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Paul Diamond - Creating Our Stories

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by pride in And funded through a generous grant from the Legacy Fund of the second Asia Pacific Outgames. [00:00:10] At the moment, I'm working as a curator at the temple library. And before that, I've worked as a bridge originally trained as an accountant, and was an investigative accountant involved in forensic fraud accounting, which was actually good training for what I've done later, because I then moved into journalism, and then through that moved into doing radio, radio work, which led me do longer form interviews. So I started working in oral history, [00:00:43] and an actual history and biography and writing. In terms of queer, queer projects, I've done some interviews for the Vietnam War Oral History Project, which I used to run for the ministry for cultural heritage, with a couple of Vietnam veterans, Who, who, who are gay. And that was one of the criteria for why I think we were King to include them in the collection and why I was asked to do the interviews, because I think by the time I did those interviews, I wasn't running the project, but I was I became one of the interviews. So both those interviews are a part of the tumble collection, deposited by the Ministry for cultural heritage. And they're both unrestricted, unrestricted interviews. [00:01:30] I did a paper for the stout center, stout Research Center, and Victoria University. That's a senior for the New Zealand studies. And that was to do with a thing called the green International, which was a [00:01:46] sort of an alleged grouping of homosexual people in the 40s and 50s. In New Zealand, and the allegation was that they controlled arts funding, I ain't got funding at the expense of people who weren't linked to this group. So green apparently came from Oscar Wilde and the green carnation that he wore and the International was modeled on linked to the idea of the Communist International. There is also a term called the Hammonton, which is sort of modified version of the comment in and that was used in America and and and other countries to do with the idea that a similar idea of the so they call it I think it later got called the gay mafia. So I did a paper about that for the man alone conference, which was last year. So that's 2010, held by the stout Center, a Victorian oven University. But the bigger piece of work that I've been involved with as a as a book project to do with a shooting that happened when the mayor of on the new Charles makki, or mechanic, spelt, MCI, M, IC k y, apparently pronounced makki, and may 1920s, short, Darcy, Walter Darcy Chris will, they've been blackmailing the media, because the media was sexual now that began, and about 2005, I think, when I was working at Radio in New Zealand, possibly earlier. And pre landline colleague mentioned the story, she'd come across it and Michael King's History of New Zealand, I'd come across it in a book by Peter wells, and Rick's program called this mates which was an anthology of guy writing, but he had a very good essay at the front, which actually had quite a bit of gay history in it. And Peter had talked about this story. And really, one of the things I've been looking at is the way the story has been [00:03:40] mentioned, it's sort of it's been suppressed, but it's sort of pops up and all sorts of other settings as well, I pro and I decided to try and do a radio program, which we got commissioned. But we didn't finish it, because we ran into some problems with you know, Who, who, who we talked to as part of the program, how we actually do it. And I actually left Radio New Zealand and did other things. But but then I've because I've been working as a historian. [00:04:07] My boss, who's the chief historian, at the time at the Ministry for cultural heritage, Roman Daily said to me, Well, why don't you just think about in your spare time pursuing this and seeing where it leads? And so I'm still thinking of doing a book about it. But it's got a number of sort of parts to the research. And it's it hasn't been completely clear what sort of book it is, but but the research has been quite interesting. And hopefully, there might be some things in there that might help for us. [00:04:36] You mentioned suppression, and I'm wondering, have you encountered a lot of having to deal with or finding hidden histories in terms of it said that the Charles McKee situation, [00:04:51] I mean, we are talking about [00:04:55] hadn't had histories, because but [00:04:58] the context changes was over time. And that's one of the things that you've got to be aware of. And I guess that's the thing that sort of the more you learn about history, the more more It teaches you but at a basic level. You know, [00:05:09] I'm part of what I'm trying to work out with this one and only story was that after the media shot, Dasey, Chris wall, at some stage after that, the peep someone in the town, chiseled sand, the name and the title of the mayor of the stone for the sergeant gallery, which he built now. And then that being got put back in the 1980s. [00:05:31] And then the archives, and the Montgomery District Council, there is a leader and MIMO from the the chief executive for the town Clark, now the chief executive of the council to the gallery director saying, Please, can this be put back and explaining you know that attitudes have changed, but there should be no publicity for us now, I was led to that, because the gallery director at that time, said to me, he remembered the being a ruthless, a pink triangle wreath was laid by the gay group, and we're going to be gay rights Action Group, I think it was called. But he wasn't exactly sure when and then that it was after that, that the name got put back on the roof. So Peru and I went to Illinois, we did some research, and we found this MIMO. But I decided I try and find the members of that guy group, which has been an interesting process. And, you know, one of the founders had moved to France, but was actually in the process of moving back to one night. And it's been surprisingly hard to pin down exactly when this thing happened. And, and people who were in the group, remember that there was media coverage, and there were, you know, there was even a radio interview and things but I can't pin it down. And a momentary, they have a really good card index of topics. And, and so it's often by person's name. So you know, when people die when people are married, a note of that, and the paper is put on cotton Dixon, I found it very helpful for searching. And it's got a bunch of topics, but there's nothing like this in it. And so, you know, I'm still trying to find if there was any media coverage among and we had two papers that probably was in the late 1970s. But the other day when I was among, you know, it really brought it home to me that, you know, it's just not not considered important, not considered seemly, okay to be a topic for research. And I just thought, it's so much harder when you're researching these sorts of things. Because if it was, you know, a school or a pack, or, you know, something that I'm not getting at the librarians, it's just the way, I guess I sort of am actually because it's, it's, I've got no other way of finding this than just trolling through the papers, because these ones haven't been digitized. And, and I've had to go out at once before, but I'm just gonna have a I will have another bear Shut up. But it does bring it home to how that's Yeah, it is harder, you're really sort of up against it with us for whatever reason it is it is hidden, but there are, there are ways around it. And it is becoming easier all the time, with digitization and other things that are going on with technology. [00:08:09] Can you take me step by step through what your research processes in terms of you know, how you find sources, what kind of sources you're looking for? How you start uncovering material? [00:08:20] Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at finding stuff, I'm not so good at it. [00:08:26] Not getting lost and organizing it. [00:08:30] So I think it is important, it's important to sort of have a research plan, I think, sometimes, what keeps your research on track as as your particular output, I think, at a basic level, if you don't have a things like word limits and deadlines, you're going to struggle. So those might come from this being something that you're doing for journalism, you might just be researching, because you want to write something for the paper or a documentary or something. Or you might be doing this as part of an academic thing. And that gives you a deadline, all you might be doing as part of a book. Now the problem I've strike is that I don't necessarily have a an agreement, I don't have an agreement with a publisher, and and other books I've done that's what's really kept me on track. Because sort of, you know, where's that manuscript, you know, we need this by the state, we need