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Jules Lovelock and Ness Simons

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride nz.com [00:00:05] I'm the assignments I am a filmmaker, writer and director. I've been working in the film industry for about just under two and a half years I came to Philly late in the piece. [00:00:17] I'm just like I'm a filmmaker and is I am printed some stuff, and assistant director and production so far. And I completely related and these are the guys that for about five years now. Probably career for me. It's something that I have always had a passionate about, and also a very visual person, the things that excite me of visual rather than written, although, you know, still my reading, in know, a good story. But that's the visual thing that I find really exciting. And also done was played around with cameras, tapes of photography. And so the visual thing is, the visual storytelling is a thing that I really like. [00:01:08] I think for me, I really like story, I like story, almost every form, whether it's, you know, on the page on stage or in film, one of the big attractions for me with film is that it's collaborative. And and there is that visual element. And I think the ability for it to travel as well, you know, it can be it can be made in one country and go to any other country in the world. And so you get to see a different perspective. And, and it's so accessible on that level can be to compete a stage. [00:01:37] Can you describe what kind of films you've made so far? [00:01:41] Well, I might, I would say that mine was a little thriller, ha, the one that I did, I've made to, usually, to thrillers. [00:01:51] And otherwise, I've kind of taken a tech of its pretty mainstream, a lot of the stuff that I've worked on things like separation city predicament home by Christmas, last series was put back on the hook damas chunky of his top of the like. [00:02:10] For myself, I've made a couple, I think, three short tacos of music, video, short, short narrative, as well, that a complete is also writer. And at the moment, I've got two feature films, kind of in development and a couple of short films as well, one of which that jaws and I are hoping will be shooting in the next few months. So we've got some funding through and shortlisted for some more. So [00:02:39] yeah, fingers crossed. What about queer specific film? [00:02:45] Pretty much [00:02:47] everything that I've made, so far, has, has didn't have a clear perspective, in terms of a lot of some my main characters have been queer. Even actually, even the doctors that I've made of all the main people with on camera has been clear. And I actually had a kind of a funny conversation with my father last year, which when he asked me about while my films have, you know, gay characters, and and I kind of felt like I had to defend it and justify it. And and then afterwards, I ended up getting really frustrated by that and thinking, Well, why should I defend it and justify it? You know, why don't we have this content on screen? And why is it a big deal to have great characters? And I guess it made me sad to think about, you know, why it's important to me to have characters in my work. And I'm not saying I always will, but I, I certainly am not shying away from from making sure that characters are front and center of stuff that I write. [00:03:54] I [00:03:56] think it's not something that I would that I would say is, if you like it constrained to a must have, and anything that I do. And certainly, I don't think I can even think there's maybe one character, and all of the projects that I've worked on, you know, across the spectrum, where there's maybe one queer character, and even then I think it might have been a joke. So it's not, it's not. [00:04:22] I couldn't say that it's what I'm making, or what I have been involved in as queer fo today. [00:04:30] But I am [00:04:32] camp. [00:04:33] Do you see yourselves as queer filmmakers? [00:04:37] I see myself as queer and FM I cannot necessarily going hand in hand. And the concept of the idea of queer filmmaking for me and how I guess I would describe it because it is quite subjective, is that it's more happenstance for me, if I was involved in the development of a story, we're, [00:05:02] the character is queer. [00:05:06] I wouldn't say at least that, you know, there's the ripple of fate in the same way that people's interactions with men discover somebody is queer. That's what happens every day. You're like, in society, like but in film. I don't necessarily think that having the queer character means that therefore the story is telling a quick story. My, I'm more kind of going down the track of that it's a good story, rather than that it's a quick story. And what comes from that. And if it's a, if they have like the main character, I think it's something that I'd about what to be clear, but that's not what's defining them. That's the story. And something else that's going on that is, [00:05:47] in terms of whether I consider myself a queer filmmaker, I think it's really interesting that there, [00:05:54] you know, there's constantly kind of little times where you have to define yourself, and I am a filmmaker, and I'm queer in the same way that I'm a person, and I'm queer. And I think that there's times where, yes, I might, I might be considered a queer filmmaker, and I'm not going to run away from that label, if that makes people comfortable to put me there. But I'm a filmmaker, who is influenced constantly by my perspective of being queer. And as much as I'm influenced by my perspective of being a woman, or being a New Zealander all the other sort of parts that may, you know, are part of me. So I think it Yeah, it's interesting. And I think there is a real need sometimes for people to be classified in different areas. So you know, like, for some filmmakers, there might be the Marty filmmaker, or, you know, the Pacifica filmmaker. And I think they go through a lot of the same sorts of things in terms of where do I stick my stake in the ground as well and considering it. [00:06:50] And [00:06:52] it can be [00:06:55] something that people fear in terms of getting funding or support or reaching yourself audience or, and there are some of the challenges and they are quite real. At the moment, I haven't had any kind of big barriers put up in terms of saying that I'm a queer filmmaker. And so, yeah, I don't either they're not necessarily so such a big deal for me. [00:07:20] Is that a fear that you would be boxed in as a queer filmmaker? [00:07:25] Sure. Absolutely. I think, you know, when we're still so limited by the kind of content that we see on screen that we would consider queer. And and, you know, there's a whole other discussion to have around what that is. And I think that that's probably something that everyone comes through from their own position, you know, as it just having a central character is that the the team behind making the film is that you know, that the whole story has more than one character in it. Is it a queer perspective on the world, all those sorts of things. And, you know, when you start looking at things like that, you start to thing films expensive, it's a really expensive medium to be working in. And so you do have to rely on funding in order for projects to happen. And you also need to have audiences at the end of it. So that you know, that funding, people don't want to just give you money to make film, you know, they're actually looking for a return. And so, you know, you do have to kind of keep some of that stuff in mind. And I guess for me, I feel like, hopefully, I went to pick my battles on that level. And so cap for, you know, the story that I believe in without compromising anything, and and work another way to get funding or whatever. or there might be times where I can compromise because it's not essential to the story, and it might allow me to reach a broader audience or make a project. So yeah, I think I'm I like [00:08:47] to think that we're in a place right now, though, that [00:08:53] that the place that we would normally go to get funding or anybody would go to get film funding? Yeah, at least have a PayPal over it. Salvation Army is I mean, you know, we're not talking about, I wouldn't expect there to be an issue. In fact, I'll be surprised if there was an issue around that. These days. I mean, you know, we have come a long way. And New Zealand, and, you know, we still have, you know, things that we would, I guess have to, like, make a stand about and protest about, but I'd like to think that being tuned down for funding, because it's clear is not something that we should have to do not be surprised, I think, if it was happening today, yeah, at least at somebody who's, or some corporation or business or an individual, if you like, you know, philanthropist who's decided that they're quite happy to fund film in some way, but they don't want to fund queer Well, that's a I guess it's a very subjective and a personal reason for doing it. But I wouldn't think of funding body. Yeah, sincerely