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I've always known I've been gay. Um, I've always been in some sort of denial about it, thinking that it was wrong, Um, all the way, basically, through college, especially, um, I was always picked on, and people continually call me and so forth, and it's something you not a nice experience, but you really got no choice about it. And I suppose I just kept denying it whenever anyone told me that, and I think that was kind of my way of denying it myself. Um, basically, [00:00:30] I've known ever since I was 12 or 13. Um, during school, I had girlfriends. I never slept with him. I only had girlfriends because it was a fashionable thing to do. And then I left college, and at the age of 19, I went off to Polytech in Auckland. And, um, I had a chat to a counsellor there because things are starting to get me down because I was feeling really lonely. I had no one no one knew about me in one night. Um, [00:01:00] the council, the council just said to me, perhaps you should start relying on people and letting them know what what happens. So I rang my best friend and we had a long talk. I ended up in tears on the phone and I told him I've got something big to tell you and I came out to him and he was a bit shocked, but he was totally cool about it. He said, Look, I don't agree with it, but because you're my friend, I'll stick by you and give you as much support as what you need And that was really good. [00:01:30] I had him as a sounding board now, and I basically talk to him about any issues I had. Um I I still had this, um, need to meet someone, obviously companionship thing. And so I started originally by placing an ad in one of the Auckland Game magazines, and I got a few replies. Life was quite difficult because I couldn't give them my home address. Um, in case my parents found out who I was still same with at the time. So I started meeting people [00:02:00] and started making up all sorts of weird and wonderful excuses to why I was going out this time of the night and why I had to borrow the car and so forth and then one day I just thought I had enough of this. I need to let my parents know what's going on with me, and I think I was about 21 22 when I came out to them. I did it through a letter. The main reason for that was because I had so much I wanted to say, and I knew that if I told my parents face to face, I'd end up in tears [00:02:30] and I would not be able to get across what I wanted to tell them. So I went to work one day, and with the help of my friend, I had told a year or so before I drafted a letter up and put down all my ideas and everything. Um, all my life, I was brought up as gay people are very bad people. You don't want to be around them. Um, don't associate with them, and that really made it hard for me. In fact, I was quite positive I was going to be thrown [00:03:00] out of home. I remember one night, especially during the news. They did a piece on the Sydney Mardi Gras and my father said a comment and passing. I think they should all be shot. They don't deserve to live. And that's sort of not the thing you want to hear, especially from someone who you really need to tell about you. So quite naturally, I was very nervous. Um, I showed the letter to my mother and I burst the tears and she read it and she cried [00:03:30] and she said, I don't want you to tell your father And I said Yes, I wanted her to. And so I left the house and she showed him the letter, and I came back half an hour later and my father was in tears and we sat down and we had a big talk about it, and he's fine about it now. Um, I think a lot of people tend to have their views. And it's not until they actually meet um, a homosexual person, that [00:04:00] they actually realise that gay people aren't actually bad people. They're just you and I. You pass them on the street, and it's not until you actually know someone who you can relate to and who you can talk to. That it actually had, because all you ever seem to see on television are the other raving queens. Use the expression and the very camp and flamboyant people and that, especially if my parents did not give a good view of the gay community. Um, I then promptly went out and started telling my friends [00:04:30] I was sure I would lose some friends. I had five or six very close friends. I always made the issue out to be big myself because it was such a traumatic thing for me to do. But one by one. As I told them, they all said it was fine. I felt absolutely stupid, burst into tears and telling someone and giving them a hug, and they sort of looked at me and said, Well, what's the big deal? And I think now when I tell people I'm a lot more casual about it, [00:05:00] and I sort of come to the realisation that if they like you, they will like you regardless of your sexuality. And if they're your friend, they will be there regardless. And I think no matter who you come out to, you just got to take that risk and if they're there for you, they will still be there for you. And if for some reason they don't, I don't know if they're really that much of your friend in the first place. Well, my girlfriend was the first person I told because I probably probably affect her the most after two years, [00:05:30] and I told her and she didn't believe me. She thought it was some sort of a nasty joke. She thought that, you know? Oh, he's always a practical joke sort of thing. So this is just another nasty