[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride nz.com.
[00:00:05] Julie fought and some archival material for us to have a look at. And one of them is called, it's a little journal, it's called out front these BM political activity and out here on 1962 to 1985. And it's by you, can you just tell us a little bit about
[00:00:24] what is what that booklet was about. It's one wanted to put this together, because I knew there was a lot of material around, but not accessible, not visible and not allowed to be visible as well. And I was a bit worried, you know, that we would lose elements of their histories, and how we operated here in this country is lesbians. And so I decided to try and document as best I could, what I knew about so I put this booklet together as a historical resource for our communities.
[00:00:59] And we energy, where did you put it together?
[00:01:02] I actually published it, I think in about 1993. So it took a couple of years to pull together the information. And quite a number of these beings contributed and help me with material and information and things, events that they had been involved in. I wanted to cover lesbians and the feminist movement, lesbians and the gay liberation movement. These mean, feminist activity publications, or meeting places have tried to document clubs that people knew about, and so on. So our hope is that this starting point for a whole lot of I hope it expands, and, you know, leads people to do lots more research, because there's a whole mine of information here. And stuff we can learn from,
[00:01:52] if people wanted to get hold of the journal now, where would they find it?
[00:01:56] They'll find it in libraries. And I've got some copies Lyft so I can make make those copies available to people. If they can contact me, it Julie g at pill co.nz. And
[00:02:12] when you when you put it out? Did you get a great response to it?
[00:02:16] Yeah, I did. People were very pleased. One woman said, Thank you, you've given me my history back because she had left New Zealand and had been away, you know, like you said, you had for a bit. She had been away for about 20 years and must, you know, was not here during all of the events that have happened. And, and she liked the pictures. At the time I published this self published it. So it was limited, limited funds. So black and white pictures, but nevertheless, the idea, and she found it great to see the images in to read about the events. So there was a I was pleased with people's response to it.
[00:02:56] And gathering the information for it. Did you just put up with it call out to people?
[00:03:01] Yeah, I asked people and also I had newspapers, I had two volumes of socialist action newspapers, and they were good with the main news. Newspapers at the time, wouldn't even print the word lesbian or wouldn't even use the word homosexual. And you couldn't put an ad on with with least the internet. socialist action. Reporters, reported lots of protest events and had pictures and so on. So that was a great source for 1970s. information.
[00:03:34] What would be some of the highlights and the journal?
[00:03:39] Well, I think the whole thing is a highlight to me. I especially liked putting in the the Gay Liberation Front, the Oakland Gay Liberation Front manifesto from May 1972. And when I read it now, I still think Yeah, that's right. You know, because it ends with do not intend to ask for anything, we intend to stay in film in the car basic, right. So not, you know, going around and trying to get people to give us something which is else as of right, anyway. But demand intake and what is rightfully ours in in, you know, to assume that we are okay, people. So I think there's quite good I think the highlight, or the highlight would be just having it finished in giving it to people in making it available and having the such a good response at the time.
[00:04:34] And who's on the cover. On
[00:04:36] the cover is a picture of Amy Bock actually. And this was from this was made available to me by Fiona Clark, the photographer, and she had come across a collection of photographs and it caught a lot of photographs of Amy Balkan here. The people around here and turn lucky. And here not I think hit MIT. And one of the people who was with Amy Bach, and she was in a home and she had a whole collection of photographs and allowed Fiona to have access to them. In PR allowed me to reproduce this.
[00:05:21] tell tell us why Amy's significant,
[00:05:25] because Amy Bach is famous in New Zealand. General history is the woman who married another woman. But she posed as a mean in so there's a lot of dispute around how do you view Amy Bach? Was she a fraudster? Was she at least being Was she a transgender? Or, you know, there's a lot of debate and discussion around me. But she was famous in the early 1900s for marrying another woman when she was found out and she had a bit of a criminal history beyond that. So and she was really to. She's referred to and in many newspapers, you know, after those events is a is a criminal and fraudster and so on. And I was interested also in here from another angle, because I was researching another woman who priests and pastors I mean, and when they discussed the later woman's case, they refused to at Box quite a bit.
