This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content. You can search the text using Ctrl-F, and you can also play the audio by clicking on a desired timestamp.
Aue wairia ki tēnei te pito o ne tapu. Ka hura rā ka takata ātai ki roto o Takaroa ki te moana o te Whanganui a Tara. Ka tū tēnei ahau ki tēnei te pito o ne tapu kei raro i te tau marumaru o M- o Mātairangi e tū ana, a hei whakaroko atu ki te tangi a te keo. E kui mai nei, e karaka mai nei, e pohiri mai nei ki a mātou hei haramai ki raro. A [00:00:30] nō reira kei raro aua whakaaro ka tuohu ki te mana whenua, te ahi kā o tēnei rohe. A, a Te Atiawa, a Taranaki Whānui whakawhiti atu ki Ngāti Toa Rangatira, a tae nō ki Ngāti Raukawa ki te Tonga. Ko ēna kā ahi kā o tēnei te upoko o te ika a Māui tikitiki a Taraka. Nō reira, a tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou e te ahi kā Uh, kei raro [00:01:30] hoki i au whakaaro ka tū a mātou nei, uh, o Tīwhanawhana, uh, hei tautoko tēnei kaupapa a Kawe Māhara. Uh, nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou Kawe Māhara, tēnā koutou ēnei pūkōrero, uh, rakaitira kua, uh, ka, e noho ana i tēnei rā. Uh, koutou katoa, ka nui te mihi, ka nui te aroha, uh, ki a koutou. E ka hoa, e ka rakaitira, nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, uh, tēnā koutou katoa. Ki a koutou nō Kāuewha kua tatu mai, tēnā koutou. Nau mai, nau mai, haere mai. Uh, tēnā, uh, he mihi nui, he mihi aroha. Tēnā tātou. Ka huri ahau, uh, ki te whati te paraoa mā. Uh, tēnā koutou, everybody. Kia ora and good evening. Uh, greetings, uh, under Mātaitangi, uh, Mount Victoria, and Te Keo that is calling to us to gather below for this [00:02:00] important hui. Our acknowledgements to our ahikaa, to the mana whenua for Te Āti Awa, uh, the other iwi that have kept the home fires burning in this area for countless generations. Um, and under those whakaaro, uh, we dare to say kia ora and tēnā koutou, and it's lovely to be amongst you. Uh, we are Tīwhanawhana, and it's our privilege to be invited to open this, uh, really important gathering and this important, uh, [00:02:30] commemoration series of events that's taking place this month, uh, because of you know why. And isn't liberation a fantastic thing? Um, but greetings also to our, our esteemed guests, and we know you all, and we love you all, and it's a wonderful thing to be here, uh, alongside you as we get to listen to you. So enough of that. We have, uh, a waiata that is a karakia to open. Um, we're gonna hand over to Laurie, who's gonna make some further [00:03:00] intru-introductions and do any briefings. And then we've got one more waiata to share with you before we get to hear our speakers. So I will stop at this point, and, um, we will move forward. So our waiata, uh, uh, karakia is Whakataka te Hau, and you're welcome to join in to singing that if you would like. And, uh, please, if you're able to rise, please do, and we will sing.[00:06:00] Tuia mai i raro, tuia mai i roto, tuia mai i waho. [00:06:30] Kia tau, kia tātou katoa, te mauri tū, me te mauri ora. Haumi e, hui e, tāiki e! Kia ora tātou, me noho Ná mihi nui Richard and te whanawhana. Um Tena koutou katoa. Uh, ko Dr Laurie Le toku ingoa. I'm a board trustee of Kauae Mahara, and I have the absolute pleasure of being your MC for the evening. MC in my case, [00:07:00] uh, stands for mostly cool, uh, not master of ceremonies, so you'll have to put up with my occasional bad humor if I get the chance. But I'm hoping mostly to let everyone else speak tonight. Um, Kauae Mahara Queer Archives Aotearoa warmly welcomes everyone that is here tonight, both in person and online. There are several watch parties going on, so shout out to the Charlotte Museum in Auckland and our board trustee, Tee, who's hosting a watch party. [00:07:30] If you don't know, the Charlotte Museum is the only lesbian museum in the world. I think that deserves a round of applause. And our board chair, Elizabeth Kirikiri, is also hosting a watch party in Gisborne tonight. So shout out to you, Elizabeth. Thanks for your text. Um, and, uh, in case you haven't picked up on everything I've been saying so far, we are recording this. So just be aware that if you ask a question or anything, you are being recorded, [00:08:00] and we have, um, Gareth here from Pride NZ who's r- also recording the whole evening for archival, uh, purposes. Tonight is a very special Queer History Month event, a conversation about the untold stories of the journey to the passing of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, a landmark triumph in queer history and rights. Part of our Queer History Month kaupapa is to encourage activities across the motu which [00:08:30] celebrate, educate, and honor queer history. To this end, this year we have created a very special Queer History Month resource. Uh, we launch tonight our KAHMP pack, which stands for Knowledge And History Pack. You can receive, uh, your free copy of KAHMP, thanks, I, I like the name too, online, uh, from our website, and we've got a few hard copies that you can look at tonight as well. It's [00:09:00] fitting that we're here in the National Library, as this is where Kauae Mahara launched Aotearoa's first ever Queer History Month in July 2024. And we want to acknowledge the library's support tonight, um, of Kauae Mahara. Uh, Kauae Mahara chose July as Aotearoa's Queer History Month primarily to mark the anniversary of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill passing, which passed on the 9th of July 1986. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the [00:09:30] passing, and I encourage you all to visit the 40 Years of Love website to take advantage of the many events that are happening, uh, to honor this. 2026 is also an important, uh, landmark for queer archives. On September 11th, 1986, barely two months after the successful culmination of the Law Reform Campaign, the contents and premises in Wellington of the Lesbian and Gay Rights Resource Center went up in flames, a hate crime. Now, [00:10:00] 40 years later, we sit here holding this event with our new te reo name, Kauae Mahara, in the same building, the Alexander Turnbull, which offered to host our archives after the fire. And next year is the 50th anniversary of Kauae Mahara, or queer archives, so watch this space. Um, I think you can say we have well and truly phoenixed. And as I open the panel up tonight, um, I open it with this reminder. Um, they can throw [00:10:30] bills at us, um, they can even burn us down, but we can walk through the fire, and there's still work to be done. Uh, tonight we have some really special guests who have actually fought through fire. So I'd love for you to, I don't know, join me in clapping, stamping, whatever you do to show love to our wonderful panelists, and I invite Tufanufana for their second waiata.[00:11:00] Uh, kia ora koutou. Uh, I just want to speak to this waiata before we sing it. A little while ago, you might remember there's some fellow up in Auckland called Brian Tamaki who led a pe- a bunch of, um- Never heard of him. No. Not very im- Not very important in the bigger picture of things, but he was a bit of a nuisance a while ago. And, [00:11:30] um, led marching people down Lambton Quay wearing black shirts and, and preaching hate. Uh, and, uh, I want to talk briefly about Te Whanawhana's response, and particularly the response of Kevin Haunui, who's one of the founding tr- trustees alongside Elizabeth Kerekere. Uh, and Kevin's response when we have, uh, major events in our, the life of our community is often to write a waiata.