um, but today we can just experience this joy and be around people that are safe and that are kind and that, um, are really accepting and we can really feel that pride in who we are. So, they're coming towards us now, and it's looking amazing. There's so many different colors, and so many different people. Um, I'm seeing signs that say, We exist, get over it. And I'm seeing rainbow labor, and I'm seeing a lot of different, like, styles, and a lot [00:31:00] of different clothings. I'm seeing labor rights. for strippers. I'm seeing fired up stilettos. I'm seeing people cheering. There's a lot of cheering. I'm seeing disabled and proud Takatapui. I'm seeing, I'm seeing so much rainbows and so many happy people. Um. Yeah, we've got all different ages of people and all different types of people and it's looking really amazing. Um, we've got this gorgeous glitter signs coming towards us and some beautiful young [00:31:30] people. This is just absolutely gorgeous. Everyone looks so happy. I just, uh, yeah, you, you can't, um, replicate that kind of joy of being at a pride event for the first time and to actually be able to capture that and for BEAR to share that on the recording was really amazing. So the He Koi, um, ended up at Parliament and they raised, um, these flags. So there was the bisexual, intersex, pride progress, trans, and rainbow flags were being raised. One of the first times in [00:32:00] New Zealand that all those flags were raised, which was really amazing. It was amazing. Brings me on to my next thought, um, I only have, I have kind of, I don't run, I have parallel thoughts, they kind of come one after the other, um, which is celebrate rainbow leadership, and, uh, leadership can take many forms, and so it's individuals or groups like Te Whanau Whanau Tonight, the Glamourphones, Inside Out, uh, Gender Minorities Aotearoa, but also, um, we find leadership in politicians, and this is one of my favourite images, this [00:32:30] is, uh, MP Jan Logie, I was interviewing her, um, a few years ago, Um, which is really, um, it was a fantastic event. Um, we have been so blessed in the last parliamentary term with so many rainbow, out rainbow MPs. Uh, it has been amazing and I can't imagine that happening, um, anytime soon because quite a few of them are retiring. Um, it has been incredible to have those people at the seat of power and to be advocating [00:33:00] for our communities and to be representing our communities. Uh, this was when the, um, flags were flying and, uh, the audio is from Jangi Pride is a time of celebration and affirmation for people who identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, intersex, akata ua.[00:33:30] And while we have come a long way as a country from when homosexuality and trans people were criminalised, we are still a long way from fully realising our human rights. [00:34:00] For many of us, Our moments of peace and our moments of celebration have been hard fought for. So our celebrations, in fact, are often acts of defiance as well as an expression of joy. And at times they are also So, or too often an act of mourning. So in that same speech, Jan Logie paid tribute to Donna DeMilo, who was, um, a Wellington icon and [00:34:30] had recently passed, uh, just before that speech was given. And this is a photo of Donna. And this brings me to my third thought, which was all about, uh, resilience and respect. Dana, like many growing up in the 1950s and sixties didn't have an easy life. And in this audio clip, Uh, she remembers what it was like in Wellington. If you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they're God unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest [00:35:00] me nearly every night of the week. You know, take me to the cells and make me dress and undress for every person that worked there. And then to make it his business, I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on and he'd make me, wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do about it. No matter how I protested, there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. You couldn't, if you, they'd, he'd say, um, get in the car, and I'd say, but I've done nothing wrong. He'd say, get in the car, I'd say I've done nothing [00:35:30] wrong. If you don't get in the car, I'll have you up for, for hampering a policeman in his line of duty. And he'd be abusing me, calling me a shirt lifter, which I didn't even know what it meant, a poo pusher. And calling me names, and does your mother know you're a fucking freak, and, and he'd push my face and, and push it and push it and push it into the window until I said fuck off or pig or something, he'd go, gotcha. And Arrest it, you know, that's what they called you, it. [00:36:00] Arrest the thing. So, Dana, like her contemporaries, Carmen Ruppe and Chrissie Witoku, um, teach us. Not only how to survive, but also to rise above and to actually make it a better day. Um, they offered up opportunities, particularly Chrissy and Carmen, for work. They gave us work and they gave us safe harbors. And we've got a lot to be thankful for, for Dana and Chrissy and [00:36:30] Georgina. My first, uh, my fourth. thought was there is hope for a better tomorrow and this is an image of St. Peter's on Willis Street and there's a lovely, um, rainbow flag and there's a flag flying as well. So hope isn't, uh, just about, uh, being in a religious context, um, but I wanted to highlight that because in the light of the, the, the, the current anti rainbow. Sentiments that are being expressed by [00:37:00] some faith communities in New Zealand. I think it's just appalling. And I wanted to point out that there actually are faith communities in Wellington that are very supportive and very inclusive. So, St. Peter's on Willis Street and St. Andrew's on the Terrace. And this is from 2019. Um, and it's the Glamophones who are, um, rehearsing in St. Andrew's. The audio in this clip is from[00:37:30] 2018. All human beings are valuable, simply because they are human. All human beings are worth loving, simply because they are human. Whether we understand an other or not, whether they are different, they are due respect and the expectation of life. All human beings are due unconditional love. All humankind, all orientations, all genders, [00:38:00] all people are welcome here. So, may it always be. Amen. In looking toward Transgender Day of Remembrance on Wednesday, we remember the transgender people whose lives have been lost to anti transgender violence this year and over many years. We hold in our hearts all those struggling with misunderstanding, [00:38:30] rejection, and abuse for being the way they are, the way they were created, for transitioning into the whole and beautiful selves they're meant to be. One of my favourite images of all time Is this one, uh, this is, uh, shot at Karori, and it's this kind of random time coming together of, uh, we've got the police, we've got a member of parliament, Jan Logie, uh, we've got an official [00:39:00] from the Russian embassy, and we've got Amanda Lahore, and we've got myself, and we're all gathered around in the centre of, uh, Karori Street. Um, it was actually a vigil protesting, uh, Russian persecution of rainbow communities in Chechnya. Uh, this coming together of communities to take action leads me into my fifth thought, which is, um, all about focusing on what binds us together. Sir?[00:39:30] Ah! What's your position here at the embassy? I'm not speak, good speak English. Germany speak? Yeah, good. You from? You from come out here? Here. Violin in Che. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. These are the homosexual on past in D Land. [00:40:00] On there. Vegans, more picture. Please. Why don't you join us? Yes, take Please come take us. Please. Please. Together, please. I won this here. Yes. I think that 100 men are in a [00:40:30] concentration camp in Russia. That's not funny. You're laughing because it's funny. Concentration camps are funny, right? I don't think so. My last, uh, thought I had for this presentation was to, uh, revel in the unexpected. And, uh, a great example of this is when I was interviewing, uh, Jackie Grant. Uh, Jackie Grant's on the, on the [00:41:00] right here. Uh, Jackie was up, uh, from West Coast, uh, at the end of last year. And, uh, in the 1960s, Jackie and Chrissie Wetuku had a restaurant, uh, just opposite Parliament. And, uh, they.. Made the first topless waitress restaurant in Wellington in the 1960s. Uh, it had previously, previously been another restaurant, and that restaurant owner had had a regular booking for a group of prominent religious leaders. So when, uh, Jackie and Chrissy took [00:41:30] over, they kept that booking. Um, and this is what happened. We decided to introduce the topless waitresses on that night when the round table had their thing because we thought If they're going to arrest us, they're going to arrest half of the leading clergy in Wellington That's probably not going to happen. So we rang up the TV people and the Radio station and they're all there behind us. Anyway, these poor guys didn't have a clue what [00:42:00] was about to happen So anyway, I'll call her Mary. Mary had a big tray, with, piled up with meals, and the meal was breast of chicken. We thought breast of chicken was going to be appropriate, and she was holding this tray. She had this tiny little miniskirt, nothing on top, except she had one breast in the middle of.. Those two plates and one breast in the middle of those two plates and up she dropped up the stairs and started putting their meals out with the [00:42:30] straightest face you've ever seen and these poor guys were just, and the, and the cameras and the radio people were right behind them asking them for comment. But we had lots of MPs sneak in. And we had no money when we were doing this either, so what, what used to happen was ten shillings to get in, and we opened at four o'clock, and by about four, five thirty, six o'clock we were finished, we were done, [00:43:00] um, because there were no office workers left in town. And what they used to do, they'd come in and, And they'd raincoat and pull their coats up and they'd come in and they'd pay their ten shillings and go upstairs and sit in a corner. And we only had two things on the menu, a steak or fish. So, someone would come in and they'd order, we loved it when they ordered steak, because they never ate it. So we could recycle a piece of steak about six times during the night. And shop shop next door and order a piece [00:43:30] of fish at half a cent. And I'd run up to the greengrocers just up the road and get a tomato and a lettuce. And we always had a bottle of mayonnaise. And we'd serve the meal, and the meals always looked quite good. But they'd take one bite, the fish was buggered. You couldn't recycle battered fish. But steak, you just trimmed her up and sent it up to the next one. There'd be another little bit out of it. It slides out of it, and you'd send it back up again.[00:44:00] Oh, that's great. Um, and I'll just end on, uh, two, two images which I, I think, uh, um, bring me lots of pride and joy. The first one, Civic Square, a couple months ago, uh, the largest rally for, in support of trans rights in New Zealand, 4, 000 plus people. In that um, Civic Square, which is just amazing, amazing feeling. Um, and the last one, which is the cake leaving. This is Pai Kakariki Pride, [00:44:30] and this is how you exit a pride parade. Thank you. Oh that was so fantastic, thank you guys, I learnt so much and lots of laughs as well, that was awesome. Um, so yeah, I'm gonna, uh, start with some, uh, questions now. I'll ask a couple questions and then if we've got time, uh, we'll open it up to you guys. So get thinking and remember, wait for the microphone. Um, so first I'd just like to know, and [00:45:00] maybe should we just go this way or something, I'd like to know what motivates you to, uh, do this mahi? I guess for me, like I, I'd done my honours dissertation a couple of years ago in, um, on a trans history topic and I was sort of thinking. You know, like where, where could I go from there? What hasn't been looked at yet? And I'm like, huh, I know that Will's doing really amazing stuff on trans history in New Zealand. Um, yeah, Will's thesis is pretty awesome. If anyone hasn't read, I [00:45:30] would highly recommend it. Um, but yeah, and so I was thinking like, is it possible? Could I, could I do a history thesis with the label non binary? Um, and it was really tricky to. Kind of think through that, um, and there is a little bit of archival stuff that I found that was interesting from like the early 20th century, so if anyone wants to talk to me about that, that's also something I feel passionate about, but um, yeah, so that was, it was just kind of like, could I do it, is it there, is it possible, [00:46:00] and that was the, yeah, that was the motivation for me. Uh, I think for me, I mean, I've been in the history heritage business for quite some time, um, but it, it was really an opportunity to bring my professional and personal life into one, in a way. Um, also I've, since I've been doing this work and with a real focus on queer history and heritage, I've become [00:46:30] quite militant about, about, um, the way that, um, I guess knowledge of our history validates our communities today, and it gives us a past, a whakapapa, um, which I think is really, it's immensely valuable when, you know, we're still having to justify our existence, um, unfortunately. Um, so in a way, I, I think of what I do as a bit of [00:47:00] an activist kind of history, and I'm really unapologetic about that. Um, You know, traditionally, you're supposed to be very objective when you're doing this sort of work. But I don't think it works for something like queer history when, you know, I know that you, um, Erin alluded to the fact that it's, you have to dig really deeply to find evidence of our people. Um, because the records are often silent and you need to be very clever and, um, [00:47:30] you need to take risks, I suppose, when you're doing this sort of work. Um, you know, I knew full well that Um, and the heritage space that we had a lot of places and buildings and so on that have these queer histories. I knew that they existed, but we just didn't tell them. Um, and it's a real, it's a, it's a process of delving really deeply. And also drawing on your own, your own knowledge of what queerness is. You're, you're having to.. Um, seize upon clues, I suppose. [00:48:00] Um, and you need to be very careful doing that, that you're not sort of anachronizing and overstating things. Um, but that brings me a lot of personal satisfaction and pleasure that, um, you know, that I'm uncovering these stories of, of our, of our ancestors. Um, I started doing these recordings because, um, I just wanted to find out about my place where, where I fit in. And, [00:48:30] um, I kind of, yeah, just found that I needed to ask people and listen to other people and just see where I kind of fit into society, I guess. Um, cause I, I didn't really have that kind of growing up. Um, I think now I'm more interested in leaving traces for the future. So that, um, in a hundred years time people will be able to hear Bear talking about the pride hikoi and, um, and Jackie talking about, you know, [00:49:00] the doodling. Um, yeah, I think for me that's just those traces that we were here because actually for a lot of queer people they don't necessarily have, um, may not have children to pass things down to. Uh, where do you leave those legacies? Thank you. Um, does anyone from the audience have a question? I think we've got time for a couple. Kia ora koutou. If all three of [00:49:30] you in your wildest dreams, best case scenario, um, what would you have done with the content that you've created and collected and disseminated? What would happen to it? What's the best way? If there were no limits, what's the best way that you can imagine that your, that content would be used? Uh, well, I would, I would love, um, for, um, creative people to [00:50:00] take the work that I do and turn it into stories in whatever medium they have. You know, there are so many fascinating stories in our queer history. And, You know, one, one concern for me in my work is that they are kind of buried in our heritage listings. The information is online for people to read, but how much of that, um, is actually read, I don't know. So, all of us are uncovering these amazing stories, and I would [00:50:30] just love to see, um, people today using it as content and sharing it in whatever way, um, works for them. That was my, that was my thought as well. Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of have like a, um, I quite like graphic design stuff, so I think my idea would be like a really nice sort of like, I don't know, infographic series. Well, not infographic, because it would have to.. [00:51:00] Yeah. Convey the story somehow, but something like that. Um, but it's also kind of interesting thinking about people's stories and where they end up and the fact that social media platforms are privately owned and you know, like if you're posting things to social media, what does that mean and like, how do you hold stories with respect while also making sure that they're accessible? Yeah. Pretty [00:51:30] tricky, but yeah, I'd love to, I don't think I have the Photoshop skills myself, but like, I would love something that looks really visually awesome and like, you know, illustrated really well. And yeah, I would love something like that. It'd be really cool. Thank you. Oh, look, I, I mean, I think we, we're a great representation that everyone comes to history in different ways and actually, um, makes use of the material in different ways and I would just say, look, I would, I would [00:52:00] love lots of people to use the material in lots of different ways and be creative. Uh, for instance, I was doing an interview the other day and somebody was saying that, um, Georgina Byers Prostitution Reform Act, Final speech has been turned into a play and who would have thought? Who would have thought? 30 years ago that the internet would be such a big thing or social media. What's going to happen in the next 30 years? Who knows? I Really favor the idea of democratizing queer [00:52:30] histories so that they are freely available licensed under creative commons or public domain so that people can Um, Respect the histories, but also make use and build on those histories, rather than histories being locked away in production houses or, um, by state archives. Thank you. And that's a good reminder to go to prideNZ. com to, to listen to more of the stories that, that Gareth had. Does anyone else have a question they'd like to ask? That's right, I have some pre [00:53:00] prepared ones. Um, what, um, what advice would you guys give to other people who want to do queer history? Should we start with you, Gareth, maybe? I think I've already answered that one. I'd written that down. Um, yeah, basically, uh, look, I would encourage everyone to um, go out and document in whatever way Uh, and document your histories. And also, um, make sure that state institutions, publicly funded [00:53:30] institutions are archiving our stories, that actually they have a, um, a responsibility to archive, you know, uh, a whole breadth of stories and let's make sure that our stories are in those archives. Um, and in terms of arch, in terms of like creating stuff, you know, whether it's audio recordings, images, wata. Uh, blogging, I, I think there's a whole variety of ways that you can actually represent queer experience, and I think the more the merrier. Um, I really hope [00:54:00] that, um, organizations that are contemporary today, particularly, you know, organizations of younger people, that, I know they're so busy doing their mahi, and, and that's all consuming, but just to think of recording your legacy, Um, you know, it's basically riffing off what you just said, Gareth, that, um, especially when so many of these groups exist in online spaces, like you've alluded to, too, um, how are you going to [00:54:30] record your activities for the future, because, you know, we as historians struggle now, um, using traditional archival sources to find our queer ancestors, um, and I would hate for that to be equally as difficult for future historians because, um, the, the activities are recorded in sort of ephemeral ways or, or thought is not given to, you know, archiving all your work and recording it in some kind of way.[00:55:00] Yeah, I guess the only thing I could think of, and this specifically applies to people who want to do oral history is you've got to make sure it's people centered. Um, I think that was. It's kind of a learning curve for me as someone who doesn't really feel like a people person, if that makes sense. Um, but yeah, it's like that kind of whakawhanaungatanga, like relationship building. It's, it's, um, it's very different from [00:55:30] going into an archive and reading a document. Like you're, yeah, yeah. Just a lot of very specific kind of work that goes into that. Very rewarding, but yeah, it's very different from other kinds of history. So yeah, that's just my thought on that Can we do one more question? Do we have time? Awesome. The last question I'd like to ask you all is what has been the favorite moment that you've had while doing this work? Should we start with Erin? [00:56:00] Yeah, I had definitely I I mean I had some amazing Chats, like I guess on and off the record with my interviewees about gender identity. And it was just like, as a non binary person myself, it was, that was pretty amazing. Um, but yeah, just like little things, like one of my narrators was like, Oh yeah, like I have a kind of interesting relationship to pronouns. Like I don't really have a fixed, like I kind of [00:56:30] use them different ones in different situations. And I was like, Oh, like that really makes sense to me. Yeah. And I guess like, that's, that's a really cool thing. Like you don't, again, when you're like looking in archives and reading books, they don't speak back to you. So that's the, that's the positive side of that is that, you know, you, you know, you get something that sounds transactional, but like, yeah, it's like a, it's a cool thing, um, to be able to like, [00:57:00] yeah, just build friendships and get to know people. Through your work. Yeah, that's cool. Um, well, I can't I can't go past talking to Georgina and Scotty and Mel at the end of 2021. Um, for me, that was just an amazing, affirming and highly entertaining experience. I learned so much. And it really [00:57:30] brought home to me the absolute Just the beautiful connections that we have in our queer communities. And I don't, I know that not all is rosy, at all. Um, and, you know, what you were talking about, Erin, before about some of your interviewees being rejected by lesbian communities. I find that extremely painful, um, as a lesbian. And it's something I really grapple with when I'm researching the history of In my particular [00:58:00] community, there is this really challenging aspect to it that is still present today. Um, so I just want to acknowledge that that is a reality. Um, but nevertheless, I just, I did really feel the love then, and I feel that when I'm reading, you know, reading Georgina's autobiography, reading Carmen's, um, another amazing work is Karen Wilton's Oral Histories. Um, what's the book called? My Body, My Business. [00:58:30] An amazing piece of work and I remember reading that and being struck by how difficult the lives of the people she interviewed were. But how generous and giving and kind they were. You know, that struck me, the manaakitanga, I guess, struck me hugely. It's really, really quite moving. Um, so.. And that, that really helps you to feel part of a community, and it's a community that stretches way back, and obviously I'm a historian, so I [00:59:00] value history a lot. But I really think it's important for our diverse queer communities to have knowledge of their history so that we feel less alone in this world. That, that's definitely how it's impacted upon me anyway. Uh, probably the, the, the most, um, amazing thing that's happened to me with the Pride NZ stuff, uh, was an email I got in 2020, um, so I'd been doing audio documentaries, uh, since the [00:59:30] 1990s, and, uh, back then, there was very little internet and there was certainly no streaming services, so I would do an audio documentary and send it out on CD, compact disc, around the world, um, and so I'd send them to the, the US and things like that. not thinking much of it. In 2020, I got an email from Stephen in Arkansas in the USA, and I think this speaks to just, um, the impacts you have that you don't realize you're having. Um, it's four paragraphs, not too long, just, I'll just read it. Um, I have to admit, [01:00:00] I got very emotional when I found the CDs you sent me in the 1990s. They represent many things to me. I received the CDs from you during a very trying time in my life. I was wrestling to fit into the life of a gay man in the American South. Life had been a rollercoaster for me for years, from bullying in high school, to death threats, to being thrown out of home by my family, and a loss of almost all of my friends to an attempt at suicide. My life was just starting to get on track when I received the CDs from you. I would listen to them on repeat [01:00:30] during my daily commute. The voices calmed me and made me feel like part of a larger community, albeit a community I didn't have access to in Arkansas. I laughed with them and I cried with them. They allowed me to stay in touch with a core part of me that I didn't want to deny anymore. So I guess what I'm trying to say is thank you. I know these audio files were probably just a small moment in your life, but for me, they were a beacon of hope.