[00:06:25] You've chosen a timeframe 1962 to 1985. What was that timeframe?
[00:06:32] official? Because 85 I chose because it was just around the time of homosexual law reform. And I kind of was doing the work just after that. And I thought in 62 was where I kind of started really, in, in the kind of arbitrary, the 1995 is convenient, because it was too much to go forward. So I just thought, okay, just kind of restricted to this timeframe. And, you know, because you can go on, and I just wanted to get something out. And 62 I would not put that now I would think let's extend, let's bring in more of prize night 60. But that's what I knew at the time. So yeah, it was just convenient mechanism to limit the scope of the week. That's all right.
[00:07:24] And you haven't done
[00:07:27] any particularly date or second edition of a different period.
[00:07:32] No, I went on to some other things.
[00:07:35] But I am thinking about a new project. So nice.
[00:07:40] NGO foot and some other bits and pieces to one is a Philly fantastic looking photo that is from the Dominion newspaper archives. And it's, it looks like a gathering of people in a hole. And I think it looks like you might be doing a political snog. Can you can you explain to us what's what's going on this photo?
[00:08:04] Well, any snog is always personal, as well as political. The
[00:08:11] picture is a picture of myself and another lesbian mixing Wilkinson who was a friend of mine. And we were standing up amongst a group of people who are seated in the Wellington Town Hall on in April 1995. And it's it was a really, which was organized by the anti gay forces who wanted to stop any kind of homosexual law reform, any kind of human rights, you know, extension to lesbians and gays, transgender,
[00:08:49] everyone
[00:08:51] to extend human basic human rights. So they wanted none of it. And they organized, they got themselves pretty well organized, and held a series of meetings throughout the country. And this particular one was in the Wellington Town Hall. And we went along because we wanted to counter what we knew, you know, they might be saying, because already, they've been a meeting, I think in Oakland and the meeting and lower hat. And the kinds of statements that were made by these anti anti gay people were quite revolting. For example, one of the things they said was get back to the sewers where you belong. And that was just that's just minor, really. So we went along there to basically disrupt and protest in and partway into the meeting. So so we arrived here and on the stage with the speakers, and they just stood up and said, hail revolting. Guys, we're that we caused aids that, you know, it was disgusting, filthy and perverted. You know, they talked about gay men sexual practices, what they assumed to be or thought to be. And so it was just really awful. And people were sitting and yelling and calling out all you know, you know, piss off, and all this rubbish and all these kinds of things. And mix it I was sitting next to mixing. And I just felt like we weren't actually doing it. So nobody was actually seeing us be gay, if you know what I mean. OB lesbian. So Sita makes let's just let's have a kiss. So we just stood up and she said, Yeah, so we stood up, and then we just really had a very big long kiss. And as you can see, from the photo, people are standing up and holding the hands over the heads clapping. People are smiling people around us, we were amongst our in supporters, I have to say, there are a couple of non smiling faces a little further away, because there were a lot of Christians there in anti gay people. And it was just fantastic. There was a camera, the TV camera at the time, and they focused on us. And so that was later on us actually shot on the news. In this way we wanted, we wanted to have us at the forefront, to have us as the focus of that meeting, not the vile things that they were saying. To bring back the focus to us being living and being positive, and, and loving. So the next day, this picture we like, I'm really pleased to have this picture. It was taken by Dominion photographer Dominion post something called one of those reporters. And it was published in the newspaper. But the caption under it said two gay men kissing
[00:12:01] so it was like lesbians are invisible everywhere.
