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Hi. My name is Joe. Um, for the last few years, I've been involved with facilitating Utopia, which is a queer support network for Queer Youth, and it runs in Christchurch. We have kids aged between 13 and 25 coming along every week, and we basically just hang out, have a bit of fun. Occasionally we do a few workshops and things, and we do quite a lot of cool stuff because we do a lot of fundraising. So, you know, if you want to come along, go for it. How [00:00:30] did you get involved with Utopia? Um, I kind of got kidnapped by my flatmate who was a facilitator at the time. And at the time I was identifying as a lesbian, and I got dragged along to a meeting one night and look, I found a lesbian, and that was it. I was the only female facilitator. So that was it. I wasn't allowed to leave, so Yeah, it's been five years, and I've kind of shifted my focus to the offshoot of that now which is forge, which is for trans youth. But I think it's one of those things You [00:01:00] never really leave. So can you tell me a wee bit about Forge? Yep, that was put in place by one of our facilitators, Evan, probably late last year. And it was just sort of out of a need for trans youth to have a bit of their own space because some of them don't identify as queer. And a lot of the issues that trans youth and trans people have are different to the ones that queer people have. So we thought we'll start something up for them and just sort of see how it goes. And it's going really well at the moment. What are some of the different [00:01:30] issues that are different from being queer? I think. Well, I mean, everybody struggles with body image, but for trans people, that can be a lot more of a big deal. And also for trans youth, being taken seriously is quite a big issue. You know, when you come out as queer, a lot of people will get hassled. You know, maybe it's the phase. You're so young, you don't know what you're doing, but she wanting to realign your gender to how you feel inside is a huge big deal and a lot of the time her parents struggle with a lot more as well. [00:02:00] So what kind of age group are we talking about? Um, I think the youngest we have in Forges 16 and around about mid twenties, I think. But yeah, the facilitators. I think we're both 28 but we've got quite a few young people around the 16 17 mark. I never figured it out that young. It's amazing. Can you talk about some of their perspectives on life and [00:02:30] trans issues? I mean, does that surprise you? Some of the stuff that they're coming up with? It's amazing that some of them just don't seem to struggle with it The way that I remember struggling with it like I was, I don't know, Maybe it was the age thing. I wasn't really thinking about it until I was in my mid twenties. But then at 16, they're so sure this is who they are. This is what they want. This is what they're gonna do, and it's just that simple for them. They're like, I'm a guy, I'm a girl, and that's really just as simple as it is. And that's just really amazing [00:03:00] to see 16 year olds with such assurance about themselves and just some of the stuff they say, like Oh, yeah, I'm the guy and they just say it like it's just the most natural thing in the world Whereas I was just a mess for ages about it. Where do you think that assurance comes from? I really don't know if I knew I would be going to get some myself, I think, actually, but I just I don't know. Maybe it's something they've been thinking about for so long. And also, I think having the trans space helps them a little [00:03:30] bit, because when they come along, they automatically get gendered correctly called by whichever name they want treated the gender they want. And I think that helps them feel a little bit better about it, too. Uh, we might be the only people who are taking them seriously, so when they come along, they automatically know that they're gonna be treated the way they want to be treated. And I think they really like that. Can you relate to some of the experiences that I've told you about? You know what it's like to be in the school system at the moment. What? We've got [00:04:00] one young Trans guy, and he's just finding it really, really rough at school. Being Trans, uh, won't be called by his preferred name by any of his teachers, and his guidance counsellor is probably the only support that he really has. And I can't really imagine what that's like because I didn't come out as Trans till I was in my mid twenties. But it must be really isolating because people, especially young people who haven't really had too much life experience, it just sort of lump [00:04:30] it all in with the queer thing. Or they get the whole fetishized, you know, transvestite kind of thing. And it's just really not like that. And a lot of the time they just feel really ignored. Yeah, I think actually, most of the kids we've got are finding it really, really rough at school at the moment. And a lot of them just haven't even come out at school because it's just not worth it. They think they'll just wait until they leave school at university and