[00:12:00] When we had ILGA here, uh, in the mid-2010s, Kevin wrote a waiata. When Georgina passed away, there was a waiata. And so this is the waiata that Kevin wrote in response to Brian Tamaki. Uh, it's on the papers in front of you. We've got, uh, the words there, and there's a reasonably liberal translation that I have put together to, um, just [00:12:30] share so you can get the nuance of what Kevin wrote. In lots of ways the words speak for themselves. Uh, we're going to sing this and, um, you're welcome to, uh, sing along as you go. Um, but we really want you to understand the, the, uh, impact of the, of the waiata because it's about us. It's about who we are. So kia ora koutou. He [00:13:00] takatāpui noa ahau. E [00:13:30] toko tu moana E tirairaka, e tirairaka, tau fetafeta. E paritu. E [00:14:00] paritu, ka rangiranga. E punaroi mata. E punaroi mata, hohonu rawa. E manu. E manu, ti oriori. E pare raukawa. E pare raukawa, kawa mōtiatia. Ka uru mai. Ka [00:14:30] uru mai, ka uru mai, ka uru mai. Ka uru mai, e aniwaniwa, tūramarima. Kaua e whakarearea. E takata pui no'au Kau ai [00:15:00] whakareia E takata pūino'a[00:15:30] He kōtuku. He kōtuku rere nga tae. Ka uru [00:16:00] mai. Ka uru mai. Ka uru mai. Ka uru mai. Ka uru mai. He aniwaniwa tūramarima. Kaua e whakareia Kauai [00:16:30] fakalelea E mōrihu tāngata, e puta mai rangi ātea[00:17:00] [00:17:30] Ngā mihi te whanauwhanau. That was really special. Um, it is my pleasure to open up the panel tonight. Um, we have Linda Evans, Gavin Young, Dionne Jackson, Tile Vaemua Vernon-Tile, and, um, they will each introduce themselves because I, I like it that way. Um, so if you would all please just take a moment [00:18:00] and introduce yourself. And maybe as you introduce yourself, can you just give us a sentence or two about where you were in life 40 years ago, back in 1986? I, I'll also be s- uh, rifling through some photos and slides from our archives, and I just have to give a quick note. One of them has a typo on it, which is gonna embarrass board trustee Gavin. Instead of Martin Hunt, he has written Martin Hung. I will let you, uh, take from that what you would. Hey. [00:18:30] As Linda said, that is the gayest typo- ... um, in existence. But just if you see that on the slide, we're sorry, Martin. Okay. We'll start with you, uh, Linda. Kia ora koutou, and, uh, kia ora to the Charlotte Museum and to the party in Gisborne as well, and to everyone else online. It's great to be here. In 1985, I was 34. I'd been a political activist since going to university in 1969, and became a feminist and then a [00:19:00] lesbian activist, and was involved in many groups and activities during the 1970s. I'd also been involved in, um, actions relating to law reform and, um, in particular, uh, when, um, the Wall Amendment needed to be opposed in '74, and also there were, um, uh, the Fr- Proposed Freer Bill, which w- came forward, and Gavin's gonna be talking a little bit about some of those. But anyway, suffice to say, um, I was there, uh, during that period. [00:19:30] Um, in '85, I was one of the main presenters of the Wellington Lesbian Radio program, and this became an important way of communicating during that, um, campaign. I was in a, a relationship with Alison Laurie, who'd been an activist since the 1960s, and she enjo- we enjoyed political discussions and arguments- and working together. Um, and we worked together, uh, on many of the groups relating to the, to the bill. Uh, I also worked full time as a [00:20:00] librarian for the Broadcasting Corporation, which was, um... Everyone here probably had a full-time job as well, and that was a pretty amazing tension. Thanks, Linda. Um- Linda and I were just talking, um, recently, and we're wondering, um, how we actually managed to cram everything in, particularly in the first six months of the Fran Wilde bill, because it was so much activism, and we were trying to do full-time jobs, and, you know, everything else as well. So it was, um, yeah, a [00:20:30] lot on. Um, for myself, I was, um, living up about 500 meters up the back of Parliament in Ascot Street, um, which was, you know, really central, and I worked at the Department of Trade and Industry. Um, and subsequently that was split up, and it- it currently, parts of it anyway, are, um, New Zealand Trade and Enterprise, and the trade, um, policy stuff went to, uh, MFAT. Um, so I- I'd got involved in gay liberation when I was at [00:21:00] university in 1976, so that's 50 years ago. And I was thinking I- I have to look up the date, but it was almost exactly today or tomorrow, um, that I went to my first gay liberation meeting. So, so it's sort of an anniversary for me as well. Woo-hoo. And so subsequently after that, I got involved with the National Gay Rights Coalition, which was being set up around that time, and, and so I held various, um, positions. One was international secretary dealing with the, um, International Lesbian and [00:21:30] Gay Association, um, and I was coordinator of the coalition in 1980, and that was around the time of the Freer bill, which I'll talk about a little bit later. So during the, um, campaign around Fran's bill, um, I'd been involved for about 10 years by then, and, um, I was involved... Well, I had been involved with Wellington Gay Liberation, um, but at that time, I was involved with the Campaign for Homosexual Equality, CHE, as it was called. Um, it was at [00:22:00] the more risk-taking end of the spectrum of, of activism, and, um, we worked closely with the Lesbian Coalition. So we used to have, um... Oh, and I was also quite heavily involved in producing Pink Triangle, so that was another thing we ke- tried to keep going during the, during the bill. Um, the... We, we had quite fun meetings, um, with the Lesbian Coalition, working out, um, how we could, um, uh, take actions against our opponents, and then we'd go and implement them. [00:22:30] And, um, so we actually had quite a lot of fun, but we also tried to be quite effective and, um, and quite creative in what we were doing. Um, it seemed, uh... I mean, we knew it was historical, but you know, we lived in the day, and we just did what we, what we sort of thought we had to do. Um, but I guess looking back now, it was historical, but we didn't think of it in quite those, those terms.[00:23:00] Kia ora koutou katoa. Um, my name is Dianne. Um, I was in way back in the... Uh, this picture of me, um, way back in the days. I mean, I was on all the Springbok Tour marches, on the, um, on the Maoriland marches and all of those marches. And when these ones came out, oh, of course, of course- ... we've got to get in here. We've gotta get in here. We've gotta march for us. And [00:23:30] because, like, this one here is by myself, my beautiful darling sister, Chanel Hati, she wrote that, um, support the, support transsexual, support the bill and everything. And with that, I was going around, like, all the pubs and everything for, um, petitions and everything for people. I was just walking straight in the pub and saying, "Would you like to sign this?" Naturally, they didn't realize I was a queen. They thought I was- ... oh, she's a... Yeah. 'Cause I was on Springbok in those days. And [00:24:00] so they signed it. They said, "What's it for?" And I said, "Oh, it's, um, supporting the bill." Then they look at, "Oh. Oh, oh, okay then." They'd say... And they'd junk and stuff. They'll sign it away. So I had all these petitions and everything that I took around to the pubs and everything. So that was my radicalism with these ones here. But I mean, I kept on going. I was on the, um... The last one was the Black Trans Lives Matter. And what we really, this really, really, um, saddens me deeply [00:24:30] is that there's not enough trans, there's not enough queens that get out there and march for our, for our safety. And because what's happening over in America, you know, we've got a coalition government that want to try and grab those what Humpty Trumpty's doing over in Australia, wants to put that into us here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. So, well, we need to fight. Um, we still haven't, um... Yeah. There's still a long way [00:25:00] for us to go, especially us transsexuals. I prefer queen. When I first came out, when I first transitioned way back in '77, 1977, down here, um- That's cool. Some people were probably not even born. And, um, one of my girl- one of my sister, she's since gone now, she said, "Now that you've transitioned and everything, you're a queen." And I went, so from then on, it's always... And I [00:25:30] prefer queen, like my noun would be queen always. Kia ora ra. Uh, uh, I'm Samoan, and I've always been radical, and I've been radical just by the mere fact of having been born, because my parents were among the very first Samoan-European marriages in New Zealand, and I was one of the very first Samoan-European children ever born in New Zealand. Uh, [00:26:00] having been born in, of all places, Palmerston North in 1955- I was still one of the very first. Uh, I'm