[00:12:06] But it's definitely not to gay minutes myself and makes
[00:12:09] it's great. It looks like an absolutely packed Hall
[00:12:12] was totally packed. It was just made him you could you could hear the speakers, but also there were you know, we were just shouting and screaming some people were just opening their mouths and just going just down the mountain to stop from hearing all that vile stuff. And I remember up in the gallery I think there was a couple of other in peace looking down and, and I thought the kind of looking to see what they're going to get out of it. You know, that was my thinking at the time. But anyway, it was I think it was the most successful protest against the against this awful really, really? Yeah. And I mean, there was so hateful, really hateful. It wasn't just we, you know, we don't agree with you as Christians, but it was You don't? You don't? You don't you don't deserve to live as the message we got which is quite extreme.
[00:13:09] Yeah. Real hate. Yeah,
[00:13:12] that's right title hate and we that goes to NM does murder. So during the homosexual reform campaign, there was a lot of violence against gay men and lesbians, and quite a number of documented cases of men just being bashed up on the street, because, you know, they were assumed to be gay, you know, they were. But when you have that kind of hateful old hate speech, and hateful ideas, as part of the mainstream media, and communication channels will that sits a groundwork that sits the ground and helps the ground for pips, demean to the violent people, or just hateful people to go out and bash one, because you don't deserve to exist. So, you know, they think they've got a right to do that.
[00:14:05] So how did you come to be involved in everything?
[00:14:08] Well, I've been involved in gay liberation, you know, from when I first came out, and Auckland University. And then when I came, I came to Wellington, actually, because I knew there was club here, and there was a lot of action going on here. And an Auckland there was as well. But I just liked the idea of Wellington and the activity. And so when I came here, I got involved and
[00:14:36] do actually
[00:14:39] prepare, you know, initiatives before 994 1995 work. And I remember in the 70s, sitting with people and calibration people, other gay liberation people and mount Victoria and the small flat, drafting up amendments, in submissions for, you know, human rights legislation to, you know, to come in, that was, of course, unheard of, for most of them, you know, for most of the straight people at that time, but so always been involved. And at that time, I was involved with them, these being groups.
[00:15:15] What like, like,
[00:15:18] around that time, we call this we call ourselves various things at different times. But at that point, the call itself leaving coalition, and aim was to support the activities around the homosexual law reform, including human rights reform legislation. But to do it from a lesbian perspective, these me and Elise me and feminist perspective. A lot of people, a lot of women who've been involved in gay liberation, early kind of lift at different times, because of the sexism, and so on have a lot of gaming.
[00:15:53] At that time, not all but
[00:15:56] so, you know, I just wanted to weekend, lesbian, specific groups. And our angle was what we want to come to that campaign from a lesbian angle, so and from a direct action angle. So I think the other point I wanted to make was that around around that time, the MP who proposed the boyfriend wild, you know, in God honor. She and I think maybe there was conservative conservative elements amongst the gaming as well as these fields. And I thought the best way forward was to play kind of planet call, so to speak. So they didn't really want a lot of action on the streets, or people and rallies because they thought that would be in lead to violence, hips or bad publicity, and then we would lose the chance of the sun. That was not our approach, the approach that lesbians wanted to take in so some of us thought, no direct action, you have to directly say what you want in demand it in. So the more out we are, the better. And so, like, in this pamphlet that I brought along, some of the things we said, what can be done, what can be done to fight back against the people who don't want this legislation to go through. So remember, that was at the beginning of 1995, that all of the stuff kicked off, the bills finally passed into law in 1986. And so throughout 1985, there was Salvation Army running around getting people and rest homes and schools and churches everywhere, to sign up, petition against having this legislation in place, and against our rights. And they would short churches, Catholic Church, the bishops of the Catholic Church said this is terrible. other churches came out against that the Salvation Army was a particular unpleasant, you know, group that pushed us. And in the concert, the anti gay people brought in speakers from overseas, like conservative, Christian conservative speakers to say how vile homosexuals were, and you know, so with all what can be done, so I'm just reading from the, from it now. It says right to visit your local MP, asked her or him to support 16 as the age of consent for gaming, human rights for these beings in gaming, no criminalization of lesbians, because we were fighting that that might happen. Make a submission to Parliament, push your union and other groups you belong to, to make supportive statements and write submissions, join lesbian action, do your own thing, get friends family weeknights, to support the bill. There are other things pickets, right, right up, you know, in our magazines, you know, what can be done, then, there was playing for a lesbian gay pride week mark match in May. And there was this was in Wellington, and they were others around the country later. But for the Wellington match, the conservative elements of the pro Law Group said no, don't have a match, it's going to cause trouble, it's gonna, you know, do this, that's gonna bring out the hate. But the match went to hit and it was highly successful. I think thousands of people there marching in the streets. And I mean, I'd marched in the streets and Wellington for abortion law reform for one of the biggest ones in the 70s against the Security Intelligence Service bill, which would have, you know, clamped down on, you know, expanded the powers of the Secret Service and intelligence service. And they were 10,000 people on a march and 1991 during Springbok tour. So the thousands people on the streets in and contrast with it, my history in the past was walking down Auckland, Queen Street, and 1974, about 300 people may be there.