this many words. And that means you just cut your path to fit the time we've got this story, it's not completely clear to me what the story is, is about I mean, I've got a bit of sense of it now. And it is I have a feeling with this one, that it's, it's still emerging. And there have been some strange coincidences, which is perhaps another part of the research story in a way that just to be aware of unexpected coincidental things that can sometimes emerge as part of this, which is not something you can you can plan for. But at a basic level, what you're doing when you do this sort of thing as you, you probably, I think you start with what they call the secondary sources. So if you're interested in something like the story, you would want to start by looking at where is it referred to, and other books. So Peru had heard about it, and the Michael King History of New Zealand, there was also a reference in the Michael kings biography of Frank Sanderson. I'd seen it and the mates and lovers, best mates, sorry, introduction. So I think that's always wise to do, because what that can show is that someone's actually done it all, you know, there may actually be not any, you may decide at that point that actually, it's not really worth doing, spending your time taking it any further. Then once you've done that, then you can start to think about original research, which is really exciting, because that's where you're actually getting into what they call primary primary records. And so for this case, I think what Paul and I did, we went to one and only, and which seemed obvious, because the shooting, it happened on the night, and we looked at the Council archives, and we looked at the museum archives, and we, we sort of looked at people to talk to now, that's happened in 1920. At that stage, the mere does still have a daughter was alive. And she probably had two conversations with her and she was very unhappy about us working on this project. So that was a, that was a problem for us. Not just that we didn't have a I mean, that was really the only person we knew, who might have had first hand knowledge of the story, everyone else, it was all hearsay, they were quite a lot younger, they were removed from the story, they only knew what they'd read, or perhaps what they'd been told, or what someone to tell them, you know, sort of second third hand, but also just, you know, in terms of [00:11:42] ethical practice, was, I think we both [00:11:48] I think it was a factor in why we both delight and sort of, you know, push push through what we because a family members are unhappy about what you're doing, it makes you pause and think, think about what you're doing. There was a certain amount of material and among annoyed. But then we also looked in the archives. And fortunately, for us, one of these archives come to Wellington and and so we were able to find quite a lot of material and Wellington so for example, the trial file for the original shooting the so when Charles makki was charged for attempted murder that is in the archives and Wellington, that's not I don't think that I might know I had to we had to apply for permission for from the High Court among the night at that stage for that. And, and things about permissions, especially in archives are changing all the time to do with law changes and, and the status of records. So and things are software often have restrictions for certain periods of time. We found Charles Mackey's bankruptcy file, we found his divorce file because when he went to court, when he went to prison, his wife thought for divorce. And then by accident, really, we found this present file. And that was an interesting one, because we were just this is a strange thing that probably wouldn't ever happen again. But the person on the desk at archives recognize the name and said, Oh, I think [00:13:17] we've got this presence on a card indicates that we have a prison files. And sure enough, it was and so [00:13:26] I don't think all prison files were kicked butt. But for some cases, and I mean, this patch was quite a high profile case, involving a very high profile person, the mayor of a town that was kicked and so we had to apply for permission from the fact the Minister of corrections to look at that. And that was an amazing thing to find because they'd had a photo photos of the present photo and had a whole lot of seats of leaders and amazing resource. And not many people have actually found that. [00:13:55] And to this day, that is not actually on the database archives under his name, the way archives works is that not everything is described to that level. So we were still very lucky to actually come across that. [00:14:10] And then obviously, newspapers are quite important. So you know, finding what was what was recorded there. Those [00:14:19] that's really the hostess I think you go through as you sort of move from you the secondary sources, which has an end to the primary, what I've sort of as I've gone to this, one of the areas I've had to look at as more of the secondary stuff to get an understanding of the context around [00:14:36] the individual sort of story that I'm coming across. The other thing that I'd mentioned is some gene and I know Chris Cole, who is again, someone I I've consulted with someone, and one thing to do is to, you know, get in touch with people who are experts in this area, who are good at queer research, and also, you know, have credibility as queer scholars, or scholars of queer stuff. And Chris Burkle is one of those. Um, so I've talked a lot to him about it. And he's been really good at suggesting lines of inquiry, but he's also a genealogist and genealogists are really helpful, various research projects I've done, it's always worth talking to them and learning about how they go about researching, because genealogy is really about hunting down tracking individuals. [00:15:24] I think that can be the problem with it sometimes is that it's sometimes it's the individual not in a broader context, other than as a family tree. But it's quite good sometimes to just find an various families that you're researching the person who's doing the family tree, this one, I found people and all the families of people associated with it just about who've been doing family trees, and they actually still sending me stuff. That's fine. As you know, with Chris stuff, it's tricky. I mean, you've got to suss out with [00:15:57] what people say, to choose to, you know, this elements and the story some and I have struck out with people, I found [00:16:06] descendants of one of the siblings of Charles makki. And, you know, one was what we talked to me but wasn't very comfortable about this whole thing. And the other one was, was fine about talking about it. So you just have to treat carefully and respect people's wishes. And, you know, behave as if it was your family, really, and be. And I think as long as you're respectful and show people that you're taking it seriously, and being professional and ethical about it, then that's, you've probably got a pretty good chance. And the thing that's sort of in our favor, I suppose, is that this is getting progressively easier, [00:16:44] I guess. And then the further away, you move from something that might have been scandalous, and it's day, it's, it's easy, it gets easier to talk about it. Helen Sure. As a woman who was doing, who knew Darcy crystal, and really, really respected him as a writer, because he became a, he was a poet and a writer. She was doing a collection of his leaders. And she wrote to the people in Monet to out to the library, and she read to the council, and the town clerk wrote back to her and said, you know, because it's in her time, you see, she was doing this in the 60s. She didn't even know what date the shooting had happened. It's pre internet, it was a heck of a lot harder to just find things. I mean, and there was no, there was nothing like the dictionary, New Zealand biography, which actually, just to jump out and talk about that, that was quite an important thing was that the dictionary New Zealand biography had decided to include data, Chris will and Charles makki as biographical subjects now. So you can't underestimate the importance of projects like that. And again, it probably says something about our time that we, I think, certainly Charles make it was included because he was an important [00:17:59] I can contributed to the understanding of the history of sexuality and how things have changed for homosexual men over time. So William Broughton, was in the English. He's an English professor from messy was commissioned to do those two essays, he had done a thesis on [00:18:16] New Zealand writers that included Chris will, so he was pretty familiar with crystals with and I think it came across the story as part of their, but then he researched Charles Mickey's life. There are files on those biographies at the Ministry for cultural heritage, which they will let researchers consult. And again, that's really useful because they do a lot of