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William Spurlin

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride [00:00:05] I've been asked to introduce Professor Sperling this evening. My name is Dave Moskowitz. I'm a past president of Temple Sinai, the Wellington progressive Jewish congregation. And currently the Jewish co chair of the Wellington Abrahamic Council, which used to be called until last year, the Wellington Council of Christians and Jews. And so we formally invited the Muslims to join us. But like many other Ashkenazi Jews, I lost a large portion of my family in the Holocaust. But just under half of my great uncles, and Auntie's were murdered by by Hitler, and the Nazis during, during the period of the Third Reich, which will be discussing tonight. And of course, it's very important to remember that the Jews were not the only people who were affected by this or a large number of others who were also affected by the same evil forces. And so it's very important for us to remember those others, as we work to eliminate all forms of racism and bigotry in our society and work to celebrate diversity. We Jews are very familiar with being the other. And there are many others in New Zealand society and around the world, who also have similar experiences. So it's very important that we have a greater understanding of this diversity, and our shared history with others who were not so fortunate during the period that will be discussing tonight. So we're very privileged tonight to have with us Professor William Sperling, who is the director of teaching and a professor of English at Brunel University in London. Situated at the nexus of Queer Studies, postcolonial studies in critical and cultural theory, professors, Berlin's interdisciplinary research and companies the analysis of a broad range of literary, cultural and critical texts, spanning from the end of the 19th and 20th centuries through the 20th and 21st centuries. His research areas include Queer Studies, gender studies, post colonial studies, critical theory, African and African American Studies, or Comparative Literature, translation, diaspora, migration and borders in Buddhist studies, and 20th century modernist and postmodern monitors literature and cultures. So he's a very, has a very, very broad area, and functions at the intersection of all these things, which I think is a particularly fascinating, fascinating. His publications include papers on queer identity and racial alienation of the politics of race and sexuality and James Baldwin and the New South Africa, resisting hetero normative, resisting re colonization effective bonds between Indigenous women in southern Africa, and the differences of post colonial feminist history. As well as having published papers in reclaiming the heartland, Lesbian and Gay voices from the Midwest, comparatively queer, interrogating identities across time and cultures, and a couple of monographs as well, including imperialism within the margins queer representation, the politics of culture in southern Africa. And this one here, last intimacies rethinking homosexuality under national socialism. So I think it is specifically in relation to this book that professors Berlin will be talking tonight. And, of course, you can obtain this book from, and many other online sources, and I hope many of you will be motivated to do so later on this evening and in the coming days. And I'm hoping that you will be so motivated by this lecture that you'll also have two other opportunities to see professors Berlin and Wellington later on this week, on Tuesday, the eighth at noon, he will be giving a public lecture on the post-holocaust continue persecutions of sexual dissidents since World War Two. And that will be at St. Andrews on the terrace, and also on Thursday at 5:30pm will be giving a public lecture on what we can learn from the persecution of lesbians and gay people during the Holocaust, and how this is impact positively or negatively on LGBT communities today, and that will be at the Otago School of Medicine down at the tenant Millington hospital. So I'd like you to give a warm welcome now to Professor Sperling, as he tells us about persecution of gay men and lesbians under the [00:04:56] Well, good afternoon, everyone, can you hear me? Okay? I'm fine. Thank you for that very lovely introduction. It's It's It's such an honor to be here and to feel so welcome here at the Holocaust center of New Zealand, I usually because of the nature of my work, do not usually get these very warm welcomes for obvious reasons. But it's very nice that I feel, you know, to feel so welcome and to be asked to come and speak to you about my work. Thank you so much for coming. It's a wonderful crowd on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, I would much rather be outside than listening to me. But [00:05:31] I do appreciate that [00:05:32] everyone is that everyone has come, I'd like to give a very special thank you to the Holocaust Center in New Zealand, its director and all of its staff and also to the re Friedman trust and the roof Foundation, all of whom have you know, sort of funded my trip here. So I'm very grateful for. For that it's as it's also my first trip to to New Zealand. My topic is what we know from the historical record the persecution, I think I forgot the word thought and my subtitle, the persecution of gay men and lesbians under the Third Reich. And this research is sort of ongoing. I mean, the book that was mentioned, was published in 2009. And I continue to do ongoing research and dabble in it. Some more just to bring up to date, the work that's been done, you know, since the book came out in 2000, and in 2009. So I'm going to be very formal and go through my talk just because I want to finish in time, so that there's a lot of time for questions afterwards. Okay. [00:06:38] Now, a question that has not been asked until very recently, and Holocaust scholarship concerns the place of sexual dissidents in our understandings of the historical and the ongoing significance of the Holocaust, published testimonies that appeared in the 1970s, the 1980s. And the 1990s. Here are some examples. gay men and lesbians who were persecuted under National Socialism were very valuable as social as historical documents that actually demonstrated the the, the actual realities of persecution, but this work has remained marginalized in mainstream Holocaust scholarship. So in those days in the 70s, the men with the pink triangle was published in 1972. The middle book is the days of masquerade by Claudia schopman, which was one of the first to collect testimonies by lesbians who were persecuted. And the liberation was for others, by Pierre sale, which was translated from the French mafia, Theo, these are just a couple of them. But these began to come out in the 70s 80s and 90s, as people began to tell their own their stories of being persecuted as gay men and lesbians. So we need to ask what is the place of sexual dissidents, and I use the term sexual dissidents also, because it's an any kind of resistance to mainstream hetero normative city where heterosexuality is seen as the norm. So what is the place of sexual dissidents and the overall scholarship on Holocaust victims? And why has it remained so visibly absent or under theorized in Holocaust research? Now recently, DAGMAR Hertzog has written a book called sexuality in Europe, a 20th century history. This just came out a couple of years ago. And she notes that sexuality has been burdened with enormous significance over the course of the 20th century, given the separation of sexuality from reproduction, and procreation, which became apparent not only through the rising availability of birth control during this time period, the 20th century, but also through heightened expectations of erotic pleasure, particularly for women and a general preoccupation in the 20th century, with sexual orientations, sexual rights and sexual norms. So sexuality when we look at the 20th century, well, you look at any century, but especially in the 20th century, underwent major shifts in thinking about about the nature of sexuality and about what it was. One would assume then, because of this, that the significance of sexuality as a marker of cultural organization, would belong to the study of the Holocaust, to the extent that sexuality is always a social and political category. That's always interviews with social meaning. So I take a few Cody and Michel Foucault, the French philosopher approach, that sexuality is not about biology, that was the older approach, you know, it was about male and female and all the equipment they have and what they do and so on. Then there was also the psychological or psychoanalytic approach, which looks at site, which basis sexuality in the mind and with psychic identifications, but Foucault said, No, that's not enough, it does include this things, but it also is socially and culturally and historically constructed. In other words, it's an invention, the meaning of sexuality changes as it moves across the injuries across time and across different cultures. So we also have to keep that in mind when we talk about sexuality as well. Now, in my work, querying the querying Holocaust studies, does not imply the reduction of sexuality to a separate axis of investigation, or to a problematic notion of a queer Holocaust. Some people talk about homework cost and all this other stuff. And I don't, you know, I don't think that's just going, you know, too far over the edge. Or even talking about a queer Holocaust as if that exists, you know, in isolation. But in my work, it's the way of my work on querying Holocaust studies is a way of broadening interpretations and understandings of the Holocaust, through analyzing particular discursive and institutional practices of the Third Reich, always in relation to racial hygiene, eugenics, and anxieties around social degeneracy and other nationalist goals and concerns alongside and in addition to the politics of sexuality and resistance is to hetero normative it. In other words, we have to study sexuality, side by side, Nazi notions of race, gender, population, and so on. But we also have to look not only at power, that resistance because wherever there is power, as I'm sure you know, with all groups in the Holocaust, there was also resistance. Okay, so examining the Holocaust through theorizing more explicitly and more systematically, the politics of sexuality under national socialism, I think helps point to some blind spots, or just some gaps in thinking based on the very long absence of in the history of Holocaust studies around the interrogation of state sponsored homophobia. Because especially because homophobia operated in collaboration with other vectors of Nazi power, it did not operate alone, the Nazis did not wake up one day and decide to be homophobic, rather, homophobia was layered within their racial politics, within their ideas about gender, within their ideas about eugenics and population and so on, as I'll try to argue. Now, it must be recognized for that for a very long time, homosexuality was regarded as an inappropriate area of Holocaust research, it