[00:20:16] But not very many. And
[00:20:20] thousands of people on the side, looking at us and pointing it as though it was the gay liberation March, it was a gay pride March and just feeling very, very thinly, thinly, Surrounded and outnumbered by the people staring at us and pointing in laughing and, you know, being abusive, and so on. And then to have that match and Wellington where there were thousands of people for lesbian, you know, for these VN and gay rights. That was fantastic. And I think it was most positive. And I always think it's, it's much positive to stand up and be proud and say, No, we're here. You know, you fuck off. Yeah, you fuck off, you hide, you hide your hate. You should be hiding your hate not proclaiming it. And we should just be acting normally, as ourselves.
[00:21:10] Did you speak in any of the matches?
[00:21:14] I spoke once at Parliament and I forget why now might have been for something else. But I do remember saying we don't. We don't ask for our rights. We We demand and take our rights. You know, I was apart from that exhibit in the town hall. Yelling generally with other people. So I remember going to the Salvation Army home here in Wellington. And I really like singing rather than speaking in front of a big group. And so we went there, and we were singing great tunes, like, Yes, Jesus was gay. Is Jesus was gay. The bar Bible tells us So sure enough, it did. But anyway, that's what we're saying. And
[00:22:06] to the people going into the Salvation Army church on Sunday,
[00:22:12] but um, what the things like there that they built pride, and just, you know, all those kinds of activities, I think, are really important that do make a difference. Because it's telling the other side, actually, we're not going away. And actually, we don't like what you're saying about us, and neither should you be saying it. And so we're just going to keep on being out there till we get what we deceive and what we need.
[00:22:39] So did you find yourself having to explain or be involved in explaining to other lesbians why it was important to be part of something that essentially could be seen is only benefiting gaming?
[00:22:51] Yeah, totally. I'm lovelies we installed arts just to Bill about me, because the emphasis was on changing, getting, you know, I'm making, considering it's between me in legal, which is there had been a legal and to get an age of consent of 16. They've been previous initiatives where the consent age of consent for gaming was proposed to be 21. And then I think 18. I mean, this one was 16, or came to 16. But, you know, when the previous initiatives, people had said, Oh, why did you make the age of consent 90? Because that's what you really want. You don't want us to be here. So a lot of these beings thought that that just affected game mean, that wasn't true, because from a number of points of view, one is that there was the risk that during this law, that in a discussion around the change of law, that it was the suggestion that leaves means should be included. So at that time, 1961 crimes, it was the only thing that affected us. Yeah.