[01:01:00] Oh, thank you so much, uh, Gareth, Erin, and Kieran. Um, it's been really awesome to have you guys here, and thanks Caleb for organizing this. This concludes the local stories portion of the evening. To you. Yeah, I was just going to do a shout out, um, partly because the work that you're doing kind of links to something that we're trying to do, so, uh, City Gallery is part of a group of organizations called Experience Wellington, and one of the other places that I do some work is [01:01:30] Wellington Museum on the Waterfront. I've got a lovely office in the attic of that building, which is, you know, office in the attic of a museum, dream job. Um, Wellington Museum is the museum of Wellington stories, and we've got a whole lot of curators at that museum actively trying to expand our collection in a number of ways because it doesn't really reflect Wellington as we are. And we have a great project called Recollect, which is, we'll be trying to add things to our collection to kind of diversify our stories and make sure there's better representation. But we also have a couple of programmers based there who do incredible work. [01:02:00] Lani Magnificent, who is our DJ tonight, is one of our programmers at the museum. So she's come in to help me out. Um, as a DJ tonight, but also there's a bunch of programming there that really does focus on our communities. Uh, they've just launched a queer book club, which I think they had their first session a couple months back, so there's one coming up. So please keep an eye on Wellington Museum for some really interesting queer programming coming up, because I know it's one of Lani's passion projects. Um, and.. I'm working with them to kind of weave it through all of our five sites that we have, six, five, we anything's not to pop it and as a museum is [01:02:30] basically owls in Wellington, . That's how I always describe it to people. So we're trying to create this like, uh, annual yearlong queer program. So keep an eye on all the stuff we're doing. Um, and if you do have things that you need to find a home for or stories you wanna share, um, hit up Wellington Museum and we'll see if we can add it to our collection. Cause I would love to see it grow. Um, cuz we're kind of in the midst of a giant reach. of that building itself, so, um, you definitely will have some conversations about that. But, um, yeah, thank you for joining us. [01:03:00] Um, our next thing is, in the East Gallery, I'm gonna talk about our favorite beer in the gallery. Um, but, please join me in thanking everyone for joining us for Local Stories. IRN: 3547 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/letters_to_lilburn_interviews.html ATL REF: OHDL-004692 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093082 TITLE: Letters to Lilburn interviews USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Anna Cahill; Asha Cahill-Baird; Sonia Cahill; Stuart MacDiarmid INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: Anna Cahill; Asha Cahill-Baird; Douglas Lilburn; Douglas Lilburn (former house); Douglas MacDiarmid; Letters to Lilburn (book); MacDiarmid Arts Trust; Milk and Honey Cafe; Sonia Cahill; Stuart MacDiarmid DATE: 14 November 2022 YEAR: 2022 LOCATION: Milk and Honey Cafe, 21 Kelburn Parade, Kelburn, Wellington CONTEXT: Interviews with family members of painter Douglas MacDiarmid (1922-2020). The interviews were recorded at the book launch of Letters to Lilburn, held at the Milk and Honey Cafe, Victoria University of Wellington on 14 November 2022. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: We are at, um, Victoria University, Wellington today, um, on this, on this 100th birthday. Um, and we are here to launch a book. For Douglass's Centenary, and also to give him something of a last hurrah because when we were, uh, when he died in August, 2020, no one could go to his funeral. He, he died completely. Uh, he was buried completely un [00:00:30] applauded, I suppose you'd say. So we thought that this might be a good opportunity. Um, I'm his biographer. Also his niece. Uh, in 2018, I published his, um, his biography and then realized that there was more work to do, um, describing paintings in public collections in New Zealand, which is what I've been doing for the last three years. And, um, and finding a way of, um, representing Douglass for his [00:01:00] centenary. So that's what we're doing today. Um, and the paintings that you see on the walls in the cafe, Milk and Honey Cafe where the launches being held are from the local Victoria University collection and they're part of the McDermots Andary Art Trail. And, and we should say that the, the reason why, um, there couldn't have been a, a, a larger funeral service, um, at the time of Douglas's passing was, was cause of Covid. Yeah. Yes, that's exactly right. Um, we were unable to fly at the [00:01:30] time, so no member of family could go. And in fact, poor Patrick was so distraught, um, about Douglas dying, even though, even though it was expected, um, that no one went to his funeral, um, therefore we felt it was appropriate among his many followers, his friends, um, his family, that there'd be an occasion for them to, um, to pay their respects, um, and to celebrate his life and his work. That must have been incredibly hard at the time not to be able to go to the funeral. It was awful. I [00:02:00] felt as if I was, I had lost a limb or an, an arm, or a leg as, as a result of him dying and not to be able to go and give d give Patrick a hug, um, uh, say or do something for him. And, um, at the distance, I, I live in Australia almost as far away as New Zealand. And, um, I felt down about it for months. Um, and that, Um, it stilled my resolve to do something now. Um, and I'm very glad that we've been able to, [00:02:30] to pull this off. Now that Covid has abated somewhat, I'm sure it's gonna be an, an amazing, uh, amazing launch. Can you tell me, uh, about the, the, the book? What, what, what's in it? The book is a, it's a collation of extracts from letters and poems that Douglas Mc Diod. Wrote to Douglass Lilburn when I was researching the book. And then afterwards when I started transcribing Douglass's handwritten [00:03:00] letters, which are all in the Alexander Turnbull library. Um, I realized that Douglass wrote to hundreds of people, um, in the course of his life, but the most candid set of letters, the most raw content where he talked about what he was thinking, what he was feeling, how well or badly things were going, um, were not to his parents. Walter, his brother, my, my father, um, these were quite beautiful letters, but Doug Douglas Lilburn, who was his first great love and his lifelong friend thereafter, [00:03:30] and they wrote to one another from 1944 through to 2001. Um, and then Lilburn died within months of the last letter. And so Douglas Luborn saved all those letters. Douglass saved both. Douglass saved all their letters and gave them to the Alexander Turnbull. I think believing that one day they would be important. Um, and, uh, they, they had codicils on those letters to say that they couldn't be used in their [00:04:00] lifetimes. Um, and even now they can't be used without the permission of the chief librarian there. So they're somewhat restricted still. But, um, their view was that, um, they wanted their story told, otherwise they wouldn't have put them in the collection. So in their lifetime was their love known about among a certain small number of friends. Douglass never told his family, [00:04:30] his, his parents, or his brother, or any immediate family. This is Douglas mcd. Douglas mcd, sorry, Douglas mcd. Douglas mcd will call Douglas. Lilburn will call Lilburn. It's easier. Um, so Douglas mcd did never, never discussed his sexuality with his parents. They died not knowing he was bisexual, which is very sad. Um, and, um, he had reasons for that. He wanted to protect them basically from, from knowledge that would be, that would be a burden to them, they [00:05:00] felt. And also he didn't want to be pressured into trying to be not gay. Um, one of the rea main reasons he left New Zealand was simply because, um, his relationship with Douglas, with Douglas Lilburn was, Just was a burning passion for him. Um, Lilburn was a little bit more, um, circumspect because he was old, he was seven years older. Um, Douglass just wanted them to be, to be in a relationship. Um, he came back from overseas after three years away hoping that would happen. They were [00:05:30] talking in the letters about maybe setting up a country house somewhere. Um, they both had that desire, but strangely enough, it almost sends through the years that they were. Better people, better, better co communicators when by letter than they were actually in person, often in person. It got complicated, it got messy. They had to be careful in the beginning when he, uh, the early letters, Douglass wasn't allowed to sort of mention how, how much he was in love with Lilburn, but [00:06:00] they had an old exercise book that they would exchange between one and the other. With the heartfelt things they wanted to say. Um, and, uh, I found this all very p um, at the time they lived 700 meters apart and Douglass is as, as we say in the book, used to slip little letters and little poems under Lil Burn's door. Um, and, and it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful story. Um, and it's a story that of its day is not generally told. Um, there's, to me, there's very little written, [00:06:30] um, in its day about. Um, people who were deeply in love, who happened to have the same, the same sex. So I, I felt it was a story that needed to be told. And to me, those particular letters were some of the more lyrical letters of, of Douglass's. He wrote different sorts of letters to everybody. He wrote to, he wrote to about a hundred people constantly. Um, but to Lil Burn, he was always open and honest. There was a great trust between them. They helped [00:07:00] one another creatively, they helped one another emotionally. Um, and that went on through their lives. They had arguments, they had fallings out. Lilburn was notoriously prickly. Um, he'd take umbrage at something that he thought that Douglass had said, and then there'd be, there'd be quite a series of letters. I, I read them in the Alexander Turnbull library, um, where, Lil Burn would be reefing off about something or other. And there's a set of, there's one particular set and, uh, he's, [00:07:30] he's put them in a folder and he's headed them a particularly bad stretch with Mc Diod. They, he never sent those letters. He wrote them, he saved them, but he didn't send them. And likewise, Douglass sometimes wrote to, um, to Lilburn in, in, in his diary. And those were his heartfelt thoughts that he was hoping would, would, would somehow by radar, I suppose, be transmitted. Um, but he couldn't put it on paper, so, so what is the year range that that's covered in the [00:08:00] book, in the letters? Um, the year range is 1944 to 2001. It's that whole, that whole period. Now, there were periods when there were, there were maybe a year would pass, uh, particularly when, um, when Lilburn was, um, was having one of his, he Hesi fits. Um, Douglass couldn't really understand a lot of those. And as they, as they got older and Lilburn got into electronic music and Douglass painted more abstract, um, art, they had, [00:08:30] uh, they agreed to disagree because, um, Douglas. Mc Diod adored Lil Burn's, classical work and his piano work. He hated the electronic music. Lil Burn just simply couldn't understand anything that was abstract and said it had no meaning for him. Oh, it's a, it's a mishmash of colors. That's very nice, but I don't want to own it, sort of thing. And one of the paintings on the wall in inside actually belonged to Lilburn and still hangs in the house that, [00:09:00] that, um, uh, musicians. Stay in. Um, and that was actually Douglas Lewin's home, uh, Escot Terrace. Escot Street. Yeah. Escot Terrace, yes. Yeah. So I'm, I'm just thinking for, for a long period of, of, of, of, of that time with, over the course of those letters, uh, a lot of the time, uh, Homosexual activity in New Zealand would've been illegal. So to actually document, um, homosexual feelings, um, is quite remarkable. That that was [00:09:30] one of the reasons I felt it was important to document that these letters were there for a purpose. Um, and I did discuss it with Douglas before he died, and his view was, hasn't enough been written about Lil Ben and myself? And I said, well, no, not really, because this body of letters is. Is what you are saying to the one to the other. And it, you've always said that you hope that you could, you could be an example to other people to follow their bliss, to follow their passion. Um, and this is a way that you can demonstrate, um, that this can happen. So, [00:10:00] um, I think. I think the letters are meant to be seen now. Um, my concern was that, that, that I'm not a gay person and that maybe it would be inappropriate for me to be, to be dealing with the letters and I hope I've done so sensitively. Um, I, I believe I have, um, I haven't attempted to rewrite anything. It's purely as they speak. For you, as one of the family members, what was it like actually reading those letters for the first time? I was [00:10:30] in tears sometimes, literally in tears. Some of the, some of the poetry Douglass wrote is, is just beautiful. Other parts of it are not so beautiful. Um, some of, some of it was to me just a sort of an experimental word play. And in fact, there was one poem I really liked, um, that had two words in it that I just, I ju I just, I just couldn't bring myself to include the poem cuz he, he had mentioned, um, something like, um, Ah, what was it? Something to do with, with, [00:11:00] with Cula something or others? And it was an awful couple of words and I thought, Ooh, this is just icky. We're not having that. So, um, to that extent, I did edit and really the only import of mine in the book except to choose letters that followed the narrative because douglass's letters actually follow. The course of their relationship, um, and the depth of it. Um, now, and then I've just put a [00:11:30] sentence in to describe, to, to give it some, some context. But apart from that, it's just the letters extracts as they flow, as they flow on. Originally I thought maybe I would do both sets of letters, but, um, um, I mean that would've been another whole set of permissions that I don't think, think would've been a problem. But the problem was, Um, I had, I had given myself a deadline of this, this particular year for Douglass's hundredth and, um, Lil Burn's letters are like cat scratchings.[00:12:00] They are so hard to read. Um, I even took advice from Lil Burn's biographer to ask, is there a keys or a trick to, to, to understanding what he's saying? And he went, oh no. You just have to, you just have to read them as best you ha can and you'll get. You'll get words now and then, but there'll be a lot missing. And, and to me there was too much missing. I had enough trouble with, with, with mc Diamond's letters because Douglass lapses into, into, into Latin and Greek, [00:12:30] uh, um, into, um, Italian, into, into, into French, um, into acrylic, what, depending on what he's talking about. And also a tremendous amount of, of, of quite in-depth material that related to music opera. Um, chamber music about, which I knew very little, so I've, I tried to keep just the relationship and, and, uh, keep it fairly, fairly, um, free of all the other people they talked [00:13:00] about. Cause otherwise it would've been a Bible instead of a manageable little book. Just finally, what do you think Douglass would've thought of, of, of this publication? I think he would've been proud of it. Um, his, his, his drawing is on the cover. Um, he was, he was very proud of the biography. Um, and he, he, he, he trusted me to do what I wanted to do, what I felt should be done. Um, he gave me free range, so I think he would've said, [00:13:30] Good on you. I think that this is a good thing to be doing now. Um, and he over his lifetime was a mentor to quite a number of, of conflicted individuals, and he always said that he hoped the example of his life and his work and his relationships would be, would be, um, of, of assistance to other people, um, and would help them see the way that they had to take. My name's Sonya Kahill. I first met Patrick and Douglas in Paris in July of [00:14:00] 2009. We'd been living in Beijing at the time and decided we were halfway to France. So we'd go for a summer holiday in Europe and I'd meet this, this uncle that, um, I'd heard about, that I hadn't seen since I was a young child. And I'd written to him and, and, you know, told him that we'd come and visit. And he was more than accommodating about that. I. I turned up in Paris with no real, um, thoughts as to what his marital status may be. And, uh, knocked on the door [00:14:30] and was met by a warm embrace by another man. And that was Patrick, his partner. And from there was quite an insightful, uh, journey through what became, um, us as a family understanding who Douglass was and his, his. Uh, life in Paris. Um, I was there with my children who at the time were two and five, and my two year old sat down and started [00:15:00] drawing with, with Douglass as the artist, and as a little two year old, she told him off. For, for drawing the wrong way. No, you don't do it like that. He was quite taken aback and sat back in his seat like, oh, okay. Alright. So he sat back and simply observed the, the children drawing and seemed quite taken with, with their childish antics and, and how they colored. So yeah, it was, it was quite, it was. Quite a unique insight into the lives [00:15:30] of Douglass and Patrick as they lived in Paris. And, um, we brought the stories back to my family and so began the journey that, that became the biography. So Escher as a two year old, do you remember, do you remember that encounter? I think I only remember it through the photos that we have of like my sister and I like sitting with Douglas and painting and drawing with him, and that's how I have remembered him. And then when mom has told me like, you know, that I had told him how to draw, [00:16:00] even though he was a pretty famous artist. It just makes me realize like, yep, that was definitely me. And it's interesting to see how his personality was like watching me draw and just sitting back and letting me take control of everything is definitely pretty cool. Yeah. So what, what was his personality? I. I, I thought he would be a very serious character, but he was a far more relaxed person, particularly around the children. I went back with them, um, a [00:16:30] couple of years later. I was at a wedding in, in the UK for a friend of mine in 2011, and so the girls were then four and seven and we went back and I was traveling with them on my own. So I was frustrated and cranky and, you know, went and visited and I was really, really short-tempered and he kind of was like, Ugh. Just don't worry about it, feeding them ice cream for lunch and whatever else. So he was very relaxed with the kids and he seemed to really enjoy the company of young people. I dunno if he had that much, um, sort of, I guess at that [00:17:00] age, you know, in your eighties and nineties, whether you have that much exposure to two younger children. But he certainly enjoyed. Watching, um, watching the girls interact and just watching them at play and being themselves. And I, I have vivid memories of them in his, in his formal lounge room, which was surrounded by his artwork, simply playing and drawing. And, um, he really enjoyed that and, and seemed to thrive on that youthful energy. And, and Ashley, can you remember any, any of that kind of, um, feeling? [00:17:30] I don't think I do because I was so young, but I think I can just tell now looking back by like the way that people talk about him and the way like he's presented in his books and just through his art. I can just tell that that is who he was. Do you remember his apartment? Only through the photos, but I do remember it was full of art and it was just a classic painter's apartment with all the paint, paintbrushes, canvases everywhere. Yeah. [00:18:00] What must it have been like to walk into that apartment for the very first time? Oh, it was a bit of a shock because I, I don't think I thought that through. I was quite naive about just, you know, what I was doing and the likes and, um, yeah, I, I simply knocked on the door. I remember looking at the letterbox and um, downstairs and it's, Said it said Mc, diod and Patrick. And I remember saying to my husband, oh, maybe that's a pseudonym because, you know, he's very famous. Maybe, maybe he needs, you know, some sort of disguise that, you know, [00:18:30] and it didn't even dawn on me then that there was another person in his life. Um, and then yeah, knocked on the door, warm embrace, and sitting in the lounge room looking at my husband and I both going, what if we walked into, um, And that was quite a privilege I think, in the sense that he, he reserved that for those who did go and visit him in Paris, it was not something that he necessarily shared with our family at least.[00:19:00] Um, it was a story that I recounted to my mother not long after, uh, cause she rang and said, oh, how was the visit? And she'd never been to Paris at the time. And I told her about it. She then shared that with her father, Douglass's brother, who replied that he felt there'd always been someone there and there had been for many, many years, but had never visited. Therefore, he'd never had the privilege of being, of having that, that, um, relationship shared with him, I think. Yeah. Do you think it was, [00:19:30] uh, like Douglass not necessarily wanting to share that with the family that were overseas or was it the family not wanting to know? I don't know that it wasn't, I think the family would have wanted to know. Uh, I think it was probably a time and place, you know, and, and the relationship had begun. I. Far earlier at a time when it may not have been quite as acceptable as it is now. There's actually a painting of Patrick in the MCD [00:20:00] art book by Dr. Nelly Fanney from 1977. So the relationship had been there a long, long time. Uh, perhaps in 1977. It may not have been as accepted in New Zealand as it is in 2022, for example. So I think he may have kept that. To himself for, for, you know, his own self preservation at, at some point in time. But by the time we met him in 2009, um, you know, his relationship was not necessarily a guarded secret.