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Pakataka te hau ki te uru, pakataka te hau ki te tonga. Ke a mā kinakina ki uta, ke a mā taratara ki tae. He he hiake ana te atakura, he teo, he huka, he haunga. Tihei, mauri ora. Peace out, seafarer. Uh, mauri ora ki te pare, E ngā mana, e ngā reo, e ngā waka, E ngā maunga, e ngā awa, e ngā mate, E ngā iwi hurinua o te whenua [00:00:30] nei, Tēnā koutou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai, kake mai ki te whānau o ngā waka huia, o te waka huia o ngā taonga tuku iho. Nō reira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa. Ko Leilani Seal tuku ingoa, me uri nō Ngāti Hāmoa me Aotearoa tau. Tēnā koe, te mātanga hōtoka hapori haumi o Whiarako -Pōneke. Uh, yeah, I think that's it. [00:01:00] Um, I'd like to welcome everybody to our Wellington Heritage Festival programme over the Rainbow Queer History Kōrero. I'm really lucky to have this young man, Will Hansen, who is passionate about rainbow history. Um, I think sometimes we take that stuff for granted or don't even care, but I think history, our history, especially in Aotearoa New Zealand is really important, and, you know, this guy digs up everywhere, all up and down the [00:01:30] motu. Fantastic that he's here. I've wanted to work with him for a long time, so please give him a warm welcome. Thank you. I'm a public programme specialist. Wellington Museum is one of the four cultural sites I programme for. Uh, I'm Samoan, I was born in Auckland, I grew up mostly in Wellington, in a suburb called Strathamore, which is the only suburb that matters in Wellington.[00:02:00] But um, what is it, this next guy, why we're here, little known fact, one of my first programs that I did here for our community was around the Evergreen Coffee Lounge, uh, Coffee House Lounge sign, which is... currently on display in the museum on the second floor. Um, and I remember going to visit Mel at S &M's. Saying, Tom, do you know that the sign's there? I don't think anyone knows. And I'm thinking about the word program. And he's like, yeah, [00:02:30] go, go hard. And, um, so I thank Mel for that. But I also used to DJ for Mel at Bojangles in the pound, quite terribly. I think, uh, the other one who's here used to DJ at the pound for Mel, and he did a much better job than I did. Thank you. I play too much, uh, backspinning bullshit. I'll now describe some of the stuff I play. But, um, I just think, uh, this has been on my mind for a long time, uh, I think Mel really deserves to [00:03:00] be acknowledged for the service he has done for our community. So he might not be a politician, whatever, we shouldn't get into that status bullshit. Because I think what he's done has been so important, and it's through various decades. I thought, I thought our eldest statesman Mel was just a little bit older than me, but he's been around a bit longer than that, so. And um, I remember the It's the 90s version. But you know, the He's been through, seen so much, [00:03:30] and, and he's still alive. And take knowledge of him while he's still alive, not wait until the past. That's, that was really important to me. You've got another 50 years in the eye now. Oh yeah. But uh, The first time I met Mel was at, I said, what's the bar upstairs at the Oaks? It was a family bar. And I was a severely younger age, so the drinking age back then was R20. R20. But um, you know, it was just [00:04:00] so friendly. And yeah, legally, they were, you know, probably not okay. But, it was a different environment then. And anywhere that he was at, I knew that. Even if I was underage, that I'd have a safe place to go to. You know, whatever people think of alcohol and bar and nightclubs, I literally grew up in gay bars and nightclubs in Wellington, so. Um, I'm just so honoured that you're here now, and I'm so glad everyone's [00:04:30] turned up for you, because you fucking deserve it. Um, yeah, so, please give a warm welcome. Applause This is going to be totally off the cuff, alright? Taking no notes. Oh, it's just so wonderful to have you here. It's so wonderful to be here. Um, thank you so much, Leilani, for organizing this. Huge, huge applause for Leilani.[00:05:00] Leilani does so much for our communities, puts on so many incredible events to honor our queer histories, and is just an absolute legend. So we're really, we're both really, really grateful to, to, that you've, that you've organized this and have us here today. Fantastic. Thank you, baby. Very, very much. So, I wanted to kick us off with that classic gay question. How did you come about to realise your own gayness? How was that process for you? Um, I just think, to be quite honest, I think it was one of those things that when you grew up, I just knew from when I [00:05:30] was about 10 or 11 that, um, um, I like boys. I remember, um, as a, um, um, I used to go to, uh, Avalon Primary School. And, um, I had a really good friend, a girl, um, called Tamara Sparrows. And, um, We used to walk to, she lived just down the road from us, and we used to walk to, uh, walk to school together, and walk home together. And, um, there was a bus stop, you know, the old wooden bus stops down the road there. And I, it was at a very inquisitive early age, um, we [00:06:00] both stood behind the bus stop. And she's going, you show me yours and I'll show you mine. You know. I looked and I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not what I'm looking for. So I think I already knew from a very, very early age that, um, um, I like boys and that was the way it was going to be and I just grew up. I never really came out to my parents and my family at any stage. Um, I just progressed naturally, um, being who I was and my destination was of my own choice. Fantastic. Um, [00:06:30] oh, fantastic, awesome. And what about in terms of entering the world of bars and pubs and nightclubs? What were your first experiences there like? Um, oh, I'll do it very, very quickly. When I first left school, my father died when I was about 14 years of age. Um, and, uh, as soon as I turned 15, um, I really didn't like school. I didn't like school at all and I wanted to get out fast. So I kept on saying to my mother, you should let me leave school, you know, I need to get out. You need the money, you know. And so she eventually, she [00:07:00] eventually, [00:07:30] Um, and they were, uh, uh, very intelligent and, uh, being in the Merchant Navy for, for me was a little bit, um, being in the army it was very strict and very military, you had to be up at, you know, you had to be up at 6 o in the morning and you had to turn to by 6 .30 and then you had to load the ship full of stores and things like that. Um, and then I, I got to work in, um, uh, the cafe, uh, on the rangatira, which was the elite one on the top deck. And I worked with some amazing, amazing, um, gay men. Um, so I think I learnt a lot [00:08:00] of my skills off, off these, these guys that I work with. Um, and nobody bat an eyelid that I was gay, half of them were bloody gay as well. Um, but, but I think I learnt my skills from them and, and I worked with these, I'd actually call them really good professional people. Um, they, they taught me so much. They educated me, they took me under their wing, they looked after me, and it was a natural cause for me to becoming who I was and doing what I wanted and being myself. I progressed onto, [00:08:30] worked on the rail ferries, and my first job on the rail ferries was on the Aramoana, the very first ship that ever came over and took over the Cook Strait run. And I got put into the bar, and I worked with a fantastic barman there. And he taught me a lot of schools. It was amazing, so it was a natural progression for me to carry on getting into the hospitality industry because that's the thing I liked. I met a man, fell in love, came ashore, um, got into, [00:09:00] um, a functions manager for the Hotel St George, organising weddings and things like that. And then I got offered a job at the Western Park Tavern on Tim and Corey Road. Um, and I manage the Gillespie's bar there. I used to work in the cocktail bar upstairs doing lunches. Then I'd go downstairs and manage the bar, um, uh, downstairs. Um, and then, uh, a friend of mine rang me up one day and said, um, Oh boy, I've got a job for you. And I said, what's that? They said, we're looking for a new bar manager for the Bamboo Bar in the Royal Oak Tavern. That was the [00:09:30] beginning. It was absolutely amazing. It was um, and I still, still to this day think it's probably one of the best LGBT bars we've ever had in Wellington. And you've got to remember there was no gay nightclubs at that stage, it was only just the bars. Um, so I managed that for about seven years, and um, just flowed on from there to there to there. So for anyone who hasn't heard of the Royal Oak Hotel and the gay nightlife that was part of that, could you explain a bit about what that world was like? Well we're going [00:10:00] back to the original, which was the old Royal Oak Hotel. The Pistero Bar, the Tavern Bar, and upstairs was where all the elite gay people drank. It was the Toledo Bar, you know. All us ragamuffins used to drink down in the Tavern Bar, which was a bit of a gay bar. Very, very mixed. I think we've come full circle on that actually now. Um, and so we used to drink there, and then when we were feeling slightly more rich, we'd go upstairs and drink in the elite bar upstairs. It was quite fabulous. [00:10:30] So yeah, that was the history there. Never ever wanted to change. It just got into hospital and it just bit me on the arse and here we are. Fantastic. And so, it was, uh, am I right in thinking it was around the time that you were working in the Royal Oak that you met the one and only Georgina Byer? Oh yeah. Um, Georgie would have, uh, was my longest and dearest friend and, um, I was working in the, um, um, in the, um, Oaks Coffee Shop at that stage, um, which was the, um, restaurant in the old Royal Oak Hotel.