[00:24:02] There was
[00:24:04] a cause it said a woman over the age of 21, if she had, it was illegal to have sex with a pure under the age of 16, which was young child protection. But apart from that, there's no mention of us. And so this would be a backward step to have these fields explicitly mentioned and law with the age of 16. So we didn't want that. And we think the other thing was it was human rights part of the homosexual law, as it was first proposed that was later dropped. But there was human rights legislation as part of that bill initially. So that, of course, would have been beneficial, or some people would see it as not, but we, I saw it has been official. And the other thing is, even though we went in the same boat as gay men, so we went, there wasn't a lot of good lesbians having sex with each other. We were treated as such, we were treated as if we were illegal. And
[00:25:09] from the
[00:25:12] some stories from experiences from the early clubs, like police would just please took down the numbers of the numbers of women going into lesbian club in Oakland, and then went and harassed them and went to the employers and see it are, you know, so that all that kind of stuff. So we were kind of, in some ways treated alongside I mean, it's not the same. We couldn't be arrested just for living without girlfriends, whereas gaming could.
[00:25:45] But
[00:25:47] I think,
[00:25:50] you know, it purely from point of solidarity as well, we should have supported, you know, in any of that kind of progress. Yeah.
[00:25:59] Do you remember that club scene in Wellington around that time? Yes,
[00:26:02] I do. And as I said, I came to Wellington because of the lesbian political scene, I want to be involved in that.
[00:26:10] And
[00:26:12] at the time, there was club 41, which is not far from here. We were having some to the if it was 41, Vivian straight, actually, I think is the restaurant now. And when I go past that, you know, I wish it was different. It was called club 41. Because it was 4841 Vivian street, and it was started by four women pulling summons, and I forget the other three people. Anyway, they started up the club that operated on Sunday nights and Friday nights, Friday and Saturday nights. And sometimes on Wednesdays, it was available as well. And there was a jukebox. So you could go and play all these really Neil's songs.
[00:26:55] And
[00:26:57] it was subject to being raided by the police for you know, if you look at stuff the way it's supposed to. And it's very funny because you the doorway that you went, you know, to go into club 41 there was a doorway next to it. And that was two Sports Club, which was upstairs. So I think it was might have been a soccer club or football clubs, not dead. Maybe it was a Rugby League club wasn't a rugby club. So sometimes you come out from the club, and they'd be mean and straight women going upstairs to the to the sports club. Mostly, it was like a I think, yeah, but it was great. It was just a small place. It was our own space, it was most important and you could go there and it was leaving only. So when I was an Auckland, for example, you could go to places like the Shakespeare hotel, and Elbert Street and upstairs by Shakespeare Hotel in the 70s. That was we're, you know, the the queers wind. And that's where the straits came to, to, you know, was to do sightseeing. So you'd go up there. And, and you figure out who was straight who wasn't in the straits. We usually sittings, you know, steering, and it was most uncomfortable as well. At least you're in the mood. So sometimes you feel in the mood and just show the show off. And other times, it was just horrible. Yeah, so places like club 41 we really, really important, we could go and not have to have any explanation and not be harassed by mean, or, you know, straight woman. So it was it was really good. It was a center for a lot of political meetings. social gatherings. All sorts. Yeah, it's good.
[00:28:47] How many people could be there?
[00:28:50] I don't know. Quite a lot.
[00:28:53] I don't know if you could get dozens and dozens of people in the Yeah.
[00:28:57] Do you recall other spaces around here?
[00:28:59] Yeah, there was. I think there was a club in Wigan straight. Set above a factory. Yep. And then there was the restaurant in the grain of salt restaurant. So there was a place above the people could go to Victoria club Victoria club, they said it's Yeah, it's this one I remember. Right.
[00:29:25] And in your you're a patron of these
[00:29:28] these places. Yes. As much as I could be here. Mostly. Very good. And club 41. Love going there.
[00:29:36] Did you find yourself being a target of any of the discrimination during the time?
[00:29:41] I'm a little bit insensitive at time. So I may have been but not exactly. I don't remember. I mean, other than the meetings is a you know, as a group
[00:29:57] in terms of specific,
[00:30:01] you know, direct to me know, but sometimes I'm polite. So, you know, wouldn't have noticed.
