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Vicki-Anne Heikell and Bronwyn Officer - Creating Our Stories [AI Text]

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I'm Vicky Anne, and I'm a paper conservator by training. I currently work at the National Library as a field conservator. So my role is to advise, um organisations and institutions, um, on the preservation of their documentary heritage collections. I'm Bronwyn Officer, and, um, I'm the senior sound conservator at the Alexander Turnbull Library, part of the National Library. And, um, my background [00:00:30] is in, um, music composition and audio visual management and, um, 25 years experience, uh, working in the Alexander Turnbull Library, preserving the sound collections, which means working with curators to, um to store and, um, transfer sound recordings now into a digital medium. Can you tell me the difference between what preservation is and what conservation is? I [00:01:00] guess preservation is that broader context, and it's all the steps you take to minimise deterioration. So how you store it, the record keeping systems, you use any policies related to access and display and disaster planning. So, in a sense, conservation falls under the preservation umbrella, and it's and conservation is more about determining, um, priorities for setting the condition of items and repairing and conserving them. I would agree with [00:01:30] that, and, um, just incidentally, um, restoration is, is about restoring an item to its original condition, but it's not usually practised in the library and archive preservation, since it it can destroy some of the, you know, essential, um, historic information, um, related to a subject. For example, we have some recordings that are made on tape of a cylinder and the cylinder [00:02:00] that, um, had a a swishing of the stylus so that on the tape you wouldn't expect to hear that. But if you if you remove that for some reason, then you wouldn't know it's background or its provenance, just keeping with definitions for a minute. Can you tell me what the difference is between, say, an archive, a library and a museum? And that's a hard one, because they often appear to be similar repositories. So this is kind of a personal, um, definition. [00:02:30] I always think of an archive as material that's, um, created or received by a person or a family or an organisation, and it can be in the written form. It can be paper documents, but also audio visual material, um, textiles, three dimensional objects, and I see a museum as a place that's devoted more actively to acquiring, conserving, um, in the study of objects or that have the scientific and historic and artistic value. So they're similar, but different, I think [00:03:00] I don't know. Hm. I think, um, and there are different types of libraries as well. Um, for example, you have a lending library, uh, like a public library. And you can also have a research library which performs a different function. So the Alexander to library performs more of a research library function, and I guess similarly, you can have, um you know, uh, in the course of business and a business creates their own archives, the museum can have an archive. Um, and you know, [00:03:30] people and, um organisations and clubs. So there's no real clear definition between what the three are, Um, not in my opinion. I know there's specific functions and, um, you know, like a government archive has very specific functions under the Public Records Act. Um, and, um, a national museum has, um, specific functions in the sense that it it collects, um, objects of scientific, historical and artistic [00:04:00] value to the nation, and more broadly, but yes, those are things that, um, curators and archivists would have more of an opinion on probably than a conservator. So say I'm a queer individual or I'm part of a some kind of queer group and we've got material. Do you think it's better to kind of archive that material in house, you know, as in the organisation? Or actually give it to, um, some other archive [00:04:30] or or library? If you were donating it elsewhere, what kind of things would you be thinking of? Well, as as a conservator, if somebody came to me with the material, the first thing I'd be asking is, Do you have a right to make decisions about this material? So do you own the material? Do you have the right to, um, make decisions about it, or even deposit it or lend it to anybody? For me, that's the biggest, um, things and also who [00:05:00] you are as an organisation. Um, you know, do you want to be donating it to a to a larger institution? And, um, will you still want some connection and how how are you going to maintain that? And how are you, you know, and it's your relationship with those, uh, those institutions. That's the most important. So I guess before you donate things, you'd probably be wanting to develop the relationship with the key people who will be responsible for the care and preservation and maintaining that collection. In the first [00:05:30] instance, you also have to be aware that the key people may leave and you have to think of the long term. And how is that relationship going to continue? And that they and those institutions may also have a particular focus that that might not be yours and for example, uh, exhibiting it? They may have a particular, uh, view on how they might want to exhibit it, and they might have a particular view on who they want to, um, lend it to. So those [00:06:00] are things you need to have clear in your, um, clear before you donate the material. Not, um, after because once once it's donated those things, those relate those negotiations. I guess the power construct changes slightly, in my opinion. So in the New Zealand context, what kind of organisations are out there that would accept, um, queer related material I, I don't know as a conservator and and and I guess part of my role as a field conservator is that I talk with organisations [00:06:30] with a view to them preserving and keeping the material themselves rather than, um, donating to, uh, larger institutions or archives. Well, the Lesbian and gay Archives of New Zealand leggings, um, would be one group. So the there's the Lesbian Gay Archives of New Zealand, which are what specifically for queer content. Are there other [00:07:00] places like, um, and that that have, um te papa has, um, collections of queer material. I don't know that it's held together as a queer, um, collection. Um, it's, um it's a curator of history that is responsible for the acquisition of that, but I don't know, um, I also don't know how it's catalogued in terms of, um whether if you were searching for it, it would come up as a discrete collection or just part of the history [00:07:30] collection within Papa. But, um, yes, so they have ephemera. They have, um, holds collections from the hero parade and things like that. But I don't know if it's, you know, housed as a as a discrete collection. And there's the Charlotte Museum up in Auckland. That is, uh, that's specifically lesbian, isn't it? Yes, specifically lesbian and the and [00:08:00] legs. Um, it's not just lesbian and gay, but, um, covers material. Um, from all of the communities. What are some of the benefits of? Even though, um, things might be a bit more dispersed in a larger place. Say, like, Papa, what would be some of the benefits of depositing with a larger organisation? It would come under, um, the [00:08:30] collection management process, which would involve storage and and access to, um, controlled environments for the particular materials and just the whole collection management process. Um, and they are collecting organisations. So they have staff whose business is about, uh, collecting and maintaining those, um, collections. And I guess, um, the the appropriate environmental conditions and, um, the [00:09:00] policies which cover those collections. So it's a lot. It's a lot harder to de accession, um, collection items or, you know, get rid of collections once they're in a collecting organisation than if you were doing it to yourself. And what about, um, some of the benefits of donating something to say, like the Charlotte Museum or Lesbian and Gay Archives of New Zealand? That those kind of niche archives or museums? What would be some of the benefits. [00:09:30] I guess your collection is then within a continuum of a of A, you know, a lesbian archive or a lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender archive. Um, and so you can see how your collection fits within the wider New Zealand and international context. I guess if you didn't think it was