[00:11:00] Before she transitioned, um, George came to work for us and was the night porter. Just moved to Wellington, and um, Yeah, just, he moved to Wellington, he had nowhere to live in, and myself and Rion, the maitre d' and the restaurant, um, we just clicked with, um, with George. And he's going, oh yeah, I've just moved to Wellington, got nowhere to live. And we'd be going, well, we live just up on Buller Street, come and live with us. So George, he moved in with us [00:11:30] and, um, we just became very, very firm friends over many, many years. Uh, um, we, um, would work in the, you've got to remember, back in those days, um, um, The bar was all closed at 10pm at night. And that was it, so we'd go home and, um, finish, clean up the bar, shoot home, get dressed up, throw some drag on, and then we'd go down and hit the, um, all the nightlife down at Vivian Street, Carmen's Coffee Lounge, the, uh, um, strip club. Um, Georgie started working there, [00:12:00] um, and that's when she really began the transition, um, um, working in the nightclub and the, um, And the purple onion, uh, with, uh, Anisha and, um, Patsy. Locked up as he just passed away recently. But that's where our life began and we became firm friends, we looked after each other. Um, we, um, had, we were falling on hard times. There was, uh, you know, sometimes we'd be out there cracking it to pay the rent. Um, I think we had an old Bendix washing machine and I think we wheeled that down the street at something godly hour in the morning [00:12:30] to sell it off so we could get the money for it to pay the rent. You know, things weren't really always easy. And so, I'm sure, I'm sure everyone here knows who Georgina Byer is, but just in case you don't, I mean the most famous thing that she's famous for is that she was the first out trans mayor in the world, first out trans member of parliament in the world, but of course there's many, many things beyond that as well, and there's a silhouette of her just, Oh, okay, so I was second above and above Miles head there. So that's one of the, one of the, someone [00:13:00] who's been incredibly important In your life, and you've done a lot of work to help carry her memory forward. Would you like to talk about any of those? As I said, I mean, she was my longest and dearest friend. Um, and, um, we've, we've, um, when she had the kidney transplant, um, she lost a lot of weight, Hei hei, tēnā koe, tēnā koe. We always made contact with her. She'd drive over the hill from the Wairarapa and we'd meet down here on the waterfront, have a glass of wine. And then she had the kidney [00:13:30] transplant. And we always made sure she was losing a lot of weight. She was near on death actually. But a very good friend of hers, Grant Pittam, gave her the kidney. And um, We always would meet up, when she had the transplant, we made sure, like, right, Monday is our catch -up day. And every Monday, for the last several years, she would come round to our home, we'd cook dinner for her, just make sure she was eating properly, and getting through life. And of course, being an ex -member of [00:14:00] parliament, she still had her, um, So she could go and sit in Parliament and sit in the House. And like 3 .30 every Monday, she would just leave the room. She'd bang on the door, walk through. And then she'd walk through the door and she'd be going, Rawr, rawr, rawr, you know. And I'd go, sit down girl, have a drink. Oh, I've been down the House. What they're doing down there? Rawr, rawr, rawr. She was very, very opinionated, Georgie. And, um, she read extremely. And one of her famous quotes is, We should never accept being [00:14:30] tolerated. We should only tolerate being accepted. And I've always kept that in my mind. And when she passed away, um, we sat with her and promised her that whatever she wanted we would do. Um, and we did. Um, uh, we were with her for the last seven days at the Mary Potter Hospice. Um, and holding her hand as she passed away. And, um, It was, um, Elizabeth Kerikeri, who was with the Green Party then. Georgie had always said to me, um, I don't want no fanfare, [00:15:00] I just want to go. I want to go straight to the Undertakers, I just want to be cremated straight away. So we sat and talked about it, we talked about it. We talked with her about doing a wool. It took us years and years and years to get her to make a wool. And it was just through, um, The day, the Saturday before she passed, she passed on the, away on the Monday afternoon and it wasn't until the Saturday before she passed we actually got her to make a will. And she was going, oh I don't really need [00:15:30] one. We're going, yeah you do because you've made us in control of your destiny. Um, as the executives of her estate, anything could happen. Anybody could walk in and say we're taking you.[00:16:00] She wanted to be buried in three places. Cremated and then her ashes scattered in three places. All of them totally illegal. And, um, one of them was Parliament Buildings. Um, because of her time in the house. And, uh, of course she was the first [00:16:30] transsexual mayor of Carterton. So she wanted some ashes scattered over in Carterton. And, um, the other one was up at the Massey Memorial, around Point Jernigham. And we sat down with the, um, with the undertaker, Ruth, who was absolutely fantastic. And she said, now we need to choose an urn. And I went, no, we need to choose three urns. So we, uh, we took her ashes up to Parliament one day and, um, We walked to the Parliament grounds, and of course, right across the top of Parliament is, is, is TV cameras everywhere, you know.[00:17:00] And we go, how the hell are we going to get away with this? It's so illegal. So, we, uh, we walked across and sort of looked up there, and there's all these cameras right across the top, and we thought, well, let's walk over towards the Alexander Turnbull Library. So we walked over towards the Alexander Turnbull Library and there was a stairway going up. On the right hand side there was these beautiful rose gardens. And on the left hand side were all these fabulous trees that had grown up and they blocked out all the cameras. Right along the top of Parliament buildings. So we just sat on the edge there and sort [00:17:30] of like scattered our ashes into the rose garden. Gave them a bit of a whisk over. Scattered a bit more, you know. Um, and the second lot we were thought, you know, um, Cardston, she wants to go to Cardston, so we thought, Daffodil Day, what a, what a gorgeous day to do, um, ashes would be, Daffodil Day in Cardston. So we travelled over to the Wye Rapids to scatter our ashes and we were going to do them in the town square. But of course we get there and it's Daffodil Day, and um, There's flea [00:18:00] markets and food markets and stalls everywhere. I thought we can't do this, so we took her ashes up to Grant Pittam's and Tony, his partner, and said, look, we tried to do these ashes today, but we can't get them. And they went, leave the ashes with us, and we'll do them. And, um, I think it's quite, um, fabulous. Up on the hill over there is, is Mount Richard, which they call Mount Dick. And, um, we thought it would be highly appropriate if they took her up there and scattered her ashes up there. Because they, um, They had, um, beautiful views all over the, all [00:18:30] over Carterton and right down to Martinborough. So the boys took her up there and scattered her up there. Um, and the third one, uh, was, um, around, uh, Point Jerningham. And we were very fortunate, um, when Georgie passed that, um, she'd met, she'd just started to get in contact with her sister Karen, who was, um, adopted out at a very early age. Thank you. And, uh, we were working in the bar, S &M's, and, um, this woman come into the bar, and Scotty said to me, Oh, there's this [00:19:00] woman down there in the bar, she wants to talk to you. And I went, Oh, who is it? And he said, It's Georgina's sister. And, um, most beautiful woman. The most beautiful woman. Um, and I said, look, we're really busy. It was, um, Cuba Dupa was on at the time. We were flat stick. It was really busy. I said, look, I'd really love to talk to you right now, but, um, I, I can't because, as you can see, we're really busy. Let's meet up for coffee on Monday. So we did, and, um, Just the most amazing story of Georgina's life came out of Karen. She was just getting to know Georgina. [00:19:30] She'd been driving down the street when, um, we'd released that Georgina had passed away. We had, um, all the, um, radio stations and TV people ringing us, Oh, can we have you on TV? And, oh, can you come down to the radio station? And we're going, look, our dear friend's just passed away, but still sitting here holding her hand and mourning, you know. Um, no, we can't do this, sorry. And, um, She was driving down the street, Karen, Georgina's sister, was driving down the street and she said, I was going to pick the kids up from school. She said, I had to pull over to the side of the road. She said, because I was just getting to know my sister. She'd never, had never ever met. [00:20:00] Once she'd, She'd been adopted out at an early age, and she was doing a bit of, um, um, history research to find out who her whanau were. And that's when she discovered Georgina Barr was her sister. Um, and it was the most beautiful story, absolutely beautiful story, and we're still in very, very good contact with her now. Well, I think we all owe you a huge deal of thanks for everything you did for Georgina, especially in those last few years of her life, and all [00:20:30] the ways that you've been carrying her memories forward. I think we all deserve it. I think she was one of our born leaders. Um, and I think we would all in this room would all do the same thing. We would do it for any friend, you'd carry out their final wishes. And we've done that to a T, 100%. Whatever she wanted, she got. And no matter how illegal it was, we were gonna do it, and we did it, and we did everything that she wanted. And, um, if you go to Carterton, you can see a [00:21:00] street named after her. Yeah, yeah, we went over to Carterton. Ron Mark was the mayor over there, and, um, it was where the Power Shell factory used to be, and when they closed that down, the family donated the land, um, husband and wife, um, donated the land to the Carterton, um, District Council, and they, um, the wife used to be, um, Georgina's secretary when she was the mayor in Carterton. And she said to them, you know, I'd really like to name a street [00:21:30] after Georgina. So we got invited over and, um, we did, um, The Blessing of the Street, the whole what? Excuse me. And they had the, um, the, um, Georgina had a bit of a, uh, difficult time with her adopted father, which was Colin Byer, the lawyer. And, um, um, When they were naming the street, they were going to call it by a way, and we went, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. It has to be Georgina by a way, because we don't want anybody to think that it was named after her stepfather, [00:22:00] you know. And they went, alright, if it's Georgina by a way it is, and they did the blessing of the street, and it was absolutely fantastic. Um, we took a trip over there just recently. They actually donated, we actually have the street sign at home, um, because Ron Mark, the mayor, was doing all the speeches and that, and we turned around and said to