turn it down these days? [00:09:55] Yeah, I think it depends. I've got my experience so far has been awesome. Actually, you on that level, I've had funding from ready and New Zealand from the film commission from the emerging artists trust in for every one of those funding applications is definitely being quick on the Inquisitor characters, quick storylines. And I think, you know, it comes back to that thing around story, you know, develop your story. And, you know, there's there's that if you can make your story strong enough, then it should transcend any of the kind of areas where people get a little bit nervous about funding. And I certainly been my experience today's That being said, I haven't gone for feature funding, Production funding, and you know, when you start talking about millions of dollars, and they want to know, it comes back to audience again, for me, you know, they want to know, how are we going to get, you know, some of this money back. And on one level, there's this massive platform of queer festivals throughout the world. And, you know, it's a really good market that New Zealand often doesn't have a voice in. But on the other hand, in terms of getting revenue back from those sorts of areas, I'm not sure you know, about the business case for that sort of stuff. And again, you know, primetime TV or if you start thinking about what your audiences, then you have to be realistic about the kind of content that you can put into those places as well. So [00:11:16] I think it'd be interesting is that question again in five years time? Yeah, insane, you know, we we've got to with the things that we want to we don't idea. [00:11:24] Yeah, I mean, it has, if you look back through the history, Museum, film, but film on a global scale, there have been different moments of, I guess, of importance within the cinema, you know, and there's, there was kind of a moment where it was quite fashionable to have the coming out stories, and they were more welcomed, and, you know, broader arena and suffer and a little bit at the moment with, you know, there's a lot of trans stores in terms of International Film Festival and stuff like that documentaries or feature films that seemed to be quite popular, and that's awesome in terms of visibility and taking a different perspective, you know, to a broader market. [00:12:07] So it comes panto this year. [00:12:08] Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:10] Yeah. That's, that's a huge, that's a big moment, actually. And queer film history? I think [00:12:16] it is. It is. I mean, I kind of, you know, I have that one step further, where I'd love to see it being a queer filmmaker. And and especially with the storyline about lesbians, I'd love to see a female queer filmmaker being the one who is directing and writing and stuff that that film. And you know, I don't know whether it would be different on us on that level, but at the same time is in film yet, and it's for release here in New Zealand. But you know, at the same time, if it's good story, and it's authentic, and it feels like something that's unique, but universal at the same time, I'm, I'm happy that it's being made, you know, [00:12:54] how queer does the film have to be before the film? Like we know we're talking to cast storyline? [00:13:01] I think it? I think it various, I actually think that the [00:13:05] answer to that is what each individual is going to answer as to what they consider a queer film. I mean, like, we talked it real queer, and they have their idea because of how they want to target themselves and situation, sales for the audience. But it's so subjective, I think it's very difficult to answer it, except by giving your own opinion of it. [00:13:30] Yeah, and I think it depends, as well, like, a little bit on the market for, you know, like an insulting like outtakes, for instance, then I think that the kind of the parameters for what makes something queer needs to be a little bit more obvious for the audience. Whereas, you know, if you're in a mainstream audience, maybe have any secondary character that's queer, that is, in some way tied into the storyline means that we're getting queer films into those places. You know, it's, yeah, and as I agree with Joe's I think it is an individual kind of point of view on that level, about what makes it clear or not. And, and, you know, that comes with happens the same with, we hear about women's stories. We never hear about so much about men's stories, you know, that women's stories become this other kind of classification. Because Tom Scott might disagree with Yeah, Tom Scott. But we, you know, we hit we have all these kind of classifications about, it's a little bit like, you know, what I call myself a queer filmmaker, it's the same sort of thing in terms of is this a queer film or not a queer film? I think that it, you can kind of look at it from different perspectives, and you can apply your checklist and all that sort of stuff to it. But really, it's only your checklist. And it might be a completely different experience with someone else. [00:14:55] Can you talk a wee bit about the kind of process of making a film walk? How long does it take and voted [00:15:03] for Do you want to start? [00:15:05] Amen. Okay. Okay. I think we've touched on it the other day anyway, it was [00:15:10] no feature films can there's there's nothing really definitive. I mean, mentioned Tom, again, I know that he spent, I think he had eight years or nine years, with that script, trying to get it to the point where they can actually get it made. And not so much this through the work on the script itself, from his perspective, but getting people to buy into the idea of it. And this is a guy that's got a pretty lengthy career now quite high profile. So I think they, generally speaking, I don't think it would be, you know, under five years for a feature film, just the process script, getting the script to have what you feel you can have a crack at saying, if you can get the funding for it takes quite a while. [00:15:55] Yeah, so how long have you been? [00:16:00] I'm not on that level, like, I guess, you know, one of the things that I hear a lot as a writer is [00:16:07] part of the reason that this, especially in New Zealand, there's so many writer directors is because writers are the only ones that can kind of drive that project for long enough that it takes to make it happen. And in that sort of process often in that or directors or the, you know, Jason Silva, as you know, as a New Zealand filmmakers might have a lot of films and as you know, kind of put his hand up and say that actually, he doesn't really want to write he would rather direct but that the length of writing, you know, the seven to 10 year average for a feature film script to be developed to the point of production means that you have to have someone that's going to be committed to that project for that length of time. And you know, sometimes it is only that one person driving it and and often with a producer may be helping along the way. But yeah, I think you know, after the waterfalls and of New Zealand film 12 years took from, you know, here originally, kind of wanting to make it to actually getting it to screen. And that's, that's pretty normal. [00:17:04] Yeah. The other end of the scale was when we film so you may hear the tape, what is a short film? And you kind of do that within six months and go to work? Or leave it the students might? Yeah, [00:17:19] the others of winning? Yeah, you know, and you make the short film, and it's a really good little ones. kind of fall out of it. Yeah. You do that maybe three months? [00:17:27] Yeah. And the short film that we're looking at developing at the moment, I mean, we are [00:17:34] probably planning to shoot it in six months, all things going to plan. But I first started writing it, the first draft that I wrote was at the side of 2012. So I'm already almost 18 months from the date, as you know, I'm not working on it the whole time. During that time, but I you know, from the original idea, it's kind of it's developed and changed a lot to where I could find a place to have it in a short film next in a short film. And, you know, it may change a little more again, before production, hopefully not too much. But [00:18:08] yeah, yeah, I mean, I think I [00:18:10] feel like I tend to get [00:18:12] close. But I mean, that's quite sure you could, you know, probably buy something out in a few weeks and showed it and stuff. But you know, how highs you bar? [00:18:22] I guess, he's gonna go and say it? Is it is it actually was saying on a big screen, it was something Yeah, you look what we made you watch it on the laptop. Yeah, that can be the difference between? And there's a very surprising three weeks. Yeah, yeah. And actually taking the time and let the gestation period be really lengthy, because you actually delivered quality. [00:18:43] But it's a you know, it depends, I think that there is certainly a valid place for the spreading it out. I mean, you and I did it for the outset, specifically in mind, we