such a good idea to donate your collection to another organisation and you wanted to keep it yourself or within your organisation, what would be some of the things that you would need to think about? I guess [00:10:00] even the smallest archive or the smallest collection, and you've made a decision to keep it, uh, keep it together. Uh, it needs a policy every small, no matter how small. Um, and it might be as simple as why does this collection exist? What's the purpose of your, um, archive? Because if you don't know that, then you know you're then open for it, becoming either something else or dispersing and not being an archive at all. So that would be the key thing [00:10:30] for me. And I have this little mantra. I often say to groups, uh, the other things you need to think about is, um, I guess your collection. If it's once you've decided you're an archive, what invariably happens is that your collection will grow so you might have five boxes in year one. It's likely because you've decided to become an archive that you will grow and you have to be aware of that. And you have the My little mantra is control, [00:11:00] content and condition. If you're going to set up an archive, you need to know what you have. So that's the control. It's good record keeping. You need to know what's in it. The better the records, the better preserved they are. So this is from a conservation point of view and, um, the condition of those, um, works. So the range of things and items and and all of that again relates to your policy, Because why why do you exist? And what's the purpose? You might want to actively start retaining or acquiring things, so you need to know what you've already got in order [00:11:30] to make those decisions in your experience. Why do people want to set up archives? Because they believe they're important? They believe they're important to their community of interest, but they also believe they have a uh uh, they're important to a wider context. So and I think that they're they're both memory keepers and pointers to the future. I guess so They're, um, like just said it a, um at a recent conference that, um, [00:12:00] archives are their, um, profits of the future. And they kind of do act like that because you you go forward by looking back. So I think that's probably one of the key reasons most people want to keep things generally. So within that foundation policy, what kind of language do you use? Is it quite broad or is it very specific? Gosh, that's a big question. I think it's things that we grapple with as large organisations about collection policies. But I think, [00:12:30] uh uh by answering, I guess in a simple way. First, why do you exist? And then from then, everything else, um, should fall. But you do have to get down eventually to the specifics. So why are you collecting certain materials or why are you not collecting certain materials? Because that's important because there's certain sensitivities around things like that, and I guess the only thing I would suggest is that you make friends with people who are doing similar [00:13:00] things and you look at other people's policies because there's there's general principles you want to apply. And then there's things specific to your organisation. So yes, make lots of friends with people like the sole archivists group with community archives, with all of those people who have people who have expertise and experience and in doing similar things, setting up archives and running them. And your experience is that quite a hard process to go through for organisations to actually kind of work out why they're there, why [00:13:30] they're doing something. What, what they want to hold on to? Yes, and And I guess because it also, um, it's something you have to constantly, um, revisit and revise because sometimes it changes over, you know, 10, 20 years, and you have to keep reviewing what it is you've you've done. And also particularly with small organisations, you often have a turnover of and and typically volunteers have a turnover of volunteers. You have to kind of continue to review the material. [00:14:00] You review your policies to make sure it is what you you know. It's very easy to say, Oh, well, we'll take this material as well. And very soon you've got this kind of large collection with no particular Um, focus. That's not to say you are so focused that you don't you you dismiss other collections, but you've got to have, I guess, archivists and curators of a particular mind that they know how to determine what what are the important things to retain. It's good to [00:14:30] have that written down as a as a policy. And, um and you may, um, I. I like the idea of making friends because you might may find that your collection overlaps some other collections, and you may have to say no to some things. It's yes. And it's something that the, um, national institutions do quite regularly. You know, they they keep in contact with each other. They know what the other is acquiring because you don't want to be competing. [00:15:00] You know, there's only a small resource for, um, you know, for maintaining your archives and you don't want to be collecting things that other organisations are already collecting as well. So at the start, how do you focus down your collection? What? What you're going to collect. How do you work out what you want to collect? Well, presumably it's if you you've decided to There must be some sort of, um, a focus to it already under the bed. [00:15:30] The boxes under the bed may relate to a particular person or a family or an organisation. So you've got the basis for looking at what you are as an archive or if you're the you know, um, and what your purpose was. So and some of that collecting, particularly by people, is very idiosyncratic. But it's then the archive of this particular person or this group. So you have usually when you've made the decision to become an archive. You you you know what? You It's just about Nutting out the the purpose and the written down form, I guess. [00:16:00] What kind of things do people collect? Everything they do, they collect everything. Um, um, I know that some people I've worked with have collected a range of paper bags from department stores from, you know, the, um 19 fifties right through to to now the, you know, the the branding. And so they become interesting collections in themselves, and sometimes those collections become interesting for other reasons, or people have collected badges and pins [00:16:30] from things and t-shirt T-shirts wigs very popular. So there's all there's a whole range, and it's, you know, it said human Endeavour of keeping something because it triggers a memory. I guess you mentioned the word resource before, and I'm thinking that kind of resourcing an archive, even if it's really small, can be really resource hungry, both in terms of people and money. Do you have any tips for [00:17:00] when you're first starting out to work out how much something is going to cost, Um, how much time it's going to take? Um, I guess if you realise you're never going to have enough money and you and there's always going to be less people than you, ideally would want to do the work and you and that you approach it by taking small bites at it and that you're there for the long haul. Once you've decided to create an archive, you're there. You've made the decision that you're there for the long haul. It's not a, you know, two years, [00:17:30] three years, five years. It is a longer 50 60 years, at least, and if it's if And I guess some of those are the Those are the questions you have to ask, too, when you're thinking about should we donate this material as well? And it might be that the decision in 50 years with your archive is that it will be there's no longer the people and resource to, um to continue it. Then it goes to a to a larger institution if they want it. But I guess planning is the key. [00:18:00] Um, you identify that you you can only do small bits at a time and be satisfied with that because often people get demoralised that they can't do everything. And again, these will be most likely volunteers, people giving of their time and around their, um, normal life, you know, their work and other things. So you're there for the long haul, and you're never gonna have enough money. But there are people again making friends. And there are people in institutions who can, um, assist you to, [00:18:30] you know, minimise the the work load. Depressing. And but those simple things of just starting to maybe even rehouse or just order the collection can be quite satisfying. Yeah, so not so demoralising. Yes. So