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[00:00:00] So Grant, thank you so much for Um, coming in doing this, uh, audio interview today about, uh, your time in Parliament as a Rainbow politician. My first question is, after so many years in Parliament, uh, doing your valedictory a couple weeks ago and then packing up over the last couple weeks, is that a strange feeling? Very, really odd. Um, it's sort of at two levels, I think. The first of those is that [00:00:30] I'm pleased to be going to my new job. I think it's time for me to finish. I think the new job I'm going to at Otago University will be interesting and challenging and exciting, but I'm also sad As well, because this has been such a big part of my life. Um, you know, I first came to work in this building here in May 2001. I had a couple of years away in the middle, but up really the last two decades of my life have been about this job and this role. And so, um, I think [00:01:00] it's probably natural to feel sad. I'm also leaving from a group of colleagues. We're currently sitting in the Labour leader's office, um, slightly camped out in his office when he's not here. And that, uh, you know, that feeling of leaving a group of people that you've worked with for a long time and they are sad. And so it's just such a tumult of emotions and in picking our up here in Wellington as well. So I definitely find myself. [00:01:30] Feeling quite, quite odd. Yeah, quite strange. What, what drew you to politics in the first place? I think I grew up around it and in the sense of politics with a small P in that my mother in particular was quite a political person and we talked about political issues at home. So, you know, the Springbok tour or the anti nuclear movement or whatever it was, was the issue of the day, was the subject of discussion. And my mother had a [00:02:00] a brand of her own politics, which were, you know, certainly left leaning. And my father was probably slightly more center right, although over his life. moved more to the left, unlike a lot of people. But that, you know, there was a lot of political discussion. My grandfather had, my mother's father had been a candidate for the Labour Party in the 1950s, although by the 1990s he'd ended up in the National Party, which was all very strange. Um, so, but there was a lot of politics around. And I [00:02:30] think particularly as the fourth Labour government came into power in 1984, 40 years ago this year, um, I felt You know a bit about politics seeping into kind of what I was doing And I think if you talk to my high school friends you'll find that I was a bit unusual that I was interested in in politics and then eventually got to university and Got involved in student politics and it sort of all rolled on from there When you think about the last 40 [00:03:00] or so years, I mean there has been such incredible social change and, and, and just, you know, for both of us, I think we're of a similar age, just how, um, that change in terms of, rainbow legislation has been extraordinary. Isn't that we were to be doing this interview in the rainbow room, which is one of the select committee rooms in parliament. And I talked about this in my valedictory speech that one of the things I'm really pleased about that room is that it has the front pages of the legislation that's been passed for rainbow communities or with [00:03:30] rainbow communities. On the back wall. And it's a real education, you know, 1986 being law, homosexual law reform and aging us both. But I was in the fourth form at high school and, you know, I was very aware of that debate, um, for lots of different reasons. And, you know, I think as you get older time telescopes, doesn't it? But for me, that doesn't seem that long ago, but 40 years is actually a very long time. I mean, 40 years before 1984 was. the end of the Second World War. [00:04:00] So, you know, if you think about the time gap, um, perhaps we should, we shouldn't be surprised and we should be, have an expectation that this is the progress that we have made over that time. But as you well know, it was hard fought progress over that period of time, but yeah, absolutely enormous social change. So what are your memories of law reform? Well, in 1986 or 85 probably, um, I was an active member of a [00:04:30] Presbyterian Church youth group and my parents were at the time both elders in the Presbyterian Church and so our whole life, our social life, everything was geared around the church and it was a Big topic of conversation within the church. And I have one very specific memory, which his memories are may or may not be completely accurate, but I'm pretty sure it is, um, of a, of a picnic day for the church. I think with other churches and we were [00:05:00] building rafts and there's a lagoon in Dunedin and we were sailing rafts on the lagoon. It was hilarious and fun. And someone was circulating the anti law reform petition at this event. And I remember it caused a huge row and it caused a row at home because my, I don't, I think, Both my parents were probably supportive of homosexual law reform, but my father thought it was fine that the petition was being circulated at a church youth group event, and my mother was appalled by this, and I [00:05:30] have a very vivid memory of that. I was sort of coming to terms with who I was at that point. I probably hadn't quite said I'm gay to myself out loud, but I I had feelings, I was sort of aware of it, and I clearly was because several years later when I moved out of home I found I'd clipped out of the newspaper, um, the voting record on homosexual law reform, so, yeah, but I was too young to have [00:06:00] experienced the actual, you know, events that surrounded it. Um, and I remember by, if you fast forward 10 years, I was here in Wellington and I went to the 10th anniversary event, which was here in Parliament down in the Grand Hall. And that was quite an occasion, um, for a whole lot of reasons that probably aren't worthy of our time here, but, um, put it this way. Some of the, some of the sores of the campaign was still open and people, there was quite a lot of interesting tension in the air [00:06:30] about it. And it was, of course, you know. 10 years was only 10 years and there was still a lot more to do. But yeah, so I, I kind of caught up with some of the bits of the campaign that I was too young to know about. At the time of you growing up and, and kind of moving through college and then university, were there any kind of, uh, support groups for, for rainbow people or youth groups? There were latterly. So, I mean, my, my sort of journey was that, You know, through high [00:07:00] school, I obviously worked out that I