wanted to have local content on screen. And so we just went off to the atom square VR, and part of that was about us go today, we're going to work together, and how's that going to happen? And, you know, we made some mistakes, and we learned along the way. But, you know, I think I think there is one of the things that I laugh now I remember really acutely being 14 1516, and really struggling to find representations that I could connect with on a queer level. And yet now, you know, we've got this amazing platform and the internet, where people can be in the ass end of nowhere, and still able to access a community or a culture that they're, you know, maybe identifying with or questioning or wanting to know more about nothing, it's amazing. And on that level, you know, some of that stuff that gets spread out is not particularly the best way to spend your time. But every now and then I say stuff that blows me away, and I'm just like, wow, these guys have done an amazing, you know, it's gotten amazing inside, or, you know, there's something going on that I just connect with completely on a human level. And it doesn't necessarily always always have to be about planning and time. It depends what you want to achieve, really. And I think when you're looking at feature films, and you've got, you know, multi million dollar budgets on the line, yeah, you have to spend the time because you probably haven't put all that money on yourself, you know, so. And, you know, I'm really realistic about that. I've had it, you know, I have I guess I have the two hats and I came to writing before I came to, to filmmaking I've been writing for a few more years than I've been making films. And, and I'm realistic, I before that I had, I had a business background, and I understand the value of money. And I understand you know how hard it is to save money to make money whatever way you want to look at it. And I get pretty pissed off with people within the film industry that have an entitlement, kind of actually not just within the film industry within Creative Industries, you know, I've made this great thing, or I've got this great idea. So you should give me some money. And often the people that have the attitude of the ones that don't develop to the point where you know, you want to invest in them. Yeah. Sure. And I think that there's sometimes an issue with that, with quick content, you know, that people can use that as an excuse for not getting funding, when actually it might have been, you know, they had a good concept or something was working, but they just needed to spend more time developing, or they needed to get some other people helping them to benefit. Or maybe it was about average is [00:21:32] about the square film. And I'm wondering, how was the crowd response when you were filming out in the street? Because I think it was, I mean, there aren't that many queer films being made in New Zealand. [00:21:44] No, no, I was really surprised when I went to the launch for outtakes at Acehnese Yeah, I had this moment where I, you know, was, was chatting to the organizers about text message, you know, so how many people from Wellington? And they were like, No, actually, he was the only ones from New Zealand and I and I just had this moment of, really, really, because I know how many are in the film industry? And it's Yeah, it's, um, [00:22:13] I guess they're not making. I mean, I know quite a few Tobin, not everybody, yes, yes, a whole bunch of people that have kind of that are working in the industry in the way that I have been today, which is, you're working on a whole lot of projects, but they're not your own pace, the ones that you're driving, because you're trying to make a living out of it. So there's a lot of people. And then there's other people who do this over here. And they're driving that at the level, like writer, director type stuff over here, they make the living doing something else. And there's a lot of filmmakers around who do that as well. [00:22:46] Yeah, all this. I mean, like, for myself, I kind of still make my living within the industry, but I'm doing everything independently. And, you know, that has its pros and cons. But essentially, it does pay all my bills and give me the freedom and allow me to make all the connections, I need to, to you know, be working on my own projects, and it and put my hand up to work on other people's as well, because I think that's important for me, I'm, I'm way down the rank of where I you know, in terms of what I can achieve with film at the moment, I know that, you know, my bar is so much higher than where I'm at now. But I just hope that I learn and improve every you know, every project I do. And come back to your original question, which was about the outtakes. I found people really receptive to being on camera. And, you know, we basically had a really short kind of spiel about this is what we're doing, which was, you know, exactly that we want to have local faces on screen, we want to showcase it, you know, and, yeah, and just, you know, we basically had a bunch of prompts, and people pulled out a prompt, and it might be a dream, or I want or I hope, or things like that, and then I just finished the sentence. And, and people tend to see a lot of fun, whether it was super interesting, because it was between readings, two and three of the marriage equality, x. And that seemed to be pretty for my label, you know, and I think actually, at the at the fear itself, you know, in terms of what was being said on stage, and stuff like that, it was quite, is a big moment and New Zealand square history. And so it was kind of nice to document that in a small way, as well. And then we could have part two, which is a follow up. Yes. Come through. Yeah, it will be thinking about next year. Yeah. Yeah, so it's kind of interesting. And then, you know, to kind of carry that through. But, so during the submission, and all that stuff that there's so much time and that gets eaten up and film, I can understand what sort of frickin expensive but, you know, from that from the concept, or the writing of the script, or the developing development of a plan for a doc or whatever, three to actually show saying, and then you've got either saying, which is usually double the time of, you know, planning and shooting a lot of the, or even triple sometimes, and, you know, and and then you might have the, the product, but then you've got to actually get it out to the audience. And that's like a whole other amounts of time in terms of distribution and stuff of that, as I try to make that really easy. And I think for the most part, you know, they do it was my It was the first time I've ever submitted anything for a festival and, and submitted the the atmosphere that Joel's and I made, and then also a short film that I made called fascism. And, and one of the shorts ocko, which was interesting around quick content wasn't enough great content. That was cool. [00:25:36] But the subject was clear. And so [00:25:41] yes, yeah. But yeah. But yeah, and so they let us try to make the exam and then all of a sudden, you know, the two of them were accepted. And that was really exciting. It was, it was really nice moment to have. And, of course, naturally, I come from this, you know, I come from this crazy, awesome family, and they all want to come. And so you know, initially I had gone from being nervous about whether or not that get selected than being selected. And then I being nervous, because on a certain level, I can't imagine more of a jury of my peers, you know, I've been living in Wellington, pretty much all of my adult life or generally, and, and I've been in the queer community of Wellington for that whole kind of time. And, yeah, it's a kind of be sitting in an audience of the Wellington queer community. Well, something I made was on screen, scared me a little bit. And then on top of that, my whole family wanted to come. And it was really go. [00:26:37] Because I, I am not from Wellington, and a camera, and [00:26:42] I came out light. I hadn't ever been amazed in the community here. I don't know. Very many people told them, it's pretty [00:26:53] no news for me, [00:26:54] you might be wanting to shake your hand on the right path. [00:26:59] But it was really, I mean, it was so interesting, the whole experience of it being and outtakes. And so there were a short program of four shorts, two of which were the ones that I had submitted and chosen and submitted. And then another one was a short with Allison Victor, which was I was kind of like, Oh my god, I'm in the same kind of, you know, screening is as big as it was kind of cool. And, and then another one was on was Louisiana, which was a revolution of the lesbian movement, in relation to the woman's movement. And, you know, choice, my dad's gonna really love. You know, I was feeling a touch on city about it, and, and then my girlfriend was just like, if we get from here, get over, you know, and she was interested, right? You know, it was I was more nervous about it, then they were just there to support me. And, you know, to