genealogical search, archival research and fact checking. [00:18:41] So again, it can stop you having to go down the same road again. Because, you know, also, again, it's getting easier and easier to get things like birth certificates and stuff, but back then it was quite expensive. And so they've done all that, you know, they've got Charles makki actually died in Germany and they actually went to a lot of trouble and experience to find his death certificate, and m&e, which back then was quite difficult to give. So that's, that's worth knowing about. And that was, yeah, I mean, that's why the secondary source Chico's quite important. Because if you, you could sort of just hear often, you know, look at the newspapers or whatever, but to know, and it's actually been a big thing is it's like thinking, Well, what could I say actually about the story that's different to what will important see than that, that thing, and that see, that wouldn't have happened [00:19:29] in an earlier period. But anyway, Helen, Helen, sure. wanted to find out when this thing was in a sort of told who when it wasn't, you know, these people said, I can remember that from an old school child. But he stayed in that in this later in the late 60s, he said, since the later was an unsavory one. And since there are still members of Mr. Mackey's family living among the night, we suggest you either tone it down or leave it out altogether. So, you know, that sort of illustrates for me, but and even, I was curious to after the reaction we got from Charles Mickey's Daughter of you know, how we're going to go and how would people want to [00:20:03] feel about talking about this? [00:20:06] A couple of questions jumped out to me. And one of them is, when you are looking at secondary sources initially, how do you know, when things aren't the I mean, how do you know, is this something that's going off in your head saying, are This doesn't add up? Or what are the things for you? [00:20:26] Yeah, that's a, that is that is a hard thing. And I know, I can remember really early on one of the things I said to prove was that I didn't want to put a gay label on this man. You know, [00:20:39] I was really wary of I mean, this was a man who had been it was married, he had three, he had four children, but three were alive in three daughters. And he, you know, he wouldn't have necessarily even then I was sort of thinking, well, he wouldn't have necessarily identified as gay and I would sort of thought all Pepsi be, you know, as we would have now thought of as bisexual. Another part of the story is that in the court case, for the attempted murder, he pleaded guilty. And then when it came to sentencing to try and reduce the sentence, has lawyers produced evidence that he'd been treated for his homosexuality in 1914, so six years earlier, and there was a statement from a GP, and a specialist who was called a myth physician. And that's been one of the big lines of inquiry is to try and work out what would the treatment have been and you know, what even wasn't made a physician. And the really where I've come to now, all these years later, is that actually, the homosexuality is the point of the whole story, because [00:21:45] and papers past is a great resource for researchers. And it's a database of newspapers put up by the National Library. Now, it's not all New Zealand newspapers, but it's a good selection of them, and at some text searchable, so when you put them homosexuals, that the only articles you find before the one and only story of 1920, our stories to do with Oscar Wilde, that which was in the 1890s. And another case to do with a scandal in the German causes army called the alien, Berg, Ireland, booga fear, and it was sort of 1986 1907. [00:22:19] Now, when you start to look at the scholarship around those, those two things were regarded as labeling of beans. And when the concept of the homosexual arrived in Germany in person, and that's when I suddenly thought, maybe this is our labeling event. Because chris chris Burke, who alerted me to early on very early on, he said to me, that's a really early use of that word. He said, it wasn't really used commonly in New Zealand until the 20s, late 20s. And so 1920, you've got this word used. And because it was used by Charles Mackey, through his lawyers, and his doctors, I've realized that I've sort of come all the way around thinking actually, the homosexual angle and this is the point. And that's why, you know, the way I'm thinking about it now, as you know, New Zealand's first homosexual and quote, Max. [00:23:09] Just remind me what your question was about the there was something else, [00:23:13] when you're looking at secondary sources? Are you What do you need to be aware of what was [00:23:17] missing? [00:23:20] That is a really good question. Because I mean, [00:23:23] I think I don't know whether the medical history stuff is a good example. I mean, that I think I've worked out what the treatment was, I think it was to do with hypnotism. But it's taken quite a circuitous route to find that [00:23:36] because I'm sort of, I can, I just can research endlessly. You know, I, you know, [00:23:42] I've read Memoirs of the German ambassador's wife, even before Charles Mackey was in Berlin, you know, just to get a bit of a feel for he sometimes we get what's what's actually relevant. [00:23:55] You just need to be, I think you need to look at the sources. You know, [00:24:00] always look at when they were done, I mean, then so it can be really valuable to look at secondary stuff from the time so I tracked down a talk that the head of the present service gave, actually, at the time, Charles Mackey was in prison. And because this man, Matthews pops up all the time, and Charles Mackey's file. And so I don't know how I must have been trying to find stuff about the New Zealand prison system. And there was this big talk that this guy had given, and it got published. And it's really helpful. And it's got photos and things. [00:24:36] There was a few talking about quiz stuff. [00:24:40] Like there was an inquiry into mental defectors and sexual perverts and the 1920s. And that's been looked at quite closely for what it says about eugenics and, and things but homosexuals GOT GOT lumped in. [00:24:59] And monks and that group, and that grouping, and what, what I've realized is that the prison system was categorized was based on a system of categorizing offenders. [00:25:11] And [00:25:13] homosexual, mean, and homosexual covered a broader range of things than what we think it does now. So again, this is where the research, [00:25:25] it sort of changes the way you see things, but it is important to start to look at that, that research, because what I've realized is that I mean, things like child sex offenders, Peter s, and things were all grouped as regarded as homosexuals. And, and even, you know, when people talk about homosexuality being illegal, it wasn't just sodomy, or beggary that was grouped under there. Apparently, you know, other other things like mutual masturbation stuff would be, could be sort of grouped under that. So you have to be very careful when you're interpreting sources. But there was this inquiry, and what made me realize is that one of the presence that Charles makki got seemed to, he was transferred to five presence, he was transferred seven times, which is pretty amazing in itself, for [00:26:21] the new millennium present for six years. But of course, the thing to be careful about is that I've only ever looked at to present files, but I really only looked at one present file. So I think it's proven I had no idea when we looked at this, how unusual was this? I think it probably was quite an unusual file. But But you've got, you've got to remember that you know that you so you always trying to establish the context. Anyway, one of the Presidents that he was in was the plumber. Now, at that time, New Plymouth was set aside for six homosexuals, sex offenders. And I, and then it's also at that time, that the inquiry into mental defectors and sex offenders as actually had some meetings at UConn with President when he was there. And Charles Matthews, the head of the presence was very involved in this inquiry. So [00:27:10] I [00:27:10] guess I'm saying this to sort of there was, you know, I now think that context is incredibly important and and makki. didn't want to be in this present. a newcomer has family actually live very, he had a sister, two sisters who lived in New Plymouth. So, and one of them just loves down the road from where they lived down the road from the prison is still but on the file, there's a there's requests, you know, please can I be transferred. And also, that's the first time and the whole period is and presently he's having to do hard labor, he was sentenced to hard labor, but he hadn't had to do it until then. And there are discipline reports in this file, but there's nothing to suggest that he'd fallen out of favor, but I can't help thinking that it's something to do with with you know, he