the deputy mayor, and he said, you know, you can't do that, you can't do that. We can get another one of these done, can't we? And he went, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can get another one done. So he gifted this, the original street sign to us, which we've got at home, which is eventually going to be hanging in the bar. Um, so it's called Gejina Barway. We took a trip over [00:22:30] there just recently. The, the street's now been finished off. It's the most beautiful little street. It's like a grove. Um, there's brand new spanking houses over there. I, I think she'd be really, really proud of, of what she did. It's a shame she didn't live long enough to see, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um. All the effort that she put in come to fruition. She made an impact on a lot of people's lives. We were in Cuba Mall for the Blessing of the Rainbow crossing when they first installed it, and we were standing there with Georgina, [00:23:00] and the TV camera zoomed in, Oh, Georgina, can we talk to you please? And they dragged her away and we were standing there. And there was this young Maori woman, she would have been, Fifteen, sixteen, and she's going, oh my God, do you know her? Do you know her? I go, yeah, she's a very good friend. She said, oh, she's my idol. She said, I just, I respect her so much. She said, you know, I'd really like to meet her. And I said, oh, well, look, just wait here. I said, when she's finished with the TV people, um, I said, we'll introduce you. Oh, no, she said, she don't. And I went, no, it's alright, don't worry. Georgina, she came [00:23:30] back over and I said to Georgina, Oh my God, look, there's this young girl here, she's a very, very big fan of you. This young girl, she was trembling. Absolutely trembling. And Georgie just had this beautiful knack of soothing people. Um, and she just, oh, she said, Oh, what's your name, darling? You know, and, um, It was just watch, to watch her in action, Um, it was absolutely tremendous. She could talk to anybody on any level. Uh, it was, uh, an amazing thing that, um, She had the ability to do. We'd been to many speeches that she'd done, many [00:24:00] functions that she'd performed at. Georgina never ever took notes. She spoke from the heart. She just got up and bam, she went for it. Um, uh, which was an amazing thing for her. And I think I learned a lot from her as well. Um, because she had that ability to talk to anybody on any level and never take notes. She was outstanding. So, who here has been to S &M's? Smells amazing. I think most of the people have. Good, good. If you haven't, you've got to go and we'll talk a bit more about it later, but the reason I'm bringing it up now is [00:24:30] I'm thinking about your beautiful, uh, photo wall. Those of you who have been will, will know it, where you've got photos of, of Georgina and of other amazing, beautiful people from our communities who've, who've passed on, and I wondered if there was anybody that comes to mind now that you'd, you'd also like to talk about. Um, I've got to be really honest. Years and years and years ago, I took a trip over to Melbourne and I went out to St Kilda and it was the Prince of Wales Hotel. And they used to have this fabulous gay bar up the top with [00:25:00] all the big drag shows and things like that. And as I was walking up the stairs, they had all these photos of all these drag queens that were performers at this particular venue. And I just thought, what a fabulous idea. Through the years, it always locked in my mind, and through the years, um, we um, I've got to diversify a bit here actually. There was a very good friend of ours, um, transgender, [00:25:30] um, Uh, who died from HIV AIDS, and, um, we went to her funeral, and, um, uh, uh, she was adopted at a very early age. Her family, when she died, were absolutely abhorred that she was no longer Alex. They kept on referring to her as Alex, not Alexis, which was her chosen name. And, um, we went to her funeral. It was in the basement of a house in Newtown. It was not even a funeral. glory or anything that was very, very, [00:26:00] um, subtle. And we walked outside and, um, her relatives, um, didn't like the fact that she was transgender and, um, that she died from HIV AIDS. And they threw her casket onto the back of a rusty old two -door Mazda utility and said, take it away and burn it. And there was a group of us there. That stood around and heard all this happening. So we started the Afterlife Memorial Trust, [00:26:30] because we believed that everybody should die with dignity. And Alexis didn't get that. So we started the Afterlife Memorial Trust and Alexis was the first photo to go up on that wall. Um, and it just stemmed from there. Um, about all the people that made a contribution to our community. Um, we learnt a lot from our days with Georgie and working the street and doing all the things that we did when we were young. Um, we needed to protect [00:27:00] our history and our culture, where we came from, um, who paved those ways. You know, the ways for us to be where we are today, um, and that's just been locked in, so everybody on that wall has got, it's now more like a shrine than a, most of them have passed on, but it's, it's um, I don't think we should ever forget. Where we came from, where we started from, and where we're going to. I think it's very, very important that we remember where we came from, and who paved the [00:27:30] way for us to be where we are today. So that's what the Wall of Fame is all about. It's about remembering those that paved the way for all of us to be where we are today. I think that's great. I think, you know, as a trans person myself, certainly for me personally, whenever I come into your bar and I see all the trans people in particular that you've honoured, it really means a lot to me because I think that in the times that we're in, it's [00:28:00] particularly important that we remember heroes like Georgina, Alexis, who have paved the way for us. So I really, I really just want to send love to you that, that, that you'd do that honour, right? She's got it. Thank you. Thank you. It's like. When, um, of course, Krissi Witoko, the Evergreen Coffee Lounge, um, uh, for all the younger members of our community that was too young to go to the bars, Krissi would hand over the Evergreen for them so they could have coffee meet -ups and get together and mix with people of their own ilk, you know, [00:28:30] um, of other gay and lesbian people, um, which was absolutely fabulous. So, when Krissi Witoko passed away, we changed the name of the trust from the Afterlife Memorial Trust to the Krissi Witoko Memorial Trust. Um, out of that trust so far, we've, um, We've done over 23 funerals out of that trust. We do our due diligence with circumstances on how people, or when they pass away. We need to talk to the families, see how much they can contribute. I think out of that, I think we've only paid about [00:29:00] five of those funerals. Um, full on cash. The rest of them we, we will just pay, um, uh, we'll see what the family can afford. And of course you can get some money out of working in New Zealand. I think it's up to two and a half thousand dollars you can get out of them now towards funeral expenses. So we, we, we work on it and make sure that people get what they deserve, you know, um, to die with dignity. Um, and, and the trust is in a very good position at the moment. We're just about to, um, open it up a wee bit actually and do some grants. Because we're, um, sitting on a grant. [00:29:30] We started with nothing, and we used to get all our drag queens when we had, um, Power in the Night Club. They got paid for every show they did every weekend. And then we'd go to them and write, One night a year, just one night a year, we want you all to perform for free. And we'd hit up all our companies that we dealt with and get some bonus liquor stock. We'd sell tickets at 20 bucks a head for a table of 10. So, you know, money coming in off those tables. We worked really hard to raise those funds. [00:30:00] Now we're sitting on quite a financial nest egg. Um, so we're planning on doing a bit of, having a meeting, um, tomorrow actually, isn't it? Yeah. Have a meeting with the board tomorrow, we've got a board of directors. And, um, we need to spend some money, otherwise it looks like we're doing a bit of money laundering. Um, but we've sponsored, out of that trust, we've also sponsored, um, a documentary that was being done on, um, the HIV AIDS epidemic in New Zealand, because right around the world there is a, um, A storyline, or [00:30:30] a movie or something done on everywhere. New Zealand doesn't have one. Excuse me. So we donated some money towards that, I think it was about $5 ,000. It was actually going to start off as a tabletop magazine, then it got further, um, It got dragged up further and then we got some friends of ours that worked for Weta Workshop, we got them on board, so now it's being made into a documentary, which is quite fabulous because it's our history, and we need to know what we've all done about it and how far we've got. Um, [00:31:00] since those, those dire days of HIV AIDS when it first hit. I mean, we'd be going to funerals sometimes four or five times a week. And that was, um, it was a tough time. And I guess speaking of that, one of the things I've kind of been wondering about is, is so you, your career in, in bars and pubs and those are spaces where so many emotions come out, I guess. And a lot of the time I, I think of those spaces as, as joyful spaces, spaces of celebrating. Um, but also I guess it's spaces where people come to. To be with other people, to grieve and [00:31:30] have a drink in memory of people. And I imagine that during the peak of the AIDS crisis, that owning a bar, owning that kind of space would have been, would have been sometimes quite... Yeah, yeah. It was really, really tough, you know, and you'd see people walk past a drink and then you might catch AIDS, you know, that sort of thing. Um, how far we've come today is amazing. Well, I remember sitting on the steps of Bojangles one day and a gay guy said to me, What are you going to do when, um, [00:32:00] there's no longer a need for gay bars? And I went, not going to happen on my watch. While I'm alive, there's always going to be a gay bar. We always need somewhere to go. I think since 1985, 1986, when we, uh, went for homosexual law reform, Um, um, One of the major things we all said is, as gay people, gay and lesbian people, or more so towards the gay men, we just want to be treated as equals, we just want to have the same rights as everybody else. So, we got that. [00:32:30] We