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So here we have the respectable Bill Logan, who's a counsellor? A gay activist and a revolutionist. Tell us a bit about that, Bill. Oh, my goodness. Which part of it the respectable part? Oh, why not? Um, no, I'm not very respectable. Um, I I. I, um I guess I grew up in the fifties and sixties when New Zealand was a very [00:00:30] quiet place, and I probably found that rather boring and then hit university and the Anti-war movement and got involved in protests and student power and all sorts of things like that, and spent my twenties mostly overseas, building a small left wing organisation, uh, and [00:01:00] learned a hell of a lot about Marxism and that way of looking at the world. Uh, Marxism is a programme or an idea for changing things, but it's also an analysis of how things are now. And both of those things have stayed with me. I still want to change things fundamentally, Uh, and I still think that it's important to have intellectual [00:01:30] frameworks to understand things. Uh, and the Marxist intellectual framework is the one that I think works best. So how did you get from kind of quiet, small New Zealand to wanting to do student politics and activism and Marxism and social change stuff. I. I guess that that had a lot to do with being at university at the right time [00:02:00] and probably also to do with being a gay man and not yet recognising it and therefore not quite fitting a and struggling to find a way to fit and a way to understand what it was which didn't work about me in the world. And you try all sorts of things that takes a while. And if you're slow like me, uh, to, [00:02:30] uh um, to see that actually, one very important part of it is a sexuality, which is, uh, a minority sexuality. So what was it like? I guess not fitting in, but feeling like you didn't fit in, What was the kind of climate like around gay stuff? Was it just not talked about, or was it actually quite vehement and anti or was mostly not talked about? Um I do remember occasional [00:03:00] bits that were talked about. I remember a forum on the laws about homosexuality at university in, say 1967. Where did you go to university Uh, and, um, this policeman a police superintendent was talking about You know why it was necessary to maintain [00:03:30] these laws. I didn't recognise myself as gay, but I and the people that I knew thought the laws were stupid. Um, and this guy was worrying mostly about anal damage through, you know, it was sort of bizarre, and an damage was against the law. There should be a law to prevent people putting them themselves in a position where anal damage might occur. Apparently, um and it just [00:04:00] seemed it seemed silly. Um, and it was possible to to to see the law as stupid, without without identifying as as gay at all. I didn't I don't. I realised now that I was gay back then, but I'd I'd hidden that from myself under all sorts of things. And I didn't have a fantasy life at all. I just, um, So you had that for any [00:04:30] particular reason or subconsciously or you didn't really know why or certainly didn't know why. Because I didn't know what was going on. Um I can see now that the costs of being gay in the early 19 sixties would have been enormous. No one was openly gay and got anywhere. No one had a real job who was openly gay that I knew. Um, I didn't. [00:05:00] I know there were one or two people that you could see in the distance who were rumoured to be gay or might have been gay or looked effeminate and probably were gay. Um, and, uh, lesbianism. Well, I'd heard of lesbianism, but that seemed even more mysterious. Um, um, so no. So what was happening in the eighties? Because you had a lot of stuff to do with homosexual law reform? What was happening then that, [00:05:30] you know, made people go right? This has got to change. Had attitudes really changed by that stage, and the law was trying to follow, or was it really not happening? And everybody just got sick of it or hm? I. I think that, as I said in in in 1967 already a lot of liberal university students and lecturers, uh, thought that the law was stupid. There was a big population of [00:06:00] people by then who already saw the law as silly. Um, but, uh, it was a minority all the same. Uh, that minority probably grew right through the seventies and also the various liberation movements. The women's liberation, Uh, various black power movements. Um, and, uh, so on they that those create a climate in which fighting for your own rights and a place in the world [00:06:30] was part of the way things were. And so in that framework, particularly after stonewall, which were 69 there was the development of of a gay liberation movement which had its reflections in New Zealand. And there are a lot of important pioneers that were working there. Um, and so you have this generational thing the previous generation had been, [00:07:00] uh, a a response to the wolfenden report, Um, which in New Zealand was expressed through the homosexual law Reform Society. Um, and they had the more liberal kinds of things, and they they were probably the people who organised the meeting, Uh, that we were talking about on the campus, uh, where this policeman was talking. Um, so you see, you get these layers of, uh, in in each generation, it's done in a slightly different [00:07:30] way. Uh, and, uh, in the early eighties, you had those two previous, um, layers of people and then you also had an apparent