was regarded as to titillating on many teachers who would teach the Holocaust and Israel for instance, were very, um, [00:12:40] I guess upset or shocked that when they taught the Holocaust to actual actual children of Holocaust survivors in Israel at high school level, that the, the students the high school students were very much you know, titillated by pictures of naked bodies being moved into gas chambers and so on. And people we're very upset that you know, this was sort of having an adverse effect it was a to titillating It was almost reducing the study of a holocaust to to pornography or to trivialization. So people thought, well, homosexuality, there might be some problems, you know, with that, as well. I know when the, the Holocaust Memorial Museum opened up in Washington, DC, they have a very huge library and Holocaust center there for the Advanced Study of the Holocaust. And there was some concern that, you know, some groups were writing into the paper to the newspaper and saying, because they were upset, because there was a very small section corner on gay and lesbian victims, and someone said, well, people's bad bedroom behavior should not be you know, memorialized in such a, you know, in such an important institution. So, these these thoughts and these ideas were circulated have been circulating for a long time. Now, this speaks in part two historical tensions within Holocaust studies, in terms of understanding Jews as the problem married victims of Nazi policies, given that they were destined for genocide, and an attempt to understand other victims of Nazi persecution as what was so beautifully stated in the introduction. And just to briefly summarize, Michael Baron Von Sydow says thanks for frames the point in noting the position of LED cell which acknowledges that while all that not that while not all victims of Nazi atrocities were Jews, all Jews were victims by virtue of being Jewish, and that a focused on other victims may detract from the Judaic significance of a Holocaust, the systematic murder of six to 7 million Jews and the possible if basement of their memory, so he acknowledges there are other victims. But he worries that if we go too far, we may lose. I mean, nothing compares to six to 7 million Jews, I mean, all of the groups, and he's very concerned that we lose that memory. Then there's another position that is advocated articulated by Simon Wiesenthal, and maintains that hope the Holocaust transcended the confines of the Jewish community, and that there were other victims, as indicated by the historical record. Now I still maintain as I do in my book, I will there's a picture [00:15:16] of it, I don't mean promoting my book. [00:15:20] In my book loft intimacies that it's important to recognize a very important to recognize the magnitude of the Jewish victims of national socialist policy, but that an understanding of other victims will deepen our understanding of the Holocaust and of Nazi fascism, given that racial politics were very much present in the persecution of gay men and lesbians. Now, I just wanted to pause for a second and talk a little bit about the Weimar period, which preceded because this is very important for understanding on the ways in which gay and lesbians were, were persecuted. So the the post World War One years and the establishment of the Weimar Republic in Germany between 1919 and 1933, signaled a new social order in Germany, enabling a greater openness towards sexuality, a challenge to restrictive laws and social codes, which were underway from the fantasy UCLA or the turn of the last century, onto well into the the teens and 20s of the 20th century, the rising modernist movement in Europe was happening at the time, which attempted to shake off the vestiges of the past, particularly the vestiges of Victorian ism. And there was a search for new ideas and new forms in literature, philosophy in the visual arts, creating a climate of exploration and experimentation. In art. The spirit of experimentation and breaking free from received conventions, was also reflected in social reforms. And this included new ideas that challenge social conventions around sexuality. So there was a link between experimenting and literature and art and thought to experimenting with social reforms, including ideas around gender and marriage and sexuality. The rising shift that brought about significant rethinking, or this rising shift brought about significant rethinking on such complex issues as marriage, reproduction and inter gender relations also enabled the flourishing of the gay and lesbian subculture at its peak in the 1920s. In Germany, in such cities as barely in Hamburg, Cologne, Munich and Frankfurt. There was also a precedent of this guy mineshaft there on again, which was the male friendship sort of organization, founded by eight off brand in the early 20th century. And this came out of the German romantic tradition, where men had to go off into the woods and practice being male. And you know, and it was also a bit misogynistic because this group thought that you know, that the strength and virility of men were weakened by being around women, so they had to break away and go into the woods and find their inner mail and all this kind of thing. But there was the good mineshaft or Onegin, which was happening in the early 20th century, and also a lesbian subculture developed in, in Weimar Berlin, in Paris and the left bank, many people from the UK and from America would go to Berlin or to Paris and try to discover their artistic potentials, many left their marriages because of they felt that the marriage was too restrictive to explore their artistic abilities. So it was a very interesting time. [00:18:27] Also, [00:18:29] Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld and his scientific humanitarian committee advocated at this time for the scientific study of sexuality. Now, Hirschfeld, who was also Jewish, founded the Institute for sexual science in Berlin in 1918, which he directed until it was plundered and destroyed by the Nazis in 1933. Right after they took power, the institute attracted a huge international reputation for its pioneering research, and it theorize homosexuality as congenital and as constitutionally or genetic determined. Rather than simply being acquired. Most important, Hirschfeld began campaigning for the rights of homosexuals as far back as 1897, through raising public awareness, the same sex, love and affection all bonds for both gay men and lesbians, and through trying, but not succeeding, to gain public support for the decriminalization of homosexuality, based on the principle of mutual consent between adults through the repeal of paragraph 175 of the German penal code, which I'll talk about later. So he tried to get that repealed, that was not successful, even during the Weimar, this period of, of a very progressive kinds of thinking, especially around sexuality. Okay, so during the Weimar period, Berlin especially became a vibrant European Center for gay and lesbian subculture worldwide, the city gained a reputation as a major queer capital with liberal attitudes toward the body and unconventional sexuality. Gay and Lesbian Bars and Nightclubs flourish. Gay writers such as Andres, you, wh Auden Christopher issue issue, and many others lived actually in Berlin during this period. And the police authorities in the 1920s became much more tolerant toward gay bars and gay cafes, and they concentrated instead on observing male prostitutes and homosexual interactions with minors. So and I don't have the time they'll buy more period is very interesting. I like to teach it and my students are very interested in it. But I don't have the time to go into that history now. But it's important to note that despite calls for sex reforms, a greater openness to public discussions around sexuality, challenges to restrictive laws, and social codes, all of that a greater visit visibility and confidence among gay men and lesbians. Not everyone, however, shared these progressive ideas, this openness, this is a version of traditional gender norms, or same sex desire. This was also the period of the new woman who was liberated from the conventional constraints of marriage on end of domestic life. As a matter of fact, right wing opposition to the to the new public visibility of homosexuality and demands for restraint intensified under the Weimar, especially as unemployment and inflation began to rise between 1929 and 1933. Actually, the very openness and public and publicity around sexuality and sexual difference provided the fodder for a violent backlash under the sexual politics of Nazi ism that followed the Weimar years. So it's very important to know that even during the Weimar, people began to say, Okay, wait a minute, things have gone a bit too far, we have to cut back things need to be established, we need to clean things up, and so on, which is exactly what the Nazis did when they came into power. [00:21:43] Now, here's a little outline of my talk, just so we don't want people to get lost. Or think that I'm talking all over the place as I sometimes do. So these are the main things, what we know about the historical record. And I keep saying, you know, it's because there has been so much resistance to, you know, this line of inquiry, I like to keep saying, but it's, you know, as historians, you know, it's a matter of record. These are the things that are in the record, although at sometimes I feel we need to read the record much more carefully and much more critically as well. The record doesn't signify in and of itself, it's the way that it's read and the way that it's interpreted. And the record has been read from a very, I think, sort of limited point of view, and we have to go back and reread it and so on. But these are the things that we know. Okay, so as soon as the Nazis came to power in January 1933. Through the campaign for a clean right, measures were taken to ensure the efficacy of the normal, abnormal split with regard to sexuality, which the new government believe had been undermined under the previous Weimar. So there are some things that are abnormal, and there are some things that are normal and we have to get back to order folks, things have gone too far. So they wanted to bring back this categorization of what's normal and what's not. The Nazis began with the official banning of pornography in February 1933, just one month after coming into power, the rating looting and destruction of books and manuscripts and Magnus Hirschfeld sexual Science Institute in May of 1933. And raids on and closings of gay bars in Berlin and other cities in 1933 1934. Now, they did other things as well, when they first came into power. I'm just following the sort of the gay and lesbian sort of, you know, trajectory. But it's important not to look at these early forms of power, as well as those that followed as targeting homosexuality in isolation. Without its deeper layering in Nazi racial and gender politics. Nazi displays of power were very deliberately performative and staged, in order to induce fear as a way of restoring masculinity, which, which they believed was lost after the German