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Hey, um, so this interview is more about, um, your relationship with Carmen and, um, I know that we mentioned it last time, but I was wondering, could you tell me again the story of how you and Carmen met? I first met her at the Kado Coffee Lounge and, um, Key Street in Auckland underneath the Great Northern Hotel. And I would say that would have been when I was 13, 13 or 14. [00:00:30] And she would. She was 10 years older than me. Exactly. So she was either, so she would have been 23 24 or something like that. So around that age and, um, she was dressed in a beautiful Cheong Sam and her own hair. Long was really long and hanging down. And she was really slim and really gorgeous. And I think I said last time that I followed her to the nightclub where she worked in Upper Queen Street, which doesn't exist now that street has been taken away. And Ray and Hasty had a [00:01:00] little strip club there, um, on the left hand side. And I used to go and I used to stand outside the door watching for the door to open and someone coming in or out or something to see if I could see her on stage. And in the end, she told the guy on the door that I could that he could let me in, and I would that I wasn't going to be any problem. You know, I could just sit in the back of the club and watch, you know, So and that was my first introduction into nightclubs, Really? And then I never saw Carmen again [00:01:30] until I would say, um 67 68 something like that 68 69 something around that time. Um, because 1967 I was a And that's when I turned 21 and the dollar came in. And when I came back from near Christmas, my [00:02:00] friend Chrissie gave me a job in the sun in the, um Powder. And then the Sorrento was still going at that time, and I was working part time for Linda Corman at the Sorrento, and then her brother wanted to sell, and she couldn't afford both the lot. So she asked Chrissy to go halves with her and they went in halves, and that's and it was when I was working at the Sunset Strip that Carmen used to come [00:02:30] in and she already had the building in Vivian Street. She'd already rented it or leased it. And she had Shelley and Belinda Lee were living were boarding with her in the place, and she was cracking it to, um, get the money to deck it all out inside. And so I would say it was probably 68 around 68. 69 that she opened her club, Uh, her her coffee lounge. About 68. I think it was. [00:03:00] And, um, it would have been 70 71. I was working for her because I've got that. As I said, I've got a photo, and how I know is because the only time I ever dyed my hair was when I was working there. I dyed my hair burgundy, and I've got a photo of me there and my hair is dark. And so it's about, and my mother was still alive. I still had burgundy hair when she [00:03:30] died, beginning at 72 so it's about 70 71. I was working for her as a waitress at the Coffee Lounge and not the coffee lounge. Um, at the, uh, it was called the balcony. We called it, but it was called La Balcon, but everyone called it the balcony. Um, and I was a waitress there for her and at one part of it, um, a lot of the girls were going to work in, um, [00:04:00] Hong Kong at PLAYGIRLS. And so a lot of them were going over there to work. And so she asked she was at me and at me if I would go on stage. So I went on stage for about a month and did, um, gold finger. Um, and I still got the little I've still got the the, um, the advert in the paper from the paper in my album, um, Donna de Melo. Um and and and that's when I changed. My name was because of Carmen, because [00:04:30] she said, um, if I put Darryl in the phone in in the paper, she said, I'll have every Maori in town here wanting to get in for nothing to come and see you. She said, So you'll have to change your name. And I thought, Oh, what am I change my name to? So she said, Well, I'll give you to do tomorrow because the ad's got to be in. So I decided I liked I always liked that name, and it was because I used the perfume taboo, which was quite an expensive perfume in those days. And, um, so I used [00:05:00] that name. And, um, De Milo came from an ex boyfriend. Um, he he was, um he was Maori Italian, and that's what's his surname. And it had two l's in it, but I took the one L out because demilo the Venus de Milo statue. I always loved that. And anyway, my girlfriend said to me, Well, why don't you use the, you know, the boyfriend's name? And I said, Um, oh, no, I don't really like me [00:05:30] And she said, Well, use de melo. You love Venice De Milo Use de Milo. So that's how it became my name. And, um, I work for her, I would say for probably a couple of years. I worked for Carmen and um became quite friendly with her, you know, used to go down sometimes during the day and meet her at the coffee lounge. I wasn't a great frequenter of the coffee lounge because we both sort of worked, you know, I didn't actually go there [00:06:00] after work. I used to go to the old sunset because that's where I had knocked around and worked myself, you know? And, um and that was more my style of person down there. I mean, um, at her coffee lounge, it was all the, um what could you say? The theatre type people. People coming from the theatre that had been near as cus, you know, customers of the patrons of the theatre. Um, gay guys, Um, and it really wasn't my scene. [00:06:30] And though I took my mother there two or three times and she absolutely loved it, she said it was the most fabulous place she'd ever been in her life. Plus the strip, the the the, um, nightclub. And it wasn't actually a strip club. It was more of a, um what would you call it? Well, it was a nightclub. You had. You had people that did all different kinds of acts. It just wasn't stripping. You know what I mean? It was Yeah, it was. She was amazed by it. Or she just thought that the coffee lounge she'd never seen anything so fabulous in her whole life because [00:07:00] it was wonderfully decked out, You know, she had stuffed animals, all sorts of things. Piano. Um, she had shawls and everything. And fans and beautiful pictures and ornaments. It was a really welcoming, loving place to go to. And she was quite She was a good boss to work for Carmen. I mean, um, people ripped her off blind. A lot of the girls ripped her off blind. It was a well known fact. You know, um, I never did because I was brought up by my mother. You don't shit in your own [00:07:30] nest, you know, you. And as I said, I learned from my experience by not going to work once because I got drunk and went on board a ship, and I never had a job the next day. So you learn very quick these things and and it it didn't interest me because I made a fortune in tips, because I I've always had a way with people, So I've made money. I've made more than my wages every night in tips, waitressing, and, uh, you know, whereas the other girls would hide around the corner as if it was taking a bit long to get your toasted [00:08:00] sandwich or something, I wouldn't. I'd go up and say, Would you like another coffee? You know, in the house or something. So whereas they'd hide around the corner and they didn't really know what to do, you know? So they say, How do you make so many tips? I said, because I just be nice and, you know, nine times out of 10, they wouldn't want a coffee. They just wanted to know what was going on. And I used to just make up a little story like, Oh, the the one of the sandwich machines is broken down. So it's taking a bit longer or something like that. Little did they know we only had two sandwich machines, [00:08:30] you know, and the place would be packed, you know. And, uh, we did have We did have meals there for a while as well in the beginning, but that wasn't didn't seem to be viable in the end. So it was toasted sandwiches and coffee and things like that. And, um, she, you know, I mean, I know some of the girls used to say Oh, say it was three Cokes. Oh, well, there's three Cokes, two for Carmen and one for me, you know, and and then it'd be half of it. And two cakes for me and one for Carmen. [00:09:00] You know, Carmen, they were terrible. She knew what was going on, I think. And and I mean, that's how lovely she was. She was a fabulous person. And as I think I said, I only ever heard her swear raise her voice and swear once in her life really lose her temper and swear once. And that was because, um, Belinda and, um, Tiffany Jones were being evil. And there's Carmen at the window, peeping through the curtain because across the road from where Carmen's Coffee [00:09:30] Lounge was was some factories and that and the guys used to go and sit outside and eat their lunch and that, you know, sit out in the sun on