support the films that I made. And that was really cool. It's, you know, it's great to know that my, you know, we've had our moments, definitely, you know, going back and from the time that I've come out and stuff, but it's great to know that my family and pretty much bombproof now, you know, [00:28:09] anything, and they would, they would support me. And I think that that really helps me in terms of [00:28:17] having enough sometimes having enough courage to do this stuff that might be a little bit tricky in terms of wearing my heart on my sleeve, about my sexuality, or about the kind of content that I want to put out there. I mean, it also has its has other things that I have to overcome, because I do know that my family are probably going to want to watch anything that I make. But yeah, yeah, it is. It's really nice to have that support. And and to have a from the, you know, from from the queer community as well, as a result of that was pretty cool. [00:28:47] You mentioned film school just before, and I'm just wondering, what was that like going through film school? I mean, we both out at the time. Yeah. What was that? Like? Was [00:29:03] we weren't treated any differently. We weren't treated [00:29:07] in a negative way. Because of that. I was the only queer person in my crew. Yeah, it was just, if I kind of put it on the perspective, W issues here. Really? Because queer. [00:29:23] Yeah, I think film school for me was just like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I just felt like it was a magnified kind of little New Zealand in some ways. And that, you know, for the most part, there were no issues and stuff. But there were things for me, that have come up, like, at the time that I was at film school, everything was so gay, that's so gay, that's so gay. And, you know, my tolerance for that saying has been pretty tiny ever since it first came out. And sometimes it just gets really boring being the person that has to educate everyone else, you know, but every now and then I get on my high horse about it. And, you know, a lot of my crew were young guys, and, and, and I think that, that sounds probably most popular within that sort of demographic. And I've kind of, you know, got to a point where I'm right, guys, here's the deal, you know, and, and it's interesting to them knock ourselves out, but just don't do it when I'm around, because I'm getting really sick of it. And you know, and I was a bit older, I was in my 30s. And as it films go, so I had, you know, 10 years, almost the people that were there. Anyway, so I had this, you know, I had had one of them came up to me, most of them didn't pay any attention, I had one of them come up to me. And it was while I was shooting my short film, so my short film had a lesbian central character. And, and it's kind of about expectations and stuff. And part of it was that she essentially had to be in a changing room, almost naked, or wearing a dress, both of which she wasn't feeling super comfortable about, but she was prepared to kind of go there. And, and so she's standing there, in the drapes, and, you know, the whole kind of cruise in front of her and stuff like that. And one of the people in my crew is kind of in the background going on about I can't even remember what she was talking about. But you know, have guys something wasn't there and just kind of completely running it down. And, and it meaning shit. And, and, and one of the one of the objects had been in that original group when I've gone, you know, guy, right, guys, when he sort this out, he just leaned over to me really quietly. And he said, I see what you mean, in this. Basically, she looks a bit like a decade at the moment. And I was like, Yes, you know, so I'm fairly well, I kind of had some really nice little moments. But I also Yeah, for the same story, I kind of came to loggerheads with the trader, because he just did not get the perspective. And he kept wanting me to write this other bit into a saying that completely screwed my story, you know, but he didn't understand what it was really about, which was about the kind of expectations that we have of ourselves being better than those that other people put on us and how that control the things that we do and how comfortable we feel doing those things. And yeah, he just kind of, you know, the guy two or three feedback sessions with him about it, and the enemy doing the same thing every time until I just kind of like, Look, I'm not going to do it. And if it ends up not working out just with it. Yeah. But yeah, so it kind of, but for the most part, everyone was really supportive. And I don't think also, as they're kind of at graduation film, at the end of the year, individually, at film school, the crew meant to kind of bad budgeted great films that have shot on film and stuff. And the whole crew looks good on these two films, and one of my scripts was one of the ones produced and and again, you know, there's been several characters, and they didn't seem to be kind of any issue in terms of supporting that, or the crew getting on board with the story or any of that sort of stuff or, you know, right, right through the whole process. There were a couple of comments that I kind of heard about and stuff, but for the most part, everyone just want to make this film, you know, which is CO and I think, you know that legal film schools progress even more in recent times, in terms of support, and, and awareness, I think and pastoral care and stuff. And, and for a lot of the time, especially for the young ones. I going there. Sometimes the finding out the guy while they're at films go and they're in the middle of this at film schools and teens, man, you know, it's a really, really, it's an awesome experience, but it's pretty full arm. But the film industry itself is really full on as well. So I think it's kind of it's quite a nice kind of, yeah. But yeah, then, you know, I know, in recent times, there have been young people who are sort of discovering things about their own sexuality while there are films go. And I've been really impressed with how that's been handled differently. [00:33:49] What about the gender balance? [00:33:52] and film? [00:33:54] In the film school? I mean, there's a, there's a [00:33:57] label for thinking, yeah, I'm guessing [00:33:59] is it? Does it change the film? If you've got like a predominantly my whole crew or put all your female crew? How does that work? [00:34:07] Yeah, I think it's really interesting. So in the film industry in general, I think in New Zealand, it was 12%. Or am I just making that up? I felt like a team. Yeah, you know, roughly 10% a women and film and most of them in the production of us. But yeah, but it's, it's a really interesting thing. If you're, if you're a female in the, in the film industry, and you're organized, and you are able to kind of speak your mind and stuff like that, the kind of powers that channel you into the production of a huge a like, like, you have to physically go I'm not you know, Alex, I quite like production. But I've had to stick my stake in the ground about Actually, I could get gobbled up in here, and I've got other things I want to do. And then it films go, I know that they make a really conscious efforts to try and have gender balance grows. And I think, you know, I can micro has a crew of 24 originally, and now that there were 11 women, which was huge for film school at the time. I know the first original film school crew had one woman and a lot of them, you know this, but again, at the moment, I would say I'd say for the last couple of years, the gender balance of film school has been pretty even [00:35:20] before to micro just trying to counter a lot of insects. Hmm. Yeah. [00:35:27] So I mean, it's certainly there's certainly more at film school than there are in the industry. And again, you know, what's happening? You know, is there a disconnect of what happens when they leave the door into them? So it's a tough industry, it's a hard industry to be in. And I think, there, there's lots of, you know, I can kind of see lots of reasons why people would find it hard. And I don't know, whether they're specifically, you know, more geared towards women finding it how to mean funding. But the truth is that there's not as many women and film but also for a long time film was was a boys club. And it has actually only been in recent times that that shift that aren't, you know, that inside of so many industries. And so maybe in five years time, 10 years time, we'll see a big difference and the amount of women that are involved. And there's more receptiveness now to stories with female central characters and all that stuff, it was a long way to go. But I think that that's all, all kind of part of it, you know, there's any number of films that are being made that I don't have a huge interest in being part of, because they're not the kinds of stories that I want to tell or the kind of way that they're being made isn't the kind of ways that I want to make film and stuff. And, you know, I've joked with Charles a couple of