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Dana de Milo

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride in [00:00:05] My name is Donna de Mello. I was born on the 29th of the eighth 1946. in Auckland, New Zealand. Kara tiny baby. I ran away from home when I was 13, which was 1960. It was Queen's Birthday weekend fun event. And TV had just started black and white TV. And I ran away from home to be me. Yeah, and I actually met Carmen Not long after I was at a place called the cuddle coffee lounge, which used to be in I think it's case a test a custom straight or K Street but the one that's at the bottom of Queen Street The first one, snatcher Well, I can't remember I haven't lived in Auckland for over 50 something years and I think it's key straight. And the Great Northern hotel was on the corner on the lift as you were coming down Queen Street right on the corner. And underneath it on in the key Street was coffee lounge called the Dora. And opposite there was a street which is no longer called Little Queen straight. And I happen to be in Ecuador because a friend of mine worked behind the the bar. And then came this beautiful woman and a genome same with long dark here. And she was very slim and very gorgeous and very and didn't have a clue except it was something about her that drew me to water and I was up by the counter. And there was nothing I can't say what it was but I just knew and when she left I said to my friend I see Do you think that might have been the main and she said What makes you say that I said I don't know. But anyway, I followed her down to little strip and she was working in a nightclub for right and hasty as the answers. exotic dancer. And I used to stand there they used to go there every night because I was so interested in standing outside this club because I didn't have the money to get in and watch and hope that every time someone went in or out and opened the door I'd get a catch a glimpse of this this person as I later found out was common I didn't know she wasn't food and then I found out that she had told the girl and the daughter let me in because one night he said you can come in and sit at the back calm and see the nice to do scam and and he taught any pointed out to me and then I realized who she was and she had told him to lick me and that was you know yeah because and and then I never saw her again. Not long after that. I started going on the ships and things and staying away from or getting away from walking because it was very very the police were very heavy in Auckland at the time needs to get the dogs onto us and everything and follow it you know you couldn't go on the street they would arrest you and put you in a lock up you know and they couldn't lock you they couldn't charge you with anything because there was no law against dressing in the opposite sex is closed so I found out listening to them at the key the key police station which no longer there I don't think right opposite the wharf. They used to take me the overtime new kid on the block and I heard them saying because it was it was one of those old fashioned police station the head bars you were in behind folder ceiling bars and I was leaning up against the evening different money I the goodie and listening and he was saying one person was saying to the other there's nothing we can do because there's no law against dressing in the opposite sex as close and least of course a felonious act example black and face except for in other words you use you are using drag as a cause of felonious act. Of course you are if you're cracking at all surprised, but they didn't know that. So they had to let me go all the time. When they let me go, you see, I had to walk from the city through three or four different suburbs to get out and get to get where I was living. And each suburb the policeman ring the next policeman so they could have a little joke on the way I [00:04:16] don't know. Can I just take you back a wee bit because I'm really interested in the 1960s. To expand a wee bit on what it was actually like, as a as a as a young person. You said that you kind of ran away from him at the age of 13. What what happened and [00:04:32] why did I run away, I ran away because I didn't think my mother would accept me. Because I used to get a hiding all the time for dressing. Not not from my grandmother, not from my aunties or anything, only my mother. And it wasn't too many years later, that when we got back together after I was 21, because I've been taught by my doctor that up to 20. When you're under the the United States, you're under your parents, guardianship didn't matter if you had a house or business or if your parents didn't like the way you live, it could be put into a loony bin. And he told me that so I knew that's why I was very weary, because I didn't think my mother would accept me because she always gave me a hiding for it. But later she said she knew it was waiting for it to happen. But I said why didn't you say and then she said, and she said and I said Why did you give me hidings and she said, Well, no mother, and the penny dropped and I forgave her immediately. No mother likes to see the child pointed it bashed and picked on and harassed. And I thought, you're right, I understand. Now, I do understand I didn't mean. So that's the reason I ran away. And also Auckland was very difficult. In those days, you couldn't wear a woman's clothes on the street, you could wear full makeup in here and everything, but you couldn't wear women's clothes. And if you wore a Briar, then you're supposed to wear a singlet underneath it. A nice, nice, that's the early 60s we're talking 1963. And then see combination, she changed the law in Oakland, because she got her picked up, the cops picked on her going home in a car with the sky and tried to have her up. And she took it to court and they took it to court with the guy and prove that he was just taking her home from work, which I don't think he really was I think she was pregnant with him. But anyway, he was willing to stand up and say he was driving home from work. And she won the case saying that there was no law against her being like she was so it changed a lot in Oakland that was about 1965 or something like that, I think when I was really looking even moment and then I came to Wellington to live permanently in 63. [00:06:41] When When did you start dressing 60 and 1960. So at the age of 13 [00:06:46] when I ran away, I tried it for him. I thought because you know people used to say it was because which is it knit see it was john money's idea nurture, not nature. So of course any parent thought it was their fault. If they looked into anything, and they found anything about it, it was all written by dr. john money, who was a New Zealander. He went to the [00:07:10] doctor one of my mother's immediately. [00:07:17] So it's a unit, it's a hospital and university and then America, Hopkins University ops consults. Anyway. So if any parent looked up anything about being changed one that wasn't even called transgender in those days, you were drag queens and Butch Butch queens didn't matter if that Queen gotten dragged on the weekend or not there was still called Butch going because I worked as boys during the day we were drag queens because we lived as great as women. And if you read anything about it, you would come against john money and his was niche and his was niche and not night, Jay didn't believe he believed you could bring a chart, bring a child up to be a girl or to be a boy. And so I suppose this is what people thought and people use say, Oh, it's because your father's and my father only been dead 18 months or something, you know, I mean, Dad was sick or through my life, but I still had my father's influence, you know? And he knew, he said, My Mom, stop making them do the housework, but you only making it wish and mommy said got to stand on his own two feet when he leaves home or if anything happens to me. And then I'm in a new day, but I knew from the side that my father was going to die in because he had Hodgkin's lymphoma, Hodgkin's disease, but it wasn't known as that. It was just the very beginning. I thought it was Stevie then they found out was Watkins. Anyway, so anything my mother would have read, which I know she would have tried to would have been about john hopkins. So she thought it was an IT WAS nurture, nature. So she used to give me hidings all the time you see if she caught me dressed up and, and my mother could give a good bloody hiding. Let me tell you, I'm different one year because of it. But it was anything about a hiding for that I kept dying to do that she couldn't stop me. How did you dress up? What were you dressing in? Her clothes and my grandmother's clothes. I used to come home from school every day. My grandma and my father's mother stayed with us for quite a while. And he used to tell these lies and say I did a play at school and I was the girl and what have you and she and she was an old Victorian so he said civil which is there in the land and she'd sit in the middle and we put toys on 4614 there was an audience and she didn't that nodding off and our trips around the house and carry on and at the end and make a big noise and and that was it. You know? And I can remember once see my mother had a car so you never think cuz you're young was about nine teen. You never think of your mother car breaking down and Mama gone off to the dressmakers. And I'm dressed up in her clothes. I've got on the same stockings and topia's shoes and this gal that this full blade skirt and a sequined top and I mean this is broad daylight I mean place broad daylight affair on and the secret top and a brass with lemons in them. And my mother had one of it I just come out was in the 50s. So what could have been even bit late it could have been 58 dead could have been passed. And it was a Hedwig. They were these fun weeks, weeks and women didn't like a whit. Here, stop it stop it on this darlin in a room. And I had stuck this on and I had a fascinator on top of it. And I'm standing and I've been smoking since I was about six or seven because they said it stunted growth and right. You know, I was five foot two and then the prominence I was very taut. Anyway, I'm saying that we only had one the garage and in a driveway and it was next door had didn't have a garish driver that they use the same driveway. Anyway, this taxi pulls up in the door, I'm standing at the gate puffing a cigarette on all dressed up mother and this taxi stops. And I think all the boys explore sack on a cigarette loud blowing smoke and all of a sudden I saw this white here and my mother was platinum blonde natural come out from from beside this taxi and I thought oh, my mother, I swallowed the cigarette and I thought what am I going to do? Run around the back and rip it all off? Or should I just walk up the street and pretend I was selling something? Well, of course you're not actively selling something dress like that in broad daylight, the standard to wander up the street and next thing by the year and ripped and sign you into hiding? But yeah, that's that's that's why I ran away because I didn't think Jude except me. And she said you would have but to light you know, [00:11:43] we did you run away to [00:11:45] I ran away to some friends place. I actually had a very good boss, my boss and I was an apprentice French polisher because my mother made me I left school at 12 at 12 and a half got special permission to leave school and go into a trade. I hated school. low scores picked on at school or my mother didn't know that I didn't I never told my mother. Because you see kids want to make their parents proud. And you