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So I'm 56. Um, I've been doing this job for eight years. Uh, that's the longest I've spent doing any job at all. And I guess my background as an adult has been in, um, several different fields, but mainly health, Uh, and a bit of book selling. Uh, and, uh, before that, I guess so. My university training [00:00:30] was originally in, um, maths and physics, Uh, with a smattering of other things, a bit of stage three English. Uh, I've got most of a B A in Scandinavian studies. And at post grad level, I've done, um, public health. So epidemiology and biostatistics and health, economics and so on. But you were actually born in the United Kingdom. Yeah, I was. I was born in England, and [00:01:00] I lived there till I was 13. So my family was, uh, probably, uh, I would say, upwardly mobile working class. So we lived in a semi-detached house that we rented from the council. Um, both of my parents worked two jobs. Um, and, uh, I know that their thinking this is back in 1973 was that if we stayed in England, [00:01:30] we would never be able to afford a house kind of a familiar sounding problem right now in in in New Zealand. Um, and that the opportunities for for us their kids would be would would be limited. You know, they, you know, they couldn't see how we could ever go to university, for example. So they had some friends who who had been living in New Zealand, and, uh, so [00:02:00] expressed an interest. Someone sent over a job ad for my dad, and, um, he got the job. And so we moved to Hamilton. So I did my secondary schooling in the 19 seventies in Hamilton, then on to Auckland University after that. So what was coming to New Zealand, like at the age of 13? It was it was kind of, um it was more exciting than anything else. I mean, I guess, uh I mean, I was leaving behind, [00:02:30] you know, friends and family, but actually, that didn't seem quite so important because of the the excitement, the opportunity there were. There were downsides. So my first day at school at Hamilton Boys High, I had to wear my English school uniform, um, which consisted of, you know, long trousers, shirt and tie blazer. you know, in a school that was kind of like, [00:03:00] uh, very different school uniform to that, and that attracted quite a bit of attention from other boys and I. I know that. I went home after that first day and pleaded with my mother sort of age 13. You know that we had to go into town to actually buy the school uniform. And in retrospect, I sort of look back and I cringe about it because I'm sure that that my mother spent money that that we needed [00:03:30] for furniture, food, you know, on a on a school uniform for me, which was probably actually not really at the top of the priorities. Um, but so, yeah, I mean, quite so quite a different different culture and sort of I moved into a class that was, you know, probably. So I left at the end of form two in in England and started in the final term of form four in in New Zealand. So sort of missed [00:04:00] out a bit of a chunk. So that meant that I was in a class with kids who were a bit older than me, which was probably a little bit challenging as well. So was there much homophobia at Hamilton Boys High school? Yeah, absolutely. You know, homophobia was pretty much the dominant component of the culture of the school. You know, that's so the a lot of, um homophobic, taunting, teasing, [00:04:30] bullying, you know, the if if someone wanted to insult, you know another person, it would be a homophobic slur that would that would be used. So it was a It was a pretty, um, scary environment in which to start to realise that maybe you're a bit different. Um, and certainly, you know, it's it's it's fantastic to nowadays see kids [00:05:00] coming out, you know, in in school and actually getting some support. Um, I at the time that I was at school, it would have been unthinkable for for a boy to to come out. And certainly if they had, there would have been no support whatsoever for them available in the school. So, you know, it was, you know, a very strongly homophobic environment. So when did you come out? [00:05:30] I guess I started coming out. Um uh, in terms of acknowledging to myself that I that I was gay, I would say it's It's that started in 1977. So that was the year after I left school. Um, but I guess the assumption of heterosexuality was was so strong that [00:06:00] I guess I assumed that I must be bisexual because, you know, that was kind of the available alternative. And stereotypes of of gay men were also extremely strong, very effeminate. And that that wasn't how I felt. So, like, I didn't I didn't feel like I fitted that that category. So, um yeah, so it assumed to begin with that I was bisexual. I probably went on my first [00:06:30] gay liberation March events, you know, and, uh, 1978. I think then I actually acquired a girlfriend, which was kind of also confusing. And it lasted for sort of probably about a year, 18 months. And then after that, I was probably clear in my own mind that I wasn't bisexual. I was gay. And, um and so So [00:07:00] that period from 77 through to I guess 81 was quite a confusing time of a gradual identity development for me and sort of some steps backwards. And and and then bigger strides forward. Not an uncommon story, actually Yeah, for for men of my age. Yeah, The late seventies was a time when, um, gay liberation was really heating up. Was that the kind of first political activism that you [00:07:30] had been involved in? Not quite. So I was. I was getting involved in that. Actually, it's kind of an interesting question because, I mean, I had been involved with, you know, school council and some political activism as a school student. But I was getting involved in student politics in sort of late 78 as well. But when I think about it, I can remember quite deliberately, in 1977 [00:08:00] and 78 uh, participating in a thing called, um Blue Jeans Day, which, which was part of the sort of gay lab on campus, you know? So it was sort of gay Lib week. And the idea was that, you know, if you were gay, you would wear jeans to to university and the like. It had had a built in defensive mechanism because, of course, probably most students wore jeans most days, and so [00:08:30] if it if it actually got you into a spot of bother, like if you encountered ho homophobia, well, Actually, you could just be an ordinary student wearing jeans. Um, and so there was, you know, actually quite a sophisticated mechanism. But, you know, I remember sort of wearing wearing jeans and feeling extraordinarily brave. Um, it was also a time of a lot of, uh, I guess. Hm. [00:09:00] Uh, identity, identity, politics and and conflict within the community. I