times, there's some there's some decisions that get made and I sometimes just rubbish them as being funny boys with boys. And girls always rolls her eyes at me. But you know, there are there are things, you know, this visit this quite a specific approach like you hiring equipment that costs 80% of your budget and not feeding your crew properly. And so, you know, those are things that I wouldn't do. And I hate to say it, but almost every time. [00:37:14] Yeah, it is getting paid as we The boys are. [00:37:18] Yeah, yeah, it's a you know, and so on those levels, I can understand whether it's a kind of attrition rate for women or whether they don't get into it in the first place. Or Yeah, I can kind of understand some of those frustrations. Yeah, [00:37:31] yeah, there's not too many women around here. [00:37:35] But the flip side of that is, I mean, there's a couple of things like I haven't actually had any issues in terms of being a woman on set. And part of that is probably because I'm not afraid to speak my mind. And I think that helps. But also, there are some phenomenally supportive women in this industry. And I have been so impressed and surprised by the support that I've personally been given by women that Aaron, you know, quite powerful positions, or it's not even about power, who are in positions, where I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be having someone that's kind of at the bottom of the ladder or whatever. And yet they have this ethic and this desire to, to work together to kind of improve and, and that really, you have really loved it. And I've been really I've been really honored to kind of have some of that support at different times. It's been really cool. And it's made a big difference. [00:38:30] I got some very good support when I physically feel so literally. And if I stop them think about and I think we're I had doors open for me, and I was given a handout that all came from woman over here we can in the industry for quite a long time, though, that take apart, you do a good job. And I'll give you another one. They tell me a friend to give you one too. Yeah, they [00:38:52] Yeah. And whereas I've been in other industries where it's the opposite. It really, you know, the really is that kind of what I've clawed my way to the tops, and why should I give you you know, you can determine [00:39:03] without judging or even Harsha. Yeah, because you are a woman rather than [00:39:07] you help you out? Yeah. Yeah, no, solidarity. Yeah. But and, you know, the interesting thing for me, is one of the things that I love about the film industry is that it's just not a place for flakes, you know, if you're [00:39:21] just not gonna last day, you know, like, [00:39:26] yeah, you know, like, if you don't do what you say, you're going to do, if you're not reliable, if you don't work hard for every moment, that you're kind of working and stuff like that. You just, you won't get reemployed, you're only as good as your last reference, you know, and, and so, yeah, I don't really like that. And but at the same time, you know, you people are given opportunities, and it's up to them what they do with them, and some of them might only get one opportunity and terribly, terribly badly squander that. And that's them dumb. Yeah, it's a pretty harsh industry. [00:39:58] It's a small town. Yeah. Obviously, I'm even more talking about you know, that gestation period. I mean, if you think if you talk about 12 years, to a feature film here, you know, we're not even the size of a lot of case studies understand. So the machine is, somebody might be 12 years looking project here. But they've got probably seven or eight of the things that they're doing at the same time. And so they're still able to make money out of doing it that way. But we're just so small here, and you can't do it that way. You gotta have [00:40:28] fun. I think people still do it that way. Like, you know, what, [00:40:31] three, four strings deep. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeahs. Over here to give you that, but over the years, [00:40:37] but the flip side is working in Australia, and that doesn't, you know, that doesn't really appeal to me either differently. So what [00:40:44] about I'm thinking of finance and poor? And what about collaboration? How does that work in terms of like, queer film? [00:40:52] With your collaborate? Yeah. filmmaking period? [00:40:56] Yeah, I mean, I think we really, were really lucky in New Zealand that we have government funding, you know, there's very few places in the world that do. And it also kind of creates this other problem in terms of people not being creative about the way that they come, you know, because across the little guests, you know, there's Hollywood, but there's probably hundreds of thousands of people trying to operate in that realm. And, you know, so they also have the independent market. And, you know, there's, there's different places in the world where there's no funding, not a single scenes, and yet people still managed to make films. And, and, you know, just on my first funding applications, and, you know, going so far, but it's not, but it's not, it's not something that I think we, you know, like, I don't think that the set of Film Commission should be the final decision makers on whether or not a project goes a heaps. And I think if people are only looking to them for funding, or, you know, essentially for permission to make the film, then there's a lot of great films that will never get made. And, you know, Josie and I, at the moment, we shortlisted for some funding, and you know, fingers crossed, we get it, but if we don't, we've already got a plan in place, but how we're going to make that, you know, because we're going to make that phone. Yeah. You know, and it's, [00:42:13] it's kind of that thing, too, if we're not going to beg ourselves with the phone that we want to make. Why would the Film Commission God? Yeah. And if we get lucky enough that they do find us, it's fantastic. But what are we not going to make ourselves just because they wouldn't even worry about if you got a bet yourself, 100%, which means if you think that somebody over there should give you money to make your film you've got to be, I think you have to beat this more opinion, that you have to be paid to make yourself regardless, so you just find another way of making it happen. Yep. And that is your principles without compromising your self image. [00:42:45] And I mean, there's, you know, there's been plenty of films that apply for funding and didn't receive it and have gone on to when your accolades, Zealand and across the world, and it's just the thing is know, if anyone knew what a certainty was with film or Bz, right, you know, we all know whether or not we should make a film and whether or not she put our money into it, but you just don't know, you know, and there's so many kind of things that happen along that process of making a film. And I think the Film Commission, you know, sure that there's areas where they can take more calculated kind of guesses, but ultimately, they're doing the same thing, anyone else's, or we think this is a good idea, but we won't know until the audience sees it. And I think we're queer phone plays on that same same platform today, you know, it's, in some ways, I kind of think, I don't know if I want this on record, but in some ways, I kind of think it's an advantage, I, you know, like, [00:43:34] I tell me, it is what now and you Zealand, what's going around [00:43:38] gear, maybe it's about timing, but it's also about, [00:43:42] I guess, the networks that I have, or know or, you know, what I can offer people that can help me make my projects happen. And you know, I've already kind of done that a little bit with some other stuff that we got going on, I'm not afraid to the music video that I made was, was made for a band that was completely separate to the business that funded it. But it was a business that funded it, because there was something in it for them as well. And essentially, at the end of the day, I get to make an awesome creative projects, you know, the band gets a music video, and the company gets something that they really stoked to stand behind as well. And so I kind of think on on those levels a little bit in terms of funding, and I don't know that content necessarily puts me out of contention for any of that sort of stuff. But I guess, again, it comes back to that having a strong enough story, strong enough idea that the people that you go to for funding can see the benefit in it, you know, what's gonna happen? So, yeah, I think crowdsourcing gets used a lot, and I have donated to a few. One of the things that frustrates me is that people sit there and say that, there's no, you know, they don't get to see great content, and, but yet, they never respond to the emails asking for support, you know, they just want to watch it for free online, or, you know, borrow the discs of a mate or whatever. But when filmmakers really actually made $1, when in making the films, they ignore those, you know, crowdsourcing