know, especially if if teachers are beating these kids, you know, they're helping them. They would just as bad as the kids, they would eat them on you know, make the bullets and they'd fire them. So you knew I knew in my heart that it wasn't something my parents would be proud of. So I wasn't going to tell them. So I never told my mother ever until you know after three one I'm she came and got me here in Wellington. We've been home for holiday. I told her everything. And she said why didn't Jeremy I said because it would have just made it worse. I said remember used to make me dance with those Indian girls. I wanted to dance with him and look at the jewelry in there. And things between their eyes at school. But I didn't do it willingly because the kids would say I was galaxy think the next day and all that sort of mystery kids were and men would make me go and dance with these Indian girls, you see, so they wouldn't be on their own. And next day assures me because I get picked off. And I said you don't realize that's why I used to say no all the time, do you and you'd say going back to sit down, you know, nobody wants to dance or there you go and dance with it. And I didn't want to and I'd say nine and he said you know give you a hiding? And I'd say but you don't understand, but I wouldn't tell her that I get picked on the next day. So So and of course you gotta even nowadays, I think that people still think they're alive and a nice days even felt more alive. You know, I hadn't heard of Chris Christine Jorgensen. And I had thought I was 10 or 12 when I read about it, but I was it was 1952. So I would have been I was born in 46. So I would have been 60 years old when I read about it. My mother asked me to sit the fire. And I was crushing up the paper under balls and it came across this on the front page. What is it gi changes swap six or changes six or something and had a photo of here with a head on the side of the GI and a photo of as a woman I remember ripping it out. But again in my pocket, and every night reading it under the blankets with a torch and thinking on Well, I'm not the only person. And then the year I live time was the April actually had a change 1960. So yeah, so I didn't know until 2002 that I was actually only six years old. I thought I read about it when I was dead. So that I knew at six years old that I was like that I knew before that anyway, I always knew. [00:14:46] Can you describe for me what kind of child you were? [00:14:51] Well, I'd say now precocious. I mean, I wouldn't have said at once. Because I was an only child because my mother couldn't have any more children. I was wondering 13 pregnancies that survived my mother. I was Yeah, I was 13. My mother kept losing her babies they didn't know. And even when she died, she didn't know I found out through someone that I knew. That was a theater sister and everything that every time my mother got pregnant, she got diabetic, you say and she became and that's why I believe it's about if the mother is stressed out having a baby, it affects the brain. You know, the body's formed and everything but the brain isn't completely formed. And when a woman is very stressed, she flushes estrogens. And they say that it's such and such a semester. But I mean, my mother's mother was dying. And she died on the first of August as one on the 29th. And my father was in hospital and I didn't know what was wrong with him. So I mean, that's a lot of stress. And my mother's mother wouldn't let anyone else but her feeder and my mother was toxic blowing up like a balloon and she had to go from hospital to hospital, you know, so a debt stress and I can imagine this I actually believe that you know, because [00:16:08] you know, I wasn't brought up [00:16:12] like they say nurtured let us not true its nature. I was always like that. I mean, at three years old, my grandfather knew. He said to my grandmother, I was different, you know, because he gave me a toy. And it was a beautiful bright red car made out of steel with black, black, lovely shiny black wheels and the skies all cast iron, you know, after the war, and ahead. I was straight says before 1949 and just before after he died before he died on me. And it had a little main inside it. And he had a helmet on the wall painted different colors. And I remember picking it up thinking out pretty it was and picking it up and chucking it because it was cold and hard and it wasn't what it looked like and gain it and my grandmother saying to my grandmother mother liver he's different October geez different another minute. And then it wasn't taking any notice. And he got a bit louder. And of course I thought he was upset with me. So I started crying which anguish been which he said he's different approach is different, but he didn't care. But he knew there was something different about me You know? And and I don't remember ever not being the way I am. I mean I Cisco and swap all my toys for broken dolls and McCain look on the box and say come we've got all these dolls go back and get your toys. So go and get my toys because it goes just I'll come back later. And I'll swap them again now is to keep swapping them on these broken dolls for toys. But I would say that I was very precocious. I mean I could. I could read write and read poetry and everything. Before I went to school. I spoke loudly before I went to school. [00:17:58] So I was rather efficacious job. I would say [00:18:02] the lady next door thought I was a little girl for years didn't I actually asked my mother many years later what we was Carol, you know with Carol, and it was me, Darrell, you know, so I was clever. I was a very intelligent child until I went to school. And when I hit the standards that was into me. Because I got picked on by the kids in the standards they used to call me pickled onions five foot two just escaped from the organization because that was the tallest kid in the school always from the very beginning. They thought I hate Cline's builders, because I was so tall. I ended up growing so quick that the ligaments and my legs were so stretched there was no fluid in them. So I had to have plaster casts on my leg because I couldn't put my heels to the ground. I just used like a weed I shot up you know and was when I went into this from premise to the stained it's that the everything just started going downhill from there on. Because kids will pick on me all the time you say and teachers will know better [00:19:06] was a quite usual or unusual to leave school at the age of 12 I mean was it was it kind of [00:19:13] five and a half talking and you've got special permission I don't know there were some kids that [00:19:19] especially [00:19:20] if you weren't doing very well and I wasn't I wasn't doing well. And which was so frustrating for my parents my mother and and David passed by the end but there was so frustrating I mean once I even got failed at school you know I need because the teacher was shitty with well he he fainted my cousin that he done he done his training college with him because she didn't even like him. He was a horrible little mean he took it out on me and I was failed one year so they took my mom and dad took me to the Education Board and I did this exam which was an English exam from England and I passed everything except for with butter. And they suggested that I should be put into the next class where I should be but the headmaster said no and they held me back so I had the teachers against me as well you know like he used to make me cry get me up in front of the class and make me cry and then take seen me outside then come out and say to me Why did you cry? You know those sorts of things. So it was only two teachers in my school that were really nice and that was a married couple and they were really good to me Mr. Mrs. It but other than that it was hell. I was actually held at school I lived I mean I can see why people murdered people you know, because I used to think about how can I kill them? How can I kill these bastards to leave me alone You know, I used to get extra text because I used to get so quiet very nice to get esoteric. And if I couldn't get if I didn't get one normally just getting stressed out I try and force myself to everyone so I wouldn't have to go to school it's a much I did it low school was nothing good or bad at all for me and you know I love learning I love history I loved everything but I hated school because of the kids and because I was obviously sister I was obviously a girly you know was obviously a sissy there was no hiding it I was just the way I was made I'm just you know mama the sustained me You woke up a girl the god side Wacom and the more I tried to walk straight the worse it was you know so it was just the way I was you know [00:21:27] what kind of words with a tease you with [00:21:30] pasta, Korea [00:21:33] say I was called I was called Susie right through school, scratch scratch it under my pencil case and thing and my mother said to me, hey, did that what did you do this for? fancy? They use the campus you know? What did you do? Therefore? Who's Susie there? And I'm sort of stay in the enough a blowfish, you know? or read thinking what am I going to say? And she said, Oh, I know you got yourself a girlfriend? Never. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's the first time I sort of lied in my life about who I was. Because it got me off getting a hiding for scratching on my you know, my auntie bought me this pencil case and all it was all the lines of wood and everything. And it was expensive, you know? And I said I did it. And they and then of course what who did and then of course, I didn't want to tell her and then she goes Oh, I see you've got yourself a girlfriend. And so I got off that way. But um yeah, I don't. school wasn't enjoyable for me one little. [00:22:30] You've got really vivid memories. I'm wondering what is your earliest memory. [00:22:35] And with my grandparents, my grandfather about two or three, carrying me on his shoulders on the wharf to the Bruna fairy going to wake ER and they lived in my Kiana and I hated the gaps between the boards on on on on the wharf because as a little Of course, I'm a faker for between them and right up until I was about 11. I still hated those GIFs and my friend, my mother used to hurry up, get across and jump over the mind. And my granddad used to carry me everywhere and everything. Yeah, that's, I'd say about two or three is my most vivid memories of my grandpa's fisher of my grandparents. My granddad was just he was always my granddad was always there and it was later in life. He died when I was three Yeah, hit carcinoma for lungs from the First World War must mustard gas inhalation. And he used to come to me at night when I was asleep. And I would wake up. And I would see this light shining through the Venetian blinds on this boarded and that here this. And of course you forget, you forget as you get older, you know, and I forgot that it was my grandfather like that. And I wake up. And I'd be like that nothing would come out, you know, and then all of a sudden that be screaming and mommy coming up several media. And later on. I said to my mother when I when she came to get me and when I'm talking about things and I said Do you know how I used to be screaming at night? And she said yes. I said, you know what that was? And she said what night explain what she's dead be your grandfather. And I said what do you mean? She said that was my dad's day. She said, Well, you're the only child the only grandchild. And he used to stay at the end of your court for hours at night in the dark just looking at you just just staring at you because he just loved you so much. Because