do you think it's good to have, like, in your kind of policies, that the fact that it's going to be there for a long time, if not forever [00:19:00] but that you're actually working in kind of bite size chunks? So you do like, what kind of project by project type things? Um, I think you should have an overall strategy and that you plan it. And as Bronwyn said something like, um, putting your collection into folders or boxes or housing them. We you know, we call it phased housing or phased rehousing. You might decide that in your 10 boxes that box two and six are your most important. So in year one, you're going [00:19:30] to, um, put all of those ones into new folders, and you can work in over five years. You'll have all your 10 boxes rehoused so that you don't come in and think, Oh, I've done nothing with this collection and because what happens is that people think, Oh, no, I'm not doing the best for my collection, and it kind of sits there on the shelf, yelling at them or sits in under the bed, yelling at them so it's just, but your overall strategy is that you have better storage, and so you take bite sized, and [00:20:00] I prefer that approach and often the project approach. Sometimes you'll finish one project, and that's it. But if you have an overall plan, you can slowly work away small bits of it and then galvanise the, um, I guess the expertise of your volunteers. And it might be that those people are different for different. Uh, some people are better at fundraising and raising awareness. Some people prefer, you know, um, things like registering the collection and being quite methodical about, um, their record keeping [00:20:30] and others like practical things. So it is about there is always a role for everybody, and it's just organising that having a plan and having a plan. And that's again where your policy is that, um, some people, too, are overwhelmed by the the word policy. So it's just some simple strategies for keeping your, um, collection in a reasonable order, um, and ways to approach that over a long term to get in the best order possible [00:21:00] in the best condition possible. And you mentioned storage and we hadn't actually touched on you know, how do you store material when you're first starting out? What are the things that you think of in terms of storage space? What do you look for? Well, I'd go on the principle that it will always be bigger than you think you need. So So, um and and that's for two reasons. Uh, one. Often, the way you've currently got it stored isn't the most ideal. So you immediately will be doubling [00:21:30] it. You know, all your folded bits of, um, paper may need to be unfolded, and you've immediately doubled your, um, space requirements. And also often, when you become an archive, you then start to grow the collection. So you have to take make allowances for, you know, at least 10 years. It's something that the libraries, you know. But part of the reason we have had this, um, renovation is to accommodate growing collections. So expansion expense. So that's really important. Um, [00:22:00] yes. So we can talk about the types of spaces that you need. You mean in terms of, um, a dry environment and, um, well, for all collections, but particularly audio visual collections. I know we talk about, uh, ideal temperature and relative humidity. But, um, the stability of the the temperature and relative humidity is is more important. Yeah, so it's avoiding those fluctuations. [00:22:30] They're the most damaging to collections. And I suppose if you think about what we prefer, um, you know, as people, we prefer it when it's not too hot or too cold. Um, then usually that's OK for your collections as well, But, I mean, there's other things to think about to pre preferably um, you want it. You don't want your collections under the bed or in ceilings or in basements. You want them up off the floor and you want them [00:23:00] away from a wall. Preferably. You want any shelving to be on an internal wall rather than an external wall. But if you've got no choice, then you needed at least 30 centimetre 10 centimetres to 30 centimetres away from the wall. And the idea of that is that you get circulating air. The circulating air keeps your your your environmental conditions as stable as possible. And is that the reason why you wouldn't put it under a bed or in the basement or in the roof? So if you think [00:23:30] about it in the ceiling is, um, usually warm or damp and under the bed or in the garage or the least ideal places and and the damp. The thing about the damp is that you you raise your humidity, you've got more potential for mould. You've also got the warm, those warm places, insects like and so they'll come in the moisture. Also, if you if you've got a dusty environment that attracts moisture, you know, So you just want a clean space with, um, good circulating air and a stable temperature. So not to [00:24:00] be caught up in the notion that you need, um, expensive, um, air conditioning or dehumidifiers. The idea is to have a clean room that's hopefully well insulated that, um, doesn't get any external light, preferably and take it from there. And remembering, too that as a as a buffer to the environment, you can house your materials in many different layers. For instance, a cassette is inside a cassette box, maybe [00:24:30] in a in another box or on a shelf. Um, so that if you do have some small fluctuations, then they're protected by the layers that they have around them. Yes, so, yes, if you imagine that each container as buffers it from the external environment. And it's one of the reasons we always suggest to people that it's always better to have your collection some sort of box than a no box or no container at all. Because [00:25:00] if you imagine, then that the the box that you store it and doing all the work and not the original item. So, um, and ideally there's some. There's two schools of thought. Ideally, you want your say, um, a manuscript or a piece of paper. The the folder in direct contact with it is the one to be of the highest quality or conservation quality, and then you can move on with your folders and boxes, so that's one school of thought. But if you've got a huge collection, it might be that you start [00:25:30] just putting things in boxes. If that's all you can afford. And whatever the boxes, and so long as it's neatly put in the box and that box on a shelf and on a wall that would also, um, increase the life span of your archives 10 to 100 fold in terms of boxes. Is there any difference between having something in, say, some kind of plastic container as opposed to, say, a cardboard box. Uh, it depends What sort of plastic and what sort of cardboard. So, I mean, [00:26:00] I would avoid, um, anything that's PV C I would avoid. And, um, I wouldn't laminate anything because lamination Except, you know, if you don't wish to keep it, then you know your posters. You could I Although even then, it might be that in the future, those are important, Um, works. So I wouldn't laminate anything. Anything that's in, um, P avoid PV C plastics, and you'd want to be going for things. That, and you can get them now. Even places like warehouse stationery. [00:26:30] If they say polyethylene or polypropylene are, um uh, neutral. I guess you'd call it S. All plastics do degrade, but these are more and not to seal, um, things into, um, or they do still need to have a bit of, um, circulating air. You don't want to create a little micro environment where they can marinate away, um, boxes [00:27:00] and folders. You'd be looking at conservation quality, and they have names like acid free PH neutral. There's other products with free typically the boxes that are brown, anything that's brown is acidic, and that's because it's, um it's wood pulp paper and it's the craft paper and it's the last. It's a step before they bleach it to make it white. So But I guess if you approach storage, you're looking at good, better best. So you have good storage is putting things in [00:27:30] in their boxes and in folders, and this is all again about your planning. So it might be Year one. You've got all of these collections. You might put them in a box, and next year you might spend $100 to get some good quality folders. Year two. So it's a better storage, and then, you know, year 10, you've got your collection rehoused in the best possible manner. What would some of the things be to look out for if you had a collection stored over a number of years? And you maybe saw [00:28:00] mould or whatever other other kind of visual signs that you could say? Oh, that that thing was kind of degrading, or