gained a lot, but we lost a lot at the same time, I tend to think. Nowadays, gay people can drink anywhere. Heterosexual people are of the same oop. They turn around and say, well if they can drink in our spaces, we can drink in theirs. And I think it's really important that, um, even now with S &Ms, we're a very, very mixed bar. But I treat those people that drink in there as allies, because they are there to support us. If they were homophobic, they wouldn't be there. And our main thing is [00:33:00] that, um, if you're homophobic, there's the door. You don't like it, you walk in it, walk out it. You know, this is our space. You're more than welcome to join us and be an ally, but if you're homophobic, get out. Absolutely. And so, so you have managed so many bars. Western Park Tavern, Bamboo Bar, Dominion Tavern, Toledo, Alfie's... Bojangles. Bojangles, Pound, Dome, the list goes on and on. I think it's just one of those things that it gets, you know, hospitality bites you on the ass. Once [00:33:30] you get into it, sometimes it's very stressful, um, um, but once it's, once it's in you, it's in you. And you meet some amazing, fantastic people. Um, it's just one of those things, um, that when it's got you, it's got you. Uh, we never ever anticipated. One day we were, uh, Casper's, which most of you will remember Casper's, um, uh, The owner just, um, I never ever ever saw it coming, it was fantastic, um, and um, I was, he would [00:34:00] always insist, um, that, um, he was a gay guy, and he would always insist that we never ever closed before 3am, even on a Sunday, but it was absolutely dead. And you know, you're sitting there at 11 o at night, there's nobody in the bar, and fuck, I've got another four hours to go. And then there's one particular day he said to me, he said to me, Oh look, he said, I'm just waiting on a phone call. He said, look, it's really dead quiet. He said, um, I've left my keys at home. Um, he said, you can head [00:34:30] off if you like, and give me your keys and I'll lock up. And I'm an IES suite, so I thought, great, it's eleven o at night, I can get out of here. So I gave him my keys and I shot off home. And the next morning I got a phone call from Sue, who was the office lady. And she said to me, um, it's nine o in the morning. She said to me, um, did you work last night? I went, yeah, I worked last night. She said, what time did you finish? And I said, oh, eleven o And I said, oh. And she said to me, oh, she said, who locked up? And I went, Phil locked up. She said, guess what? And I went, what? She [00:35:00] said, the bar's gone. And I went, what? She said, there's nothing here. From 11 o at night, he had arranged movers to come and take everything out. The kitchen, the kitchen ovens, the freezers, the poker machines, the glassware, the booze, everything had gone. And, um, I jumped straight into a taxi and went into the bar and I walked in there. He didn't even tell his own daughter. She walked into the bar, she walked in, walked behind the bar, and she went, Where's all the glassware? And we went, Darling, have a look around you. There was nothing. The only thing that was there [00:35:30] was the mirrors that were glued to the wall. That was the only thing that was there. And so at that stage, we didn't have a gay venue in Wellington. And through my time at Sea, I had managed to, um, I, a guy that I worked with had, he'd, um, come ashore and opened up two bars. One of them was Barney's, Um, and right next door to it he opened up a jazz club called Bojangles. Well, Bojangles wasn't working. We didn't have a gay venue in town. So I went around and saw Howard and I said, look, you've got a bar sitting there, it's doing absolutely nothing. Put [00:36:00] me in there, I'll run it, we'll turn it into a gay bar, and that way you're making some money out of it. Because right now you're sitting there with a dead bar. And he went, yeah, okay. So, um, we went in there. And um, started up Bojangles. We just had to keep this, I don't know if it's a natural instinct, you just had to keep something going for people like us to go to. And that's how Bojangles came about. And so that was where Leilani was working, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was doing a bit of DJ work down there. And for us at Pound as well. Yeah. You can't find the list of trade -owners, but [00:36:30] I think it's... Yeah. Yeah. They have a good time. They have a good time. I was working at Barney's, so I was waiting on the list. Yeah. Well, Scotty was managing, um, um, Irish bars, and then he left there and came down to manage. So it was quite funny. We were, I was... He was on one side of the stairs and he was on the other side of the stairs. So we were basically working together. It was great. I was going to ask, Scotty, would you like to come up here for a moment? Sure. Everybody give Scotty a round of applause.[00:37:00] So you've started talking a bit about Scotty, but you haven't told us yet actually how you guys met. Would you mind telling us that story? Oh yeah, okay, well I'll make this one really fast. Um, Uh, actually our paths actually kept on crossing. Um, We had some friends in Auckland and, uh, um, I was, uh, invited up to Auckland to Mr Gaye New Zealand to be a judge. And, uh, we had some friends up in Auckland, um, that lived in Kelly Street and Mount Eden. And [00:37:30] Scotty, at that stage, was living out in, um, out west. So whenever he came into town, he would go and stay with these friends in Kelly Street and Mount Eden. And they said to him one day, Oh look, you can't stay this weekend, we've got the judges coming up from Stagay, New Zealand, from Wellington. They're staying. So he would move out of the bedroom and I would move in. Uh, and then uh, we were having a, we had a night out with all the contestants from Mr Gay New Zealand, and um, we took them to a French restaurant out, um, in, in Auckland, [00:38:00] and uh, Scotty was a friend of the owner, and he used to drink in this bar all the time. And he'd say to Scotty, Oh, we've got all the contestants and the judges for Mr Gay New Zealand coming in tonight. Because it was for us, it was getting down and meet the contestants, have dinner, and get to know them on a social level. So you're looking at them and thinking, reading them, you know, who's going to be a great representative for the queer community? And so he went, Oh, I'm out of here. So he'd walk out of the restaurant and I'd walk in. Our paths just kept on crossing. Um, and then we met, um, I saw [00:38:30] him. um, uh, in the gay nightclub in Auckland, and um, uh, my boss who owned Casper's at that stage, um, I was, um, hit on him. So he said, oh, if you're in Wellington, come down and visit me. So he came down and visit me. Uh, he came down to visit Phil in the bar downstairs, uh, down in Wellington here. And, um, he had a couple of friends of his, Lisa and Anthony, from Australia. And, uh, we all ended up playing pool, and, um, Anthony, I ended up being Scotty's partner on the pool [00:39:00] table. We were playing pool for a couple of hours and then his mate said to him, Are you fucking blind? He's going like, what? And he said, you see that guy you're playing pool with, absolutely fancied you to gutless. And that's where we had our first kiss. Over the pool table at Casper's. And so how long have the two of you been together now? 33 years. Would you share your first impressions of Mel? I told him, you better make this good. [00:39:30] Awkward question. Um, first impressions, well, I actually first saw Mel at, um, the Bamboo. When I first got, or Toledo, one of the two. Bamboo. Bamboo. When I first got back from running pubs in England, and um, I used to go in and play the Fishtails pinball machine that was there, and watch Mel on the bar, and he'd be flipping the glasses and things, and I'm like... I'm going to get to know him one day. And it was about a year later that the whole story that you just told happened. And um, [00:40:00] yeah, just first kiss over the pool table. I just had that, you know, that butterflies in your stomach feeling you get. And I just knew something was right. I was actually on my way to Melbourne to go and start a new job over there. And um, after I'd met Mel, I got back home. Um, cause we were doing a tiki tour up the country, so it took about a week to get back home. And I got back home to find this card from Mel, and it said, um, it's always the same, you meet someone, they're either straight, or going overseas, or starting a new life, [00:40:30] could you at least, when you do go to Melbourne, leave from Wellington, so I can say goodbye? I thought, oh yeah, alright, so I hitched back down, and um, he was outside Casper's painting the sign, for their birthday. And I just walked up and said, you know, Is there anywhere someone can get a drink around here? And um, that was basically it. I did go to Melbourne, purely to hand in my notice. And, flew back about three days later. And the rest is history. Moved in, that was it. Never moved out. [00:41:00] Committed murder, I've been out in ten. That's true. So, so the two of you, you're both working in different bars, And you're thinking, you're making money for other people, Yeah, yeah, um, we were, we'd worked so many bars and I don't know why it was just, wherever we worked the queer community would follow me around for some reason. Um, um, and we got promised a lot of things over, over, over the time and they never, ever came to fruition. And then um, [00:41:30] Scotty came in to manage um, Barney's next door and I was managing Bojangles. And then we sat down one day and went, what the hell are we doing? I don't know. We're working our arses off making a lot of money for other people. It's about time that we did something for ourselves. So that's when we ventured into our first one, which was the Dome, which is now the Welsh Dragon Bar. Um, we went in there, um, and of course you've got to remember, they were the old public toilets, many, many years ago. We spent six months in there stripping down all these beautiful remu archways, and [00:42:00] there was graffiti in front of them. Oh, it was fabulous! Oh my God, that was fun, you know. Um, and the tiles, we stripped down like 17 layers of paint just off these beautiful re -muajas. And all the tiles, there was graffiti and phone numbers, call me for a hot... It was incredible what was there. Um, we've actually left a, um... It's now, what is it, uh, 25 years now, and nobody knows where it is, but we've actually left, we, we spent six months stripping this place out, built the [00:42:30] bar, uh, we've left a time capsule, um, and, um, All the builders that were working on the place