the footpath, and she was peeping through the curtain, you know, no clothes on and probably no teeth. And, you know, and they came along up beside her and went whoop and whipped the curtains open. And she's ah, and you fucking love. And that's the only time I'd ever heard of her really swearing or going Really getting angry. Um, and and she never usually used foul language. Or [00:10:00] she had a very good sense of humour. Very dry wit, like most libres. Um, she, um I can remember once, Um, this is later. She was in Sydney, and I lived in Melbourne but often used to go to Sydney. And when I went to Sydney, I went to visit her. You know, she would always want to take you out for something to eat. And it was always her shout. It was never you shout her. Anyway, this one time, I went up with some friends of mine, a friend of mine, Natalie, and we met another friend of ours in Sydney. Jason and we went and picked [00:10:30] her up and took her to, um, Fox Studios. You know, the film studios there, and and, uh, Warner Brothers and that that's up there in Sydney. And we took her out for lunch and we were paying for it. And we're sitting there, and we were talking about She was talking because Natalie had her nephew there, So we had to be She had to be careful and she was talking about being in jail but not saying it. So he knew and she said, Oh, did you ever have any of those boys stick their through the pe pole? And I said, Oh, yes. And I used to whack [00:11:00] it with my knife and she said, Oh, I used to say, Oh, how disgusting I couldn't about. And we would, you know, because of the pause that we were already either had something in our mouths or were drinking. And we just about spurted it all out over the table. It was just, you know, Oh, I couldn't have disgusting, you know? And then there was this long poisoning belt. So that was her kind of wit. You know, She was very, [00:11:30] very dry, very dry, very clever. And, um, I used to often see her in Sydney, and she can't used to come down and sometimes stay with me in in Melbourne when she was going to the, uh, Genis Foria clinic. And, um, she, um they were very mean to her. Really, because she was so, um was like me. They didn't pass me because I was tall and they didn't want to pass her because she was, um, a little bit over the top, being exotic [00:12:00] looking, you know? And and I mean, gosh, you know, there's, uh there's the straight people out there that dress over the top. I mean you, but this is the way they thought. And, um, it wasn't till Oh, not long before I came home. So about 12, 13 years ago that they they first of all, they said they lost her paper. They told her she had to go away and lose weight. So she had her stomach stapled in Sydney and nearly died. She lost so much weight, she nearly died. They had to reverse [00:12:30] it because she nearly it nearly killed her. She couldn't didn't wanna eat, which just wasn't like car. And, you know, she loved to eat loved cakes. Anyway, she revered. And then they said they lost her papers. This is the gender. Really? No. I mean, this is how kind she was. She should have sued them. I told her that. And then years later, like we we're talking like 20 years later, they all of a sudden they get in touch with her and say to her, Oh, we found your papers. Would you like to come down [00:13:00] and see us? So she went, came down all excited and and you know, I mean, she was over 60. Then I turned 50 she had been at my 50 I went to her 16, and it was after that. So she was over 60. Anyway, she got the days muddled up she had while she was there. She had to see two or three other the doctors on the board and her was She Mu mucked up seeing Trudy Kennedy and went to see Trudy Kennedy the day a day late. And I took [00:13:30] her and dropped her off and thought that she'd be there at least an hour and took off for an hour. Left her in South Yarra. And when I came back there, she was standing by the fence looking quite flustered, and I said, Oh, what's the matter? And she said, Oh, she said, Well, when I went in, she said she told, met me at the door and said to me, and and she used to have it in her. She had, like, a mock Tudor house. This, um, this psych psychologist and and She used to have the rooms in her in her home and she said, Well, she took me in the front door to the foyer where they used to have the desk, you [00:14:00] know? And she said, and she said, Oh, you're you're I'm just going out You were meant to be here yesterday anyway, where's your card? And that's your, um, Medicare card. And of course, it costs like three or $400 just to see you, you know, and the government pays it. She swiped it through and she said, Oh, we're looking at at your papers and, um discussing it with the other doctors She said, We we you've put the weight on again and came and said, Well, it's 20 years and I nearly died and she said, And, um, there's not much skin there. [00:14:30] It shrunk away to nothing, she said. Uh, we can give you a faux vagina for $3000 or something like two or $3000. And she said, What do you mean, a faux vagina? And she said, Well, it's a vagina, but it's there's no there's no vaginal passage. It'll just look like one. She and cut him and said, Oh, no, I'm not paying $3000 just for that, she said. I've gone this long in life. I might as well just stay the way I am. So, uh and I I was when I got back, she was standing in the sun poor thing and [00:15:00] been standing there probably for three quarters of an hour or half an hour, and she was quite a bit stressed out. And I said, You know, come and really you you should sue them I said, because that's really bad. That's real bad to do that to you. I said, All this time you've waited and then they call you back and give you this hope and then tell you're going to give you a fax vagina. Why? Why can't they do the real thing? You know, if you're willing to to you know, to and and she said, Oh no, I don't want to do that It might ruin it for the other girls And that's what we [00:15:30] always used to think. We'd never say anything to these doctors that used us as guinea pigs, and many of us were used as guinea pigs for boobs and everything. We never said another word. If they even if they absolutely, you know, botched us up is because we didn't want to stuff it up for for another girl coming along. You always thought about your your sisters that were coming along. And what would happen if you didn't? And everything's shut down and no one gets in and out, you know? So it was really quite sad. Um, was it always a dream of Commons to [00:16:00] to have the full change? Yes, it was. I mean, she made light of it in the end, because you do you you you, um you you just get on with it, You know what I mean? But she often says if you listen to any of her things, the only thing she regrets is that she didn't go to Egypt to have her sex change. And you know, when she could have gone and she should have gone, you know, And she didn't. That's her only regret. It was because she never got it, you see? And she thought she should get it in Australia for nothing. [00:16:30] But of course, you know, as it was, they wanted two or $3000 out of I can't remember it was two or three just to make a very vagina, you know? And, um but that was Yeah, that was her dream. She did wish that she had it. And, um, I wasn't I wouldn't say that. I was a, um, a bosom buddy of his, Um and really, I don't know that Carmen had bosom buddies just quietly. Carmen was a very private person. [00:17:00] Carmen did not ever have a live in lover that I know of. And all the years I knew her, and I asked her once and she said, No, I think she did once when she was still addressed as a male. But she said that No, she didn't want to spend the whole night with someone. She wanted her privacy. She liked to be on her own, you know. And so consequently, she never, ever had, uh, she had [00:17:30] lots of lots of boyfriends, right up until before she died. She had guys that still used to come and visit her and that, especially the Italian and Greek guys and Arab guys. They loved her, you know, And, um, she she was a very popular, but yeah, she never, ever, never, ever had a live in lover. Yeah, and she did dabble in my in the early days in Black Magic. I know that when she had the coffee bar at the top of the stairs, in the corner was a coffin with a skeleton [00:18:00] in it. And sometimes she used to sleep in the coffin. Yeah, she did. She practised black magic quite a bit. And then as she got older, she reverted back to Christianity in S in Sydney. She got involved, she got involved with in Sydney and she got involved with the, um, New Zealand, Um, like a church for New Zealand people to go. And there's a part