that plastics melting into this document. All this They call it the Agents of Deterioration, Agents of Deterioration There's two things you you're dealing with. Um, typically, um, contemporary archives, Um will be typically, um, wood pulp paper for the paper stuff. And inherently poor quality materials have [00:28:30] been used to make things. So I was Oh, this is where I like to say. Say inherent device. Yes. It's a term we use in conservation and probably other places, too suffering from inherent vice. Um, but, uh, so we're dealing with, um, papers that are inherently poor quality, so we'll degrade anyway. So So that's why we look at good storage, [00:29:00] Uh, good environmental conditions. So if we can, If we can control those things which we can have the control of, I guess it's about risk management. You can control those things. This bit of paper will last longer than if it's left under the bed and no folder at all. So those things under the bed will degrade, degrade or deteriorate much more quickly than those on a folder in a box on a shelf. So but yes, my, the the the problems [00:29:30] that most afflict collections in New Zealand are insects. We have a, um they love the sort of warm, muggy, temperate climate and um, mould mould you'll get you'll know quite quickly if you've got a mould. If you have a mouldy collection, you want to keep it completely separate from the rest of your collection because it will. It will generate a reaction that kicks off mould and all the rest of the collections the same, uh, with [00:30:00] insects. If you're getting in collections, best to look at them away from the rest of your collection to make sure they don't have insects before you put it in the the The worst thing that can happen is you put, uh, a collection that's come in into your main collection. There's silver fish, usually in them, and that's just a feast for them. The thing about insects is they're nocturnal. You don't know they're there. They wait till you've gone and then they have a party. So I mean, if you could, you could if [00:30:30] if it was possible, you could have an assessment area the way you assess things as they come in so that you're not automatically transferring it to your archive. So I mean, we talked about some of the things to think about with your own archive. It is those. As Bronwyn said. You want a space that has a table so that at the very least, so you can view collections away from your collections. In an ideal world, you'd have those in two separate areas, but at the very least, a table, just [00:31:00] a separation, a separation between where your collection is stored and where you look at collections. And so if new material came in, would you suggest kind of, um, looking at it, but actually also re boxing it so that you're not transferring support? Yes and, um, and talking to the whoever's, um giving you the collection where you're acquiring the collection and where it's been stored. Getting as much information about your collection and the collection you're acquiring is good practise anyway. But from [00:31:30] a preservation point of view, um, sort of avoiding, uh, and it might even be worthwhile keeping those collections out for a while. If they've come from somebody's house that's been damp, you might. You might not see that mould initially, so it might be worth just keeping it out. And And if you've got a room, if your archive has a more stable temperature once the the papers adjust to a stable nonfluctuating environment. Then you shouldn't have a mould problem if you have a mould outbreak in your, um, [00:32:00] archive, it suggests. And if it's if you haven't before, it suggests that there's been some change and you need to find out what that is. It could be something as simple as somebody um knocked over their bottle of water. And that water then has created, uh, you know, just in a small area has changed the environment there. And you might just have one, you know, box, it's got mould, or it's got damp or things like that. So you need to identify where the, um, where the problem has [00:32:30] occurred and then deal with that. Do you have any suggestions in terms of whether, for instance, say paper is laid flat or stood up? Are there are there better ways of storing things horizontal, vertical, ideally all paper flat? I mean, that can be, um, especially and unfolded So large things. Newspapers unfolded. Um, and it can be, though, if if you have, uh, a group of papers [00:33:00] in a folder and that folder can then be stood upright in a box so long as it's got other supporting folders to keep it upright, the same with books like sized books that are in good you know, good to stable condition can sit upright on a shelf, your larger heavy books or your more fragile ones you'd want, um, flat on the shelf and making sure that the shelf accommodates the whole is deep enough for your books and and for your more fragile ones, they would [00:33:30] have their own boxes. The other thing about, um, dealing with the material. You always want to, um, have some other support to carry the material. You don't want your, um, objects having to support their own weight. So when you're taking it off a shelf, it has to either be in a folder or a box, or even if it's a single piece of paper. Placing it on a um on a just a piece of cardboard to carry it somewhere is, is good practise, and that's then those works don't have to support [00:34:00] their own weight. You're looking after them in that way, so, and vertical storage is best for many sound recordings. Um, rather than stacking and flat, Um, that that takes well, make it ensures that there's no extra stress on the, um on the item. So things like C DS you would stack side by side rather than a kind of a vertical tower. Um, well, the vertical towers, they [00:34:30] have little they have. They do have support, I think. Well, the ones that they they're fine in a vertical tower. But, um, as long as they have support and not using each other to support, what about things where you've got, say, newspapers, pressing against each other on, you know, if they're laying flat, does it print through it? Can do, Um, although least likely what you tend to have, [00:35:00] though. You won't want a big for a couple of reasons. You don't want a whole stack of, say, newspapers. Um, stack one on top of the other one. That makes access. Um, difficult. It's always likely that the person wants the bottom newspaper, so that risks damage to your collection. Just retrieving it. Um, but, um, also the pressure from the top. You know, the pressure on the paper does does cause damage, So you probably want to look at um and we haven't talk. We've talked about shelves. We haven't talked about things like [00:35:30] plan drawers and cabinets or, you know, things that archivists that you'd use in your archive, other forms of storage. And also, you probably want to box the newspapers. I guess newspaper is the is the poorest quality paper too. So, yeah, in a small archive, you probably have all those materials together. Probably. But you might want to make some decisions about either, um, having them in a box. So [00:36:00] at least it keeps them slightly, um, separate from your other collections rather than contact with other things. What about other hazards? We talked about things like mould and insects, but are there other hazards you need to look out for? People. These people are the biggest. The the hazard, sometimes out of goodness. But, you know, from all of those things, the way in which we handle material, Um, the [00:36:30] security of the collection, Um, some of the things that we do to the collections mostly through, um, poor handling, accidental damage, and also deliberate, um, damage. And I guess you have to be aware of those things too. For, um, some archives could be targets for some people who would think that have been targets. So, you know, when we think about the security of your archive, there's those things you have to take seriously, too, you know, from protection. [00:37:00] Selecting a room that, um, in a building that, uh, is secure enough that you can lock up at night that is less prone to being vandalised. So it could be an internal room of a building or, um, you know, that's lockable. The windows are lockable, the doors are lockable, so they are things you have to be aware of. What about things like, say, water or pipes going through the room? Or, I mean, do you have to be aware of [00:37:30] that kind of funny that, um more often than not, libraries store their collections in the basement. But, um, all that has changed over the years, and and no being