remember not sure if it was the first gay march that I went on down Queen Street because I was in Auckland. Well, maybe so. I was either 78 or 79 where the the lesbian women and the gay men marched separately because there was a major disagreement in the style of the march [00:09:30] and about Well, some proportion of the men marched with masks on because they actually didn't want to be recognisable. So they wanted to be on a march, you know, actually taking that brave step, but not to be recognisable. And that was reflective of the culture of the time. It was a a very closeted and fearful culture and four marches. How did how did the kind of public on the street respond to the marches? [00:10:00] I'm not sure that I can remember accurately, Really. It's, uh, it It felt like almost that the the point of it was not so much, um, an externally facing things sort of engaging with the community as an internal act of pride or identity. Um, I mean, I think if I remember rightly, the the the response was more [00:10:30] amazement than than anything else, you know, it was, you know, it wasn't a really supportive crowd that was supporting us. It wasn't particularly a homophobic crowd. Although that was, you know, there was an element of abuse being, you know, shouted at at, um, at us, but I think it was more just incredulity, you know, because most straight people in their lives were not aware that they knew, um, any gay or lesbian person. Um, which kind [00:11:00] of was the what we had to address as we were as we were moving towards law reform because 1979 we had the Fair amendment, you know, So it's one of the first kind of campaigns for law reform that I was involved in Was was, you know, in 79 and my involvement was, you know, very much going on a demonstration or two I might have written a letter to the paper. Possibly, you know, something like that. But, um [00:11:30] uh, sort of very, very baby steps. And that Warren Freer bill fell through. Was it because of the age of consent? Yeah, it was. I mean, so So I mean, in retrospect, and I can't say that I was I was particularly, You know, I wasn't at that time involved in the leadership of our community, but, um, essentially, the community would not support, um, an attempt to change the law that had an unequal age of consent. And I believe [00:12:00] that that, you know, that was absolutely the right position to take. And I'm really proud of the the people who who did make that decision. And of course, what that meant was when we actually came to law reform with Frans Bill in in 85. Um, you know, we were strong and united on that point, you know, there. I mean, of course, there were a few voices that said, you know, we have to compromise. We should compromise on on that point. [00:12:30] Um, as the UK had done, of course. Um, but, uh, that was clearly rejected by most in the community. The early eighties also saw a lot of other, um, things being protested like apartheid. The Springbok tour in 81 Bastion Point. Were you involved in any of that? Kind of, Yeah. So the the the big occupation of Bastion Point was in 78 and I wasn't, [00:13:00] um I wasn't involved in that occupation, but the the it I mean, it started me thinking, and then we had the, um, the incident in 79 at Auckland University. And that's a group of engineering students had on an annual basis, they'd had a kind of capping week stunt where they put on grass skirts and sort of [00:13:30] sort of body painted obscenities on on their bodies. And they performed an obscene mock haka so they would invade lecture theatres and and do this performance, and that over many years, in fact, Maori had engaged with that, you know, tried to engage with them to actually say, um, you you probably don't realise it. You probably think this is just good fun. But actually, uh, what you're doing is really very highly offensive [00:14:00] to us, and and we respectfully request that you stop doing that you know. So it had been that nature of engagement, and nothing had happened. Um, and in 79 a group of group of young Maori people, uh, essentially went to the engineering school where the students who were practising their performance and confronted them. There was a bit of, um, you know, it was a physical confrontation. [00:14:30] Um, and that led to the arrest of the Maori, of course. And the arrest of the of the engineering students. Um, and that led to, like, a really, um, profound experience, uh, spending I spent probably the day a full day of a forum in the university quad where literally for the whole day, thousands of students were held spellbound [00:15:00] by a debate. A debate around, um, Aro around what had happened, you know, And, uh and was it just good fun or or was there some cross cultural obligation that that had to to Maori and was violence OK, um, was it a reasonable response, you know, to the you know, the cultural violence that had been done so [00:15:30] actually a really important debate, and certainly for me that that that day changed many of my attitudes and I moved from being someone who was initially initially My political alignment was as a young national, um, which a lot of people might be surprised about nowadays. Um, And so, uh, the that that day, [00:16:00] I think, probably was the seminal moment in changing my views and actually making me think more deeply about What does liberty mean? You know, and, um, this the the whole question of balancing liberty and, um, equity. And, um, you know, from that day on, I sort of sort of changed a lot of the ways that I went about my work and so involved in student politics. I was I was the president of the Students Association [00:16:30] in 1980 1980 sort of late 1980. And in 1981 I was very heavily involved in the anti apartheid movement. Um, so I was one of probably about 15 or 20 people who were, uh, involved in late 1980 in the in planning the anti apartheid, uh, demonstrations and strategy in Auckland, um, and then went on [00:17:00] through through the course of 1981 failing all of the courses I'd enrolled in, Um, because I was, you know, 100% committed to to the movement. And, um, towards the end of that, you know, we got, uh, the the involved with the anti movement really got challenged by the Maori who had been involved saying, Well, it's really cool that you're involved in this campaign against racism in South Africa, but I don't know if you know, but actually, [00:17:30] many of these same issues, you know, apply here as well, you know, they're not called Bantu stands, but come out to visit, you know, and, um and see, you know, people who are, you know, effectively, completely ghettoised, um, living in poverty. Um, and the Soweto, uh, protest and massacre was sparked by black South African school kids not