sort of do the change then, which does make a lot of sense, sort of trying [00:05:00] to change that in the last couple of years at high school would be a bit of a mission, I think so. What are they like when they you know, the first point of contact when they come into contact with the group, they're usually pretty quiet. And we're sitting there going, Oh, how are you? What's your name and all that sort of stuff? And they're just monosyllables, which is not that uncommon. Queer youth. Anyway, a lot of the time, they don't really want to talk that much, but yeah, once they realise that we're not actually trying to preach at them, we're not trying to change their mind. [00:05:30] We're not trying to educate them. They just really get into it. And we just talk about all sorts of stuff, and I think they find it a relief that, you know, we don't think they're crazy like it's not really a massive support group. Like we think they're not through anything. We just want to hang out and have a space where it's kind of tacit. You don't really have to say I'm trans all the time and talk about trans stuff all the time. Like most of the time we just talk about movies and stuff, but it's just really nice to know that people understand what it's like [00:06:00] and it's sort of freeing just to not have to talk about trans things. It's really cool. So we just talk about whatever. So did you have anything like that when when you were coming out? No, I didn't even know how to be gay when I came out. I just kind of thought, Well, I'm gay now. What do I do? Hit the dating sites? Bad idea. But never mind. I was like, I didn't even know where to start. So I just started at the wrong end, went from there, and there was nothing. When I was first [00:06:30] questioning when I was 18 or 19, there was only just one group at university and I just went along and there were just some middle aged women there. I thought no. So I just kind of had to find my own way, which was really, really hard. And if there had been something like Utopia out there, then I would have probably not had quite so much of a nightmarish time in the first couple of years of being out But a lot of our facilitators have started working with Utopia [00:07:00] because there was nothing like that when they were coming out. And I think it's just such a good thing to be doing and especially with the Trans thing, it's just it's Christchurch for a start. It's just unheard of. People don't talk about it, and really the only thing we've got is agenda and that it does have an older person focus. It's not really geared towards really young people, so it's quite good to have something out there that sort of focuses on young people and what issues they might be having with being trans and agenda sort [00:07:30] of. They feel like they have to cover everything. But with just a specific focus on the trans stuff, I think is quite valuable for our young people. So does the Does the youth group, um, have any tie in with agenda? We're working on having a bit more to do with them. They've got quite a lot of really valuable resources and I think a lot of the trans people who are within agenda would be really, really good for our kids to talk to as well. I know that, uh, teenagers [00:08:00] aren't often that keen to talk to people about things. But, I mean, everyone's story is different. Everyone's transitional journey is different, and I think it might be quite good for them to hear quite a few different opinions on it. That and, um, yeah, there have so many books in the library, and I think we have the National Agenda Library at the moment. And I think it might be quite good to just put a few books in the kids' direction. And, yeah, have a bit of a read be good for them. It's good for us, too. So maybe a little book group or something. [00:08:30] So what's Christchurch like in terms of the the kind of queer and trans scene? It's conservative. Slight understatement. It's getting a bit better because there are obviously really strange people like me floating around, stirring things up or trying to when I'm awake. But it is quite gendered lesbian, gay, and there's not a lot else that goes on, at least not publicly, which is a bit of a shame. Um, the trans scene really, [00:09:00] really small. There's really not that many of us around who actually Well, I mean, we're always around, we're everywhere, but I don't really get together much. So you have to sort of find your own friends where you can find them and just stick with them. Like I've got quite a few trans friends and we all just hang out together, but it's taken me a long time to find them. Um, I don't think we really get taken that seriously on the queer scene, which is a shame. Like, I don't know when I go out, people still think I'm a lesbian, which is [00:09:30] unfortunate because I never like being called lesbian. Anyway, could you at least call me a homo? That'd be great, but yeah, when we want to do stuff, the trans people just go to the other queer stuff and just people make what they want of us, which is, unfortunately usually incorrect. But never mind. Uh, yeah, it is very conservative here. We