you you were his only grandchild because Uncle Harry never had any children. So and So apparently that was the apple of his eye. You know, I've got photo of him holding me in there. But yeah, those are my earliest memories. And as I say that I forgot the United he used to have a Wheezy chest until a man seated and then all of a sudden I remember that it used to my legs used to be on his chest and how that used to is just use the heave, you know, when he carried me over his shoulders. So yeah, that's my earliest memories. [00:24:59] It's a how just those small things can trigger a memory or trigger something that you forgot [00:25:04] me when I forgotten that he had to bring it ready that he wheezed, you know, because, you know, three hours, probably about nine or 10 years old, nine years old when this was happening or something. So he'd been dead for about six years, you know, and you forget just those little things. And it wasn't till num said it would be your grandfather and it all clicked into place. Because then I remember he did ever ways, you know, but yeah, [00:25:26] so 12 and a half, you went and did an apprenticeship. What was the [00:25:30] French polish and I went to work for a guy called Doug Elliot. And he went there was in Williamson's road in Auckland, there was a cabinet makers by the name of Torrens and son, which is quite funny because it was my mother's my my grandmother's maiden name. And it was my dad's middle name Eric Collins prefer and I went to work for Doug Elliot who worked a subcontractor when he was his own content, but he used to do all the French polishing all of it and and probably your fans were just coming out nice dies. And anyway, I with him as apprentice. And he had three daughters, young daughters, and he knew that I was the way I was and he used to say to me just like my bloody daughters, you know, different than my girl. And I used to go and stay with him on weekends often because he had three girls and we used to go out on ponies and it and it was him that helped me run away Queen's Birthday weekend. I was supposed to go on the Thursday night and come back home on the Tuesday so I'd have Friday, Saturday, Sunday Monday at his place go back to work Tuesday and go home Tuesday night. Well of course I didn't go home. I thought we'd already planned it he planned so that if if man rang then then his wife was back in and and she would say that I was out with the girl with the kids you know and taking the mantle Piney or something so it wasn't till the Tuesday night them I never got home and my mother started ringing task and we're I wasn't easy to know [00:27:10] that I hadn't come to work that day. [00:27:13] And so what happened? [00:27:14] Well, I don't I I wasn't there was I had written a night and cried all the way through it was Ortiz dying saying that, you know, I didn't want to hurt you because I loved it and I did I adored my mother absolutely adored it. She could be a hard taskmaster, but I still adored her and I was very much loved by when she was very strict. But the fact is that I wouldn't be where I am today. If it wasn't for her. I learned to cook clean, dig gardens, cut hinges, cut trees, mow a quarter acre section with a hand Malone, all those sorts of things. I was doing it at six and zero was cooking at six years old, you know? And so she made me Yeah, she was exactly right. What you said to my father, I was able to look after myself. And I was able to make a living right throughout my life, you know, and but so I ran away from and I ran away and I went and stayed the people next door where she was a German salmon and her husband was a was a model. He was from the All Blacks from the 30s. And they were the only people in their area and got snubbed by everybody of course. And we were middle class even though we were poor because my father was so but we lived in the middle class area grayling. They call it Galen. Not get wasn't Galen and mind I can tell you. But anyway, I lived in grayling, and they were they were my mother seed. You also play with them. You're not to play with those other kids, you go in there and play with them. You know, so I grew up. My mother was very my mother believed that there was good and bad and all people. And you know, it didn't matter what color your skin was, we're all the same. And so I was brought up to be like that. And they they are the ones that helped me when I ran away. One of the boys Nick store, he was the salesman, merchant seaman, and his mates took me in. And I used to go on the ships and go around the place on the ships. You know, I used to run boat around the guys used to not for six because but I used to go and do the washing and everything for the Marla and Dan style on the ship and Australia long before I never really went to Australia with all around New Zealand, all that sort of thing on these things ship, the blue starlight, all those sorts of boats. [00:29:34] So when you were on the ships, because this is Darrell who is Donna. [00:29:39] I was Darryl right up until I worked for Carmen. Even though it was a moment's clients because my mother told me that even if I'd been born a girl she would have called me Darryl because that's the name she liked. And it was a name you could use for boy or girl. And it couldn't be shortened because she hated her name was murdered or jaded people calling him it. She said you will you catch Jordan Darrow you know so that's why she gave me the name. And she said and I asked her and I said well what would you call me if I've been a girl and she said this is when I was a little kid. She said the same Darryl because it's it's it can be used for boys. And it's da da y el and the only of spelling it saw that was Darryl Lyft. Zanuck funnily enough, there was a lot of devils later on in life, but they will let the one hour or something like that. Anyway. I was Darryl I was Darryl but I was in bills clothes. And I was Darryl right up until the late 60s until I went to work for Carmen tannins, coffee Landon, she said you can't use that name, because you live all the memories in the bar coming to look for it. Because I'm not with around with all the medical people, you know. And so she said, You got to change your name. So I changed it to Diana, from the perfume to boo by Diana. And I use the Yanks, I used to go with the guys that black Americans off the ship, they used to bring me taboo, which was the perfume of the day in those days in the early 60s. And they used to bring it for me because it was like five pound a bottle of me on the bottle or something. And those days now it's just cheap, but it was the top of the line to buy down. And that's where I got my name from. [00:31:18] Just want to rewind just a wee bit. And when I just want to go back to the list of that you wrote your Mom, can you tell me about what was in it? I wrote [00:31:26] to her saying that [00:31:30] he was a lifetime because I was assessed a Well, that didn't again to be it because I was going to be a mean. So I'll put on my suit. And a look good in a suit, as you would know. Because we both don't look good in clothes, you know, and go off to get a job and got people dead all the time. And I thought, well, if they're going to giggle at me, I'm going to bloody dresses the way I feel. So I put on a dress from that moment on more release. [00:31:55] When I came to Wellington, in 63, it became [00:31:59] because you hit you couldn't go out at night and woman's clothes, we used to go to the pub, and then we go home, we'd rather pick up a guy to take us home or we'd have enough money for a guy and whatever clothes, girls clothes, and then and then go out on a taxi or something. And the times that we didn't we got chased by the police myself and I know who's now passed away. And they got the dogs on trust and everything. This is an invite. But I was Darrell and then I came to Wellington to live in 63 permanently. [00:32:28] When your mom receive that note, [00:32:30] I put on that water efforts. As you know, I was I was a CSA and well, I live dress up the night that when I left was I'm leaving home to become a mean I'm sick of being called a fruit was one of the words I used to say, and a professor in the society. I've got to leave home and be a main stand on my own two feet, which I was doing anyway. But this is what people put into your brain it's a new start to believe that like I believe that I was was dirty and I was appear the and everything else because that's what society told me it wasn't allowed my change. And I realized I'm not a duty person. I'm a good person, you know, but it took 30 years, you know, till I was 30 to realize that, you know, because this is what society puts upon you your perverts your duty, you leave the place everybody call you these filthy name. So you become too. You know, it's like, if you're an Aboriginal, you know, from the moment you open up from the moment you're born, you know, you're never going to be anything because, you know, because there's nothing for you that I want you to know. There's no job there's no nothing you know, and it was the same. You know, in the 60s, you couldn't get a job if you had to be laid out. If you had a Beatle haircut, more modern clothes and 60s in New Zealand you were puffed up there was plenty of straight guys that we knew that at Beagley cats and more the modern plays that mixed with all of us the prostitutes and the lesbians and the queens and this ship models and everyone that they all this driver because they were on diversity I asked as a as a as a minority because they were both did you didn't never long Yeah, show back on sides in your war. Bloody suit. You don't worry they stove blue paints and almost on that house. Let's have straight lights we were I mean, when I lived in 1976 people still dress to go to the city, you wouldn't go to the city in a pair of shorts or Trek. So nets and 76 you know what I mean? You still brisk to go to the city. I can remember being on the bus, one's coming down to the street. And these two old ladies and I had on my scarf on the role of underneath my coat and stockings and shoes. And me and these two old ladies. And I thought that's frankly, you know, Yes, I know. She said look at her, you can see her knees and she's got no gloves on. So when [00:34:51] you ask yourself, they say you know, [00:34:55] but, you know, that's the way you felt because it's the way you were treated you know, you you we were the face of gayness even though I wasn't going to be a guy six or be at eight or six. But, you know, I never had gay six. And we were the face of gayness because gay men would run and I might be at the party with them the night before, but you see you on the street, they're shot into the shot, they don't want to see you because they could hide behind the male clothes. Whereas, you know, we were the face of it. And we were the ones that got picked on. Unless you were overtly gay then you got put down to, but if you could sort of, you know, if he was a guy that could sort of scramble up a bit, acting a bit Butch well, then they didn't get picked on. But if you were different, you got picked on you know, and it's the same as I say in its and the museum to pepper a little bit I see that, you know, we were taught that the place where the best thing before sliced bread because there's no slice Britain, Martha, when I was young, and you were taught by your parents, if you ever get into trouble, you need help you go and see a policeman, they didn't say if you're different, or your career or your your eye, golf or you want to be a woman or whatever you might be, if you're different, you don't go near a policeman because they got unto themselves. You