defeat and World War One and the further weakening of Germany through economic depression, so it was also a desire to restore masculinity to the German nation state. This required in the views of the Nazis a tightening of gender roles, and the Rhian standard deviation of the traditional gender split or gender binary, as a way of restoring masculinity as forceful, virile, and willful. This meant that women were to be driven out of the world of work and that their independence was to be curtailed, so that they could concentrate on domestic and family life. Repeated impregnation, was regarded as a man's assertion of masculinity and as his right, masculinity, indeed, a hyper masculinity, with inseparable from the identity of the Third Reich, especially within the Nazi leadership, which feminized both Jews and hope Jewish men and homosexuals, by representing them in ways that made them stand out in stark contrast to the very militaristic and highly gendered character of knowledge rule. This is precisely where sexuality race and gender intersect. And it's very important, I think, to look at intersection ality, rather than to look at each group in parallel relations so that you have you know, Jewish victims, then you have homosexuals, you have Roma synergy. You have Jehovah's Witnesses, I mean, because what we what we know about parallel lines from geometry class, right is that they never meet. And of course, it's very important to look at different ways, these different oppressions intersect without saying that they're equal or that the thing that they're the thing because they're not we also, just because things intersect doesn't mean that all groups are on the same social, political and economic ground either. But it's very important to see when it comes to Nazi power. You know, how anti semitism, race, gender and sexuality are very much tied to a very deliberate [00:25:57] and systematic kind of program. [00:26:02] Now, as George moss points out, stereotypical depictions of so called sexual degenerates, like homosexuals, were transferred nearly intact to so called inferior races, who inspired fears of unbridled sexuality, to the extent that Jews and other races deemed inferior, were marked by excessive uncontrollable sexuality. In other words, both homosexuals and Jewett and Jews were thought to use their uncontrollable less than passions as weapons against the morality of evoke and the superiority of the Nordic race. [00:26:39] Okay, so there was all of this around the campaign for the cleaner right, the next point [00:26:44] is the rain purge, which is also called the light of the law the night of the long nice. So you can see how systematic just by looking at the date, so the campaign for clean right 33 to 34, the rain purge 1934, the next line 1935. So let's go to rain heard and of course, the racial ization of homosexuality can be used to understand the rain purge of 1934 and Nazi intolerance for homosexuality within its own ranks. On 30 June 1934, air stream leader of the essay or the Sturm of T long, the Nazi stormtroopers, who was homosexual was murdered by the SS. Also murder during the night of the long knives, as it was called were other known homosexuals in the essay, and those in the essay leadership who were perceived to threaten the consolidation of Hitler's power, initially, and rain had Hitler's support and Hitler knew about rain. Since the essay was necessary for the seizure and maintenance of power. While the murders were politically motivated, the murder of rain in particular indicates that homophobia was used to justify the persecution of homosexuals, as enemies of the state on the grounds of disloyalty and to subversion of national interests. Homosexuality could also be used as a form of denunciation of the regimes political enemies didn't matter if you were homosexual or not the DNC ation of it, you know, by by denouncing you. And even suggesting that you were could place you into danger, as reigns assassination martyr decisive turn in the intolerance of homosexuality within the Nazi ranks, and in general, it would be questionable, I think, to theorize the hyper masculinity demonstrated and performed by Nazi men in power, and the HOMO erotic potential within these very tightly knit homo social bonds, homos social beings with all men one gender, okay, we shouldn't see this as forms of latent homosexuality among Nazi men. Now, a lot of people say that, all that Matilda all that, you know, the fact that they were all men that they had power that they were these very sort of, you know, militaristic uniforms. Were very attractive. We're not only homos social because it was a group of men, but it was also a bit homo erotic, which, okay, maybe some people were attracted about, and then to go further to say that they related homosexuals. I mean, I think we have to be a bit careful there. Now, that doesn't mean none of them, you know, were that none of them had sex with each other. I don't know. But it was not. It was if that happened, it was certainly the exception, I think, and not the rule. Because this would he lie, the simultaneous disavow of things have felt same sex desires and prohibitions against their enactment within fascism, as well as the impact of the rain purge, and then Hitler's later decision in 1941, to denounce what he referred to as the plague of homosexuality by prescribing the death penalty for those in the SS and secret police convicted under paragraph 175. And, of course, the possibilities of sex between men within the elite ranks of the Nazi Party are not precluded, despite the strict prohibitions against them. But it is important to borrow mind that these close knit same sex bonds were very highly managed socially, under very powerful strategies of homophobic surveillance, discipline and regulation. Okay, [00:30:13] now the next thing, so I'm sorry, my slides aren't in the right order, I have to keep going back. [00:30:18] Okay, so now we're up to the revision of paragraph 175 of the penal code in 1935. So you seem to be quite systematic, this is almost every year, there's like a new thing. The Nazis seem very keenly aware of the ambiguities in defining homosexuality only through private sexual acts, thus recognizing it social mediation, the social mediation of sexuality, and the signifying practices through which same sex desires and identities were encoded. Now, remember, I mentioned Foucault a bit earlier about sexuality not being reduced to the body, or not being reduced to the mind. And the Not that I mean, I hate to give it off his credit for anything, but they knew that just what people did, to end with each other, or what they did in bed or whatever, was not enough to talk about sexuality. So as a result, the original anyway, the original paragraph 175 of the penal code, which translated there, became law in 1871. So this preceded the Nazis by quite some time. And this criminalized unnatural sex acts between males or between humans and animals. Notice how they put homosexuality and beast geology sort of in the same in the same category, and punish those charges with imprisonment. unnatural sex acts was often taken as synonymous with anal intercourse, but could also include oral penetration, enter cruel sex and self gratification in the presence of another man. So it was basically either sexual intercourse or intercourse like x that could be that could be used as ever evidence for prosecution. However, on 28, June 1935, Article six of the amendment to paragraph 175 was passed, and they replaced the term unnatural sex act with that of sexual of sex offense. Now, so before there was an unnatural sex act, and the only way to to prosecute someone was to catch them in that act. [00:32:27] That sex offense is much broader. So it makes it much more easier to to catch them rather, or to prosecute someone rather than only defining homosexuality by a sex act. The revised paragraph 175 was referred to now as paragraph 175. A, and this allowed for imprisonment of up to 10 years, or not less than three months for men who threaten to commit acts of violence toward other men in order to compel them to engage in sex offense for men who have used relations of dependence based on service employment or or subordination for men who seduce younger men under the age of 21. For men who committed sex offenses with other men in public, and for homosexual prostitutes. Now what committed a sex offense was much broader, the use of the term sex offense not only designated an intercourse like act, oral penetration and you know, penetration into a cruel sex where a man places the penis between the eyes of his partner, but could also include any kind of sexual gratification in the presence of another man, including physical contact between men with sexual intent, including touching, kissing, hugging, and so on. Paragraph 175 also made any expression of feeling between men and homo erotic fantasy and thought criminal offenses, the revision of the law could also be applied retro actively and process occasions for offenses committed prior to 1935. So if when the law changed in 1935, and you were awaiting your trial, even though maybe you were arrested before the law was changed, they could use the new law against you. The revision of paragraph 175 to 175. A was a shift from sodomy, to other expressions of same sex desire, which could include men kissing, embracing fondling, as well as homosexual fantasies that were articulated in private conversations, in diaries and in letters. So do you see the shift from that in that law from 175 to 175? a, how broader it created the basis for for prosecution. Now, while there were now what what do you what you notice about this law is that it only mentions gain that pretty much. Okay. There's no mention of lesbians, there's no mention of lesbian sex. And it was not special typically encoded into law, either in paragraph 175, in the original version, or in 175. And I'm going to come back and talk about that separately. I think I'm going to give separate a separate point to lesbians. [00:35:13] Okay, so coming back to where we left off the revision of the establishment of the right office for combating homosexuality [00:35:21] and abortion. So now we're up to 1936. The idea that Nazi sexual politics intersected with racial and gender politics and the National Socialist imaginary is further evident in hydrophobic Himmler's establishment of the rise and fall through your book home film, their homosexuality taught their ob five boom, the rights central office for combating homosexuality and abortion within Gestapo headquarters in Berlin on 26 October 1936. Now this is interesting. YR homosexuality and abortion put together in the same office in the same department. This also gives us a clue or a hint that you cannot separate homosexuality from their racial and population politics. The establishment of a special department within the rights central office for combating homosexuality and abortion was part of the process of heightened inscription and prosecution of homosexuals through with Jeffrey Giles refers to as centralized police intervention made possible through the extension of paragraph 175. So because 