chance. It looked as if the politics could could go through in Parliament. And at that point, um, quite a lot of people got involved The big, big meetings. Uh, and [00:08:00] the one or two politicians who said, Yeah, we'll go for this. And so, uh, Fran Wilder eventually introduced a bill. How did Middle New Zealand respond? So you talked about kind of, um, there was a building building group of minorities that were like, This is a stupid law. What was what was the response of Middle New Zealand? What did you not really have anything to do with anymore? But it's a It's a good question. Um, [00:08:30] and I'm not sure that Middle New Zealand at first worried much one way or the other. Um, I think that at first it was mostly people who already had fairly well developed liberal intellectual ideas and gay and lesbian people and perhaps feminists who were for law reform and religious nutters on the other side who were opposed. [00:09:00] And most people didn't give a damn. And that was what happened during the time that the law reform was being debated in Parliament. Uh, where Middle New Zealand just couldn't avoid the question. And you had, uh, things in the paper every day and things on television all the time and demonstrations and petitions and stalls [00:09:30] on street corners and and and, you know, a lot of attention given so that every news bulletin practically had something about this homosexual law reform, and they started to have to make up their mind. And right from the start, I think most of them felt well, Why not? You know, it's nothing to do with me. Um, but that position sort of solidified [00:10:00] and became stronger, and a lot of people became more aware of the issues. A lot of lesbian and gay people came out during that period. And that meant that people who thought they'd never met anyone who was lesbian or gay realised that actually their brother was lesbian or gay, uh, or someone at work or someone they they drank with or whatever. Uh and so the amount of knowledge [00:10:30] about and of lesbian gay people just exploded in that period, and you'd come out by the stage or Yeah, well, I mean I I was a slow development IIII. I came out to myself in my late 20 and I really didn't. And I'd start to get involved in gay communities in Wellington. I've been overseas. Came back [00:11:00] to Wellington in 1980 got involved a bit, and then we were starting to have to do things public. Uh um, I had a bookshop. I was selling gay books, among other things. Uh, and my bookshop was a bit of a community centre. And what was your bookshop called? Capital Books. Um, and and [00:11:30] yeah, the the the, uh, the bill was about to be introduced. And the Cardinal Cardinal Williams made a statement saying how terrible this bill was. And the television people said, You know, you've got to put someone up to oppose him. And in the circle of people that were organising, everyone either had a job they were worried about or felt very young and inexperienced. I was just a little bit older, [00:12:00] and some people said you better better front this bill. So I found myself, uh, debating the cardinal on on television. Uh, and I think that's the way all my family and friends learned that I was gay was, uh, on national TV came out. That's fantastic. Were there lots of different groups working on on law reform? And you were [00:12:30] saying, you know, working with the lesbians or feminists people for law reform. What was that like? Well, I mean it. It was in Wellington where I was based and where we were lucky, because the newspaper was more open to publishing stuff than anywhere else. So we got a bigger, a bigger swing of in New Zealand. Yeah, we got a bigger swing of opinion in Wellington than anywhere else. That was for a whole lot of reasons, One [00:13:00] of which was we did more on the streets. We involved more, more people. We in we, we we we had a definite policy of engaging and involving gay people and lesbian people in their own interests. Um, and so there was a bigger sense of movement here. Um hm. But, um, the thing is that there was this this huge variety involved There were there were the party boys [00:13:30] who wanted law reform, but really wanted to have fun on Saturday night. Um, there were the old timers who'd been slogging away at homosexual law reform for years and would have accepted the slightest change. Uh, there were radicals who, um, wanted to, uh, you know, abolish uh, all sexual division and and didn't see it, even as a political [00:14:00] thing. But a social thing, Um, there were There were the feminists. There were a variety of different currents within the lesbian movement. Uh, there were nasty, misogynist old men. There were, um and everyone sort of wanted this common goal, but holding them together. And some of them thought that there should be nothing happen in the street because we'd look bad and that we [00:14:30] should be utterly polite everywhere. And when when our opponents said nasty, homophobic things at their public meetings, we should just accept that was other people wanted to do more than throw rotten tomatoes at them. And everyone thought that everyone else was destroying the possibilities of change. And I had the position of that. We actually needed everyone. We particularly needed [00:15:00] the feminists because the core support in the Labour Party was the Labour Party women. And if we didn't have the support of the feminists, we wouldn't get the support of the Labour