know, there's one here that used to arrest me nearly every night of the week, you know, take me to the sales and make me dress Andris for every person that were there. And then to make it his business, I'd fall asleep to wait till the next lot came on and he made me wake me up and make me do it all over again. And there was nothing I could do about it no matter how I practice that there was nothing I could do about it. He was God. And that's how they played it. You couldn't if you they say get in the car and that's what I've done nothing wrong. It's I get in the car. I've done nothing wrong. You don't get an account Have you out for for hampering a placement and these line of duty. So I get in the car, and he'd make his drivers because he always had underlings wear them and they'd be the ones that he'd make a race me not him. And he'd make the guard speed off. And of course we're talking 6963 456 and there was no seat belts and he tear make him tear rounded 80 miles an hour around the streets, and I hated spit and he knew your Achilles heels is a new way to speed unless I'm in charge of a microcontroller. And he'd be abusing me corner me a shirt lifter which I didn't even know what it means I poor Porsche all these sorts of filthy things I've never even heard of in my life and calling me names and Does your mother know you're a fuckin freak. And you know, in fact, last night I got to do that something you know, all this used to really upset me and then he make him pull into a an alleyway and turn on the lights of course, it's dark and then I turned on the inside light and you can see yourself in the in the window of the car. And he pushed my face and and push it and push it and push it into the window until I see it back off or big or something go gotcha. [00:38:01] wrist, wrist. Wrist Did [00:38:05] you know this what they call it? risk the thing or whatever you know. I mean I came back here in 91 and I and my niece was on Marion straight cracking it and I was talking to and this guy kept arresting me one degree and I would ask those days were over and and I pass off and he wouldn't go anyway all sudden the policeman come around the corner. And Stephanie's excuse me constable could just that guy to take off. He's annoying my auntie and she took him away. And I was flabbergasted that absolutely fly because I said you know what, girl I said in my day, they would have grabbed me by the shoulder and sitting there punch it for me. Give it one for me. Because that's what they were like, you know, there were just was shocking in those days. So I mean, no wonder you felt like a piece of dirt you know. [00:38:56] And I came to Wellington and 63 [00:39:00] first week for manual Papadopoulos and he had a strip club in ministry that was the scene. And it was called the it was a restaurant that we back to being a restaurant but it was the restaurant called El Matador. And he changed it and I think he was the first to have a strip club in Wellington. And he changed and it was called the clubbing Sadiq with a qu e on the end of it. And then Passy opened up in in, he opened up the purple onion, and Vivian straight and not long after manual bought the corner block and opened up on the first floor. The club exotic and it was not the club exotic. It was club exotic, but I worked for him when he was a ministry and I was a waitress and had a good job there but I stuck to that because I got pissed one night at the bus driver and went on bought a shirt and never went work and the next night I went to work and he said no job for you finish and I got one of my pay no job no pay. He never kicked me out. He never said I had to get out of the collaborative thing. But there was no job and it took me [00:40:15] probably another [00:40:19] two years three another three years at least before I got a job. I mean I've got jobs like the cops that say you have to get a job you got a week to get a job or wherever yet violence orderly because this was what they used to. I got put in jail the very first time for Ivan disorderly and they shouldn't have done it because I was in somebody's house and that's illegal. I don't disorderly is that when you're in a public place not in someone's private and someone's on whether it's rented or what but anyway, I got a man's jet which was Easter Thursday night we got pinched. The other Queen and the other girl had been was head up for receiving stolen goods. I don't know whether it was a TV or what it was. And they knew I didn't live there was I knew me. So they arrested me for Ireland disorderly which I never knew until it was too late it was and I had no judge no nothing. And we were there Thursday, Friday, Saturday Sunday. And it was full of drunk people from Ireland assault being it was all in drunk and disorderly and because of people used to come from all the country areas like Gisborne all that and I mean in those days it took you a whole day to get from nice things the because it was all gravel roads and people come down and get person it's not like living in the country fall asleep in a doorway and they get arrested. While the the lockouts were overflowing so the head to bring in the justice of peace on Easter Sunday and he had to miss Easter Sunday lunch while he wasn't at all every and he was popping everybody in jail and I knew nothing about my own recognizance or anything so that's Yeah, so I ended up doing a month that was the only time I ever was actually sentenced to jail. And I was going to kill myself because the law cop does let me tell you it seemed for was disgusting is slime used to run down the walls you'd pee in a bucket that was black but in those days the dye of the black came out of the plastic because they didn't know how to do it properly. And they really they were these buckets that were half black and half white and it was it was horrible. And someone said oh Giles Metcalfe It's worse than that and I thought oh my god, I'm going to kill myself. Well I got to makeover It was like going to all spittle was perfect was it was better than the bloody lockup Let me tell you it was clean and creamy and green and like bit like the hospitals and yet you know anything is I now and a good Agra phobic and very small spaces that's what being locked in a cell did to me attend if I go to a toilet or something at smaller Tyndall leave the door open or make it very quick, excessive. I find I yeah, I find that that's that's what it's done to me. It's made me a bit. feel a bit agoraphobic. I'm very small places. I mean, I can deal with it. It's not not a bad thing. But yeah, I noticed I do I get a bit you know, leave the door open. So thing [00:43:06] in jail, were you treated? How would you treat it? [00:43:12] I mean, they say to you, would you like to be put in a girl a woman's prison? Yeah, whatever. But then again, it's like sending, sending a prostitute to do to do a house full of clients. I mean, you know, there was guys, they were guys, they had no girls. And most of the coins that that had been punched before me a lot of them were, were were very that was sort of stuck up because it didn't have whereas I I just knew how to talk to people. I've always been a persons persons I've always been able to do so I just went in there and was just me and got on perfectly. I mean, I never ever smoked a roll your own cigarette and no Dharma was in there. And every time I got into trouble with the police, I'd get a I'd get a fine. And in the end, I'd have to go to prison pay for that fine, you see, so that always put me back in the same cell. And I always got a pack of cigarettes given to me. I got chocolate cake and coffee at night and all sorts of things through the window. I was spoiled in jail very spoiled even even the governor governor Gorman I wouldn't wear the shoes they were idiots caught up a things and he said but you can't have basketball boots because you're not being sentenced to over a month you know, you can't have gym boots. And then I said well I'm not wearing a MongoDB fate and he said well you'll just get thrown into the digger and so I said well he found me the digger so I mean he gave me He gave me gym boots too We're another time I got thrown in and digger for something and the guys which is which is the under the ground and you had a cage that you walked into to do your you didn't come out of this head the cell was completely dark and during the day you got out for an hour just stand walk around this cage and I was walking around and the boys were going off to read the gardens veggie garden saw me and went on strike and set on all the way up buildings and refused to work so they had to let me out of the end of the digger Chris the boys refused to go to work delete Sally out basically Sally and Joe long to sell it [00:45:28] in the ticket was what comes my diggers [00:45:30] the dungeon under the ground you go to the dungeon you know which is no windows nothing that I know that was the only for like a day in a bit was a bit the bit was when I was out walking and they saw me and the boys or went on strike and said on the hours and shades and refuse to do their work so next thing acting supervisor because the other Mr. Gorman was away in each chapter me in there and he had to let me out got in touch with Mr. Gordon Mr. Gordon said let it let him out. live here out they will call me see your name. Yeah, [00:46:07] did your mother ever come looking for you? [00:46:11] Yes, she did. Not in Wellington for she didn't know wasn't what she did. No, I was in Wellington because every time I got into trouble it was in the paper my auntie that lived in Main Street would cut it out and send it to my other it just to be a bitch that she was by sexually bloody self but with a hidden it from the family. I spread meant not long after I was here. And now husband was bisexual. He was going with one of the girls that I knew it was a taxi driver but anyway she never found me She never forgot she wants an Auckland she found me Not long after I'd run away and was grabbing at me and yelling me in the car and I just got out and walked away and bawling and she's trying to make me get in the car and I just refused. I just kept walking shit. And then I just took off ran away. I mean when I was after I turned 21 I might have been 22 or something I wrote and I see what you know, ma'am, I've always been a sissy. Well, I left him because I was associate I tried to be a man that didn't work. I've lived and worked as a woman all my life since and I hope to have a sex change if you don't want anything to do with me I will understand but I needed to tell you the and she wrote me a letter back I still got it and it said the last time she called me Darryl the last time she put Mr on for another envelope the news about yourself as you know I'm not gonna lie and the news about yourself came was quite a shock to me. But as I've always said to you you're big enough and not be enough to look after yourself so you can live your life as you see fit. It's your business it's your alarm. And then she answered all the questions when it fell and all the people I want to know and next thing she was down a month later knocking on the front door two to four Adelaide rose and this girl come up sit on this lovely blonde lady downstairs plump blonde lady at the front door she's very beautiful. She's asking for you and I went oh she's this lady's downstairs asking for you as soon as she got yes and very beautiful and I said oh that's my mom and I had rollers in my because every night I used to go home from work and Deputy do my I was waiting for I was waiting for Christine w do my hair and rollers and puts didn't make it happen Star Wars I had to do w do there and roll it and I was on