was gay and I went to a single sex boys school and I played rugby and I sort of didn't really quite fit the mold and on, on either side. And so I re I was struggled with it and I told a few friends and that didn't go very well. And so I, I didn't really have any kind of formal support network. I didn't meet some gay people through those years who were kind of, I guess, uh, Kind of an informal support network, but where that change [00:07:30] was when I got to university and there were groups there I eventually Flattered with the guy that ran icebreakers in Dunedin and yet I can tell by your reaction that you remember icebreakers Which was a group to assist people with coming out and it ran all over the country I can't I wouldn't be able to tell you who'd started it or how it began But anyway, it was a it was around I knew people who are in it By the time I sort of was at university and I was out, um, there was a lot more [00:08:00] around to support, support us. And then something I'm extremely proud of actually is that when I fast forwarding a little bit further to when I was the president of NZUSA, the New Zealand University Students Association co president, um, we brought in place, What is called UniQ, which still exists. And we started that in 1996 off the back of a project that Matt Soberg did. And I'm sure you know Matt, um, who sadly isn't with us any longer. And, [00:08:30] and Matt did this amazing piece of work. And the outcome of one of his recommendations was the establishment of this network around the country of support groups for queer students. And. Yeah, I love it. When I go into university orientations now and see that nearly 30 years on UniQ still there. So we obviously were. That's interesting. Just thinking about the kind of, I guess, the long tail of legislative change. So you've got homosexual law reform, 85, 86, but we're [00:09:00] talking, you know, five, 10, 15, 20 years later that that kind of societal change happens. It's fascinating, isn't it? We used to talk about, um, Charles Chevelle, when he was an MP, he used to talk about the attitudinal agenda. So you kind of have the legislative agenda, which is making that change that you need to make. from a rights basis, and that is the foundation of being able then to move forward. But the attitudinal changes don't necessarily come straight away. I mean, I'd argue homosexual law reform was probably just ahead of the curve of the [00:09:30] population, really. Only just, but you know, just ahead of where the population was. Similar with civil unions, and I think civil unions facilitated marriage equality. But it takes time. You know, I'm, I'm a marriage celebrate now. Um, and I did, uh, a wedding for a lesbian couple recently and I can't, it was just so many people at that wedding coming up saying this is our first gay wedding. You know, and they were kind of quite excited to be there. But you know, like, if you think about it, it takes a [00:10:00] long time for people's lives that aren't intimately affected by a piece of legislation to necessarily run into it. You know, and I think that's the thing that, And sometimes attitudes can harden. And I'm sure we might come back to this later in the interview, but also, um, being vigilant. Um, you recorded Des and John out in the city the other day. And I just thought it was a really interesting thing where John talked about visibility and vigilance. And then just within a week of that, We had Brian [00:10:30] Tamaki and his lot, um, painting over rainbow crossings. You always take the wisdom of John and Dez. So thinking back to the 1990s and we are still quite close to homosexual law reform, when you decided to start getting into kind of more national politics, did you find there was any overt or maybe, um, Homophobia on the quiet. I mean, did you? Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Like, I was very conscious when I, so I came to work here at [00:11:00] Parliament in 2001. And I was conscious then that, you know, we had MPs like Chris Carter and Tim Barnett by that stage in caucus, Georgie. Um, and it was, I was always just a little bit conscious that it existed, you know, and there is. a challenge for mainstream political parties, parties of government, if you like, there are a million issues that you could be taking up and what ones you choose to take [00:11:30] up and what timing you have for that is a really big political decision. So there was often, I, I got little kind of feelings every now and then from some people that perhaps they weren't that thrilled that, you know, This bit of legislation was this far up the agenda. And should that really be our focus and so on? And every now and then that would spill over. Um, I was very fortunate that I, my involvement in the Labour Party and then in turn and becoming an MP was here in Wellington Central. And, you know, I remember one of [00:12:00] my friends once joked, it's the only electorate in the country where it's an advantage to be gay. Um, I don't think that's quite true, but you know, like I think, I think it, it was never an issue. here locally ever, um, which was great. Then subsequently, when I did run to be the leader of the party and by the stage where, you know, 2013, 2014, there's no doubt that in the first campaign, particularly in 2013, it was an issue. Um, and it was raised in different ways, some, some overt, some [00:12:30] covert, but clearly an issue. Um, that was the, you know, is New Zealand ready for a gay prime minister? Yes. Now, of course, and you know, like the stupidity of that even being a question, but you know, I have this memory of that. So the 2013 labor leadership campaign, we did like about 12 or 13 public meetings around the country with labor members. And we did one down 2013, and I remember I felt quite pleased with how it performed that night. [00:13:00] I thought I gave a really good speech and I answered the questions well, I got a good reaction from the audience. And there was this couple, gay couple who came up to me who I knew and said, Oh, you were so good. You were wonderful. And then just sort of, as we were, you know, Oh, we're not actually going to vote for you, though, to be the leader of the Labour Party. And I said, sorry. And they said, oh, we just, we're just not sure that, you know, for Labour, having a gay leader would be good for us and blah, blah, blah. And I was, you know, devastated by that because clearly there was an internalization [00:13:30] of homophobia there that, you know, is hard to break. I think that's one of the saddest things. Um. For me as well, in terms of how things can get reduced down so very quickly into, you're just gay. Or for instance, if you're walking down the street, you're just a fag. And you can do the most amazing things in your life. And still to some people, you're just Yeah, I know. Isn't it extraordinary? And, and not, I think there's two parts of that that make [00:14:00] me sad. One is just The fact that people will judge you that way. And I mean, I skipped over it, but in, in 19, I'll get my years wrong. 