aware of that, um means that you keep them away from the pipes, the essential services and, um, yeah, so off the ground away from pipe, he said earlier, Um, not against an outside war, and and knowing [00:38:00] where the kitchen and bathroom is will tell you where your piping is. So you'd want to be, um, you know, locating your storage ideally, not below the kitchen or bathroom or next door or your shelving up against the wall. That's against where you know the next room is the kitchen or bathroom, where your main pipe would be in a kind of a domestic setting. So, um, and and to think about other things like, um, installing smoke detectors and and [00:38:30] part of the planning could be, too, that eventually this is a working archive. You have to You do have to address the issues of sprinklers and, um, and manual core points to the fire Service and a security system that's monitored those sorts of things. And and And you have to make that decision about in your planning process and what you what sort of archive you are and what sort of risk. Um, you know. So you you I guess you would look at the risks to your collection, and most [00:39:00] often it's dealing with people first, how they handle material, and that's good policy. Or having someone there. Whenever the people access material through to, um, how you access the building, who has access simple things like not having, you know, I've seen a lot of archives that have been destroyed by just simple domestic heaters kept on accidentally left on overnight and the collection's gone. So that's another, I guess. Another point, too, about, um, deciding to have an archive. [00:39:30] You are then centralising this collection in one space. So there's a certain responsibility to that. If you've centralised that you have a responsibility to ensure, because you could end up losing an entire collection an entire history of a particular group, because the collection has been centralised and you know, a fire and it's all gone. So those are some of the things without being scaremonger. You kind of need to think about, too. Are there advantages to having [00:40:00] a collection of multiple locations then? So, like you actually split up the collection? Well, that would have advantages and disadvantages. I think some of the disadvantage might be access and losing collections is if you have one access point and somebody has to retrieve material from different locations, and that suggests that there's a lot more handling of your collection as well. So, um yes. So there are advantages and [00:40:30] disadvantages, but all the key to having it in multiple collections is you have to have a a good intellectual access. You have to know what you have. You can't say. I think it's down the road. You have to know that it's there. You have to know where everything is in relation to the rest of the collection. So in archives I've been into, people are wearing white gloves handling stuff with with white gloves. Why is that? The oil from our hands is acidic, Um, and particularly [00:41:00] in, um and also its protection. Sometimes from some of those older collections, You don't know what they've been treated way. Um, and so the oils are acidic, and you transfer that material to the, um, paper or textiles or documents, But, um, you know, white gloves are good, but always it's an, I guess, an approach. So you want to have good, You want to have clean hands whenever you handle the material. Also for your own health, too. So washing your hands before you deal with the collection and immediately after, [00:41:30] just for your health and for the health of the, um of the objects, so hm hm. Um, and just the oils on the hands can, uh I mean, even if something like it does a record. An LP. If it's not inherently, um, if mould it doesn't find that attractive, it might. It will find the oils in your hands attractive and with sound recordings. You're very dependent on [00:42:00] machines or they're machine readable. They have to be machine readable, Um, so that anything that presents a barrier to, um, how you replay it, it's it's a problem. White gloves aren't always helpful, but there's as Vicky Anne said, um, clean hands are. Mm, when you are holding collections, say, of sound recordings like LP, S or cassettes. [00:42:30] Is it really important as well to have the machines to play that material back on? They are machine dependent, and it's equally important to to have maintained equipment to play them back on. Not just any equipment. Um, yes, which leads on to another whole topic of Do you transfer your collections? And how do you transfer your collections to another form like a A digital form? We'll [00:43:00] get there very shortly. Um, but, um, one thing that we haven't actually touched on that that you've, um, come back to a number of times is that whole um describing of collections describing stuff when somebody gives you some new objects, What are the kind of things that you would be asking a donor in terms of? You know what? What? Where did it come from? What kind of questions? That you'd want to know. The provenance of the item you want to know? Um, you'd want to know about the owner, the owner [00:43:30] who owns it. Were they always the owner or somebody else? The provenance or history of the item? In fact, as much information as you can, because it gives you the context. And, um, often you get one chance at it. So much to get as much information as possible. And, um, you know, good curators and archivists and research librarians know how also, how to ask the right questions to elicit the information. And they probably, um, have all the tricks that conservatives don't. [00:44:00] We're not very good with people. That's why we were good. But when something was created, why it was created just yes, yes, you're right. It's beautiful, really. Um, but it's also that they might have interesting stories to tell about why an object is in the state. It's in as well. And that can be important when you make decisions about what you do with it. So, um, this, um, work has has got dirt or [00:44:30] torn because it was used, you know, there was a meeting and somebody took an exception to something and ripped it. Well, then you wouldn't want to be repairing it because it's its own story. So those sorts of things are very important to know when something comes into your collection as well that that's a really good point to hang on to that, UM, you may only get one chance of finding out about that and that once it's in your collection, it's almost like an orphan, as in terms of, it doesn't have any other context around it. You have [00:45:00] to create that context, and it's a really important thing. And you know, very often large institutions have lonely objects because they don't know the provenance or they've got a donated 1955 and that's all the information, and so that makes it a lot harder. So those very often those objects or collections don't see much research, or they don't see any time exhibited because these people simply don't know about them. So they do become lonely, Um, [00:45:30] objects. Although sometimes they can find their again because, um, someone seen them or or it's a deliberate move on the part of the archive to say, Do you know you know who's in this picture, or can you enhance our record by letting us know? Yes. So I guess, um, the catalogue record or the registration is not a static thing that you keep working on it. And that's your biggest, um, [00:46:00] and keeping the archive. That's what you want to control over as your what you have in the collection and knowing about it, the more you know, the better your archive, I would suggest Do you know of any, uh, resources where somebody could go to actually work out what kind of questions I need to ask in terms of what the object is or what kind of, um, we're talking about metadata, aren't we like we're talking about kind of subject title date? Those kind of things are, are are is this somewhere somebody can go to kind of get those [00:46:30] fields again? I would be making friends, you know, and we're small enough as a, uh as, um, you know New Zealand small enough that we can find those people and and often people, you know, archives. New Zealand has a different approach to how it does things to, say, the Alexander Turnbull Library. So it's getting to know who the curators are and the archivists and the sorts of questions they would ask, as well as kind of maybe doing some courses that are offered by community archives on general principles. But [00:47:00] that's what I would be doing and looking at. And and in fact, even looking at the records