[00:20:30] So it was, it was quite a privilege to, to see that. And then how did the, the family relationship, um, continue after 2009? Because I mean, I, I guess that bridge has really been built, isn't it? Yeah, I think it was certainly strengthened because we actually knew who he was. Uh, our first visit in 2009 was followed by a number of visits from a number of family members who, um, then felt, uh, they could visit as well. So I guess, His cousin [00:21:00] Stuart McDermot had been traveling back and forth for a long time, and Stuart's children had visited him, so they had had the relationship. Um, us visiting, uh, with the kids seemed to rekindle some relationship with his direct family. His brother, unfortunately never got to go and visit, but knew and learned of, of, um, of his happiness. And then mum. Anna wrote the biography, which I think was something that Douglass had probably always hoped for, [00:21:30] particularly with the Family connection. And, um, yeah, it was able to be published before he passed away. So that was something that we were able to, to sort of honor in terms of his legacy. And we've set up the McDot Arts Trust to preserve that creative, um, legacy. And that's, that's, um, They're quite an honor and a privilege to be able to do for a family member. And it's also a privilege for us, for my children, for my, my, my sister, for her children to be able to do with their grandmother as well for another family member. [00:22:00] When you read the new publication of, of Douglass's letters to Douglas Lilburn, is there anything that, um, like, like. Just changed your view of Douglass or, or did you see him in a different light? Do you know? My mother hasn't, let me read it. Read it yet. So the book was, was published basically within the last couple of weeks. It's just come off the printing press. I haven't had the privilege of reading it yet. I'm really looking forward to it. Asher was involved [00:22:30] in quite a bit of the, um, pre-work in terms of, um, um, Anna had visited Alexander Turnbull Library a number of times and had scanned, no, actually it was Covid. So she had received huge PDF files of scanned letters and stuff that she then had transcribed. And so, um, Asher had. Done a lot of work separating the files and things like that. So Ash's very interested in reading it just in terms of, cuz she's been involved in that research phase. Um, but I'm really looking forward to actually being [00:23:00] able to read it because I haven't had the chance yet. She's kept it all to herself. What do you think Douglass would've made of tonight's launch? Tonight's celebration of his life. Look, I hope he's happy and I hope he's proud of us. It was really unfortunate that no one was able to attend his funeral. Uh, it was August 27, uh, 2020, so obviously no one was traveling at the time because of the pandemic. And, um, I hope we've done him proud. You know, we've, we've come together, we've, uh, [00:23:30] produced two books now and we've been able to, uh, promote his legacy and his artwork, and I hope New Zealand embraces it and celebrates it. My career was spent as a veterinarian, but I ended up working in the international, international field and my work used to take me to Paris regularly to, um, the headquarters of the World Organization for Animal Health. [00:24:00] And I realized that I have a, had a cousin in Paris and I should find this person. And so, um, Through letters we arranged to meet and um, I went around his place one evening to meet him and that was in about 2001 and the relationship started then I went to Paris two to four times a year from then until I retired in [00:24:30] 2018. And, um, I would go there for two weeks at a time. So I would often see Douglass on three occasions. Each visit. So we, we developed a, a, a, a deep friendship. And I also had the pleasure of watching his work develop and evolve. And I was always looking forward to what new paintings he had done. And he told me at the beginning of our relationship that, uh, [00:25:00] there was no such thing as good or bad or not. It was, uh, if I liked it, it was good. If I didn't like it, it didn't matter. He wanted my opinions, but he didn't care whether I liked it or not. He just wanted to talk about them and my opinion. So, uh, yeah, we had a good, a really nice relationship. I've never had a relationship like that with someone. Can you describe for me what Douglas's apartment was like in Paris?[00:25:30] I'd been at two other apartments, so I didn't have a great lot of things to compare it about. It was a nice, nice place with, um, the main sort of living room. Um, very high ceilings, I would say. Uh, a sort of 11 foot stud with, um, ornate plaster work, uh, ceiling and. A big fireplace. I never, I don't think it was ever used. His, [00:26:00] um, studio was small but good, natural lighting and tidy. Um, not a lot of space in there. Um, the hallway, L-shaped hallway was, Very narrow. Um, which in later life when Douglass had real problems with balance, uh, it was good for him because he, he reached the point where he couldn't walk without supporting [00:26:30] himself on something. Uh, so long, narrow hallway. And then there were two bedrooms. There was Patrick's bedroom, um, looking out onto the street. Um, nice tall, open windows on. You know, the, the three rooms that face the street had big, tall windows that opened out onto narrow little balcony things. Uh, Douglass's bedroom was at the back, a small [00:27:00] spartan and, uh, a window looking out into a light well, um, and then a small tight kitchen. Oh, and a bathroom. What was it like watching Douglass work? Um, I never saw Douglass applying paint or drawings, but what would happen would, because I was visiting frequently, I would, he would show me, this is a painting [00:27:30] I'm starting. Um, then I would see how it developed. And sometimes a painting would be done between, you know, I'd visit him sort of three days apart and a painting would. Happened, it would be done. Other paintings took, you know, months to evolve. I also saw him attempt, you know, make a painting and be dissatisfied with it. And the next [00:28:00] time I went, he'd done it again. Another iteration of it, I saw 2, 2, 2 of the paintings that I have are paintings that. I didn't like the first one I saw. I didn't like the second one. And then the third one was, wow, that's, that's really nice. I really like that. I shouldn't say nice because it doesn't matter. It's what I like or, or the viewer likes or doesn't like. In, in terms of the, the kind of wider family, what was painting something that [00:28:30] happened within the, the larger McDermott family? I don't believe so. No. Um, I actually had very little to do with, with relatives growing up. Um, I dunno why that was. Um, it wasn't until my, I was 18 when my mother died and my father took me on a, a road trip around the North Island meeting relatives for the first time. Um, so I've, I've had [00:29:00] very little to do with other, other mc diamonds and. Yeah, so Douglas was certainly the first, first one. I, apart from my father's brother, Hugh, um, Douglass was the first McDermot that I got to know. How, how did other family members react to Douglass's painting? Well, my father told me that, you know, they were pretty dreadful. Um, you know, you've got a cousin Douglas who. Makes these paintings, but they're awful. You know, they [00:29:30] don't look like a real picture. So when I first went to meet him, I was thinking, you know, this cousin lives here making, he makes a living out of painting rubbish. Um, how do I, how do you have a conversation? So, I mean, I just said to him, um, you, you're a painter. Um, what is it that you do and what are you striving to achieve? And, um, Was just the right thing to, you know, to open a [00:30:00] conversation. And what was your first impression when, when you saw some of his work? Oh, um, I thought my father was wrong. Um, I think I really like about a third of his paintings. Um, and I have, I have several at home of Douglass's paintings, which, Uh, all ones. Most of 'em are ones I cho I chose because I really like them. There's [00:30:30] one he did for me as a gift, which I don't really like. Um, when I first went into his apartment, he said Any painting that you see is for sale except the except one. There was a painting of this wife Shalin, which it was a beautiful painting. Um, but that was, Earmarked for someone. I dunno the fate of that, but, um, sometimes I would see a painting and think, oh, I really, really [00:31:00] like that one. But, um, if I, you know, by the time I visited again, it had got a red dot on it showing that it'd been bought by someone else. And when you say like, you liked the painting, what, what, what, what did the paintings, how did the painting speak to you? I just had a, an emotional reaction to it. And wh when I said to him, what, why, why, what is it you trying to do? And he says, I see [00:31:30] something that triggers an, uh, an emotional reaction in me and I want to try to put that down on canvas and trigger. A reaction in somebody seeing it, and it doesn't matter whether they are having the same reaction that I did. Um, the meaning of the painting is what the viewer sees in it. And, um, I mean, I, I have one which [00:32:00] is, um, it's called Al with a number after it. And it's, uh, it's bright. Reds, uh, oranges and yellows, clearly sort of sun blasted landscape. And in the foreground, you're looking at the back of a woman with long hair and in the middle distance is a silhouette of a man with [00:32:30] his hand on his hip because they're silhouettes and that hard light. Um, He's got his back towards her, I'm sure. And I said, when I brought this painting home, I said to my daughter, look at that. She has lost him. And my daughter said, no, no, no, no, dad, he has lost her. The painting was actually triggered by a black and white photograph, which [00:33:00] Anna showed me. The woman in the foreground is not a woman at all. It's the shadow of Patrick who was taking the black and white photograph, and because it was so hot, sunny there, Patrick had draped a towel over his head, which meant the shadow sort of was a figure, but. You know, and it's just plain black. But Douglass interpreted that as a, turned that into a woman dressed in black, [00:33:30] but with brown hair. And um, so the story from the painting is mine. My daughter has a different story. I dunno what Douglass's story was, but Anna's got the black and white photograph and it's Patrick Shadow. What has Douglass taught you? I've never, I've never been in a relationship with a person, um, [00:34:00] who was so interested in what I had to say. And, uh, it's not that I would sit there and lecture him. I mean, it was always ping pong back and forth. But, uh, yeah, I've never had a, I've never had a relationship like that with somebody, a talking conversational relationship. Yeah, it, it's, I, I won't, I won't go back to Paris again. [00:34:30] Um, because, you know, I find it hard to go there and him not be there. I used to think, um, one day, this will be the last time I walk up the street and there was the last time. IRN: 3549 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/paul_diamond_downfall_the_destruction_of_charles_mackay.html ATL REF: OHDL-004695 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093085 TITLE: Author Paul Diamond on his book Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Paul Diamond INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 1920s; 2020s; Anna Rogers; Aotearoa New Zealand; Charles Mackay; Courage Day (15 November); Day of the Imprisoned Writer (15 November); Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay (book); Heritage New Zealand Pouhere Taonga; James Barron; Massey University Press; Nicola Legat; Paul Diamond; Prue Langbein; Radio New Zealand; Rainbow List Project; Walter D'Arcy Cresswell; Wellington; Whanganui; auto-suggestion; gay; homosexual; homosexual monomania; hypnosis; internet; mayor; medicalisation; newspapers; pervert; queer; research; sissy; sodomite DATE: 15 November 2022 YEAR: 2022 LOCATION: National Library of New Zealand, 70 Molesworth Street, Thorndon, Wellington CONTEXT: An interview with author Paul Diamond, just before the launch of his book Downfall: The Destruction of Charles Mackay. The event took place at the National Library of New Zealand in Wellington, on 15 November 2022. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: My name is Paul Diamond, and today we're at the National Library at in Wellington in November 2022. And it's the 15th of November, which makes it Courage Day. That's right. And that is the new New Zealand New Zealand name for the International Day of Writers Freedom. And, um, they named it Courage Day in New Zealand after James Courage and his grandmother, Sarah. Courage, because of what had happened after the writing. Uh, [00:00:30] that happened to the books that they wrote today is also a very special day because you are launching your book Downfall. Yeah, I was really pleased when when the date that we worked out was going to be a good date for the launch was actually coincided with, um, Courage Day and yeah, So, um, I've done some other books. None of them have taken this long. This has actually taken 18 years, but, uh, it's it's a story that is in New Zealand. It's overseas. There's because it's about people who ended up in London and Berlin. So it was really important [00:01:00] to be able to try and research over there, which was really lucky to have the support to be able to do that and then pull all those threads together. I remember when this was just starting out. We were both working at Radio New Zealand 2000, 2001. That was a very different time. You know, the Internet was just in its kind of beginnings. The research, I mean, research must have changed so much in that time. Yeah, that would be That's my advantage, isn't it? From having taken so long because, you know, each day there's more digitised material and you're right. When I think back to that [00:01:30] time it was really different. Even radio was working quite differently then because our colleague at the time, Prue Labine, had heard about the story, I'd heard about the story. So Prue actually suggested doing, um, a radio programme which got commissioned, and we started trying to research. We went to and we discovered that the mayor of Wu, who this books about his daughter was still alive and not very happy about anyone doing anything about it, partly out of a sense of, um, protectiveness. Actually, Pru thought for her father Well, also then [00:02:00] she was only a child when this happened, and the original shooting, and this happened in 1920. So there was no one around that we could talk to who was an adult who could give us an adult perspective and also because this was something that got actively suppressed in, Um, it was really hard to find it, but we found lots of things in the archives in Wellington. And then I left. Radio New Zealand started working as a historian, and I had a boss, Bronwyn Daly, who said to me she was the chief historian at the Ministry for Culture and Heritage and she said, Don't try and solve this, but see where it, um [00:02:30] why don't you see where it leads and look at the effect it had on other gay men? Um, and that was a really good tip, because you start. I think that's part of the significance of the story and why it's important to remember it is the impact it had on gay men and queer people generally actually through the generations. Because was this was this one of the first times where the word homosexual was actually used in kind of a public say, like in a in a newspaper, apparently it was, and so the word was kind of around. But it was really in the medical [00:03:00] profession. So by saying when this man was accused of shooting someone which he had, But but blaming that on his, um, disorder, as it was known then of homosexual homosexuality, homosexual monomania, which and the evidence was a letter, a statement from his doctor and a specialist about treatment. So that's that's another reason this is an interesting story because it's about our medical history and he'd actually been treated in 1914. So that's six years, [00:03:30] six years before the shooting. Um, the treatment was probably a thing called auto suggestion, which we still actually use and possibly hypnosis. But I don't think that word apparently wasn't used much. I mean, other words were used like pervert and sissy and sodomy and bugger and all those sort of words which have different kind of context because they're used in the law and they're used about to about to describe sexual acts. This is sort of this idea of the medical term being used starting to be used as an identity [00:04:00] term. I mean, this might not be how he'd see it if he was here now and talking about it. But but the term he used the term, his lawyers used the term in court. And as far as we know, that's the first time that it happened in doing all this, uh, research and investigation. How have people reacted to you Kind of uncovering this history? Um, it's become easier over time to talk about this. Um, I did find a [00:04:30] when we and I first went there. People who were from either didn't know about it or didn't want to talk about it. But people who weren't from Gan couldn't stop talking about it because they found it so fascinating. Um, I think it's it's gonna be interesting going up to for the second launch of this book later in the week to see how you know it's great. They'll have had a week or so to look at the book, and I know they've all been really looking forward to seeing it, because it it's kind of their story in some ways. So I'm quite curious to see that I think it's become a lot easier, [00:05:00] and there's a man up there. James Barron, who was a counsel until recently, um, moved to with his husband, and he's been really pushing for the sites associated with the story to be registered on the Rainbow list. And I think that's incredible. In 100 years, you know, a man gets blackmailed for his sexuality, and then 100 years later, he's a mover and shaker in and and pushing for things just like Charles Mackay did actually, So it's kind of incredible. The the The book is also a part of your life, because 18 years [00:05:30] is a long time in somebody's life to to dedicate to this what has driven you. Why why are you so passionate about this story? Um, I guess it's just a sense of curiosity. You know, I, I think I've I always find I'm curious about other gay lives and particularly other gay lives over time. Perhaps that's to do with when it's something that's a little bit hidden and not necessarily talked about. Your sources of information about the norms are not always, um, available. It's different now in in our time. [00:06:00] Um, it's It's been a struggle at times this, uh, because I guess because I couldn't quite work out what to do with it and and And what sort of book it was gonna be. And it was really only thanks to the interest from publishers. Um, Nicola from me, sort of who she's. We've been in touch about this for a while, and so she'd been a longtime supporter of this, and she kind of picked it up and and helped me get it. Get it home with the help of an amazing editor, um, Anna Rogers in Christchurch, who helped [00:06:30] me do a structural edit. And then she did the copy edit and an as a historian as well and a researcher. So she really tested me on the sort of details. And I'm pleased about that because you'll see in the book there's a lot of footnotes where I've sort of put my evidence. And so that's for people behind me to kind of check the path I trod and and make their own assessment of whether I'd interpreted the sources right, because I'm sure more will emerge. Actually, Do you think after researching for so long that you are close [00:07:00] to Charles? Like like can you Can you see him? Um, biographies are like that. Where by the end of it, you do end up with a sense of the person you end up thinking. So what was this person like? I think he'd have been amazing company. Um, I think he was hugely energetic, and it's just fascinating to think of him, you know, landing in London, landing in Berlin and reinventing himself. And actually the review, you know, that's just appeared in the Oral History Journal. Made a point that hadn't occurred to me. [00:07:30] Is that the real? Another reason it was such a tragedy that he got shot after any sort of five or six months in Berlin is that he really was kind of on the point of reinvention. You know, he really had kind of gone through this process of rehabilitating himself, establishing himself as a journalist and a language teacher, but was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just finally, what would you like to say to Charles if you met him? That it's an interesting question to think. What would I say to [00:08:00] him? Um, I think I get the feeling he's the kind of person who would he'd tell me What? Um, what he was I just He seems to have been a bit of a polymath, I guess. Of course, Yeah. We'd really want to know what happened in that office in in 1920. Because, as far as I can tell, he never talked about that. So we've only relied on a strange, unsigned statement from Darcy Creswell. So we've had to kind of guess working backwards from that. I guess that's probably the main thing. And where is your diary? [00:08:30] Because I know I know he had one, but I don't know what happened to it. IRN: 3584 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/new_zealand_aids_memorial_quilt_display_2023_karakia_and_interviews.html ATL REF: OHDL-004705 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093095 TITLE: Karakia and interviews - New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt Display USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Bena Jackson; Catherine Healy; Clare O'Leary; Michael Bancroft; Reuben Love; Stephanie Gibson; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Welby Ings INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 1980s; 1990s; 2010s; 2020s; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bena Jackson; Burnett Foundation Aotearoa; COVID-19 (coronavirus); Catherine Healy; Chanel Hati; Clare O'Leary; Clive Aspin; Georgina Beyer; HIV stigma; HIV testing and prevention; HIV/AIDS; HIV/AIDS; Hetty Rodenburg; Jane Bruning; Jason Myers; Joe Rich; Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand (LAGANZ); Mary Potter Hospice; Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa; NZAF Ā whina Centre; NZPC: Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers' Collective; National People Living with AIDS Union; New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt; Peter Wells; Positive Speakers Bureau; Rachael Le Mesurier; Reuben Love; Russell Wells; Stephanie Gibson; Te Herekiekie Haerehuka Herewini; Tom O'Donoghue; Tīwhanawhana; W. B. Yeats; Welby Ings; Wellington; Wellington Pride Festival; Wellington Pride Festival (2023); bisexual; condoms; funeral; gay; grief; health; homophobia; homosexual law reform; intergenerational; lesbian; poetry; police; sex work; tangi; taonga; transgender DATE: 10 March 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa, 55 Cable Street, Te Aro, Wellington CONTEXT: Karakia and interviews from before and after the official presentations at the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt display. The event was held at the Museum of New Zealand Te Papa Tongarewa on 10 March 2023. A special thanks to the organisers, participants and attendees for allowing this to be recorded and shared. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: So I'm te I do work here as a head of repatriation and sometimes I'm caught upon to, um, undertake Q Care, um, for special events. Um, so this is a special event and, um, for me the purpose of a Q Care is to acknowledge, um, those people that had prepared the pathway forward for this exhibition. Um, and so it's acknowledging their talents, the gifts that they've inherited from their una, their ancestors, um, but also [00:00:30] acknowledging, um, for this particular event, the, the memory of the loved ones that have passed away that are sort of, um, in, embedded in the, in the, in the quilts. Um, so for this, um, I will leave the, we will walk past, um, the three, um, quilts. Um, and then we'll go to the final one at the end. Um, but we'll face towards this way, the, the other quilts so that we embrace [00:01:00] all of the quilts and then we'll finish with, um, Called and then I'll do a little explanation further around the, at 1120. So, um, if anyone wants to say anything after the, I'll leave that up to you, but please keep it short because the main COPA is at, um, 1130. Um, but you're most welcome to express, um, something after the this time as well.[00:01:30] [00:02:00] [00:02:30] [00:03:00] [00:03:30] [00:04:00] [00:04:30] [00:05:00] Um,[00:05:30] Um, although my words will be short, um, I just wanted to acknowledge the people that have, um, prepared this exhibition today. And I also wanted to acknowledge the people that that made the quilts in memory of their loved ones. Um, the lo their loved ones that passed away over the [00:06:00] last 40 years, maybe 50 years. And, um, we were a different country 50 years ago from what we are today. Um, and so 50 years ago it would've been much of a challenge to actually, um, prepare these quilts. Um, when people that had the illness, uh, or died from, um, HIV age related illnesses, um, we are con [00:06:30] considered in a different category. Um, and my personal knowledge is some parts of our community, um, the appearance, um, of the loved ones that passed away. On certain occasions didn't accept the whanau member back into, into their family. And I know on certain occasions, um, when Tupapaku the deceased went, went to have a ton at them. Mara, the [00:07:00] Mara did not accept them back either. So I just want to acknowledge the memory that's contained in these, these quilts, um, of the children. Of the woman and of the man that had passed away. So Nore, oh, immigrant heavens. Um, I was kaki guardian of the quilts from 2003 to 2018. [00:07:30] When we decided back in 2011 that these quilts needed to be gifted somewhere, it was to Papa and specifically Stephanie. That Rachel Zu from the AIDS Foundation and then Jason Myers and now Joe Rich have all supported [00:08:00] the work and the love of the Roha that's gone into these. And the gifting was made in, I think it was the 3rd of May, 2012. And I was here. Then as we brought the quilts onto the Marai and Stephanie and her team, then were part of that. So it's a very special link. I don't want to say too much cuz I am speaking, but as we [00:08:30] stand just here, I conducted my first funeral. As a celebrant in 1989, and at that funeral the chap said, bloody, good job, Mike. Will you do mine? Russell Wells, the third one down [00:09:00] there was the second funeral I ever took way back in. 1989 and a hundred more followed, and I would just like to acknowledge all of those here in your presence. You, you are the living. That these people expressed in their lives,[00:09:30] and as I have done so many times, a simple blessing.[00:10:00] [00:10:30] [00:11:00] Five G. Thank you, uh, Kira, uh, cor Claire Aho. I'm a lesbian activist, I guess, and I worked at the fitness center during the nineties and went on to work with, uh, New Zealand Prostitutes Collective on safer sex and decriminalization issues. I'm a documentary filmmaker and, and part of the wonderful thing about the.[00:11:30] New Zealand a's Memorial Quilt Project is that it's story and pictures and it's a memorial to the many lives lived and lost in our community. And I think one of the glorious things about it was that, um, during the nineties we would take these quilts to schools and talk to 'em about grief and loss and homophobia and being out and being gay and visible and. For [00:12:00] lots of kids who were, and young people who were very isolated. It was a, an amazing kind of innovation. And also I think it made the kids realize how they could express themselves in different ways, not just in words, but in pictures and in texture and all sorts of things. And each picture here tells the story of a beautiful life and of the memory. But it also tells a story sometimes of, uh, people whose [00:12:30] families did not accept them. They didn't want their full names on the quilts because it would reflect on the family and at the time also, some families would not. Come to the funerals of gay people who had died of aids. Um, I've also worked for Mary Potter Hospice for 10 years and during the early days of hiv, they were the first hospice to accept a patient with hiv cuz there was a lot of fear about at the time. And that has [00:13:00] changed incredibly, um, over these years. But it's only due to the activism and the bravery of these early men who, who. Were HIV positive, like Tom o Donahue who set up the, um, people living with hiv aids union and worked tirelessly even till his very last days on, um, making p the person behind the illness visible. And that was very inspiring. [00:13:30] I was going to say that it's so hard to imagine what it must have been like in those early days where we didn't even know what HIV was. Yeah. But of course, we've had Covid, and Covid was, I guess, a taster in terms of, um, a virus coming out that we just didn't know what it was and the fear and the stigma around that. That's right. And I think that, um, actually Clive Aspen, who is a public health researcher, he, he's written a paper about that and, and the correlation between [00:14:00] how the public responded to Covid as opposed to HIV and aids, and the fact that Covid affected everybody from the get go. Meant that it actually got addressed. Whereas in the early days when HIV was sought to just affect gay men, it wasn't even taken seriously until it people realized it was gonna affect all of the community. And that was part of the homophobia at the time and the, the kind of, um, [00:14:30] The feeling that gay people didn't matter. But I think the bravery of those early activists really changed the face of HIV and aids And in New Zealand, um, Catherine Hilly and the Prostitutes Collective, they really worked tirelessly. With, um, Tom O'Donohue and others, the Burnett Foundation as well, which was incredibly significant, setting up a hospice to really, um, make visible [00:15:00] the people behind the illness and also to address homophobia and our. Society. I guess one of the other differences with, um, COVID and, and HIV is that the HIV response was very much a community led response. That's right. And, uh, it had to be because the, the, the powers that be weren't actually doing anything, but, but it's the power of community and the voices in that community that were brave enough to come forward and say, I have H I V, who [00:15:30] made that difference? And then all the people that got around them. To support the COPPA and the care that they needed. And the, um, the grief workshops. Dotty, Dr. Heti Rodenburg who'd worked with, um, Kubler Ross, set up a lot of workshops for the gay community and their families of addressing people who were dying and dying very young deaths. And that's the difference too, um, that was happening with HIV and aids, is that, Men and then later [00:16:00] women, um, who had HIV and aids. There was not the medication that's available now, which is fantastic now, but in those early days, there was no treatment. And so young men, young, beautiful men, died very young. And that was a big shock. And actually the other thing that happened, um, which you can see in the stories in, in this court project, is that people came home after. Being overseas when they became unwell and their families were faced with [00:16:30] not only them coming out as gay, but also dying at the same time. And so some families really embraced their loved ones. Not all families or not all family members perhaps. Um, and that's, that comes out in some of these stories too, which is tragic and beautiful at the same time. The thing that really strikes me about a lot of these quilt panels is the age in which people passed away and we're talking kind of 30 to 40 years old. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And also, um, there's a beautiful [00:17:00] panel of, um, Russell Wells who was, um, a wonderful, um, film, gay filmmaker Peter Wells brother. Um, and Peter also made a beautiful film, which was the first real film to be made about the impact of, um, losing a loved one with hiv aids. And so, You know, this is one layer of the activism at the time, but there was a lot of other activism that happened through the New Zealand AIDS Foundation and their affiliated, uh, agencies and [00:17:30] networks, and I think New Zealand eventually got it together in terms of the public health response, and that's what it became, a public health issue, and that's what it is now as well. But, um, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of how we address grieving in our community. And it, and it, this is part of that, um, embracing the people that we've lost and honoring the people now that we are working with, who are also [00:18:00] dying. So, um, it's a beautiful tribute at Memorial. And I look forward to the rest of the day. You were, you were saying that you were working at the Athena Center in the, in the 1990s, and I reflect back on that time, and we had things like homosexual law reform in 85, 86, where there was a lot, a lot of bigoted viewpoints and, and AIDS was being brought into that kind of anti homosexual law reform. What, what was the, what was the feeling like working at the Athena Center at the time because of, and, [00:18:30] and, and of course there weren't. Um, Um, really highly successful treatments for hiv. Were there? No, and, uh, we set up, um, with, um, the offender center in Wellington, a, a women's support group as well, and that had counselors and, um, community workers involved. And often it would be partners of men who were, um, who. We're not necessarily out gay, but we're living with women still, but having sex with [00:19:00] men. So they were bisexual and um, a lot of, you know, a lot of things came out of the closet as it were, and also children, um, daughters and mothers. And so the, the support network of the woman, um, ended up also becoming, um, Women who had hiv. So some of the women's, the partners of the men did become HIV positive. Not all. Um, but that was a different kind of, um, [00:19:30] need in a way. And, um, that led to a lot of stories being told, um, books being written and that kind of thing. And I think it just, I. The fact that there was no active treatment meant that you just had to actually work with what you had. And, um, the palliative approach of, of working with people with living till they die basically. And so, and that is still true today of anyone who's dying, but, but [00:20:00] that, um, the treatment that has now become available is, means that HIV is actually. A long term condition rather than an acute, um, life threatening disorder. So that is transformational for people who are diagnosed. But there's still a need, obviously for messaging around safe sex practice to prevent it in the first place. Cause you don't want to get it and you don't want to. [00:20:30] Um, Take it lightly that it, that it's, you know, it's treatable, therefore don't worry about it because I think it's still really important not to be complacent. So I guess that's, that difference meant that you were dealing with the person who was dying, but also a community who was losing a whole generation of friends, lovers, family members. And even now when you think about aging in the queer community. There's a big gap in our aging [00:21:00] demograph because of hiv aids, and that's another kind of grief, a community shared grief, which is why these quilts and today is so important. I was struck when Michael was, uh, Michael Bancroft was talking earlier, saying that he had conducted over a hundred aids related funerals and just the resonance of all of those deaths and, and like, how do you, how do you even. Deal with it. It must have some long-term [00:21:30] effects psychologically on people. Yes. And I think what it had, has also done is actually transform how we do funerals. And that was what was so like a liberating or celebratory nature of funerals. Going from being a, you know, the, the traditional formal, uh, funeral in a church or a. Or a hall or something to being a real celebration of that person's life and bringing in music and art and performance even, you know? Um, so I think [00:22:00] that changed the nature of funerals as, as it was then and today. I think a funeral can be anything, which is really, um, a wonderful kind of fallout from it. Um, but I think the long term. Uh, grief of the community is a bit like a kind of a post-traumatic shock effect or from, you know, groups of people who have been through a war or similar kind of thing that it may not always be acknowledged, but there is a gap in our [00:22:30] community and, and days like today recognize that and, and I think it. It was really important for, for owning it and honoring the people who have passed away, um, and wondering what would've been like if they were still here, you know, uh, Kilda. My name is be Jackson. I'm a public program specialist here at Tupper. Um, we're an kuda on level four of Tup today for the display of, um, four blocks of the New Zealand [00:23:00] AIDS Memorial Quilts UhMing, 40 years since. The first cases were reported in Alua Kiara. I'm Ruben Love. Um, I'm a volunteer with Lagan, so Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand, AKA Alro. Um, yeah, and I've collaborated with Ben Jackson from Papapa, um, to bring this display here. Yep. Can you talk about the collaboration? How, how has that been between the two institutions? Um, we were actually approached by this event [00:23:30] has been initiated by Ruben, um, coming from National Librarian, from gans, um, just to, to find out where the quilts were and, and to ask whether a display was. Possible. And so, um, the it duration of the event that has come together today has kind of been, um, based on a, a range of, you know, uh, parameters that we were meeting and time space, um, the actual scale of the quilts, um, and their care. Uh, so that's how we kind of. Came to the [00:24:00] conclusion of displaying four of them, and, and Ruben has been, um, amazing at reaching out to the group of speakers that we have today as well. So, Ruben, why was it important to, to have this event, to mark this occasion? Mm-hmm. Um, I think one was, I wanted to mark the, the 40 years since. The first reported cases of hiv aids in Al Tiera, um, because it's so easy to forget how recent that history was, um, and that we still [00:24:30] have, we have a whole missing generation of people who've passed on and all of that marga that. Was not passed on to me. Um, and that, that community that I often feel is, is still missing. Is still, yeah. Um, so I wanted to use this opportunity as a time to remember, um, those who have passed, you know, those who are present in the quilt. Um, and also those who are not present in the quilts. Um, [00:25:00] yeah, yeah. You mentioned that there are some, uh, speakers today. Can you tell me who's speaking? Bill Logan, who was, um, an early hiv aids activist in Wellington. Um, and as well be s who's just directed the film punch. Um, and who actually has a panel, um, for his lover? Ian? Um, Yeah. Then there's Chanel Hatti from Una. Um, she's been involved with the, uh, New Zealand Prostitutes Collective and really [00:25:30] wanted to bring tuna into this event. She's spoken before at AIDS Memorial events. Um, Yeah. Also got, um, Michael Bancroft, who is the guardian of the quilt for many years, um, before and, and since it has been held by Tippa and we have Jane running from positive women too, and two speakers from the Positive Speakers Bureau. What has it been like meeting all these extraordinary people? Because these, these community members have been, um, through a lot, they've seen [00:26:00] a lot. Like what is it like meeting and talking to them? Um, for me, the overwhelming thing has been the generosity of all the speakers, um, from, you know, uh, out of the blue email from, from Ruben or I, and just getting the, the warmest and most positive and enthusiastic responses to the event today. And I think really just emphasizing the importance of, of having events like this and of. Of, um, showing the quilts and of people being able to see them because, um, for, you know, they have been in [00:26:30] storage largely since they've been at Tepa. And, um, and yeah, just, just the enthusiasm to, to come here and, and generosity, to take part. Um, it's, yeah, amazing the messages. Um, from some of the speakers saying how honored they felt to be a part of this kopa and to be brought here into the space with the quilts, um, was really moving, really, really moving. So they've all been warm, um, like just the longest [00:27:00] emails about, you know, just really open with their histories, with the quilt and their, um, Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was a really, really emotional experience. Um, and just having a corridor with him in the cafe before, um, was like amazing how much knowledge just in that moment was passed between generations and between each other. Um, and I think there's still not, I mean, we're getting better, but there's still not enough opportunities. To [00:27:30] bring groups of, you know, generations together, um, and sit down and cord it all. Yeah. Is this the first time you've seen the quilts out? Physically? I've seen one or two blocks, um, and back of house visits at Tippa when they, you know, there's only really enough space to one fold, one or two. So seeing, uh, four of them altogether is pretty special. And yesterday or the day before, um, I went up to Torrey Street and saw where they all sit. Together in storage. That was pretty special to see them in their carefully packaged, um, [00:28:00] wraps and, you know, all carefully waiting there and, and to see the process of them being moved down to, to, to be displayed today. Uh, yep. The first time I've seen them in person, um, I've seen them online and the reproductions are great. Did you, you took the photos, eh? Um, so the, the detail's beautiful, but it's, it's. It's such a different experience, um, seeing them in person and how 3D they are, how careful the stitching is. [00:28:30] Um, yeah, that, so it's, it's incredible. Um, and I hope one day we get all of the blocks displayed. Um, but yeah. Yeah, because it feels. Yeah, a selection of of four is a really intimate experience, and you can talk to some of the, the particular panels in detail, um, but it still feels like a part of the whanau is missing. Yeah. But, um, yeah, one day, one day, [00:29:00] A And just finally, when you see the, the blocks displayed here today, uh, what's the feeling you get? It's quite overwhelming, I think, and, and as well, reading the, reading the information that's held about each of the blocks and finding out each story about each person and about the people that made it and. And, um, the people who have held it, there's, there's so many people, um, who are invested in the, in the process and, and represented by, and remembered by the quilt [00:29:30] that it's, um, it really, it really genuinely is a tear jerker, you know, like, I think, um, that, that's a terrible way to put it. But I, I just, I mean, like, there's, there's nothing quite so, um, hard hitting that I've seen in the collection here at Tippa that just instantly kind of, um, Brings a tear to eye. Really? Yeah. Um, for me, especially after Covid 19, where there, there were these easy comparisons [00:30:00] between the pandemic and hiv aids pandemic, um, was having this opportunity to display the quilts as kind of bringing that. Back to earth and saying, you know, the, yeah, these are, these are real people and this is not, these aren't just, you know, shapes and colors on, on fabric. These are the people through their whanau, through their friends lovers, uh, Actually present in the, the white is, is present in the quilt. Um, [00:30:30] which is why even in the wording around the event using, uh, the word koga, um, is about connecting in with those people again. Um, yeah. Mm-hmm. Kiara, my name is Stephanie Gibson. I'm a history curator here at Puffer. In Wellington and we are in one of our big exhibition spaces where we have laid out four of the New Zealand AIDS Memorial quilt today for an event. And can you tell me about the quilt we're standing [00:31:00] in front of? So we're in front of a block that features eight panels, which each represent one person who passed from aids, and I think they date from about 1989 to 1991. And each panel is named. Sometimes it's just a first name. Sometimes it's a full name with their birth and death dates. It's a real mix, and some are painted, some are stitched, some are [00:31:30] collaged. Some are very fine embroidery. So it's a real mix of imagery and textile art. Why was it important for Tepa to have this event today? So, 2023 marks the 40th anniversary of the first person in New Zealand to contract aids or hiv aids. So we are marking that 40th anniversary. It's also pride here in Wellington Pride Week. Uh, also [00:32:00] it's a wonderful opportunity to work in partnership with Ligans to have this event. Um, there's a lot of. Interest and love for the quilt, and it's wonderful to be able to bring it out when we can, when we feel that, that people really want to see it, and we know that they get a lot of meaning from it. The quilts have been with, uh, with the guardianship of Tappa for, for just over 10 years now. I can't believe though, that that 10 years has, has really [00:32:30] flown by. C Can you tell me, um, some of the, uh, the times the quilts have been on display in that time? So we've brought out one or two quilt blocks whenever people have asked us to, and people might range from school groups. Uh, there's a particular school that comes every few years that's studying homosexual law reform, and they, we always bring out one of the blocks for them, um, people that, uh, may be doing an art project. So we've had artists and, uh, people from lgbtq I [00:33:00] plus communities, people from health communities. We've had. All sorts of interest and people want to spend some time with a block or two, and then we'll bring them out specially for them. And we find it's a pretty incredible experience for everybody, for staff, and for our visitors. So when school groups see these quilts from 30, 40 years ago, uh, how do they react? Um, they're pretty shocked actually. I, it always never ceases to amaze me how emotional people are, no matter what age, what their [00:33:30] background, who they are, what their identity is. They're always almost stunned into silence. Uh, cuz they're faced with the materialization of grief and it's very powerful and it, the feeling never fades no matter how many times you see the quilt blocks. It always has that effect, and that was part of, its what I, what you might call soft activism, right from the very beginning. It was an activist statement to make a panel to memorialize and remember somebody whose life had been cut short by [00:34:00] aids. Very powerful statement to make. The, the grief and love that are put into the, the, the, the creation of the quilts, but also I guess the grief and love, uh, because these quilts have been all around the