of the cemetery in one of the cemeteries up there. Where she's [00:18:30] buried is part of it, like a New Zealand cemetery, you know, And that's why she wanted to stay there. She didn't want to come home. She wanted to stay in Sydney and be buried in Sydney because they did go there to try and bring her back. But it was her wishes to stay in Sydney, and she's buried in Sydney and I forget her. She's just crossed the road from Ricky May or someone like that. Someone quite famous. You're not far from anyway, which is quite lovely, really. Um, and, um, whenever she came home, [00:19:00] when I came home to whenever she came to Melbourne, I always used to be around, pick her up, and then, uh, and as I say, she was rather private, so she never only ever once stayed with me. Um, she always usually stayed in a hotel because, as I said, you know, she liked to do her own thing. And, um, when I came home to live in New Zealand back to New Zealand, I always used to go and pick her up when she was because they were always flying her back to open something or do something they haven't got her. Now, I don't know what they're gonna do when [00:19:30] they want to open things in Wellington because it was always or a nightclub in Auckland or something. They'd always get car and as a draw card, you know, and, um, often she would come and stay. I pick her up from the airport or take take her to the airport, and if they supplied a hotel, Um, you know, one time when she came back for the black and white ball, my friend and I, um it was three of us. Four of us put it on. And it was to put out Chrissy's name for the we took or trust. [00:20:00] And, uh, she came back and she stayed with Gypsy who's now passed on to who who used to work for her at the coffee lounge and, uh, the balcony. And I mean that they were all still going when I left and went to Australia. You know, she didn't leave until the early eighties to go back to Sydney, and and she was wanted to see for a tax evasion because all the money that had gone through the place and she she hadn't paid tax, you see? And, um, [00:20:30] apparently I heard later that it was, uh, that the GA a guy had helped her set it up because it was sort of a a tax dodge for him, Sort of, you know, but, um, yeah, I wasn't here when it closed down, but I've got a photo of her, um, with um, Chrissy and, um, another lady that owned the Sunset Strip. You know, she had a farewell at, uh, Saint James. Is it in [00:21:00] street there? I think it's in ST James or the Majestic. One of them. She had her farewell, and Chrissie put it all on for her when she went back to and that was about 1982. I think she went back to Sydney to live, But she was a very loving, you know, People would always talk about her about her being a prostitute and being this and being that. But you couldn't meet a kinder, more loving, generous person. You know, she always would, [00:21:30] Would help, would help. You would try to help you. You know, I used to go and see her in Sydney. She was. And if I didn't go out with her, well, she was trying to stuff money down my bra, You know, for me to buy a coffee and a sandwich or was gone on the way home, You know, driving back, which is like eight hours, you know, to drive back and, um, from Sydney to Melbourne. And, um, it was, as I said, it was only a couple of times I ever could trick her into shouting her out because I I arrive and she'd say, Pick me up or meet me at such and such a restaurant. It's [00:22:00] already ordered and paid for. You know, she'd already paid for whatever you know. So she was very, very kind, very, very much loved. And we we missed her very dearly. You know, we don't ever a to her anymore. She now she's gone. Um, it's the end of the era. Now she's gone. She really is the end of that era, you know, of the nightclubs and coffee bars. And and, um and and And people like her and Chrissy were the [00:22:30] people that gave all of us girls a job because, as I said, you know, last time I spoke to you, if you had a beetle haircut and you wore the modern clothes, you're a if you're a guy. And if you were a girl and DRI dressed like you know, the oh, she was a slut. You know, you just you just weren't accepted, just wasn't accepted. And those girls were the ones that gave us all a chance, you know, gave us a job. Um, she always dressed beautifully in the days of the coffee bar [00:23:00] and everything. She always had lovely clothes, lovely jewellery. And, um, she paid us well, paid us better than most other people did. Um and, uh, yeah, she was She was a great person to work. And I admired her because she wasn't a liar or a thief. You know what I mean? I mean, near the end, I think she got a little bit, um, wound up in her own legend because she used to say she was the first here in in Wellington, but she wasn't. [00:23:30] Chrissy was here before her. But Chrissy, as I said, wasn't a person that sought out. Um um, what would you say? Um, self promotion where Cameron was a great self promote. I mean, I can remember her saying to me once, Donna, don't tell the press I'm coming home when you come to pick me up. Please don't tell the priest, All right? I won't say a word, and I'd arrive to pick her up, and the place would be and the airport would be full of pressers and she'd be all lipsticked up it. [00:24:00] And I said to her one day when I was had her in the van and I was taking her to the hotel. I said, I know you. I know what you're up to. You ring up and go. Do you know that Trevor Roper is coming back? She said all spru I sprang, girl. So she'd already done it herself. No wonder she was saying, Don't say anything because she'd already done it the best self promoter [00:24:30] around and good on her and got her lots of trips back home and everything, you know, and and, I mean, she was very well respected. I mean by, um, the same as Chrissie. They They were people that can move across all genres of people, you know, They knew politicians they knew and ladies and lords and they knew prostitutes and ship malls and lesbians and and the street people, you know, like they they still had time for them. Like her. And Chrissy [00:25:00] always let in the street people, You know that, like, you know, you'd have the bag lady or something, you know, And I could remember, you know, um, they let she let her in, and you go down the back there, go down around the corner, the idea and we'll fix up with the same. And we say to her, Oh, why do you let her in? Well, there might be a day when it will be only her toasted sandwich and cup of coffee that will get me. You know, we used to go along afterwards and spray the seat with Glenn 21. And but, you know, she and Chrissy was the same [00:25:30] as that. They never turned people. They never forgot where where we all came from. In the beginning, you know? So and and they traversed all genres of people. And it was, um It was an absolute pleasure to know her, actually, because as I said, she wasn't a thief. She wasn't a liar. Um, she was a really lovely, genuine person, a person that that had a real heart, you know, and would never see anybody struggle [00:26:00] or especially sisters, you know, Or gay people that went for everybody, but especially her own. You know, she would make sure they were all right. I mean, you know, it was nothing for her to be in Sydney in the soup kitchen, dishing out cordial or soup or whatever. You know, with all her jewels and everything. She she volunteered her time for lots of things like that. You know, she was never too proud to do anything like that. Um, and she came from a really loving family that loved [00:26:30] her. And, you know, she wasn't ostracised by her family or anything. They really cared about her. She had she loved her mother very dearly. And her, uh, her sister, um, that still lives in. They were very close to, um And what else? Anything else you want to know? Um, and I know that she, um I can tell you that I know that she, um she first went to Sydney in the fifties, the late fifties and was working there. [00:27:00] And, um, she used to do an act with snakes and things and carpet snakes, and she used to keep them in baskets, you know, and, um and I'm not sure whether it was on the stage, but I know that I'm not sure if it was in the clubs, but I know that she for private dudes, anyway, she used to do the wig at the very end. And people were just absolutely flabbergasted, you know? And I mean, and that was when she was quite [00:27:30] slim and gorgeous, you know? And that's when she just finished in Sydney when she came back, as I say 1961 62 or something. And then she went back to Sydney and then she was back, came back again, you see? And it was in Auckland, I think in 1966 I think it was 