working class, and I've been an active trade unionist all my working life, whether it was as a food technologist, as a freezing worker, a restaurant worker, or in my last job as a secondary school teacher. Uh, in 1972, in my last year at high school, I wasn't 18, so I wasn't eligible, but I applied for membership of the New Zealand [00:26:30] Homosexual Law Reform Society under an assumed name, and subsequently, once I found the Wellington Gay Liberation address, I joined Wellington Gay Liberation in 1973. So despite living in Palmerston North, completing my degree, from June 1974, I had a lot of regular involvement and contact with Wellington Gay Liberation and many of the leading Wellington Gay Liberation members such as Michael Ross, Ray de la Baker, Robert Wolf, Judith Thames, Dick Morrison, and Ray [00:27:00] Gilmore. And one thing that I've noticed, and especially having seen membership lists, it looks as though I was the only Samoan member of any gay liberation group in New Zealand throughout the 1970s. So in January 1977, I was invited to the meeting to form the National Gay Rights Coalition on condition that I went back to Palmerston North in my last year of university and set up the Manawatu Gay Rights Association, which I did do in March of [00:27:30] 1977, and the proviso was that when I left at the end of 1977, the group was to still be in existence for the following year at least. 50 years later down the track, it's still there. So I think I did that job okay. In terms of 1986, during the time of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill campaign, I was in my eighth year as a freezing worker. So I was working on the freezing works chain, and also organizing with another freezing worker, Malcolm McAllister, [00:28:00] the Manawatu campaign in support of the bill. Uh, so that was me in 1986, and I thought I'd escaped Palmerston North, but I was back living in Palmerston North in 1986. But in 2026, I well and truly left Palmerston North. I'm in Wellington. I am meant to be retired from secondary school teaching, but I think Wellington High School is my second home. 'Cause I spend a lot of time there doing day relief. So that's where I am in 2026, [00:28:30] retired supposedly, still working as a day reliever, still settled in Wellington, thank goodness, and not Palmerston North. Sorry to anyone who comes from Palmerston North. Thanks. It's a good thing Palmerston North isn't having a watch party or no, I'm just kidding. They may be. Um, Verna, and I think we'll stay with you. Um, tonight's, uh, event is called Untold Stories. So when you think about the homosexual law reform movement, what [00:29:00] stories do you feel are still missing or maybe untold or even undertold? Uh, a story that is missing or not fully told is the contribution of the 1985 Manawatu Homosexual Law Reform Bill campaign to the overall national bill campaign. It is suggested and intimated in the book 20 Years On, so it is alluded to, but not a lot of detail. Uh, [00:29:30] the Manawatu Gay Rights Association, MAGRA, was considering a campaign supporting the bill, and I was given the responsibility and trusted by MAGRA to organize such a campaign in the Manawatu. So Malcolm MacAllister, who was there right at the start of Auckland Gay Liberation in March 1972 with Ngahuia Te Awekotuku. Uh, so Malcolm MacAllister and I, so Malcolm was an old-timer, bit more old-timer than me. So both of us, on [00:30:00] behalf of MAGRA, and with the knowledge and support of like-minded people on the Wellington Gay Task Force, we organized the campaign in the Manawatu to show how a mass action campaign to support the bill could be launched and successfully carried out. Uh, Malcolm MacAllister attended Wellington Gay Task Force meetings, and he kept relevant people in the Wellington Gay Task Force updated as to what we were organizing up in the Manawatu. So the two of us, freezing workers at [00:30:30] Longburn Freezing Works, embarked on a campaign to get support built in the Manawatu for the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in late March of 1985 and onwards. And we're trying to build not just the conventional lobbying, letter-writing campaign of MPs, but also trying to build a broad coalition of support groups for the bill outside of the existing gay groups and organizations, a mass public action campaign. That was pretty easy in the [00:31:00] Manawat- that was pretty easy in the Manawatu 'cause there's only one gay group. Uh, using our established contacts, during April 1985, Malcolm and I met with trade unions, women's groups, Māori activist groups, Labor Party activists, and various community and social groups. So at the end of April 1985, Malcolm's personal letter and my letter on behalf of MAGRA were both sent to the Wellington s- Gay Task Force saying there sh- this should be the way the [00:31:30] campaign should be run. This is what we're doing in the Manawatu, and this is the reasons why we're doing it, to show you that it could be done. So this is also documented in the 20 Years On booklet, and I still have the original documents from that time of getting that sorted out. By the end of May, support for the bill was coming through from a range of organizations in Manawatu. The Manawatu Bill support meeting that was organized for the 7th of May 1985 in Palmerston North [00:32:00] had to be postponed because Fran Wilde was not available. Finally, on Monday the 17th of June 1985, the Manawatu meeting was held at the YWCA Hall in Church Street, where Fran Wilde spoke, and she was apt to see the broad-based campaign supporting the bill that had been organized in the Manawatu and its signi- and its significance and potential for support for the bill in other areas of New Zealand. The view was basically, if it can be done in [00:32:30] Palmerston North, then it could be done in the main cities of New Zealand. So on the 11th of July 1985, Wellington held the launching meeting of the coalition to support the bill at the Hotel Workers Union Hall in Marion Street, Wellington. Now, as an act of solidarity f- to the Wellington group from the Manawatu group, we still did our organizing of starting to get together a similar coalition without actually forming the coalition. We thought it was right that the [00:33:00] Wellington group should get that up and running first, and that's what we did. So that it was not until about a month later on the 27th of August 1985, the Manawatu had their meeting to establish a coalition to support the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in the Manawatu. So the Manawatu coalition was delayed to give Wellington, in particular, and the other main cities a chance to get underway first, and was also due to Malcolm [00:33:30] MacAllister being busy with the Wellington Bill campaign for the Wellington Gay Task Force. So that also held us up. But I think we... yeah, Malcolm and I consciously decided, we know we've got everything in place, but Wellington needs to go first, and we'll come in after that. So that was our act of solidarity for building the campaign for supporting the Homosexual Law Reform Bill in the Manawatu in relation to what was happening in particularly Wellington, let alone other places in New Zealand. So that's [00:34:00] a story that's starting to come out, and I do... I am the only one in the country that's got all of the documentation for the Manawatu campaign, and that's not because I'm a hoarder. It's just because I ended up with all the stuff, and I held onto it because I knew that it was important at some stage to have that story told and to have that, uh, documentation passed on, obviously, to Kaua Mahara. Thanks. Thanks, Vernon.