country. They've been onto to marae and to schools. And they've had such a life, haven't they? Yeah. Well, they had an incredible life before they came to Juppa. They might be out in the grass one day and a church hall the next. As you say. So they had a very diverse life. For many years. They would travel up and down the country [00:34:30] and hundreds of thousands of people saw them. But there did come a time where, um, new treatments came in and people no longer, um, sub fat dying from aids, they could actually live with hiv and less people died and less people were memorialized in this way. And it was time for the. Quilt to come somewhere safe and be permanently looked after in a, in a really safe environment. I mean, it is stunning that the quilt is in the national, you know, the National Museum of [00:35:00] Tiara, because there are numerous quilts around the world that don't have that. Um, That, that, that national kind of, uh, care, I guess. Um, why was it important for, to papa to become the guardian of the quilt? Because this is a nationally significant story. It was a nationally significant, um, epidemic or pandemic. Many, many people were affected. We needed to honor that history and this was an [00:35:30] incredible opportunity to collect an object that lives on. It actually is Tonga. It is a living Tonga, and we can actually care for and share it, and it's meaning continues to grow. That's the most powerful object you can collect. So even if it didn't, even, even if it didn't have that spirit about it, it would still be an important. National historical story to collect and tell in perpetuity to remind people, especially what we've just been through with Covid. [00:36:00] You know, these lessons, they're, they're, they're always relevant. So we have, I think in the collection there's around about 16 blocks, is that correct? Are are there other aspects of, uh, the AIDS Memorial Quilt that Papa has? So we have the archive of the quilt. Uh, I think it's about four meters, linear meters of paperwork and photographs of the quilt on display around the country. Uh, the stories in behind each panel are quite an incredible record. [00:36:30] Just for you personally, when you are looking at these, uh, quilt blocks, what, what, what does it make you feel and what's the feeling you get from it? I always feel sort of sad, happy. It's a really strange feeling. I feel it every time. It's sort of, I feel like I'm in the presence of greatness, but also of deep sorrow. So it's that feeling that all the love and care that was poured into these quilt blocks and panels, it gives that a chance for that person's life just to live on like a whisper [00:37:00] to people that they've never met many years later, like myself. But it just reminds me, they look at, they look out for me at the quilt and they remind me, you know, you've got to take care of yourself. You've got to be respectful and live life to the full. I love that idea of just a whisper. We were here. Yeah, absolutely. It's about visibility. Present material presence is really important and I think sometimes we forget it as we go online, increasingly go online. But a [00:37:30] physical, tangible reminder or memorial of a life well lived, or a life that ended in, you know, great sadness for many people, it's an incredibly powerful thing to be in front of. There's something that happens when you're with a physical memorial as opposed to a digital one. I do believe it's quite a different synergy. It is well worth experiencing. I'm here at the display of the AIDS [00:38:00] quilts, which many of, um, these quilts bring to life bring to my mind the people I knew who died. In the, predominantly in the 1990s, 19 late 1980s, 1990s era, people like Tom o Donahue, whom I worked very closely with, and our fledgling days as, as organizations who were [00:38:30] responding to HIV and aids, working with our peers and our communities, you know, on issues like stigma and discrimination, basic things like. Getting condoms out to sex workers who were criminalized at the time. Um, you know, just, it, it, it's so evocative to be here, to see these quilts, to hear these stories, to have people tap you on the elbow and say, do you remember when we sat on the National Council on AIDS in 1988 [00:39:00] together, just really evocative. And am I right in thinking that, uh, NZ PC kind of grew out of that need for kind of, um, safer sex practices, aids awareness? We came together as an organization in that era. We had other issues that were complimentary to the concerns about hiv. We were obviously concerned about. Been arrested by the police, um, having our condoms [00:39:30] counted, um, in, in practice, you know, and used as circumstantial evidence at a, at a time when we were combating HIV and trying to generate awareness, um, of our own struggles, you know, and that criminalized environment, but also building educative. Um, support amongst those of us in our communities, sex worker communities. So, so did it even get down to that level where police [00:40:00] would count the number of condoms you actually had on person? Well, that was the fair. And people could recollect photographs being taken, and we'd come out of our massage parlors with our condoms wrapped up in tissues and put them into rubbish bags that had to be carried off site quite quickly to avoid having them hanging around just in case. The police would come in and they did come in undercover pretending to [00:40:30] be our clients and this was the kind of evidence that they would be looking for. It just seems such a, a different country and, and I guess New Zealand was a different country back in the eighties. Yeah. You know, these were rich times as well in terms of bringing communities together that necessarily. Needed to be together. You know, we were perceived as being the ones at risk. The, you know, we were perceived as being the [00:41:00] vectors of transmission. Um, but in truth, I think we were the leaders, you know, we were the champions of public health and we brought all these sorts of issues to the fore, and we created legislation that supported the right. Of all sorts and benefited the nation as a whole. When you look around today at these blocks from the New Zealand AIDS Memorial Quilt, what, what, what feelings do you have? [00:41:30] Well, good feelings, you know, you know, when I, I look at Tom Madonna, who's quilt and I, I just reflect on the great times that we had and you know, we would be meeting with ministers of the Crown and talking about our issues. Passionately. I mean, we knew we were going to lose good friends to HIV and aids and, but you know, I look at Tom's quilt, for example, and there's the telephone. We had the landline that we shared as an organization and, you know, [00:42:00] the wine glasses, lots of wine was drunk. We, you know, the, the, the, um, little dogs that he walked and just so, um, rich with memories. But I mean, they should be here with us today in the flesh. That wasn't possible at the time. You know, anyone living with HIV today will tell you that they look forward to a long life. Um, so there were poignant times through that, through that era when the quilts meant so. As Chanel [00:42:30] said today, you know, she said, you know, they, they captured our love. Chanel also mentioned today about the passing of Georgina Bayer, and uh, I'm wondering, do, do you have any, um, kind of the first memories of, of meeting Georgina? Well, Georgina was, uh, certainly you could never meet Georgina. Once and forget. And so we spent many times with Georgina, both on a, um, you know, sitting on [00:43:00] podium sharing podiums and platforms and speaking about different issues as well as, you know, the hard grafting of creating. Prostitution law reform and private times as well. You know, just down times and Georgina up until, you know, recent times, you know, like she's always been alongside our community would respond if we asked her to come to events and share [00:43:30] with us. You know, the sex worker Pride Day for instance, you know, was something that Georgina. Um, spent time with us a couple of years ago and yeah, it's, it's been very sad and somewhat shocking to realize that someone like Georgina has passed. Um, but we'll carry her. With our memories. Can you describe her personality? Oh, she was, she was quite monstrous on [00:44:00] occasions and she was, you know, she was outrageous and strong and, you know, also, um, empathetic sec. Considered unpredictable. What do you think Georgina's legacy will be? Gosh, don't be afraid. You know, like I think she, she had had [00:44:30] to really come out. In so many different ways. I mean, she was forced out as well in terms of her sex work, um, related activities. She was not comfortable in that space. Um, she was very angry about, um, having, being a sex worker, I think, you know, so she was enriched with so many different experiences that benefit us all.[00:45:00] She articulated extremely well those experiences and why they shouldn't happen to other people. You know, that good law, good supportive response in terms of human rights would, um, you know, is a way forward and yeah, I think, uh, her legacy is multifaceted like Georgina.[00:45:30] So it's uh, 10th of March, 2023, and there's just been an event which is looking at, um, commemorating the, um, the AIDS as has played out in New Zealand. And central to that has been a display of some of the quilts that have been produced. So there was, uh, there's been, um, a, uh, an event in at Papa, the National Museum, and it's been attended by, um, community. And it's been the community [00:46:00] of our nation really. And um, and we've heard from speakers, some who, who were intimately involved with the period when the first of the quilts were made and other people who are living with HIV V at the moment talking about the experiences of the current time. And right before us is Ian's quilt. Yeah. Quite hard to look at even after this time. The um, It's so time has damaged [00:46:30] it so much, you know? Um, and yet his face is still perfectly pure, perfectly preserved. And that's because I, I painted it, I just painted his portrait with dry brush with no underpainting. It's straight onto the fabric. So the Calico is the warmth behind the, the face. But the rest of it, I'd put undercoat on, and of course it's cracked, but uh, yeah, it's strange to see something so beautiful. I'd forgotten how beautiful it was. Yeah, I [00:47:00] sounds, sounds a little egotistical. I don't mean it like that. I mean, it just, it's beautiful in your heart to see somebody who you love. And they're still the same way you painted them. You were speaking earlier on stage to the, um, the, the people in the, um, the room, in the audience. What is, how easy or how hard is that for you to, to get up there and, and, and talk about such personal things? I'm shy. My, my nature [00:47:30] is that I'm shy. Um, and I am, I worry, I get worried. It's hard for me to keep my emotions under control. If I'm talking about something I love, I, if I'm talking about something political, it's fine. But where it's personal, it's quite hard. I. So, um, I think that's why I was a bit faulting that I, I sometimes had to stop a wee bit, but it was hugely, uh, comforting to hear other people going through the same thing. And then I thought, so people trust this world, this [00:48:00] world of this moment and here enough to be able to do that. And um, so, um, you know, Ian was very strong, very strong person. Um, and, uh, I, I thought for a moment, oh, well I wonder what you'd make of this now, all these years later, and here, I mean, we talked back then about marrying as as a protest. Of course, you wouldn't have been allowed to do it and just go. You know, fuck people married, a lot of these people in this room are married now, mate. [00:48:30] You know? So it was, um, it's, it's funny because I think the quilt, I guess because it's one of the few that's pictorial, that the presence of the past is immediate there in the moment that it froze and it's here right now. So it's quite hard. When I was looking at it up on the, the quilt on the screen when it was projected, it was quite confronting, you know, because there's no symbolism to act as an intermediary. It's just very present. And how [00:49:00] significant to now be cared for by the National Museum? Who would've thought it, you know, like really, um, you, you, you realize we were pariahs. There's no other word for it. We were fucking pariahs and, um, We didn't even have a, we weren't even, we weren't allowed to say the names of what had killed us at our funerals. You know, we weren't allowed to do those things. It just, [00:49:30] and to have the National Museum now doing this, and you go, it's a little bit like marriage in the future. From back then, but then I stand here now and I go and what might 40 years be? Might we be in a world where you don't have to come out? Might might being queer be the same as being left-handed. I. You know, and so we hope into the future, I guess, from it, and it's, it's wonderful to see so many people behind this organizing here from new [00:50:00] generations coming through. And you just go, that's, um, we owe them a great debt too. The debt is not one way with an older, the younger generation being a debtor to an older generation, it's a community being indebted to itself through all its generations. As they make stuff and enable stuff, you recited, uh, an incredibly moving, um, Paul. [00:50:30] It, uh, it's, oh dear. I'm gonna do I start telling you to, um, it's one of the few poems that can break my heart. You know, it's such, so, such a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's such a beautiful modest, um, I, I mean, I, I, I can get, it's funny how something so small can break you, you know? So it's nothing as majestic as a, you know, [00:51:00] 90 minute feature film or, or an opera. It's a few lines that talk about cloth. And love and what will you give in the name of love? And uh, and it's really strange cuz I look at the quilt and you can't read it anymore. It's not discernible, it's, it's cracked. And to know that it was, it's, it is actually underneath there still, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's, are you able to recite it now? [00:51:30] Yeah. So it's, um, it's Yates and it's, um, it's got another name now, but its original name was Adair, wishes for the Cloths of Heaven and, and a was a, the god of death. And fire and I, that's beautiful. Cause it was spirit and, and also death. And uh, I always thought it was about the quilt. I thought the quilts was, it, it fitted, it said, um, had I the heavens and embroidered [00:52:00] cloth and wrought with gold and silver, light, the blue and the dim. And the dark cloths of night and light and half light, I would spread the cloths under your feet. But I being poor, I have only my dreams and I have spread my dreams under your feet tread softly because he tread on my dreams.[00:52:30] . IRN: 3594 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/rally_for_trans_acceptance_and_reproductive_rights.html ATL REF: OHDL-004710 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093100 TITLE: Rally for Trans acceptance and reproductive rights USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Adaire Hannah; Alice Simpson; Benjamin Aulakh; Bill Logan; Elle Brocherie; Hannah Blake; Kerryn Pollock; Leliel Trethowen; Mx. Well; Pippa Sanderson; Richa Sharma; Tiaki Sharp; Tristan-Cordelia INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 1970s; 1980s; 2020s; Action Zealandia; Adaire Hannah; Alice Simpson; Aotearoa New Zealand; Auckland; Australia; Benjamin Aulakh; Bill Logan; Brian Tamaki; COVID-19 anti mandate protest; Christchurch terror attack (2019); Civic Square/Te Ngākau; David Gendall; Destiny Church; Elle Brocherie; Fired Up Stilettos; Georgina Beyer; Hamilton; Hannah Blake; Homosexual Law Reform Act (1986); India; International Bolshevik Tendency; Islam; Islamophobia; Jeff Whittington; Kerryn Pollock; Leliel Trethowen; Lesbian Action for Visbility Aotearoa (LAVA); Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health; Marama Davidson; Marxism; Mein Kampf (book); Melbourne; Michael Wood; Muslims; Mx. Well; Māori Wardens; National Socialist Network (NSN); Nazism; Neo-Nazism; New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (CTU); Palmerston North; Pauline Hanson; Peter Ellis; Pippa Sanderson; Posie Parker; Pōneke Anti-Fascist Coalition; Queer Endurance/Defiance; Richa Sharma; Salvation Army; Sex Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF); Te Herenga Waka - Victoria University of Wellington; Te Whatu Ora Health (public health); Tiaki Sharp; Tommy Robinson; Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism (TERF); Tristan-Cordelia; United Kingdom; Wellington; Wellington High School; abortion; activism; alt-right; anti-abortion; bathrooms; bigotry; chant; church; communism; far-right politics; fascism; fear; feminism; free speech; gay; gender; gender affirming healthcare; gender dysphoria; gender identity; hate; hate group; hate speech; health rights; homophobia; homosexual law reform; hope; love; meat works; mental health; non-binary; oppression; partition of India; protest; public toilet; queer; queer joy; reproductive rights; revolution; sex work; sexual abuse; signs; solidarity; straight; stripper rights; striptease; testosterone (T); trans; trans joy; trans man; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; transphobic violence; unionist; unions; women's liberation movement; women's rights; women's space; worker's rights DATE: 26 March 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Civic Square/Te Ngākau, Wellington CONTEXT: Audio from the rally held on Sunday 26 March 2023 in Civic Square, Wellington. Originally the rally was to oppose a planned rally by Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (a. k. a. Posie Parker) in the same space. However after large-scale opposition to her event in Auckland the day before, Parker left New Zealand immediately. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: I'm Lily Ultra. I'm a trans woman living, living in Nui Art Tara. I'm here with Q E D and Poky Antifascist Coalition. We are here to run a trans rights and reproductive rights rally. Originally we were planning to counter-protest Posy Parks rally, but since she's not coming, we're just gonna have a great big, joyous celebration of trans rights and women's rights. Have a great big queer old party, and I saw online that you are wanting this to be the biggest rally in New [00:00:30] Zealand's history yet Yes, the more the merrier. We've got a lot. I, while Posy not coming as excellent, we do still have a lot of issues that need working on in New Zealand, so everyone that wants to be involved come on down and have fun. When you saw that event in Auckland, uh, yesterday, online and on tv, what did you think? I was really impressed to see how large a crowd was there and how well restrained they were. Um, what do you expect when you get a crowd that big, that angry in one place? [00:01:00] And yeah, we're just glad Poey Parker has left the country. Would you have any words to say to Poey, given that she's not here today? Fuck off and stay fucked off. You do not speak for all women. I think Auckland made that very clear. What, what do you, do you have any, um, comments say in terms of the state's response? So things like Michael Wood, uh, allowing her to come into New Zealand and, and also, uh, justice Del who, uh, didn't stop her coming in the, uh, or didn't stop her speaking.[00:01:30] I think that represents cowardice on the face of immigration New Zealand, it's very clear that her speech posed a threat to the public. However, it also demonstrates the power of queer people and allies working in solidarity to do what the government did not have the balls to do. How many people are you expecting here today? We don't have a completely firm grip on the numbers, but we're expecting thousands over 2000 easily. And. When you think about that and you [00:02:00] think about the, the such a positive response for rainbow trans rights in Wellington, how does that make you feel? It's just awesome, and that's one of the many things that makes me feel real joy in being a trans woman. Uh, so I'm Hannah Blake or ex fund feminists from Twitter. Uh, we are in the bridge area of Wellington. I'm sorry, I'm from Palmy. And, um, we are here to support trans rights and stand up against hate. So did you travel down specifically from Palmerston for this? [00:02:30] Yeah, I sure did. So why was it important for you to be here today? Well, I think it's really important, uh, to show people that actually our country is inclusive and we don't accept bigotry or hatred here. So, uh, this is in response to the Poy Parker visit, which was, um, called off yesterday in Auckland. Um, I, I, I wasn't there and I saw the footage online, but, um, can you describe what it was like? I mean, if you'd seen the footage? Yeah. Like you have only seen the footage. Um, but honestly I saw a [00:03:00] whole bunch of people there to celebrate honestly, community joy and to show people who hold exclusion views that they're not welcome. Uh, given that Posy is not here today, who are supposed to be, uh, speaking to a different, uh, group here in Civic Square, is there anything that you would want to say to Posy? There's nothing I would like to say to Poey in particular. I would actually prefer to address the people who hold views like Poy does in our Tero and say that they're not acceptable and why does society [00:03:30] won't stand for it. What about, do you have anything to say to people like, say Michael Woods, who, who uh, agreed that she should come into New Zealand? I. I don't know the ins and outs of parliamentary process. I do think from what I read about the judicial decision, that he could have made a better decision. And I hope that Ireland takes, um, takes a look at our example and goes, actually we won't let her in. Cuz I think that's what he should have [00:04:00] decided. What's the feeling being in Palmerston North about this whole this, this whole thing with Posy Parker? Look, uh, I don't, can't speak for all of Palmy from, but the people that I've talked to, the members of the public that, uh, commented on my rainbow atti here have generally been very supportive. Okay. I, I'm Bill, bill Logan, and I'm here, uh, right at the beginning of a demonstration in favor of t transgender rights. Uh, and that's, uh, in the [00:04:30] city square in, in, in Wellington. Uh, and it had been called for by, um, posy Parker, who's a anti-trans, nasty sort of person. But she's not showing apparently. No, I have a feeling she's on a plane or she might have even got off the plane in, in the UK back there. Uh, because yesterday in Auckland there was some, uh, quite, uh, heated scenes in the, in the park. Yeah, I mean, if you're going to do, say the [00:05:00] kinds of things that Posy Parker says, you've got to expect that the people who are most affected are going to feel very, very strongly about it. And she's not a savory character. She's been a associated with, uh, with fascist. She might not be a fascist personally, but she certainly give said, approving things about fascists. She certainly, uh, refused to reject the support of fascists. Um, this is a, a nasty person. [00:05:30] You've been an activist for, uh, many decades now, and you were right at the forefront of homosexual law reform in 85 and 86. When you see protests like yesterday or, or speaking engagement where poy kind of just rocks people up, I mean, what do you think? Well, it's interesting. The issues seem to have moved on a little. Um, and perhaps things that we did 30, 40 years ago have created a climate in which, uh, it's possible to take [00:06:00] on issues, which would've been impossible back then. And it, so that's good. And it's also nice to see young people get a sense of their power and their capacity to change their world. Um, yeah. So in some ways it's quite gratifying, but it's also worrying because it, it shows how, uh, the reforms and the progress we've made, uh, is so fragile and reversible. Given that Posey is not here today, is there anything that you would want to say to her? I [00:06:30] don't have anything at all to say to Poey Parker, what about the, uh, the, the institutions, the state mechanisms that allowed Poey into New Zealand? Do you have any comment about, say Michael Wood or Justice Kendall? Not really. Uh, I don't think that it makes any sense for us to depend on the state to deal with our problems. Uh, I think that we have got to deal with the opponents, that we have ourselves with our own power. And I think it's good when we can [00:07:00] do that for ourselves rather than, uh, uh, depending on the patronage of Big Brother. Uh, yeah, not my way. My name's Amundi. I, you know, go to university. I work in the city and I just think that the rhetoric that this woman is spewing is. Egregious and irresponsible and so harmful, and I don't want anyone to think that I'd ever be okay with anyone saying anything like that in my city. Yeah. Did you see, uh, the footage from last night [00:07:30] on TV or on the internet? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I saw it, yeah. Online quite a bit. Yeah. And, and what did you feel. Um, I mean, I felt a lot of pride. I think that the community up in Auckland did a great job of showing what, um, you know, what our community thinks. I think that tfs, like Posy Parker and all these others, they love to trade in fear and to present themselves as a silent majority. But what we've shown in Auckland and hopefully in Wellington today is that the, what the real majority thinks, and which is that we love our trans van, [00:08:00] given that Poy can't be here today or is not here today. I mean, she could be, but she's not. Thank God. Um, is, is there anything that you would like to say to her? Yeah, well, I think that she calls herself a feminist and says that she represents women, but really what she's talking about is reducing the idea of womanhood right down to our sort of reproductive capability, which is, I would think, the antithesis of feminism at all. So yeah, I tell her to fuck off. So I'm a communication specialist and I live here in Wellington, and the main reason I'm here is that there's just no room for any [00:08:30] kind of discrimination of any kind. I mean, I'm an introvert. I don't have a lot to do with most people, but the one thing I will stand up for and I will protest about is everybody has a right to decide how they live their lives. And I've never had or seen any trans person causing anybody else any issues or any trouble. But growing up in the uk, the kinds of people who do cause trouble are people like Poy Parker, who think that they've got a right to go around, identify with members of the alt-right, Nazis and white supremacists, and think that they. Can come here and tell people how they should live their [00:09:00] lives, when actually, you know, that kind of to intolerance and hatred has no place in this country and it's not welcome when you see Posy Parker and in response to her, um, both in Australia and New Zealand. Um, and what, what goes through your mind? Look, I think unfortunately our government had the opportunity, you know, the minister had the discretion to stand up and say, we're not gonna let her in. Look, you know, you look at her tweets, um, promoting people like Tommy Robinson and that kind of Islamophobia, you know, marching through [00:09:30] Melbourne with Nazis. We know what she stands for. We know who she is and we know what she's about. That's really, really clear. So the minister had all of the ammunition he needed to be able to say, actually we're not gonna let a dangerous Nazi trans phobe into the country like that. He chose not to. So unfortunately, as is the case, a lot of the time it's up to ordinary New Zealand just to stand up and go, no, that's not okay. Posy Parker says she stands for women. We'll look at all the women yesterday who were there saying actually she doesn't stand for them. She doesn't stand for women. She stands for hatred and bigotry and transphobia and white [00:10:00] supremacy, and that has no place here. So Poey was due to give her an event here today in Wellington, but is no longer, uh, here. I think she's actually back in the uk. Uh, is there anything you'd like to say to Poey? Don't come back. Don't ever come back here again. You know, like she said on Twitter, New Zealand is the most dangerous place I've ever seen. Well, look at this protest today. We've got people of all genders, all creeds, all colors, happy together, united. Your kind of hatred. It's clear from this gathering here today and yesterday. Your kind of [00:10:30] hatred is not welcome here. So if you think New Zealand's the most dangerous country you've ever been to, okay, well that's fine. You are wrong. But don't come back here. You stay in the uk, you keep your hatred overseas. We don't need you to come back here again. Hi, I am El Shui. I'm a member of Queer Endurance Defiance. We are standing on the steps above Civic Square, uh, where we are holding a valley for trans acceptance and reproductive rights today on Sunday, the 26th of March. Can you just paint a picture for me of, of what you can see?[00:11:00] Yeah. So, um, it's about 1:00 PM uh, lovely day, maybe, uh, Hans or so people standing around at the moment, were expecting a lot more, but, um, the Valley is not scheduled to start for half an hour. There is music, people dancing, holding banners and flags. Um, I would say a very, um, celebratory atmosphere right now. So today follows, um, quite heated confrontations in Auckland yesterday. Did you see that online and, and what, what, what do you think of that? Yeah, we've been, um, [00:11:30] following that online, um, I guess I would really, I would really like to stress that, um, obviously the event in Auckland yesterday was in response to, um, uh, UK activist anti trans rights campaigner, anti woman's rights campaigner with links to the far right. Um, Kelly j Keen, aka Poy Parker. Um, the narrative that. She and her group, um, [00:12:00] like to spin is that they have, uh, just huge support around the world that, uh, the trans rights movement is some kind of fringe thing, silencing women's voices, what we have seen in Auckland yesterday, and what we will see here today is that is not true. Uh, Kelly j Keenan's speaking event drew about, uh, 70 attendees from what we heard. Um, many of them were representatives of the local faul, right? There were fascists present. Meanwhile, uh, the pro Trans rights, pro woman's rights, [00:12:30] Side, which organized in Auckland drew a crowd of thousands. And that is really what I would like to stress, that thousands of Aucklands showed up on the day to stand for queer rights, trans rights, and women's rights. When you saw that footage online, how did it make you feel? So proud. Very proud of, um, of our comrad Up in Auckland. Yeah. Yep. And so today, posy was supposed to speak here in Wellington. She's not here, she's actually left the country. Uh, is there anything you you'd like to say to Poey? Um, I can't think of much to be honest. Good [00:13:00] riddance, maybe. Um, hope you enjoyed your day. Hope you, um, uh, enjoyed some nice tomato soup. Yeah. So today was supposed to be in response to that, uh, that, that, that rally, but it's, it's turned into something different, hasn't it? Yeah. Um, it will be a different event here today from what we planned. Uh, we had been, uh, expecting to oppose, uh, Kelly j Keen's planned speaking event in Wellington, but Auckland did that so well. We don't need to. So we will be [00:13:30] having a celebration, uh, of that win and a valley, uh, for trans rights for women's rights, uh, in New Zealand, which are by no means one and by no means secure. So yeah, we will be celebrating our wins and starting to fight for more. Um, I'm Nim, I'm from the Wellington region as well, and we are here in Wellington to support our trans community and support women's abortion rights. Um, just spread the love for some [00:14:00] particularly nasty folks who have come to New Zealand to spread words that we do not agree with. And you've, you've got some, um, signs today. What, what do the signs say? Um, j trans writer, human rights and support your sisters, not just your sisters. Sisters being c i s t e r S. So why was it important for you to be here today? Um, my partner is actually transgender. I've been with her since the beginning of her journey, and I think it is so, so important to be able to show support. These people [00:14:30] deserve to be able to go about their lives without being affected by nasty opinions or views. There were some nasty opinions and views that I saw on TV and on the internet last night. It was pretty, pretty ghastly. What did, did you see him and what did you think? Yeah, I saw some pretty nasty stuff from the, from the protests. I am glad that she has left. Uh, I'm so excited for that. Go New Zealand. We do not want that here, uh, because Poey can't be here today. Um, is there [00:15:00] anything that you would say to her if you had the chance? We don't welcome your views here. Uh, I'm Z and I'm at the counter protest for the trans rights rally. And what can you see in front of us? Um, All the L G B T people here to support the counter protest. There are quite a few signs and flags. Could you just tell me what some of the signs you've got with you? Um, my one says, uh, the F and TURF stands for fascist. [00:15:30] Um, your, uh, there's also protect trans people and Nazi turfs. Fuck off. And just behind us, we've got stuff written on the W walls. Are you, are you able to read us some of, some of what's here? Yep. Uh, trans lives matter. Why waste your energy hating us? Um, no retreat from the right to choose, protect abortion rights. So why was it important for for you to be here today? Because trans rights are human rights. [00:16:00] End of story. Oh, what you can see in front of you is a collection of, uh, what we are going to be counter protestors to the, uh, trans, uh, bigot, uh, POY Parker. Uh, however, she was humiliated and had to leave the country. So now it is a celebration of, uh, trans pride and a protest for, uh, trans rights as well as bodily autonomy and just a show of solidarity amongst, uh, the entire, um, queer spectrum. There are a lot of flags and signs around. Can you just read some of the signs out? Yeah, of course. So we've got teachers with pride over there, which is great. [00:16:30] Um, defend abortion rights. Very important, especially with the overturning Roe Wade last year. Um, acceptance saves lives and hate kills. I think that's very, very important. Mm-hmm. Um, we've got q e d up on the stairs up there. Uh, militant trade union struggles. As well. I can't read the rest of that sign, but that's cause my vision is terrible. Um, militant trade unions struggle against trans discrimination. So I'll say that one more time. Militant trade unions struggle against trans discrimination. Thank you. Cause trans rights is of course, also worker's rights. And, um, worker [00:17:00] solidarity is needed now more than ever. Can you describe the feeling today? Oh, the feeling today, um, it's incredibly positive. It was, it's been an incredibly tough time. I mean, I'm transgender myself, I'm non-binary. It's been a really tough week. Uh, we saw what was happening in Melbourne, uh, with the neo Nazis coming out in support of Posy Parker and knowing that she was coming here, we were all very, uh, afraid and there was a lot of despair, and especially that she was allowed into the country. But, um, now that she's gone, this is, uh, I, I would say a rare victory for, uh, trans people, for all trans people to come together and realize that and, and see, uh, [00:17:30] bigotry being chased away from our country. So, uh, what we are seeing and feeling here, I say, is a lot of celebration, uh, a feeling of triumph and a real feeling of solidarity, I would say. Yeah, I completely agree with him. Um, as a cis man, I think that's all I'm gonna say on the subjects, but, um, I can't imagine how difficult it's been for the trans community this week. I've seen it in glimpses with Maxwell this week. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, just. A very, a very different feeling to what a lot of people were expecting, but I think that's a positive thing. Did, did, did, did either of you see the footage [00:18:00] from Auckland, uh, last night? Oh, yes. No. I, I watched the whole thing. I watched the whole thing. I, because, um, when, when it was happening, um, I remember as soon as it started, I watched place Parker's livestream. I was, I was so nervous. I knew a lot of friends that were gonna be at that protest. Um, and there was a lot of feeling, uh, very similar to the mandate protest that, uh, were, uh, happening last year as well. Um, and so there was a lot of fear about what similar things would happen. And I watched the whole thing. It was so exciting to see thousands of people turning out, uh, to defend trans rights, to defend against obvious bigotry, obvious anti-trans sentiment, and [00:18:30] demonstrate with their free speech. I know some people are saying that someone was robbed a free speech, protest is free speech, can't protest this free speech. It's all free speech. You can't be annoyed that your free speech was protested with free speech. That's all. It's all free speech. It's all together. Um, It was absolutely beautiful to watch. And um, frankly, anyone that aligns themselves with neo-Nazis is willing to, um, try to ghost, um, what's, what's, what's the word for gaslight? Sorry? Gaslight people into thinking that the rat trans sentiment is coached in feminism, uh, deserves that kind of humiliation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's exactly that. And the other thing I'd like to add is that, [00:19:00] um, free speech doesn't necessarily mean we have to listen, so we're just gonna drone you out. And especially if you are preaching that big, that hate like you do. Yeah. Like Posty Parker is also, do we, is it free speech or freedom expression, Jake? Uh, well, the actual right in New Zealand is actually freedom of expression. And anyone who's trying to stand on a platform of only free speech is really just importing that from America. It has no basis in our, um, our legislation because the right is freedom of expression and it really pisses me off. And people don't get that right. Jack knows a lot about the law. [00:19:30] So, uh, poey, I, I have a feeling is on a plane or maybe it's got off a plane back in the UK now. So isn't here today. Yes. Is there something that you would like to say to her? Oh, uh, I guess I would quote the late great Georgina Byer. I'm not afraid to look you in the eye, but apparently you are. Uh, and you had to run away. Um, we, there is no place anywhere for your anti-trans bigotry. The world can see what you are doing. We know that you are trying to hide your genocidal remarks behind a, a smokescreen of feminism. [00:20:00] And you even say yourself, you're not a feminist. Um, you're a garbage person. Goodbye. There's nothing more misogynistic than upholding the gender Binary. Fuck off. Yes. Uh, well, I'm a longtime leftist. Um, one of the things that radicalized me back in the day was the homosexual law reform. I was about 16, um, straight. But, uh, I went to Wellington High School, which has got a very progressive attitude and especially now with the trans kids there. And, um, it did back then as well. I think [00:20:30] I, the homosexual law reform. It was so obvious to me. I mean, I, my parents had gay flatmates when I was a little, little baby. And, um, I mean, it is, it's sometimes hard to put your finger on, you know, the rightness of it. But the wrongness of, uh, the homosexuality being illegal was just outrageous. And, um, the same moral apparent arguments that we have today happened back then. Uh, gays were a danger to children. All that bloody nonsense. [00:21:00] Um, statistics as people keep on emphasizing, uh, completely in the other direction. There are other places to look, that sort of thing. And, um, Yeah, so I'm here because an injury to one is an injury to all, basically. Can you just look out and describe what you can see, uh, in front of us there's about 600 people I think. Um, we're looking down on the civic square, um, and it's, you know, obviously a [00:21:30] rainbow of flags and a rainbow of people. I see a bunch of orange vests because of course we need to be concerned about fascists or, you know, destiny types turning up. Uh, I apparently missed out on some of the headlines from Auckland yesterday. Um, so I'm told that there were fascists, or at least traditional Catholics of the, I presume the Society for Protection of Unborn Children type may have been there. [00:22:00] Um, so, you know, we have to look out. There's a lot of entrances here. Um, and, and there's, there's a lot more people coming in at the moment, isn't there? Uh, there are, yeah. Um, so the Cuba Duper Festival is over there. I'm sure people will just transition from one event to the other. This is scheduled for one 30 and, uh, I think we still have a few minutes. Uh, now the drums start up and all the things that make an old protest or regret lose their voice. It happens to be very easily. I tend to shake my fist rather [00:22:30] than shout. This is Lely Hor Transwoman. She, her pronouns from T Tara. I'm here with Q E D organizing the rally for Trans Rights and Reproductive Rights, and we have got a massive crowd forming up. For the start, people are still streaming in by the hundreds. It's gotta be at least a thousand people, maybe more already here. And I'm starting to worry whether the civic square is gonna be big enough for us all. What an amazing feeling. [00:23:00] Oh, it's fantastic. Such a huge outpouring of support from all across Teang, Tara. It's awesome. The people of all ages, all colors, all walks of life are here. We've got a drum crew doing some really cool stuff right now. You can probably hear on the recording and I've heard there may be a brass band show up. What? Salvation Army? Uh, probably not them. I can't say for sure who it will be or if they're coming, but we're just hoping for a real good party [00:23:30] now. My name is Tristan [00:24:00] Cordelia. I am a trans woman, and I'm not ashamed to say that we're gathered here today in solidarity against hatred. Someone tried to come from outside our community to stir up hatred against trans people, against women, against Muslims, against people of color. The English transphobic agitator. Kelly j Kean calls herself Posy [00:24:30] Parker, and claims to be defending cis woman against trans women while simultaneously undermining the right to abortion. She preaches Islamophobia and hides behind Neo-Nazi militia. Thus proving once and for all that some of the turfs, that workforces are indeed the same. The burn crosses Auckland refused to let her speak, and she ran [00:25:00] home with her tail between her legs, so, So thank you, Tam, because what was going to be quite a confrontational rally here has turned into a party.[00:25:30] This rally for transgender and reproductive rights has been organized by the leftist, queer and trans group. Queer Endurance for Defiance. They set, they set up a similar rally two years ago. The last time transphobic agitators came to our town to try and spread hate. We drown them out then, and we will drown them out now.[00:26:00] So today we're going to make ourselves heard and we are going to drown out hatred with our otha. The Posy Parkers of the world would like nothing more than to divide us. Rich Wright haters wants cis woman to fair trans woman. They want Muslims to fair gaze. They want queers to fair people of color and thus silence us. But they can only keep us down. If they can keep us divided. They fair the love that our unity has ignited. They would [00:26:30] murder one of us and blame it on the other, but we see through the lies that they cower behind. For cover, let us stand shoulder to shoulder and shout. Love, not hate, love, not hate, love.[00:27:00] This color here speaks to the Kopa. We want to establish here uniting in our diversity and building strength together.[00:27:30] We're going to hand over to our speakers. Now we have five scheduled speakers. First up, Ava [00:28:00] Kyo. Coto. Can you all hear me at the back there? Nice. My name is Vera Ashbourne and I am a supporter of the International Bolshevik Tendency, a communist organization fighting for workers power, an roa and the world. As a member of Q E D, I helped set up this rally for trans acceptance and, and reproductive rights, and [00:28:30] it was a great privilege. And I am also a trans woman, and it is with these, it is with these three voices that I speak to you today. When we started organizing this, we thought we'd get maybe a hundred. You have turned up in thousands. Thank you all for sharing your strength and your aroha with us. [00:29:00] I'm particularly heartened by the support from the unions who gave us so much help and promotion. I am, I say again proudly a communist. And as you can imagine, the organized working class is very near and dear to me. It warms my heart to see union banners flying over a trans liberation rally. Some people say that transphobia is not a working class issue, [00:29:30] that working class people don't have time for this gender stuff that workers don't or shouldn't care about. Trans people, and now we can say bollocks to that the workers about ROA are standing up. I'm very glad to see you because you are the best hope for queer people and all oppressed people everywhere. She might be gone driven off by our comrades in Auckland. [00:30:00] But Kelly J. Kane and the global rise of transphobia and the far right are only a symptom of a festering rot in society, not just here, but around the world. That illness is the decay of the capitalist system, and as we head for further and deeper economic crisis, there will be more and worse. Like her only you can stop them keen claims to fight for. For women, this is a lie. She calls for under [00:30:30] sixteens to be denied birth control or abortion. Her tour was funded by cpac, a major coalition of American far right groups that fought long and hard to overturn Roe v. Wade and now demand the elimination of transgenderism in a, in Australia and Auckland. She was joined by a who's who of the misogynist, far right. Pauline [00:31:00] Hanson, ki Smith, Evie Ya. Brian Toke. Yeah, I thought that won't get you up in Melbourne. She let an actual fascist mob join her rally unopposed. The banner those Nazis held was simply a more honest expression of the turf program, smearing trans people, particularly trans women as dangerous perverts who must be [00:31:30] exterminated turfs, stand with fascists, the greatest enemies of women on earth because they share a common goal in driving trans people out of public life. Women who oppose them though get beaten by cops or rammed with motorcycles to applause from Keen's. Crowd turfs don't give a shit about women, they just want to oppress trans people. Q E D was founded on the principle that we [00:32:00] can't rely on the existing state or the center left to keep us safe. That only collective struggle can keep reactionary scum like Keen at bay. We saw that in Auckland yesterday. Give them a cheer. Give Auckland a cheer. Struggle. Struggle works. Take the lesson[00:32:30] on Friday. The news broke that the Ministry of Health deliberately concealed information that puberty blockers are safe and reversible information. It knows to be true because it was afraid of backlash from the turf lobby. Shame. A state that throws us under the bus over angry letters, sure as hell won't keep us safe from fascist mobs. The only [00:33:00] force to ever stop fascism before it can take power is the organized working class in militant struggle only. We collectively, through our own power and our