don't have a lot that goes on on a regular basis. It's just during Pride Week, and occasionally there'll be a big event. But it's really not that often, so people just kind of do their thing [00:10:00] quietly in their everyday lives. Basically sums up Christchurch. Actually, we just kind of keep to ourselves, which is a shame. It would be nice to see a bit more community, but we're working on it. So did you come out? Um, both in terms of sexuality and gender at the same time? No. I thought I'd do the ultimate shock value with my parents and do it twice the ultimate torment. Um, the sexuality came first, [00:10:30] and I sort of settled into that. And then I was like, No, no, there's something still not quite right with this picture, and it took me another. Probably it's probably about five years in between the two coming out. So yeah, it took me a little while. I kind of settled into being queer and and people would label me as a lesbian and I'd think, No, no, I don't quite like that. Why do I prefer being called a homeowner? Why is that? And eventually I figured it out anyway and came out again and made my mom cry again. And it's all good now. [00:11:00] Which do you think was hardest, or were they both equal? I think the Trans was actually easier. In some ways, it's harder to be taken seriously because I haven't transitioned yet. I'm still not taken seriously a lot of the time, which is fine. I don't really care anymore. But the sexuality was harder because that was sort of the first shift from being what was considered normal. But by the time I've been living the queer lifestyle for five years already, and I was already out there doing [00:11:30] Pride Week and drag King drag queen, drag everything I could get my hands on just, you know, really, really, really gay. Anything I did after that was not going to be as much of a shock. And most people in my life have been really good. I think it's harder for Mom and Dad because they're losing their daughter and they're gaining a son, but it's just that's hard for them. But in general, I don't think I really could have shocked them that much more, and I was already pretty weird. So actually, I'm a guy where he wasn't as big a deal as I thought [00:12:00] it would be. How did that conversation happen? Um, I just said, I'm coming over, I need to talk to you and I just sort of sat on the couch and looked miserable for about an hour. And eventually Mum just said, All right, OK, what? I said, Well, you know how I've been really depressed lately? There's a reason for that. I'm transgendered and she said, Oh my God, no And just kind of ran out of the room and Dad was sitting there saying, What's that? It means she wants [00:12:30] to be a man like Oh, no, but yeah, a couple of hours later and lots of crying and lots of hugs and I had to try not to overload them with too much information straight away, because it's just huge. I've been their daughter for when I came out 26 years, so I tried not to talk too much about what the transition process would involve, and I just sort of tried to focus on, you know, this is how I feel about it and to let them know that it takes as long as it takes for them to [00:13:00] get used to it. I thought about it for God knows how many years before I sort of came to terms with it, So if it takes them at least that long, then cool, whatever. But yeah, they're getting their head around it now and helped me choose my new name and everything, So I kind of like they're helping me get involved and stuff, which is really cool. When did you start having gender identity thoughts? Um, I think it would be the first time I dressed up in drag as a drag king when I was maybe 21. [00:13:30] I think it was the first time I actually bound down my chest and I was like, Oh, that's what it's supposed to be like. This is cool. And I always thought, You know, I just I go and do shows and stuff and I'd spend hours and hours and hours in drag at home practising. And then I realised it wasn't actually practising. All I was doing was just looking in the mirror, thinking, you know, this is cool. And eventually I realised I didn't actually like performing, either. I hate it. I get really bad stage fright, I think. Why am I doing this then? It's like an excuse to dress up like [00:14:00] a guy, and I thought, Well, yeah, I could just be a guy all the time. Simple. So once I started thinking about it like that, it kind of went downhill pretty quickly from there. And probably only about six months after I really started seriously thinking about it, I thought, right, this is how it's gonna be now. So, yeah, I think it was about the beginning of 2009 when I finally sorted it out and I was heading up to Wellington for the then. So I thought, right, Try the new name. Try [00:14:30] the new gender, See how it goes just because I was going to meet so many people, that didn't know me. So I wanted to see what it would be like to be gendered correctly called by my new name, and it was just fantastic. So I've never looked back from there. What are your thoughts when you see somebody coming along to the sport group as a 16 year old, and they're just