Party. Women and the lesbians were really, really, really important. Therefore, Um, and some of the some of the guys thought that the lesbians were completely irrelevant to it, and we could They were more [00:15:30] trouble than they were worth. And they demanded too much attention and so on. And sometimes I thought they demanded too much attention, too. But, you know, you had to accept that. Um and, uh, then, uh, the the the, uh we needed the misogynist old men because they had lots of money. And we had to be nice to them because, you know, we had to get money out of them because we didn't have any money at all. You know, the opposition had, uh, considerable [00:16:00] funds from American fundamentalists and things like that. And we we didn't We didn't have a pen and you had to. The Auckland gay guys had a bit more than us, but we needed some in Wellington, too. And, um, we, uh we had to be nice to the the the these guys, and and and to keep diplomatic relations with them. So, in a way, that was my main role was being a sort of diplomat of sort of keeping everyone [00:16:30] happy with one another, and it all happened. Luckily, um, So what are the big changes that you've kind of seen within? Yeah. I don't know. If you think that there's a queer community or communities What have been the kind of shifts that has happened since law reform? Do people kind of think Oh, thank goodness we don't have to work together anymore. See you later. Oh, it might be a little bit like that. It's interesting, because, um, before law reform, [00:17:00] while we were still illegal, there were two major clubs. Um, couple of two or three bars, Uh, couple of six on site venues. Uh, you know, there's a whole lot more than now. You know what? There's no clubs. There's, you know, one bar, 111 sort of nightclub, life type place. [00:17:30] Uh, that's all in a in a but in Wellington. And I think that's representative of right around the the the the country. Do you notice any differences between Wellington and Auckland? You're saying that Wellington did a lot of street stuff? Yeah, Wellington has. It's a funny town because I don't know it. It might have to do with the whole design of the city and being held in by the the hills and things like that. But it's a very [00:18:00] concentrated city and it means that, um we get together as a community, even if it's only to fight um much more easily than in Auckland, where people sort of spread out too far away to fight. So they I. I think there's a lot more activists in Auckland, but somehow they never get to critical Mass because they never manage to get together. And I think that's the way it was [00:18:30] then. I I'm exaggerating. I did some huge stuff in Auckland, Uh, and but it was led by a group which was less open. I mean, in our case, we had a gay task force. Anyone could go along to those meetings and it was there that decisions were made, uh, once a week and usually it was a small group. People trusted that small group to make [00:19:00] decisions, but occasionally there was something really important, like a big argument about whether we have a demonstration or we should be respectable and everyone would come together and argue that out. And it it was a way of involving people, and it was a way which required people to make compromises sometimes. Whereas in Auckland there was nothing quite equivalent. There was a leadership, but it had a definite policy. [00:19:30] Uh, and it, uh, managed to to keep control of things. And it it it it there There were some messages there that from the gatehouse and force of Auckland that we wouldn't have wanted to endorse. Like, for example, there was an upsurge of anti gay violence. Um, the Wellington response was we're gonna have lessons in self defence, and we're gonna get TV cameras along to to show everyone [00:20:00] that we are learning how to look after ourselves in Auckland. The advice was, Well, don't go anywhere without company. And be careful, um and and and so there's a slightly different kind of way of doing things. So what would you say to people now? Kind of saying, Well, you know, I've had law reform. You had civil unions. Um, pretty much, you know, there's no homophobia. Everybody's sweet ass and things are much better now or [00:20:30] what degrees of truth Or do you think that is? Well, certainly, you know, there are many opportunities for gay people to be openly gay and to lead lives which are OK in terms of the rest of the population. And people can go have a good career in many, many areas, uh, and be openly gay. You can be a gay doctor [00:21:00] or a gay bureaucrat or a gay businessman, um, with without any problems at work or without many problems at work. But, um, try being a gay high school student in New Plymouth. Um, and that's not quite so easy. Uh, or, um, actually, just try to be, uh, uh, an ordinary member [00:21:30] of a gay family of a of a straight family and be gay and realise you're gay at the age of 25 and negotiate your way through explaining to everyone that things are a little bit different than they thought. Not easy. And so there are still quite serious issues. Youngsters who can be very depressed, [00:22:00] Um suicidality, uh, really important thing that just amongst young people or ages, uh, the there's no doubt that young people are especially at risk, but anyone who is a bit marginalised can be at risk of suicide. And the fact is that [00:22:30] older people are also marginalised on account of their