[00:34:30] Now, Linda, um, the book that Vernon referred to, you actually co-authored that book. And I know something that you're often asked is, uh, why were lesbians so involved in the movement, and I was wondering if you could speak to that. Thanks, Laurie. Um, yes, it's kind of, um... It always intrigues me actually that people, the m- one of the most common questions I get is, "Why were lesbians involved?" And, um, it was kind of like, it's sort [00:35:00] of, um, alwa- even, even sometimes some lesbians these days. But, um- B- because we like to be involved in things We don't want to be left out. So but, uh, I think it's really important to, um, look at how, you know, what was the situation for lesbians, um, in, uh, before, certainly before any attempts at homosexual law reform, and even during the many attempts. Because, um, although sex between women was generally not a crime, [00:35:30] um, m- lesbians were basically treated as though they were criminal. So we didn't get prison sentences, but the, all the other sort of punishments that you could get for being, um, gay or being what- however you would identify, and many people were identified as homosexual or camp or, um, other identities as well as lesbian. Um, those punishments were there, and included, um, problems with work, with jobs, being dismissed from jobs or forced [00:36:00] out of work, even including in, in some ways especially in the public service and defense forces, places like that. Um, uh, accommodation, um, access to goods and services. Um, and for lesbians in particular, um, who had children, almost impossible to have maintain custody of, um, children after separation. Uh, and, and also the other area, uh, was, um, in kind of forced mental [00:36:30] health treatments, which, um, you know, were, um, often, uh, uh, given to lesbians under pressure from families and other people. So, so there was plenty of ways that lesbians were affected by the fact homosexuality was illegal. And, um, in addition, um, you know, they- lesbians were very much part of the early cultures, like the, the post-World War II cultures that were developing in the cities where there were, um, y- social groups and [00:37:00] networks, sometimes mixed, sometimes single sex. Uh, and in fact, interestingly, in 1961, um, the first, the only, um, kind of offense, um, that involved sex between women was introduced into the Crimes Act, and that was between, uh, a woman over 20 and a girl under 16. So there was that one area of, um, criminality. Um, so, uh, lesbians j- as well, and as well as, um, [00:37:30] suffering those effects, like i- all the other, um, parts of the culture that later became LGBTIQ, you know, all the different communities and networks, um- They also, of course, developed a really strong culture of resistance and humor, and all of the strengths that you think of that have been gathered in our various communities over the years. So it seemed important. The other part of it that I th- that was really important [00:38:00] to me was that almost every time there was some attempt to decriminalize homosexuality or homosexual acts between men, there was a threat to include lesbians in whatever law eventuated. So that meant if a, a attempt failed, then lesbians could be criminalized. If an attempt, um, didn't, um, make the age of consent of 16, then lesbians would, especially young lesbians of course, would be affected by that if the [00:38:30] age of consent was 18 or 21, and they did get included. So to me, that was a really important motivation for being included. Um, then the other area that, um, gradually lesbians became more aware of was the potential for anti-discrimination legislation and how that could help. And, um, probably we c- 'cause, um, certainly I came from more of a liberation movement perspective, so the idea of human rights was a bit, was kind of foreign to me. I couldn't quite [00:39:00] get, get it for a while. Gavin was talking about and I was like, "Mm, don't know about that as a strategy." But, um, anyway. But then, of course, the National Gay Rights Coalition, they made a submission to the Human Rights Commission, uh, which had been, um, set up in 1977. Um, the... And then it hadn't included sexual orientation despite submissions at the time, so the NGRC made another submission to them. And, um, then a report was issued by the then chief commissioner saying [00:39:30] some forms of discrimination should be legal, and this is one. So it's like, oh, you know, they're saying we should be discriminated against. Well, of course that, nothing's gonna get more of a reaction from lesbians than that. So lesbians did become a lot more motivated following that, and the kind of campaign that we had against, um, those provision, those, that position by the Human Rights Commission. They did, um, reverse it later during law reform, but they held it for about five years. Um, [00:40:00] so yeah, basically, um, lesbians were involved, I guess, in all of the attempts at, um, law reform. And once the, once it became clear that it wasn't just the parliamentary campaign in 1985, and there was this really strong opposition, and that it was a religious right-wing opposition that we'd met in the anti-abortion movement, we'd met in the anti-feminist movement, in the opposition to the, um, declaration on the rights of [00:40:30] women, all kinds of areas, that b- that b- that rang a lot more bells. And this is kind of like there's a lot more involved here, and this is really important to be active in. So that's a long explanation No, that was great. Thanks, Linda. All right, I'm gonna circle back to you, Queen. Um, there's this famous photo of you, which we've already touched on a little bit, in the 1985 [00:41:00] march. Can you tell us a bit about the banner and why you were carrying it, and what the role of the trans community was in homosexual law reform? I was protesting all over the place, so this happened to come up about the homosexual law reform, so I jumped on that. Asked my friends, "Would you like to come along? Do yous want to come and help me?" Da, da, da. And a lot of them, "No, no." 'Cause my friends, all the queens that I was [00:41:30] growing with down here in Wellington, we were all out there nightclubbing, street walking, all of those things there, so- We didn't have enough time to go out to protest about, about these ones. I did, though. But, um, I, I've been protesting since young. I was at high school at Fielding ED- Fielding Cultural High when I first went on my Maori land march. So I've been going all the way right through till I[00:42:00] got back down here to spring back to our marches. Sorry. It's okay. Yeah, so, um, can I read all these victories and everything they've been good here? Yeah, go for it, as long as you hold the mic. Up towards me. Sorry, I'm, I... This is new to me. I mean, I don't do this. You're doing great. Thank you. Thank you.[00:42:30] First victory, the Human Law Reform submitted into Parliament by Labor's MP, Brian Wilde, on the 8th of March, passed in 1986, 49 votes for and 44 against. What changes have I seen in the last 40 years? Well, that was the first victory for our rainbow community, our LGBTQIA plus two spirits people. I know it's such a long name that, oh my gosh, [00:43:00] with all those alphabet names and you know, you know the two spirits, don't you? I do. Yes. Um, other victories would follow that pathway in time. 2003, victory two, the Prostitution Law Reform Act, the PRA submitted to Parliament the 25th of September 2000 by Labor's MP Tim Barnett, passed 60 [00:43:30] votes to 59 against Because a member of Parliament, a Muslim, Ashraf Choudhary, um, abstained from voting maybe because of his religious reason. Victory three was our Civil Unions Act passed December ninth, two thousand and four, um, came into effect with support from most [00:44:00] parties, sixty-nine votes to fifty-nine, and it was in April twenty-sixth, two thousand and five. Victory four, same-sex marriage passed twenty thirteenth, seventy-seven votes to forty-four. The trans community have had our victories with the de-decriminalization of sex work, meaning no more arrests, court dates, and harassment [00:44:30] by police. Yeah, thanks, Dame Catherine Healy. You are our lady. Also acknowledgement to our wonderful brother, Jack Boon, and his beautiful colleagues through the Human Rights Commission obtained the rights of trans in New Zealand to, if they can, if they wish to have an F on their birth certificate. But the [00:45:00] majority say that knowing we can is good enough, and it remains there for the next generation, and which is to be a world first. Um, what do we think are the anomalies? Um, similarities, common they share between all these laws. First and foremost, they followed the mi-- the first idea, which was to create a [00:45:30] safe space for marginalized people within the rainbow community, and that foundation was