175 was extended to include a broader range of, you know, possibilities for prosecution, it almost was sort of a natural thing to have this our right office established, but the fact that homosexuality and abortion were linked in the same central office connects homosexuality I think, more prominently with ratio and population politics, homosexual sex, and a high number of abortions were blamed for stunting population growth. As a Michael Burley notes in his book The history of the third right, which is a very thick tome, the banning of abortion and contraception applied only to Aryans. Since the procedures and practices were to be left. These practices and procedures were to be left as options along with involuntary sterilization for the eugenic Lee unfit such as Jews, Roma, Cindy, and our urban African Germans, homosexuality was coupled with abortion, because both had Demetrius effects on the birth rate on the birth rate among area and Germans. The main task of this office was to quantify index and compare relevant data to keep those suspected and convicted of homosexuality with their personal details of change, will also with the personal details on their sexual partners, links with the Gestapo were maintained by the central office in so far as an offender's homosexuality presented a serious threat to population policy or public health. So this office was basically to gather information on index cards. I mean, you know, the Nazis were very sort of very fastidious about records. On the more serious cases, however, that were handed over to the Gestapo included congenital homosexuality, or we sit of so the if you kept doing it, and it was probably that's the way you were born, then this was a concern to the Gestapo, as well as rent boys, male prostitutes and homosexual offenses involving juveniles at homosexual events, the offenses within the Catholic clergy to the extent that these threatened or endangered children, Jeffrey Johns argues that, quote, the implementation of policies against homosexuals was neither consistent nor unfailingly rigorous and quote, which was not the case with regard to Jewish victims. So one must recognize that the sort of prosecution of homosexuals was not as rigorous. It was, yes, it was not as as rigorous or as organized as it was with regards to the final solution. What the historical record does indicate, however, is that surveillance and arrest did write the surveillance and the rest of the homosexuals did rise sharply in the years following the establishment of this office. In the period between 1937 and 1939. For example, 90,000 men and youth were registered as suspected homosexuals or as presume partners. So that means their names were on cards, they thought they had files in this right office, and unpublished report of the rights central office for combating homosexuality and abortion indicates that the number of men sentence for crimes under paragraph 175 or 175, a to be about 43,000. Between the year the Reich office was founded in 1936. And the outbreak of World War Two in 1939. So 90,000 people were on record for homosexual, you know, for suspect being suspected of homosexuality, almost half 43,000 were convicted and sentenced [00:39:54] between 1936 1939 now, when World War One broke out, the Reich office was then closed the Gestapo and the Gestapo took over in terms of managing, who was sent to concentration camps and so on. Along these lines, the Nazis state both journalistically and medically viewed Aryan homosexuals as population zeroes, who contributed to Germany's declining birth rate by not fulfilling their obligation to the reproduction of the master race and the welfare of the nation. And as criminals who seduced and corrupted the young, in medical literature going back to the late 19th century, which is rife with scientific racism, images of male Jews and homosexuals often run parallel. Both were portrayed as prone to hysteria and feminized three such descriptive characteristics as tone of voice and bodily movements, more appropriate to women than two men. I mean, this is how they were often represented in met it represented in medical literature. And of course, Nazi medicine was very much attached to the state. bus, the social inscription of male Jews and homosexuals were not only racialized and medicalized, but gender denied masculine agency, for white Nordic homosexuals, homosexuality represented a visible mark of unGerman. for homosexuals from racial groups already marked as social outsiders, their sexuality was further marked as an indicator of racial inferiority. So it was a no win situation, if you were a white German, you were seen as being undermined because you didn't fulfill your duties as a father and so on. And if you were a member of another racial group, that was just another instance of your racial degeneracy. [00:41:31] And you can see there's another from the medical journal. [00:41:36] Yes. I'm Dr. sterner on pathogenic germs and there's a petri dish, a microscope with a petri dish, and then the petri dishes super impose. And these are all the germs in the nation state. And if you look very closely, I don't know if you can see the screen so far away. [00:41:55] But what can you see this triangle? What else? David? [00:42:03] powers Niccolo communist, yeah. dollar sign capitalism. These are the pathogenic germs? Can you hear me? Yes, these are the pathogenic germs that can infect the nation. So it's a scary clinic supposed to be symbolic medical research, and you know, all of that, and of course, the germs. [00:42:24] And of course, this was part of the Nazi propaganda machinery. Now at the same time, while it is important to examine homosexuality under national socialism in relation to eugenics and Nazi racial and population politics, it does not follow that homosexuals and Jews stood on the same social and political ground and the National Socialist imaginary. Just because we're making that comparison, the way that they were represented in medical literature, we have to be very careful that the pathways for homosexuals and for Jews were very, very different punishments for homosexuality. Unlike prosecutions against Jews, we're not audit, we're not consistently applied, punishments varied and severity as a result of disagreements among Nazi officials and medical doctors. Regarding the extent to which homosexuality was regarded as a behavioral or a psychic disorder, or as a genetic trait that could infect the health of the nation. Some homosexuals were given the opportunity to reform through re education, an option not open to Jewish victim, homosexuals, if they could prove that they were not sexually active. And if the Gestapo had no proof, to the contrary, could escape prosecution, another option not open to Jewish victims, regardless as to whether or not they were observant of the rules of their faith or had renounced the Jewish religion. This shows that unlike the persecution of Jews, Nazi persecution against homosexuals, were not as systematic. That is, there was no concerted campaign of the mass murder of homosexuals equivalent to the Holocaust against the Jews. And that point, very much needs to be made. Although we can see that the racial politics often intersected my we talk about gay and lesbian victims. Now, what were what were some of the actual [00:44:09] the wrong way? Yeah. [00:44:15] Some of the actual persecutions and in tournaments and camps, the very informed of actual persecution of homosexuals under national socialism. In addition to changes in the law, the destruction of gay and lesbian communities and cultures are already very well documented. What we do know is that in the 12 years between 1933 and 1945, there were about 100,000 men persecuted for homosexuality, close to half, that's between 46,050 thousand men were convicted, and initially given a prison term depending on the nature of the crime, initially six months for mutual masturbation a year or more for oral sex, harsher punishments for anal sex, seducers of youth, pedophile, pedophilia, and recidivists Andreas stern Beyeler, who has done a lot of work in Berlin at the Shula Museum, the game museum that's there, which is also a library and an archive. He points out that judges often acted on their own discretion based on their interpretations of morality and healthy German people. Gunter grounds analysis of documents of the Nazi leadership indicates roughly 5000 of those who were convicted, were deported to concentration camps. So the numbers are all varying very much. So you have 100,000 men in all approximately who were persecuted, who started who were prostitute who 100,000, who were [00:45:36] who were prosecuted or who were arrested. 46,000 to 50,000 of those about half were convicted and sent to prison. And then about 5000 of those were deported to camps. Then Lou Tucker Lightman came along and researched archives at the International tracing service in Ralston, Germany, and found the number of homeless sexual prisoners in Kenya, identifiable by the, obviously by the paint triangle that they were made to wear on their uniforms varied the number of people in the camps varied at any given time, or any given moment in any given camp. Because the head counts were not as precise as they were for this group of victims. Now, he estimates between 5015 thousand homosexual men were incarcerated in camps during the Nazi regime. And that's the I think, because of the rigor of his research, that's the figure that sort more or less stands out than in the research and most people then estimate the median at 10,000. He says anywhere between five and 15. So I think the most accepted figure is around 10 10,000, who were incarcerated in camps, and that the death rate of homosexuals in the camps was about 60% of those numbers. Though he stipulates that the exact number of deaths can never be known fully. A lot of records were destroyed, a lot of records are incomplete. At the beginning of World War Two the right central office for combating homeless sexuality and abortion was reintegrated into the right main Criminal Police office. And it was the police who enforce the commitment of homosexuals to camps following a directive from Himmler on 12 July 1914, criminals and a social elements which included homosexuals and lesbians were to be taken into preventive detention. In other words, a concentration camp following they're released from prison. So you would serve your prison sentence and then you had to go to camp. This increased dramatically the number of homeless sexual prisoners and concentration camps. Men convicted of homosexuality were often assigned the most difficult labor referred to as extermination through work, such as through working in the punishment battalions of the rock quarries in Boots involved in the gravel pits of cow from 1934 to 1936. And in the underground galleries were v2 weapons were being produced at door and middle about in the winter of 1943 and 44. homosexual prisoners were also tortured, forced to have sexual intercourse with prostitutes in order to prove themselves and as you can vault in particular, which had the highest proportion of homosexual prisoners. Those convicted of