play. And she reacted really badly when she finally it took a lot of convincing, but I finally convinced her she started believing it. She turned really nasty, and she rang up my cousins because she knew how homophobic they were and she like, she told them, and they rang up my auntie and they were like, Guess what? [00:06:00] You know. He's a fag sort of stuff, and then my family came to me and some of them It was a mixed reaction. Like my cousins, they came to do some serious damage sort of stuff, and I luckily wasn't home, and they got my flat mate and my flatmate and told them to depart rather swiftly But then a few weeks later, they came around again and I was there and we ended up having a talk about the whole sort of thing, and it [00:06:30] was just more of a sort of disbelief thing for them. They sort of felt that I've lied to them through the years. But the thing was, I was lying to myself more than I was to them. My mother, on the other hand, me being an only other child was like, really upset because she has no chance of grandchildren, which is like, really strung up on and stuff like that. And my father took it really well, my sister still don't know. It's gonna be really hard to explain it to him. Um, [00:07:00] one of them didn't believe it. And the ones that did just shifted away for for me that, um I wanted them to stick through, and I couldn't have probably got through without them because I had a lot of really bad times coming out. Um, I have great relief. It was like I'd spent all these years lying to everyone and to myself, and then I finally [00:07:30] going up the guts to do it and I came out in at the time, I didn't care what what reactions came out, what people said, how people would would treat me or anything like that. All I wanted to do is like free myself from this burden. I felt like I was carrying, so when I did, it was just like a big weight was taken off my shoulder and it could only be me instead of living this life. Coming out to my family was another matter. I. I think [00:08:00] I'd been out to myself satisfactorily than from my early twenties, and I had, like my friend Michael, who I bumped into occasionally true friends who was always a happy, confident, homosexual man. And I think he was a good pillar to have a good reference point to know that no matter how much life seems to change or where other people went in other directions, as in moving away from the bisexuality thing or becoming married and having [00:08:30] kids, Michael was always there as a rock solid person who was happy to be gay was never gonna be anything else, but that he was a political activist and such, uh, my friends could deal with the fact that I said that I had attraction to men even though I didn't really let them out. I know virtually no sex life, which is probably the only reason why I'm HIV Negative now. No sex life, really? In my late twenties, early thirties, [00:09:00] but at home I remember one time about seven more years ago, seven years ago, maybe now, Well, I was standing to think that I was gonna have to start, including how I felt about other people sexually in my life. It was important for that to become an honest and active part of my life. And I was working for the kitchen at home here one day, and I just send my father at the kitchen table with my brother and my mother and he said, and we had one [00:09:30] of them at work and he was OK, and I just turned around and I said one. What? And he said a queer. And before I could stop myself, I said, Well, Dad, you've got one for a son. Oh, that's OK and walked out the front yard. And as I got out the front yard, I just my heart to a bit louder and louder and louder, and I thought it was gonna collapse. But that was it. Like my father's been totally supportive [00:10:00] ever since. My mother had always been supportive. But it meant then that I could start dealing with the issue with all the rest of my family and have had nothing but support nothing but good results from interactions with people. So since that time, when I contacted Michael again and Michael was doing a radio show called Queer Radio I was up to. Then go and visit Michael, go to the radio show and start to talk [00:10:30] to other men and realise that that being gay or being homosexual is a huge fear of things. And you don't have to be a particular person behave in a certain way. And even though I thought I was relatively informed, I don't think you can be informed enough about the nature of the differences between people. So what I've got out of working now for the last six years on queer radio and by talking with literally hundreds of different men [00:11:00] and women is an appreciation that it's more OK for me to be me and I try to encourage other people, no matter how early they are in the coming out process, to just accept themselves and to not expect too much of themselves. Except, um, that they are OK, My father is dead. Uh, my mother I have not told one she is european. [00:11:30] Um, older person would not understand. It would totally go off about it and completely cut contact. I don't. Not that it worries me, but it sort of would hurt her feelings. Although at this stage there is a person that I am seeing. Then if I ever moved in with him, I would come out to my mother irrespective [00:12:00] of what she felt. Irrespective of what she would say about it, I think she would blur, refuses, go completely hysterical because, um, her