the first. The Awhina Center to being later named the AIDS Foundation, now the Burnett Center. WIDE, Wellington Intravenous Drug Education, now called the DHD Drugs Project, and the NCPC, New Zealand Prostitutes Collective, now [00:46:00] called Aotearoa New Zealand Sex Workers Collective. Te Waka Kaimahi Kai Rau o Aotearoa. Thank you, Dion. That was really great. S- it's good to be reminded of how much history there is, and I'm, I'm always, like, astounded sometimes when I hear how narrowly some of this legislation, um, passed, and I'm reminded of, of the work that, that needs to, to [00:46:30] be done yet. Gavin, um, on that note, how, how can we hope to sort of understand our history in this way? Okay. I'd, I'd like to break it into two parts. Um, one is talking about some of my own learnings, um, about our, our history and how to understand it, and then an example which is the Dorian Society, which, uh, was the first, um, homosexual, formal homosexual club that was formed in 1962. Um, so some of you will know, [00:47:00] um, I've been doing some research and some writing lately, and, um, I've actually learned a lot about the process, um, of, of our history, and that's what I'd like to share a little bit with you. But first, um, can I just ask you to imagine we're in 2076, so 50 years from now, and those people are looking back at us, and they're saying, you know, "This is what they were doing. Isn't that stupid," you know? "Why did they do that?" You know. So just have a think about that. How [00:47:30] would you like to be remembered in 50 years' time? Um, and, and how do you think people will remember, remember what we're doing now? Um, so my, my learnings have been that obviously history's not contained in one book or one article or anything like that, but it's a kaleidoscope of many, many, many stories, um, of people and many perspectives. And some of those perspectives will conflict with each other, and over time they get resolved, um, and, you know, through evidence and, and debate.[00:48:00] Um, I've had the privilege over the last four years of, or of doing four years of research, and people, and a number of people here, and I think probably some in, in the other centers that are listening, um, have been generous in sharing their stories, thousands of stories with me. Um, so we have a, a really rich tapestry of our history. But those stories, um, all can't be told in, in, in one book or one article, and I think it's incumbent on any researchers or writers, [00:48:30] uh, to preserve those stories. So, um, what I'd advocate, uh, very strongly is what you don't use, what hasn't been told, should be preserved in a reservoir, and Kari Mahara is a good reservoir if you're looking for it. So that, that they're preserved for others to use in future, um, because, you know, we don't wanna lose, um, the stories that, um, you know, uh, that people have given us. I think to understand our history, um, historians [00:49:00] and writers have a responsibility also to respect, um, those who went before. Now, um- It's, it's easy, I think, to judge by today's values, and I've certainly done that. Um, but I think to understand people, you've gotta kinda look at yesterday's values and look at the world that they were in and what, uh, experiences shaped their lives, um, what attitudinal, legal, religious, and other factors, [00:49:30] um, constrained and shaped the world that they lived in. Um, because, um, in terms of the movement, it was the work that people have done in the past that have piece by piece, uh, got us to where we are today. So, you know, understanding how they did it and what, what they were up against is quite useful. And, and the issues, um, in the 1960s and '70s and '80s were quite different than they are now, uh, in many ways. So [00:50:00] that's really useful to understand Um, and also when I look at some of the things that are happening today, um, I mean the good things, um, I, I just pinch myself and think, "Oh, well, is this really happening?" 'Cause, uh, they're issues that we would have had to fight really hard on, and now they just sort of happen as a matter of course. So, um, I think that's really cool to see some of the things that have been achieved. Uh, now to give an example, um, as I said, the, the Dorian Society was the first homosexual club. Um, but have a think [00:50:30] about the early 1960s, social attitudes were conservative. Homosexuals, um, as others have said, were considered sick, sinful, sex between men was criminal, um, and people went to prison for having sex together, um, men did. Um, and that also included trans who hadn't transitioned. So if, if they were physically still men, then they were subject to the law if they were having sex with other men. Um, so lack of information, um, l- also [00:51:00] left people wondering, you know, a number of people that I've interviewed wondered whether they were the only people in the world that felt like, like they do. Um, and you know, just there was no social media, there was, you know, there was no internet, there was no Google. So how do you find out, you know? You have to go to what was called the Encyclopedia Brit- Britannica or even the dictionary, some people, and it wasn't good information in there either. So it was really hard to find and, and even if you did [00:51:30] find a, a, a definition, how did then, how then did you find oth- other people? So it was quite hard, and that's why the, the Dorian Society and subsequently other clubs were really important. And the police were to be feared as well. You know, they, they used to, um, uh, arrest people, take them in, and, uh, they'd intimidate them and, and get confessions, and then they'd go to prison. Um, you know, they would go to court, and then they'd go to prison. And, um, I've read numerous cases [00:52:00] like that, and it was really, um, a, a pretty horrible environment. Now, th- also the people that, that were involved in the Dorian Society, if you think about it, they had a lot to lose personally. You know, Claude Tanner was the, um, was the first president, and he was involved in the National Orchestra. John Mackay was a l- a young lawyer. Um, Innes Law was an accountant. Case Kuje had been involved in retail. John Crosbie, some of you will know, he was famous for cross-dressing, but he was one of the best window [00:52:30] dressers in Wellington. He used to do all the department stores and everything. And, um, and then there was also Jack Goodwin, who, uh, was a journalist, but he was quite lucky because he worked for the education, educational institute, was it? And, um, and they, he was open about who he was and, and they sort of accepted that, which was quite unusual at the end of the day. Um- And so they were a group of pretty, um, brave young, young men that, that formed that club, [00:53:00] or largely young men. Um, but what they worried about was the law and, and as Linda talked about, in 1961, Parliament added a clause that, um, was, uh, about keeping a place of homosexual resort, and they worried about whether that would apply to their club. Um, in the end, they, they decided that it wouldn't, but they were worried about getting imprisoned if the police had, had, had raided the club, and they were also worried about serving alcohol and, um, and, you know, generally police raids. [00:53:30] So, um, what they established was a club that lasted for 26 years, so it was pretty successful, and it was the really main social club in Wellington for a long time. Um, and although it was largely a club for, um, homosexual men or later gay men, um, they did experiment for a time with, with lesbians, although, um, I don't think that particularly worked out for them. Um and, um, but it was a little while before the lesbians had their own club. [00:54:00] Um, I think that was early '70s, wasn't it? Um, Club 41. Over 10 years. Yeah, yeah. The Dorian also set up a, a legal subcommittee which, um, looked at, at legal issues and also informing their, their members better, um, of the law. Um, and they also started approaching some known liberals, um, for advice and support on whether they might be able to form an organization, um, separate that would focus on law reform. And eventually, in 1967, that organization was [00:54:30] the Homosexual Law Reform Society that