was in prison for attempted murder, but I think he was being regarded. Well, there are references to him being sexual pervert. So that was obviously how he was seen. So just this isn't really answering your question. But you, you just have to be very vigilant really. And just and and, and this means you've got to sort of keep track of things. But it's really only after this many years down the track that I've sort of realized that I think there might be more to him being a new president than it originally thought. [00:28:19] Do you have any tips for I mean, I can see that context is incredibly important. But there must be a point where you come to where you actually try and work out what is the relevant information? How do you how do you distill down into what is relevant for your [00:28:36] research, you need to you need to research smart, I mean, and and, and really, the best thing is to be using your time for the most important stuff. You know, and I mean, from working at ready New Zealand and the really skilled reference librarians that are here and and other libraries I've worked with, I've seen how, you know, there is a way of researching targeted research so that you spend the time and the faces that are worth spending time and, and that's why it's better to think that way rather than and try and be a more targeted researcher than just blind googling, because a lot of the things that are available online and not publicly available. So for example, there's a thing called the Oxford Dictionary of national biography, which is England's biography. And unlike ours, it's not publicly available. So you either have to find a place that has a subscription to that or you know, you can pay for access to it. Now that's got a biography of a guy called hick who, who [00:29:40] was a guy in New Zealand expat writer who hasn't been well, isn't really well known here. Because he really Lyft New Zealand became a very famous world biographer, but that's got a really important partner, but he apparently Lyft New Zealand because of the shooting among the night. Now, I would have never you have a non about that if I hadn't. So you've got a Yeah. And I mean, how do you it's by having a bit of a plan having? I think, trying to, it's, these are the skills that historians have got, I mean, like, and it's not just doing the research, it's actually what you do with it. But I suppose if you've got the clear sense, I mean, what they're trying to do is, you know, to have very clear research questions, so that sort of guides you to keeping you on track as well. That's why I'm saying I'm not such a good dumb. I maybe I'm not as focused as as, as I could be. But there but I guess, you know, it's it's the sometimes the sometimes we're talking about research for its own sake, but often there is a in product of mind, even if it's just an interview or something. But they can kind of guide you, but probably, you know, what, what is it that you're actually trying to work out here? That sort of guides you because then you can actually look at the secondary sources, and we can all that's relevant, that's not relevant. But But be aware that increasingly, you know that, well, just as you know, you might have to enter in a book or buy a book, I mean, stuff on don't just assume that everything you're going to want to find on the web, you will be easily available if you don't have access to these stuff that's behind pay subscriptions and things. [00:31:17] I guess, also with the web is that if it doesn't come up on the Google search, doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it might not be on Google, but it might be out there somewhere. [00:31:29] Yeah, and I mean, if you're part of a university, you know, universities are about the last place in New Zealand, well, maybe there are some commercial places, but University subscribe to a lot of databases that can for students are very lucky. So if you've got a way of accessing their, or else, your local library, [00:31:50] libraries have all got school train sort of research librarians, and they have a certain number of databases that are available. They're amazing things available. Now, there are historical newspaper databases now. So you can. So Charles Mackey was killed in Berlin and 1929. So I was able to find, you know, the New York Times articles, articles, and Canada and articles, as well as articles in England and other countries. So this stuff, yeah, I wouldn't, [00:32:22] I wouldn't really, I wouldn't really, Google is just, you could just waste a lot of time, you have to actually do more sort of targeted. And something I've learned to do to is to take notice of people's references. So you know, when I was wanting to research in Germany, because when Charles makki was killed in Berlin, there was quite a controversy about it. And there's quite a lot, I'd suspect that there would be a bed in the archives. And there's, there's a huge amount of the archives. But But I don't speak German, but I had German speaking friends helping me. But what I did was I, I found books about the riots that he was killed in, and I looked at the references. And like I looked at the history of the German, he was killed by German placements, I found the history of the German place, which has got references in it too. Because you know, these sort of books will be based on original research. And so if they've done done properly, they'll have their references in there. And so I was able to use these references, and then take those to the archives in Germany. And that leads me to the files on Charles makki. So that was really, really lucky. And in some of the archives, you could just work, but you can hear, you know, give them names, and, and I'll find what they can, but it was a great thing to be able to. And that's another reason why secondary sources can be quite helpful. [00:33:34] Is it really important, like right at the get go? To actually define what your research and why you're researching it? Do you? Do you think that actually, it's really important to have that clear in your mind at the start? Or is it something that just kind of evolves over time? [00:33:51] No, no, you should have a clear, I think the trouble with me is that it's been an evolving thing. And that's probably not such a good thing. Don't do this. [00:34:02] Yeah, I think it does depend on on the purpose for the research, actually. But yeah, ideally, and even if it's just a couple of research questions, and it also makes you look a bit more professional, if you're going to talk to people, because there's a clear sort of sense. I mean, usually there is a sort of a, [00:34:21] that you can sort of distill it down into a research question, or two, or whatever, what, why you're looking at this, and yeah, it will change over time. And that's the beauty of doing that. That's why you're doing this, it's because you are trying to find you're trying to, I think of this is trying to move the move our understanding of something forward. And, and, and I'm always in, you know, you're acknowledging the work of people, you're building on the work of people who came before you. And you might be the last, I won't be the last to be looking at Charles makki. But you're part of that sort of continuum. But that means you got to be clear about what you're doing at that time. And so you just make sense to be clear about what's been done before and also about being your practices as you go forward. You know, documenting your references, and that sort of thing. those sort of things are really, really important. [00:35:10] How much weight would you put on kind of understanding yourself as a researcher, you know, knowing why you're doing what you're doing, knowing your own kind of prejudices? And where you come from? How important is that for you? [00:35:24] Yeah, I think it's really important. I mean, I think there was a view, I think historians might have some historians might have argued that, you know, you're, you you're just being objective, and you're not really there. But I think, [00:35:40] I think, [00:35:41] as in journalism, I think [00:35:44] there's this other idea that, that you can't help but be influenced by your background and what you bring to it. And I would have loved to have had to talk to Michael King about the way he [00:35:56] handled great sadness and sexuality in his book. And again, it's a question consequence of that that was written in the 80s. I think, was it I mean, you know, things of things have changed. Since then, it would, you know, he sort of said that a biographers Judy's to go as far as the bedroom door, but not beyond, which some people might might take issue with. But [00:36:18] I mean, people have said to me, you know, why are you interested in this? Look, look inside yourself and, and ask yourself, why? Why has the story about Charles making things got you interested in, I think it's to do with being gay. [00:36:34] I haven't quite quite figured it out. And you see, her being gay made me sort of hyper conscious of not wanting