background is very religious. Um, very naive. No education whatsoever. She never went to school. And [00:12:30] she just can't understand. Uh, anything outside her stereotypical field. Things have got a natural order to her, and this is wrong. Makes me feel that I want to live my life the way I want to live my life. I can't live my life to conform to other people's ideas. Because if it comes down to happiness. I've got to be happy [00:13:00] first. I can't please everyone else, and no one can please everyone else because no one has ever managed to make people happy. As soon as you you conform to one set of standards, they'll change the standards and they'll want you to do something else. I went home to Holland and I had Christmas with my parents, and then we had a New Year's party. Um, I [00:13:30] remember I was dancing with my sister at that party, and I was sort of saying things like, um well, you know, this is not really the me that I am or something like that. Something very cryptic and my sister answered. But Rain? I know already. You don't have to tell me, but I never I never I never used the word homosexual, homosexual or gay or anything. I just I was very, very cryptic at that time, and then when I flew back to to New York, I decided I was coming. [00:14:00] I had to come out, so I called my parents, um, from New York, and I spoke with my mother on the phone, and that's when I told her and she she said, Well, you know, I, I guess so much. And Marie Elaine, my sister, um, she had she had talked. She had told what? What? What? I had talked to her about, um, while dancing at New Year's, and, um but she was actually very accepting, and she was just very, very worried that, um, [00:14:30] I was coming back. She said, Well, you're now in New York and you're in that environment where it's all very OK and very very, um, won't give you any problems. But when you come back to Amsterdam or when you come back to Holland, you'll find a very different environment. And she was very, very worried, worried, And it would actually, you know, harm my career perspective. And as as you would expect from from parents like I have and, um um, and she was very protective, really. She she was She felt very worried for me. Um, [00:15:00] but also very, um, very disappointed, I guess, in a way, because I'm the heir of the family and I need to keep the family name and all that stuff. And, um, I wasn't going to do that. Um, and what makes it worse is later. My my brother is homosexual as well. So, um, I've got one sister and one brother and, uh and he's He's seven years younger than I am. Um, so he's 27 and he only came out last year during the gay games in Amsterdam. [00:15:30] Uh, although everybody knew he was gay, but he he had he had even a worse struggle than I had because I I grabbed the only opportunity to come out away from him because, in his view, there was, You know, even one gay person in the family is too much, let alone two gay persons. Um, he he hated me for being gay because first, it reminded him of being gay. And second, because I took away the only opportunity he saw to come out in our family. [00:16:00] But now, um, he's changing rapidly, and, uh, we were the best of friends, and, um, we feel very close to each other again. We always felt close, I guess. I mean, we we never we never felt, um there was never, never, like a break in our in our in our brotherly relationship, but it was It's definitely more open now. and more close in the sense that we can really talk about things that were taboo before. And he has become so much more at ease and more mature [00:16:30] and and and he's he's giving the same experience as I am that that that there is really nobody that that that will drop you for being gay or or like you less. And if if if they would, then they probably weren't your friends in the first place, I'm out to all my friends to my family. No, my parents are in their mid seventies. I believe that they would not cope at all. Well, um, with the fact that I was gay and if I came out to them then, um, it would affect [00:17:00] them, um, emotionally. And I don't want to do that to them. I people say, You know, you should tell your parents and all that sort of thing And I think I think every parent's reaction is that they look at themselves and think, Well, you know what the What the hell did I do? Where the hell did I go wrong and they didn't go wrong. They didn't do anything wrong at all. It's just the physical makeup that makes up me, and there's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing they can do about it. But they would feel recrimination, and I don't want them to do that. And at the same time, too, I think I'm a little [00:17:30] bit frightened that they just may turn away. Um, and I don't want that either. I'm an only child. They're the only family I have. I need their support, and I need their love, um, moving on. From there, we come to the gay scene, which I find extremely frustrating. Um, because I'm into my late forties. Um, I'm an old man. I don't feel it. I don't act it. I don't really look at either. But, um, we brand ourselves, I think, um, for a [00:18:00] section of society that complains so loudly and wrongly about being discriminated against, I think we're more discriminatory ourselves than any other group could ever be towards us. Um, I have yet to meet a man. I have not really had a true homosexual or a gay relationship. Um, I met a guy