that the Turnbull has on, it doesn't have all the information. But it gives certain, um, point as to how things are arranged and described. You think. And there are metadata standards such as Dublin Core, which, um, you can search online, um, to get some. There are many different metadata standards, but you might find something that suits you that has creation date, title [00:47:30] subject, um, fields that you can use. I think I've seen, um, on some sites on the Internet where, um yes, they've got things like DC dot title, and I'm assuming it's under dot title DC dot subject. That's right. That's how it's formulated or hers described. And I think also, if you have an active if you're an A, if you're an archive, is, say, a community, um archive is your organisation to have a, um a current [00:48:00] programme of collecting that information. For example, if you're taking photographs at a function or an event to make sure that you get all the names, which is essentially the method that of those people in there so that you have this approach for your things that aren't in your archive yet but will be so you've got all that information beforehand, so you're not retrospectively having to collect it. I think it's a good practise to and just in terms of Well, I'm not sure if we're talking about digital things here, but, um, [00:48:30] you want to know, uh, what software was used to create something and as much, uh, you want to get as much information about how something was created and what system it was on for its future preservation? Well, you've touched on digitization, and I'm wondering, what are the key elements for digitising, um, an archive. If somebody's got material, I'm thinking that maybe material [00:49:00] that's not already in digital form. So like old photographs or old sound recordings, why do you need to do it and how do you go about doing it? And I'd say 30 questions. I'd say also that, uh, for things like, um, photographs and that the digitised version there's no substitute for the original. I'm just saying that first because often people think that once they've got a digital coffee that the original doesn't need to be cared for. So that would be my first. [00:49:30] And I would agree. Um um, but more and more with, um, sound recordings, uh, we've moved away from trying to prolong the life of the carrier of the content and more to, um, and preserving the data that that that you've created when you've transferred the content. Um, it doesn't mean that you don't still like, look after the, um, original. But the paper will [00:50:00] last hundreds of years, 100 years. But sound recordings won't. So that's that's the problem. Um, we're facing, um, deterioration just through the materials and also the inability to replay them as the as we lose the players or as they become obsolete. And how do you go about transferring them well, you make friends, [00:50:30] we're all about making friends, making friends. But, um uh, you have to you have to be able to replay them and also, um, have a good system. It's a bit hard to say what a good system is, but it's all in the quality of that. Um, the interface, the analogue to the digital. The quality of that determines the quality of your finished product. Is it? Um, I guess some of the principles behind that is it Is it transferring [00:51:00] or trying to do that transfer at the highest possible resolution so that you're not actually losing anything? That's right. You are trying to extract the highest. The the best signal from your from your recording if it's a recording, is to make, um, the highest resolution, as you say, um, recording or photograph and a straight, straight unprocessed, um, transfer. [00:51:30] So you don't want to, um, a bit like the digitising photographs. You don't want to Photoshop, right? Because that's a personal aesthetic, and you don't want to throw through your sound recording. So you, you know, in a in a way that you think sounds better. You could subsequent you can with the um, with what you might call an access copy. But you're wanting a direct path, Um, from the the the, um [00:52:00] the original from the original to the to the copy because that that might provide it might provide. It might be a source of information, too, that you you're not necessarily aware of Of other interesting things a bit like the the recording. So and the same with the photographs. There might be information in there that we don't we don't necessarily see. But somebody else might see, So that's really important. So something like, um the the the type of files that you would save [00:52:30] things as I'm thinking, obviously you don't want to do kind of Photoshop on an image. But then I'm also thinking you may not want to do like saving the image as a JP G, which is a a kind of a lossy format or saving music as an MP3 because you're actually reducing that information. You're saving file size, but you are, and you never, um and you want to get as much information as possible because you're safeguarding its future. So you do want, um um a well uncompressed [00:53:00] or or or not, Data reduced, um, file. So for photography, you'd be looking at the tiff or a raw with some software. However, a lot of the your you might be receiving files that are only in J peg or are not in the highest resolution, but you still have to retain them. The other thing works that you've got Sometimes, um, well, I know in [00:53:30] our library situation, sometimes people have transferred something from an MP3 to a a wave file. But that doesn't mean that it's any better quality. I mean, you want to make create wave files, um, as your preservation file. But if it's come from an MP3 to a wave file, then it's not going to improve the quality. So you can't increase the quality by going from an MP3 to a wave. That's correct. You know, you can't similarly [00:54:00] for photographs, so you can't, um, AJ Peg is never going to be any better saved as a It's always going to be AJ peg. You've already lost either ends of the of the colour spectrum, for example, so is digitization resource hungry? Does it take a lot of time and a lot of people power It takes equipment, people power and time. And so and it doesn't end there because [00:54:30] then you have to safeguard its future. And it has to be a sustainable system that you you set off on. It's a bit like setting up an archive in the first place. It's not just done after a week, you know, it's you have to take responsibility for a day to day and at least plan for its future. Why is that? Why can't I just, you know, put my cassette into a hard drive and just leave it there? [00:55:00] Um, you want to be able to see that it plays after, you know, after a year you want to see if you can play it. And also, you may want to change to another format or another type of hard drive and say, 23 or maybe five years time. So it's an ongoing, um, cycle. Yes, un. Unlike paper that I'd much rather deal with than anything digital, is that sometimes you can see that paper [00:55:30] is deteriorating or you can see, but often with the digital things, you can't see that there's a problem, and so you have a problem of um, equipment becoming obsolete that some zero or one. And the digital file is corrupted. And so you don't know unless you periodically check that these things are still able to operate and just change in systems, too. How would you check what are what are some of the ways to actually check the integrity of files? Um, [00:56:00] I'm just thinking, in the transfer of of files, there are software programmes that can check that you've moved one to another format. Um, uh, a check sum or a fixity check. Um, or just simply by saying this file is this size, Um, and I'm moving it to this place, and it's always better to copy and paste than it is to drag and drop. And, um um because you can lose things or depending [00:56:30] on the software you use. Um, but just by counting well, not literally counting the bytes, but comparing the bytes and to make sure you've made it correct, Um, copy. So again, that's all part of your planning and your planning in your archives that you'll have some sort of, I guess audit for better words to check spot to audit your collection, which you do with your analogue or paper based collections as well. If you were doing an ongoing [00:57:00] migration, how many? What was what would be the time frame that you would migrate? A bit of data? Um, well, I was thinking you should check it, maybe every year to check that you can still play it, um, as Vicky and said, It's very hard. You can't see what's happening. Um, it's also a big investment to to once once