to label him as gay. But I've sort of realized years later that actually, I think it's the point of the whole story. But that's not, that's not a bad process to have gone through. [00:36:54] And like, I guess, what you're trying to do is you're always trying to imagine yourself into another time, and then that's the skill of historians is that they can, they can do that, you know, quote, The Roman daily, put me on to, from a talk that Greg Denning, historian that she always talked about an Australian historian, he said something like, you know, the worst thing that we can do, as to imagine that our answer the race, what can we can do, and we're thinking about our ancestors as to as to imagine it's just us and funny clouds. And I've really liked that idea that you've just got to allow people, you've got to see people in their own context. So part of that is acknowledging you and we use it, and that you're, you know, a person who's come from a particular generation, and and [00:37:43] these people you're looking at, and also all the people, you know, the people in between are in different time contexts. I suppose that's why I like talking to Chris Brickell, because he's a sociologist, and that's a, that's a, he's a, he's a sociologist who writes good history, but he comes at it from a sociological perspective, which is very much about looking at people in their environment. You're thinking of you and as part of that, you know, your discipline, and we you, [00:38:09] skills you're bringing to it, as well [00:38:13] as, as a researcher, I think, probably to be aware of as well. And there might be things that, you know, you're not so good as we that's where you might get help from people. And that can help keep you on track as well. [00:38:24] Is there a difference? Do you think between being an independent researcher or having the backing of an institution or having a publisher for for a book, do you find that people treat you differently? [00:38:39] Yeah, there are swings and roundabouts. I mean, probably, if you're not on an institution, you've got a freedom that you don't have if you're an institution, an institution, but on the other hand, you know, it's hard for independence. [00:38:51] The freelancers because they don't have the the resources, the institutional backing. But I don't think I'm I don't think it's necessarily a bad I think, I think it's good to publish some stuff. I think that's probably what's helped me as the that have done a couple of books, and in particular, a biography. That, [00:39:11] that was published by a really [00:39:15] well known New Zealand publisher. I think it's really helped me, I think, I wouldn't have felt as confident. Yeah. And it's been, it's certainly as hard not having a [00:39:26] not having a publisher for what you're working on. [00:39:30] And that's my thinking at the moment is that I really need to just pull some of these ideas together and do our outline and proposal non stop a bit more actively taking it around some of the publishers because I just, I think I'm just that's just the sort of person I am I just need that structure [00:39:46] of deadlines and word limits, but no, I mean, both of them would, would would have swings and roundabouts, but it's not necessarily a variant. People don't necessarily treat you [00:39:57] any differently, or worse, or whatever, a few a few aren't from from an institution. [00:40:01] So you would have been able to access things like the prison records, if you hadn't been working at Radio Museum, as if you just got on the advice often sit on interested in this? [00:40:13] Well, I don't know. Although, I mean, I'm, I've I've had to reapply for access to that file. And when I initially got the access, I had to apply to the Ministry of corrections. And we did that from here, through through ready in New Zealand, I've had to sense to it directly to corrections and just as an individual, but you know, I've written letters, emphasizing that, you know, I'm a, bonafide a researcher, and I'm in I'm doing this for a biography. And so and so you see both both, both ways. It's sort of weird, and I've had a good, good relationship with them corrections actually over getting access to stuff. That's a nine, there's 100 year old for president files, I think blink them with a clean slate legislation. So for something that happened in 1920, well, 20th 2016, [00:41:03] see, I'm still well with inside the hundred year, even though part of it when I wrote a living was to say, you know, this man's not alive. And actually Now none of his children are alive either. So yeah, it's, I like to think it's more about having your arguments and your credentials, kind of the rather than who I was or whether I was in an institution or [00:41:26] have you come across any time when the your research has been stymied, because it's, it's queer related. [00:41:38] It's funny, I, you might not even necessarily know that. What I have run into is that I think genealogists You know, I'm saying genealogists are great to work with, but what I got a fright. And this one was realizing that there is a genealogical convention that you don't provide information relating to living subject, loving people. So [00:42:00] sort of wondered why I was being given information to a certain point, because what I was trying to do was to get to the gift fair enough down so that I could basically hit the phone book, or the electoral rolls. [00:42:14] Because I wanted to find people who were alive and see whether they had any memories or any information about this. So sometimes that's, that's not exactly what you're talking about. But no, not not directly for being sort of queer research. As I say, I mean, [00:42:31] I gave a talk about this, as part of I'm going to be some heritage weekend, like, in 2011. And one of the reasons I was pleased to do that was to see whether a momentary it was any sense of it being a thing that wasn't okay to talk about, and there was no sense of it. I mean, it might have been that those people didn't come to the talk. But people they were very interested. So I think, you know, maybe the death of the final daughters had something to do with that. [00:43:01] People had suggested that, that when she was alive, there was a sort of a difference that people didn't didn't talk about it out of respect to her. Pr, and I sort of observed that seemed to be a bit of a difference. And, and the attitudes of people who were from on me and people who sort of had moved along the way that people have moved on, and I were very keen to talk about it are the ones who are familiar with the schemes talk about it. And we wondered whether that was to do with a suspicion that we were going to do something that made the town look bad or something, but certainly I maybe have been working on this for so long, things have changed, you know, there was no sense of it being a thing that was not all right to talk about when we did the period of tweaking, which is good. [00:43:42] So in trying to communicate with the Charles Nikki's daughter, how did you go about that? What What was the kind of how did you approach it? [00:43:53] Well, I regret that I am, both times I chickened out and got booted out, because [00:44:00] pretty nice children's programs, and she's lovely, and no one can be nasty to but so prune knew that this might be the only chance we ever got to talk to her. So pro took some quite good notes, which was really good. So [00:44:13] I think we've we've talked it through, she knew to be very careful about documenting. Because this model, you know, as it was, we had one more chance because I think we rang her again, after we found the present file. Because I think we were thinking, you know, we got quite a shock to see the photos, the present photo and the leases and things and especially when we read that the leaders that said, you know, do you have any news about my children? I mean, it was very personal stuff. And so we thought we'd alluded to that, but [00:44:41] she wasn't really that keen on that. [00:44:45] No, it was just cold calling. But I know the second time I remember her saying to me, you know, she said, Well, you might be more used to this being a journalist, but I'm not. And she found it very hard. And, and like I said, I think it kind of was the thing that made us probably the reason why we didn't really pursue it. Because it was such a hostile resistance, such a resistant reaction to being contacted. And that's that's fear, that was who called [00:45:15] Do you have any tips coming from your kind of journalistic background on terms of trying to get on side with people that you're cold call, [00:45:24] you have to? [00:45:28] Well, we see different approaches can work for different people, you might want to, it might be better to write, you know, some people might respond better today that might give them a and I have done that too. I've written [00:45:43] I know Charles making his father's great fathers granddaughter, a great granddaughter, as a judge in San Francisco. And because