66 or 67 that that the police tried to have her up for, um, being in disguise sort of thing because she was caught in a in [00:28:00] A that they stopped. She was in a car with a guy that was taking her home. I'm probably going to crack it with her. But anyway, he was taking her home, and the police tried to, um, have her up for yeah, for impersonation and all. And she took it to court and a guy stood up in court and said, Look, I was only driving her home, you know, from work La la, la. And the judge said that there is no law and and I we already knew this, but that there is no law against dressing [00:28:30] in the opposite sex as clothes, unless to do it with a Felonious intent, Uh, example blacken face or something like that. You see? So so that that it was thrown out of court, which made it much easier for the girls in Auckland because they were very heavy in Auckland. They were They were heavy here, but they were even heavier in Auckland. Really? They really were pretty heavy. And, um and then and then she came to Wellington. I mean, there's not a lot I can tell you. I know that she was, [00:29:00] um, quite well fed in Australia. She was very well respected, just like she was respected here. Um, she was always in the, um, Mardi Gras on the float. They always had a float around Carmen with their breasts hanging out. Um, and they inducted her not once, but twice. I think into the Hall of Fame, and and she was like a, um I I've got some of their cards, and it has on all the things that she [00:29:30] that they they bestowed upon her. They loved her a lot because she did a lot of con condom, you know, with the AIDS foundation and all that. Handing out condoms and giving her and and then Also, she was, um, for quite a while. She was a, um, a receptionist in a brothel. You know, she used to reception for the girls. Um, until it got a bit hot and some and someone said, Oh, you better be [00:30:00] careful. You might lose your flat and your pension. So she stopped doing that because, you know, someone sort of gave her that hint. I think that, you know, she might get had up for working as well as being on the, you know, I mean, working. I mean, you know, just to make ends meet, Really. You know, probably sat there all day for 80 bucks or something, but it's 80 bucks, you know what I mean? And then from there, she progressed to being the, um They had a where she lived, um, the block of flats at a community [00:30:30] hall. And she was the caretaker of the community hall and look after it and clean it and make cups of tea and all that just in her element and I, and also cleaning the the stairs and that. And I think that's how she broke her hip. She fell down the stairs cleaning the stairs I think. Dana, can I just take you way, way, way back to when you were 13. And when you [00:31:00] first saw Carmen on stage, can you recall what you thought? Was this the first time you had ever seen somebody like car? Um, what do I think? How fabulous she was. You know, cause, um um I'm trying to think what she did that she I think she stripped down to Yes, it was a G string. And, um, [00:31:30] a bit of if I remember rightly, because in those days, you weren't allowed to go without a G string unless you wore a me a merkin. And that came in later, I think. Which was like a piece. It was shaped like a um it was a a clip on, um, G string with no straps. And it had hair on it. It was a fake, like a fake vagina. Really? But it [00:32:00] was all here, if you know what I mean. That was what they called a and it was made of wine. It sort of clipped on somehow. I don't know, girls often wore that, but if I remember rightly in those days, you couldn't take your G string or your bra off. I don't think that came. That came a bit later. And then it was art Rama, and you could stand in the nude. As long as you didn't move, the lights would go off and the girls would go all around the different positions and then light going [00:32:30] on. And you had to stand perfectly still because you weren't allowed to move. If you moved, you could be arrested. Um, And then, of course, things change, but yeah, seeing her for the first time, Um, it was just amazing. You know? I just couldn't believe it. She was stunning on stage. And as I say, she was in her prime. Then she was in her twenties, you know, and looked absolutely amazing. And it was still slim and stunning. Um and yeah, that would be the first time I had ever seen, um, a queen on [00:33:00] stage. Yeah. I had been in the clubs and seen girls on stage, but I'd never seen Yeah, uh, one of us on stage at all. Yeah. II, I I've seen girls sort of do it in a party strip down to nothing in a party or something. you know, just with the Met, with the sailors and things. But, um, not not not like that, you know, on a beautiful on a stage with beautiful costumes and backdrops and everything you know. [00:33:30] And she mined first and then did her number, you know, and, um, I just can't remember what the number was, but, I mean, she was absolutely fabulous. Can you describe for me what the balcony was like? What did it look like? What was inside it? The balcony was all done out with the, um I've got a piece of it somewhere at home. Um, she had Egyptian pain, had Egyptian like Sphinx and all those sort of things all painted inside was very [00:34:00] quite quite opulent. And so it was a very tasteful nightclub. Beautiful, big. A really big stage with a long catwalk that came right down in amongst the customers, the first of its kind. Like that here in in New Zealand. Really? She really designed it with a fabulous long catwalk that went right down and it had tables right up the side of it. You see, so and around the front of it, so that when the girl came down. The tables were right beside the like. There's there's the catwalk. There's the tables right [00:34:30] up against the catwalk, you know? So the the people were really And it wasn't just guys that came. It was couples. It was couples that used to come to the nightclub. You know, it wasn't just men or men on their own, like a lot of the sleazy nightclubs. You know, you go to that what you hear about in the old days, you know, strip clubs and the and the picture theatres that they had later on In times where girls did strips between movies and things, this was was classy. It was done with class, you know, and [00:35:00] you all had to dress nicely when you waitressed. You all had to be groomed nicely and everything and and, um yeah, and it was It was It was beautifully done. Red table cloths with, um, stainless steel, um, sugar bowls with the lids on them and had little racks on each table. It looked like an umbrella with upside down, you know, with the handle up. And and they were little spikes coming [00:35:30] out without the umbrella part without the material and we used to put all that used to fold your, um um serves up and fit them on and and fold them so that they were little little points that they go in and sit inside the umbrellas. You know, um, on every table they were black and, um, sugar bowls on every table. And, um, yeah, it was very nice. It was very nicely done out. What kind of atmosphere? In terms of, like, [00:36:00] kind of lighting and mood. Um, typical nightclub, low lighting, Um, mood lighting, mood, mood, music and things like that, You know, Not not. Um, whereas, you know, um, Darrel Manuel would have blasting out the stripper as the runner all the time coming out. And it was out on Cuba Street every night. You could hear that on the corner. It was coming blasting out in between shows. You know, um, hers was more, [00:36:30] um, more jazzy. Mood music. She used to play in between shows and things like that. Um, yeah, whereas his was really burlesque, his was more of a club and more more of a and and specialty acts like the fire act and, uh, paint acts and paint was the girl would, um, paint herself all over with all different coloured paints, and the lights would go off and they'd be all, um, they'd all be What do you call it? Uh, [00:37:00] like fluo in the light. You know, that would all come up with the with the, um what do you call the light? The blue light they use, um um the strobe light. And that brings out different colours. You know, if you've got paints that have got stuff in them that, you know, oranges and the greens and the all these colours and the girl would paint herself all over, and then they turn the lights off, you know, and, um and every girl had a really a real class act to do, you [00:37:30] know, like one girl, um, Ray, when she used to have this number where she had on, um after she took off a beautiful gown and everything she'd have on this she had on this black bikini and it had two hands on the bum on the cheeks