being able to speak their own language in school. [00:18:00] Well, you know, have a look at the status of Maori language in this country and what's happening in our schools. So I mean, I tried to take that on board, and so certainly those next few years I started, uh, work in the book trade, but also kind of continuing my engagement. Um, really, on particular issues of racism, Um, and of course, leading into sort of 1980 [00:18:30] um 80 85 I guess, uh, I the the the the flat that I I lived in. And all of the people I associated with with were all heavily involved with homosexual law reform. Um, and the anti apartheid movement and, um, anti-racism issues here in So So we were active across a broad range [00:19:00] of issues at one point, I, I kind of suggested, since we were going along to all of these demonstrations, and actually, regardless of what the issue was, it seemed to be more or less the same group of people there. We should just rather than have multiple organisations just rename ourselves the Alliance for Justice. And, um uh, yeah. I mean, uh, it felt it felt great to be part of [00:19:30] a movement that believed in fundamental change to the the way that we love Where do you think that energy comes to fight injustice for many people? They don't You know that that they just don't have the energy to fight. So where does it come for you? Oh, yeah, I don't know I. I mean, I really I really, um I mean I I know that [00:20:00] that for me, I mean, the I mean, years ago I heard a kind of a version of what I what I know is actually thousands of years old and and actually originated with some rabbi, actually, that you know, if if not me, then who and if if not now, then when? And for me, that really is kind of an organising principle for me. So if I if I see an injustice, I, I don't know, [00:20:30] I don't know how it's possible to be content knowing that, um, others are living in unjust circumstances because, uh, the the the the source of the containment is typically not something that you've done yourself. It's actually largely the product of circumstances, the lottery of life over which you have no control. Um and so the corollary [00:21:00] of that is that that's the same for the person who's who's living the the the non privileged life. Um and so it just It just seems to me kind of obvious that that you know that those who are advantaged should be working to ensure that that everyone enjoys those same opportunities and the you know, and there's obviously in in the work that I do for the green party and over many years and the work [00:21:30] that I will be doing in Forest and Bird, there's there's, uh, an allied or parallel voice around the environment, too. You know that, Um, the you know, it feels like I have an obligation to ensure that the the environment is protected. You know, I don't know where that comes from, either. So so do you see things like, say, the homosexual law reform, [00:22:00] anti racism, anti apartheid? Are they all part of a larger struggle? Or do you see those as separate separate entities? I? I do see them as part of a larger struggle, which is a struggle for justice. I mean, so my my belief is that we should have a sustainable relationship with the Nat with the natural world that we should [00:22:30] have a fair society in which resources and opportunities are fairly shared and that we should have an economy that is engineered to deliver on both of those things. So, so much of I mean, so much of what I've worked on actually fits with that as a kind of an organising principle. Um I mean, I think within that of course you I mean you carve off individual things [00:23:00] as campaigns to work on at a particular time. And, um, I have to say that what I've done over the years is worked on particular themes, particular issues and then had a break from them and worked on other things very occasionally. Had a had a break on, worked on nothing. But it doesn't last for long because, you know, I see something that I think, you know, I could add value to that campaign. You know, I could I could make that more successful. [00:23:30] Um, and so II I can't be content doing nothing. So, going back to the mid eighties, what was your involvement with homosexual law reform? Uh, very largely, um, going on the demonstration. So there were, You know, we had demonstrations. My memory is pretty much weekly. You know, I remember, um, [00:24:00] picking an assembly of God, um, church that was going to have the Reverend Lou Sheldon visit to preach his torrent of hate. We and we took over the church, actually, and sort of took over the stage and occupied it for a while, and then couldn't think what else to do. So I left. Uh, I had, um and we you know, we had things outside the Salvation Army, and we would sort of we pick up some of the the [00:24:30] signature collecting for the for the hate petition. Um, I put in, you know, submissions in support of the bill. Um, my partner and I were both signatories to the big, um, herald ad that that was you know, we gay men and lesbians sort of demand that the that the bill go through. I forget the wording now, but something like that, um, I was I. I sort of formed [00:25:00] a group called the Anti Bigot Committee that, um we kind of we we it was a small group, and we did, um, individual actions. So actually, in in thin end of the wedge that that, um, that you curd one of the clips as an interview. Where? Where? Peter Wall, You know, great guy was, um, debating on TV N against, um Richard Flynn and Richard Flynn in the [00:25:30] clip. Sounds kind of, um, homophobic, but but not extreme, but actually in other contexts. He actually said that, um that the old testament is literally true and that gay men should be put to death. And so we went and picketed his church and, um, you know, so so basically, I mean, I mean, a lot of those. A lot of a lot of those actions were [00:26:00] not strategic, but they were more about an A an assertion, you know, a really emphatic assertion that we would not put up with that hatred any longer. Um, and coupled with the with the extremely active campaign to get people to come out, you know, in their workplaces and to their families. You know, I I'm really proud of of what we did. So again, I wasn't at that point in the leadership of that campaign. [00:26:30] I was involved in the leadership of the anti apartheid campaign that was successful, in fact, in 85 and stopping the All Blacks going to South Africa. Um, but, uh was kind of a foot soldier. That sort of got involved in all of the activities, but under someone else's leadership. And then, at the same time, we've also got the emergence of AIDS in in New Zealand. Um, when did you first become aware of AIDS? [00:27:00] I guess it's hard