would work through the day and the night, and then we'd finish work about 11 o at night doing what we want to do. Then we'd sit down and play 500 opaque with all these builders and smoke a few joints and have a few drinks, you know. So there's, um, the pack of playing cards, there's a joint inside this timeshell, there's all the, um, all the write -ups that were in the paper about these two gay guys that were doing up these old [00:43:00] public toilets. All those, all that, um, artwork's in there, um, all the paperwork, um, um, Nobody knows it's there, and it's in a glenfiddich tube, isn't it? And we heavily sealed it all in tons and tons and tons of glad wrap, in case the place ever got flooded. And when they eventually pull that place down, or it gets knocked down, or it falls down in an earthquake, they'll find it. So it's a bit of our history and our culture that's caught under one of the floors there. I think one of the things to also point out is that, at that time, because [00:43:30] we had no money, we had to, um, we had no money. You know, financial supporter. Um, but at that time, because we, we, we, we, just the whole community came together. We, every day, we'd see people turn up. There was, you know, um, Stefan who's here now, he was one. Yeah. Um, lots of people would turn up, they'd strip paint, they'd, they'd, they'd sandpaper things for us, they'd paint. And I'd say, probably about a hundred different people over that period turned up at different times just to help. And, um, because they knew they were going to get [00:44:00] the venue for themselves. But it was, it was just, the support was incredible. You know, from the community. Yeah, we, um, we had that one for a year, and, and, uh, our finance actually fell through on that one, as we were getting it. The rent from Wellington City Council. Mark Blumsky was the mayor at the time. And, um, we said to Mum, you know, um, The old public toilets down there, they're up for lease. There'd been a kebab shop or something in there at some stage and it was disgusting. And um, we said to him, you know, we really want [00:44:30] to get that building. And he said, oh, do we own that? We go, of course you do, it's Wellington City Council, you know. And um, the rent on that was $500 a week. Which is, today is, is outstanding, you know, if you could pay that rent today it would be bloody fabulous. Um, but um, so, so we got it, we did it all up, and um, as Scotty said, all the community came together. Um, we had business partners, somebody else stepped in and said, oh, you know, we got some money. So we worked our arses off on, um, getting it all done and prepared and everything. Um, it was called the Dome Piano and [00:45:00] Garden Bar, it was absolutely fantastic. We had a baby, black, black baby. Baby Grand Piano down one end and Dancefloor down the other. And then our business partner turned in to be the biggest prick out. It was the day after we opened, pretty much, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, we'd done all the work and then he just turned, no, he'd got what he wanted. And we ended up selling it to him for a dollar. We lost about $80 ,000 on that one. And uh, we just thought, the old story, if you fall off the horse, get back up and ride again. So that's where we went, um, [00:45:30] Went up to the oaks and opened up power lines. Um, the nightclub, um, which was absolutely phenomenal. But the building was an absolute dump. But the, um, atmosphere was real electric in there. It was absolutely fantastic. And, uh, the good thing about that was, um, Scotty was, um, The Irish bar that Scotty used to manage, Kiri O'Shea's, uh, we walked in there and our ex -business partner, um, that we sold the bar to for a dollar, was sitting at the bar and he'd lost [00:46:00] everything. He'd lost everything. And, uh, we walked in. Just walked straight past him, sat down, and the barmaid went, Oh my gosh, she said, went up to your nightclub, she said, it's evening! You must, you must be making a fortune! He just slammed his drink down, got up and walked out. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, bitch. Yeah, so we had a great time there, didn't we? Um, our closing night [00:46:30] at Pound. People were in the queue. The queue was going from the front door all the way down to the end of Pigeon Park, where that big, the bow of the waka is. And people going, let us in, let us in. And we're going, we can't, we can't. I said, you know, we told you to get here early, you know. Um, the queue was huge. Our license finished at 5am in the morning and we had Polly Fuller, she'd organised all these major production shows which were absolutely fantastic. Well it got to 5 o in the morning and we said, oh we've got to close. Polly said we can't because [00:47:00] we've still got a lot more shows to do. And I said, well what about the cops? She said, what about the cops? What are they going to do, walk in here and close us down? We were closing down already. So we went right through to 7am and um, I didn't hear nothing from the police or nothing. I think half of them were actually in there. Some of them probably were. I also wanted to ask, um, about, uh, so in 2003, a year before civil unions, uh, [00:47:30] were legalised, ten years before, um, same -sex marriage was legalised, you guys went on a very special radio show in 2003. Would you be able to tell me about, about My Best Friend's Wedding? My Ben Friend's Wedding. Ben Friend's Wedding. It actually came as a joke, came about as a joke on air because, um, Polly, Pauline Gillespie and the Morning Crew, they were talking about, um, what they did that weekend and someone went, they went to their best friend's wedding. And it just popped into Polly's head. And she went, oh, my bent friend's wedding.[00:48:00] And they just decided to do this competition where they got people from around the country to compete in a sort of a survivor style competition. And every day there was, um, cause there was no, you gotta remember, there was no, um, Facebook or anything like that then. So, um, yeah. Um, and every day we'd do silly things on radio, and whoever, like, got the least votes, and in the first week everyone, everyone was on air, there were six couples, um, three lesbian couples, three gay couples. And, um, in the first week we all did silly things on air, and in the second week whoever had the lowest votes [00:48:30] had to pack up, move out of the hotel, and gone. And, um, so, and somehow we managed to survive through the whole two weeks, and got to the final day, and, and won it. And, um, flew to Hawaii to get legally married. And, uh, it was the, it was the time of our lives. It was just... Yeah, um, they, they, Polly, they firmly believe that gay and lesbian people should be able to get married. And for 91ZM... Um, Polly just announced it on air. And her boss called her into the office and said, Polly, I think you should talk to me [00:49:00] about this before you go doing these things. She's going, well it's a bit late now. So they did invite her, they got, um, We'd just come back from Melbourne from my niece's wedding and our security guards actually said, Oh, this radio station's doing this, um, this wedding competition and we've, we've put your names into it. Um, uh, cause we think you'd be perfect. And I'll be going, oh yeah, well, you know. They, they selected six couples. It was Auckland, um, Waikato, uh, Bay of Plenty, Wellington, Christchurch, and Hamilton. And, [00:49:30] um, we didn't, we, we knew, um, a few of the radio DJs and things like Nick Tansley. And, um, he said to us one day, um, Oh, you guys should have entered my Bent Friends meeting, you guys would have been perfect. And we went, well, our security entered us into it, but we didn't get, originally get, um, selected in the randomly selected six couples. We were actually, um, promoting David and David, another couple, in the nightclub. On the weekend nights, saying vote for these guys at my Ben's friends wedding, you know, support Wellington, let's get them, let's get them off to get married. Let's get these two guys married. Um, [00:50:00] so they brought all these people to Wellington and they put them up at the Duxton Hotel, which is now the closed down Amora, um, which is going to be re -opening next year. And um, um, They put everybody up there and they paid everybody, um, $135 a day each, so they paid for the hotel, they paid for your breakfast, and gave you $135 a day each, um, to have, um, lunch, dinner, and a bottle of wine, basically. And, um, they'd set you targets on, like, they'd have a debrief at night, [00:50:30] and then they'd have a brief in the morning as well. We were running the nightclub through at five o in the morning and then going down to, um, right down to the hotel, put a shower on, and then on the air at six o in the morning to ten a .m., and then we'd go and sleep all day. And we'd do crazy things, like Scotty was saying, um, about... Madness things. I'd take you around the supermarket before it opened, New World Thornton, and you'd have to run around the supermarket and find something that reminded you of your lover.