your archive gets quite large, because if you're digitising at a higher resolution, you're creating higher files and you're needing more [00:57:30] storage. And so it's quite an undertaking. I mean, I know I've heard of advice being given every five years, but I just worry a little about how fast things change. Not that you you move with every change, but maybe a bit less than every five years, you you're thinking of moving or migrating your your data. Um, another way is or they say, in the [00:58:00] in the industry, that one copy is no copy. Um, and that you should always back up, back up, back up to use a couple of cliches, um, so that if you got even if you've got it on another form, like a DVD or a CD, which we only we don't consider long term storage. Um, medium media. But but those spreading around the copies, um, may may ensure that you have a copy at the end. [00:58:30] I guess also having all those copies in one place, one physical location is not such a good move. I mean, it's a little bit the opposite of what we were talking about before, but to have it in another geographical location and even a lot of the details about your archive. I'm not sure if we're going to talk about, um, just setting up your your file structure now, or, um, just to make [00:59:00] sure that, um, you've made a note of, um, how you've set your your archive up and not just, or even a screenshot of what you've what you've done and keep that documentation somewhere else as well. File structure and kind of naming conventions. Do you have any tips for things that you know won't Well, that will make sense in 100 years time. Um, well, I have heard it said that you should organise your files [00:59:30] as if an alien was to come to your computer and, you know, so that they would then know how you had organised your work. Um, so, um um, just just creating, um, a directory and file structure and files that, um can be that a human readable that you get a lot of information from the naming of a file [01:00:00] just through the title and including a date that can be good to include a date. And, uh, it can be a problem to use, um, certain characters, um, in your file naming such as brackets and asterisks, um, dashes. It's it's easier. Or it's better to use something like an underscore, um, to to cause this or or or nothing at all, you know, to, um, make the separation to make it intelligible. [01:00:30] I'm guessing one of the issues with digitalization is that when you've got physical objects, you've got, say, like a cassette and a cassette box that might have a label. So you've got all that written information. But when you're in the digital environment, you've just got a file name, very, maybe up to 32 characters. And so how do you capture all that other information around that cassette. Um well, [01:01:00] uh, some programmes allow you to put some of that information within the the header of the file within the like to tag the file itself with with written information in certain fields. But you can also just documented in in words, you know, document what you've got and, um, separately from the file. So you can do that. You can do both of those things. One of the things [01:01:30] that strikes me is that if this is, um, not just a volunteer organisation, but even individuals where you start off with a number of objects and you kind of identify them with a number. But then, as years go by, all numbering systems change and I DS change. Do you have any tips for creating kind of unique identifying? I DS for objects and making it easy for people to find in the future. Well, I guess you know, for analogue for paper objects, [01:02:00] you would start with your your simple index or, um, list. And you you could sign a The archivist would be probably better to answer this. But each each series or groups of things have a unique number, and you do have to stick to that. And that's one of the key things in your, um, policy that you do have a A system that's consistent and otherwise. If you then suddenly change numbering systems, then you've you've probably lost control of your of your archive. But, [01:02:30] um, I've dealt with groups with just small collections, a finite collection of four or five boxes. So we've given each box it's a box name, and then it's each group of items and then has a series name. And then they've because sometimes you can't. Collections are too big. You can't give every single thing a number That would be, I guess, possibly ideal but series and file folders and boxes so that you at least have some list. And again, it's about planning. So in year one, we did. [01:03:00] We labelled all the boxes, so our 45 boxes were all then we knew what was in it generally. Then the the next year, it was all the files, and this is as as we house it. So everything got a folder and the folder number and then and onwards and onwards. So it's just I get, and usually the people who want to do that work usually have a sort of a methodical mind, and you probably need to get advice on how to then approach it So you can come to the Turnbull or to community archives, and they probably give [01:03:30] a steer on how you do that. Sort of numbering for digital. It's whole holiday or even for analogue. Um, well, sound recordings you can future proof your your your numbering system by adding zeros like you don't just start to call the first cassette one. You may call it whatever it is the MS C 00001 so that you build in a future for [01:04:00] that series. So when you're digitising those cassettes, say that number sequence you would you would put that into the file that you could do that. Then you'll know exactly what it's been transferred from, and you could put something else like, um, preservation copy or PC preservation. Copy? Um, access Copy. AC. So what does preservation copy mean? What? What is that? [01:04:30] A preservation copy is your highest resolution file that you've created from your analogue object. And and that's, um, the one you look after Well, as well as you would the original item. Um, for it, it'll be quite a large file if you've created it at a large A high resolution. And, um, but any any sort of access copy after there could be a much lower [01:05:00] resolution. Um, as long as it doesn't get in the way of listening to the recording. So the access copy would be used by, uh, what research is coming into your archive to and to. Or if you wanted to put things online, what about the idea of with digital files now that you can have multiple copies of the same files? So you 100 originals. Do you have any thoughts on, um, is that a good bad thing? [01:05:30] It's a good thing and that you can reach a wider, you know, distribution. But you want to know what you've got in terms of an archive, and you want to have that kind of version control. So you want to assign that particular file and not have a whole lot of them because you don't know if you if they are really exact copies, Um, and file integrity is important. So, um, I think it's best to [01:06:00] keep those separate so thinking of, say, like a smallish archive of a variety of things. So you've got kind of digital objects. You've got kind of photographs paper, I'm wondering, can we go through the list of different types of things that people collect and maybe see if there are any tips for storage and preserving those things? So things like, um, textiles again in your space? Um, usually you'll find, um, textiles [01:06:30] and three dimensional objects are quite large. Um, and they're all they have unusual shapes and not like paper that you can store typically flat. So I guess the key thing for its storage is that it has to have some sort of support. So textiles, but like paper, you don't want them folded where they get, um, crushed or creases. And you can do simple things like making little tissue rolls to keep them supported, and so that they don't form creases or, um, little sausages made [01:07:00] of calico and, um, Ron, um, and ideally, in a larger because the thing with textiles and 3D objects is that they can get crushed quite easily, so you'd want them in another box that can be carried around and so that they don't get crushed or other sort of injuries. Um, and you want to have also we talked about having a table to view things you'd want your table big enough. But you might also want other things with that, like cushions for large books, you might want cushions to support, [01:07:30] uh, large books. So when you're turning the pages of those books, you're not damaging the spine. You might also want that for some of your more fragile textiles. You might want small weights for holding