and two hands on the on the bra. And and then they turn the strobe light on, and all you'd see were these white hands and she'd jiggle her, um, breasts. And it looked like he was rubbing her breast, and then she'd wiggle her ass. It was like he was playing [00:38:00] with her arse. You know, uh, and you know, another one was Belinda Lee used to do an, um, quiet village. She used to do a number inside a like a cage, like a like a a girl. That's with a with a fur draped around her, you know, like a silver fox draped on her. And like like a girl looking all rough and sort of, um, you know, and that she was like, girl had been brought up with wolves or something like that. That was in intimating another one was, um uh, [00:38:30] Belinda Lee would, um, strip out of a, um, a gorilla costume, which was just amazing. This gorilla costume was came from Hong Kong, was just amazing. And she'd come through and they'd play this music and and she'd make grunting noise on it, Walk around like a like a gorilla. People actually thought it was a gorilla. They were a bit scared of it, and then I I can remember the very first time I ever saw it done [00:39:00] was in Auckland. She did it in Auckland, and and I remember the to climb up the pole and everything. And I remember when she she go up to the stage and she'd turn back on, she'd take off the head and you'd hear people go tap and then undo the costume. And she'd step out in a bikini or she'd have on is a bikini one clip in her hair like that and pull it out. And the hair would just fall down her back and she'd be in these high plastic, clear, plastic high heel mules, you know, and just step [00:39:30] out of this. And people would just couldn't believe that this beautiful looking girl and she was she had a fabulous body. Belinda Lee would just step out of this, um, and turn around. And there's this beautiful girl big breast standing there, you know, looking absolutely glamorous. They couldn't believe it because it really looked like a real gorilla. It was, You know, people were quite frightened of it. It was quite amazing. And she Yes, she had all kinds of different acts. They were all different, all entertaining, you know. And she had lots of, [00:40:00] um, what we call production numbers. She opened with a production number. Like for six months. They might have. I'm not sure if it was three months or six months, they'd have a show, and it would have Maybe, um, having a heat wave would be the opening. You know, we're having a heat wave, and all the girls would be in this in, in, in, in, um, lovely costumes. You know, um, all matching and all dancing, and then you'd have another production in the middle, and then you'd have another production at the [00:40:30] end. And in between would be the spot up. Girls would do their spot numbers, but what we called spots, which was individual acts, you know, And, um but she Yeah, she always had really good shows on very good shows. Um, and you performed as well? Only for a month. I didn't like it. It wasn't wasn't my kind of thing. I don't know what it is about me. Um, you know, I worked as a prostitute and everything, but I have had maybe because I was an only child, I had great difficulty in undressing [00:41:00] in front of somebody that I didn't really know. Um I didn't mind the miming. I didn't mind any of it. I just hated having to sexily stand there and get people to take my clothes off me. And I mean, they'd be shaken. Luckily, I didn't mind walking out in a bikini or or a AAA G string and a and a sand dreamer. I didn't mind any of that. It was just having to do the sexy sort of thing and get someone to undress you. I just couldn't [00:41:30] wait to get my gear off and stand there. Hope put my hand up, ready for the music to stop. You know, you'd stand at the back post with one hand on your hip and put your arm up. And that was a That was the sort of that gave Rosa, who just died last year, um, gave gave her a signal that you have finished your act, you know, finished your act so she would turn the turn the music down, but, um, yeah, I didn't really like I didn't like I didn't like the camaraderie behind stage. It was, um [00:42:00] Well, let's face it to be on stage, you have to be rather want to be the centre of attention. You you have to be pretty, um, up yourself in lots of ways. And I really wasn't that, um and I really didn't want to be the centre of attention. It just happens that I'm tall, that I have to be the centre of attention, whether I liked it or not. But I actually didn't and I didn't like the way the girls were sort of bitchy to one another behind. You [00:42:30] know, if if they could if they what? We what we used to call sabotage. If you could sabotage somebody else's act, they would. It was about survival of the fittest. I suppose in those days was about who was the best and and and and how good you were. Whether you got a good whether you got good wages, whether you stay whether your job was safe. I suppose it was all to do with that. I didn't like it. I couldn't wait to get dressed and get back out and be a waitress. I never stayed behind stage. I went out and was a waitress in between acts. Um, [00:43:00] yeah, I didn't like it, and I only did that for, as I say for a month, And I've only ever, ever performed once since. And that was for the, um Who They had it here in Wellington. And we we had it at, um they had, um, something at te papa on. So at least I can say, Well, I did it once on the stage at on on on te papa in the on, You know, I mean, um, [00:43:30] what's the names? Wanted me to go this time up to the You know, when you're gonna perform. I said no, I'm not. I'm not going. I said I'm not. I'll go, but I won't perform. I said, That's not what I am. It's not who I am. You got it once. And it was only because you wanted me as a diva and asked me to do one number and out of respect for you, this is, uh, a And then I said, out of respect for you, I've done it the once only and I enjoyed it. But I wouldn't do it again. Not interested. It's [00:44:00] not me. Even though deep down, I would love to have been a showgirl, not a stripper, a showgirl in Vegas you know, with the with the with the backpack of feathers and the great big headdress. And you know all the diamonte hang off and just strut around. Yeah, that that I could do No problem. Could have would have done I'd love to have been Yeah. Um, actually, my my dream was to be a Blue Bell because they were all girls over 6 ft. And, um, that's the kind [00:44:30] of thing I would have liked to have done and not be a stripper or AM or or any of that I'd like to have been a showgirl. Um, so yeah, and we didn't really have that sort of thing. So, you know, if you were a show girl, you had to do a number as well. So you know, So I only ever did spots I was never in a, um I was never in. Um, I only did the one spot on each show, and that was, um, Goldfinger. And I used to do it out of a gold mesh. [00:45:00] Do the mime, you know, like a web. And then, yeah, stripped to it. But, um, I only did it because she begged me to, because she was short of staff because at the time she had, um Belinda Lee, Um Nicole Deval Carol de Winter and maybe even Tiffany. They were all in. They were all in Hong Kong. The main girls were all in Hong Kong working for playgirls. Um, because, you know, um, we used to [00:45:30] have sailors from all around the world come in. And they said that New Zealand had the best drags they'd ever seen in their lives. Because a lot of Maori girls, you see, and they're very uns spring all those Maori girls, and they just couldn't believe all the girls and how glamorous we were. You know, they said Sydney. Yeah, you go to lay girls and you see it and that sort of thing. But, you know, for so many girls in one place, Wellington was the place because everybody came to Wellington. [00:46:00] We used to call it the Queen City, not Auckland. We were the Queen City. And, you know, lady, we used to say we used to say, You know, lady, come when the word tranny came out was they'd say, Oh, yeah, You come down Wellington with your with your tranny wheels, you know, learn you. The trainee was and learned to be a trainee and then disperse around New Zealand and they did most. You'd see that most girls came to to Wellington. Even the girls from Auckland all came to Wellington and lived for a for usually [00:46:30] for quite a while, you know, because it was easier down here than it was in Auckland at that time. Was there a distinction between a drag performer and transgender person? Whereas like nowadays, you know, there there was quite a distinction between somebody doing dragons. I'll tell you now, Carmen's they didn't no one knew who was who. If Carmen's was