about six weeks ago, eight weeks ago. Now it would be, um, and a situation where, um, [00:18:30] he had a partner who was living overseas at the time who he was going to join at the end of the year. Um, we met. We were attracted to each other. Um, we got on so well together. We ended up having a sexual relationship, which I thought I could control, but I couldn't. Um I felt rather hard for the guy. He was only 32. Very successful, extremely intelligent, charming, witty. Everything I ever wanted in a man. Um, he never really talked about [00:19:00] what he felt for me, but he kept coming back and coming back. So I know he felt something and he knew how I felt. And that's the closest I think I've ever come to being in love with a man. The things that I felt the highs and the lows, um, I have never felt before. Um, and I find it sad that I come to this point in my life where I've never really experienced true life. Um, I find it frustrating. Um and I've It's hard. All I want [00:19:30] is someone to love and someone to love me. But I guess it will happen. I mean, the guy gave me back self esteem that I had lost. Um, he made me feel worthwhile and made me realise that there are guys out there who hour the type of person I want who will find me attractive. So I guess one day my day will come. As for I coming out. Well, what could I say? It's quite difficult for me to to speak real about [00:20:00] it. Um, and as much as I haven't made any coming out towards my parents, for example, uh, Except, uh, my sister, who is, uh, who knows everything about me and, well, everything a part of everything about me. Um, my parents don't know anything about my homosexuality. Uh, that's my choice. Um, I know that they would have many difficulties to accept it. [00:20:30] Um, I've tried to see how they would react, you know, just talking about it from time to time. The what? Their point of view was about such a topic. But, um, they have always considered homosexuality as a disease. So with time, I hope they that we change our mind. Er, at that time, it's still er, life is so I haven't spoken [00:21:00] to them. Still, I I think I'd be compelled to do to do it. Um, my boy, my boyfriend has, uh, has, uh, told everything to his parents. Uh, I've met them. They are quite wonderful people. And, uh, I decided to to move in, uh, South France French Riviera in quite in a few months with my boyfriend. So I think I'll be compelled to speak about my parents by that, Um, [00:21:30] even if I am quite sure that my mother wouldn't even believe it, and, uh, even if I didn't say anything, she would believe it's just a friend. Even if I'm always telling her that, um, I'm always with him, in fact, so but when people don't want to understand, I think they they don't. That's OK for me. And it's sometimes a little hard not to be able to speak about it. But, um, as much as my very close friends [00:22:00] are all knows or know all all about me and uh, that's OK, because I've been able to to do my coming out with my friends, and I've been quite I really happy to see that they have accepted it quite well. So I think I'm quite happy. I'm quite lucky. I wouldn't give any advice [00:22:30] to anybody about coming out. I think there are no general purposes general way to act in such a such a field. There are people who can tell it to their parents and some won't and well depends on each situation. In each case, I think it is always interesting when you can speak about it to the people you love. But it is [00:23:00] not possible. Yeah, You've got all friends, so friends, you know, wonderful things. That's my point. When I came out to my parents, it it was like a huge weight off my shoulder. I remember the night I went to bed after I told my parents I had the best sleep I'd ever had in years. And it was just it was just such a relief. It was such a huge relief. It was like I didn't need to lie anymore. I didn't have to lead such [00:23:30] a double life, which I've been doing for so many years. Um, everyone that is gay has a pretty good idea that they are. But a lot of people are very, um, apprehensive about it. Um, some people live in areas where it's not well accepted. Um, if you're going to come out, make sure you come out with friends around you that you can really, really trust. Um, take it slowly, but don't take it too slow. [00:24:00] Um, because when she come out, you wish she'd done it years ago. I think eventually you need to be honest to yourself and ask yourself, What are you VR? And if you prepare for the worst, like I came out to my family as well a couple of years later, because I've been I've been I got a job, and now I get to travel a lot, and I work in the United States and and it helped a lot more to be [00:24:30] really happy being who you are. So I decided to came out to my family and and everybody, and it actually turned out to be OK. I mean, they had some. We have some, um, family problems when I told them, but I was really prepared to, um, to say, Hey, if they're not going to accept me, that's OK. I still can't handle myself. I still can, and they'll support myself. I've been supporting myself all [00:25:00] the time anyway. So I have no threats from them if they're not going to accept it and which some of my family are not very happy about it. But I didn't I didn't really care because, you know, that's my life. And I live for myself and I. I don't need anything from them. Even if they're emotionally not