down, uh, rolled objects or textiles or paper. Um, because they have a memory. They have a memory paper, has a memory, and it likes to If it's been rolled for a long time, it likes to stay rolled, um, and again having if you if people [01:08:00] are accessing it, Do you want for photographs to talked about clean hands, but also those policies about when people access materials. I would suggest that if you're the person who runs the archives, you retrieve the material for the people. For whoever is wanting to access it, you give a quick, um, talk about why you know we want you to use, um what? We want you to wash your hands or use, um, cotton gloves. We only want pencils used in here and other policy decisions about things. Like, Can you take a photograph? You know, with digital cameras and things people [01:08:30] say, Can we photograph it? You have to make a call on whether you allow that. Um, and you might make a decision that some things are too fragile to be viewed or only, um, accessed with you there the whole time, Those sorts of things. But I guess if you approach, um, the storage and handling you never want to. You never want to take off things off the shelf and be wrestling through them to find the stuff and then giving it to people. You want to take [01:09:00] the box, put it on a table, open the box, take it out of its bottle all on a table or on a surface because you know it's it's easy to drop things or if things are too heavy. You want more than one person, um, to be maybe moving the stuff with you and simple things about where you store things best to have your heaviest things, possibly on mid shelving and your lighter things on your top shelving. So those would be the kind of key things for an archive from from my point of view. [01:09:30] Um, just just thinking of emails. Um, because, um, email software, um, email programmes come and go. Mostly go. Um, it's best to save your emails away from the the software programme itself. So in a in some kind of open source, uh, format. Um, but the same principles of the the [01:10:00] physical items the C DS and the cassettes and records LP S, as as Vicky has described, um, when you're moving them from, make sure you're moving them from a stable area to a another clear area so that when you're taking them out of their covers, their supporters and just those things about removing a CD not using the, uh, not getting your fingers on the on the CD itself, But, um, from [01:10:30] the out touching everything on the outer edges. Um, just thinking about those CD uh, various CD shelving arrangements. Some of them may even require you to take your C DS out of boxes. That's not advisable. And even some of the slim line cases could just just be too flexible. And it's it's better to have something that where the, um the case itself isn't pressing down on the on the CD. [01:11:00] So you have to look at your storage in terms of that, um, make sure that they've got support. Yeah, when you're out in the community, do you find that people are knowledgeable about how quickly things degrade? I know that I was quite shocked. Well, I think a lot of people were quite shocked with things like C DS where originally when they came out, it was like, Oh, these are gonna be for a lifetime And then they're now only [01:11:30] five years of that in terms of life span, Do you Do you find that you have to kind of educate people in terms of the life span of particular objects within the collections? Well, just as we've had to educate ourselves because I think when we were transferring items in the analogue day, well, just when digital came in, it was, um, CD that you were transferring to That was going to be, you know, an archival medium. But, [01:12:00] um, or some people transferred some archives transferred to debt, but um, we've had to educate ourselves about that. And yes, Um, yes, that is what we have to do for and probably less. So people know anecdotally that they, um you know what happens to their papers and books. They leave a newspaper out, it turns yellow and the sun, so people know about that, and then it's just [01:12:30] developing an approach to caring for it. That's the key. And and again, most people know the the kind of they're in the ballpark of knowing how to look after things. People generally know that if they put things in a box that that will be better for it than directly under the bed. So it is about just developing an approach to having an overall plan. I think so often, um, conservatives. After we've given workshops, people are quite depressed. We're all doom and gloom. But in fact, [01:13:00] um, if they stop and think that they actually already know a lot of this stuff. So it's just channelling that energy into a methodical approach, I guess, to caring for their things. But it's interesting, because when you mentioned I don't store things in the basement on the roof or, um under the bed. I mean, I think probably most people would probably. That's where you store stuff and that's and it's space considerations. And I've got things stored in my wardrobe because, you [01:13:30] know, I don't want ugly archives boxes on display in my house, but, um, so there's those things, But once you become an archive, then you take on a responsibility in a in a different in a different way. So, um, and it's, um, not insurmountable, even though we might suggest otherwise in the way we're describing it. But, um, yeah, so and it's more I think it really is important to take those small steps. Otherwise, it is very often overwhelming. And you stop. [01:14:00] And that would be, um, said one of the things we haven't talked about is the actual access of material. So you're collecting this material? Um, do you have any tips for how people access it? You know, in terms of either restrictions or use, or how do you go about that? Um, I would suggest in terms of physical access, I would suggest that that's always done with the person who's the archivist or whoever, Um, that there's always [01:14:30] somebody there when the person accesses the collection. There's all sorts of other things, I guess, about how, what, how the material is going to be used if it's going to be used by researchers and those are whole other questions. Um uh, a curator or an archivist would be better to answer. But in terms of physical access, I would suggest that sort of almost, um, reference or close collection so that there's always somebody there when that person is using the material, not sitting right beside them. But but being there for the [01:15:00] security of the collection would be my, um, biggest thing of the conservator and and if you can, all of the sound recordings, Uh, if you could try and access the copy only to preserve the original and and I guess similarly, if you've got very fragile paper or you know, paper records, it might be better if you are able to provide a copy to that person and, [01:15:30] um, rather than the original, although then again, you might. That person might want to see the original for whatever reason, and that might provide more, um, information to them. So I guess thinking about the for us as conservatives. It's thinking about the object first when accessing it. Hm? Yes, that's right. Um, and I know that if you're creating a preservation copy a digital copy, then it's relatively easy to produce [01:16:00] an access copy from there. But if you think of preserving the, um, original, then you're getting the access for free. Well, you know what I mean. You you get the access. Rather, you know easily once you've invested the time and effort into creating that first copy. And then I guess there's all those other things about restricted restricted collections and gaining permissions before people can use certain parts of the collection. And again, that comes right back to the beginning about your policies and why [01:16:30] you exist and what your purpose is and what sort of objects and collection you have So before I guess researchers or people come to use your collection. You have already identified what the potential issues are and how you, as an archive, will deal with those. Yes, it can be difficult. I think if if you've got the the archives got the relationship with the donor directly. But if it's passed through several hands, then it's hard to know, [01:17:00] But I agree it's in the policy and you'll know for each item or collection if there were any particular restrictions placed while the person was alive or for various reasons, it's quite individual.

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AI Text:September 2023
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