to know. I mean I, I would have. I think I probably I mean, I must have read whatever was in out and pink triangle, you know, which were our newspapers, newspaper magazines at the time. Um, I remember the first thing that I did was, um the I think the AIDS Support network had been in Auckland had been [00:27:30] and saying, Well, we need to We're gonna need to have a hospice. Um, and, uh, they had earmarked a building in Grafton that would have worked. And I think the I think the building was maybe owned by Auckland City Council at the time, and some of the graft and shopkeepers had said, Well, no, we don't want that kind of thing in our in our area. And, um, I lived in Grafton at the time, and so I [00:28:00] organised a sort of leaflet drop to to every household, basically organising a sort of community led response to the shopkeepers, saying, actually, don't don't speak for us, you know, we you know, the the, um this hospice would be welcome, you know, in in our neighbourhood. So that was actually the first thing that I did. And then in 19 88 so I've been working for. [00:28:30] So after I after I finished with, um, Homosexual Law Reform and and stopping the 85 Tour, I sort of went back into the book trade and worked for Polynesian Bookshop for a while. And then in 88 the AIDS Foundation contacted me and said, Well, they were looking for a gay man with political skills and organising skills to work on the human rights campaign. Because as part of of, [00:29:00] um of the the deal struck in 86 to get part one of homosexual law reform through with an equal age of consent, the necessary compromise had been to ditch Part two, which had been the anti discrimination legislation. And so the AIDS Foundation wanted me to come and work on a campaign to actually get that back, get that through into into law. So that's what I did for five years, and the [00:29:30] anti discrimination campaign was all about. I mean, at the time in the eighties, you could get discriminated by in terms of your employment or accommodation, or it's it's interesting when I talk to an audience of of young people nowadays and try to try to explain the that environment in in the 19 eighties, Um, and and and so why? Homosexual law reform was so important, but also, you know, explaining that environment where it was [00:30:00] completely legal, You know, for you to lose your job or your or not get a job or be denied goods and services, you know, show up at a motel with your partner and not be allowed to rent a room. You know, um or to be kicked out of your house. You know, the all of all of those sort of day to day practical consequences that people actually experienced, you know? So we did a big survey of people's experience and gathered a whole lot of stories of [00:30:30] people actually experiencing employment or accommodation or health care discrimination. Just illustrating why, you know, the the corrosive power of discrimination in our lives. So it was 1993 when the Human Rights Act came into force. That seems quite a long time. If you started in 1988 I mean, that's that's quite a long road, isn't it? And what I'd say I think is so in 88 [00:31:00] we thought it was going to be straightforward because we had a labour government at the time, and Labour was saying Yes. Yes, of course, we're gonna do it. Um uh, but they didn't, you know. And, um, and kept on putting it off. And I, I guess, Uh, I mean, people who think back on that time it was a pretty turbulent time for the for the labour government. They went through three prime ministers in that period from, um, [00:31:30] from from, uh, from, you know, and in in that 87 to 90 a parliamentary term. So David Long, he stepped down and Jeffrey Palmer took over, and then he stepped down, and Mike Moore took over, and, you know, and, um so we were fortunate that, um, at the at the very 11th hour. So probably 11, 45. Something like that. Um, [00:32:00] that, uh, Labour did introduce a bill to add grounds to the Human Rights Act Human Rights Commission Act as it was then because I think if they had not left government with that with with a bill actually on on the table, um, it's hard to imagine National having introduced it, at least in its first term as it was, uh, they, you know, national did inherit [00:32:30] a bill that was on the table, and, uh, and we were able to work with, uh, particularly the the national health team. So Simon Upton, who was health minister, and Catherine O'Regan who, of course, who in whose name the, um, the crucial bit of the legislation stood. And I think Morris Williamson, I think, was the other was the other, um, associate Health minister. And they, you know, they all supported [00:33:00] the the legislation and understood the health argument that we made, you know, to say that actually, discrimination and prejudice if you allow it to stand we create an environment where men who have sex with men will still be hiding will still be inaccessible to HIV prevention messages, um, and will and will have the low self esteem that goes with that hiding. Um, that we know is associated with being unable [00:33:30] to manage safe sex. So, um, you know, to their credit, you know that the health team from National understood the argument, and we were able to work closely with them to secure the numbers. In 1998 you became the executive director for the AIDS Foundation, and I'm just wondering, can you paint a picture of what I, I guess of the path of HIV aids in New Zealand from 1998 when you started at the foundation through to the [00:34:00] mid nineties, when the the the new drugs came in through to when you left the foundation in 2003, where you had things like the Internet was coming on stream. Social media? Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's extraordinary extraordinary change. Really. So, um, so listeners who remember the late eighties early nineties will remember it as a time where we had, um, kind of steadily increasing numbers [00:34:30] of of men. Um, testing positive, um, being diagnosed with AIDS and funerals, you know, funerals all the time, you know, And, um, you know, I you know, I I I still have a really, really high bar to going to funerals. You know, I'm just funeral out in my life. Um and, uh and I think that's probably something that [00:35:00] I mean most. Most New Zealanders have no conception of that, that we experienced AAA period of time. That was probably it's only it's only parallel would be war time. You know that that actually you know, significant numbers of our friends were dying around us at a young age. Um, And [00:35:30] for those of us, um, who weren't, you know, very often we're in the position that I was of of saying, Well, you know, I was lucky, you know? And so all of that survivor