requests and things like that, and, and so I guess that's kind of my challenge to people, if you if you actually like watching, you know, stuff that the filmmakers have made, and they're making another project and support the next project, give them five bucks, you know, if you can afford it, or give them more if you can afford more, but it's, you know, people, it's not easy for filmmakers to, to ask for money. You know, I don't I think maybe it is some actually. But I think for a lot of filmmakers, they understand you know, that they need money in order to make their projects and that they need the support of a community to do that. And whether that community be a queer community or, you know, a community of parents or a community, you know, from a certain country or whatever it is, often you go to your community for support. And so yeah, I get I do, I imagined that I'm going to use crowdfunding at some point in the future for project Jakes. And, again, it comes back to that thing for me, how can I give people something that is hopefully enough for them, and maybe that's something will, will be the project that I'm making, that will be enough for them to go? Yep, I want to see that. So I'm happy to put a few bucks it [00:46:16] up from you can ask all your networks tonight, just going to ask you clearly. She just asked Colin Alex, because basically, the the people that you know, and in your network are the ones that you'd like to think will support your potential mindmeld. [00:46:28] Yeah. Yeah. But you know, and it comes back to that query most of mine. Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:35] Late Bloomer. [00:46:40] I'm a whole different generation. [00:46:42] Yeah. [00:46:44] Let's talk about queer portrayal of the characters in the film. Yeah. People can be portrayed in so many different ways. What are your thoughts about using like stereotypes and the types of language that are used in the explicitness of what's on the screen? [00:47:00] Go on, you've got something to say. [00:47:03] Say, so is it stereotypes are interesting stereotypes can be excellent tools for filmmakers, because they give an audience the opportunity to quickly kind of know who someone is or what kind of person someone else. But if that's where you end your representation of a person on screen, then you've just lost it, basically, you know, like, it's stereotypes are a place to start. And then you have to develop and make these people three dimensional and authentic and human and real. And [00:47:32] that's part of the education process, too, in terms of, if you feel that you need to, but you do you want to kind of get take the audience on that journey with the character as well. Yeah. And if you do leave it just sitting there, nobody's any further heed your films, not your stories, not the audience out in terms of getting a better understanding that Vic stereotype is just a start place. It is also it's a creation of somebody else's lovely city, it's kind of come to them from a different place, if somebody was live to start with a blank page, they might even come up with it, in terms of how they would see that piece. And it's been placed in front of them, and they adhere to it. So you want to take it that bit further. [00:48:18] Do it and it doesn't, you know, that's not just equate stereotypes. This was serious at General, you know, and I think, you know, like, I'm really acutely aware of this, some people might look at me and have a serious thought for me, you know, but they'll be a million other things that they don't know about me that are important, and part of my life and things that I do and say, and Alexa stuff and so I kind of go Yep, co stereotypes there. They're a great way in to something. But yeah, you can just leave it at that, for sure. It just might surprise [00:48:51] you. [00:48:52] It's really interesting, though I like I am when I first started writing, I came about a different way than most people and that I wrote a feature film for write a short film had don't even I don't recommend it. So it's I had to kind of learn how to write while I was also trying to write this feature film, which was wicked anyway. [00:49:12] So that for this feature film, my central character went to central characters a lesbian. [00:49:17] And [00:49:19] I discovered this interesting thing in draft two, which was that I, part of, part of it was about learning about myself. And I find that constantly as a filmmaker, whether I'm, you know, in terms of writing or directing or, you know, crowing or anything like that, is that I'm constantly challenged about my own kind of worldview, or the way I think and do things or what it is I kind of want to put out into the world. And so I've written these lesbian characters that were, I wouldn't say perfect, but I was so kind of there was sort of taboo to me, you know, like I could, I could push my own character so much better than I could with these, these main characters. And so I had to take a step back, and I was really lucky, I had [00:50:02] the lovely Graham Titley as my first writing teacher who as you know, a phenomenal kind of figure and screenwriting for New Zealand. And [00:50:12] he was the one that, you know, he just said, this really gorgeous way of kind of leading me down the right track without even telling me what I needed to do. You know, he just kind of had me question What was going on? And let me find it out. [00:50:25] And [00:50:27] anyway, so he started kind of questioning what was going on for my these main characters and, and I discovered this, this thing about myself, which is that I was so sick of watching stereotypical portrayals of lesbian that I didn't connect with, I didn't understand I got frustrated word I got angry about sometimes, you know, that, that it almost [00:50:50] paralyzed me into writing my own lesbian characters, because I was so scared of repeating, you know, kind of poor representations that I've seen from other people coming out of here. [00:51:04] Yeah. And Simon says, this [00:51:07] is your typical box. Yeah, that people had any opinions on it. [00:51:10] And as you know, it's, it's a really hard thing to confirm, say it's, and it's, you know, it's not like I, you don't necessarily think that I'm fantastic at it now, but I'm aware of it. And so I try and kind of push that a little bit further. And it's the same with, you know, different kinds of characters, you know, Oh, God, people going to think this character is my dad, well, if they do want to, you know, what's, what's my kind of statement here? Or what's going on? What do I want them to think, you know, that sort of stuff, and she gave his good mother? Yeah, and, you know, but then there's, there's other things as well as sometimes you just to eclipse, you know, like, I, there are stories that I know, that I might at some point be able to tell, but I'm not ready to, you know, like that, that I'm not ready to kind of expose myself kind of that much. And it is, it is quite exposing, you know, in any creative realm, I think it's, you know, the same for a musician or a painter or, you know, certain point. So, you know, how much am I going to expose? And sometimes, you know, that's around the content, but sometimes that's just been me, you know, and it is one of the things that, that I feel like I need to push, you know, that I do, I try to push it anyway, in order to kind of get there because otherwise you do get live with stereotypes, you get live with these people that are safe, you know, that part of the reason that we see so many tears lapses, because they are safe, you know, they're a safe representation there and accepted representation of a certain kind of person or a certain kind of moment. [00:52:45] Pretty [00:52:46] well, I love it when stereotypes that take three if you've watched type three, so it's a New Zealand short film by Rosen young, I think his name Yeah. And it's some Chinese women stereotypes. And for this funny, really, so, you know, I want to do the quick version of that. That's what I want to do, you know, because it's just, she takes these stereotypes, and she moves on from them so nicely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have watched a couple times it has made us laugh out loud, funny. And I don't do that very often for thanks. But it's interesting as well, but this, you know, you go through moments of the being more media attention paid. So kind of what's happening on screen or not, like, just today, there was a report out about how TV is saying film in terms of representation on screen. And, [00:53:36] you know, that is great. And you see, what's it called? doesn't ever quit character these? Yes, but [00:53:43] see, this is where it comes in the last year or two. [00:53:46] But, yes, still there. [00:53:48] Yeah, they are still there. And so that's the interesting thing, and it's about the times in terms of society, but it's also about the times for the audience, you know, so if you're here on TV, and you know, I will embrace I always have been issues with women grace, because he was