homosexuality were subject to medical experimentation. In his article on homosexual inmates at book involved. Wolf gone Wolfgang role indicates that voluntary and enforced castration were a Nazi measure to eradicate homosexuality since the mid 30s. And that 200 calculations were performed at Luke involved between 1938 and 1940 alone. He further elaborate the for 1942 the Nazi leadership feared a possible outbreak of typhus fever, both at the front end within Germany especially at the camps within Germany and developed an experimental station for typhus fever at the book involved. A considerable portion of the subjects tested based on camp records came from the penal battalion where a significant number of those prisoners were homosexuals, many of whom met with agonizing deaths for the administration of inadequately tested and underdeveloped vaccines for typhus book and vault in particular experiments involving the introduction of a sexual hormone implant, which was implanted into the groin region, and would reduce would release additional testosterone into the bloodstream as a way of curing deviant sexual desire. These implants were performed by the famous or I should say infamous Danish SS Dr. Carl valet, and resulted in several deaths, including heart failure and festering inflammation of cell tissues. Because homosexual men entered in concentration camps held very low status and mechanical hierarchy, they were often given the most dangerous and physically difficult labor to perform. They were subjected to various forms of medical experimentation as human guinea pigs. They were subjected to beatings and rape by camp guards and other prisoners, sometimes resulting in death. They were ostracized within the camp community, they were given no positions of responsibility, no cape bows or anything like that. And they encountered hostility from other prisoners because of the societal influence of homophobia in the broader society. They were also subjected to execution, though not systematically through firing squads and then through gas chambers, and were subjected to a higher mortality rate among other non racial are compared with other non racialized groups. The inconsistency is in the Nazi persecution of homosexual men while linked with its racial politics and the framing of political practices and institutions for casting homosexuals as enemies of the state, while not reducible to the final solution should not however obscure the historical and material realities of homophobic terror, violence and murder the gay men suffered under Nazi ism. [00:50:36] And then I just wanted to make my final point. I should [00:50:42] have arranged these differently on the persecution of lesbians, and resistant women or lesbians as resistant women. And as I said before, Holocaust research has quite consistently stipulated that lesbians were not as systematically persecuted by Nazis as we're getting men, largely because lesbian sex was not criminalized under paragraph of 175 of the Penal Code. Now, there is evidence, however, that there were debates among Nazi jurors as to the legal status of sex between women and some Nazi jurors did argue when you look at transcripts of debates, that that lesbian sex should be included in the Criminal Code. a transcript from the minutes of discussions by the Subcommittee on population policy in March 1936, for example, demonstrates that some Nazi officials believed that population policy was very much was not threatened by female homosexuality and response to proposals for its criminalization, under the assumption that if a woman was seduced by another woman, she would not necessarily withdraw from normal heterosexual relations and could still be useful in terms of population growth and development. The subcommittee also spoke to the difficulty of proving illicit sex between women given a woman's natural quote, natural inclination towards effusiveness and caring and quote, there were those who did argue for paragraph 175, being extended to women are being extended to women arguing about lesbians for the same threat of racial degeneration to the area nation as did homosexual men. But the final decision was not issued until 1942. And the letter from the right Minister of Justice to the rice Commissioner for the occupied or region territories in Oslo, the letter states, quote, homosexual activity between women apart from prostitutes is not so widespread as it is among men, given the more intense matters of social intercourse between women, women who indulge in unnatural sexual relations are not forever lost as procreative factors in the same way that homosexual men are. And for experience shows us they often resume to normal relations and quote, but the fact that the possibility existed was very, you know, made lesbians live in a lot of fear, because they knew that it was illegal and the paragraph 175 had already been extended for men. And there was the threat that it may be extended to women as well. And there were also various forms of persecution. So it's important to challenge this view because it the view that lesbians were not as systematically persecuted because it risks further misrepresentations or illusions of the victims of Nazi ism. And also, there was a broader precedent, there has been a broader precedent in Holocaust research that has not paid sufficient attention to the unique experiences of women. Because of a historically masculine bias in narrative about Holocaust victims and survivors. Women tell a different story. And for a long time, if the if their experiences did not happen to men, they were regarded as trivialize or as trivial and not as important. So there has been which is changing now, because feminists scholarship certainly has had effects on Holocaust research in querying Hello, cost studies, not querying the Holocaust. But querying Holocaust studies, it is important, as I argue elsewhere, to ensure that the axis of sexuality, not override and obscure the axis of gender, so that we can allow the specificity of lesbian difference, as distinct from gay men and as distinct from heterosexual women to emerge. So it's very important that we just don't look at sexuality, because then that tends to [00:54:25] get reduced to gain that. [00:54:27] We also have to keep gender in the picture. So it's kind of like you have to juggle all of these things together, there racial politics, the gender politics, you know, keeping gender in the picture, along with sexuality, and so on. Well, there was a thriving lesbian subculture we know in Weimar Germany and in Paris during the interwar years. And I think I already talked a little bit about the culture that was emerging in the lesbian subcultures the Weimar Germany, and also the left bank of Paris, the new woman, and that was not necessarily a lesbian movement, but many women in the new woman movement where lesbian. And here's just a very interesting picture of Berlin lesbian lesbians for Alan was written by Margaretta roellig which talks very interesting, very interesting ideas about lesbians and you know, and their artistic achievements, and Magnus Hirschfeld wrote the introduction, the foreword to that book. There you have Marlena Dietrich, there's a lesbian couple performer at the bottom. So it was a very interesting, a very interesting time during the Weimar years. But it's important to point out that the more repressive Third Reich did not render lesbian existence completely invisible either. At the same time, just because lesbian sex was not criminalized in paragraph 175 does not mean that lesbians did not suffer persecution. In Austria before the country's Angeles to Nazi Germany. Paragraph 129 one be criminalized all forms of same sex sexuality, regardless of gender, which carried a potential prison sentence of one to five years. According to Matthew Boone fell down paragraph 129. One v remained on the books in Austria between 1938 and 1945 and was linked to the German paragraph 175 after the Angeles in 1938, resulting in intensified persecutions countless deportations to concentration camps and numerous deaths and the statute remain that's paragraph 129. One v. On the books after the Constitution of Austria Second Republic, though the German Penal Code did not adopt Austria paragraph 129. One be so Austria kept at 129 one be after the Angelus, they also adopted the one the German 175 Germany did not adopt the Austrian 129 one be okay, and the 129 one v was not lifted or decriminalized until 1971. Similar to gay men, lesbians also suffered the destruction of their bars and clubs, the banning of their newsletters the breaking apart of their sub culture and their sense of community that had existed in ground in many German cities, as I said before, from the beginning of the 20th century through the Weimar under the third right but not the solid women not otherwise, if they weren't otherwise marked by ethnic or racial difference, physical or mental handicap party membership or political or religious beliefs. Women were generally then predestined for motherhood and the domestic sphere and therefore seen as subordinate to men. As Robert Proctor notes in his book racial hygiene the Nazis saw women as reproductive rather than political beings. Specific to lesbians, the enforcement of gender norms tied to hetero normative sex, sexuality, could put place them in danger if they did not conform to not the ideals of femininity. Not Claudia sharp men who I mentioned earlier who collected writings by lesbian survivors of a Third Reich and her book days of masquerade reflects on the lived experience of Elizabeth Zimmerman, it was only one of the women she interviewed to illustrate the gender specific socialization of girls and young women and how this centered on their obligation. I mean, this is the raising of young girls to be sexually passive and to remain chaste. Because sexual activity was conflated with conventional femininity to be feminine was to be sexually passive. In other words, as a Nazi conduct book read, said line blithering on the right Velden to remain pure and to mature, the process of discovering one's lesbian desires could be spread over a much longer period of time than was the case for gay men. The enforcement of gender roles for women was, of course very much tied to Nazi population goals, especially to raise the birth rate in Germany, which had declined in the period from the beginning of the 20th century to 1932. Proctor notes that in 1900, the German birth rate was 36 births per 1000 people. By 1932, there were fewer than 15 births per 1000. So it went down [00:58:49] by more than half [00:58:50] the racial hygiene movement that went back to 1917 in Germany, valued quote, a healthy tendency toward motherhood in women and quote, which was about printed at the highest levels of the Nazi hierarchy after 1933. There was also evidence of Nazi propaganda speaking of an awareness of lesbian existence and its threat to population quote as of the German state dashboard, so core, an official journal of the SS indicated in 1937 that quote, The true woman suffers if unmarried, not because she lacks sexual intercourse, but because she lacks a child and has not answered her