own organizations can keep us safe. But even here, the state, the state ties our hands. New Zealand has some of the harshest antis strike laws in the world. Collective action has been almost entirely banned since the nineties. Each success of government, [00:33:30] national, or labor led has upheld those draconian laws. They don't want us to fight and they won't fight for us. Workers of ROA demand the right to strike so that in 10 years time when the government tries to ban trans kids in our schools, you can shut down the education system until they give in so that if fascists try to seize control, you can close the entire economy to stop them. [00:34:00] You have that power. It can be done. It has been done before. I know that the global rise of hate can seem inevitable, but it is not. You are not powerless. We are not powerless. We can fight and we can win. Workers. The power to defeat hate rests with you. Take it back. [00:34:30] Thank you. Thank you, Vera. That was amazing. Welcome, Caden Kiara. My name is Caden. I am a gender neutral trans-masculine bisexual. [00:35:00] My pronouns are Aziza. He, him, and she her. I'm a member of Q E D. I am a migrant from Western Australia. My family came here to escape a highly controlling Christian fundamentalist cult, known as Jehovah's Witnesses. Since the day I was born, I wasn't allowed my own voice or my own identity. I wasn't allowed control over my own body. Jehovah's Witnesses are incredibly [00:35:30] misogynist, homophobic, and transphobic. They are an anti-abortion, a stance they have in common with Ms. Kelly j Kean Kelly. Having toured Australia with anti-abortion campaigners, Kelly j Kean seeks to ban children under the age of 16 from being able to access abortions and contraceptives without the [00:36:00] need of parents' knowledge or parents' consent. This is dangerous for young people, young girls in particular, who have been raised in similar circumstances to my own in anti-abortion, misogynist fundamentalist communities. Who treat pregnancy as a punishment, regardless of [00:36:30] if it was the result of sexual assault, which runs rampant in these communities. When I began to find my voice and my identity as a five year old, the age at which I began to realize fully that I wasn't a girl, I was met with extreme violence. I was sexually abused by a boy twice my age to assert that I was a girl and he was a boy. When I went to tell people what happened, [00:37:00] nobody believed me. I was a accused of lying. I had no support. I repressed myself and these memories heavily. It wouldn't be until I was 16 that my gender issues would resurface as I tried to push myself to become more feminine, to accept womanhood, but I couldn't. It didn't fit me at all. I had dropped out of high school because I was dealing with both the trauma of escaping OC cult. The trauma of multiple sexual assaults from members of the cult, as well as a lack [00:37:30] of support from the religious leaders of our congregation. And though I didn't realize at the time the trauma of my gender dysphoria as I was being forced to fit a mold that wasn't for me, wasn't until I was 21 where I would begin my medical transition with testosterone and everything came together. I hadn't realized the toll I had been paying up till that point. My mental health [00:38:00] improved. I was more confident. I was happier, I was recovering. It wasn't until I was 21 that I was allowed to truly be myself, to own myself. I was no longer being forced into something I wasn't. My next point is since moving to Nu Tara, to Wellington, I have formed new bonds with people, with other trans people, trans women, especially. The most important bonds [00:38:30] to me was with a beautiful woman named Ian Trans. Gwen is a trans woman, and I love her so completely. I have never met anyone as compassionate, as caring, as funny, as kind, as respectful, as determined as she is. Me being someone who experienced a lot of trauma in my life, I had come to believe I was too much to deal with that my boundaries and needs were too much, [00:39:00] especially when it came to my boundaries around sex as a sexual assault survivor. But Gwen was always receptive to me. She listened to me, genuinely and truly listened to me. She respects me. She respects my boundaries. She never forced me into anything. She treats me with so much love and care of which I have never experienced in my life, and in [00:39:30] return I do the same. As part of that intense care and love I feel for her and for all trans women I know to an extent is intense fury over how they are treated by people like Kelly, J Keen and her supporters. The joy and happiness of my relationship with Gwen has been interrupted endlessly with hostility, outside hostility aimed at Gwen. Specifically for being an out and [00:40:00] proud trans woman. I have been shouted at and threatened in the street for walking next to her, standing by her against this abuse multiple times. I want to make a very clear distinction here that what happened at Kelly's event last week in Melbourne were a contingent of neo-Nazis who call themselves the National Socialist Network, stood up Sieg Haing with their Nazi Roman salutes that banners that said destroy Petto freaks. This was [00:40:30] no mistake since last year in October, Gwen has been stalked by herself proclaimed Ethnonationalist, who idolizes the Christchurch Mosque shooter, the man who murdered 51 people entering 50 more. The shooter who has direct ties to the National Socialist Network, who was reached out to by Tom Sewell, the head director of the National Socialist Network. Gwen Stalker has donated to action [00:41:00] Zandia another neo-Nazi organization that is also the New Zealand wing of the National Socialist Network, which was present at Auckland's event yesterday. Whether there are more direct ties and support for actions, zandia or not from this person, I do not know. I'm not the kind of person who delves into the personal lives of strangers on the internet. I care too much about my own mental health and the mental health of the woman I love to do so are,[00:41:30] but the idolization of the violent, racist terrorist who murdered 51 people at their place of worship is enough. The iDation of a inherently racist and violent ethnonationalist ideology is enough. It's all enough for you to get the picture that this is all related. This is no coincidence. This is not a mistake. Poey Parker herself knows this Poey Parker herself has pushed the same racist conspiracy [00:42:00] theories that got those 51 people murdered in their place of worship in 2019. The Muslim rape gangs Conspiracy Theory, you've. That the event organizer Food for the Let Women Speak Rally Terry Lip Novi repeated on R N Z Tuesday morning, 21st of March. How does it feel to know that you endorsed the views of a mass murderer who killed vulnerable women and children in Christ Church on March [00:42:30] 15th, 2019? You have blood on your hands, but so much is uttering the same rhetoric, those same blood soaped words. In addition to that, the actions of Kelly J King's Group on Thursday where they assaulted an indigenous black woman from jab Waring, gunna and gunna Murra descent, Senator Lydia Thorpe, pushing her to the ground dog, piling her as police watched on some of them joining in.[00:43:00] While the president of One Nation Party, Pauline, he henson a woman who regularly complains about immigrants from Asian countries, about Muslims, about aboriginal people, and campaigns for Australia's withdrawal from the United Nations Refugee Convention to deny the safety and wellbeing of vulnerable families from wartorn countries, vulnerable women, [00:43:30] children, and survivors of abuse, who have faced some of the worst abuse paddles on about how she's apparently been silenced. You, you sit in Parliament Pauline Australia has to listen to your divisive, racist bullshit every fucking week. And in addition to that, in [00:44:00] Auckland, one of our own mps, Marma Davidson. Amari woman was struck and hit by a motorcyclist. Thank you. How dare you claim to care about the wellbeing and rights of women, children, and survivors of abuse? Well use the very same line of thinking that killed 51 people from a vulnerable community made up of [00:44:30] refugees from water drawn countries, immigrants in this country, thousands more around the world. How dare you claim to care about women, children, and survivors of abuse while you walk with neo-Nazis, while you allow racists to talk at your events. While First Nations women are literally silenced for daring to disagree with you, how dare you claim to care careful women or children, survivors of abuse while you paint the woman I love who has shown so much consideration and [00:45:00] sensitivity to my own trauma as a survivor of. Sexual childhood abuse as inherently predatory because of her anatomy. I want to acknowledge the people who change gender, who love those of the same sex, and have always been here in a akata, poi, ERO fit, brother, boys and sister girls, and other indigenous communities. To the elders of these communities, past, present, and future, [00:45:30] and to the immigrant families, the women and children from countries who came here for their safety. There are those who tried desperately to erase you, but you have always been here and your presence matters. I also want to acknowledge our intersex communities. Who face different but similar challenges. I appreciate you and stand by your side as you do mine. Be safe, [00:46:00] be loud, be peaceful. Thank you for your love and solidarity. We won this battle, my friends. We won with peace and joy in our hearts. Let's continue this peace and this joy. Thank you. Thank you so much, Caden, for sharing that with us. We're gonna take a brief two minute break while we sort it, make sure that all our technical [00:46:30] difficulties are sorted out. We need you to help us during those two minutes by making some noise. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human. Rights, rights, rights Party. We have another important announcement. Nu, can we move back [00:47:00] to the back of Civic Square because we have too many people up on the bridge and we need to move some people from the bridge down into the square. Move back if you can move back to keep each other safe. While we're moving people, this would be a good time to run through some chs. Oh yeah. That we can all say together about Garth. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human [00:47:30] rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Fascist turfs. You can't hide. You've got Nazis on your side. You can hide. You've got Nazis on your side. Fascia, stufs, you can't hide. You've got Nazis on your side. Fascia stirs. You can't hide. You've got Nazis on your side. My body, my choice, my body, my choice, my body, my choice, my body, my choice.[00:48:00] We're here. We're here, we're we're where? Get used to it. Get used to it. We're here. We're here. We're we're. Get used to it. Get used to it, man. [00:48:30] Manton, manton, trans rights, human rights, trans rights, human rights, trans rights and human rights, trans rights and human rights. You're all fucking amazing.[00:49:00] We're now going to get our third speaker on the mic. Welcome. Racha has also been saving us all from a lack of selves. Good. Everyone. My name's Reacher and I am a, I am a proud trans woman. I am a proud Indian.[00:49:30] Growing up, I quickly learned that I wasn't like the other kids around me. Yeah. As much as I, I just wanted to be, you know, another Kiwi kid that you would, um, hear about in class. Nobody else would see me that way. I was brown. I ate what other people thought was weird food. There we go. I was too feminine for my all boys school. I was, quite frankly, I different.[00:50:00] I was treated awfully from your typical name calling and social exclusion to being the target of violence, many instances. Two. Graphic to share here today. I decided to myself at an incredibly young age that I would do everything in my power to make change so no other kid would have to go through what I was going through. I constantly saw those who lied at the margins, [00:50:30] the outcasts, and I still buy them, whether this be by including and accepting them into my friend circle or standing as an advocate for them with those who had authority in any situation. I can thank the incredibly staunch women in my family for this. My, my grandmother on my mother's side was a women's rights advocate in rural Punjab, putting her body on the line to support women who were the victims of violence. My grandmother on my [00:51:00] father's side was a survivor of religious violence. She witnessed her own parents' massacre, and the British caused violence of the Indian partition. Growing up in a government, government orphanage, and despite these challenges, she has always instilled the values of acceptance and equality in me, regardless of anybody's background. These are the people who have made me who I am today.[00:51:30] I realized I was trans when I was only 15 years old. I always knew I was different to the other boys at school, but it wasn't until I'd, um, finished high school at age 17 that I built off the courage to come out as trans. My parents weren't at all accepting at first, even forcing me to leave my home and face the world on my own. Being in the world alone taught me a lot, but being able to be openly myself if only among trusted people, absolutely changed my outlook on life. It gave me hope.[00:52:00] Our community, our community, us Everyone here today taught me the true meaning of love. I thought I was alone in the world, but I see out in the car today, my found family, my.[00:52:30] The traditional saying may go, blood is thicker than water, but I think today demonstrates that love is thicker than water. Our community is strong because of this love. This love is why we're out here today. In the face of unfathomable hatred, we turned up for each other, for our whanau, for our friends, for our colleagues, for our neighbors. Community [00:53:00] is at the heart of our movement, and what today proves more than anything else is that sometimes against the Lord. Love wins. In the past week, all of all of us here have spoken up against all odds and demonstrated the strength of our community. Frankly, we turned the fuck out. [00:53:30] The other side has had access to unimaginable funding access to the media, and a platform much broader than me or any of the organizers around me have ever had access to. But we fucking did it. We sent Posy Parker packing and signaled that we will not stand for hatred in our communities. We stood with each other, with our, our friends, our colleagues, and our neighbors,[00:54:00] but the fight is far from over. Trans people today are still denied access to life-changing and often life-saving healthcare with the waiting list for gender affirming surgery, sitting at over 40 years in its current set pace. I may be able to access healthcare when I turn 60. That is unacceptable.[00:54:30] [00:55:00] Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.[00:55:30] Everybody, we have a lost kit. The lost kid looks to be two years old. She has stitch on her pink shirt if she's your child, head down underneath the sails, underneath the white [00:56:00] sails. Thank you. And, and again, for those hear, we have a lost child. Oh, nevermind. They've been found anyway before. I was so rudely interrupted, so hopeful that women speak. Um, I was saying that the fight is far from over. I, I mentioned that trans people are still denied access [00:56:30] to lifesaving healthcare. The state and the mainstream political parties have deemed our survival and health. A nice to have is our survival, not a breaded, but a issue. Mr. Kins, the cost of inaction is dear. We are gambling with the lives and safety of our children and the rights to our existence. I promised to myself a long, long ago that I would do anything in my power to make sure no child would go through what I had to go through. And frankly, we aren't there [00:57:00] yet. In an election year, we all have the power to exercise our democratic rights at the polling booth, we. We all need to send a strong message to the parties who have frankly failed our communities. This includes the incumbent labor party when you, when you are looking for who to vote for this election. Um,[00:57:30] back anyway. To wrap [00:58:00] up. To wrap up so we can move on to other speaker. This election, you're genuinely look at which political parties have aspirations for our communities. Don't let labor and the parties. Of the right. Get away with what they've done this week and they've been doing for the past decades. Make your voice heard. If there is anything that today proves is that when we stand together, united, we can move mountains. I love you all. Today is our chance to celebrate, but the work continues tomorrow long live the revolution in.[00:58:30] Thank you. As you may have noticed, we have had one or two lemmings walking through the, a crowd of thousands of people that they're preaching hatred against.[00:59:00] If you are preaching hatred and you walk into a crowd of thousands of the people that you are preaching hatred against, you are quite clearly trying to Marty yourself. This is why I call you a living. We are here gathered. To spread love[00:59:30] as such, however angry we owe, we're going to make sure that those livings make it out alive to die. Sad lowly deaths another day. And you see if you see a dumb fucking in the. Direct that alert, a Marshall and then orange vest,[01:00:00] they will guide the livings out so that they can go on with their sad, pathetic, hateful lives somewhere else. Love that. Love, not hate. Love, not hate. Love. Not hate. Love. Not hate. Love. Not hate. Love. Not hate, love, not hate's Right to rights. [01:00:30] Right to rights, right? For a couple minutes, we will return 12 speakers in a couple minutes, but I think we just deserve to dance and vibe for a little bit.[01:01:00] Shout out to all my fellow. Patty, we have some drums. I had water thrown on me and my sign was ripped up. I had a flat up. Well, I'm just gonna wake here for a while [01:01:30] and see what happens. Yeah. Okay. So I think it's fair enough to have a different view. Right. Woo. Trying to get out of the feedback here. Can you all hear me? Yeah. Raise your hands at [01:02:00] the back if you can hear. Yes. Awesome. We've got our next speaker, Adair. Adair, are you here? Woo. Please welcome Adair to speak to us. It's actually good to be here, dear women's liberationist and communist[01:02:30] to stop. The not the likes of Kenny J King is not through calling on the state who are not our friend. The best way we've got to, we need, what we need to do to stop the likes of her is by using our own strength. We need to undermine the fears that she seeks to inflame Justice was done in Auckland [01:03:00] over the decades. We have made some reversible pro progress in securing somewhat better rights for workers, for women, for ethnicities. I've made that through overcoming divisions in the working class and uniting with the most depressed at Victoria University in 19. Early in 1970, [01:03:30] I joined one of the first women's liberation groups in the country and, and I also joined a Marxist group with a perspective of socialist revolution in which women's liberation wasn't essential part. My politics have remained much. The saying, I'm a partisan of the trade union movement, a [01:04:00] woman's liberationist and a communist. I stand against all oppression and I see the only decent outcome for US species as arriving from the. Military socialist ation. Today, 55 years after developing this constellation of years, there [01:04:30] has been slow progress, so it was. To see the Council of Trade Union's announcement that they would be joining us here today to stand against Kelly J Homophobic transphobic messages. She. Acknowledge that trans people are meant to be feared, and [01:05:00] they acknowledge not only that women's rights and workers rights are intertwined, but also that queer rights and workers' rights are intertwined. As workers, we must join together against all attacks on all the oppressed. But back in 1970, women's Liberation was not concerned with [01:05:30] claiming exclusive spaces. We were concerned with breaking into exclusive spaces. Wed. Town. The public was for men. Women had to go to the ladies.[01:06:00] This was an important change in New Zealand culture. Another problem back in 1970 involved jobs. The meat workers. Meat works were male, was a male bastion, and they were hiring. So some of us supplied, the employers told us that the work was too demanding. We couldn't do it. [01:06:30] We checked this out with Ken, friendly of the meat workers union and went back. We, the bosses then gave us a different answer. The issue was bathrooms. The toilet doors did not reach the floor, and the showers only had curtain. Not a problem. We said Any [01:07:00] man that stuck his head under the door or around the curtain would be dealt was by us. In those days, the issue was to get women in the jobs that many men had monopolized. Our battle was not for exclusive spaces, but for abortion rights. Childcare, equal [01:07:30] pay, and so on. And the best of us did it. Without demonizing men. We knew that if we did not work with men, our prayers, our hopes of building a society without oppression and exploitation was doomed to fail. Jelly Kelly, she is jelly.[01:08:00] Kelly j Keenan are followers here, spread prejudice and bigotry, which are the tools of oppression and exploitation and they are dangerous. A few weeks ago a Newcastle upon time, a representative of her organization quoted Approvingly. Hes wrecked rhetoric in mind camp about the big lie. She against wearing [01:08:30] hijabs as not British. She tried to whip. She has tried to whip up Islamia in Bradford where fascism is right. She has publicly praise Tommy Robert, English. And, and most recently when Open Fascists supported her in Melbourne, she did not [01:09:00] denounce or reject their support. We need to reflect on the long term consequences of the vitriol and lies targeted at gays and lesbians during the homosexual law reform struggle. People like Peter Alice, a gay childcare worker, who in 1993 faced vile false stories in hysteria [01:09:30] about sexual abuse children. And Jeff Wittington, a 14 year old student who was kicked to death in 1999 up the road from here, why he looked gay. Prejudice and bigotry kill. They drive people to suicide and they incite people to murder and [01:10:00] prejudice and bigotry kill trans people at an even greater rate than kills gay people. I want to end with a little story, which I think is quite amusing in 1970 in the student union's building at Victoria University. The women's toilets were several floors up from the common room and the camp, and we've got a bit sick of having to climb the stairs, so we [01:10:30] decided that right by the, walked to the cubicles and did our business and then left. What is interesting is that relatively recently in the [01:11:00] staff room or the school that I taught at, We were telling stories and I told that story and this male teacher turned around and said was, were you one of them? I was there. So we can do whatever we need to do. Thank you.