guilt that went with that, too. And, of course, at that time, we had no treatments at all or no effective treatments. Right towards the the end of my time at the AIDS Foundation, we were starting to use a ZT. But a ZT was being used, [00:36:00] actually, in a way that, um you know, really, it was a lottery as to whether it made your condition better or worse, Um, that the, you know, very highly, highly toxic drug, at least in the doses that it was being used. And and then when I came back to the foundation, um and, uh, so So I left the foundation in 93 after we'd secured, um, and the anti discrimination law came back in [00:36:30] 98 where actually, a whole lot of drugs, you know, had had started to become available, and they were having a sort of a life changing effect. Um, on men who men with HIV and sort of, you know, I had this experience of friends of mine who, um, had been to death's door literally on multiple occasions who were now living [00:37:00] well, and, um, and, you know, and a and a few who apparently had exactly the same circumstances who didn't make it, you know, um, and, um you know, so So it was a bittersweet time of of thinking If only Matt White. You know, my friend Matt White could have hung on just a little longer. You know, Maybe he'd still be with us. Um, but [00:37:30] at the same time celebrating, you know, other friends who did make it. And a lot of I guess the the the the real contrast in the time, you know, from in that second stint that I had at the foundation the, you know, much more advocacy around treatments. Um, a lot of a lot of my time was spent with pharmac and, you know, making the case for for new treatments for combination therapies. Um, [00:38:00] and, uh, with with some significant success, uh, and I would say a more sophisticated prevention campaign that actually was clearer that what we were doing was health promotion for gay men. Um, or gay and bisexual men. Um, and so we during that [00:38:30] time ran anti homophobia campaigns, you know that that on the surface had no relationship to to HIV, but we knew were actually strongly tied in to, um what was necessary to actually, um, to be able to prevent further transmission of HIV. Um, so much to much greater degree of sophistication and the work that we did, Uh, a real, um, [00:39:00] emergence of the importance of working specifically with Maori, Um, and beginning of something similar around Pacifica men. Um, yeah. And so so an incredible time. Really. I. I enjoyed that enormously. So you left the AIDS foundation in 2003 and then moved into being the chief executive of the West Coast District [00:39:30] Health Board. Yeah. So, uh, I mean, while I was at the at the AIDS Foundation. Actually, in the years in between my two AIDS foundation stunts, um, I had got increasingly involved in the health sector. So, um, So I had, um, worked for a regional health authority. I sort of run sort of [00:40:00] a a health consulting business of my own. Um, and, uh, And during that second stint with the AIDS Foundation, I had done a secondment to the Ministry of Health to right the New Zealand Public Health strategy. I'd become the chair of the New Zealand Public Health Advisory Committee. Um, I'd been a member of the National Health Committee. So so increasingly [00:40:30] involved in lots and lots and lots of the wider health sector leadership in in in this country. And, um, and at the same time, my So a lot of people assume that that that my partner and I moved to the West Coast from Waiheke Island, where we lived at the time, Um, as a means of of getting the chief executive role in in a district health board and sort of like we took the wooden spoon of the West [00:41:00] Coast. Actually, it was the other way around that we, um Ian and I, uh, we like our main leisure activity had been cycle touring. Um, and, uh, we were we. So every year we'd go on a big boat tour, and we always build in the West Coast and, uh, where Ian's dad originally came from. And so we had some sort of family links there. Um, but that wasn't the [00:41:30] the attraction. The attraction was the natural environment, in fact, and so as we were feeling that, uh, Auckland was starting to absorb Waiheke, um and it was probably wouldn't be long before it was a place that we didn't recognise ourselves. We were sort of casting our minds around about where we could move to that, Um, that wouldn't happen to and, um, and the West Coast came to mind, [00:42:00] you know, somewhere that we loved spending time and and so So we were looking for ways of being able to move to the West Coast. And then this job came up, and it seemed it seemed natural. What did you enjoy most about that time on the West Coast? Well, because I still live on the West Coast. Um, I you know, I there there was There were some specific health sector challenges that I liked. So, [00:42:30] um, the West Coast is the smallest of the DH PS. It's also the most smallest in terms of number of people and budget, but the the largest at the time. Anyway, in terms of geographic area, so everyone's very widely dispersed. And so what that meant was that the natural tendency that people have to think of health services and health in terms of hospitals and bricks and water [00:43:00] It seemed to me that that was gonna be less important on the West Coast, and people would understand that what was more important would be keeping people well in the communities that they were living in. And, um and and services that were that were provided in their communities. And so it proved. So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the the challenge of innovation, trying to turn an organisation around to [00:43:30] think of itself as a centre of excellence for rural health services. Um, and it started doing things in a really innovative way. And so I'm really proud of of that that record. So what, then drew you to Parliament? Well, I think that I mean, the really the biggest thing was, uh, was climate change. So I mean is obviously I have been watching [00:44:00] the development of the Green Party and and a number of the people who were involved in the Green Party I think of you know, Russell Norman Sue Bradford. Keith Locke. You know, they they They were people that I'd known for many years, and I had been had worked on, um, various political issues over the years on, and so they were the natural fit for me. And I know I've been voting green for a while, and [00:44:30] I've been thinking, um, prior to the 2005 election, actually, you know, actually, I've probably got the skill set that actually could make a difference in parliament. And I actually had been approached by both labour and national to to become a candidate. And I thought, actually, you know, the Green Party