calling to [00:59:25] motherhood and quote, [00:59:26] so in the case of lesbians, non hetero normative, non procreative forms of sexuality seem to be erased or dismissed as inconsequential. You don't see anything about lesbian sex in the penal code or you know, it's just completely raised. But with men, sexual intercourse or intercourse like acts were encoded specifically into penal law. At the same time, however, the reproach of masculine ization was often used to intimidate women who dared to speak out who's who dare to break out of traditional gender norms and hetero sex is social structures, as this would be perceived as a threat to the stability of the regime. Signs of overt masculinity in a woman's such as hairstyle clothing, or outward behavior, enable the policing of women's gender roles and less overtly there over there erotic lies. Another conduct book published by the Nazis woman organization in 1934, interpreted masculine identification in woman in women as quote, degenerative signs of a foreign race, which are hostile to procreation and destructive to the people, healthy races it said do not artificially blur the differences between the sexes and quote, so do you see how it becomes how it comes back to race, and that, you know, homosexuality lesbian I existence is racialized. Gender enforcement for women was linked to Nazi anxieties around the possibilities of lesbian existence, but more important to its anxieties about its population goals, and the connections of non hetero normative sexualities to racial degeneracy. Most lesbians, however, were not prosecuted specifically as lesbians but as a socials. Now this was a rather broad group, a diverse category, a catch all category, if you will, comprised of the Nazis considered not to be living up to its ideals of proper citizenship and national belonging, and who had not committed any major crime or were not members of an inferior race. This group also included prostitutes vagrants, those who violated the laws prohibiting sexual relations between Aryans and Jews, and so called resistant women who fail to live up to the regime social demands, such as its demographic goals, and many in that group of resistant women were lesbians, not all. But as Amy element notes, the heterogeneity of this group marked by a black triangle, so you won't see the pink triangle on lesbians makes it difficult to render lesbians legible because other people also have the black triangle based on you know, being part of this group. And unlike the case of gay men who were identifiable, their pink triangle, the refusal to stop working their resistance to heterosexual marriage, the failure to bear children, and certainly having effective and erotic connections to other women refuse and refusing to be defined by any relation to men did place many women under threat, particularly if they were lesbian, despite the lack of criminalization of lesbian desire, this could result in intimidation, harassment, persecution, and possible arrest and deportation. [01:02:28] Annalise WO, that's her back in the 40s and that was her shortly before she died. The picture on the right is taken [01:02:38] 1994 when she was interviewed by Claudia schopman analyst who who was also known as Johnny, a lesbian who survived the Nazi era and was interviewed by Claudia schopman in 1987 speaks of the growing climate of fear at the beginning of Hitler's regime, especially the fear of paragraph 175 been changed to include lesbians, and she discusses how many of her lessons friends change their appearance or even married men to avoid detection. She also speaks of a former lover, who had spent two years in the Robins Brooke between 1940 and 42 for refusing to help produce munitions as part of her compulsory national service when her superiors suggested that she do that. To give another example, which is perhaps more well known. Elizabeth or Lily worst, the wife of adopt the officer underwent torturous interrogation in 1944 as a way of forcing her to deny that she had sexual relations with Felicia Frankenheimer, a Jewish woman, who was initially schrager at hand is on the right, who initially was arrested in 1941 as an a social, and then she went underground and she was re arrested by the Gestapo as a Jew. schrager died in Bergen Belsen in 19. In January 1945, was admitted that no lesbian love had existed between the two women at the time, the admission of a sexual relationship with another woman would have meant internment and account. And of course, because at the time she was married to a Nazi officer, her interrogation was not trying to make her admit that she had a lesbian relationship, but trying to make her deny that she ever had one because it would have been, you know, a scandal and so on. So she lived with us and it wasn't until 1991 that she corrected the record, ending decades of agonizing silence by telling her story to the American journalist, [01:04:31] Erica Fisher, who published the book Amy and Jaguar in 1994, based on the lives of lyst, and shrug and high, which was later made into a film The following year of the same name on a Jaguar and was died in 2006. Just very recently, in Berlin, lesbian existence still needs to be more meaningfully and folded into Holocaust research, which cannot be accomplished, as I've argued before, by traditional historical approaches that rely on received forums archival and textual evidence alone, or by assuming that lesbian existence and persecution during the Third Reich can be understood in the same ways we understand the persecution of gay men because they're very different, the gender difference makes is quite key. Rather, we need to understand better the ways in which some women labeled as a social and persecuted for their resistance to multiple forms of domination, including the enforcement of fixed notions of femininity through marriage and procreation, restriction to the domestic sphere, and sexual subservience to Nazi officers for whom they might have worst could possibly have been lesbian. Even though their sexuality may not be immediately apparent or legible in the historical record, it is important that historical archives are we read carefully for the possibilities of lesbian existence and read alongside the record of survivor testimony, only some of which I've been able to address here. This may in turn open up new questions that challenge the hetero normative frame reference, there used to be a masculine sort of bias in the reading of testimony and Holocaust history. But there are also hetero normative frames of reference that need to be challenged. Because these hetero normative frames of reference are used are the ways by which we largely understand the past in general, as well as understanding that hetero masculine is bias that for so long, has dominated Holocaust scholarship. And I think my time is just about up. So I just wanted to end by saying that future work studying the Holocaust can help to deepen its meaning and shape its ongoing significance by approaching historical sources with new questions about sexuality and gender, while being attentive to the blind spots and the gaps in the historical record. And by illuminating the ongoing ways in which homophobia intersects with other forms of power, and continues to shape contemporary society and culture. And I think I should end there. So we have some time for questions. Thank you very much. [01:07:15] Any questions? Yes. [01:07:19] idea of like a map the [01:07:22] medicalization of sexuality. And I was wondering if you could maybe talk to [01:07:29] the idea. [01:07:32] Because they also persecuted people on the basis of [01:07:36] disability. Yes, yeah. How? And we've got some have those? [01:07:41] Yes, yes. Well, very much, though. Yes, because the medical the Nazis were very keen on, you know, any kind of pathology, I mean, even if they had a very narrow notion of what the norm was. And they really instantiated the norm versus, and the only way to sort of define the norm, is to define the outcome. And of course, it's very interesting, because when you look at the history of homosexuality, homosexuality as a term, if I move away, am I not picking up on the Omen? Okay. Homosexuality is a term did not come into being until 1869. Before it was just considered to be an act. So it was, you know, an act of sodomy, that was a crime was considered to be a one off, okay. And then medical doctors came along and said, Well, no, wait a minute. There are some people it's just not a one off thing. It's an identity. It's who they are. The term heterosexuality was not invented until 18, at 11 years later, which shows that you are finding other first and then yourself in relation to that other. So yes, the medicalization of homosexuality was very much connected to the the medicalization of those who were physically and mentally disabled. Nazi medicine then work almost looking, it was almost looking for pathologies that confirmed their prejudices of what was not normal relation to white, you know, sort of white Nordic nor so all of its groups, I think, although each group was not treated the same. The Nazi medicine was very closely linked to the geopolitical sphere to the sphere of law. And for that reason, there was a major link between both physical and mental disability and the medicalization of, of homosexuality and very pathological terms. [01:09:40] Okay, yes. [01:09:42] As the German No, was four [01:09:45] beautiful blonde, tall, slim, [01:09:48] perfectly formed, how do they explain themselves? You know, the top hierarchy with dark hair? Yes. And obesity and various other things like that. How do they explain that? How they being? [01:10:03] The Nazis themselves? Yes. cope with that? How do they cope with the fact that they were the norm? Yes, yes. Well, they thought they were I mean, that was the that was the problem. You mean. I'm confused by your pronouns. Sorry. [01:10:20] They thought was beautiful. Yes. Same blonde. Yes. Yes. Yes. Not [01:10:26] much. The hierarchy? We're not long. Yes. [01:10:30] Absolutely. Beautiful. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. How did they explain that? Yes. Well, they explained it through genetics and through blood, and through, even though they did season cells in very ideal terms, I mean, as the inheritors of the ancient Greeks, you know, with those beautiful statues and beautiful bodies, which also were a bit homo erotic, you know, I mean, statues that looked like, you know, David, and, you know, the Greek god, I mean, that, and I think they caught on quite soon that, you know, this is having the wrong effect, because the statues were all were very attractive, and, you know, and things like that. So, that was, there was a way in which they represented themselves as very beautiful, it was part of the propaganda machine. But the real test was, was blood and was was raised with racial eugenics. So I mean, it was on the blood that you had. And it was interesting, because those same processes were used in South Africa, to justify apartheid. I mean, what I was studying the sexual politics, I'm very interested in sexual politics and very repressive and totalitarian regimes. And I was reading, I was researching in South Africa, on the sexual politics that emerged out of post apartheid politics after apartheid. And I was aghast to learn that the framers of apartheid in the 1930s, before the war, visited Nazi Germany to study the hierarchies of the races to justify, you know, to justify indigenous Africans as inferior, and to justify, again, under a different kind of paradigm, but very similar white Nordic superiority, and to justify, you know, apartheid. So there is a link there as well. And they too, we're not all necessarily, you know, beautiful and perfect specimens, like in the statues and all of that, but they believe that they had the right to, to live on the best land, to oppress the indigenous people who were there all along, and to assert their racial superiority. But when it came right down to it, it was more a matter of blood looks, but the actual forms of representation in the propaganda and in the literature and film, and you know, all of that made them all look, you know, seem to look very beautiful. But of course, you got to adopt something else. Yes. Thank you. Yes. [01:12:54] You're right. About what the Circle of Life Yes. [01:12:58] What is the basic crew? neck? [01:13:06] Later, you mentioned about so many teams of thousand. So, Damien, the ending of it, but [01:13:13] yes, yes. Nicholson pricing? Yes. [01:13:19] Somewhere between the two, you made a reference to them? [01:13:25] I'm the guy from Belgium to the to [01:13:30] the President. So my question is, what was the legal face some of the [01:13:40] given more time for [01:13:45] sending them to dialogue? 70 is [01:13:49] what was the legal basis for the insight on how we're going to put you in a consultation? [01:13:56] Yeah, Oh, absolutely. That's a very good question. Yes, there is a video out there. I mean, I think in this regard, the Nazis sort of made it up as they went along, they were very nervous about. [01:14:08] Because I think that, you know, the, after the prison term was served, they were not convinced that, and there was a lot of discussion and debate among, among minorities, if homosexuality was congenital, or if it was learned. And they were very afraid about releasing people into society, again, because there was also a large percentage of recidivism where people were being, you know, found guilty again. So it was better to just keep them in, you know, in under another form of detention in camps, particularly if they're it depended also on your record is dependent on the nature of what you went to prison for. Some person to two camps to an age were forced to have sexual relations with prostitutes to see if they could be cured. Also, they were needed for the medical experiments that were, you know, that were rising, you know, at the time, with also interesting, of course, is that after being sent to prison, then after serving their, their time in camps after liberation, under the new government, many homosexual many gay men were put back into serving the remainder of their prison terms if they hadn't served them originally under the Nazis. So can you imagine going to prison, then to camp and then being put back in prison? And that's something that no other group really had. And that's quite unique, I think, to this group on so many had to go back. And you know, because the new German government felt that these were people who did not deserve reparation. These were people who were criminals and who broke the law. It was 175. They broke it, and they deserve to be punished. So just looking at the traces of the ways in which prosecution work is also quite interesting. Yes. Does that answer your? [01:16:00] Well, yes, I think your comments [01:16:03] written? Probably irrelevant [01:16:05] with all [01:16:07] Yes. Usually the federal level. Yeah. [01:16:10] Yeah. And then to stick around with it. [01:16:12] Yes. Yes. [01:16:15] Which was what was the legal basis for putting us in concentration? [01:16:21] Come on, believe? [01:16:23] Or what do you call it? The new rubber balls? [01:16:25] Yes. Yes. Yes. [01:16:28] initiative. Yes. the right word? [01:16:31] Yes. [01:16:37] Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. [01:16:51] Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. And I do think that, you know, and because they had absolute power, they still wanted to give the semblance that there was law and order, and that they were doing, you know, things according to the book, but they would use the laws very much to their own advantage and to use them, you know, in such a way that they could basically get away with, you know, whatever they wanted to Yes. There were lots of other hands. Yes. [01:17:17] You [01:17:19] as to I think each concert, right. [01:17:23] And how about the change in Germany and? And those other Western countries? You mean, after the Nazis? Yeah. So if they would, [01:17:35] let me talk to that homophobia [01:17:42] is not specifically a religious condition. Yeah. And then have been shut down? Yes. [01:17:50] Yes. Well, that's the subject of the neck of the other talk. I think that was mentioned. When I'm speaking, I think on Tuesday at St. Andrews. They wanted me to speak not so much about the historical record, but about the the ongoing implications. But you do see shifts, we must remember that homophobia or actual law, none, none of the prosecutions of any group is a momentary operation. I mean, you know, these things are continuing in different forms, you know, today, but with regard to gay men and lesbians, I mean, the the criminal law paragraph 175 and 175. A remained on the books and the former West Germany until 1969, and 1968, in the former East Germany, Austria 1971. And I don't have the, I don't have the features with me. But the numbers of arrests in the 1950s are quite high. I mean, almost as high as they were during this period. I mean, they didn't go to camps. But I mean, as far as prison sentences, and so on, were concerned, because after the war, there was this sense of, we've got to get back to normalcy. So again, that normal abnormal slip was reinforced again, under a different sort of lens. But nevertheless, marking insiders and outsiders, reestablishing heterosexuality as the norm, healthy family relationships, especially in America of all places. Because what happened in 1948, the publication of the Kinsey report, the 10% of American men after America was feeling very phallic and powerful after you know the war. Suddenly, to be told that at least 10% of American men pop probably more had sex with another man more than once to the point of orgasm and after the age of 18. Now, of course, why did Kinsey make those three stipulations on me want to ask that to my students? They say, well, then that's because they must have really enjoyed it. But no, because you couldn't dismiss it, as you know, what boys do in boarding schools or something because it was more than once with the point of orgasm, and after the age of 18. And of course, the shock postwar America, like, Oh, my God, many there might be wondering, next all the Matthew one teaching your children. And actually it was the military doctors that started ferreting out homosexuals in the military, and actually putting them on to what were called queer ships. So you know, if you were stationed in Europe, you were put on the ships that were sent back across the Atlantic, Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Miami. And if you were stationed in the Pacific, Japan, and so on, you rent your ships were sent to I don't know, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles to the coastal cities, and many people, they got blue discharges, which makes a dishonorable discharge. And they were too embarrassed in those days that we did with a period of intense social conformity, they were too embarrassed to go home. So biggest remains the port cities where they disembarked. And that's why in the States, there are so many gay and lesbian enclaves in those port cities. I mean, gay people like the beaches too. But that's not the there are social and historical reasons for that. And that's why. And there's other things that come on Tuesday. And I'm going to, I'm going to sort of pick up where this leaves off and then go into the the other day getting, but it was a long time before. I mean, even now, with gay marriage. There are, you know, and all of that there are still issues. I think the gentleman next to you had a question. [01:21:09] So, Germany wasn't very [01:21:12] common in Italy as well, it was quite [01:21:15] intimidating. And a few of the public governments around France hungry for period. And Nazi Germany also stated a lot of the other countries [01:21:22] Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. [01:21:25] Why does Germany stops and homosexuality not influence? Those? Not the government's quite as much [01:21:33] as it? Yes. Yeah. Yes, that's a very good question. Um, I would say that the whole notion of homophobia was very rampant at the time anyway, and when you look at any fascist, sort of our fascist leaning nation, so Mussolini and you know, Franco, and so on, you do see what what is very characteristic is the instantiate of very tight gender roles, very sort of normative gender roles. And it comes out of that the notion of what it means to be a man, the notion what it means to, you know, to be feminine, and to be a woman, that these very narrow ideas come about. They didn't go as far as the Nazis did. And of course, we tend to focus on the Nazis, because they actually criminalize people and something to prison into camps, and, and so on, which didn't necessarily happen, although under the Vichy government, and in little parts of occupied France, they certainly were deported. As a matter of fact, many lesbians left Germany migrated to France, and then before 1940, and then once the occupation came, they were, you know, they were stuck again. So, um, and wherever the Germans occupied the same rules, you know, applied, so the Netherlands and other places you could be sent to, you could be sent to counts. But there were, you're right, there were very slight variations. But I mean, it wasn't a after the Weimar after the early 20, the interwar years, the period between World War One and World War Two up until about 1933. I mean, it wasn't a very happy time for to be gay or to be lesbian, which is in such stark contrast to the earlier part of the 20th century where it really thrived. And for women's rights as well, I mean, the suffragette movements that came out of the 1920s, were not able to pick up again until the 1960s. Because, of course, you had the war, that you had the period of intense social conformity in the 1950s, although by the white late night, but the late 1970s, a lot of women were getting fed up with this getting back to normal business, and, you know, and began to, you know, because it was like, sort of, you know, normal for him here and began, you know, Barry, Freetown and others began to, to write about this, but yes, thank you for that question. Okay. Yeah. And then [01:23:53] try and pick up a [01:23:56] demographic perspective on this gender [01:24:02] difference. [01:24:05] In the focus