95, I always can remember by where I'm living. Yes. 1995. I was out with two girlfriends one night and we came out of Casper's and I got this guy just punched me in the face and called me a faggot. And you know, like he was eventually arrested. The whole thing was very weird, but you know, so there's that manifestation of it where it can be. [00:14:30] Just horrendous. But I also think the other side that just makes me sad is that we don't embrace people's diversity. And I make this, I've talked about this probably with you more than once. I don't like the word tolerance, because to me, the word tolerance sounds like you're putting up with something, you're tolerating it. Whereas I think as a country, we will be so much better off if we embrace diversity and be there. Sexuality, or gender, or race, or whatever it is. [00:15:00] And that kind of makes me even sadder, that yeah, you can be pigeonholed, you can be boxed up. And, in many ways, I guess that's one of the things I've tried to do over the years, is not allow that to happen too much for me. And even right at the end of being a minister for years, Every now and then it would pop up saying, is Grant Robertson really gay? You know, this kind of thing. It's like, so, you know, it's sort of, I've tried in a way to be the opposite of, you know, I was in the crazy nights and the gay rugby team that started here, [00:15:30] tried to be a part of trying to break some of those stereotypes down, but you're absolutely right. It's, it's really sad that people can't judge a whole person and, um, well not judge, but you know, except a whole person, but rather judge them for one aspect And this is, I think, is where people like, say, Georgina Beyer come in, because actually the stuff that she had to deal with and the fact that she rose above that and, and became such a hugely productive member of [00:16:00] society, both nationally and internationally. I mean for me, she's a hero. How do you feel about Georgie? I feel, I feel similarly. I gave a, uh, eulogy, which I'm sure you recorded at, um, at her, um, her memorial service. And, and I reflected the mixed relationship that Georgie and I had because she was one of the people who said New Zealand wasn't ready for a gay prime minister, you know, and it was so, I tried to tell that story as sensitively as I could on the night, because I [00:16:30] wanted to tell it because to me, it said something about Georgie in that, You know, she, she was reflecting that baggage that she had carried for her whole life. And I think I did tell the story on the night of the fact that years later when she was in here having coffee one day and she was very sick. And she, you know, she came over and he kind of welled up with tears and said, I'm really sorry about the fact that I said that. And I was trying to be sympathetic [00:17:00] to her. And I said, Oh, well, you were probably right at the time, Georgie, there was a lot of reluctance. She went, Oh girl, I know I was right, but I'm sorry. I see that. It was just like, but you know, yeah. So. I have, I do have that mixed emotion about Georgie, but then on the other hand, she was an extraordinary individual. Like being, working in here with her, you saw examples of her charisma, of her, um, resilience, [00:17:30] of her stickability, And her, just her ability to do and achieve things, you know, and the things that stand out. I mean, again, I've talked significantly about these in other interviews, but that speech on the prostitution law reform bill was incredible. And I was working for Helen Clark at the time and, you know, it was a, you know, it was a member's bill. It was in Tim's name, but. We were managing it, as you do, [00:18:00] and it was, you know, it was a free vote, so there were Labour MPs voting against it and for it. But we wanted it to pass, obviously, and so there was quite a lot of management of people, and it was right down to the wire. And it was Georgie's speech that made it pass, because, um, there was a Labour MP who was going to vote against and then abstained, and we got it through. By one vote. And it was that speech, the power of that speech that night. And Georgina herself had mixed views about the [00:18:30] legislation, which subsequently became quite negative actually, and then probably more positive later. But the power of doing that. And then obviously the Brian Tamaki rally, where I was standing with her on the steps as a staff member. During the Silver Union Bell and myself and Ramon Maniapoto and a couple of other people were up there holding our rainbow flag and then Georgie just bolted down the steps because she was so upset and angry and we famously walked along the front of that group of people and we're running behind her with our flag trying [00:19:00] to catch up with her. Um, you know, she just had that ability, um, to, to seize a moment. Um, and you know, in some ways I feel There was a sliding doors moment for Georgina, after the 2005 election in particular, where she, you know, she didn't get a ministerial post. She was pretty disillusioned with where things were at, and she was a list MP by that stage because [00:19:30] Um, she kind of had to be slightly convinced to carry on anyway, and I just feel a bit sad because I feel like there was probably more for Georgina to do politically. And then she popped back up a bit later on with Internet Mana, but it didn't go anywhere for her. And then she got very sick. So yeah, but an unbelievably talented individual and someone I was really proud to know, um, we weren't close friends or anything, but we'd always talk to each other when we saw each other. And complex. I love, I [00:20:00] love complex people. I mean, you know, I, I, you know, when people reduce down to either you're this or you're that, but actually she, absolutely. And you know, you talk to those who knew a bit of like Mel and Scotty and them, and they'll, they'll, you know, they loved her to death, but. By golly she could be frustrating and I tried to get that across in that speech that I gave at her memorial service because I wanted to to praise her but also to acknowledge that like us all she's you know flaws and character traits that are [00:20:30] challenging. So what was it like for you at the Destiny Church Rally here in 2004? Because one of the things we do When we look