hormones I started demon 6065 when I was 19 these girls came from Australia these shiny girls and they had boobs and I wanted to know what it was and I found out what it was by going home with Natalie and superstar and I was the first in New Zealand to get their minds and it was across the road and Dr only used to be in there that house across the road where we used to be once the H dp and the ends it bc and I came down from Adams terrorists around the corner I smoke cigarette smoking cigarettes and then Winton and ask for super strong from him and he said to me all you know what they do it just to give you bring Sydney guys now and they can give you thrombosis like NASA get it all right. And is that the you had to pay to go the doctor you had to pay for the woman's in those days. And that was a 1965 I was 19 and [00:49:35] so I wasn't working. [00:49:39] I didn't start work for Chris until 1967 I was 21 so it was quite a few years between working for manual and getting a job another job. And then once I got the job with Chris and proved I never took a night off I never not went to work prove my worth you know, I mean from the non always it and I had no problem getting a job. But up until then. And the police used to say you don't get a job within a week will will will arrest you. So you'd go and you'd find a job and you need to get a job as a Stallman because that's any job that you could get because of yay or lonely or normal. And then they bring it up bring up the job and sale Did you know that you got a job working for You're a thief or whatever? Because I'd stolen food and I'd stolen things to survive you know got punched for them. Yeah. That's stolen from food from shop stolen and stocking. Yeah. And got arrested for those sorts of things and of course so and then they would wait maybe a month sometimes. And then all of you think get home and hi so I've got a job Lisa got so much better. Next thing could you go the office Please go ahead. You're a homosexual I said no, I'm not I'm a sexual. Well, the police have told me you're a thieving homosexual. We don't want people like you here. I said but I'm not going to say yes I did steal was because I couldn't get a job with survival but the last one was that I was still I was there for nearly two months and now I really enjoyed the job was good and and gosh [00:51:19] and [00:51:21] and then my girlfriend and I decided we would go we go to the doll office which used to be in Tori street which was the old doll office from the 30s and they never had the dollar nice days you didn't get the dog they got found you a job. And they found us and we wanted a job so they found that there was no job said but they found this a job and much weaker tobacco picking and that's where we mean and I was there in 1967 for the whole of 67 and that was the year I turned 21 and next year the dollar came and then I was a matchmaker [00:51:55] in the 1960s What was it like to find clothing? We didn't get clothes? [00:52:02] Well, there was a lady by the name of Sylvia who had a secondhand shop and rid of it straight just before you get to the lights and she stumbled upon here one day she was an English lady Winton and are looking at kind of show you like that I said oh yes but it needs outreach oh I do alteration so she I started going to her like everybody I used to if I went somewhere and they were nice to me I would totally I think they will so I so in the end she became very rich through us we all used to go to and then all the ship managers to go there and all the the bills prostitutes used to go there and not all over lesbians which lesbian just to go there and get these suits and everything you know and she would alter it to fit you and everything and yeah that sound oh and you bought bought them as well from the shots but you had to be careful some shots will allow you in the door you know no no you can't come in here and try anything on we don't have your sorta near you was that was what it was like the nice days [00:53:02] What about like an Auckland when when you were a wee bit younger would you get close enough [00:53:05] from friends? I never bought anything in shops today not when I was young I got them from friends the friends I live with they give me some flyers you know and I did have a little stash at stashed up for yeah so yeah batlin [00:53:26] you know you've seen more number of times what the strip mall [00:53:30] you see younger people don't know what that is. I've actually done a thing on net for professor in from Auckland University about back slang because we used to speak gibberish back slang urinary get Gareth a year again Gary get Derek is sure again. Now I'm going to the ship or Trello gonna you know put it in and somewhere along the line and they don't do that anymore Don't use it Bexley and so he's made a lipstick in the bed it's online and shipping girls that used to whether that was a name that was given to them. And they were the girls that used to go on the ships when the ship because you got to remember in the old day ships had a big group. They had a big crew that looked after the ship plus unloading and reloading and you had stewards that looked after the officers nowadays You're lucky if you got four people on the ship because they can Dana's whereas everything was loaded by a debit you know or a crane a hand done crying or someone said and a crane on the wall. Very different now it's all automated and these girls used to go meet these guys on the bus driver which was the old Royal Oak downstairs or whatever and they were semen and these girls would we would meet them and the whole time see people used to think they were prostitutes but really they they weren't they were more escorts and even then it was an unsafe thing with the guy said if a girl went on board with you or stayed with you the time you're import or follow journey Xena the new paid the rent or near bills and supply food and drinks and that's what happened so that would really prostitutes they went with the guy because they liked him they didn't just go with him for the money they went with the guy because they liked him and that was the that was that what you got if you went with a guy it was unsettling thing Seaman would pay for your rent. And they would because you were working you say because you're on the ship with them 24 seven on on short or whatever, or they go back to your place every now and then they might want to come off but they had the weekend off to come off and stay at your place. So they will pay for your food they'll pay for your rent and pay any bills that your head and then they pay for your drinks on board the ship and paid and all your meals for free on the ships and so you know and that's what strip malls were but people presume they were they were prostitutes because they received something and return for being the girlfriend you know i mean you didn't even really have to have sex with them they would still do it anyway you know was just the law of the of the same and they did it anyway. But there's no longer ship Mars hasn't been shipped miles I don't know it's and I lived in 76 and it was dwindling even then you know i don't think there's been ship miles for at least 20 years and of course back slang has gone as well now and that was a thing that was often used on the ship was gibberish and back slang you know and you also had your your head your English back slang which was they would say I'm we're going to go den I'm I'm off day on the frog and toad jump in the gym john, which was down the road jump in the car. And and you know, my what would they call it? My golden and God on the Oliver Twist was your watch on your wrist. I have analysis in Durban which was which was a bourbon apples and pears with the city's going up the apples and pears to crack it for Jay you know, to go Never at all, you know, all things like that, you know, they had their back slang that came from England as well. And rhyming slang these wives. So yeah, that's things are very different. Now very, very different. Very good, very different, very wonderful. But it was, it was, you know, I used to say I wouldn't wish this life upon my worst enemy. Because until I went to Australia and got the money to go and hit my six change, life was very, very hard. I worked three straight jobs and still crafted on a Sunday on my day off to go out and get burst. Because by time you paid your rent and paid your food and paid all your bills, lucky to have $3 Lyft at the end of the week, and I had three jobs, which big new city hotel, it's a as a kitchen hand and in a bar made in a white dress, and then went after that at 11 o'clock at night and worked in in the Sunset Strip or one of those places in the nightclub was awake just two or three or four in the morning. [00:58:16] And I still only have about $3 at the end of the way. So there was like, you know, it was just just seemed impossible, you know, to get ahead to get the money or anything for you know, the thought the thought of having a six change, getting money for it was just almost impossible. You know, [00:58:34] how much will it cost in those days? [00:58:38] Well, I don't know, to be honest, they were doing what I had been pursuing it for many years. I was the first to be to be passed in New Zealand for six change by the Wellington hospital board. which went as far as I think nearly as far as Hastings and wanting to ask what I did get passed by them eventually. That was within interference of Victoria University that my mother got in touch with when after my mom came to stay with me after I got together with my mother back again and when home and she come down when Christmas when after Christmas, and when after Christmas, I go to here and now break pay for it to come down the next anyway, one year she was down and I was I had it from a boyfriend when I was living in a beat search right opposite Salamanca road on the deers. And Mom said to me what all these people different nationalities getting off the bus as walking up Solomon garage at all. They're going to the university, she said, I'll give me the phone book by half an hour and give the phone book and she rings at the university. So I want to speak to the head psychologists and I thought oh my god, she's gonna do something. But of course I knew she couldn't. I was over 21. And she said that I have a daughter who isn't my daughter, that should be my daughter and I want to do something about it. And he said, Well, can you get her a referral from your GP and come and see me. She said what time this afternoon is in? Gosh, you're pushing and she said, Well, I'm back to Auckland next week, you don't want to get the ball rolling. So we went to my doctor got a certificate and went straight up this afternoon and saw the sky. And he was wonderful. He was really, really good. He was the first light that's everyone else had been so down on me. I didn't realize that I was going in lying on a Godiva table at the Wellington hospital at that, they had me in the psycho, psycho, whatever it is psychology, psych, psychiatric part. But psychiatric part also had a part where they did investigations on the brain and everything. So they had a cadaver table and they put a sheet over us to shove me on that but nothing on the sheet I have me and every man and his dog used to come in and touch me and look at me it was absolutely her invitation just like with the tears rolling down my face, because I actually hated anybody looking at me, Danny. And the guy would hit a hole in the wall, he had these big reel tapes. And he was talking about me having a normal disease and muscles like a female or so. But they always just come out and say where advice to you is got