was formed. Um, and it adopted a view, um, largely, uh, thought to be pretty prag- pragmatic in the day that the best that could be achieved would be an age of consent of 20 or 21, and then it would be at least a two-step process for Parliament to then bring it down to 18 or 16. Um- And so that was the conventional thinking, but even Parliament baulked at that idea in 1968. So it was pretty conservative environment. [00:55:00] Um, the next generation was, um, formed groups called Gay Liberation in the early, uh, 1970s. And, um, those people, including myself, thought that Homosexual Law Reform Society were very conservative, um, looking at, um, looking at them at that time. And by today's values, of course, they'd be considered very timid. But actually, if you look in the wider context of what they were doing and the world in which they operated, they were actually quite [00:55:30] radical, and they did push a lot of boundaries. Um, and, and s- in lots of ways, they were equal to the, the efforts of later, uh, generations. So, um, just, just to end then, um, everything that we've got today has been built on the shoulders of all those who went before. And so I think it's really incumbent to understand the world in which, uh, they lived and, and the issues that they faced. Um, and it, it may help us today to be aware of the future [00:56:00] issues, um, that we ourselves are going to face. And history, as we know, um, works in cycles, and so that's worth thinking about as well. Thank you. Thanks, Gavin. Um, I really like this idea of history as a kaleidoscope. And so Linda, I was wondering if you could just briefly touch on, I know you've s- talked about how there were some actions and events [00:56:30] that you thought were more successful than others as parts of homosexual law reform. And could you speak to bit about what worked or didn't work and sort of the political and philosophical differences among the supporters? And we'll maybe keep the next part quite brief so we have time to open it up to the audience Yes, um, we really, I mean, especially once it became clear that it was going to be this big public campaign, we really had to bring all of the diverse strengths, [00:57:00] experiences to bear on, you know, m- for creating that campaign. And I think, um, it w- it ended up being a combination of what Gavin was talking about from the maybe even the '60s, which was more of a public education approach, and, um, then, and the more kind of confronting aspects, um, which came more from the gay liberation, women's liberation, and lesbian, um, liberation. And I think, um, it ... So there had to be room for [00:57:30] everybody to do what they could manage, and many people did. They did amazing things. Um, so I, I think it was quite ... One of the things that was really quite interesting to cope with, say for someone like me, who was more interested in challenging and confronting, you know, heterosexism, the way society was organized, um, to have to think, okay, well, these people are going s- they're signing, putting their names to petitions. They're saying that we, [00:58:00] um, should be criminalized. We should be, um, discriminated against and that, so how can we reach them? And I think a lot of, um, w- what, one of the things that I thought was really important was that many courageous, um, LGBT, um, you know, networks, members of networks actually talked to their families, to their whānau, takatāpui talked on marae about the implications of what was happening. Um, the Chinese Dykes [00:58:30] group talked, uh, to their whānau. Others talked to their coworkers, um, to, to, um, their friends, um, even to people in the street, and I think all of that was incredibly... That's kind of that, that sort of personal stuff is quite hard to do, and we had to sort of draw on all of the kind of intersections of the different parts of our identity 'cause, I mean, none of us are just, you know, lesbian or gay or bisexual or trans or what- or takatāpui. We're, [00:59:00] um, we're a number of other identities too, so we had to, had to somehow use all those connections, and that kind of led also to a bit of what Vernon was talking about of, um, of creating alliances with people. Often they had been al- allies in the past, but not always. Um, there were just a couple of other areas that I just wanted to mention briefly. Um, one of the, the debates that is still there, um, and is, um, was strong and it just had to be one thing that you [00:59:30] just said, okay, we think differently, was, um, are we born that way or not? And, um, that was quite, um, a strong difference, especially when it came to, um, to, um, responding to right-wing propaganda. religious propaganda. Um, the other one that we had quite a extensive discussion about is should we out hypocritical opponents, people who oppo- opposed the, um, the bill, um, but members in our, or people from the, in the communities [01:00:00] knew that these people had had same-sex encounters at least, if not more. And, um, you know, what should we do with that information? And, and we decided in the end that, uh, you know, to do, to go that way could easily backfire against us, reinforced homophobia, and wasn't a good tactic. So we did, had general agreement not to do that. So there's, it, it's just, there were so many, um, different debates and, um, uh, different strategies and tactics that came up in such a [01:00:30] big sprawling campaign that it is really interesting to think about for today's issues. The other thing I just wanted to mention really quickly, reiterate what others have said, that it was very much a national campaign. People were involved from all over the country. And speaking about, you know, the Lesbian Coalition, we had a particularly close relationship with the Auckland Lesbian Coalition and, um, in particular, one of the spokespeople there, Sandy Hall, who'd been involved since the first ever lesbian organization in Christchurch. So, [01:01:00] and you know, we had contacts, we had mammoth toll bills, 'cause those days you had to r- ring people up. Or you could write them a letter. Letters did get there a lot quicker than they do now. So, you know, that was something that's actually- And a lot cheaper. Yeah. And that, but, but yes, so, so communication's a whole other thing, but I won't go there. So interesting. Um, Vernon, I just wanna pick up on what Linda was saying about intersectionality, and I know you've already talked a little bit about it, but, um, could you just [01:01:30] speak again briefly about how factors like not just geography, but gender, class, race, um, end up shaping whose stories get recorded and part of the archive, and whose aren't? And, um, who are the people doing the quiet behind the scenes work that didn't make it into official histories? Uh, I'd like to start off with looking at class as a factor, and I think there is one untold story in terms of the fight for [01:02:00] homosexual law reform in relation to the Trotskyist organization Socialist Action League. Now, the history of homosexuals internationally does generally show that our community has been able to carve out a space to exist in working class suburbs, left-wing political groupings, and trade unions. And I wanna pick up on the New Zealand experience. Now, the Socialist Action League was a Marxist Trotskyist working class [01:02:30] party. All gay and lesbian members of the Socialist Action League from March of 1972 were heavily involved in gay liberation in Auckland, Wellington, and Christchurch. So we're talking about people like Berth Roth's daughter, Janet Roth, Nigel Bomba, Joan Shields, Dick Morrison, Malcolm McAllister, Lindsay Taylor, and people like Tim Burks and Trish Cuthbert. Now, those members brought knowledge and [01:03:00] organizational skills into gay liberation, into the areas where they joined in New Zealand. So they brought organizational skills and knowledge from the women's movement, from the anti-Vietnam War movement, and also the anti-tour movement that was developing even in the late '60s, early '70s. Now, the Socialist Action League also had access to their counterpart in the US, which was the Socialist Workers Party. They had access to their papers and [01:03:30] their activities in the US gay liberation movement. Now, what's been