gonna support me, I I'm actually say I'm prepared for them. So I think you just have to be confident [00:25:30] about yourself. If you want to come out. If you're not really, I think it's probably better not to, um my friends, especially Western friends, seems to be less problem than A than in a Asian countries where I come from Asia. So, um, they just making a little bit of comparison. So I'm totally out now to companies and my work and school whatever, [00:26:00] and I actually came out to my class, They were kind of joking and and and I said, Yes, I am. And some of them are just huh? And some of them are actually OK, and actually, they are quite gay. Gay people there. I know there's a gay guy and a lesbian there. It was sort of a joke. It just like joke joking about gay and and I just Yes, I am gay. I'm the first one that came out in the class And then I saw the other ones. [00:26:30] They didn't They didn't mention they. I know they are, but I just read them in gay bars and I read, 00, you are too. And it Yeah, they they they think I know it as well, but they didn't want to tell anyone. I ended up telling my brother first, and I said to him, You know, I've kissed the guy and I don't know. I think I am gay. And now my brother, who's the oldest one? He's about 30. He's a real masculine man. Um, he's black bat and karate. [00:27:00] He's a boxer, so you can sort of just imagine what sort of person he is. He married and he was like, Oh, you have to tell Mum if you don't tell Mum, I Well, and that was the big subject. And I turned around and said, Mum, if he doesn't tell you, I'm gonna tell you I don't give a care. I don't care anymore. So after telling my mum she was just, like, screaming ahead of I had to go to a priest and confess. Now, that was the worst thing I could do. I ended up going to a priest telling him that I was gay. [00:27:30] He said to me that I was gonna go to hell. Um, being gay was not part of our Greek Orthodox religion. And there must be something wrong with you for being attracted to the same sex. I then replied to him and said, God made me to be happy on this earth. And if I'm happy, um, I think he also will be happy. I don't really care. Not that I follow religion much anymore. But I used to be a Greek Sundays church boy that I used to be going to church every Sunday. [00:28:00] And I had mum sitting on the bed, one just screaming, saying, I can't believe that you're gay. Where did I go wrong as a mother. Is it my fault? What are the relatives gonna think? What are the neighbours gonna think? How did I bring up my son in this world? Holding hands with another male and kissing him? I don't think it works. I want him to get married. I want him to have Children. And that was a big, strong part in the Orthodox to get married, have Children have a good job [00:28:30] study, do all that Now I've studied, I've done uni, I've done art, I've done painting and now I've got a good job. But still, that wasn't good enough for my mother because I didn't have a girlfriend and I wouldn't be having any. She won't be having any grandchildren. Well, I was married at the time and a friend of mine, a friend of ours, One of my former wife kind of got me started [00:29:00] dressing in her underwear and stuff, and that's basically how it started and just walked up to, I guess where I am today. Uh, I'm no longer married, but, uh, I think I'm happier now. Anyway, at first, I wasn't really that passable and they sort of reacted. Some [00:29:30] reacted like, Oh, like So what? You know, those made remarks and all kinds of stuff like that, but I just ignored him and just said, Well, you know, if that's the way they feel, that's the way they feel. And most people nowadays cannot tell I mean, there are some that that just have a sense for it and just, uh, know that there's something different about this person. But most people [00:30:00] just treat me just like a lady when I out. In fact, I've been taking for a lady dressed as a male, too. So cause I'm a I'm a school bus driver here in Philadelphia, and I were earrings to work. Every day I work or something else, and I've been taken by not my kids on my route, but my kids on [00:30:30] I've taken our trips. It's being a lady and I don't say anything. I just say no. Hey, if they think it's a lady driving a bus, then it's a lady driving a bus. You know, I'm kind of thin out on on top as far as hair goes, so I wear. I do wear a hat, I wear a cowboy hat as well, and I just basically, just don't try to correct on anybody. [00:31:00] And the people that know my co workers know I trust I've been to three the last three Christmas boys of contrast as a lady. Er they don't most of them don't see them live some of them makes night remark on, but most of them are. Except my like my outside was always being You do what you wanna do. My wife, when I was married, [00:31:30] at first she accepted it and then she rejected it. So I don't know exactly what the story was there and as far as the rest of my family Oh, my father has been deceased since 1970 and my mother never did. Now my sister, she is deceased now, too. And my sister does know that [00:32:00] I dress but has not really accepted it. I mean, she accepts the lifestyle as far as me being a female in appearance, but she doesn't really want me to dress in front of her, which I have not done buy out a request. But she just tells me to be careful and just have fun and be careful. That's all