[00:30:09] Yeah. This pamphlet that you're reading from before?
[00:30:14] Yeah, it looks like it's a handwritten photocopy.
[00:30:19] Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:21] And how are you distributing this sort of material?
[00:30:25] Yeah, that's a really good point. Because, like nowadays, this, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all sorts of stuff. So we can get out, you know, you can get stuff out there into a mass audience really quick and cheap, maybe even though cost. But at that time, even to get stuff photocopied, that costs money. And so everything was done on the cheap, free, you know, voluntary labor. So this is actually it is handwritten. That's an a4. And it's been folded into so it's a five, and someone's, you know, color than homosexual, Laura from Bill Scott with a little pink coloring there. And
[00:31:08] did you hand it out on the street, we ended it out. We handed it out at
[00:31:14] our events in we were the least peons. And yeah, so it was all those menial,
[00:31:21] it would have been tricky to for people to have found out information even from the newspapers, trees,
[00:31:27] back rolling the newspapers about what was coming up. So you hit to be involved in the meaning. So if there was like a dance, or you know, a club have been taught something like that, then this, this material was handed out there. So we evil these beings were there was a gathering that we got handed out. And you know, these big public events as well.
[00:31:50] So so so this events that we've got the photo of at the town hall, yeah. How would you all have gone about organizing that, that size? We have people to come
[00:32:01] along, put the word out, put the word out, so mouth to mouth and
[00:32:07] literally put mouth to mouth
[00:32:08] actually
[00:32:11] putting there wasn't more. They could have been? I don't know. Maybe it's just the top.
[00:32:17] Everyone else?
[00:32:21] Yes, mouth to mouth through a couple of magazines. So it would be it was in the magazines as well. That was coming up. But a lot of things things happen quite quickly as well. So it was really a ring around and literally presentation peace. Yeah. Yeah. And it was actually on the radio. There was a radio at the time. There was the woman's radio, the famous radio station, and I forget when the lesbian radio station began, but it would be
[00:32:56] made made not on the radio stations.
[00:33:01] Can you remember what you were doing on the night when the of the third reading, which was July the ninth?
[00:33:07] No, I can't.
[00:33:10] No one can remember everyone. I asked me no one. No one remembers.
[00:33:14] I have no idea I had no, I don't even know where I was. What the goal was in Wilmington, but yeah, no, I don't know. Yeah, no idea.
[00:33:23] Do you remember celebrating?
[00:33:26] Well, only individually like Yeah, yeah, but no, not not. I'm not going out or anything like that. No, I don't. It's terrible.
[00:33:35] Most people have talked to them. They're sort of paid and listening to the radio was Yeah, well,
[00:33:40] yeah. It was such a lie. It
[00:33:44] was probably cold. Yeah. Why would you go out? You know, I have no idea whatsoever. Yeah, not a clue.
[00:33:52] Because I've heard people talk about. So the allege kind of community Patty that happens to have a couple of months afterwards. But
[00:34:02] still a bit of a myth from God, I think I did. I might have retreated to, you know, my own individual world. And, but when I first came into the listening community, and Auckland, and I went to the cape, what was it was the KG Club, that title was down in Beach Road. And I looked around, and I thought we were all old, these fans, because most of the people that I saw, it looked like in the 20s 30s 40s, maybe beyond that night, and I thought we were all not orderly spins, and I see. This was sorry, KG Club in Oakland in the 70s. And, and I was a history student. And I thought we are are all older these fields. Well, and I asked someone, and they said all soon as they get a girlfriend, you know, they get married, I eat themselves not full time, obviously, while they're just getting married off into the suburbs, and you never see them again, until they break up, then they come back to the club when they need another girlfriend, and they may still true. Yeah. And, and I thought, I don't want to do that I want to be, you know, old, when I'm old, I want to be there at the clubs and our clubs and have, you know, like a full full range. So in our own in my own Croatian community, when when we mixed in our community, it was full from 93 to, you know, nine months, kind of, you know, yeah. So everyone was participating in events. And so I thought it was a shame that that's how it seemed to be. At that time, I thought that I don't think that now, but I think it's important to be involved in community. So you can see yourself represented back to yourself through others, not just through you, it's very important. Because, because here is sexual see that the whole time, when you look at, like pictures, all forms of media, TV, movies, everything, that they look at them selves every day, and they can see themselves reflected back to themselves every day, and they think, oh, look like that person, I'll be like that person. And we don't see that as much. But we need to. So we need to swarm the streets and all these buildings around here that are vacant, with no messages without messages and pictures of ourselves. And one way to do that is to be in a community with other people into mixed with as others have your own content.