backwards, I mean, history has been written so we can see how it turned out. But at the time we didn't know, did we? No, we didn't. And in fact, even in that moment, we weren't, you know, that. It was very shortly afterwards that I realized that that rally had actually been a positive for the campaign. But in the moment, I definitely didn't feel that way. I've got a couple of kind of memories, obviously the Georgina [00:21:00] one. Um, I remember cause Alf, my partner is not a particularly political person, but he came down that day cause there was a counter rally or whatever. And for him, the really upsetting thing was it was overwhelmingly a Maori group that Brian Bowden and he found there. Extremely confronting and difficult. Um, my friends, uh, Cameron Law and Jeremy Henson, Cameron was very involved in the campaign for civil unions and he met Jeremy that day, met [00:21:30] his now life partner at the counter protest, you know, so I remember there was sort of that, that's in my memory as well. But what I, I remember being appalled and horrified and upset, you know, all of those things. But then, um, And I don't know how quick that was now, but it feels to me like within sort of days, there was a couple of people who had been wavering to New Zealand First MPs, Brian Donnelly, rest his soul, who's passed away, and another New Zealand First MP who's still with us. Um, we're not still with us in Parliament, but still with us. And both of [00:22:00] them, I know that the, uh, protest outside was a factor in them voting for the bill rather than against it. Because they just didn't want to be associated with it. That kind of mob mentality and so yeah, so I think quite quickly I worked out that Mr. Tamaki was one of our secret agents. So one of the things I find with, say, New Zealand politics is that, um, you know, people have differing views, but they [00:22:30] can change. They can change their views, unlike say maybe in the US where it's a lot more kind of black and white. Do you find New Zealand like a fair society in that we kind of can think it, you know, we get presented an argument, we think about it and we can change? I think so, yeah. It's, um, I guess the reason I'm hesitating is I feel like in some senses that, um, we might be becoming less of that society.[00:23:00] And I think some of that is the influence of the U. S. and elsewhere offshore. I've certainly seen examples of people being prepared to change their views over time, um, and A lot of that understanding comes from people's personal interactions. And so where I've seen MPs change their votes, it's more often than not a personal thing. I mean, I mentioned Brian Donnelly before. As part of my work here in the building, I've been [00:23:30] I, I looked after education issues when I worked for Helen Clark in her office, and Brian was an education spokesperson for New Zealand First. He was a former school principal, and I had a lot to do with Brian. Um, and I remember as part of the campaign when we were, Tim Barnett, he was an amazing campaigner. Tim, he'd have a spreadsheet with where everybody was voting, and we, Brian was in this wavering category, and I remember I wrote Brian a letter. Just a personal letter saying, look, Brian, you and I have worked together for quite a long time. You [00:24:00] possibly don't even know that I'm gay, but I am and blah, blah, blah. And here's what matters to me and so on. And we kind of formed this sort of bond and I actually remember, I didn't, I was pretty sure he was going to vote. For the bill because of what had happened with destiny, but I remember sitting in the chamber on the day of the of the bill passing and Brian looking up at me and kind of acknowledging me and I was like, yeah, you've you've you've definitely going to do that. So I've observed it. But I also think that [00:24:30] polarization. I'm, yes, I'm seeing more of, and I think you're absolutely right. There's a line out of a Billy Bragg song called Between the Wars where he says, um, sweet moderation, heart of this nation, desert us not, we are between the wars. And I feel like there's an element of just war. I mean, that's a metaphor, but it's not a Billy song. It's a real thing, but it's a metaphor really for me of, we just, that moderation, I, you know. has [00:25:00] helped us get things over the line. So I think you're right in that sense, but I wonder whether we're going to hang on to it. The 2000s were, again, really significant, significant change under, um, with Helen Clark. Um, we had prostitutional reform, we had civil unions, but we also had the repeal of the provocation defence, which doesn't really get a lot of, doesn't get a lot of attention. But were you involved in that? Um, I was, yeah, [00:25:30] not closely and certainly not as closely as I was in the other ones, but um, you know, the so called gay panic, um, as it was, was a big issue at the time and you, you make a good point that that, that, that. Has sort of slipped through the net in a way. I've, I, I'm trying to recall. I feel like it went through under a crimes act re um, repeal law, review law and probably had a whole of other things that were going on around it. And so it didn't get as much attention, but it was a massive issue. Um, um, gonna [00:26:00] struggle to remember the name of a couple of the high profile. Cases were used, but there was a couple up in Auckland, if I recall. Yeah, no, I wasn't as closely involved, but you're right. It was another achievement that probably should be noted more. It just, um, struck me the other day. We were both down at the Charles Allen Abahat Memorial, uh, 60 years since he was killed in Hagley Park. And the defense of, of the youths was that, oh, he, he had propositioned them. Um, and I was kind of reflecting on that, [00:26:30] that really significant piece of law change that happened. Um, but also the fact that that was 60 years ago and all of these law changes have happened very much, almost in our lifetimes. Is there anything that you would say to Alan now, if you, if you have a chance to, to meet him? Because we live in such different worlds. I know. And I think about that, because it's funny you should say that actually, because at the event itself, I was trying to locate Alan in [00:27:00] my own life, you know, like, so who would he be? In my life, you know, in terms of age, cause what age was he when it happened? He was 30, 31 ish or something like that. I remember thinking so he was born in the sort of 1930s. So he's just slightly older than my parents. Um, but he's not, you know, but not my grandparents generation. Yeah, I think, I mean, far be it for me to have anything to say to him. He had to live his life, but