forgotten is that, and it was, and I was reminded of it by Malcolm McAllister, that it was due to the Socialist Action League's clarity in making repeal and no discrimination as the political focus of gay liberation. That was there right from March of 1972, and it's persisted ever after. So it was the defining- For all [01:04:00] fights for homosexuals, for homosexual law reform, right through from the start of gay liberation, right through to the 1985 Homosexual Law Reform Bill. They were actively promoting no r- uh, full repeal and no discrimination right from the start, and that was fought for extensively in all three main gay liberation groups in New Zealand. Apart from the gay magazines that were available, the only other organization that had a newspaper that [01:04:30] promoted and discussed and, uh, had newspaper articles about gay liberation activities and actions, was the Socialist Action newspaper put out by Socialist Action League. And when I joined the Socialist Action League in 1976, I very quickly became one of those regular reporters to Socialist Action on gay liberation activities and actions. Now, in 1985, the Socialist Action League put out a pamphlet called [01:05:00] The Homosexual Law Reform Bill: A Union Issue, and that was widely distributed to workers and trade unions. So even I remember giving it out to Longburn Freezing Works at the gates. So that was a bit of the work that was done with trade unions and workers by the Socialist Action League, outside of the formal, uh, campaign for promoting the homosexual law ref- for, for promoting support for the Homosexual Law Reform Bill. So right from the start in [01:05:30] 1985, Socialist Action League members at all meetings of the Wellington Gay Taskforce, and elsewhere in New Zealand, pushed for the need to reach out for allies, which eventually happened. Now, it's interesting that the 12-member steering committee that was set up at the initial meeting of the Wellington Coalition to support the bill on the 11th of July, 1985, of the 12 members, three of them were Socialist Action League members. So we're talking about Malcolm McAllister, Dick [01:06:00] Morrison, and Christine Beresford, who still lives in, who still lives in, lives in Petone. And the fourth person was a former Socialist Action League member who was still associated with it, and that person was teaching at Wellington High School at the time, Mike Wakehorn. So it's interesting that in 1985, the steering committee to build the coalition had 25%... had 25- had a third of its members being from the Socialist Action League, so you've got to think something's going on there. [01:06:30] So an untold story is this important connection and influence of Socialist Action League, a working class political organization, and the fight for homosexual law reform. And I did notice that Bill's in the audience, so I would like to acknowledge, Bill, that although you weren't a Socialist Action League member, uh, you were a fellow traveler on the Marxist-Trotskie pathway Um, the other area which I'll try- which I'll keep short is the factor of geography in terms of whose story gets told or not [01:07:00] told. Now, there were many people in our community, in Aotearoa, doing the untold, quiet, behind-the-scenes work that was necessary for servicing our communities leading up to and including 1985 and 1986. In terms of geography, the main cities were generally covered, but not so the provincial cities and towns where there were active groups. So it's easy for me to identify the Manawatu Gay Rights Association as an example of [01:07:30] this. Uh, as I said, the Manawatu Gay Rights Association is Aotearoa's longest-running rainbow community organization. It is a huge untold story that conceals within it why, next year in 2027, it is still around and will be able to celebrate 50 years, half a century, of being in existence. Despite some group name rejigging, and, [01:08:00] and despite some structures of form and, uh, focus, it's still around. So it is a marvelous example of achievement of service to Manawatu rainbow community members by unsung heroes and their untold stories that have kept this group going. So I would like to particularly mention that Matthew Keane has basically kept it going for the last two and a half to three decades, but also MAGRA owes a [01:08:30] debt to a number of individuals that have played a major role in MAGRA over the decades, and that's the reason why it's still here today. So I'm t- I won't mention everybody, but I'm thinking in terms of Peter Pawson, Kevin Bastian, Jules Neville, Paul Reynolds, Sharon Carlyon, uh, F- Fuimano Mau Pilatu Endaman, uh, Ian Harris, Eddie Johnson, Adrian, and Bill Armstrong, and Bernard McAvenue in particular. So that's an example of geography that I think does need to be looked [01:09:00] at before a lot of people die who were around when there were fledgling active gay groups in the centers outside of Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. Thanks very much. Thanks. Um- We are pretty much out of time or over time for this part of the panel, but I just wanna give, um, you, Dionne and Gavin, just a chance to say anything else you wanna say, um, maybe just in a minute or [01:09:30] two. So sorry about that. Um, but we do wanna give the audience a chance to, to ask questions. So, um, I know, Dionne, you wanted to talk a little bit about unity and connection, uh, across our communities today, and where you feel like there's still work to be done. So do you wanna just take a moment to- It's just that, um- Can we give Dionne the mic, please? Oh. Thanks. It's just that we need to come together as one. You know, like, there's not too many... Ti [01:10:00] Panepan is one of them. They're just big out to, to Ti Panepan for, for beer, kapa haka, and everything, but other little groups and everything. I've got a small group out at Upper Hutt, where I've pulled in people from Kapiti Coast, Wellington, Lower Hutt. But still it's not, um... It's getting out there to the public, you know, like, "No, my, how am I? Come along. Come along," you know, "Come along. Join our group." And, [01:10:30] um, yeah. There's still not that, um- And it's sad, it's sad. You know, like I always have the girls coming to say, "When are you gonna have a group? When are you gonna..." I say, "Oh, sure, sure, sure, sister. Yeah, when I've got time and everything." So that's another challenging too, is, um, growing mature- Mm. -growing a bit more mature in age and trying to organize all these things and everything too, so. Yeah, that's challenging- Yeah. -in [01:11:00] itself. Yeah. Thank you. Um, Gavin, just to, to close it off, um, again, keep, if you can keep it brief, just what is, um, one untold story you would like to tell? And it's gonna have to be the, the CliffsNotes version of it. Yeah. Um, for, for me, the, the big issue really was the age of consent. Um, and today it seems really odd that we would even debate, uh, equality, uh, but that was the huge issue that was debated in the '70s [01:11:30] and, and '80s, and fought over. And, um, it really was a debate between the, um, uh, pragmatic and, and, and principled, and I don't, I don't wanna sort of make too much of that, but it's, it was a principled position of 16 or nothing, or a pragmatic one that Parliament will accept this. And so that was the kinda, uh, divergence, and ultimately there was a lot of fights within the movement, and, and ultimately we got to a position where [01:12:00] we were largely on the same page, which is how we got to Fran Wilde's bill with an age of consent of 16 and the Human Rights Commission part. And even within that, um, Fran called a meeting in 1986 when the bill was going through the committee stages Parliament, and it was being amended, and she said to us, "We've lost the human rights part. We haven't got support." Um, and she said, "We've got support for 18, an age of consent of 18, uh, but we haven't got support [01:12:30] for 16. What do you wanna do?" So she put it back on us. Other MPs would've said, "Well, we're gonna put it through at 18." She didn't. She said, "What do, what do you wanna do?" And we said, "16 or nothing." And so it was a high-stakes game at that point. It was like a game of poker. It was a winner takes all, and we took all in the end. So