high and put on your shorts and have a good game of football because you'll never be a woman. You'll be a drag on society, a drag and maybe darling but not on society. And the more they said that the more it made me determine that they were but I mean, it used to absolutely get me I'd go home absolutely gutted and Borland and lame aftermath. And I've been doing that for nearly 17 1819 2022 about six, seven years before my mother came. And then when mom came and she got in touch with him, and then they started to take notice. And I was passed I was a face to be passed to hit a six change when they got a free clinic neck. Because I was physically and mentally female except for my judgment, Tyler. And I mean to this day, they don't have a free clinic. You know, they do to a year maybe. You know, I did have two appointments to go today. But both times something happened wasn't meant to be. I wasn't meant to have at the I was meant to go to Cairo it was meant to be I was at home, you know? Yes. So yeah. I went to Australia and when I went to Australia, that was when life changed for me. [01:02:29] What You Will you passed [01:02:33] 70 7071 or something like that. Before my mother died? Good mom died and 72. [01:02:44] And that was the first time in New Zealand but somebody had been passed, [01:02:47] passed for a sick, you know, given the hospital border pass somebody? Yeah. Yeah, that was the first time and, and then I went to Australia in 76. And they passed me in a month with all my New Zealand papers, but said I'd have to wait for two or three years because I was a New Zealand citizen. But I didn't realize until many years later when I spoke to one of these psychotic psychologists and he said, and he happened to drop that as we were messing it and not allowing people of your height to have to be passed. So there again, I was hampered over the not by being New Zealand citizen network they used was because I was too tall as far as I was concerned. Yeah. [01:03:37] One with the amount of different spring tool [01:03:39] I want, as far as I'm concerned, you wouldn't fit in. [01:03:44] You know, to get to them, you had to be able to fit in as you know, it didn't care whether it was they didn't care with it, what made you happy, it's what made the mapping and what made the movie was somebody they could put into society that was unsustainable, this is how they spoke, you must get rid of all your past life and all the friends that you've had, which I could never understand. Because my friends, I've still got them 3040 5060 years later, I've still got the same friends, you must get rid of them. And you must never admit ever, that you were what you were, you never admit it to anybody. And I said, You're a psychologist and you're telling me that I should be saying these things? How can you love somebody and want to spend your life with somebody you don't tell them your pants will know if you do, you'll always be thwarted. And I said well, so it's a lovey, I could not possibly spend my life with someone telling a lie. Well, you have to they that was in there. And that's still I think is the the motto, you you never admit to it. You never say that you've you know, and they wanted me to have voice lessons and all the rest of it. I just want to change what's down there, want to change anything else, I'm happy with who I am. It's us, it's I'm happy, not me. I'm really happy with what's between my legs. You're the one that's unhappy. The rest of me I'm happy. I got lots of boyfriends. I didn't want to say my heaps of money. But I was you know, because I was by being working in as a prostitute and the brothel of my own. It was my own and tuning up to these two. This is before it became my niche. They were doing it it was the Royal, the Royal Hospital royal, the Royal Hospital in Melbourne, Melbourne. And there was a guy who actually it was it was who got head out for paving for the windows and masturbating at our skills. And our I mean, please ask yourself, you know, they didn't want to give me a six change, but they allowed someone like that to go on to be a counselor for people what you know, where is he wouldn't pass him because I was due to all you know, I just didn't understand how I found out as my friend of mine was murdered, and I went to open a book launch for the author that did the book. And she was murdered. And what they found it found is 17 years later years later in the mind shot she said was a key we go and this woman [01:06:24] Her name was Robin both wrote a book justice denied about it. And I've been you know I did a talk for and in the psychologist was there with the girlfriend of mine nice at all, who she and I at the time I was working as a receptionist and I was the first and Melvin to get the licenses. So change the license change. So I could be relieving because you had to tell them a week before you were restriction where you were going and all the rest of it because you had a licensure so you had to be a license. Anyway, I got this, them to change it. So I could be relieving and go and help people when they you know went just one holiday and I also opened brothels for people and and got all the store and got the got it all going and moving and you know, and you all the outlets to get towels and we've seen them to be washed. And we do by this and we divide that and the doc was the first to get a doctor to come to check the girls from Burnet center and what and in Melbourne. And so I was quite well sought after. And I had come from opening this just opening this brothel and I was in a black suit and everything in my briefcase and I will not stop him. And he was quite taken by me, you know, and he said, you know, she she's fantastic and, and Samantha so that's a good friend of mine. Her name's Danny said, Oh, could you introduce me do? And so I was introduced to him. And he said to me, we didn't do you did way and I said no you didn't I was done in Asia. I said no. I was told if I went there, you'd have nothing to do with me. And I sit in my seat. I didn't couldn't care less. And he said no. And that's where he said, you know, in hindsight, we were remiss and not granting permission for people of your stature and height to to to have the six change. He said, because you're just amazing. He said, You're exactly what I'd like to put up and show what can happen to somebody. And he wanted me to join the board and everything you know, I said, well, you're too late. I'll be leaving soon and going back to New Zealand. But he wanted me to join the board. He's now passed away. And he was on there for years. He was a real store ward. He actually came on after I was had gone through the board. He came along little about a year or so later. No. But he was the gym and he was fantastic. He was the only one on the board that stood up for the girls and in saying he wanted them to change the birth certificates and change the passports the others all over interest. And it was making money out of us, you know. [01:09:04] So you had to travel to Egypt [01:09:06] to I went to Egypt. Yeah, I did. I didn't have to, but I did because I wasn't waiting any longer. I promised myself within the year of leaving New Zealand I would have it and if I didn't I was it wasn't I wasn't going to worry better for 17 years of my life that have been the bane of my life trying to get the six change. I was 30 and I still hadn't got it, you know. And so I had girlfriends that have been to Cairo to Professor Beharry. And so I just had already I'd written to lots of doctors. And I'll turn my when I arrived the first of March 1976 and 11:30pm first of March 1976 and tell them Marina airport and Mel Melbourne and I had my six change on the 27th of February 1977 in Cairo, Egypt exactly within the year that I wanted to do everything. Best thing the overdue best place I ever went it was meant to be because as a kid, that was the only Butch thing I used to do except be a cowboy because I had checks on the team that was good but I used to put on the sheet and my father's dressing gown cold and I had that tassels knitting, wrap it around the sheet and get on put the cane on the one hand and get on the straw broom and Tina was on a camera and I was just shaking bare a bit it was the only thing I sort of did because it could have all this flowing shoot around me so so when I was home I got there also learned a bit of Arabic and being a prostitute you learn lots of languages and because I had learned Mowgli when I was young even though I lost a lot of it I still was able to pick up languages very easy so I could speak quite a bit of Arabic When I got there you know and you had to say different things and get different things and understood you know so it was easy peasy for me was the best place I could ever gone August was just one and they treated you wonderfully everybody didn't treat you like freaks I treated you like Allah had made a great big mistake. That's what they said well Allah make big mistake. How can I Allah, it's very strange from your country. All these beautiful girls come and Allah make big mistake with these girls. That's what the people used to say in the hospital. They just couldn't see that we were boys at any time, you know, at all just you know, and there's heaps of us New Zealand girls went there. And all the girls went in the 70s. And he was a fabulous mean absolutely fantastic major feel so at ease, and so wonderful and was the best thing. I had to walk the theater you have to walk to theater. That was another part of his, you know, like he said to me when I arrived and arrived in the morning, I left on a Saturday and arrived in the set day morning and he's written in his office and need to take it to your room and you get Andrew DC then put on your night Jean getting to bead you know, so I got into the beat. And he said straight away he knew I had a boob job. And then as he was walking away, I said to him all I should tell you I have he said I know you're going to say Esmer, my CDs, I've got asthma, and he said I know this ordering and he was he was just amazing, amazing me. And I actually lost my estimate. But after I hit my change, I've got a little bit now but I never hit it near his bed. From the moment I live time that got bigger and bigger and better. Except for Wellington because it was so damn. The wind tries to get a bit sick sometimes, but Wellington was better than Auckland for me with my asthma. And so he knew that he was just amazing. I and I said I've got prostate I You don't have to know this. He was just amazing. And I see tomorrow, can you tell me what it's going to be like really sit and this is wonderful thing. He said to me. It was called me to Mila. He said to me, do me alone. There's nothing I can tell you. You're already there. I said what do you mean? He said, You are already there. This will be just a little, a little thing that will just carry you on your way. And I said I didn't understand. He said, Well, I tell you. I have one coming from Queensland, who's a millionaire, who's in his 50s and has done dressed as a woman on weekends only has a grown up family. And he said, and I am going to do this operation because he wants it so badly. But I believe. And he was the only one that he called he was and he was true eyes. And I believe within a year he will be dead. Because he has not lived as a woman. He's not lived amongst anybody as long. It was true. He was a multi millionaire and a pig farm and American cow family owned. [01:14:00] What do you call them a dress shop, you know, a boutique. He had he was just loaded. He had two adopted children and a wife. And the children grown up and given them a Farm He Had. He had everything set out but within