I think, The [00:27:30] more we found out about Alan as we went through this process, the more I think he was actually quite political in his own way. Um, so my involvement in that case was that his great niece, um, came to see me. I knew her a little bit. And she came to see me when the expungement law passed, um, because she, um, wanted the conviction that he had previously to be expunged. And then it just sort of opened up all of this information about his case and how little his family knew. And as you recorded on the day, Dennis, [00:28:00] who was his nephew, talked about the fact that he hadn't been told and only found out years later what had actually happened to him. And I feel like the fact that Alan got the conviction as far as we know, it was because he went to the police station in Blenheim and said, you're arresting all these other. You better arrest me. And I suspect he was slightly better thought of in the community. He came from a good family. I'm doing excellent quote marks. Um, he came from a good family and, you know, [00:28:30] had a good job and so forth. And I think perhaps, you know, to me, that's a very political act at the time to then do that and then be sent. to prison, briefly, albeit. So I think, I'm not sure I've got a lot to tell Alan. I think he was being as political as he probably could be in his day and age. But equally, just the way in which those moments Wrecked people's lives. I'd love would love to be able to tell him and some other people there [00:29:00] is, you know So much has been achieved that that those sorts of moments and if they did occur now wouldn't necessarily be ruining people's lives Having said that as we heard on the day in Christchurch There is still people, you know, being lured to places and having terrible things happen to them. And so, you know, we probably also would want to say to him while it's still not perfect as well. And it's getting back to that whole vigilance thing, isn't it? Very much is, you know, and, and just sort of allowing, not allowing attitudes [00:29:30] in society to kind of turn. backwards like that. And, um, I mean, if I have to chart things in my life, you know, I grew up in the church. I mean, that was my life and in the Presbyterian church, which was a very mainstream church. It was conservative, you know, it had big problems about women becoming ministers and all those sorts of things. But I, it's the growth of the evangelical church that's probably in our lifetime. You know, being the most marked thing about Christianity.[00:30:00] Interestingly enough, you know, Brian Tamaki got 5, 000 people in 2004. He'd be lucky to get a couple of hundred when he's out here, which he regularly is. Um, so I think we've got to be a bit careful, but, but I think the, the crest of the wave of evangelical Christian movements is coming off and they've, you know, rightly too with, um, Aspire? No, what are they called? Um, you know, the, but anyway, the, you know, those big evangelical churches [00:30:30] are starting to. Starting to kind of come off the boil a little bit which you know is interesting in itself But the rump of them is clearly still there and we have to be very vigilant. I think there's a lot more Varies arise for the benefit of the tape arise. I think there's a lot more vocal opposition coming from Rainbow youth a lot of activism coming in because I you know, I think of say the Um, counter protest to Posey Parker here in Wellington, where 4, 000 people in Civic [00:31:00] Square. And this is one of the most interesting things, and it's one of my reflections on leaving politics actually, is that, and I can't tell because I wasn't here 30 but I feel like a very small vocal group can get more attention today, partly to do with social media. And partly to do with the media environment in general. And that it's very confusing for people sometimes to say, well, how big is that group? You know, and I think we kind of, you know, we know with the Posey Parker [00:31:30] stuff, that the group of TERFs that are there supporting that is actually minute compared to the public's overall view. And we saw that with the protests. And I think if you're the trans community, again, one of the reasons I talked about it in my, Valedictory speeches. I think when you're in the eye of the storm, rightly, it's very hard to make assessments of how big things are because it's hitting you. And if it's hitting you, it's hitting you, whether it's 2 percent of the [00:32:00] population or 20%. And we felt this during COVID, you know, like it could feel like everyone was against you. But then when people voted, it was 1, 2, 3, 4%. So I think, I think It's harder to distill all of that nowadays because one of the things that social media has done is allowed people to find their tribe a lot more easily and unfortunately, in this case, it's a tribe of people that you and I might not appreciate, but they have found each other and they themselves gain strength [00:32:30] from that, even if they're not What then about that kind of vexed issue of, um, for me it's not vexed, but, um, free speech. I mean, I mean, how do you, like, how do you deal with that? Yeah, I'm with you. I don't think it's that vexed to be honest. Um, I mean, people obviously have a right to express opinions and so on, but in society we always set boundaries. To rights or if you want to use slightly different language, we put responsibilities [00:33:00] around rights and we've always done there. And so therefore just being able to say any old thing is clearly not okay. And people know that. Uh, and so it's difficult to write into law. Well, that's one thing that's very challenging and we, you know, when we looked at hate speech legislation, it is, it is extremely challenging to write into law, but not impossible by any means. And so that's a kind of an unfinished thing that needs to be worked on. But equally the police, [00:33:30] you know, like I, the other day when, with the Brambo crossings were being padded over, the police said, well, it's a hate crime. Well, they didn't have any difficulty with going, that's what it is. So I think sometimes we. As a society kind of overcomplicate things. I mean, one issue that we do have is that, and I'm about to face this as I go into the university environment, is how we create spaces for discussion. And I do think that's become harder because of the more polarizing thing, you know, and [00:34:00] so you, I want people, this is not, you know, it's by chance I don't do this directly, but I want people to understand the views of the world around them. And that sometimes means having to hear it in order to understand it processes and work out what you do with