[00:51:00] I, um, you just had to think of things. And I went into one of the sections and saw some flaky puff pastry. Took it up to, who was it, Nick Tansley? That was Nick Tansley. So we took it up to Nick Tansley and he said, How on earth does flaky puff pastry remind you of Mel? And I said, well, once it warms up, it swells to so much times its original size. He's pulling the microphone back. And I went, just like our love. It just, things like that. [00:51:30] But we, we played with it. You know, every, there was a time when they separated all the couples, and they asked one couple a whole lot of questions, one of the couples, one of the people from the couples, a whole lot of questions. And then they asked the other partner the same questions, and saw who gave the same answers. So, of course. We were having a laugh, we were just enjoying ourselves. So they asked Mel where we first kissed and he said, um, Over the pool table. Over the pool table at Casper's. I said, on the lips. So, and that's, I think that's how we won [00:52:00] because we kept on just taking the big fun and having a good time. Making people laugh. The first week was doing all these crazy stunts and, um, Like, At the deep brief at night, they'd say to you, um, right, tomorrow morning, remember, you're going to be on radio, but you're not on TV, nobody can see you. You've got to come up with a gimmick that's going to entertain the listeners. Um, or we went, oh yeah, alright then. So we went and sat down and went, oh, let's write a poem. So we went down to the warehouse and bought this cheesy Hawaiian music ukulele. And, um, and we wrote this poem. [00:52:30] It was a bit of a political statement, to be quite honest. It was aimed at the government. Um, why shouldn't we, why do we have to go overseas to get married? So we wrote this poem, and it was, um, and we put it to this, um, cheesy Hawaiian music. And, and it was, um, we'd love to wed in New Zealand. It really would be fun. Instead, we're off to Hawaii. Our island in the sun, with golden sands and swinging palms, they'll welcome us with open arms. Get married here, it's okay, we don't mind if you are gay. And, um, it was, [00:53:00] it was just a sting at the government. Why should we have to do this? As, as gay and lesbian people, why shouldn't we be able to get married? Um, and, and, we, um, did this, It went through to the end, uh, the second week was like Survivor. All the couples that had the least amount of votes saying, Ah, to go back to the hotel, back up and get out. Um, and we made it through all the way and we're going, Oh my God, I think we never thought for a minute we were going to win it. It was a political statement for us. The funny thing is we're actually the only couple that's still together. [00:53:30] Out of all six couples, yeah. Yeah, so they did get the right ones. They got the right ones, yeah. During the competition, it was like, it was, it was 2003 and they had bomb threats. Um, death threats. We had to be put in the hotels under fake names. Um, no one could know where we were staying. It was, it was mad, it was crazy. There was all that, that, that horrible homophobic things, you know, action out there. And the radio station were getting calls, and the Christians, of course, they were jumping up and down, you know. Um, [00:54:00] it was horrible. Um, so yeah, everybody was under false names. Nobody, like, if they'd ring up and say, oh, have you got Mr. Vaughan or Mr. Kennedy there? No, sorry, we've got nobody here by that name. Because we were all under false names. Um, all because of the homophobia this radio station was taking. But, my bent friend's wedding. Took 91ZM in Auckland, which had never been number one. My bent friend's wedding took them to number one in Auckland. Um, and they played the wedding live right throughout the whole country. Um, 91ZM, and people were ringing up going, Oh my god, we [00:54:30] had a power shortage in Hamilton, can you play it again? It was like, It was insane. I think one of the best things that came out of it was all the stories later on. Like that, um, Girl that rang up and said to the station that she hadn't spoken to her mother since she'd come out as a lesbian for about two years. After listening to the show, she made contact. And there was so many heartwarming stories that people told that just, you know, that they really did a wonderful thing. She got hold of her mother and this Maori fellow rang up and he was like, Oh geez, you [00:55:00] know, I'm not really sure about this, you know, this gay thing. He said, but I've been listening to this program. He said, why not? Why not? People love each other, why not? And it was amazing. It was changing people's attitudes. Which was absolutely fantastic. And it was quite tough for us. They treated us like, um, shall I say queens. We landed in Hawaii, they gave us a thousand dollars American each. Everywhere you go, you do not get a bus, you do [00:55:30] not get a taxi, you get a limousine. You ring up the limousine company, they will come and pick you up and take you shopping. And we still worked for it, like we were doing the breakfast show live from Hawaii. It was fantastic. Back to New Zealand with Polly and Grant in the studio, um, and then at night time we were doing the drive time show with Stables, um, who was the DJ that came over with us as well. That one was a bit more difficult because that was from the bar. That was from the bar, we were doing it live from the bar. Stables is a bit of a character. Oh yeah. So we had a really good time, we went [00:56:00] over to the um, I think one of the best things there though was one of the broadcast back, there was um, a guy in the bar that was looking at all the gear, cause the studio floor was on the first floor of the hotel. We were in the penthouse. Um, the studio floor was on the first floor and the bar was down just below it so they could get the transmission. And there was a guy in there that asked Stables what was going on, and he told him. And this guy ran Hawaiian radio and TV. And he turned around and said, oh, do you mind if we cover this? So he's like, yeah, no, go for it. So after [00:56:30] that, after we were on the TV over there, everywhere we went. I hear the guys are on TV last night. What the hell? It was, it was just fantastic. We went over to the international markets for, uh, uh, right across the road from the outrigger, um, was the international markets and there's this rather large Hawaiian woman sitting there and she's making all these beautiful French Pani Lays, fresh French Panis. And we said, do you do wedding lays? And she went, oh yeah, I do wedding lays. She looked at us. Gay wedding? [00:57:00] Yeah. Oh darling, she said, when's the wedding? We said tomorrow. She said, I'll stay up all night. And she did. We got there, and because of the time difference, we, we had to be, the wedding had to be like 8 .30 in the morning down on the beach. We went over there at 7 .30 to pick them up, and they waited. It was a beautiful hot pink and blue friends party, and of course then the priest, when he did it, he was a cross between, he was a Catholic priest too, and he was a um, a cross between Rolf Harris and Kenny Rogers. Um, and of course, he did all the blessing and then [00:57:30] of course then he puts another layer. But time you got there, you fucking need it Ah. It was a really good time. It was a good time. I think that It was actually on the first of April in Hawaii that we got married. Um. The night before we went out for our slag do, and, um, At Hula's. At Hula's. We were out very late. And, um, not feeling... We were staggering back to the hotel at about 2am in the morning. The wedding's at 8 .30. We weren't feeling the best. We got up and Mel's like, Oh my God, I need some food and some orange juice [00:58:00] or something. So he said, I'll just run downstairs and grab that while you start showering and getting ready. So he walks out the door. And then there's a knock at the door and I thought, oh, he's forgotten his key. So I opened the door and it was Mikey, the Duchess, who was there. And he's like... Gay liaison. Gay liaison. And he said, you're on air in like one minute. You've got to get downstairs to the studio room. I'm like, well Mel's not here. He said, just go, go, go. I'll leave him a note. So I shoot downstairs. I was just in one of those moods. Knocked on the door. Stables opens the door and he's like, Hi, how's it going Scotty? How was your day last night? Did you have a good time? [00:58:30] And I just sort of looked a bit sad. And he said, what's up? Is everything alright? I said... No, I don't know what happened. I can't find Mal. I haven't seen him since last night. We just can't go through with this. And he was like, It's April Fools. He was like, Oh my God, Oh my God. He said, You've got to do that on air. So of course, of course, it's the second of April in New Zealand. So no one knew what the hell was going on. [00:59:00] Knocked on the door, did the whole thing again. And, and, and, and. Polly said to us afterwards, you could hear a pin drop in the studio. The producer was out there going, we spent 50 ,000 fucking dollars on this! And I said, oh, it is the 2nd of April in New Zealand, but it's April Fools over here. And Polly just, on top of it all, just went, you bitch! Live on air, it was so much fun. I got to speak to Jack Johnson. Yeah, I got sent away. He got sent away. No, Scotty, you've [00:59:30] been bad. You're not allowed to talk to him. No, I'll speak to Jack Johnson. His heart is fabulous. We had a great time. Good fun. After the wedding was over, after Rolf Harris had married us, um, we went up to the studio room, um, um, and we were broadcasting live back to, um, um, to New Zealand, um, from the studio room. Um, and we had this little waiter who was running up and down the stairs just bringing more champagne and more champagne. By the time we got up there we'd knocked off those two bottles and go and get some more, you know. So by this time we were pretty well liquored up. And then, um, [01:00:00] we left there and we went over to the far side of the island for the wedding reception. And Stables, who was the DJ that came over with us, he ran across to the bottle store, the 7 -Eleven across the road and bought some champagne. Jumped into the limousine with it and the driver's going... Oh, you can't, you can't bring your own champagne, you've got to drink the champagne that's in the limousine. And we're going, oh, don't worry about it, we've got ZM's gold card, we'll just pay you for it anyway, don't worry. And this is all being broadcast live back to ZM. We didn't actually know at the time though, because as Stables got into the [01:00:30] limo, he tripped. And he had his phone connected to ZM. The radio station. And he dropped it under our seat. And so we had no idea. And during the whole trip over there, it was being broadcast live. And you know, like six or seven bottles of champagne later, the mouths were going. We, um, we had these two young girls, um, Jax and Courtney, that, um, they were, they were the runners up in the competition. And, um, they said to us, hey, um, how would you guys feel about it if we did it? Jackson Courtney came over to Hawaii with you [01:01:00] as your witnesses for the wedding. We went, that would be fabulous, because we love these two young girls. They were an absolutely amazing, lovely young couple. Um, and so we were in this limousine ride, we'd been liquored up to the hilt with champagne. We were going out to the vast side of the island, we were all being our natural selves, and we drove past this all -girls Catholic school. And we're going, oh my god, look you two, there's an all girls catholic school there. Imagine the fun you two could have in there, you know. My god, this was, this was going live to air. And, and [01:01:30] back in the studio here in Wellington, um, Araha, who was the, doing the radio jock that morning, she's going to her boss, Um, should I cut this off? Because they're being really raw. And he's going, no, let it flow. And um, so we did that. And it wasn't until we got back and our friends picked us up at the airport and they took us home. Um, and we walked into our house and