the year, so he went back on the farm as a woman. And no one ever dealt with him as a woman. It was typical shock people couldn't understand. And he expected everybody to just accept Him as Jackie the woman. And they couldn't. It was jack the man that he hadn't even transition. I mean, Yes, he did. He used to fly to Sydney every weekend. He had his own plane and dress up all weekend on and go out and Sydney, but he never actually transitioned and where he came from and Queensland and, and I found that he later he did die, he did kill himself. So perhaps he was right. I said, Well, why are you going to do it? He said, If I don't somebody else will. He said but that is the difference between New and distressing. I knew exactly what he said because I went out with her. And another two girls was already one girl from Sydney. And another one time was a nurse and she'd been a male nurse but transition to the job and they accepted do it at private hospital. And suddenly, her name was Jackie to funnily enough, and she'd answered an ad in the paper saying that a person there was a person wanting to go to Egypt to Cairo for an operation. And she knew exactly what it was because she'd been there herself. And funnily enough, she'd had a little bit of trouble. She had a scar on the inside of her vagina. And she was going to have it fixed which for her, he fixed it for nothing for when he found out because she'd had a little bit of an infection. And they had david anyway. And she wouldn't accept the money. She wanted to pay him with the money that she got from going with Jackie. And then there was another girl there already before and her name was Laura. And she'd been there six days before me from Sydney. And anyway, when I got out of bed after we were 10 days and BC after I got out there we decided we were going out for lunch and we were going to the Hilton hotel for last. And this other the one from Queensland and mustard, she looked like a woman she was a little bit horsey ish, beautiful eyes, beautiful color gray here natural. She looked like one of those. Talk those women and they got money from America. You know, there's one's a bit horsey lunch, you know, until she opened her mouth. And and the way she walked a bit too. And we get to the Hilton Hotel and forget, and the guys pushing in a chair to serve to sit down the waiter NGOs. All right. Good steak. And I just about fell through the site. And I just read and I remember what Barry said, you know that that that I was there in and these this person older than me and everything and should be wiser than I was and wasn't at all you know? So I understood exactly what he meant. But at the beginning when he first said it I didn't understand when he kept saying that but you are there you know. So that was to me later I realized that was a great compliment that paid me you know saying you are already there. There's nothing for me to tell you. It'll be just feelings as such. He says just feelings as such will be different. [01:17:09] So did you travel to Egypt by yourself? [01:17:11] Yep. Yeah, I did. [01:17:15] I intend Jada Tina to Well, I was somebody was going to come with me at one part of it. But I'd already booked myself and everything. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was was nothing going to stop me. And she was supposed to come and his mother got hit. And she came back to New Zealand and the brother got killed and the mother was in hospital. This girl. And she arrived back two days before I was ready to go to Egypt. And she begged me to wait one more week. And she said because and I'll have the money to go and I said no, no, no way. I nothing will stop me This is that's booked everything is it? And there's no way I'm stopping for anybody. And I and I left I went on my own. But it was fantastic. I mean, there was all other girls have been before me. So I knew a lot about it. You know, so I knew about it. And, and Professor Bihari was just amazing. And sister Leah, and there were just amazing people just amazing. And it's funny, you know, he had a granddaughter. I knew that he had a son that was a dentist, and he had a daughter that was a doctor and she became a professor and doctor and he became the son was a professor in dentistry. And I got a phone call from Australia couple years ago before and it was a friend of mine who had heard change before me by the name of honey and this girl have gotten in touch with it and she was actually excuse me for her his granddaughter. And she was a gay girl. And it had to tweak to her imagination. They had found in his drawer in his desk when he died he died when he was 80 so it was 60 something when he did me and they need to know that he'd been doing six change operations in years. They used to announce us on the radio and everything and say our special guests from Australia or wherever professor but how special guest you know they play the bloody Tommy kangaroo down I said [01:19:04] I'm not a nauseum okay well that right now is the hour [01:19:07] but anyway um [01:19:11] yeah, Sheepshead Bay never knew that he'd done these operations you don't need them one Egypt Shingo and they didn't introduce me to his that's a whole story on its own. Egypt was amazing. And, and she got in touch with with Henny, and he got in touch with me and she was going to do it. Again, do a documentary on them, because she found all religious and photos in his drawer. And I didn't know and I said all what [01:19:39] I knew that he had [01:19:41] a mother. I see [01:19:44] a doctor, a daughter that was a doctor [01:19:46] and a professor. And I knew that he had a son that was a dentist and a professional. You said the doctor is my mother. And and she said we knew nothing about it. But we read all these beautiful ladies. And so all these photos and things she did and it's you know and so I want to do a documentary about him because I did not know that he did those sort operate. They knew about him that he was quite It was very famous plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon. He did a lot of that. But they didn't know that he'd been doing six changes as well. He was doing them 14 years before I went. And he told me how he first started and everything to very amazing business story. And I was there for longer than usual because they were at the time they were having trouble with Israel and what we're having now and and I met Sadat and everything THROUGH THROUGH THROUGH Bihari took me to meet their house and I and they were having at the time, the first Arab summit meeting ever for the IE, which is the UAE United Arab Emirates. And what's his name, Muldoon was there? And I met Loudoun, and he was told watch his mouth and keep his hands to himself and in Egypt because he you know, he's a bit layout and touching women and then just unheard of a nice stage, you know, and he introduced me to him and he said to me, but how does it all this demeanor Jamila, this is a man from your country is named Robert Mauldin. [01:21:16] I said, I know yours. [01:21:19] Are there actually [01:21:20] voted for the first time of my life was when I was voting against him. And I left the country not long after he got in actually. The next year got it at the end of I think like November or December whenever it is, and the next year I lived and he said to me, oh, and done a guy this is this is, [01:21:38] this is no trick. And when did you [01:21:40] leave New Zealand? I said when you got into power, and he went on, [01:21:44] but sign it and then went for about 10 or 1520 minutes and he got and when do you think you'll be going back to [01:21:50] New Zealand and I said when you get out of power, please excuse me. I'm [01:21:54] just going to paddle my nose. I do hope you'll find another seat. But I'm sorry, dude. I don't want to sit next to it. When I came back for her is pushing my cheer. And he goes do Mila you were very hard on him. I said well put it this way. Did you like NASA? He said, Oh, I understand perfect yesterday. And even nothing Martini place for two hours. [01:22:16] He was gone when I come back. Yeah, no, I don't want to talk to him. I didn't like him. But actually I got to like him no longer I was away the more I got to live. Can you see I didn't because I'm very Molly orientated because I grew up with them. And and when he said we're going to see in the Murray kids back to the MRI, everybody took umbrage Jeanette, and yet he was right. He was right. We all took umbrage that we all said Oh, Audi's like that. And now when you look back on it, he was right. Because if you had sent those kids home to the Mirage, the elders would have made sure that they behave themselves. [01:22:52] So he actually was right. [01:22:54] But at the time we were we were all because he was course it was his was his. It was his abrasive ways as well, I think because actually, he ended up being liked by all of the maladies in the end, you know, and the games and all and there's and the guys on the bikes and all the rest of it. They quite respected him because he was he actually was better than it was just his obtrusive way about him. You know, he was, yeah. But me. So that was another story. When I was the meeting him, you know, [01:23:27] and I meet on my Sadat, and he told me, he would be murdered. [01:23:31] He said, I would not be surprised if I'm not assassinated. And I said, why he said, because I'm brokering peace between Egypt and Israel. [01:23:41] And I will be hated by [01:23:43] my Arab neighbors, but I do not want my country in turmoil. [01:23:47] And at the time, [01:23:49] I only saw two beggars on the street, all the rest of them he got that was the first place I'd ever seen people washing windows of cars. Now this is 1977. And they would wash your windows with a regular backers. And you pay them if you wanted to, if you didn't, they didn't arrest you, for you bought lily of the valley on a little cord that you put around your neck, they made fans out of the forms of the palms and put it together with stringy stuff they made from out of pounds and net and made rope like we make it out about a good game. They made it out of their way. And they made little fans that were all cut out and you can buy for like a PS there, which is like half a scene, you know, it was very cheap. Emily, the valley, they were all selling making things and selling. And that's what Siddhartha done, he wanted people, they might be poor, but you don't have to just sit there with your hand out, try and do something to make your make money. And I saw one old lady that was half blind with a baby. And I saw a blind mean, and I was actually at Giza, the pyramids. And I was sitting in the car, and this blind man was feeling his way around the cars. And as he was coming towards the back of our car, the driver when the window up and the guy came out, and I went to speak to me, and the guy we passed. And then I said to my dad tell me to be quiet. He see I didn't want him to hear me. And I said, Well, why wouldn't you give him some backstage, but please mean money, you know. And he said, because we don't believe in giving unless you can give for life. Because I wouldn't give to them either. Because I used to see the Yankees, you know, in this Yankee on a throne a few but she still had a few dollars. You know, and I thought all have to meaning you know that we have a yell and draw. And I thought I had to meaning the bed not being poor and asking for a living mind about [01:25:46] Oh, honey, Chuck, I'm a few [01:25:48] pastors, you know, and I thought, Oh, I don't want to do that. I just feel it's and him saying to me, we don't believe in giving unless we can give for the rest of their lives. I understood immediately. [01:26:01] He