Charles may had a daughter who went to America, and died in the 20s, but she married a man who became the head of the Harvard Medical School. It's one of his dissenters as a judge in San Francisco, and I tried hard to meet with him and I was wasn't San Francisco, and she threw an assist through the communications person for the San Francisco court said she didn't want to meet with me, but [00:46:15] I didn't think she really knew anything about the story. But you know, wish me well in the book, but [00:46:22] because judges, like here are very hard people to reach probably even harder in America. [00:46:32] I think you have to, you know, sometimes some, sometimes finding someone who knows someone can be [00:46:40] it is this is tricky sort of stuff. To to, because you don't quite know how people's attitudes are going to what they'll be like, sometimes writing can be good, I think being being very upfront [00:46:54] is a good thing. You know, and again, just just thinking about what I be comfortable answering these sorts of questions, you know, or with my, someone was contacting our family about these sort of things. I mean, if you just make it basic, like there, and, and behave, respect of it, I mean, being, I sometimes find that, you know, being on tour and knowing what you're doing as a really good thing, you know, being professional and, and I think that impresses people, if you're taking it seriously. And not just um, you know, doing is a brilliant [00:47:28] exercise, perhaps that sort of thing. But just, you know, just those basic sort of things, you know, being it's, it's different. It's, that's a bit different to journalism, because journalism's usually sort of thinking about a radio story or a newspaper story or something, you know. [00:47:45] I mean, [00:47:47] you might have different options, I suppose for, for the sort of research, you know, you might be able to well, even in journalism, you can do that, too, you can sort of, you know, not necessarily attribute things to people. There's various, the first thing you've got to get over is getting people to talk to you. Yeah, so, you know, I mean, I've emailed I've emailed like academics overseas, I've, I've written to people in New Zealand, I've, [00:48:14] sometimes it's good to do that. And then you can follow that up with a phone call, so that they kind of know a bit about what you're talking about. I mean, just opinions, you just have to, or sometimes I've tried to find people who knew someone I was trying to contact and gone gone through them, [00:48:29] to the daughter ever say why she wasn't interested in talking to you guys [00:48:34] know about but what we got? What surprised us is that she didn't seem to be that fussed about the homosexuality. You know, it was more just generally him being made to look bad, you know? And I remember Bruce it to Who do you think he was set up? And that's because that's one of the aspects of the story that as a strong part of the story, but it's not very easy. It's not documented at all. They know who, how did Darcy crystal come to be blackmailing the new and improved? Who do you think it was set up? And she said, Of course he was. [00:49:07] Which sort of surprised us, we we sort of sense that she wasn't so embarrassed about [00:49:13] the homosexual angle or anything, it's just that, you know, [00:49:16] her, her grandfather's reputation. she'd done an art history [00:49:22] for suffrage. [00:49:25] The anniversary in 1993, which is at the temple, and the woman who did that told us about it. And she said, Oh, you know, imagine talking for five years and not mentioning your father, once. It's not quite right that there are a couple of couple of references to him. In the [00:49:45] end, it was useful to because it confirmed the pronunciation because she does say his name on the type probe. And I went and had listened to that interview. And we only listened to the bits that we thought were interesting. I've since gone back and had to listen to it, because it is actually really interesting. Just to get it, I've realized that the, you know, the family context, this family that the married into one of the top wealthy, respected families. And [00:50:12] I think that's a whole part of the story of how the story why people didn't talk about it was because it was that one of those sort of families, and it's sort of about the way that one of these changed. I mean, it might be to do with a way of approach the story. I mean, problem and daily talks about a thing called micro histories, we're a small story can tell you a bigger story. But check Perkins from ready New Zealand came along to the talk I was giving. And he'd said to me, he thought maybe the story could work and similar approach the way he he told a story for a labor day program, about the man who was hanged in America, because he was a communist, and a New Zealand guy was trying to find the ashes because the ashes have been seen all around the world. And, you know, [00:50:59] this sort of little story with it actually tells a bigger story. But when jack came to the talk, I said, Well, what do you think? Do you think it'll work? And he says, Oh, no, really, that's the story of New Zealand, because it's a story about, you know, the decline, the rise and fall of long and it's, [00:51:14] it's about homosexuality, it's about you. And it's even got international angles and with them, you know, Charles makki, being cold in a riot and Germany and the and the sort of rise to power of the Nazi Party. So yeah, that's, that's why it's become a bit amorphous and hard to hard to pin down because it does have all these sort of elements to [00:51:37] have, they'd be been elements in your research, where, you know, you found out information, and then somebody says, you cannot use that information. [00:51:46] Well, I remember else, Ellis Damaris, and telling me when, as a journalist that, you know, when someone tells you something off the record, one of the things you can do as a journalist, as find that information from somewhere else, because then it's quite an important thing to know what I mean, and, you know, assuming that information is true, that's correct. You know, that's an option, you've got us that you can then think, well, who else can tell me that? And you see this, things like that you can do with first I mean, you might be able to think Well, is there anyone else? Who could tell me that? Or you could look at ways of including that without revealing who told it to I suppose, I mean, [00:52:30] I guess what you have to do in that situation is [00:52:34] you have to be very, yeah, that's territory, we will be really careful that that's, you know, trying this is where verification is quite important. But I think you perhaps want to try and [00:52:44] ask around that a bit more, and work out why. And, you know, would there be any circumstances that would be okay to do and they might hold someone's you don't use my name, or? [00:52:56] Yeah, I mean, and, you know, the more you find that about it, like the context of that information that might give you ideas, I, just because someone says that, I don't think necessarily means that you don't have any options, I guess, [00:53:09] going on from that as not only blocks, but actually getting permissions to use material. So like, for instance, some photographs and, and writing this. I mean, I know that there have been a number of examples in New Zealand about some writers that have been admitted from publication, because they were states don't want them in publication. Do you have any examples that you could, you could share that, that you're not things [00:53:36] I'm aware of? You know, I know when Peter wells and and MC spoken to the book. It was there were various writers whose literary estates wouldn't. The writings were under the control of the literary executives. And so [00:53:53] at that stage, the exhibitors wouldn't give them permission to be appearing in a thing like that. And so literary literary executives are in a tricky, people's executives are in a tricky position. [00:54:09] And I think you find, as I keep saying things, things change over time. I mean, since that book came out, all of those papers have become unrestricted and available. You know, [00:54:20] these people [00:54:22] often knew the person who gave them the right to be their executor. And they're having to sort of interpret that person's wishes. And that's it has to do with the [00:54:32] just the way that the context, the context does change, think about these things, as you know, to be aware of them, and really understand what they mean. [00:54:41] So do you notice this mean, you can quote from I don't know, PowerPoint, data show a presentation? Does this mean you can you know, what does it mean? Can doesn't mean you can't publish it to, you know, really, you've really got to understand what those restrictions mean. And you've got to not leave it to the last minute to [00:54:58] make sure you get those approvals if you need, because it could