never advertised as a drag show ever. It was a cabaret. People [00:47:00] got out that there were queens that worked there, but no one ever knew who it was. And it was so funny being a waitress because I used to hear it and they go and there was one girl we had working there. And then what was her name? She used to do? Um she used to wear strobe pasties and thing, and she used to turn the turn the strobe lights on. And because she had saggy boobs, she had about five kids and she used to do, um, [00:47:30] tasseling with her boobs. One go one way and one the other go together, up and down all around and, um and of course, they used to say, There's one That's one. And she and they used to pick all the real girls as being the drags they never knew. It was never openly. It was only that that Wally Martin started a a truth, the truth. And he brought Carmen undone. I mean, most of the guys that cracked it with the businessman that didn't have a clue that she was a man. He brought [00:48:00] her undone. And that's when when when she started to get publicity and she turned it on them, she made it to suit. She made it for her sake instead of them making a fall out of her. She became quite clever at manipulating and be coming across as she was a lovely person, you know, And, um and and that's when she got into trouble because she's they they were talking about, you know, having [00:48:30] queens working in the coffee bar and all the rest of it. Da da da da da, and she said Yes, well, half of Parliament's you know, she's brought up about them being gay and bisexual. And of course, it caused a big, big hell of ball. And she had to go to, you know, first of all, she was going to have to publicly, um, publicly retract her statement and apologise, and then ended up being in a room full of of people and just talking and what it was, is She wasn't allowed [00:49:00] for so many years to divulge what she knew was Parliament. She was given a parliamentary edict or whatever they call it, that she wasn't allowed to speak about any of those matters for X amount of years. Because she she said, It's I can prove it, you know she wasn't going to back down. And there's that famous photo of her standing on Parliament steps all in black with white bloody shoes on, waving to [00:49:30] everyone. And the guys were were building the new beehive, you know, and they were all whistling and yahoo to her because most of them have been to a coffee land or a club or something, you know, and, you know, And when she was in there, she asked to go to Lou and the and the Usher showed her to the woman's toilet. And she said, Well, there you go. You see? But, you know, they made a big thing out of it and she never even even apologised. She said I never even a when it came down to it. It was never an apology. Offered [00:50:00] was just that. They demanded that she not write because she was going to write a book, you see, And and of course, they demanded that she didn't put anything about that in the book. And I mean, you know, Paul Carmen got ripped off her whole life through because Carmen was not a real good business woman come money wise. She had wonderful ideas. She was a wonderful front person. She was a fabulous hostess. Um, all of that. But, you know, it's a bit like a lot of [00:50:30] you're either a real good business person and you don't have a good you know and don't have a good front of house manner where she had the front of house and Manor. But she didn't have the business critique at the back. So, um, you know, it's like that horrible. You know Bob Jones, sir. Bob Jones. I mean, he's got an absolute cheek. He wrote something very nasty about her long before she died. But he wrote, you know, he called her a lumbering Maori bloke from the king country. [00:51:00] Well, she was never like that. Carmen wasn't the couldn't walk on high heels. He tried to say, and she was as thick as two things. Well, I must admit, Carmen was a bit thick when it came to um and I don't mean that to be rude. Carmen wasn't well educated. She left school quite young. Um, she was not. She wasn't a really literate, if you know what I mean. She wasn't She could read and write, but barely, if you know what I mean. She wasn't, um, Carmen, always. Also [00:51:30] because she had failing that. But Carmen always used a big A text that big letters when she wrote, you know, with a text with a text of pen and that, um, she wasn't. Yeah, she wasn't. She wasn't well read, but that doesn't make you a bad person. And I mean, and he rode on her coattails. I mean, he was the one that was behind her when they when she was going for mayor, and they liked what she stood for. And she said that they should make the whole of Vivian Street all strip clubs and brothels. And then it's easy to protect to police. [00:52:00] It's easy to look after, you know, And And she was right, you know, Everything that she stood for in those days has become law, legal prostitution, Um, you know, places for gay men to go and cruise clubs as they are now. All of that she brought thought of all of that in the in the seventies. She wanted all of that, and and most people were for it. But, uh, you know, and then and then he goes and writes in the bloody Dominion [00:52:30] that a horrible write up about her, which I thought was very unkind and uncalled for, but because all of a sudden he doesn't want his name Associated. You know what I mean? I I'm a now. I don't want to be known to be as associate. And yet it was him that pushed her to be mayor and promoted her and used to ride in the car with her and everything I mean and then to turn around. And I just thought it showed what he's about because I didn't think he needed [00:53:00] to do that. I think he could have been quite pleasant and nice and say, Well, you know, I got on very well with Carmen, but he he he carried on about, you know, she didn't know what to say half the time. And Carmen didn't because Carmen hated talking. She hated coming home and doing these talk things. She loathed it. It wasn't his scene, you know. But she did it and, you know, and she used to say to him, Well, you know, what do I have to say? Tell me what? Tell me again what I need to say, because, you know, she didn't want to forget it and and, [00:53:30] Yeah, and he used all of that sort of thing to write a nasty story about it. And I just thought it was very of him to do such an I don't think he needed to. You know, she had more, um, finesse in her little finger than you got in your whole body. You know, at least she was a lady and she always acted like a lady. You know, I realise that we're coming to the end of time. Um, can I just ask you, um, can you tell me what the, [00:54:00] um, sex work and the balcony? How did that work? The balcony had nothing to do with sex work. Really? Um I mean, if you met someone and had an assignation with them, that was your business. Was the coffee lounge that they used to. She used to do the tea C business, and I don't know much about that. Um, she had bro. She Yes, she had a she and that that actually came along more after I left. It probably was going [00:54:30] on before I went. Went because I I didn't go to the coffee lounge a lot. You know what I mean? So, um, but that teacup business I knew nothing about that until it came out. But I, I do know that she also had a brothel in at one part of it there. And, um yeah, but that's all when I went to Australia. So those are the years I don't know much about. I mean, she had a boarding house years ago in Auckland when she was living in Auckland in Grafton, she had a boarding [00:55:00] house. She offered she usually whenever she lived. If she had more than one bedroom or so, she'd always have borders. She's taken the girls or gay guys. Like in Auckland. She had the boarding house. She had gay guys, that business. Guys that worked that used to live there, come home for meals and all that sort of thing. But like Marlene did here Marlene Swan. Um, but yeah, a lot of it. You see, I miss because I went to Australia in 77 and then I never saw her until the late eighties or something when she started coming [00:55:30] to Melbourne because I hadn't been to Sydney. Oh, I lie. I went to Sydney in 76 and I saw her in 76. No, I didn't because she wasn't there. No, she wasn't there. I never saw her until the eighties. I'm wondering if you because you you were also involved in sex work. Um, back in the sixties and seventies, just to paint a picture of what that kind of work was like at that time when he worked as a girl. [00:56:00] No, they guys didn't know what you were. I worked on the street because, um, I could pick them up, all right, in the coffee lounges and that. But when I stood up, they fainted. Wasn't so bad if I