[01:11:30] You are legend. Woo. I'd like to welcome our next speaker who is a representative from the Fight Up Stilettos an organization. An [01:12:00] organization that we have the utmost respect for, and we are proud to share the stage with Kiara. Uh, we have the honor of representing the 19 fired up stilettos today. We are [01:12:30] a group of 19, uh, strippers who got fired for trying to collectively bargain. Louder. Louder. All right. We are a group of 19 strippers who got fired for trying to collectively bargain, uh, to get fair pay and to get our tax invoices from a strip club in Wellington. Uh, since that [01:13:00] time, we, we've spent about a month and a half together, uh, collectively, uh, getting together across the motu, uh, strippers from venues all around New Zealand who are struggling with punitive fines. Uh, with bonds, um, with sexual assault in these clubs. And not only, not only are we a collective made up of [01:13:30] women, we are collective made up of gender diverse people. We'll not be silenced. We stand on the shoulders of giants such as Georgina Bayer, who we, dearly dearly. Miss Georgina [01:14:00] stood for not only trans rights. For queer rights, but for sex worker rights too. Although strippers are not considered legally sex workers, we are very much tied into the same community. We are innately connected with the trans community and many of our comrades crossover. We are a Venn diagram, [01:14:30] so therefore, sex worker and stripper rights are innately trans rights. We need action and public support right now as the conditions and venues worsen across the motu. It is imperative that we have your support moving forward. We will not let the voices of bigots scare us into [01:15:00] hiding. We are here and we are, um, I'm from the same group, so I won't go over that again. Thank you very much for your support, um, and for inviting us to speak here at this beautiful event that [01:15:30] is just so fucking cool. Like sws and turfs tend to come in like the same package. Um, and I want to acknowledge how stupid that frame of thought is. Um, in terms of the feminist argument, because it comes from this idea that women need to be protected from themselves and from other [01:16:00] people who are also women. Um, and that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So I just think that this is beautiful. Everyone is here together supporting trans rights. Which they should. Woo. And I want everyone to look around and see the numbers that are here and recognize what we can do when we stand together. Because there are a lot of fights needing to be fought right now. Yours is one of them. Ours is one of them. [01:16:30] They're all the same fight, really. So let's just do a lot of, a lot of this. Yes. And uh, on that note, if you wanna do more protesting, we are gonna be at Parliament on the 16th of April and we would love, thank you. [01:17:00] Woo. Big round of Applauses for the fight up the letters. Also want a shout out to the Maori wardens who've turned up. You guys are awesome. Shout out to all the volunteers who made this happen.[01:17:30] Would you like to speak? Our final speaker today is our amazing Chief Warden Leal. Thank you very much to everyone who's here. It's an amazing crowd, and the first time I've spoken to a crowd this large, and thank [01:18:00] you so much to the job done in Auckland. We've heard all about the past now, so let's talk about the future. A future that I hope has way more room for queer joy, for trans joy, for us to just have fun as people. Ah, since the turfs did not show up in force today, I'd like to talk [01:18:30] a bit about what we at Q E D are demanding, Ofra and the healthcare system. For those of you who are trans or have transplant, I'm sure you know exactly how fucking awful it actually is for those that don't. We've got transphobic doctors. We've got 12 plus year wait lists. It's all a complete shit show. And we want to fight the water to sort this out. We wanna,[01:19:00] we want properly funded with properly chained doctors. And we want an informed consent model now, oh, people are saying we're spreading hate. I say, we are here spreading queer joy, queer love. So let's just paddle.[01:19:30] We have gathered here today and what we have very good reason to believe. It's the largest queer right trans rights rally in the history of history of art.[01:20:00] You're all amazing. I'm feeling good as hell, and I, if you are also feeling good as hell as I hope you are, but it's okay if you're not. I wanna hear you say it. After I sing a little song, I got my head check [01:20:30] my nails, baby, how you mys, how you, that basically wraps up the part of this where we speak to you and with you, but we all wanna have some noise and some joy together for a little bit. So we're gonna have a bit of a party, maybe go on for half an hour, half an hour, half an hour, [01:21:00] make some noise, sing some songs, all generally like have a giant love fest. If there is anything concerning that we need to bring to people's attention, we will jump back on the mic and let you know. I'm reasonably confident that it's just gonna be a good time though man.[01:21:30] Trans rights are human rights, trans right to human rights. Trans rights are human rights. Trans rights are human rights. We're still here. We're still here. We're still fucking, we're still fucking, so you're better have got used to it by now. Yeah. So, um, we are [01:22:00] both volunteering with, uh, queer Endurance and Defiance today at the, um, rally for Trans Rights and Existence in Poka, Wellington. Um, originally we were gonna be here opposing the, uh, well known international turf Poey Parker. But, uh, she fled the country last night like a coward. So, um, it was just a huge celebration of trans joy and there was one turf who showed up and who was very outnumbered. Um, we packed civic square from wall to [01:22:30] wall and over the entire bridge too. So by far the biggest support of trans rights I've ever seen. Can you describe the feeling of seeing all those people in Civic Square? Uh, it's, it's pretty magnificent. Uh, I was stationed at the back for a long time, so I didn't really. Get to see it much. Uh, but then I came up onto the steps. I turned around and I thought, oh, nice. There we go. And can you describe the atmosphere? Uh, it's very joyous. It's very, [01:23:00] uh, it's very united. It's very united. There's a lot of, um, people who are here because they believe in a singular cause. Uh, and you can see that whenever you have people trying to speak out or coming in or just whenever they're supporting a message, uh, almost every five to 10 seconds the speakers have to pause because it's just overwhelming applause from the audience. And it's beautiful to see so many people united on, um, something like this. As you were saying that Poy wasn't here [01:23:30] today. Um, do you have a message for Poy? Yeah. Good riddance. Don't come back. Oh. Hi. Did I? Yeah. Dickhead. Yeah. I'm glad she didn't show up. I'm glad because, um, there was a high chance of having, you know, lava actions, landia, um, destiny Church, but without her to polarize them. It was a much safer environment for us in our party. I will say one thing, uh, I think we should all remember that this is a misguided and [01:24:00] hateful old woman, but an old woman. Nonetheless, I hope she's able to relax with a nice bowl of tomato soup. Kiara, I'm richer. Um, I, I, today I was out here helping organize this rally where we showed our numbers against hate and we really got out the message that love is stronger than hate. And that's something that I'm really proud of. How many people do you think are here today? I, if I had to guess from past, uh, protest organizing experience, I would say about two to [01:24:30] 3000. And I would say this is probably one of the biggest rallies, if not the biggest rally in aro. Yeah, absolutely. Especially on, um, any issues of, uh, trans rights or queer rights. It's fucking huge. As an organizer, how does it make you feel when you see so many people? Um, it makes me feel joyous because frankly, this is, this is our whanau, these are our friends, our colleagues. These are people standing up for our rights, cis, trans, gay, straight, whatever the case. We are loved and I really feel that today. Can you describe what the atmosphere is like? Um, it's an atmosphere, [01:25:00] again, of love, of, um, caring of radicalism, which is something that we really need in our community. And, um, we, you know, we don't feel silenced today. We've, we've gotten out there on our, on the loudspeakers and we've. Made our voices heard. Now, posy Parker wasn't here today. I think she was out of the country at the time. Um, do you have any words for her? Any words for Poy? Um, good riddance. Uh, goodbye. Um,[01:25:30] clear guys. Clear. Clear. Please See ya.[01:26:00] I have just attended the trans, um, rally against turfs, or turds is, we're hauling it lately. Can you describe the feeling? Oh, it was just a feeling of love and happiness and, you know, anger, you know, some of the speech has brought anger and sadness, but it also brought a lot of love and happiness and togetherness. Had you ever been in a kind of, uh, crowd that size [01:26:30] talking about trans and queer rights? No. No, I hadn't. I, I used to. Be involved in, um, pride in Hamilton and it was pretty small scene. Yeah. And, um, for you personally, why was it important for you to be here today? Uh, I've got a daughter who's trans. I've got, uh, I'm non-binary myself. I've got lots of friends who are trans. Um, and yeah, I've always just wanted to stand up for human rights as well. There were just a very small amount [01:27:00] of people that were, were kind of, um, protesting our, our rally. Um, what do you think of somebody turning up to like a, a rally of a thousand, 2000 people and, uh, I mean, gosh, I think the, the speaker at the time was correct in saying they're trying to be a martyr. Um, you know, I think they're trying to provoke us. Um, And, you know, that is hard to sit by and, and see that, but they didn't get to speak. And that's the main thing. And even when they left, I made sure they [01:27:30] didn't get to speak. Well, you were well, well prepared, weren't you? Yes. I had my bowel school vow. Is that the first time it's been used in a, in an activist kind of way? Yes, yes. I'm just so glad I've kept it. You know, I was thinking, ah, maybe I'm downsizing. Do I need this big brass school bell? But yes, I, and there you go. I do, I do. Well, it was very loud and very appropriate. Yeah. Thank you. I, I really, I just thought I can't do anything violent, but I'm really annoyed that this woman's still here. And so when she was [01:28:00] leaving, I made sure I escorted her out with my loud bell. If somebody couldn't be here today, uh, how would you describe it? What would you say to them? Oh, it was really fun and you missed out on a really good time and there was enough room for people as well, so, you know, if people were scared about the crowd, there was actually enough room and it was just full of love and, and it was really good fun. So, I'm. I'm Pepper. I'm a, um, Wellingtonian for many [01:28:30] years. Um, I came here to support, um, the trans community. I've trans friends and colleagues. Um, I hate to see the level of bigotry and intolerance and in fact, I regret using the word hate to see because I don't like the kind of, um, negativity that is inspired by women like Parker Posey. Um, and so yeah, I've come out in support. Can [01:29:00] you describe the crowd? Ah, it was a huge, joyous, colorful, um, diverse crowd of people. The, the energy was really positive. It was really lovely. Um, Wellington has. As you, I'm sure you know the highest population of rainbow community, and we really, I think we really saw that today. Then there's rainbow flags flying on the bridge over there. Yay. Wellington. It seems to me, [01:29:30] uh, just from talking to a lot of people that actually there, there's a real rise in kind of either, uh, in, in both anti-trans antique sentiment. Wh why do you think that is? I wonder if it's because it's just. That it's been revealed. I think it probably has always been there, but there hasn't been the same platform. It hasn't been the same stage. I think as probably our trans community and our Roseburg community are [01:30:00] more visible, people are reacting against that. Um, it's a similar thing that happens with, um, you know, child Maori and, uh, people feeling the threat of decolonization. People who haven't been aware of their privilege until the other gets the stage and, and they, and they realize they, you know, they can't hold onto that privilege that it is a privilege and the world's changing. So I think, I think it's, you [01:30:30] know, it's all of that. Yeah. Now I think, and please forgive me if I've got this wrong. We, we were both around during homosexual law reform. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Um, so, um, is it, do, do you think there's a different feeling between what was happening then in the eighties and, and what's happening now? I wonder. It's, I wonder if it's become more complex now and that also scares people. You know, I think, um, you know, just the kind of arguments that are coming up on social media, [01:31:00] they're, they're, some of them are, Are so irrational and they're trying to hold onto a black and white world, you know, a binary world. And, and again, it's kind of scary that it's not binary. I think. Um, and you know, the difference I guess in the eighties is that as far as I know, I'm not part of the community, but as far as I know, it wasn't trans wasn't part of that dialogue or that, that fight. Um, [01:31:30] so it was, although that's still raised, you know, a lot of bigotry and a lot of, um, you know, conservatism, it, it seems to me the difference is it wasn't as complicated. But like I said, you know, I'm not part of the community. I'm sure you know, and I realize it's always complicated, but I think, um, that, you know, the fluidity of. Gender, the, the fluidity, the spectrum wasn't as much part of the conversation then. So can you describe [01:32:00] from the crowd today? What, like, give me a, gimme a sense of what the crowd was like if somebody couldn't be here, what would the, what would you say? I would say there was a strong, um, rainbow presence. I'd say there's a strong presence of allies, I would say. Um, that, although mostly the crowd was kind of young-ish. I mean, I'm not young, so a lot of people seem young to me. But, um, uh, it was, yeah, yeah, positive. Um, lots of [01:32:30] signs, very funny signs. What would Georgina do? I love that transphobia in this economy, you know, so it was, you know, there was a lightheartedness, but there was also a real, a real serious. And a, and a commitment. Um, and yeah, people are just wandering away now, um, talking, chatting, it seems, um, pretty positive. Yeah. Now, posy Parker, I think, flew out last night from, from Auckland.[01:33:00] Uh, so couldn't be here today. Uh, well, well, actually, well, that was your choice, I think. Um, is there anything that you would say to her, uh, flippantly? I'd say get a life, um, more seriously, I'd say there, you know, stay out of other people's business. How does this hurt you? You know, um, she's not, I'm a. I'm a cis woman. I'm offended. And that she purports to stand up for women. Um, she's anti-abortion as far as I [01:33:30] know. She's quite very conservative. Um, I don't, I don't want her speaking for me. I'm glad that she's gone. Um, I'd say, yeah, New Zealand ro I didn't want you here. Don't come back. Uh, so my name's Spencer. Um, I use he, him pronouns. Um, it felt amazing to see all, uh, trans whanau and everyone supporting them. Um, it's been since, since hearing like the stuff about Posy Parker come [01:34:00] to New Zealand, I've been feeling quite, um, I guess kind of alone, even though I live with my, my beautiful trans partner. Um, but coming here was, uh, definitely made me feel better about just the whole situation in general. Yeah. Uh, Kiara, I'm Emmett tha them, um, I'm said beautiful trans partner slash fiance. Um, yeah, it's, we don't live in Wellington, so it can be kind of isolating sometimes. Um, and so just being connected to everyone, [01:34:30] remembering we're not alone, being at the back with the banner and having to just keep moving further and further and further back. Cause the crowd just kept on growing and growing and we couldn't hear a lot of the speeches, but we could still feel a lot of the energy and everything. Yeah. Hi, I'm Gre. Uh, it was really great to see people come out at, in celebration of trans and queer lives in general, uh, having lots of trans friends and family. Um, it can get really scary. Uh, you get really scared for them when you hear messages, uh, like what Pohi Parker has been stealing. [01:35:00] Um, but seeing all the lovely people gathered today makes you feel, you know, a little bit more hopeful for them and, um, just wanna protect them a lot. Yeah. I love you guys. Sorry. It's an amazing turnout. I don't think I've ever been in a crowd so large for trans queer rights. Yeah. How did that feel? Um, pretty, pretty amazing. Just, um, knowing that everyone there supports me, um, and like, lets, wants us to like actually live our lives and just exist. Um, like that, that's kind of [01:35:30] like the, the bottom, the bar is pretty low, but, um, that's, yeah. Kind of what I got out of it ex It was exciting but not surprising. I think like, you know, deep down I was like, yeah, actually there are that many people who were there for us. And watching everyone pour in was incredible. Even though we couldn't see the full size of the crowd, we could definitely hear the full size of the crowd. Yeah, uh, definitely over a bit of overwhelming with all the, all the people. Um, lots of love. It was great seeing so much diversity come out. And um, [01:36:00] I am from Wellington and I love seeing how many great people we have in the city and Yeah. And from outside obviously, or everyone coming from outside Wellington. So one person that wasn't here today was Posy Parker who left New Zealand yesterday. Um, do you have any words for Posy? None that you can publish. Bye. Yeah. Seconded. Yeah. Uh, my name is Ki Pollock and I am an out and proud lesbian, and my sign says, [01:36:30] Lesbians for our transo. Um, and I decided to make this sign because I know that, uh, There are lesbians who support the likes of Posy Parker, who are transphobic. And I find that extremely troubling and sad and also embarrassing to be honest. Um, and so I just wanted our transo to know that there are so many lesbians out there who absolutely [01:37:00] 101% support them. Why was it important for you to be here today? I think it's really important to, uh, take a stand. Um, the power of numbers is real. We saw that today. Uh, the more people at this sort of thing, the more feeling of solidarity, but also of joy. There was a lot of talk about joy and I absolutely saw that today. And you just, you need a lot of people for this. So these are the times where everyone has to stand up and make an effort if they possibly can and come [01:37:30] down to things like this. Speaking of numbers, how many people do you think were here? Oh, I would say, I don't know, 3000 like thou. It felt like thousands. You know, it, it absolutely filled, um, to Naco Civic Square, and it's so great to see, you know, what has historically been Wellington's most important public space actually being used again, you know, it has such a history of, um, protests and demonstrations and rallies, and that's. Kind of stopped for a bit because of all the closed [01:38:00] buildings. And so it's just fabulous to come back here and, you know, resurrect Civic Square again for such a great, great cause. And, and, and just making it, making it a, a queer space. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I remember one of the, I to come down here when out in the city was out in the square at the time, I can't remember what it was called when that was held at, um, civic Square. And that was one of my earliest forays into queer life in Wellington before I was out. And so I have really fond memories of coming here [01:38:30] and coming to that wonderful day. Uh, so. You know, I remember that. Um, and it's nice to be back again now in 2023. Um, gonna do a closing. Now, it doesn't mean you all have to immediately leave. You are free to vibe. This is your space. When you do go try to go together with other people, keep your vibes strong, you'll probably feel a bit of a crash at some point, just cuz we've had such an intense day together. [01:39:00] Look after each other, love one another. You're all amazing. [01:39:30] Woo. IRN: 3599 PRIDENZ URL: https://www.pridenz.com/caren_wilton_profile.html ATL REF: OHDL-004712 ATL URL: https://tiaki.natlib.govt.nz/#details=ecatalogue.1093102 TITLE: Caren Wilton profile USAGE: Important note: the text is provided to assist users find relevant material on PrideNZ.com. All rights are reserved and the material cannot be reproduced without written permission. The text may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. VOICES: Caren Wilton INTERVIEWER: Gareth Watkins TAGS: 1960s; 1970s; 1980s; 1990s; 6 Boulcott Street; Anti Springbok tour protest (1981); Anti-Apartheid Movement; Aotearoa New Zealand; Bi-lines (newsletter); Caren Wilton; DOODS (Dykes Out Of Debt); Dana de Milo; Dorian Society; Egyptian collectables; Egyptian themed; First National Bisexual Conference (1990); Hecate Women's Health Collective Inc; Lesbian and Gay Dances (Wellington); Lesbian and Gay Fair; Masterton; More (magazine); My Body, My Business: New Zealand Sex Workers in an Era of Change (book); National Library of New Zealand; Newtown Community and Cultural Centre; Railway Tavern; Rob Lake; Springbok rugby tour (1981); Strathmore Park; Sydney; The Women Learning Weekend (1981); Tiriti o Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi; Wellington; Wellington Bisexual Women's Group; Wellington Women's Resource Centre; Women's Action Group (WAG); Women's Movement; activism; anti-nuclear movement; author; biphobia; bisexual; bisexual invisibility; clothing; coming out; equal opportunity lovers; feminism; friends; hair; health; health care; health education; heterosexual; homophobia; homosexual; homosexual law reform; invisibility; judgement; lesbian; lesbian separatism; monosexual; oral history; overalls; politics; queer; separatism; sex work; t-shirts; trans; trans woman; transgender; transphobia; women; women only spaces; women's dance; women's rights; women's space DATE: 9 April 2023 YEAR: 2023 LOCATION: Wellington, Wellington, Aotearoa New Zealand CONTEXT: Caren talks about growing up in Masterton in the 1960s, moving to Wellington, feminism, lesbianism and bisexuality. Caren then goes on to talk about establishing the Wellington Bisexual Women's Group (established on the 6 July 1988) and the first national bisexual conference in 1990. TYPE: computer generated text TEXT GENERATION DATE: September 2023 TEXT: Kira, my name is Karen Wilton. I was born in late 1963 in Masterton and grew up in Masterton with my mother and my father and one younger sister. Um, my father died suddenly in an accident when I was 11, and so my mother was a solo mother after that. Um, Masterton was, it was a conservative kind of a place and um, that wasn't something I'd noticed as a young kid, but once I was a teenager, um, that beca started feeling quite difficult for me because I wasn't really a conservative.[00:00:30] Person. Um, I thought of myself as a feminist and probably as bisexual. And, um, yeah, so I left home when I had just turned 16 and went to, went to Wellington, started university at the tender age of just 16. Um, and it was, it was 1980. And so it was quite a, quite a heady, buzzy kind of a time really with, um, the Springbok tour was the following year and there was a lot of, um, student political activism was very, very apparent. Um, there was a lot of feminist [00:01:00] activism. There was anti-apartheid activism, um, gay, gay and lesbian rights activism. And so I found that really exciting and started getting, started getting involved with it. I'll just, uh, take you back a little bit when you, when you said, um, you, you thought of yourself as a bisexual and I'd be really interested to know. Back in those days, back in the kind of early, late seventies, um, was bisexuality talked about and was it, was, was that the word that was [00:01:30] used? It was, it was talked about a little bit. It was talked about a little bit and I, um, I didn't do anything about it. Right. I jus