of the of the Nazis, what I was wondering about is, do you have any information about the presumed numbers of gay men versus lesbian women? At the time? Did anybody actually go out and try and capitalize? Yeah, would have been tourism? And again, or did they just simply presumed like, the [01:24:32] apocryphal story of Queen Victoria? Yeah. [01:24:40] Yeah. Were there any efforts? Were there anything? for us? [01:24:47] Yes. Well, the ones that I gave you for gay men, I think are the most accepted [01:24:52] there. But what were the female? [01:24:55] The female, the record is so incomplete. I mean, I don't think so. was yes, it didn't exist? We did that. Yes. I mean, there are I mean, people like Claudia schopman and others have, but because there was no specific group with a specific marker or triangle, or whatever, that was specifically lesbian, it's very difficult to come up with exact numbers, because the a social group with the black triangle included people with other infractions or other kinds of sort of difficult positions that they had in relation to the Third Reich. So it's very difficult to find the numbers and even the numbers for gay men you have that you're dealing with records that were very sporadically kept, and not as precise. Now with with regard to with regard to Jewish victims, I mean, they were very, very precise. And the records were very, very clear, for very obvious reasons. But this Yeah, and also, because for so long, it was ignored, as you know, seen as trivial or not as important. And it's only within the last few years that the testimonies have actually come up. [01:26:01] Sorry, I'm trying to focus on the difference. Yeah. The gender based different Yes. [01:26:09] of the Nazi policies, did they actually fully focus [01:26:15] less [01:26:17] on the women? Because you haven't seen the young? [01:26:19] Yes, Yes, Yes, they did. Unless for women, it was unless they were overtly masculine, or unless they deliberately, openly overtly sort of gave signs that they were lesbian, or that they were very much not invested in the gender norms that were prescribed for them. So whereas for gay men, even if they were discreet, they could still be, they could still be prosecuted for lesbians if they were discreet, and the record shows that more lesbians and gay men entered into marriages as a form of discretion, as well. So and also because as the reads from the Nazi jurist that it was much more difficult to prosecute women because they, they were felt to be naturally affectionate with one another, which was not to you know, at the time, I mean, now men go around hugging and kissing each other. But this is a very recent phenomenon, that did not happen at the time. So. So yes, as far as comparing, I mean, the numbers are much higher for for, for gay men, as we presently understand them, just because their records for lesbians are very, are very difficult to actually see who was persecuted, definitely for being lesbian, or for being a resistant woman. It really depends how we define lesbian do we find do we define it as Adrian rich does in terms of both the affectionate political and, and or erotic bonds, that women share the whole idea of a lesbian continuum, which can begin over here with just women being affectionate and supportive with one another, to the other side, where women are having a very erotic sexual relation with one another? And of course, Adrian, which says that most women, you know, vary across various spectrums within that continuum. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. There was a hand here. [01:28:13] All of you for being late. Oh, no. I'm [01:28:18] heading back to practice tomorrow. [01:28:24] I am Yes. What? [01:28:28] I'm coming to Christ Church on Friday. This Friday? Yes. Yes, at the New Zealand [01:28:36] Institute for International Affairs on Friday. And then on Monday, it's something that Christ Church or a Canterbury, University of Canterbury on Monday and on Tuesday. [01:28:56] What's happening now in Indonesia, with me? LGBT? Yes. [01:29:04] Yes, yes, well, it's a very similar thing, many countries are sort of cracking down on, on, on these sorts of, and this is also something that I'll be talking about in the other. In my later talks, this week, when I talk about more about the contemporary implications, that how gender lot people that you know, in sort of has times become much more conservative, gender roles sometimes become much more, much more rigid. And that because you cannot talk about sexuality without talking about gender, because sexuality is policed through the policing and the shaming of gender, so that, you know, the same thing sort of happens. And, you know, it's more or less, you know, getting back to very rigid gender norms, implies getting back to very hetero normative forms of sexuality and mothering those who don't conform to this kind of those kinds of norms. So we see it happening in other parts of the world, I think, in Uganda, they were trying to reinstitute the death penalty for homosexuality, which did not pass, but you can still get a life prison sentence. In much parts. In many parts of the post colonial world, you have section 377, which came from the British colonial administration, and still remains on the books today, at the same number 377-917-5377, which remains in many of the former British colonies today as a result, which is a huge impediment to education for HIV AIDS, and for prevention, you know, and all of that, because the the line of those governments is why should we give money and have development for criminal behavior? And of course, then we look at the rates of HIV AIDS, especially in you know, in South Africa, in southern Africa, sub Sahara Africa, in general, which the rates are standard. People, like my students tend to think, oh, it doesn't matter. You know, there's this whole sexual promiscuity going on now amongst young people who don't use protection, and oh, well, we'll just get our medication. And you know, if anything happens, but of course, those medications are not available in many parts of the developing world. They're sold as the prices that that exists in the West, which is, you know, almost a person's entire, and your salary. So we still have we must not be complacent about any of the of the victims of the Holocaust, because these things are my new games, temporary operations. Was there a hand at the back? And then how much time do we have? [01:31:39] I think we have time for one more question, unless all together and if you're happy to stay around? Oh, yes. Yes, of course. Yes. [01:31:48] Okay, I think somebody here was having and then I saw some more hands that maybe we could talk afterwards. Yeah. [01:31:55] You very much. [01:31:58] My question is about particular students and positions around. Now we really particularly talked about guy podcaster. [01:32:08] And the inevitable implication of that is all of a minor treasure in a conference, which is somehow a mind of my a treasure of mine find it and I'm alive. Right. Right. Right, which is something else had gone to, again of the conference. Yeah, I suppose significant. And what a tragedy 19 destruction of European jury, and I'm talking about the sessions, yeah. Now, if I use the term Holocaust, literally burn offer, which I could say is a morbidly and appropriate metaphysical metaphor. Yeah. I am potentially talking about not just Jewish victims of Nazi genocide, but gay people as well. Yes. If I talk about Sean, which is my preference as a joke. Yeah. I am very clearly talking about extermination of European theory. But I'm not talking about genocide practice that it's getting people getting more than I'm talking about the genocide of Russian prisoners of war will be able to Russia. Yeah. So my question to you is this is have we not reached a time where we need a name, to designate to specifically identify this catastrophe as a distinct and unique catastrophe? Which is it through a life of interwoven? Yes, with all of these images? [01:33:39] Yes. Yes, if we can find a term that specifically identifies what you're saying should be identified and not be separated from or ghettoized from the larger picture of, you know, of the Holocaust? And, you know, the whole historical period? That I would say, yes. I mean, there have been some terms put around that I don't think are sufficient, like Homer cost and, you know, etc. And I think it is a problem of language, because language is really, you know, what influences thought. And there are, this is still another gap. I mean, I remember reading French philosopher, Francois leotard, who writes about the de fer honed, which is that for which there is no terminology back for which there is no language, and he uses that he bases that in the Jewish victims of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, who simply could not articulate what they had witnessed in the camp and survive, because there was no language for it. And I think that is very instructive, because how do you find a term and eventually, of course, language is found and you know, and testimonies came out, and so on. So it doesn't mean that it's impossible. But it's really an arduous task, because you want to name the specificity of all of this. And you don't want to completely separate it. But on the other hand, you don't want to completely void of any particular identity. And it's, it's very, I don't have the term I mean, but I would be very interested in one, I think it's something that we need, we have to realize that this work is never finished, that it goes on that it's a process, and that we need to continue to be thinking you know about this, it's the thought that keeps all of this the thought process, these the discussions, the deliberations, the arguments, the disagreements, that keeps all of us at Holocaust studies very much alive. And the idea that we still there's a lot that we still don't know. And there's a lot that we need to search for even such basic terms, as you know, the ones that you're that you're raising, I mean, this process very much goes on. I'm sorry, I don't have a precise answer. But I very much agree with the issue that you're facing. [01:36:00] Should should we break? I'm having so much time, I mean, you know, I'm just not watching the time so that I'm cloud area. [01:36:09] Thank you so much to Professor Sperling. [01:36:24] If you haven't already on your way in signed in, and this is one of really fantastic events that the Holocaust center hosts, we have regular lectures coming from overseas. So please make sure you sign up if also you'd like to do give a donation that would be wonderful. There are some refreshments in the back and in this building is the Holocaust center of New Zealand. We're open from Sunday to Friday from 10am to 1pm. have guided tours from volunteers. And if you'd like to come in that time doesn't work for you. You can email us at info at Holocaust, doubt and Zed and you can arrange a time for you to come. So thank you so much. Again, thank you to Michael Clemens for all the tech Help and today for the opening and we hope you have a wonderful day.

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