there's a surprise wedding party happening, you know, um, all our friends. And they were chatting about the whole thing. Oh, you've got so much to tell us, blah, blah, blah. And they're going, oh, the best part was the [01:02:00] limousine ride. And we're going, huh? What limousine ride? And they're going, the limousine ride? When you'd done the wedding and you were going to the reception, we're going, what are you talking about? They went, oh yeah, it was live on air. Um, we didn't know. Cause Stables had, and with the things we were saying, it was quite, quite raw. But um, um, yeah, they did it well. They did it well. Lovely, Jesse, awesome. Well, do you want to maybe come and sit here so you guys can share the microphone? Alright, so, any questions? [01:02:30] Pop your hand up, I'll come around and see ya. Kia ora, love your work. Um, do you have any thoughts about retiring or the legacy of SNMs or more generally the impact you've made on gay nightlife in Wellington? Um, no, not really. It's just, um, we are getting older. Um, I'm coming up 70 in March, so, um, it's about, um, I'd love to retire. I really would love to retire. Um, we were [01:03:00] selling the bar about four years ago and we, um, had a buyer for it. Um, um, it was going to actually become Eagle Bar Wellington. Um, um, Kurt from Eagle Bar in Auckland was going to buy the bar. And, uh, we'd been through, Kurt was coming down, um, and, um, every week he was flying down and we were going through the bar and everything and all that and, um, we got, we got the funds that we wanted for to, to sell the bar. Um, and then on the day that, um, We were going to sign all the paperwork. Auckland went back into lockdown with COVID for four months. [01:03:30] So his bar in Auckland got closed down for four months. So he had to put it on hold. He said, look, I still want to do it, but I just can't do it right now. We've been closed for four months. Now we're going to, um, Now it's open again, we're going to get it up and running. So he got it up and running, but that's the last we ever heard of it. So, and then we thought, COVID came along, it bit us on the ass, and we turned around and went, well, now, now, now with, um, the way the state of the economy, the current economy right now, Um, it's not a buyer's or a seller's market. Nobody wants to touch hospitality in Wellington at the moment. [01:04:00] It's a really tough time. So we've just decided that we'll just keep it going for a few more years, and, um, and ride it out until, you know, um, we've got the opinion that, you know, you ride the wave, um, the tide's not going to stay out forever. Sooner or later it will come back in. Um, um, at the moment we've taken it off the market, and, uh, we're just enjoying carrying it going. We've got a roof over our head, we've got an income coming in, and we'll wait till the tide comes back in. So I don't think we're going anywhere in a hurry too soon. Yeah. And so you've been managing them for 18 years? Yeah, we started our 19th year in February. So any of [01:04:30] you scamps who haven't been there, there are a few who didn't put their hands up, what's the address? Uh, 176 Cooper Street, right opposite Burgerfuel, and right next door to Midnight Expresso. And when are we open? Uh, 5 o tonight. 5 o tonight, so expect to see some of you there. Now are there any more questions? Any other questions? Yeah. Hello, love your stories, could listen to you two all day. Um, over these 18 years in S &M's I bet there have been some absolutely wild nights. Have you got, I don't [01:05:00] know, a couple of favourite stories from, from that bar? Oh, yeah, some I don't think we can talk about on here though. Especially the, yeah, those two older gentlemen in there. Oh, oh, yeah, you can tell that story. You can tell that story, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think everybody here's got a bit of a broad mind. I went to go into the um, cos we do, every hour or so we check the toilets, make sure they're all clean and, you know, got paper towels and that. And I pushed the door open of the gents, and they got pushed back at me. [01:05:30] I thought, no, push the door again, not push back. I'm like, it's my bloody bar, you can't keep me out of it. So I put my shoulder on it, pushed the door full on, and these two... Elderly gentlemen with their pants around their ankles and, um, should we say, you know, they were... Excited. Both flat on the ground, because I pushed them over. And I was just like, oh boys, come on, this is a, you know, communal toilet here. There's urinals and everything, just [01:06:00] go in there and finish off. So I told them to go into the paraplegia, and their pants were around their ankles, so they kind of were... Bouncing out of one toilet into the paraplegic's closet door and I'm like, oh yeah, okay, we'll just, we'll just ignore that. Carry on. Oh, and uh, one Sunday night we were working and it was only Scotty and I, it was when we used to wake up on Sunday nights. And um, it was about 11 o at night and we were just about to say, well let's close up and go home for the night. And then the door swung open [01:06:30] and Paul Holmes walked in. With a couple of mates. And he's going, why are you closing up? We're like, oh no, come on in Paul, it's fine, you know, come on. So we sat down, we had a few drinks with him, then his two mates eventually left, and then we sat there with Paul Holmes. Um, which was, oh it must have been 3 .30, 4 .30 in the morning. And we were just drinking Black Sand Boca and telling stories, and he was telling us about his wife and his children, um, um, Millie, and um, Like, at this stage, again, we were liquored to the hilt, and we, this was on a Sunday night, we were closed on the Monday, [01:07:00] um, and then we reopened again on the Tuesday, um, and then on Tuesday night, very early in the evening, um, one of our regulars came in, and he happened to work for TV3. And he walked in, and he said, um, he was chilling away, and he said, oh, is, um, is Paul Holmes gay? And I'm thinking, why the hell are you asking me this? Because, um, I don't know. He was just in here on Sunday night, we were closed Monday, and now you're in here asking me if he's gay. I mean, no, no, no, Paul's not [01:07:30] gay. I said, well, what made you ask this? He said, well, one of our work colleagues was on the early shift, and he was walking down Cooper Street, and he saw, used to, and Paul Holmes in the middle, Um, um, um, um, um, um, um. No, no, no. I said, Paul is definitely not gay. We were actually just holding each other up. That was fantastic. Paul was great, eh? Really really nice man. So yeah, there have been some funny stories, some really good ones. Some you can't talk [01:08:00] about. Some you can. So my question is around like building a queer location, right? Tēnā koe. I mean, I'll genericise it to queer at least. Um, how much comes from the people running it and the events and location and like, the, the, essentially like the atmosphere that they put out into the bar? And how much comes from your, the people that show up there? Because I realise that like, eventually once it's like, um, well established, you know, you can draw a lot from the community, [01:08:30] but like, how much do you need to put into it before people start showing up? It's a lot of hard work really, isn't it? It's not as easy, um, it can be quite stressful. Um, um, you rely on, on a regular clientele. Um, especially in today's economy, you never know what day is going to be a busy day. You can't select which is going to be a busy day. Um, we, um, get, like, all our, our, our staff, we sort of try and handpick them actually. We usually get university students. Um, we've got a [01:09:00] belief that, um, Students need a job. They need the money. Help them with their studies. Um, and we take them on board knowing absolutely nothing. And we like to train them up ourselves. So they do things, no matter who makes what cocktail, they should all go out looking the same. Um, and if you hire somebody that's worked in other venues, they usually tend to bring their bad habits with them. And we tend to really want to make sure that everything goes out the same. So if you, if you start them from scratch. Um, [01:09:30] um, you train them up the way you want them to do. And I think it's all the work and effort that they put in, um, that makes the atmosphere well. We have a very good cross -section of people, married couples, straight couples, um, the amount of, um, Straight boys, shall I say, that come in. Oh no, I'm straight, I'm straight, I'm straight. No they're not. We used to, um, we used to have one guy who's a very attractive man. He used to come in in a suit, um, quite stunning. And, um, he'd come and stand down the end of the bar. He'd usually come in [01:10:00] around about Christmas time. And he'd always hide behind the Christmas tree, cause it would go right up to the roof and nobody would see him in there. And he said, no, no, I'm straight, I'm straight. And we thought, no you're not, no you're not. And eventually he came out and um, he lives in America now. And he sent us a letter saying, guess what he said, I'm fully out. And he said, and now I'm even a bottom. Uh, we've had proposals in there, gay and lesbian proposals in there. A couple of [01:10:30] fabulous weddings in there. Yeah, we just recently had a funeral in there. Um, so yeah. It's all about the atmosphere and, and creating an atmosphere. I think a lot of it too is, when people walk in the bar, um, we just sort of tend to say, look, take a book, take a table, take your time, um, and just come to the bar when you're ready. And I think that's most bars that you go to, you know, oh, can I have a gin and tonic? Yeah, there's your gin, that'll be 12 bucks, thanks, and they fuck off and leave you alone, you know. Um, it's making people feel welcome. And, and taking [01:11:00] your time, not putting pressure on them. Um, and that's what keeps on bringing people back. We have a really good rapport with a lot of the restaurants around Cuba Street. Um, El Matador, we get a lot of tourists coming in going, what's really good to eat around here? And we're going, well look, right across the road you've got Kisa over there, Mediterranean across the road on the other side of Zombra, uh, Italian tapas. If you want a really good steak, go to El Matador. Um, the most amazing, best steaks in town. So, and, and like. A lot of those places don't take bookings. Um, they go, look, we can't get you a table for an hour. [01:11:30] Um, just pop down and see Mel and Scotty. They'll look after you and we'll give you a call, um, when we've got a table for you. So that sort