said, we exactly like [01:26:03] me, if I'd lived there, I would have taken them home and said, Come on, you can be my garden. And you can do this, and I'll feed you and you can sleep in that room for nothing, you know, and that's what people did. They became because not very many, there was no houses on one level. They're all 12345 levels, and you have a great man, the man knocks off the gate, certain dominant jets, you know, normally. And when you come home, you give him a couple of BS, those are Bs, or something for lightning the gate for you or something, you know. And so I know and he said, we only believe I believe he said, because he's, he's hungry, but not as hungry as he was. And if I give him money for food, he will be hungry like he was before. In other words, what he was meaning was to give him something to eat, will make him fall again. And then he'll go through all that pain of being hungry again and starving again until he gets to a stage where he's no longer feeling angry. And I thought, yeah, that's what I like that idea. It's better to take somebody in, then check them a few dollars because you're really not helping you only exasperating it on by just it's only feeding them for one day. It's not getting them out of there might go for another week without a feed because the the Arabs and cells don't give money they do not give it's the it's the tourists that give money. And and the same as when you go to, to a Giza with with the pyramids are those people with all the camels and they're, they're rolling enough? You think they're poor, and they're not poor? Or they're rich? And I was told that by the same guy in the car, he said to me see them? He said they got more money than then then you are put together. He said you don't think they have to babysit, they're all got nice cars and everything. He said they make lots of money being here at this tourist spot. So yeah, so you have was that was i and i Laughter Laughter [01:28:03] So was Egypt in the operation? Was it is you were saying just a small thing? Or was it a big change for you? You know, when the doctor was saying to you obviously just a [01:28:15] was any It was a small change for me? How did you feel I didn't we're going to they're going to have the operation was like Absolutely. I've never felt euphoria like it in my life. Because I knew I was going to get what I wanted what I'm [01:28:30] what I needed. And I had [01:28:33] got to an age I was 30 and I got to that age knowing that it didn't matter. You don't have a six change for a main you don't have it for money, you don't have it for public consumption. You have it for yourself it has to be to make you feel free to make you feel one. I say this to all the girls if you're doing it for somebody else don't do it. You must do it because you want it it's what you and it's what you need for your psyche to feel complete. And I had an injection before are we into not had jitter before the didn't do anything and I was bouncing off the walls. I was so joyous and I was going into all the rooms guy so often there's a bath and Norsemen Good morning I see after delay, which is strange. We'll see you later you know because they spoke French as well. And I walked all the way to theater. And they're all standing and they were khaki they were white it's okra color and they're all standing with their because they will be inscribed in glass Nero standing with their hands like that, you know very much like you see Egyptian mummies that's exactly how they were standing. And I had to get on this table and the table was like a little was a narrow table long and I can remember lying down and by the my mouth was dry and I was my heart was done. I was so excited. And the guy said to me Have you any false teeth now 36 tips and I don't think ever told me they hope it's gonna take my kids out Oh, but they came back with tips and I'm getting I'm getting no use but you're not taking them and he said no no teeth teeth teeth when my mouth was so dry couldn't get a map but anyway got a man and that's the last I remember. I don't remember when I woke up I remember waking up I've got photos and they took of me when I was I woke up was very cold because he he couldn't put my legs and stirrups because he was any he's only a short man himself couldn't get past my legs because they were too long so I had to drop my legs at the bottom and of course my circulation went on me and everything and I died on the table but they put me back but I wake up I was freezing cold when I came to I was absolutely freezing shattering all live and I'd like bet 10 hot water bottles about 14 blankets all over the world ponder and yeah but I was fine tonight the key to my drop my teeth in and read majority but majority Reagan was fine. I was fine. I didn't was funny it was like because your team days and bead and they put me on morphine and morphine made me speed off my tits I was off my face couldn't go to sleep. I was waxing my legs because you see having a having an acidic makes the hairs on your body when I was waxing [01:31:27] my legs [01:31:28] at my child as well that I never grow and everything and then on the third day I was really really a grow was very take she uncomfortable at sore back because I couldn't sleep but all the rest of it and and the nest kind of give me a ditch and a nice days in Egypt they still use the glass [01:31:53] glass [01:31:56] syringe and the needle and the needle on the ninja gentlemen [01:31:59] every morning they come and give me three injections. And this morning she jams it into my ass. And I hated them. You know not when I when I've had other injections. I hadn't injections for years because I love them because I had them as a job for penicillin. And when I went to have injections to go over season never had the hurt that was so fine. They were disposable. But they didn't have disposable ones at that time over there. It says she jabs me in the ass and it's stuck there. [01:32:30] pose a syringe up in the needles, the lonely and she pulls it out and she's shouting on the side of the glass. You know and I [01:32:43] don't want any more injections, given the face of a hurry. So he came to see me and I said I don't want any more needles. I don't need them. He said Oh, but Jim. I said what are they said one is morphine as he will that's why I can't sleep. And he see why are you allergic to I said I don't know I've never had it but I haven't slept for three days. I'm just about going mad. [01:33:04] And he said then I said what's [01:33:07] the other two? He said one is an antibiotic. I said why said and you know all the years that I hear you brought us for my asthma and my chest infection. They never told me I should take multivitamins and minerals because that's what antibiotics do they deplete your body. He said because your body is depleted of minerals and vitamins because of the antibiotics you have to have them and ever had they said well I don't know why you don't get them in Australia, but this is what you must do with enterprise and the other one was that was the antibiotics and the other one was a multivitamin. I said well I don't need them. I don't need that morphine I'm not in pain. I don't need the antibiotic and I don't need them you can give me those in pills counter and he said yes so they gave me the pills because he said otherwise you'll get a slight infection well sure enough two days later I had a little slight and fiction say gave me some antibiotics by pills it was gone just a slight and fiction around the stitches didn't even come to anything was you know and so I never had needles after that. And he gave me this poem never forget these pills are like horse tablet and I slept for and I mean what's a 901 she wanted one will not carry out for 12 as any knocked me out for five [01:34:23] ride a bike five [01:34:24] hours later, but I was beat a foot because I did a good sale to sleep you know. But yeah. [01:34:32] So [01:34:35] and then I came home but I was lucky I was there for more than usual because of us it because of and also the Shah of Iran was having the longest reigning monarch he was celebrating net and they were they were having Queen and Prince Philip were coming in and let na in and Charles and they've never had all that many Royals together coming out of the country. And always so when I when I wait to Egypt, all the way along, they were guys with guns on the shoulders. But no, or when I was coming back, they had the gun, all of them had their guns coughed and loaded. Right through as far as [01:35:14] Asia. Yeah. [01:35:16] And, but I was there for nearly two months instead of only a month, because I couldn't get a plane out. And so it was I was four days in transit. Because they could only fly you at night. Because it was no fighting at night and those days. And so they would fly you at night to the nearest destination and you'd stay there and all day. It's bloody important on evening and then they fly to the next destination with Ron and all sorts of places, you know, on the way back? [01:35:47] How did the operation change you in terms of kind of within yourself? [01:35:52] made me strong? Maybe become me. I was finally down at the prison I needed to be wanted to be I was from a non awkward stand up and say, No, you can't do this to me. No, I'm not a bad person. Now I'm not gonna take your, you know, like, we got jobs. And when we did get jobs working, we got the poorest of wages working in nightclubs in there and treated like shirt. We really do we, I mean, you know, be grateful you got a job and this is what you get $17 a week or something you know, and you work your butt off as a waitress or whatever. I mean, I think the strippers are getting $3 a strip or something, you know, the girls that were strippers, what it did to me, it completed me I was complete. I was to me, I always say Egypt was my birthplace. You know, Cairo was my birthday. I didn't change the way I felt at all. I felt no different. I'm no different as a person, all my friends will tell you that. Even the ones that knew me before my changes, I'm no different. But it made me stronger as a person. I began to realize that now I'm, I am God, I'm not afraid. I'm no different to the next person. In fact, I might be better than that person. And also that I wasn't going to be staying to be pushed around anymore by people and be just grateful you've given me a job. Now I'm good at my job. And if you don't want to pay me probably will I'll go somewhere that will you know, so. That's what it did. For me. It completed me It made me become who I who I am today. I don't think I was any different. I was just a little bit more. I was more timid. You know, like, when somebody yelled at Oh, you're a main. You You felt inside that you were because you still were whereas it was years later, somebody said it to me like I think it was like 10 years after I had my changes. Somebody said you address that laughing when they said oh, you're a man, you know, I just laughed. It means nothing to me. It just rolled off my back like water. Whereas before I had my change. You knew what they were saying was right deep down. Even though they didn't know. They didn't know they were only guessing you know, like I said, you know, they don't know what's in your pants only you know what's in your try? Nobody else knows. They just surmising but because you knew what they're saying was right. That's that you felt bad if it made you feel duty, you know, made you feel like you were and so after my change what it did for me was just made me who I be happy. You know, be it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

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