it. Um, and I think that can be hard for people. And I think there's, there are issues more and more for people just how does that get managed. But, the answer to that is not a wholist, bolist, you can say any odd thing [00:34:30] you want to, because actually you've never been able to, and you shouldn't. This is also coming up in terms of kind of inclusivity in things like sport, and I think you were talking the other day about the inclusiveness in sports guidelines, and, Uh, how, how they are coming under attack now, is it? Yeah, I think it's a dreadful element of the New Zealand First National Party coalition agreement is that there is a review of that, of the guidelines we put in place to [00:35:00] for inclusive um, sporting organisations, um, with a view in their agreement to not funding sporting organizations that effectively adopt those guidelines. It's just the most ridiculous position comes from such a position of ignorance and misunderstanding and prejudice. We put those guidelines in place largely at the request of sporting organizations who were rightly saying, well, you know, we want to be inclusive, but we're not really sure how to do it. And this is a true [00:35:30] story. The Townsville Tennis Club in Australia, um, I wanted to create some guidelines like these because someone showed up, a trans person showed up, wanting to play tennis. And I'm like, what should we do? And so, that's what the guidelines are about. And we developed them exhaustively with groups like Rainbow Youth and others, um, to be able to say, well this is it. No one's being made to do anything with them, but the sports want them because they want to work out how to deal with them. And I [00:36:00] used it, I used the line in my valedictory speech that people who are raising issues about this don't care about sport. Um, and they're, you know, they're, as I said in the speech, warriors for safety against an imagined enemy. I mean, it's, it's so ridiculous. There is a distinction here in the elite sport. The rules of participation are governed largely by an international organisation, over which the government has almost no say, you know, and so the [00:36:30] International Swimming Federation decide. We, we, there's nothing really the New Zealand government can do about whether a trans person can compete in a particular category. Where we have more of a role is in community sport, because we fund that, and um, You know, it's, it's, it's more directly here in New Zealand. And so that appears to be what this group are now chasing down. And I just find that abhorrent, you know, I mean, I think participating in [00:37:00] recreation and sports so important. I've observed in the queer community, just how important it is for people. It's, it's one of those touch points in society where not everyone wants to do sport or recreation, but if you do, it's an amazing way to connect with your community. I remember seeing a documentary a little while back, um, about a trans person here in Wellington who played in a football team. And I think he identifies as a he, and he said on the, on the thing, if I tell my team that's going to be the first thing they know, [00:37:30] you know, I think he did end up telling them, but you know, like for me, it's just, it's such a basic fundamental level of letting people be who they are. If we just all let people be who they are, I think we'll be a lot better off. And I guess that's why it's so important for, um, people when they can, if they want to come out, like we had recently, you know, the first all black coming out as gay. Absolutely, and you need role models, and Campbell [00:38:00] Johnson, who did that, is an amazing guy, and deserves huge credit for it. Obviously. After he'd retired, you know, and so, but still leaning back into that, um, it will be a, it will still be a challenge because of the elite sport environment, particularly in rugby, which very macho kind of sport, um, will be still a challenge for an active player. to come out and talk about themselves. But there are plenty of those people [00:38:30] around, and it's probably only a matter of time in New Zealand it's happened internationally. I think of those moments, say when Campbell came out, and the kind of resonance of those moments, you know, it may be 10, 15, 20 years later that we will see the impact on people. Are there moments that you can think of in your own life that those kind of resonance moments that have happened a long time ago that I mean, the one that springs to mind is one [00:39:00] I've talked about a lot before is homosexual law reform because, you know, like that idea that maybe my life was going to be okay as a teenager. Like I, I had some very dark times as a teenager, as a lot of gay, um, queer people do. And just having people who I could look at and see and think, yeah, it's going to be all right. And the homosexual law reform was sort of part of that. It was like, okay, parliament's voted that this is okay. And this [00:39:30] is important. And then, you know, for me, I was interested in politics. So I, I noticed Chris Carter when he came in as an MP, you know, and I'm aware of how awful things were for him around here when he first came in. Um, and so I, you know, moments Like that are important. I've got other ones like, you know, um, uh, TJ, the all black, you know, being such a vocal critic of what Israel said and wearing rainbow laces and, you know, things like that in that sporting [00:40:00] context are just so, And, you know, just little by little us being way more comfortable with, with the way we talk about that. I remember as sports minister, um, you know, when the, in the White Ferns cricket team, when Amy Settlewhite and Leah Tahu got married and there was a whole, Um, you know, woman's day article. I think it was, you know, where, you know, suddenly, okay, so this is being celebrated. Um, Tom Daley, the work that he's done [00:40:30] as in sport around the Commonwealth and around the world. I think he's British diver. I think he's, I've got a couple of memories of things he did when he came out. Um, you know, that sort of stuff matters a lot. And of course you'll be making memories for other people because you love that. most highly ranked openly rainbow politician we've had in New Zealand. I mean, that's, that's amazing. Yeah, I guess. Um, yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I did [00:41:00] consciously do was as I moved through various roles, Um, finance minister, deputy prime minister, I would always continue to try to accept invitations to do things with the rainbow community because I really did think that mattered. And once a month, maybe even more often than that, I'd get a card or an email from often parents rather than the person themselves, just saying how much it It had meant to them that [00:41:30] I had said something or done something or they'd read a, read something about how I'd gone about my life. And I think, you know, we can all do that. All of us, whether you're a politician or not, you just live your life and you never know who's noticing, who's, who's seeing it, who's, who's being inspired by it. And yeah, I've got a group of. people who've kind of come through the Labour Party younger than me, a number of whom are in the rainbow communities.