is the party for me And, um so probably, I think, in 2000 and [00:45:00] six, I think for the first time, I first started chatting with Russell and saying, you know, I, I am sort of interested in becoming more involved. I'm desperately worried about the urgency of climate change and the lack of urgency and the political response to climate change. Um, in my original degree, the physics, atmospheric and oceanic physics. You know, this [00:45:30] is the physics of climate change, Um, and my sort of political and organising skills in the years subsequent. You know, I felt like I could make a contribution. And so from that point I started working towards being available to be a candidate in 2008, so I mean, it really was. Here's a place where I think I can make a difference. And is it what you expected? It is. [00:46:00] In many ways, I mean, I think, and of course, I was hoping that we would be in government and and And so my my scenario is all involved, uh, being being in in government and able to make change, and so it hasn't worked out like that. But the, um the kind of politics that I hoped to be able to deliver, which was a more collaborative style of politics than, [00:46:30] um Then, uh, I guess the public generally sees I have mostly been able to deliver on. So I have made a point of every day trying to think of something that's a little bit better because because I was there and, um uh, generally, you know, that's you know, I've I've been able to to achieve that, um, and have been able to work actually with members from right across [00:47:00] across the the the parliament to achieve things. I mean, I guess marriage equality is an example of that, um where I. I provided a lot of the back room strategy and coordination to make the parliamentary process work and a lot of the community liaison that was also important in that in that bill. And, um loved working with Lewis, of course. But you know, MP S from other parties [00:47:30] as well. So could you compare, say, marriage equality in the campaign for that with civil unions which happened in Was it 2004? Yeah. I mean, civil unions. And it's interesting because I, you know, having been involved in homosexual law reform and anti discrimination legislation and later on, you know, other campaigns campaign, culminating in marriage equality. I I never really got involved with civil unions, and and [00:48:00] I mean, partly that was my life circumstances at the time. And I was sort of busy busy making the transition to my West Coast role. But it was also I didn't really believe in the goal, you know, I, I I end up being in a a conversation with, um with several community leaders. Uh, probably probably, I think, 2000 late 2002, maybe. Maybe [00:48:30] early 2003, where we started talking through the strategic options. And to me, it always struck me that what we should be aiming for was marriage. Um, and a bit like, equal age of consent. I didn't think we should be, um, going and seeking a compromise option. So? So II I never got that enthused. Now, having said that, I think I was [00:49:00] probably wrong. You know, I think that we were able to achieve marriage equality at least in part because we had because we had achieved civil unions. So I think that Tim was right and I was wrong. And do you think that marriage equality would have happened in in the mid two thousands if you had gone straight for marriage? Equality? No, Definitely not. So I think it would have been a a long, [00:49:30] drawn out campaign. Um, and and in contrast, the campaign that we that we ran actually was It may have seemed long to to to some in the community, but actually that was crisp. You know that that we we we moved that from putting a bill into the ballot to having the third reading pass. Um, as quickly as it is possible [00:50:00] to move a member's bill through, um and, uh, and that was, despite having at that time a record number of public submissions and that it all happened through the goodwill and collaboration of MP S from from pretty, well, all parties across the house. Um and, um, yeah, I'm I'm really proud of that piece of work, and and And for me, I mean, as as a political strategy [00:50:30] wonk, I suppose the the what? What I what I especially loved about that from a process point of view, was was that, yeah, I was able to use stuff that I learned from lots and lots of of other campaigns over the years. And so we started out with our objective, and we work backwards from there, you know? Who are these votes that we need? How will we get them? [00:51:00] You know what will what will the things be that persuade them? What influences will they have on them from from, uh, the opposition that we need to find effective counters to who will be the most effective people to talk to them. Um what what's the, you know, public perception that we need to create, you know? So So a whole lot of a whole lot of learning went into that campaign, and, [00:51:30] you know, that's part of what led to its success. So why do you think marriage equality is important? Because, I mean, I've heard voices. I heard voices at the time of the legislation going through and subsequently saying that, um, there are bigger issues to be dealt with things like, you know, um, trans rights, poverty, homelessness. Well, the and I think there are. There are There are several issues at play here. So one [00:52:00] is, um I think that equal legal status is the big project that that, um, that I have been working on over so many years. Um, and this was the big missing bit. Um, and, uh, equal legal status is fundamental to creating a full sense of belonging. [00:52:30] Um, and that full sense of belonging, in turn, has impacts on important end points like HIV transmission, like suicide, like other mental health effects. Um, so that by creating that full sense of belonging, we, um we we are altering the environment that surrounds gay and bisexual [00:53:00] men, Um, to make it more likely that they will have good outcomes and less likely that they'll have bad outcomes. And that's fundamentally something that's really important to achieve. So first of all, you know, I, I don't accept that. It's not an important thing, I. I believe it's it was a very important thing to accomplish. Um, I'm not saying that it was more important than Trans rights, but the [00:53:30] other aspect of this is that politics is in many ways the art of the possible and, um, why that's important. I mean it. It crops up in two ways. One is that, um, achieving trans rights will now be more possible. Um, because of marriage, equality and a whole lot of transgender people actually got that and were heavily involved. [00:54:00] In fact, in the in the Campaign for marriage equality, um, and and also we had