we'll try to try [00:32:30] to. Usually when I go out, I go out with friends. It's always in a trans site, and we usually just go out to clubs or whatever. We may meet some people, but nothing really serious has come out of that so far, and we just we just go out and have a good time. We don't try to, uh, don't we try to get picked [00:33:00] up, But once in a while, we do meet people. My brother, who was a minister, found out about it. He hasn't talked to me or had any relation with me whatsoever since 1980. Uh, so that's 20 years of, uh, deciding that I was not worth being a brother to any longer. And my mother, also very religious, left me, uh, deciding [00:33:30] that I had ruined her name and and hidden all of this from her that I was unworthy. But my father stayed with me, and my father helped me on the on the sidelines without anybody knowing about it. And he was wonderful. But of course, they're both gone now. All this time, of course, with four degrees, uh, up to a PhD. I, uh, knew [00:34:00] knew full well that there wasn't anything wrong with homosexuality, that it was just, uh, another orientation of life. Uh, the good lord made diversity in everything he created. So why should people be any different? And I I got an intellectual and an emotional satisfaction too. Uh, my situation although I was saddened by what I did to my wife and my Children, fortunately, stayed with me, too. Uh, my father didn't care, and I mean, [00:34:30] he cared. But, I mean, he wasn't going to stop loving me, and neither were my Children, but they were not as religious as the mother and the brother. And I think that is a testament to what happens with people who are really not truly religious, but into religiosity or church or whatever you might want to call it. But as a professor of psychology, it is clear in my mind that there's absolutely nothing wrong with me. There never was. [00:35:00] And the problem is really with society. I decided not to tell anybody until I graduated high school. It's because I grew up in a very small town, and, um, it was it wasn't something I wanted everybody to know. Right after that, I was I was just too scared. Yet when I graduated, um, I told my both of my parents and, um, have two sets of parents. They're divorced, So I told [00:35:30] my dad and my stepmother first, and they were very, very, um accepting about it, and they uh, we were a little concerned about me and, uh, that I knew what I was doing. This is what I wanted. Um, they weren't They didn't know too much about anything about it, So, um, they wanted to learn more about it, so it was really good. It made me feel a lot better. Uh, my mom, on the other hand, [00:36:00] um, wasn't so well with it. My step dad was absolutely fine. He's probably the best. And, um, my mom just had a problem with it just because, um, she didn't want to see me get hurt or, um, anybody to look at me different, like as a mother usually does in that case. But, um, she is doing very well now with it. And, um, I believe, um, she is getting a lot more comfortable with it day by day. And, uh, she's always there for me, no matter what. Um, [00:36:30] what? My problem is or, uh, what my question is, and she'd never turn her back on me for us to know that, um, everybody was there for me. Uh, my friends, on the other hand, were a different story. Um, you lose friends and you gain friends when you go to high school, no matter what. And I just was very honest about everything that about my life. And I didn't want anything to be a big secret. I was who I was. And, um, sometimes I just don't talk to anymore. Sometimes I do. [00:37:00] So, I mean, in general, it was it. It was a It was a great time for the story. And I never changed it for anything in In my in my life. It's really changed who I was. And, um, a lot, A lot about what I learned about life and experiences. Yeah. Just you know how important getting yourself really is. And, um, not trying to hold back anything before anybody or because of anything when I actually told my parents that was a That was a real [00:37:30] disaster. Um, they're very, very religious. And, um, we still haven't, like, been able to completely resolve resolve this. They think I'm going to go to hell. They they really think, um um I? I don't know. There's There's just a lot we still have to work out on that. Um, but but the situation where I actually told my parents um, it was it was in the middle of a fight that we were having, um, just talking about whether I could drive the car. I'd just gotten my driver's licence, and we were talking about, um, [00:38:00] property. Like I they they said I didn't respect their property. And I said they didn't respect me in general. And, um, it sort of We started throwing out, like, specific details. And, like, I was trying to just sort of, like, do atop that thing like, Well, I didn't throw out the shower this morning. Well, fine. You don't respect this, and you don't respect that. And, you know, you don't respect my homosexuality. And, like, Oh, it was just a really horrible, horrible way to do that. I wish I wish when I when I would have come out to them that it would have been in a more, um, more calm, uh, a more [00:38:30] calm setting. I wish that I would have had, like, a lot more, uh, I. I wish I would have had better social skills, better communication skills. Um, they pretty much ignored it. Um, they they acted like I hadn't said it and just sort of went on