very definite about, you know, um, the agenda and things like that. I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm so jealous of you right now. I didn't figure it out for 10 years [00:15:00] after they figured it out, and I think with the transitional process which is so long and so painful and so expensive and time consuming. They can start so much earlier. But then again, it's not always a bonus. Like I had an extra 10 years of maturity, sort of. I can see a lot of young trans people and, like, I have to do this right now. I need my hormones. I need my surgery. I need this. I need that. Everybody has to call me by my right name, all the time kind of thing. And they're just so desperate. And I think the added experience has made me just [00:15:30] a little bit more patient things take time, Endo appointments, take time. Surgery takes money. And you know, I've lived enough of my life already to realise that patience is the key. Uh, it's taken me. How many years to get used to the idea. It's gonna take another. How many years to transition, and that's absolutely fine. It's it's cool. But these young people, I think, you know, even if they can just start the process when they're 18 and they're gonna be amazing by the time they're 25 they'll be done. I hadn't even started when I was 25. So I'm [00:16:00] so jealous. Can you talk a wee bit about the just the practicalities of transitioning? And you you were saying how you know it takes time and money. What are those kind of requirements nowadays? Um, the first step is to get a referral to a psychologist from a GP. So you have to convince your GP that you're serious enough to be sent to a psychologist. But most GPS should realise that it's not their place to make the judgement. And that's why you're paying, you know, $4 million an hour for [00:16:30] a psychologist to say yes, you're actually transgendered and you need a psychiatric letter from a psychologist. It's usually a couple of sessions with They just sort of make sure that you know what you're doing, know what the consequences are, and make sure that you're sort of in your right mind and able to take on the It is a massive thing to be doing. So I just want to make sure that you're OK about it, doing it for the right reasons and that sort of thing. And once you have that, you can get a referral to an endocrinologist. Well, that's different. Sort of. Wherever you go, [00:17:00] Christchurch, you need a psych assessment first, I think Wellington you can just go to the end, but you need to get your psychologist letter after that. So in some respects I'm ridiculously jealous because I could have just gone to an endocrinologist and got my testosterone already if I was in Wellington. But just the way Christchurch is quite backwards like that. So psych assessment first and then the end, though, but it's just a huge period of waiting. It's a six month wait for an endocrinologist appointment here, which is ridiculous, but it's just the way it is. [00:17:30] So I can wait. And if I wanted to be awful, I could play the mental health card and say, I'm really depressed. I need my testosterone right now, but, oh, I don't really need it. I want it really badly, but I don't need it. Whereas some people who go to the endocrinologist actually have something really, seriously hormonally wrong with them. And why should my wanting to transition sort of be put above what they need physically to be alive? I mean, I'm pretty healthy. I'm alive and my body [00:18:00] may not look the way I want it to, but I can wait a few months for my testosterone, so waiting it is, and that's absolutely fine. Um, the surgery sort of. It's just a money thing, and it's a preference thing. It's around for a trans guy to get his chest done. It really depends where you go. In New Zealand. It could be up to $15,000. 18 maybe. I know a guy recently who got done for about that much. I'm personally looking at going to Australia. [00:18:30] There's a really good surgeon over there and it will be about 10,000 and she does some really good work. I know a couple of guys have gone to Thailand and they've had results that they're happy with. And one of my friends went to America to one of the best surgeons for chest surgery that he wanted, so it's really just a preference thing. But for me, um, depending on the size you want to start with, you might need a revision or something and I don't want to go to America and then have to go back to get it fixed up. So I'm thinking Australia, but, [00:19:00] yeah, that's just a sort of depends how you want to pay for it. I don't personally want to take out a loan because I've just paid one off and I've nearly paid off my student loan. So I'm looking at saving, and I mean, it's just sort of depends on the comfort level, like some guys have really big chests or whatever. They just really just need it gone. And I can understand that. But I'm quite lucky. I can't really think about it that much because it's easy for me to hide mine. So if it takes me a couple of years to save up, then that's fine. I'm really not that worried about it, but it's also I'm [00:19:30] quite comfortable with