the opportunity to pursue marriage equality. We didn't have it on trans rights. So, um, the out of the possible means you take the opportunity that's there in front of you. And so actually the the the the opportunity was created by Barack Obama. Barack [00:54:30] Obama said, um uh, that he would he would probably vote for for marriage, Equality, gay marriage, of course, In the US context, Um, if he you know, if it if it cropped up, Um And that led to John Key being asked the question of where he stood. And because John Key has been, um, desperate to be Barack Obama's bestie, Um, he [00:55:00] you know, he had to say yes, but then he said, But I don't detect a clamour for it. So well, that was right there and then the opportunity. And so several of us set about creating a clamour. Um, and er it sort of went from there Another, uh, piece of legislation that that really kind of rings in my head is the abolishment of the provocation defence, the gay panic defence. [00:55:30] And I think, was it 2008? Um, yeah, it was certainly one of the very first pieces of legislation that that, um I became passionate about and actually probably was 2009 by the time it came through. But, um, I had a very early conversation with Chris, actually, and, um uh and sort of flagged that as something that would be worth doing. And, um, he accepted the case [00:56:00] for it. And, you know, it was a government bill that came through. But I was, um, extremely proud to kind of be part of of making that legislation, um, possible. Um, in my first reading speech on that bill, I began the speech, actually, with a A list, a list of the men who had been killed, um murdered [00:56:30] and their murderers, um, acquitted of murder, sometimes in some cases, acquitted of all charges. Um, because of the gay panic defence, you know that they they said Well, essentially, I had a AAA moment of of loss, of control, of my impulses because of the because of being unnerved by, [00:57:00] um, a homosexual advance. And so, actually, wiping that from the statute books, um, is something I'm very proud to have been part of. Where did that defence come from? Oh, actually, I don't know where it originally came from, but I mean, you can see that that the idea that was inherent in the defence, um, is that there's something so [00:57:30] inherently shocking about about gay men. Um, that we represent, uh, a disruption to the natural order of things, um, that it could justify killing another person. Um, and that, you know, that's, um I guess you know. So So, in some sense, it's it's origin is in the the climate of homophobia that has persisted for generations [00:58:00] centuries. Was there any opposition to its removal? There was, um and actually, when New Zealand first was not in parliament at the time, um, they have opposed every other piece of piece of legislation I can think of. But the, um uh, the act party who I think at the time had had four or five votes, voted against the bill and [00:58:30] they voted against the bill because the, um actually, not because of the gay panic aspect of it, but because the provocation defence more broadly was sometimes used by, um, women who had been exposed to, um, violent relationships, um, responding by killing their male partner. Um, [00:59:00] and so David Garrett, who spoke on behalf of the act party on on this issue, opposed the bill on that basis. Um, and I did make a point, actually, in one of my speeches of saying that, um uh, that while I, uh, didn't agree with the logic that had used, you know, I. I understood that that they were not opposing the bill for homophobic reasons and that you know that they [00:59:30] their position had been reached in good faith. What do you think? The significance of the removal of that defence has been, as with all of these legislative, um, uh, legislative steps and and also, um, not only the legislative slips, but other, uh, acts by the by government and by parliament. [01:00:00] See, the the main impact is not so much in the change itself. Um, but in its, uh, its signalling effect, um, to the gay community and and to the wider community about the the status, Um, of, uh, of gay men. So I believe that the existence of that, um, that defence [01:00:30] signalled to gay men and, um, and and to the wider community that we were an unnatural part of of New Zealand society, Probably not part of New Zealand society. Um, that, um that, uh, that we had no right to make any kind of sexual advance on on a another adult person. [01:01:00] Um, in the same way that a heterosexual person would consider to be an absolutely ordinary um, part of behaviour. So I think the the the main effect of the repeal will have been to change that signal to, um, to send a signal instead that that we are entitled to the full rights [01:01:30] of citizenship, um, and membership of society and that we are as much a part of the natural order as any heterosexual person is. But it's, you know, it's not just legislation, you know. One of the things that I really tackled head on was, you know, John Key, John Key's gay red shirt remark. You know, for example, you know, he was doing one of his, you know, falling around with commercial radio breakfast hosts, [01:02:00] and, um, and said on air, Well, that's a gay red shirt that you're wearing today, you know, And, um uh, and, you know, probably thought nothing of it, whereas for what? What immediately sprung into my mind was the effect on every young gay person who hears probably 20 or 30 times a day, or certainly at that time in their school [01:02:30] or the or the wider community that's so gay, you know, or like so gay being used as a term of, um discussed or, uh, diminishment. Um, and, um, and the the equivalent of, um when I when I was a kid, you know, the the and, um and so the pro for the prime minister To use that as a put down, [01:03:00] um, actually just reinforced that, um, that effect of of that signal. And so, uh, you know, I did what I could to to publicise and counter that you mentioned the word homophobia before, and I wondered, have you experienced homophobia in parliament? You know, I really haven't, um, and, um, die, which [01:03:30] which is fantastic. And it kind of, uh so even those MPs who, for example, voted against marriage equality that were were not homophobic towards me. There was not. There was no personal homophobia associated with their position. I mean, I believe that their their stance reflects almost an institutional homophobia, um, or religious homophobia in, as it was in most cases of those [01:04:00] who voted against. But, um, no, I mean everyone from the weird guy who has been, actually, uh, kind of respectful and supportive. I guess it probably reflects something about my wider observations about