of, uh, it's just building up that rapport with, with customers and clientele, making them feel relaxed and making them want to come back. So they come and have a few dinner, uh, pre, pre -dinner cocktails, and then they end up coming back again after dinner for more. So it's just, it's relying on those people just to keep you ticking over. It's not an easy job. At times it gets quite stressful. Um, and who's winning the backgammon competition at the moment? These guys are prolific, [01:12:00] uh, players of games. And one of them has got to be backgammon. And there's always a competition, I think, between the two of you. It goes on and on and on. That's um, pretty much our regular night off, eh, because when we're at home we don't go out, so we'll sit at home, watch TV, have a couple of drinks and play backgammon. And um, yes, I am, uh, I am second, second at the moment, but it does change. [01:12:30] He made me print off little scoresheets and we've got a book of them. So we can go back. But it's always, each day it's like, you know, we'll start and he'll go, Well, so I'm the reigning champion. That was yesterday. Today is another day. Yeah, it's like Scotty was saying, we don't, I mean we're only doing four days a week now, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So, uh, We're still going to work seven days a week. Just going to swipe the ice over, do the staff wages, stock orders, things like that. [01:13:00] But generally, um, we don't want to leave the house because the bar, we spend a lot of time at the bar. And that's our party really. So when we get our, uh, Days off, we don't go out, we just stay at home. People go to us, oh what restaurant's your favourite restaurant? And we're going, home. Yeah, so we just stay home, cook dinner and play backgammon and yahtzee. That's uh, that's our downtime. That's what we enjoy doing, so yeah. Spending time together. Yeah, and um, I'm the reigning champion. [01:13:30] Sorry, you guys are probably going to get annoyed by this question. Um, especially because I don't drink, so I don't come to the bar that often. But I'm wondering what, um, Something that I thought made you guys really special over the years was that you would have things like, before bingo became a thing, you had binge, karaoke, all that kind of stuff, which some people might find cheesy. But everybody loved it. Do you think you'll ever have stuff like that again at S &M's or? Nah. [01:14:00] Bonic contention. Um, yeah, I mean the karaoke was great. It used to work really, really well. But, uh, and we used to get some fantastic singers, especially with singers that were coming out of downstage theatre or places like that, that could really, really sing. Um, but in the end it was outweighed by the ones who couldn't sing and thought they could. And one particular person would come in and of course, um, didn't drink, so would just have a Coke or a coffee or something. And, um, Would do 16, [01:14:30] 17 songs a night. Um, in the end it just did our head in. And we're just gonna, let's just kill this karaoke for a while. Um, there's no, no thing at the moment to say that, um, we won't bring back karaoke at the moment. Um, we'll probably look at that. We were talking about this last night actually, weren't we? Um, so we'll probably bring back that. Um, Bingo was absolutely fun, but the Duchess got a little bit tired of it, so, um, she quit it, and, um, we just thought we'd let that one go. Um, and [01:15:00] this is a, this is a thing for me, and, um, going back in time, going back through our history and our culture, um, you look around these days, Every straight venue is doing bingo and they've got the drag queens in. I remember a time when the queens would walk into a bar and they'd turn around and say to them, We don't want your type in here. Exactly. You know, and the hatred was just, it was venomous. And um, Seira moko matamu tamaraa, nair neto hau nei ngangu kemora [01:15:30] ,好 zato roi api i kr Naruna nak. Pou tamaraa kemora, nair neto hau nei ngangu kemora, Ngta suen maioreto mihi... Pou matamu nau neitegaa, There's just something about hospitality. That people remember, you know, [01:16:00] like I said, I met you when I was severely underaged, um, and you go, I don't know why everyone needs to follow us, but that was the thing that, you know, for those younger people that don't know, wherever Mel, and then Scotty eventually, um, wherever he went, that's where the gay community would go. And um, I just don't, do you think you're the last of that kind of personality, hospitality in our queer community? What do you think of? Where our queer community is heading, [01:16:30] maybe that's an unfair question to ask you. Especially with what's going on in the world, I think we're quite lucky here in Aotearoa New Zealand. And that's not perfect here, but a lot of the shit that's going on. You know, you're that generation we're here to be tough as shit. And, um, sometimes I used to think, oh God, males can be real mean sometimes, but, you know, context is everything. And now I get the younger ones going, that's really mean Aunty Lani, and I'm like, oh, you don't know. [01:17:00] I'm allowed, don't judge me. But I'll let you talk. Um, no, no, I think there's always room for somebody else to come along and take over. Um, as I said, welcome to the Antiques Roadshow. Um, we're just a couple of old antiques that aren't going away really, you know. Um, eventually we will. You know, um, and it will be, excuse me, up to some new blood to come in and take over. Um, but you've got to remember also, as you were saying, the way the state of the world is at the moment. Um, I remember when Georgina was in the bar and she was doing a, um, what they call a postcard script for World Pride in Sydney. [01:17:30] And, um, the... She did some of the filming down at Parliament for it and then Georgina says, No, no, no, we're going up to my friend's bar, we're going to do some filming up there because of the Wall of Fame. She wanted that on camera. And, um, she did this postcard and they played it at World Pride in Sydney just before Kylie Minogue went on stage, which was absolutely fabulous, you know. Um, but one thing at the end of the postcard script that Georgina did say was, um, you know, um, you know, she said, um, um, um, Happy World Pride, um, [01:18:00] and shout it out so loud that we can hear it in Aotearoa, New Zealand, but a word of cautionary warning. Be very careful of what we've gained, because the present state of the economy could be taken away tomorrow. And you look at what Trump's doing over in America at the current present time. Um, no, no trans in the military, all this sort of thing. Um, he's just been, you know, That's homophobic asshole and that's the sort of thing Georgina was talking about. I think, we will [01:18:30] eventually bow out, but not in the foreseeable future, until somebody else comes along and takes over the reins. There already as Ziverse, and that's for a different clientele, because we have this Like when we had Pound, it was um, it was, that was aimed at everyone. We had a lot more of the younger, um, clientele as well, because we were younger ourselves. But as we've developed and got older, we've, we've, we've changed. We're more of a, more of a community bar now. I mean, downstairs, we, we do, you know, we give that space free to, um, [01:19:00] the book club and to the kink community and, and that kind of thing. So, you know, we're, we're more of a community bar now. We're older. We're getting older. So really. Doing things a little bit easier for us, yeah. Um, the nightclub was really demanding and six years of, of um, doing Pound was great, but by the end of it we were knackered. Um, and like, we'd go to work with sunglasses on, open up at 4 .30 and then we'd close at 5am. By the time we cleaned up the bar, I had staffed drinks with the staff and looked after them. Then we'd go [01:19:30] home with sunglasses on, um, and it was six days a week. Um, so it was really, really tough going. Um, as Gotti said, we've got a little bit older now. Um, so with We've chosen to do the path that we have done with the S &Ms, and we just wanted something a little bit more, um, laid down, but more relaxed. Um, as we said, we're getting older, so it's not so much pressure. Um, and now we've got the young boys, and we've got a great crew at the moment. Um, and, um, we train them up, and they're having a good time. We're more like a family, really, aren't we? Yeah. Um, but someday, someday, somebody [01:20:00] will come along and do their thing, you know. Um, but for the foreseeable future, we're just going to keep ticking away. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful note to maybe to leave us on. So, um, I just want to say a huge, huge thank you to you guys. Everything you've done, everything, all the, uh, how generous you've been sharing all your stories with us today. It's been absolutely fantastic. I've absolutely loved hearing from you both. Um, thank you so much. Everybody's coming and thank you for having me and I'll, I'll, I'll hand it over to you to do [01:20:30] the final. Oh, sorry. I always get annoyed because Gareth goes, Can I come and record? And I'm like, Oh, that means Mike's here. But yeah, also, I mean, you guys already acknowledge Gareth, but it's so cool for me for what I do for my job. Because like, it wasn't that long ago where, when I'd research stuff about our history, it does nothing, and then, all of a sudden, this guy out of nowhere starts archiving and documenting, [01:21:00] and he's got this amazing website. It's called FAVI Minority. Go on in there, please do, there's so many recordings there, yeah it's like, it's old school but it works, and um, I just think it's fantastic that we've got, you know, hopefully in the future they'll be um, he'll be able to move into like, away from monologue into stereo. Anyway, um, for those, those of you who are able to, please stand for karakia. [01:21:30] And please give Mel and Scotty and Will another warm clapping. Thank you so much. Like Mel said heaps of times today, it's really important to learn our history. Uh, yeah, to see how far we've come. But also to understand where we are currently, and hopefully, you know, we learn and [01:22:00] move forward into the future a little bit wiser and, you know, we progress a little bit more. But um, anyway, here we go. Unuhia, unuhia, unuhia ku te urutopu nui. Kia watea, kia mama. Te nākau, te tīnanga, te wairua i te aratakatu. Ko ia rā e rongo, whakairihia ake ki runga. Kia wātea, kia wātea, ae rā kua wātea. Rire, rire hau, pai mārire. Thank you everybody.
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