my body. It's not the way I want it to be, but I'm quite comfortable with it at the moment. And if I have to live with it like this for a couple of years, and that's sweet, Uh, you mentioned earlier that, um, when you were coming out to your parents, um, in terms of the the gender that, um, you had had depression for for a while, Was that specifically because of what was going on in terms of the gender and the sexuality. I think it was. I get [00:20:00] depression quite badly anyway, and I think a lot of the problem was that I'd been out as a guy living as Joe for a year, and I still hadn't told Mom and Dad thinking These are two of the most important people in my life. Why haven't I told them? But I, I just really wasn't sure what sort of reception I get. But I don't like keeping things like that from them, and they've always been really good to me. We're all we've always been really close, so I felt kind of shitty about it. Why haven't I told Mom and Dad and I knew that once they got used to it, that would probably [00:20:30] be my biggest support, and I would need them to do the transition thing. I needed them to be on board, so it was sort of like the pressure got to me in the end and I was just a mess and thought right. I just have to tell them I've been doing this for ages, and it's getting to the point where I'd have girlfriends who didn't know me as and the girl. They knew me as Joe, their boyfriend, And I felt like I couldn't bring them over to introduce them to my parents because my parents still call me a and they'll be like, Who's that? And that would be really confusing for them and be really [00:21:00] uncomfortable for Mom and Dad and them. So I thought, I'll just tell them, you know, the sooner they've got a chance to get their head around it the better. And I sort of felt like I wasn't giving enough credit thinking that they wouldn't cope. I mean, they're my mom and dad, and they've always supported me through everything. And I've put them through Helen back. So why wouldn't they support me through this? So I thought I was give them a chance and they have been good. They've been really good to me. So, yeah, Has the depression gone away? No, [00:21:30] it just kind of It was always there, and it changes a bit. It gets worse. It gets better at the moment. It's rough. Maybe next week it won't be so rough, but it really I think growing up a little bit has helped me managed it quite a lot better as well, just sort of knowing what I need to do to take care of myself. And if I keep the rest of my life in balance, then the Depression is OK. It's only when things get a bit out of control. Like if I'm having stress at work or bad relationship or something, it's quite hard to keep it managed, [00:22:00] and I do lose a little bit sometimes. But generally speaking, I just have to be a little bit vigilant and sort of make sure that I'm looking after all the aspects of my life, which is a bit tiring, and I really wish I didn't have to do it. But at the end of the day, I have depression, so it's really my responsibility to manage it. And if that means just taking two pills a day and that makes me a happier guy, then that's worth it. Do you see many mental health issues in, um, your youth support [00:22:30] group? Is that something that that that is frequent or it is surprisingly frequent and I'm not sure if it's just a result of being queer or if it's just something that's happening in general with more young people these days and people eager to make diagnoses and put people on pills and all that sort of stuff, It just seems to be like every second kid in the groups on some sort of drugs for a DH D or depression or they're into the self-harm thing or it's just it's actually really, really sad [00:23:00] because it just wasn't I don't think it was really recognised as much when I was 16, sort of. I didn't really know anyone who was depressed except myself, and now it seems that just about everyone is, But it doesn't really seem to bug our kids that much, which is amazing, like when you think about depression, you quite often think you know, can't get out of bed sad all the time, and these kids are taking, you know, the same medication that I do and they're fine. They [00:23:30] come around and they're just buzzing and they're all jumping around with their friends, and it's just it's really cool, like they don't really seem to let it bother them. It's just sort of like another fact of life. Yeah, I'm queer Yeah, I've got whatever mental illness they been with today, and they just call it. I think, you know, they don't make as big a deal out of it as older people do. Like I think, um, older people sort of live their diagnosis a little bit more. Maybe young people just think. Oh, well, you're labelling me anyway, just whatever. But [00:24:00] older people, I've got depression. I've got this. I've got that and they seem to focus on it a little bit more. Young people seem to feel like they've got too much to live for. And who cares about being depressed sort of thing. So that's quite cool. It makes me sort of look at mine a little bit more positively, too, I think just thinking, Well, I