never actually gay, you know, he didn't, he wasn't allowed to, you know, kind of get really hot and heavy with guys or anything like that. And it was primetime viewing, so they never would have been able to get that stuff through the censorship, right? So is it enough that they've got a queer character in primetime? Or, you know, and on Sunday was it as but on other levels, and I just got frustrated, because he's not actually, you know, like, his his safe quit. He said, queer, you know, and, and we see that a lot and TV, we see queer characters who are known to be queer. And there's some kind of ways in which they are queer, but they're not actually sexually intimate with anyone or, you know, even kind of exposed in any way to intimacy as a queer person with an adequate person. And I think there are TV programs that really push that like shortlist, right, you've got to give it it's true for that, you know, [00:54:50] it's Glee and modern fan. Yeah, [00:54:52] there are there's definitely more now than you so but I think there is still a real spirit need there for a lot of TV. And, and I understand why it's there. I mean, TV is only ever about advertising. I hate to say it, you know, like in terms of funding and budgets and stuff like that. So who's going to advertise and amongst this, and so when you start polarizing your audience, and whether that's worth any kind of community that's outside the mainstream? It's, that's have to be safe to do that. So yeah. [00:55:25] So we've talked about characters, but I'm wondering that there are other aspects to filmmaking that maybe have a kind of a, like a queer content. So like, the length of a short, the way that a scene is short. Can you talk about how you think about those kind of things? [00:55:46] I don't think about it from a clear perspective, to be honest, I don't mind for about all of those things are about the storytelling in that if it like what you see in the frames there for a reason, that the way that the camera angle, is this for a reason. [00:56:05] It doesn't change, if you will, if you've got like, say a predominately queer audience to mainstream audience. Wouldn't that change? [00:56:15] No. Because if your story is for a queer audience, that's what makes that queer, everything else around it is actually either good or bad filmmaking, or good or bad decisions around how you're going to shoot it, or colors or, you know, all all the other aspects that go into filmmaking, I don't think would be, [00:56:40] I think you'd be constrained to have to do it a certain way to make it clear. [00:56:45] Because, I mean, there's the genre, the genre can drive, how you shoot apps, that can drive, how you do your sayings. Or you could take the basic filmmaking rules that you have, for how you do a myriad of things within the whole design, what's in the frame, and you can break them, because it's clear. I mean, to make it different, or to make it fractured, or whatever, but I don't think you're doing it because it's clear that it has to be that way you're doing it because it might tell you, it might be the query speak of you wanting to take from the story, or what the audience is typing a story? I don't know, if it's, I think it would be bigger, rather than if it was me, I think it would be at a bigger level ideas than just say, the shot of the angle of the camera or the dialogue that I mean, dialogue, it would be to maybe something that's a bit more journalistic, but the language that you use quite BCI language, but yeah, I, you might create films that, that that's not what I'm here to do. Early. [00:57:56] Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, I kind of there times when I'm acutely aware of that, like, I have just had a moment, I've been working on this feature film that I've had the opportunity to workshop over and a number of months with actors and stuff. And the central characters queer, and this, the sort of main storyline is as a quick story line, and I have had several moments of like, the thing that I know, in terms of my next draft of just going to the end of the first draft, the thing that I know, that I need to establish, before I progress is what is my audience? am I writing for a queer audience? Or am I writing for a mainstream audience? Because there are certain things that are coming up. And it's not just dialogue, it's also action. And, you know, it is how I portray that sort of stuff as well. And, and in some cases, the dialogue is a, you know, there's a there's a line of dialogue that I had between straight character and sort of between two queer characters, but one of them's very young in the, in the old equation, character system, so IU family, Dean, and, you know, referring to another character, and he's like, No, no, I just, I just know him from you know that in that, because he doesn't get that. And so for a queer audience, there's a number of people that will laugh at that sort of stuff. For a mainstream audience, they didn't get it either, you know, and so it's kind of like, if you can get away with one or two little things like that. But actually, overall, you need to be quite clear about how it is that you're approaching this film. So because so many incidents, and within that will either switch an audience off, [00:59:32] or, [00:59:34] you know, my experience of watching films that I felt like queer films, from a straight perspective, let that sort of stuff, you know, the interactions and toilets might be different that, you know, like, I know that that's not, that's a very general kind of thing. But you know, what it might not get stereotypically, what was even, it's even things like, you know, so you've been to women only events, and all of a sudden, people go, I don't have to just keep them. So let's go on to the guys who are that, you know, as that sort of stuff, it's, which is certain amounts of it, you need, you need to give context for a straight audience. And so that was one of the things that was coming up for me with my script is that there was quite a few things that I had to give context for if I was writing this for a mainstream audience, or for a queer audience, not so much. And so that happens at a start saving at a script level. And then also, when you come into to filming and directing it a casting as well, you know, like, for me, one of the important things in my filmmaking so far, and and, and I feel like I'm going, but I won't really know until it all kind of continues is that, you know, I remember when The L Word came out, and all of a sudden, there was this whole show about lesbians, and it was really exciting. And then I was just like, in these bands, you know, and it's the interesting thing for around authenticity. What do you mean? Isn't that the actors aren't [01:00:58] na, are, the actors have a portrayed lifestyle? [01:01:03] Yeah, and I'm not saying that listeners that don't exist anyway, ever. But they are not the kind of lesbians that I know and have known. And, you know, and it's, it's great that we're getting this representation and, and one things I loved about the outward isn't from a woman's perspective, as much as it's from a career perspective. And that's friggin awesome. And so all those sorts of things come into, you know, like, for me, part of is about having authenticity of actors, as well. And, you know, so far, I've managed to do that working with non actors, and I kind of hope that I will be able to continue doing that working with non actors that, that, you know, I can find queer people who have the ability to portray these characters on screen. And so that influences the decisions that I make around shooting, you kind of have to work a little bit different with non actors than you do with actors that are really experienced. And so you know, there's a, there's a shift there again, and then in terms of camera, yet, it does influence you know, and as much the, the male gaze influences the way I shoot things, you know, it's like, when I had a scene with a character who is changing, out of addresses essentially, naked for a part of it, I was really, uh, we're about wanting to show that she's beautiful, but not wanting to have a from that male gaze perspective of being something which is just an object, you know, and that it's not just your body, that's gorgeous. In that moment, it's kind of a vulnerability, and, you know, and so it's kind of, and I think that there's a level of, I guess, a queer gaze for me on that. And that perspective, as well. And then I am aware of the angles that are used on you know, characters, and how this can kind of influence the way they powerful or not, or vulnerable, or not all that sort of stuff. And so it's constantly being aware of that in relation to my characters. And and you're right, you know, a lot of that is story choice. And, you know, that story should be should be guiding the film. But I do think that I would shoot the same story slightly differently if I was shooting it for a mainstream audience or for queer audience. But we'll see, we'll see. I mean, because one of the things that that I do, you