seriously undermine your project. But at the same time, I think this might be becoming less of an issue. I mean, there are there are just general things that you've got to be careful about, like things in copyright, and stuff, that that [00:55:15] that's really, really significant. And that doesn't change, whereas I think things about gay [00:55:22] queer stuff. [00:55:24] Must be I'm sure there are still problem, problematic areas. But I think my sense is that it is getting a bit easier. But at least less likely that that things, just generally, I think things the further away, I think you're just going to have a harder time of that the closer you are, you know, if there are still living descendants, that sort of thing. Although I was at a talk recently with someone I was listening to Selena Hastings talking about his Somerset mom biography and she, it was very clear that that the the duty of biography is to grandchild is quite different to the GDPR to our child, which is due to different the juicy writer, partner spouse, which I thought was an interesting way of looking at it as well, that there are degrees of closeness in terms of the way the biographer history should be, should be working. But the main thing about those restrictions is to be aware of them and really understand them, you know, so ask the librarians of the curators what that means, so that you don't trap yourself on it. Because if you do [00:56:30] reach those, then you might, you know, I always worry about having a hard time when I go back to that library. Oh, yeah, and the text is collections again, or the next researcher after you, you know, [00:56:45] I could cause problems for everyone else, I could make that collection become less accessible. You know, and, [00:56:52] and that's why it archives things sort of keep changing, because there was a controversy about [00:56:59] a box of David Lynch, these papers being released, and, you know, had Turing's by his daughter, but it also had stuff that was to do with New Zealand's foreign relations with America, I think, an anti nuclear stuff, and it was still sensitive. But that caused, I think, that caused a huge ramifications for access to material for everyone else. And that was probably more than on the archive site, actually, that one, but ya know, with those restrictions, you just need to really understand them and be aware of them. [00:57:30] I'm wondering if you have any ideas about how to protect queer history, and how to protect histories that are being made now, so they don't get lost? Are there things that you can think of that we can do? [00:57:47] Having Charles making in the dictionary of biography and see Chris one and having the, the sexuality there as a, as a topic? Kind of? You gave it a sort of a credibility, and it also mean that it was easy to find, you know, Helen shore was trying to do who work in the 60s, you know, it was way harder, you know, [00:58:09] maybe, you know, 20 more than 20 years before decriminalisation? You know, [00:58:17] it's just important that it be there is some subject headings and a catalog, like I said, in the CAD files and want to know, you know, that I just can't find anything about pride day. But But again, I've [00:58:33] Phil Parkinson mentioned to me that that leggings has the one and only gay group news decided, ever I've managed to find it there either. But that was great to have that sort of resource. So you know, [00:58:46] it's, I think he needs stuff. And both, you need to think about it in two ways you need, you know, you need the light. General libraries, the general cataloging systems need to sort of recognize this, but also you need your specialist repositories and catalogs and things as well, you know, so I've had a bit of a talk to the Lisbon and archives in Melbourne. [00:59:10] Because I've got this, I've been wondering how the story was covered in Australia. And I think, you know, whether it's Australia's first homosexual reference as well, based on what's in Trove, which is their equivalent to papers past, but as the one of the curators for that archive said to me, we see what you know, truth is not online. But they've done an index of truth, which they've said, they'll give me an index to truth. But I see New Zealand truth is online, and papers past, and that makes a huge difference, because that would cover things to do with sex and crime that other papers wouldn't. And that's been quite useful, actually, for this, they know, because they recovered the story in a completely different way to run else. And it's also been good for getting a Yeah, for that context. I think other gay historians find truth quite helpful. Because it it would go where other places wouldn't other papers wouldn't. [01:00:10] So do you think in the past, the reason why things weren't keyword, was that a some kind of censorship? Or was it just because it just wasn't done? Or what why do you think, [01:00:21] I'm not sure here? I wonder. [01:00:25] I mean, the names, you know, even the terminology changes doesn't matter. You know, even queer. You know, [01:00:33] I've interviewed [01:00:36] when I've interviewed older gay people, you know, [01:00:40] I've used the word gay, and they say, Oh, you know, that didn't, that doesn't mean anything, you know, we didn't use that word. They say, you know, so it's always [01:00:49] the terminology is a slippery thing as well, it's not necessarily clear when you when you should use that, you know, whatever particular terms. [01:01:01] So I'm not sure I'm really not sure. I mean, it's probably a combination of [01:01:07] public attitudes. [01:01:11] Well, pre 1987, that would have been because it was illegal. And then at the end, then it might be sort of a, [01:01:19] through sort of, because I think it's different now. I think, I think you, you will find stuff under gay and lesbian and bisexual, transgender and homosexual. I mean, lately, what I've been looking at is some stuff to do with history of homosexuality, which is really interesting. But [01:01:42] and I mean, it may be completely irrelevant to what I'm doing. But But you know, but it's, it's just interesting, the debates that are going on in the history world about whether homosexuality is seen as something that's sort of a night or whether it was something that was created by the medical and legal climate, which is really interesting argument. And there's been some [01:02:04] critique, as a guy called a few weeks, he's done some really amazing, amazing history. And I think he comes from a sort of a sociological perspective, I think they call him that social constructive, and this constructivist approach that's been critiqued by later people who sort of challenged that so [01:02:24] because if I'm trying to find out, you know, as, as the first time sexual and New Zealand, it's quite good to know, to be aware of those debates. So that's why I've sort of, you know, come back around, and I'm now looking at a bit more secondary stuff. And again, sort of looking at, you know, the references for the because I think, [01:02:41] given that, that's the sort of [01:02:44] angle I'm looking at. Now, with this project, I found I need to have a bit of a feel for those sort of debates. [01:02:50] And the word homosexual that was actually used by Charles makki stuffings, [01:02:54] homosexual monomania was the way they talked about up. Yeah. So that that was what he'd been treated for. 1914. I mean, I don't know if that's how they would have, because that's six years earlier. And, you know, the timing is quite significant. If you think of the things like Freud's work, and the whole idea of homosexuality is a mental illness and sort of pathologist, I think it was thought of as a bit different. And 1920, and even earlier in 1914. And at the moment, what I think it was, was to do with hypnosis, and auto suggestion, which was sort of grouped together as this thing called, suggested therapeutics. But you see, you then realize you've got to understand how was the medical profession structured in and actually, through some other work at the Ministry for cultural heritage, I interviewed someone whose father was the first medical specialist and McCargo and 19 and the 1920s. And he was an ophthalmologist. And he would there was a lot of resistance from doctors who were like, used to doing everything, and suddenly there were these specialists and it makes you realize that it's so different to how does now when we're used to having medical specialists, and it's also a period when people who weren't qualified doctors head Well, in the case of long ago, he had quite a significant role. Now the man who treated Charles Mickey for us homosexuality was [01:04:20] also called I Albert Godfrey, makki or MCI. So same name, not as far as I can tell, related, but he was not a doctor, but he trying to he wanted to be a doctor but couldn't afford to train as a doctor. So he he seemed to occupy this very strange space that you know, doesn't I suppose you might call it like what we've now call homeopathy or