don't let it bother them. Why should I be miserable? So it keeps me young. Do you think it's easier coming out now than it was when you did? Yeah, even I think it must [00:24:30] be about nine years since they came out, and even now it's just so much easier. When I came out, my mom and dad and my friends and stuff, they didn't really know any gay people. And now, like every second person's queer, which is cool. I think it's awesome. We should take over the world. But, yeah, there are just so many. There's so much more queer sort of stuff going on in the media and, you know Oh, isn't that Ellen DeGeneres queer? Isn't she a lesbian sort of thing? Everyone knows. Oh, isn't that guy on American Idol gay? You know, [00:25:00] everyone knows of someone who is queer, which is fantastic and, you know, even like Trans stuff is getting a bit more out there like the movie Transamerica and stuff. I got my parents to watch that, and I thought it was great. So I think people are getting a bit more aware of it, which is quite cool. And it's just not such a huge big deal anymore. And people are making such different lifestyle choices to the choices they were making even 10 years ago. You know, people just doing what they want to do to be happy now, which is cool. So I think it'd be a lot easier to come out [00:25:30] now, like if I could come out now to my parents, I'm sure it would be a lot better. So when you were coming out, what were the things in the media like on TV or in films that you remember as as being queer? I think when I came out, it was around about the time on that programme, Bad Girls, where the prison officer was in love with the inmate kind of thing and I was like, Oh, she's so hot kind of thing So I was like, Oh, yeah, that that's the gay stuff And I think the L word was just sort of coming out, too, so [00:26:00] that I don't know. It's kind of misleading because that's not really like real life everyone. Is that what it's like to be a lesbian? And I was like, Well, I wish it was, but unfortunately, no. So there was that going on, and there wasn't really a lot of lesbian stuff going on. Then it was more, you know, Priscilla, Queen of the Desert had just come from there was playing in Melbourne or something, and everyone's like, Oh, cool. And, you know, they just hear about a couple of New Zealand celebrities who come out as gay or something. Oh, then [00:26:30] I where the man's gay kind of thing. But there wasn't really a lot going on then. I think the L word was the worst bit, though, because everyone was like Is that what you're like? No. Oh, and the top twins, which is I don't know, Like I think my mom was scared I was going to end up like that. So I I was going to be, like, one of the top twins. I'd be like it already, but, you know, I think she the people just thought I was going to change or something. But I was just exactly the same person [00:27:00] I just told them about it. It was It was the only thing that was different. Can you yodel? No, I can sing, but I'm not yodelling. It's really not my thing. I'm more like barber shop and jazz. Hey, we were looking through some of your old photographs. Um uh, just before we started recording, What is it like seeing yourself? Um, as as a young girl, Um, I think I was cuter than than I am [00:27:30] now, and I don't really look at it and think, Oh, that was so wrong. That was so wrong. like a lot of trans people, sort of. They felt wrong their whole life. I didn't really feel wrong, like I was just a happy kid, I But I think with a lot of young kids, they don't think about the agenda at all. Like you get labelled as a boy or a girl and you think cool, but you don't actually care. It's just not important. And it wasn't until it really started mattering when I was a teenager that I even thought about it. But [00:28:00] so I just think, Oh, yeah, that was just me when I was a kid and I was just really happy and I was a really happy kid. I had a great childhood, so I just like looking at the photos, and it just seems weird seeing me with long hair. But apart from that, it's cool. If there was anything that you would say to somebody coming out now, either through, um, for kind of sexuality or gender, what what would that be? I would just say there's no right time to do it. There's no wrong time. There's no right [00:28:30] or wrong way to do it, and it's different for everyone. um, just get support from wherever you can find your allies and stick close to them and just be really patient. It takes time, and you may have been thinking about it for years, but often the people you've been, you know, you're telling won't have been thinking about it. So you give them a bit of a break. And it's really hard when you're young and you want everyone to understand so desperately. But people won't always or or take them time. And it does hurt [00:29:00] when the people you think are gonna understand don't. But you could be really surprised by people you think they won't get it, who are just amazing. So just be who you are. Stick with the people who care about you and give people time.
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