homophobia that, um I believe and of course, for the for the man who's in the closet. This is hard to believe, but I believe that, [01:04:30] um, homophobia expressed in a personal way. Um, so a targeted personal way is usually a response to, um, someone not having a strong gay identity themselves. And there are exceptions to that, of course. You know, we probably all know someone who's been beaten up or abused, Uh, and they're the the most positive out person you [01:05:00] could think of. But But in my experience, people respond. Most people respond positively to a strong, strong personal identity that that that a person has. So, you know, the When we moved to the West Coast, a lot of people assumed that we were sort of moving to the sort of backwater of sort of redneck homophobia. And then it would be absolutely awful. [01:05:30] That has not been our experience at all. So we've been, of course, out completely out since the day we arrived on the West Coast and have experienced not one incident of homophobia in the time that we've been there. And, you know, I believe that that's a that's a response to to our to our own strong, strong sense positive self identity, whereas the person who's kind of out kind of in the closet, [01:06:00] you know, actually hiding themselves, actually that that that that that position neither neither in nor out, um creates points of weakness that others, um, who have some malign purpose will exploit. But do you think there's a glass ceiling or a pink ceiling in Parliament that stops [01:06:30] a rainbow person either being a party leader or, for instance, becoming Prime Minister? Yeah, that's an interesting question, I. I mean, I, I think, um, so many people will be aware that last year I, um, sought the male co-leader of the Green Party and you know, Grant Grant Robertson, you know, did did the same thing for the for the Labour Party. And, [01:07:00] um, neither of us was successful. The no doubt those who didn't support us had multiple. You know, the the there was a a multiplicity of reasons I do know, Um, because I I encountered it in a very, very small number of cases, as I was sort of working through the the the Green Party that there were people who we're not expressing [01:07:30] a sort of a, um a personal homophobia or they wouldn't have identified as such. They probably thought of themselves as liberal minded and and, um, and supportive, but were kind of saying, but what what ordinary voters think, you know. And so so you know, I, I don't believe you know. So I do know that that was a factor for for For was a very small number of our [01:08:00] members. I don't think that was the reason that I was unsuccessful. Um, I'd be very, very disappointed if that were the case, and obviously, I don't know. I don't know about the Labour Party and sort of what stood behind. Sort of Grant not making it. Um, but, uh, you know, so there clearly is still a factor, but, um, just how strong it is, I'm not sure. And maybe it's It's, um, one of those things where [01:08:30] kind of everyone's making assumptions about everyone else, as opposed to anything that's real. Um I mean, no doubt. Um, and, uh, in a conservative party, you know that should you know, that would be a much more of a of of a real effect? Um, but I think Yeah, certainly in in our party, it's it's It's a very small, small thing indeed. Do you have any regrets about [01:09:00] your time in parliament in terms of, um, legislation that may not have got through or things that you were you were having to leave behind? I guess there's I mean, there are I mean, yes. Yes, there are. There are. There are regrets. There are, um, so, so for, um, for the rainbow community. I mean, the communities there are, there's a couple of projects that I've I've had on the go that, um, that that I'll be leaving unfinished, [01:09:30] um, ones around health rights for trans and intersex people, for example. You know, I sort of have fought on the health Select committee to try and get some progress. I believe there will be some progress. I think that there'll be some more money for, um, for surgeries. Um, not enough. And and not enough movement in the non surgical aspects of of trans health care. You know, that basically [01:10:00] being treated like human beings by health services as a reasonable as some, you know, expectation of every service interaction is one of the things I've been seeking without success. Um, I guess the, um the the other. The other big projects that I've been working on, um, it will start again in a moment. So the other big projects that I've been working on that are are are not finished. [01:10:30] One is, um, to make schools safer. I've I've sort of led a stream of work to actually say, How can we make um Society a safer place for our young people? Because one of my messages is, you know, as an adult gay man, things are immeasurably better for for me than they would have been in the 19 seventies. But for the 14 year old Kevin, now, actually, is it really that different? [01:11:00] You know, because still, you know, you may be in a school where there's, you know, no support. You may know of no other gay people. There are no role models around. Um and so so I've you know, been really pursuing that. And the way we're trying to get progress is to try and get the education Review office in its reviews of every school's obligation to create a safe environment for all students [01:11:30] to, um, as a mandatory component to be looking at the safety of LGBTI students um, because we did some work that showed that, um, in fact, most secondary schools are not safe places and that the education review office never picks that up. So we're very hopeful of getting some progress on that now, um, and I'm gonna have to leave it, so leave it to others to complete that work. And, [01:12:00] of course, the the petition That's just come to Parliament for a, um for a for an apology. And, um, and a reversal of convictions. You know, that's the other piece that I'm gonna need to leave behind. So that's the, uh, that's the, uh, dinner bell marking the end of of dinner time here in in Parliament. Um, and I'm just wondering to, um, to to wrap up the interview is how do you want to be remembered for your time in parliament? [01:12:30] Well, I guess, uh, I, I hope that our communities will think of me as having been, um, a brave and effective advocate. Um, who has done my best? Um, for for our wider communities and I, I hope more generally that, um, others will see me [01:13:00] as a person of integrity. Um, who has not been afraid to hold the government to account, but who's also been prepared to, uh, to work across party lines to achieve effective change.
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