know, really want to achieve is to have, I want to get a short film and an idealist mainstream festival. And so that will be but then I also want that short film, to travel to the queer festivals throughout the world. So similar not working, pull that up. [01:03:34] Watch that way closely, was always going to be really watching it. But you know, that see, the creative process will be as the creative process. And whether you're making a decision to like the example that you're giving with the short whether you're making the decision to make sure that that wasn't going to be seen from the you know, the male gaze specifically was one thing, but to me, that's actually more about a woman than this queer. And it's more about the creative choices that you subjectively make as you go through your process as a filmmaker. And I guess what I'm saying is, it's not if you want to take the Queen perspective and acknowledge that that's who your audiences, that's going to help drive your creative process. But it doesn't matter what the bunch of my what that decision is about the audience over there. everything you're doing your creative processes. Yeah, that's, that's pretty subjective. But it was is sure, [01:04:29] yeah. [01:04:31] Yeah. I mean, I think it comes back to that thing that I've said, right, right at the start, in terms of being a queer filmmaker, I'm a filmmaker that is made up of a million different paths. And each of those paths influences everything that I do. And there's times where, you know, being like you say, being a woman has more influence than being queer. There's other times where being queer has more influence than, you know, being in my 30s, or the you know, all that sort of stuff. It's kind of [01:05:00] it'll basically Rosen into one, but there are moments where it is really acute. For any of those parts. [01:05:09] Are the different energies in a screaming full of queer people full of women, or what mainstream audience? Do you find there are different energies going on? [01:05:23] Absolutely, [01:05:25] yes. Yeah, I do. [01:05:28] I mean, I've noticed, I don't think I've been to [01:05:33] up into two, I forget the examples I've seen the most audience participation have invariably been outtakes, that people stand up and clap. Just because it was a great queer film was a great story, but they're more observant. Whereas you wouldn't necessarily get that you would go see a great film in the cinema. And you don't get the people over it. That was good. And you're talking to each other's I'm okay. But I stand up a clip. But then, if you it is screening, where most of the students are the filmmakers that stand up and cheer, and they won't go and they're laughing? and all this sort of stuff. And I said, it's actually quite a cool experience as well. And you know, very much. [01:06:14] Yeah, the cast and crew screenings and, you know, reaction, what happened to this specific moment of it? No, you didn't see it in the background. [01:06:24] Push was about? [01:06:25] Yeah. Yeah, all that stuff. And I think, [01:06:28] you know, even within [01:06:31] the so many different things that, you know, changing audience, when I talk about kind of knowing an audience was for something that I made, I still don't even really know them, because, and I try really hard to keep it in mind, in my process, in terms of being true to myself, because when every single person comes to a movie, they bring every experience that they've had with them to that place. And so you know, we can all watch the same film and have a really different reaction to it. [01:07:00] Somebody asked, [01:07:03] Is so subjective, and I guess the best that you can hope for is that you're going to get you more than three stars. And the greater proportion of people will think that it was worth more than three stars, then everybody thinking it was one? Yeah, [01:07:17] I think I'm, you know, I like, the place that I'm at is that I hope that I'm happy with it, and the people that are involved in making with it, making it happy with it. And all the other stuff. [01:07:31] Bonus. [01:07:32] Yeah, pretty much. You know, like, it's, it's our world at a certain point, you just kind of have to go right. [01:07:41] Yeah, yeah. And I hope I get to experience a lot of times [01:07:46] and not be disappointed it? What comes be actually, [01:07:49] yeah, and, you know, I mean, I'm pretty realistic at the moment, and that I know, I'm still gonna stuff stuff up. And I'm still getting tape, but no, I'm not so but but you know, that the you know, that, there's probably still going to be a reasonable difference between what's in my head at the start of something to what ends up on screen at the age [01:08:09] idea. [01:08:10] And actually, in some ways that can be awesome like that. Like I say, the one of the things for me that film is that it's collaborative, and there's kind of this the three stages that the script or the planning is the production. And then there's the editing, and film should be evolving at all of those points, you know, and so one of my kind of safety nets is that I don't really want to be the writer, director and editor on staff, because without having another influence, I'm kind of limiting it to only being as good as I can be. Whereas I, you know, want to, if there's other people influencing the project at different points, or may or [01:08:44] I actually try it like, it wasn't, I didn't little project is not long after I come out of film school. And I very quickly figured out that, actually, I don't like the idea. This has been what I do this particular thing that I was working on, because as promised, shut, this is no fun. Yeah, and it's also an evil, I had a really strong idea. And I pulled it off, and it was fine. And because of the nature of what it was, somebody else's point of view, or whatever, probably wouldn't have added that much or subtracted that much from it. But it was really clear for me is that I really don't like doing it like that. I would much rather be part of a team in play in grow and develop with somebody else. Rather than doing it by myself. It's just, yeah, cuz I've got my view. And in my world, it might be, you know, the P on a no, but nobody so the hidden GIFs a shadow mystery, something that takes in other respects, and it can play that back. Because the audience always looking for themselves and what they see on the screen here, and they've got to say something, they don't have to be able to see something and then inhale, it reflected back at them, that's up to you that's going to like, drive with like or dislike effect. [01:10:01] Yeah, so it's not even just like a like, it's about having a connection with it engaging with it. Yeah. You know, and, and, and that's, I guess, you know, we're story as my favorite films are ones that, you know, kind of a unique experience, but, uh, but a human experience at the same time, you know, that they're the universal, but they're grounded. So specifically in one moment, or place, or event or situational character. And I think it is that thing of, you know, we go to the movies for different reasons, we make movies for different reasons, whether it's, you know, for straight out in entertainment, whether it's education, or, you know, because we want to see the world from a different perspective. And and, and that happens on both sides of the coin, you know, and so it's, it's always really interesting to, to try and work out that sort of stuff from an audience perspective, and especially if we're talking about, you know, how does that govern the way that we show? But for me, it comes back to that thing of that I should from for myself, I guess first and hope that all the other stuff? [01:11:06] To watch it yourself, why should anyone else Yeah, but but usually the people around you, you know, like I'm, I have, one of the things that I struggle with so much with writing is that I spend a lot of time in isolation. [01:11:21] It writing is hard. But um, but I, but I love having written and I love it, you know, kind of taking taking it on from there as well. But it is that thing of even as a writer, I can get my work to a certain level, but then I need other people, I need other people to give me some feedback and give me some perspective. Because this these things that we do, whether it's writing or, you know, other parts of the film, we're layering all this meaning and and we don't even know that we're doing it because we just so good at understanding the world around us. And so sometimes, you know, we might find that we've got other stuff going on that way, we're busy focusing on something that was happening above it. But someone asked us what was that? And that's the first thing they say, and that's because that's what they connect with. And that's what you know, they relate to their world and, and so on that level, I think it's the more people that you've kind of got going on, the more chance that you have to elevate something that that has that complexity that you're looking for.

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