something but he when there was a flu epidemic among and he he was in charge of one of the areas for the medical [01:04:52] treatment you know, looking after people and mono say any has descendants have said to me and all the doctors were his friends and he had rooms what state straight which is the highest rate of on the night. So you see, that's so different to how things would be now and so when you say all Charles make it was treated, for some sick show, people look at your own sort of think you're going to say it's like, Ellen cheering or electric shock therapy or hormone therapy is it's really nothing like that. And it's some, and it's an A 1914. We know that this other guy, Albert Godfrey makki, was [01:05:30] running public hypnosis shows, like Andrew Newton and putting people under and making them do funny things. And he was a ventriloquist, as well. But he was also at the same time had a little practice treating people for nervous disorders. And I think homosexuality was seen as a nervous disorder, I think lots of things were put down to your news. Because on the court case, in 1920, the specialist said, relapses of homosexuality are generally caused by alcoholism, and near senior, the nearest thing, it was nervous exhaustion, and a lot of illnesses were put down to you to news. And so when we talk about people having a nervous breakdown, we're really that's the last remnant of that sort of language me as possibly a little bit like that. But now, the things that they thought were to do with news, we classify differently, like homosexuality, which we don't even really see as a disorder anymore. But at that, at that stage, that was sort of how they saw it. So things like, you know, stuttering, and some near impotence, all sorts of things were put down to nervous nervous exhaustion. So yeah, that's been interesting trying to figure that out. But you see how it opens up more questions, you think, oh, Crikey, how did GPS work and with other specialists at that stage, and all these other questions, so can go for you. [01:06:50] One thing that jumps out to me is that you've got so many strains in your head, how do you? How do you know, take your research? How do you? Do you have any tips for it? [01:06:59] Well, one of the things I sort of do whenever I talk to historians is, you know, ask them how they organize stuff. And traditionally, one of the ways they organize it is by source, because often, that's how you're having to, quote if you're going to have to give your references. So I talked to one historian and she said, Well, you know, there's my box from the Hakan. And there's my box from Tubal, you know, when I'm working on a particular project. And I've sort of, sort of tried to [01:07:28] follow that as well. But and then I've group things by chronologies are helpful sometimes, you know, just thinking on what part of the, of the skies life does it relate to? I mean, I know historians who do things by chapter. So [01:07:45] sometimes they have a very detailed plan of the book they're going to do, and they just have a, you know, they've got a chapter breakdown. And so when they go off to the tumble, or the Hakan, or whatever, they everything slots into that relevant chapter. I haven't found that so easy. I've tried doing things like you know, grouping it by things that relate specifically to Charles McKee, I've sort of put in date order. I mean, I've run into problems, you know, where I, how to how to organize newspaper sources, because if you're following that thing of, you know, where did I get this from, but if you've got newspapers, from four different places in New Zealand, but really what you want to know is, you know, what, where am I articles from 1920, covering the court case, sometimes, you know, they can be a bit unwieldy. So I'm not necessarily a good, [01:08:32] good role model for that. But those are two ideas that, you know, if you've got a very detailed plan for your book, you could do it by their grip your research that way, or, or even if you do do that, you need to keep track of where you got it from, because that's where you're going to have to be attributing a few references, so that someone else can find the same thing. [01:08:52] I'm wondering, just on summary, could you just reflect back on the last hour that we've been chatting, and maybe just [01:09:00] do a quick bullet list of things that if you had to quickly tell somebody, this is how the things that you need to look out for in terms of researching queer history? What would they be? [01:09:14] Yeah, well, let's just look at some of the things I thought about before we did this. I mean, [01:09:21] I think my key thing we've talked about is the thing of being aware of what's gone before, be aware of the broader context all the time. So you might think you're just looking at a quick story, but you actually need to understand the history of the town you're talking about, you need to understand the history of, you know, [01:09:37] sometimes you might need to know about the medical profession, you know, be prepared for that. But sometimes, you might need to think a bit more broadly. [01:09:46] than, then you might have thought, it's really important to see people and, and their own time and context. [01:09:54] All sources can be ambiguous, you know, so you've got to have a sort of a healthy skepticism, I think about that things, newspapers can be wrong. It's not just people are sometimes critical of oral history, interviews for being, you know, [01:10:07] unreliable, but, you know, documents can be wrong, and newspapers can be wrong. So, always be trying to, we can cross check, and corroborate, being as clear as you can about what you're trying to do, you know, is really worthwhile. I mean, I think people who are doing this, in an academic context are lucky, because they've got a framework of supervisors, and [01:10:32] a whole proposal that they've got to do to do that, that I think helps you. But ultimately, you know, if you're working with a publisher, they will force you to do that as well. Think about [01:10:43] it think about yourself as part of a continuum of research and, and also as part of a community of researchers. And so be aware of other researchers who've worked in this area, other curators and the institutions where you're going to research, you know, academics. [01:10:58] So that, you know, you're not necessarily on your own, get, you know, you need to really get up to speed with them, what they call finding age, you know, which is indexes to collections, especially when you're doing primary research, databases and things. As, I guess it's a secondary source, think about theses, it's, they're sort of like, I think, once you've sort of looked at the obvious seeking resources, so you know, I don't know published works, biographies, textbooks and things, I reckon the next layer down is the thesis. So Has anyone done anything on this now, theses are indexed quite a way back now. And then, and then before that back to the 20s, and 30s, and things, there are some indexes, they called the union index of theses or something those are worth. And again, I would find that the earlier ones, of course, didn't have anything homosexual gay on them. So you have to kind of think about laterally. But in my case, you know, I was interested in and stuff from from MongoDB. And also, another big thing about queer history is that, you know, absence can be as significant as a presence, don't, it's not necessarily a problem, if you go looking for something, and it's not there, because that in itself, might be quite telling, because this is a story, this will often be a story about absence, because it's about parts of our history with these are things that, you know, because of community, mores, or legal professions, you know, didn't get talked about. And so, you know, it's it's not a straightforward process. You know, and I've said, you know, librarian, say, you are your best friend, I mean, they're, they're really great curators. [01:12:41] Always be. [01:12:43] Yeah, and I mean, just those basic follow the basic principles of good professional practice, and that will get you a long way in terms of getting support. You know, there is there are things like history awards that are offered by the Ministry for cultural heritage, creative New Zealand fund, writing projects, but it's also worth thinking of, you know, you'd be area that you're in different areas have trusts, Community Trust, energy trusts. [01:13:08] And then the last thing, yeah, just be try and be methodical in your practice, so that you leave a path that others can follow. [01:13:18] So, you know, footnotes and references, that sort of stuff, which can be a bit of a pain, but it's actually hugely important because it can also mean that people can, you know, understand the arguments you're putting up, challenge them perhaps if they want to, you know, track back and find your your evidence for doing that and then build on that and to

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