walked across the room and they picked me. It was when they came to see me at the table. And, of course, and then 6 ft three of you unravels from behind the coffee table. They sort of go, you know, uh, so I found. And also being short sighted. I'm short sighted and always have been that I wouldn't see the client [00:56:30] until it was too late, and somebody else would pounce on them. So I found that it was better for me to work on the street. So I used to work Cuba Street, and I worked it before. It was a mall from from, um, Dickson Street up to I used to do and then up to Vivian. Then they put them all in, and then I used to work from up, and I used to pick the guy, pick them up in cars and take them up to Mount Victoria. And, [00:57:00] um and and they never knew the score, and you'd get them so excited that by the time you got them up there that you'd never they'd never have sex with you. By the time you got it out of the zip, it was just about over love. And if it wasn't over by the time you put your mouth on it, it was. And you know, you you knew what to do. You get the guy all excited, you know? And as soon as he'd say, Don't don't, don't don't touch. Don't. You're not right? Got you. So I'd be licking the air and playing with the and I think you got to keep that momentum. I used to think, and I and [00:57:30] the same guys that get tricked the same time I go. Oh, and I did want six, too. Not even I didn't want to have sex in the back of a bloody car. It was too too difficult to do trick sex in the back of a bloody car. Mind you, I've done it, but it was very difficult, but, um yeah, um and and it was you picked up you picked up from the bar Bistro bar you picked up from nightclubs you picked up on the street. You know, wherever you were, you were always on the lookout for business. You know, looking for business, [00:58:00] darling, stop the car, then. Looking for businesses. Jump in. Away you go. You know, um, but II I mean, and it And I only did that when I wasn't before I started working in the nightclubs, you know? And when I worked in the nightclubs, Well, then you'd pick up. You might pick up one at the end of the night or something that was hanging around waiting for you. I'd say to you, I'd love to go home with you. And I'd say you'd say, Oh, well, it cost the same mate. And they'd say, Yeah, and if they waited, they waited. If they didn't, they didn't. You know, [00:58:30] there was always somebody around. Really. Um, but once I had a job, mind you that the pay wasn't that good. So you still had to crack it to make ends. I mean, I mean, before I went to Australia in 1976 I had three straight jobs and I would be lucky if I had $3 left at the end of the week. I had to crack it on my day off, which was Sunday to go out and get pissed. That was what it was like. I worked at the Grand Hotel. I worked as [00:59:00] a in the kitchen, and at lunchtime I worked as a waitress. And then I worked in the kitchen after lunch and did the dishes. Um, and after that I used to work in the bar in the afternoon, um, serve dinner and then wash the dishes after that, do the dishes and then work back in the bar. And when the when the hotel closed, I used to go and work in at Chrissy's or somewhere like that at the sunset or somewhere like that, till four or something five in the morning and go home and sleep for two or three hours and go back to work again. [00:59:30] And I had no money, and I was nearly 30. I was 29 when I went to Australia and I had my 30th birthday there, and um, no, I didn't. I had my 31st birthday. There I went. No, no, no, No. 30. I had my 30th. I left in 76 1st of March 76. I turned 30 in August. Uh, 29th, um, same day as Michael Jackson. Um, and when [01:00:00] I left, I it was like there was no way in the world I was going to be ever able to get any money to do anything, to have my change or have anything, you know, because there just wasn't any money left. You know, it's not really much different to what it is today. Wages were always poor. Rent was always high. Food was always, you know, people say it wasn't, but it was. I remember Pound, but I was two and six when I was a kid, and my mother used to moan and say, Why does it [01:00:30] cost so much? Why is the meat so expensive when we produce it all? You know? So, um yeah. So that's why I went to Aussie because, you know, and and that's when I became a proper prostitute. Really? I thought it became my career because I knew that's what I needed to do. Well, I actually got a straight job working in a in a nursing home and I had two jobs. I got two jobs within and and then and a job in the parlour. And I realised that I was making more [01:01:00] in four or five hours in the parlour than I was making in either job. Gave up one job and stayed in the one because that was so well, I couldn't believe how well paid I was in the in working in the nursing home to what I was compared to here. So I gave up the other job, and then and then I gave up that job because I didn't like the conditions. Actually, a Greek lady and I reported him because he just treated the people, like, just shocking half starved them and everything. And I I realised that [01:01:30] working in the parlour was making me more money, you know? And so within a couple of months, I was I had my own little flat, which was a parlour, and made it was running it for myself. First of all, my girlfriend and I started there. She moved on to another one, and I stayed in that one, Um, and for Yarra. Um and I gave that up in 1986. And then, uh, in 87 I became [01:02:00] a, uh receptionist. But, um you know, um, that's about where you because there was there was brothels in those days, but they were very hush hush. I mean, I in Wellington I. I really didn't. Apparently there was one. But it wasn't till I was leaving that they were starting massage parlours were just starting. I used to, um there used to be a place in Herbert Street. It used to be called the TA to Tate. [01:02:30] Then it became the and I had. I was running that for a little while, and, um, and then, um through circumstances, it folded, and they turned it into Wellington's first massage parlour. And it was straight massage, and you had to have they had swing doors, you know, like a bar doors the bar, see the top and at the bottom, you know, um, like like, um, let you know, like a shutter, [01:03:00] half a door. And you had to be able to see the girl's head and the girl's feet. And the police used to walk through. And if they couldn't see your feet in your head, well, then they pushed the doors open. So what used to happen? Apparently, And it was called, Um Oh, what did they call It was the first one. And a friend of mine was the The, um, manager is, you know, the receptionist and [01:03:30] the girls would if the guy wanted them, then you'd probably have to wait until after they finish their shift because, um, Mark and casa around them and they would have a house somewhere where the girls would work from and, like, someone ring up and say, Oh, so and so is coming up, you know, to me, you know, from or we're sending a guy, there's a guy on his way up. His name is so and so, [01:04:00] um, I've just massaged him, or, um or or they might meet them after their shift, you know? And and I just don't I can't remember because, as I said, it was just starting before I left. I remember going and having a look at it, and, um, I'm trying to think of the name of it. Can't think of the name at the moment. It'll come to me when I go home, I suppose. But, um, they they were just starting in 1976. That was the first one in street. I [01:04:30] I'm just very aware of the time. And, um, just lastly, I'm just wondering, what is your overriding memory of Carmen? Um, an exotic beauty with a heart as big as a a lake. Uh, I i to me, Um and she was very beautiful in her day. Really beautiful. Right up until she died. I mean, I've got a photo on the wall of her of her 75th [01:05:00] birthday, where she is, like, 45 kg or 49 kg, skinny as anything. But they she had someone do their makeup for her and her face, and she and apparently she was dead on her feet. But as soon as she saw a man or the camera, the lips beautiful. Big smile came. And I've got a photo of their hands up like that, smiling and she looks absolutely beautiful. And if you didn't know better, you'd think, Well, how gorgeous and glamorous she was. And to think that she was dead and two months later or something, [01:05:30] you know, um, my overall thing, I would say about Carmen. Out of all the people like us that I've met, I would say she was the most genuine. I mean, there's plenty that are. But I'm saying that she was a really caring, genuine, big [01:06:00] hearted person. And I mean, that goes