[00:36:50] How are you involved in community now?
[00:36:55] Well, I belong to Pillai Center below so.
[00:37:00] But I'm not here in Wellington.
[00:37:02] So I need to join some groups and Oakland. So just to see a shift of bacteria, and, and our own, where I live these couple of weeks down the road. And so we have socials with them. Separate from our socials with our more general community we live. So and I want to in through writing, through writing and publishing.
[00:37:31] What sort of things are you are you writing about?
[00:37:34] Well, I just published a book recently on peace, and he lived as the main in the 20th century and our New Zealand. So I've just published published in 2014. So I've been thinking about my next project and what it might be, but I want to plug the book plug, what is the title of the book, okay, the book is called perfectly natural. And as about Iris Florence, Peter Williams, who was born a woman in the 1930s. And Auckland, she had her breasts removed, so that she could live as a man. And she married a woman in 1945. And that's how come I got to know about her, because that was in the papers. And
[00:38:26] they were arrested.
[00:38:29] And so I wanted to find out more about her and how she lived her life. And she died in 1993. And Oakland, is Peter Williams. She married, she lived married one to three other women, at least after 945. And I don't know how she would have described herself. But I did get to speak to her very first wife into very last wife. And I truly believe that Peters saw himself as himself, and maybe didn't identify as transgender or lesbian or gay or whatever, but saw himself is as himself. But anyway, it was, to me it's a story of part of our community surviving despite the restrictions of the time in you know, all the things that he went through to be Peter.
[00:39:33] And what's the name of the book? Again, perfectly natural, and that'll be in bookshops.
[00:39:38] Yeah. Yeah. In the woman's bookshop University, bookshop Auckland into here.
[00:39:45] perfectly natural are the words of Iris Florence, Peter Williams. He said, when he was arrested, why do I have to be treated like this? I am perfectly natural. When I was thinking about this interview, I thought what what is the point of a, you know, there's a point in doing and just of itself, but I thought what what is it that was I wanted to say about the homosexual Law Reform campaign in campaigns of that nature, I think maybe these two things, one is that that campaign and 8485 86 that was built on the work of campaigns prior that we could the Gay Liberation Front, lesbian, these movement, lesbian, feminist movement, feminists, all of that, all of that leading here in from overseas as well. You know, the, you know, linking in with the movements in the States and England, Australia, the song that, that they provided, that was a slowly building foundation on which these things then can happen. And in the more recent legislation, around marriage equality, so on, these are built on in my view on those past endeavors. So nothing comes out of things just don't come out of thin air, they came out of something that's why we have to know the history. And the second thing is the thing of direct action, that no matter what they say, people say no, you know beacon don't upset people don't you know, don't be visible, blah, blah, blah, the message for me after all this time still is being visible is the most radical thing that you can do in being out as the most radical thing that we can do in all its expressions. And so to sort of have backroom deals and the hope of getting some you know, bit of our rights will not work at you demand your rights and you take them in, in you do that is out visible, proud. These engagements g transgender 26 that you're out there. That's that's the most radical thing.