with the argument, and, uh, they never spoke about it again after that for quite a while. Um, the next the next. I really heard him mention of it every now and then. Um, if I had a friend over, you know, I'll be like, Well, you know who [00:39:00] is that? Is he gay? Does he know you think you're gay? It was always, you know, do I think I'm gay? Um, they they they had a really hard time. Um, accepting the fact that, you know, it's not It's not like a a temporary thing or or a choice thing. Um, so, yeah, I mean, they they right now, they're actually making a really big effort to to be really accepting, and it's really cool. It it makes a I don't I It makes it. It makes a big difference [00:39:30] to me. It means a lot to me because I know how, um, how rigid their belief system is in a way, and the fact that they're they're sort of like stepping beyond that to me. Um, just like seeing through the dogma to to me as a person. Um, I don't that that really means a lot. It's really It's really special. Well, when I first came out to my friends, I well, I, I guess I was really worried. Um, it's just that you don't know what sort of reaction. It wasn't [00:40:00] that I wasn't scared that I'd lose them as friends or anything like that. I mean, you know, So what if I did? It's not a tragedy. Um, but I guess it it meant having men to confront, you know, you know something. Not very pleasant. Like, um, you know, if they said something dreadful or, you know, made some derogatory comments or something like that. So it really wasn't the the friendships. I mean, they're they're valuable, of course, but not as valuable as my identity and my feeling good about myself. Um and really, I found that, [00:40:30] um, people I just said Oh, yeah, I thought so. Or, um, there was not much reaction at all. Or, um, don't recall. There's no reaction. That is, I guess, significant enough for me to have a great memory of, um all positive. Um, I can't think of any really negative ones. Um, but generally, people you know, if people aren't really interested, [00:41:00] it's kind of, you know, you read the body language, and the eyes move, and the subject changes. But never ever have I encountered any, um, any form of, uh, and, uh um, a response that I wouldn't call, you know, um, normal. Um, haven't felt any Haven't felt any sort of, um, aggression or, um, disappointment or anything like that. I [00:41:30] know people do. I mean, I know people do experience. I'd have a, um a great deal of problems with it, but yeah, I generally found that, You know, most people are sort of quite happy that, um you know that you are a bit more confident or that you do feel, you know, that you do appear a little bit more. Um, happy. Um, um I suppose a lot of people really, you know, deep down do know. Anyway, um, sometimes before you do, I haven't actually come out to [00:42:00] my parents officially, but this all happened around my 21st birthday. And, um, the fact that this new person was suddenly around all the time who hadn't been in my life before my parents became very Susi suspicious. And although I thought my boyfriend was fairly straight acting. And I'm assuming they my parents picked up the body language between us, which, um, I didn't really know that we were making [00:42:30] such obvious sort of flirtations across the room or whatever you would like to call it. But they saw a change in my mannerisms or whatever and did confront me about it. Um, and I wasn't expecting the question at the time, so they didn't actually ask if I was gay, but they asked if my boyfriend was and me not being prepared for the question. I just said No, of course not. Don't be silly. And I went away because I wasn't [00:43:00] living with my parents at the time I was living in Brisbane. Um, I went back to university for three months, and then at the end of the year, it was Christmas and I'd gone home again, expecting the question to be put to me again because I was still seeing this person. He was still around all the time, and this time I was prepared for the question and I would have said Yes, I am Oh, yes, he is. And yes, I am as well. However, the question was never put to me again. And so not [00:43:30] knowing whether to rock the boat or what to do, I just ignored it. And I always And it has just been that unspoken thing ever since. Um, so in my mind, I think that they know. But I think it's one thing to have it, um in your in your mind is I think my son is gay and another thing for your son to come to you and say Yes, I am So it's not confirmed to them although they had asked my sister about her comments about it. [00:44:00] Um, and she does know about me and I used to live with her. And she's very open minded about things like that and her. Her only comment was she denied knowing, but she said to them, I don't know if he is or isn't. Why don't you ask him? But if he says yes, what would it matter? And their one comment was they didn't care whether I was or not, but they would be very concerned that somebody had made me that way again, sort of linking back to their [00:44:30] comments in previous years that if I was around gay people they would try and convert me and all that sort of thing. So there's always been this fear that all this misunderstanding that somehow if I ended up gay, it wasn't through my own development. It was because of outside influences. I went to a support group called icebreakers, which was back in those days. I