[00:42:00] And just knowing that I was there, I think helped them, you know, like it helped them think what I can do. And it often wasn't necessarily anything to do with rainbow issues. It was just the fact that I was there and I was doing it. And so, yeah, you know, if that's the impact that it has, then that's terrific. Yeah, I guess I was just actually reflecting back on what Georgina Beyer said that it was a bit of a challenge that she didn't want to be seen as a [00:42:30] transgender mayor or member of parliament. She wanted to be a good member of parliament. And she was both of those things. I think, by the way, that's a really important point. I mean, she's still talked about in Carderton as one of the better mayors that they ever had. And she was an effective member of parliament, albeit, as I said before, I think probably the door closed a a bit soon on her. Yeah, I, I, I just kept going with the things that I was here to do. And, you know, I didn't get into parliament specifically to drive a rainbow agenda, but [00:43:00] the rainbow agenda around fairness and equality squarely fits in my view with the Labour Party's philosophies. And so I'm, Very happy to be a part of those issues and help drive them and support them. But as you know, you know, as I went on finance minister, it's quite a big job. And so had to deal with a lot of different issues. But, um, I think this comes down to a really important aspect of what makes, I think, a good politician is having a really clear value set. [00:43:30] And, you know, I look around the building here and there are people whom I disagree enormously with, but I can also see the values that they are bringing. And then there are people who I find myself agreeing with more, but I'm not always a hundred percent sure about the values and that's the gray areas of life. Maybe as you get a little bit older that you, you can see that, but, but having that value seed for me meant that rainbow issues were always going to be a part of it, regardless of whether I was gay or not, I mean, I obviously can't. [00:44:00] envisaged not being, but I would hope that if I wasn't that the values I hold would still mean that I'd be supportive. And you weren't the only rainbow in the village. I mean, 2020 was, um, it was the queerest parliament in the world. It was such a great place. Um, so what was it like? It was really fun. Um, and that, and to be honest with you, if I'm really frank about it, I, because of my role, I wasn't so involved. So there was a big cross party. Rainbow [00:44:30] Network and Rainbow Labor was very, very active and strong. By then I was the finance minister, so I was trying to help out as I could, but to be frank, I didn't get that closely involved in it all. But you know, it, it certainly helped move things forward here. Um, You know, we've slightly slipped back on representation, and that's interesting. Um, I think a part of that is that the, so MMP is an amazing system for bringing more [00:45:00] diversity, but it also means you're very much at the whim of, of the list process. And so, because we lost a huge number of members, we lost a lot of, you know, then, although they're coming back, both Shannon and Glenn have come back as, as others have retired. But yeah, you just, you know, like I think vigilance, it's really important that, that we get in, you know, getting people into seats where they're, they're safe as well, I think is a good thing. Obviously you have to work hard to make a seat safe, but being the [00:45:30] MP kind of enabled my political career. So what advice would you give to up and coming rainbow politicians? Well, stick to your values. Um, to be perfectly frank, I would give them exactly the same advice I give everyone who wants to run for parliament. Be really clear about why you're running. And if it is because you want to be a champion of the rainbow community, great. Fantastic. But be, you know, come here with purpose. Um, and [00:46:00] that purpose needs to be based on a really strong value set that you have. Um, be empathetic to those around you. I mean, that is the core of being a good politician, I think, is to be empathetic to those around you. And commit yourself to the work that is to be done. Be that in your community, or be that here in Parliament. Um, and be aware that it's not an easy job. And, you know, like, the health warning, as I call it, which is that, is probably [00:46:30] something I've added in over the years, as people have asked me. You know, this job takes a huge toll on people's families. Massive. Because they don't sign up for the job, um, but they caught up in it. It is, uh, a more toxic environment than it was, and that is, we were discussing before, I think. Social media has a fair degree of role in that. Um, and you know, the other issues we've been talking about. So, you've [00:47:00] got to be aware of that and have strategies to manage it. But I will never discourage people from taking on this role, especially people from the rainbow community, because we need that kind of representation. You valedictory, Harvey Milk, And I'm wondering, what other rainbow heroes do you have? Yeah, I mean, Harvey is very much, um, that kind of political hero. And because my career has been in politics, I look at him, I look at Barney Frank, who [00:47:30] was the, um, first out U. S. Senator, um, out of Massachusetts. Really interesting character, Barney. Um, so, you know, he, I followed his career really, really closely here at home, politically. Georgie, Tim, Chris, Marion Street, you know, they were the people who were around me and I'd regard them as heroes in that kind of universe. I tend to be one of those people, this sounds a tiny bit cliched, but I tend to be one of those people who my heroes are [00:48:00] often not big public figures, you know, I think about You know, the people who established the AIDS Foundation in New Zealand, you know, um, I think about, you know, when I first got to Wellington, um, Douglas Jenkin and Kerry Price and people were running NZAF and I was, I was amazed by what they did and I volunteered and got