we were, we were fortunate, but it was, it was holding out for what we wanted and forcing the MPs to go out of their comfort zone to support that. Um, and I, I guess, you know, [01:13:00] uh, it was worthwhile doing, but there was a lot of debate and argument over it. Yeah, we need more of- We need more MPs like Fran Wilde. Um, we wanna make sure that there's time, and we do have just a few moments for the audience to ask some questions. But before we do, um, I realize that there's someone really special in the audience. Um, and so I'm gonna hand it over to Linda. Um, we wanted from the, um... Because we're [01:13:30] looking at this as a, as a struggle that went on from, um, the early 1960s through to 1986, um, at Kaua'e Mahara, we wanted to acknowledge some of the people who were really, uh, active in the, um, 1960s, and there's a couple of them are able to be here tonight. Um, so the first person that we wanted to recognize is Brett Rawnsley, who was there at the beginning of the, um, Dorian So- Society that, um, [01:14:00] Gavin talked about. Also, he was involved in the legal subcommittee. Um, we wanted to acknowledge someone who's not here, who, who's John McKay, who's in the Hawke's Bay, who was actually the person who w- suggested the legal subcommittee and did a lot of work towards it, a lawyer. And so, you know, these people did a fantastic job starting things out. So Brett, we just wanted to acknowledge your work, plus also what was fantastic for us is that you were then, you were involved in 1985, [01:14:30] '86. So I mean, you've, you... I know you spent some time out of the country, but you've been involved in lots of things over the years, and, um, many tales to tell, I know, about a lot of your friends and, and about the work you've done. And then the other person we wanted to acknowledge tonight is, um, Chris Parkin, who again was very active in the '60s in the New Zealand Homosexual Law Reform Society. In fact, there's a, a quite well-known photo of him as [01:15:00] one of the members of the executive that, that presented the petition to the committee in Parliament in 1968. Um, and then later was a very, um, effective and valuable chair of the, um, trust of, for what was then the Lesbian and Gay Archives. So, um, we wanted to acknowledge your work as well from the 1960s on for many years. Thank you very much, Chris. So, um, Brett, did, did you-[01:15:30] I know the time's pushed, but Brett, did you have anything you wanted to comment on that you've picked up on? How many hours have you got? No. Well, that's the thing, we don't. As Linda has just said, I was a founding member of the Dorian Society centuries ago, you know. Sort of the mists of time unveil almost. How old were you then? [01:16:00] Uh, beg your pardon? How old were you at the, at the founding? Oh, around hundred and twenty-seven or something. I don't know. Oh, right. I, I never tell anyone how old I am. I, I find it inappropriate. Okay. Sorry about that. But, um, I thank you for your comments. I'll tell you one thing. Back then, there were no gay men in New Zealand at all. I'm not joking. There were camp men. Mm. Yeah. And some of you will understand what I'm getting at. [01:16:30] In 1946, in Holland, an organization called the COC was set up with their own club rooms. It was a front organization. It was really a gay club, okay? This is after World War II, and they still exist. And that was the first gay club in the [01:17:00] whole world. There were gay bars, of course, uh, surreptitiously gay. Now, here's my point. In New Zealand, with the laws that we had at the time, the Dorian Society was the second gay club in the entire world. That, that I think is something that, to me, uh, creates [01:17:30] an enormous, um... Well, it, it tells me something, that we managed in New Zealand to do that. Now, in Holland, they changed the law. Not in New Zealand. The Dorian Society went for twenty-seven years, all right? And spawned a number of other gay clubs throughout New [01:18:00] Zealand. The Aquarius Club in Auckland, another one in Hamilton. There's Hawke's Bay, Whanganui, uh, Christchurch. And the paradox that I'm trying to point out here is simply this: gays, gay men, got away with all this and flourished and set the, uh, sowed the seeds, if you like, [01:18:30] for what became law reform, gay liberation, and everything that- You, you, ladies and gentlemen have spoken about that resulted eventually in law reform. How did we get away with it? I don't know. But we did, and we had a bloody good time while we were at it, I might add.[01:19:00] So I just, I just make that contrast, and I have researched the issue of gay clubs i- worldwide. I've contacted the librarians of a number of gay archives around the world, in Britain, America, different places, to see if they have any record of other similar organizations. They don't. [01:19:30] So it appears that we actually, in little old New Zealand, started the second gay club in the entire world, and ran it for 27 years before the law got changed. That... I just wanted to tell that story, 'cause I think it, it, well, it gives a lot of food for thought. I could tell a lot of other stories, but, um- Well, just stick with the[01:20:00] ones tonight ... you've gotta go home, you know? So. Also, Brit's given a number of interviews to people over the years. I hope that was an interesting little story. Yes. Thank you. And thank you for your, all your work over many years. Um, Chris, did you have any words you wanted to say? Uh, I think all I would want to say is that, uh, it's been 60 years since I was first involved with groups looking at the law in particular, [01:20:30] and I think what became most important to me over the years was the fact that a law reform was very limited, and that it was necessary to think bigger. Mm. And in the process of doing that for myself, I've grown, I've got to know a lot of people. I've, uh, enjoyed some good times, seen some difficult times, um, [01:21:00] but I think the future is bright, and, uh, uh, that's a good place perhaps to leave that comment. Koa. Thank you. I think that's actually probably a good place to, to wrap things up, as much as I wanted to get... I even had text message questions coming through from, from other parts of the country. But, um, yeah, we don't want this... It's 40 years, and the [01:21:30] panel's gonna turn into 40 hours if we don't, um, if we don't wrap it up. But, um, just as, as we close, I, I wanna take a moment to acknowledge our panelists, so if we could just give them a round of applause. And I wanna just take, um, uh, a moment to, if there's anyone in the audience who was [01:22:00] actually involved in the 1986 movement, if you wanna just stand up for a moment. We thank you. Um, uh, everything that's happened tonight, um, has been a volunteer effort. [01:22:30] So Kaua'e Mahana Queer Archives is a charitable trust. So every one of us that are here tonight, um, that has been on the boar- that are on the board have just volunteered our time and effort to make tonight happen. So can I get my fellow board trustees to just stand up? I just wanna acknowledge the board for a moment. Linda, Will, Allison, Roger, Gavin. And, uh, please consider making a donation or a bequest if you have [01:23:00] funds or resources to pass on to us to keep this mahi going. Uh, we have one more Queer History Month, uh, event, which is happening on the 1st of August, because July was just not enough for us, so we had to be greedy and creep into August as well. Every month is Queer History Month. So this is a viewing of our collections. Um, there's signs around that will be here at the library, so make sure you make it out to that, uh, event as well. Um, thank you all so much for coming. Thank [01:23:30] you, Gareth, for doing the recording. Thank you to everyone in Gisborne and in Auckland and all over the country for listening in. We have some refreshments out in the foyer, so I think that's probably the best chance you can have to ask questions a- and just talk amongst yourselves. Um, thank you very much, and we hope you enjoyed your evening. Please join us in the foyer.
This page features computer generated text of the source audio. It may contain errors or omissions, so always listen back to the original media to confirm content.
Tags