without saying. I mean, all the people I said ripped her off for her life. And she there was no revenge. There was no hate for them. There was never any. I never heard Carmen run people down. Never her biggest. If she was angry with somebody, or somebody annoyed her like Phyllis, she'd go. They're beautiful for Phyllis. Well, of course, Phyllis wasn't beautiful. So you knew she was being a gig. But that's about [01:06:30] as bad as Carmen ever got. Carmen was never vicious about people. She never said nasty things about people. She accepted everybody, and she was loved by everybody. She'd be cracking it on William Street in Sydney with a dress up over her backs and leaning on her umbrella. Someone rooting her from behind, talking to somebody. And they didn't even know they were there. Straight. People coming. Hello? Come in. I mean, I used to go and see her on William Street sometimes. And she was she [01:07:00] was a an attract. She was known by everybody and loved by everybody because she was a nice, genuine person. You know, if you needed to bob for a for a coffee, she'd give it to you. You know, she was a really lovely person. And that's all I can really ever say that she was very glamorous. Um, very beautiful, Um, very, very giving. And she gave us all of us girls go and a chance, and she [01:07:30] could have got rid of us, you know? I mean, I. I know that she knew we were a bit of a draw card as well, But, I mean, she still could have run her business and had a fabulous business without any of us she could have. And that nobody in this world can tell me any different. Because Carmen only needed Carmen. Carmen was the front, even though Carmen would come by and say the same thing half an hour later. And how are you, dear? And what you been up to? It was just her. Her genuine way [01:08:00] of being a hostess and making you feel welcome. Everybody got spoken to in the coffee lounge. Carmen, go to every table and say hello, dear. And how are you tonight? and thank you. And so Carmen really didn't have to have anyone else, you know? Of course, the queens were a draw card and because they were glamorous and beautifully groomed and all the rest of it, But she could have had just as beautifully groomed girls and other people there, and she still would have done well and probably a lot better than [01:08:30] she ended up with. Just quietly, to be honest, because when you've a lot of girls, you got to remember in those days it was so hard to get a job. So you lived on your wits. And sometimes those those things that you do to survive become a bit of a habit. And before you know it, I wasn't like that. When I got a job, I was lucky. And I'm not making myself any better, But But I always had morals. And I always knew that when I did something wrong, if I got caught, you play with [01:09:00] fire, you get burned. I never cried foul unless they arrested me for something I never did. Then I'd cry foul if I'd done it. I was quite willing to if I stole food and I got caught. I'm willing to take the consequence. I stole clothes. I was expected to take the consequences if I got caught. You play with fire, you get burned. I was taught that and I had morals. As soon as I had a job, all those sort of things went out the window. You know, I didn't need to do that anymore. But a lot of people, it becomes habit so they can't [01:09:30] help themselves. They got they got to take a little bit for them each time, a little bit. And that's where where Carmen was let down people. Too many people took so thousands fucking thousands of it. Thousands, hundreds of dollars a night would go out in their burel, and it's sad. And you, you know, some of them were their friends until the day they died, you know, and it's not being awful. I'm not trying to be nasty about somebody or anything. It's just [01:10:00] that sometimes those habits, it's like alcoholism. The the habit that you've got into to survive has become, or the the thing that you've done to survive has become a habit, and you can't help yourself and especially if they had a couple of drinks. You know, that makes it even, just, you know, because you always had drinks. You know, there was always drink going around, even though it wasn't licenced. There was always drink. So, you know, and and that's the only thing I can say is that if Carmen had probably had [01:10:30] had done it different, but she didn't have any regrets, she had no regrets. So there's no good saying if, but what I mean is, I think that she would have been a rich woman if it had been done differently. She always gave our people the family a chance, as I call it family, whether if you're gay or lesbian or whatever, you're family. We're all family and and we all have to stick together sort of thing. But sometimes your family rips you off, and it's a bit sad. And sometimes it's jealousy as well. [01:11:00] You know, um, but overall, a beautiful person and and sadly missed And, um, someone that I always looked up to. I mean, sometimes I didn't like her her, um, ways of dealing with things like I left Carmen's because she she tried to. I didn't go to work one night I I suffered with irritable bowel syndrome. Very bad. And a lot of the girls that get pissed and didn't go to work. Well, I learned my lesson, but I had irritable [01:11:30] bowel syndrome, and that's the only thing that ever kept me away from work. If my boyfriend gave me a black eye, I knew how to colour it and everything to make it so you couldn't see it. You know, III I never stay away from work. But I couldn't go because I had, You know, um, the these terrible, agonising pains, like someone ripping your guts out from irritable bowel syndrome, which I had for years and years and years and years being who I am, You see, stress, that's what causes it. And I didn't go to work [01:12:00] and, um and she tried to and she got she got my girlfriend that live with me to to try and, you know, say something to me about not being there. La la la And then the next thing my girlfriend didn't go to work, and she tried to get me to go and tell her something, and I said, No, I'm not the boss. If you wanna say something, you go say it and she sort of said, Oh, something, something I said, Oh, well, I'll give you two weeks notice And she was flabbergasted, absolutely flabbergasted that [01:12:30] I would do that, but I just didn't that that's just me. I'm a bit like that. If it's something I don't like, and and and it's and it's against, what my morals, you know, I. I think the boss should come out and say what they want to say to you, not send your best friend to to say it. And if that's the only fault she has, well, then it's nothing. But for me, that was something I didn't agree with, and I and I gave her two weeks notice. She nearly fainted. When I told her, she said. Really, I said, Yes, you've got two weeks notice. I work the two weeks out or [01:13:00] I'll leave now it's up to you, but I work two weeks until you find someone to take my place. She was very upset because I was a very good waitress. Sometimes the others didn't turn up and I'd waitress the whole club. It didn't bother me, but I just was upset because she thought I'd gone on a ship and I hadn't at all. I had not gone on a ship. You know, this is years I'd learned that many years before not to. If you don't go to work, you don't have a job. There's plenty of time to do something, you know? And And I needed [01:13:30] the money, you know? So, yeah. So, II I and I was upset because, um, she didn't have the decency to come and speak to me about it. And she got Paula, too, and then then tried to get me to do, to do something against Paula, and I just No, that was it for me. And then I went back and worked for Chrissy at sunset, but, um, but I didn't hold it against her or anything. You know, that was just me just the way I am, you know? And she never held it against me, you know? And we became [01:14:00] really closer and closer as the years went by, You know, um, but yeah, a lovely person and very sadly missed. I miss her very dearly. I used to ring her at least once a month on a Sunday. You know, after church, I'd ring her in the evening and she'd been at church or something, you know? And Yeah, I miss I miss her very much. I miss I miss her little calls when she'd ring me. Hi, Dad. You know, [01:14:30] and her and her and her cards with their big writing. And, you know, we never missed each other's birthdays or Christmas, and she'd often just send a card out of the blue. I've got heaps of them at home that I've kept that she sent me, you know, but always self promoting with cards and them with their picture and all sort of things, but yeah, I I miss her very much.
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