involved because of what I saw them do, Bill Logan, you know, Bill and I have had all sorts of debates over the years about different issues, but I think there's an extraordinary [00:48:30] level of courage in what, you know, and what they all did that, that, that I think is great. Um, I think of some people in the trans community who, you know, have had terrible time, um, who fought. Marnie Mitchell is an absolute hero of mine. Marnie is an extraordinary person, um, who made intersex issues public when almost nobody else was doing that. And Marnie's head. [00:49:00] Huge ups and downs. Um, but such a hero of mine. I've heard other politicians after they've left parliament, um, talking about just the kind of like the, the, the, the come down that, that, you know, the phone, uh, is a lot quieter. The invites are a lot less. How you, I mean, one, is that happening to you and how you, how you coping with that? It's quite soon. So, I mean, at the moment I'm still in the phase where a lot of people are saying very nice things about me, which is lovely. Um, um, I, I [00:49:30] have to say, I think, you know, a lot of people talk about how hard it is, and I can already feel a little bit of that, um, Trying to work out how to kind of reposition myself in relation to politics. Um, you know, do I watch the news? Yes, I guess I do. I've always watched the news, you know, so I've always been interested in current events well before I was a politician. So, of course, I'm going to keep doing that, aren't I? But in doing so, of course, I, Watch and hear and see the things I've been [00:50:00] involved in. I don't want to be all over the people who now have the job here, but I've made clear I'm happy to help them if there's ways that I can do that. But at a kind of emotional level, I'm definitely just working my way through that. Um, I saw a counselor a while back and I remember she said to me that for every year someone is in a stressful role, you need about a month you. To bring yourself out of that. And I thought that's really interesting, you know, like I've been I was [00:50:30] here for 15 years as a politician, six years as a minister, and so probably somewhere in that range, you know, and you can't expect to click your fingers and everything to suddenly be different. I mean, I'm going to have a very big new job from the beginning of July, which I'll have to put a lot of focus on. But yeah, I definitely think I'm in the middle of that. And I, you know, I, I wouldn't be surprised if I have a lot of ups and downs over the next little while. I mean, even just in the last couple of weeks, I remember I woke up on The valedictory was on [00:51:00] Wednesday and I had my final kind of day on Friday and my mother was staying with us still. And, um, I remember waking up on the Saturday or Sunday, one of those days and feeling really kind of, yeah, you know, this is all great. And then even just a few days later, I was kind of feeling a little bit lower. And so I guess that's just how it'll be for a while. What do you want to be remembered for? I hate that question. Not from you. I mean, everybody asks that. [00:51:30] Oh, gosh. I'm not quite there in terms of, you know, I don't, I think it's grandiose to say a politician of any, you know, I mean, I've had 15 years on the political stage, 20 years around here. I think it's grandiose to talk about legacies and stuff. And ultimately other people write those things. What do I want to be remembered for? I want to be remembered as a person who stuck to my values. I want to be remembered as a person who worked hard. Because that's always meant a lot to me. It's a very [00:52:00] Presbyterian, Calvinist kind of upbringing thing. Um, I don't know, it pops into my head. I want to be remembered as somebody who was, um, Kind to people, you know, who was motivated. I was, I am motivated by trying to do good things for people. And so I'd like to be remembered that way, but ultimately you don't write it yourself. You know, even if you write a book or whatever, you don't, you still, ultimately, if anyone is ever writing about me or thinking about me in years to [00:52:30] come, it'll, it'll be colored by all kinds of things that I can't control. I apologize for that question. No, you don't have to. It was so obvious. You don't have to apologize for it. Everyone asks that. I know. But yeah, yeah. Um, so, um, okay, then my last question will be, um, so, um, a message, a message to you rainbow communities in terms of, um, achieving your dreams. Yeah, great. That's a really good question. I'm going to start with [00:53:00] John Jolliffe's words the other day. You know, I think there's a lot in what he said about being visible and vigilant. Um, if you want to achieve things, you've got to be out there. You've got to be doing things. Now, being out there doesn't mean everyone has to be holding the megaphone. Being out there is Being the person who records the history being out there is the person who makes sure that the person with the megaphone is looked after or being present. Um, [00:53:30] so, but, so it doesn't mean you have to shout from the rooftops, but it does mean you've gotta put forward your best self to be a part of what you do on the vigilance side. I just think that's where we are right now today, and I feel like. There's a very important element of that. Anyone who watches us politics, us current events, we'll see what could happen. And so we, we can't allow that. But my overall message is the one I, I know it's [00:54:00] corny, but it's the one I tried to leave in the speeches of hope, because we go right back to the start of this interview. If I think about my lifetime and the extraordinary progress that's being made, blood, sweat, tears, everything that went into it. You've got to be hopeful that we can keep doing that. And we can keep making progress and keep nudging forward and keep doing the right things that allow our communities to all thrive. And so I'm hopeful. And that's my main message [00:54:30] is keep hope alive. Keep thinking about what you can do on the weekend. I have, we had dinner with some friends and, um, Their son has just gone to Otago University and he was listening to his parents and me, you know, have our great memories of them. And at one point I stopped and I said to him, you need to be really careful of old people because we edit our memories and we, we focus [00:55:00] on, you know, the fun stories and all of that. The struggles is, is, is as important as the success. And there's an old American civil rights saying, you know, keep your eyes on the prize, keep your mind on the struggle. And maybe that's my advice.
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