don't know if it's still around there, and, um, I met a couple of guys who I worked with there, [00:45:00] and, um, friends of mine introduced me to another guy who actually lived where I lived in. And, um, Mum asked me how I met this guy and what his intentions were. And I said, Just a friend, he was a lot older than me. He was 11 years older than me, but it was never It was never a sexual thing. And, um so she asked me, in plain words, Was he an a bandit? And I said, I don't know what you mean. I had an idea, but I didn't want to [00:45:30] say it. And she said, Is he gay? And I said, Yes, he is. And she asked me how it was, and I said no. Oh, and the reason why I said no was because, um, the timing was not right. I did not feel the time was right to come out to my mum to tell her I was gay. I had to wait for the right moment. And, um, she kept pestering me and pestering me for weeks and weeks. We argued over it, we had bad fights over it. And one day I just gave her and couldn't handle it any longer and told her I was gay and she kept telling me it'd [00:46:00] be OK. It'll be OK. And, um so I thought, maybe she will be OK because she liked my friends who she knew were gay. So I thought if she can accept them, she can accept her own son. And I told her I was and, um, things got messy. Um, we didn't talk for probably I. I walked out of home, I couldn't handle the strain and things got messy. We didn't talk for about four months, and, um then we started getting talking again and the way [00:46:30] we are now or have been for the last four or five years. We've never been so close. Never. So, um, it pays off it does pay off in the long run. They do accept you better because they know you're honest with them. There's no more lives than hurt, and I think the reason why she's so understanding now is because she knows I'm not gonna get married and have kids. And then later on, I find out and hurt a lot of people's lives break up a lot of people's lives, so I think she's in a way happy I [00:47:00] am. I know what I am now and not when I'm 35 40 etcetera. So and I I also look back at home and, um, my stepfather and that who she's remarried is awesome. It's the best thing for her and it's been the best thing best thing for me, not a problem at all. They can both sit there and watch a gay programme on TV and not even get disgusted. Actually found it interesting and understand me better that because [00:47:30] they class the average gay person as being feminine, dressing up a woman's clothing and you know, performing an or sex and they know I don't do not. They know I do not do any of those, so they just see me as being a normal heterosexual guy. But I'm gay who prefers men, and they don't even class me as being gay because I'm not gay orientated. They just see him as a normal person, and it's really good for me, too, because [00:48:00] I am just a normal guy. What was really useful for me being born in 1955 and then when I had an emerging interest in socialising and music and life in general. Outside of school, you had rock stars like David Bowie and Mick Jacket making bisexuality like a really acceptable, if not fashionable thing to be. So it was quite safe to say that it was great to be bisexual, and it was good to explore [00:48:30] the sides of your sexuality. And I had friends of mine. Like my best friend from school was a man who came out to me once as having had sex with a mutual friend. And when David told me that one night he'd showed me a record and inside was a a note from the mutual friend Michael and it said to David, thanks for the wonderful time we had together last night. All my love Michael and like, because they would just show me the [00:49:00] album and he didn't say anything. But when I looked at it, I knew everything that was entailed in this. And I just remember shaking feeling, um, a huge reaction because all of a sudden it wasn't just a topic anymore. It wasn't something that we all agreed was acceptable, but it was actually happening. And years later, um, when David and another girlfriend had had a big dinner party at their place. Uh, David said, because [00:49:30] I was the last guest to leave, he said, We'd really like you to stay. You know, you should stay overnight And I said, I know you know, I've got work tomorrow or such, but I'll be fine And he said, No. Linda and I would particularly like you to stay with us, and I had that same shaking feeling because it was so obvious that David had actually felt an attraction for me like I'd always felt for him. But I'd never been able to actually put into words or into action, and it was a [00:50:00] great night of fun. And it helped confirm to me that even though like Linda being there. That was good fun. But for me, what made the whole night was the fact that I was actually able to enjoy physically being in bed with and having sex with a man who was my best friend throughout high school and, ah, who is still a good friend of mine. Even though he's like the other side of the world away, A good part recently was through the Internet. I wonder if the Internet catching up with David and broaching [00:50:30] the subject for the first time in like, 20 years, and that was just great to learn that for him, it had been something significant. It it had been wank fodder for him over the last 20 odd years, even though he hadn't had sex with another man since that time.
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