sexuality. It's just not as pervasive and as strong as it was, but someone's got one or two other things going on in their life or comes from a religious family background. Or there's a lot of a lot of if you get down to specifics, it can be quite difficult for many, many people. So you're still interested in in social change? [00:23:00] Um, what are some of the other things that you do? I. I know that you have various hats that you wear. Oh, well, um well, yesterday I spent at a at a governance workshop. I'm on the board. I'm the chairman of the board of something called the, um Drugs and Health Development Project, which runs the needle exchanges [00:23:30] in the lower half of the North Island for intravenous intravenous drug users. It's something that I got involved in, rather by mistake. Um, as happens in life. Um, there was some television talk show about aids early on, and people rang in with their questions, and we dealt with the necessity [00:24:00] for homosexual law reform. Uh, and, uh, that was being This was in, say 1984 85. I don't know, 84. It would have been uh and you know, we we talked about that on this television show, and the panel had come to agreement that, yes, we needed law reform in order to deal with AIDS, which was part of my objective for being there. But then someone rang out in with [00:24:30] a question of How are you going to deal with AIDS and needle users? And I made the obvious point that the same principles applied and that you weren't going to be able to deal with the possibility and the likelihood of transmission of HIV through needles without changing the law liberalising it, making needles easily available and preferably, uh, ending the illegal status of drugs. Well, of course, this, [00:25:00] uh, was not popularly received, uh, by the minister of Health, who was also on the panel. And I just said, Well, you know, you've got to decide, don't you? Whether you want to deal with this phenomenon of HIV aids or not, And if you're going to deal with it, you're gonna have to do something like that. And And as it happened, there were some bureaucrats in the ministry who saw the point and very quickly, a needle [00:25:30] exchange scheme was put into place. Um, but, uh, it just that intervention led needle users in Wellington to think that I might be a useful person sometimes. And so I have found myself having a continuing role here, which is fascinating. Um, it's it's really, um, you know, it's a it's a world. I, uh Yeah, I [00:26:00] wouldn't have come across perhaps in quite the same way anyway without this. And it's very satisfying in that. I think that we've been hugely successful, more successful than anywhere in the world, in keeping, uh, HIV out of the needle using population. Uh, and that's because not only do we give away clean needles, uh, but we [00:26:30] have users on the desks giving them away giving advice. And And, you know, the users obviously have some moral authority with other users, and they can talk about all the other things which you can do to keep yourself healthy. Um, and washing your hands actually is quite important, you know, to needle use and philtres for different things. Important So all sorts of self [00:27:00] care, which is necessary, um, and needle users are probably some of the healthiest needle users in the world and that saves money. And people mightn't care about the welfare and safety of needle users. I do. But people mightn't, But they do care about, uh, money and health dollars. And we've saved a shit load of them, frankly. So where would you like? Um, I guess diverse [00:27:30] queer communities in in Wellington, also in New Zealand to head or some of the places that you'd like things to progress towards. That's a good question. Uh, and I don't think I know the answer because perhaps we can't lay down a prescription of where we're going to head. What we need is the abolition of the of the of the barriers which prevent us hitting where we need to go depending on [00:28:00] on on what we want. Um, and some of those barriers have come down. But what are the ones that you see are still around? Well, it's still quite difficult to have decent relationships with another generation. It's it's difficult for gay and lesbian people to bring up kids, for example, can be done and and you know, lots of my friends are doing it, [00:28:30] and it's becoming easier, but we don't have a, um a good framework for it. Uh, it's not possible for, uh, AAA gay or lesbian couple to adopt as a couple. That's ridiculous. That that will change surely very quickly. But I'm not sure how How much difference that in itself will make. It's a important symbolic thing. Um, but, um, I think in general, [00:29:00] uh, it it's difficult to, uh, for younger gay people and older gay people to connect. And I think that's important because we don't yet know how to aim our lives very well because we haven't got very good role models. Uh, it's, you know, we learn how to be old from the people around us [00:29:30] that we know who are old. And if we don't know people who are old of our own life type, then we're missing so important connections and lessons and models. So I think that's, you know, I'd like to see better connections between generations, but on the whole generations, perhaps aren't very interested in other generations you've got take the realities into account. Cool. Thank you very much. [00:30:00] Bill Logan. Respectable Bill Logan for, um, yarn with us and sharing with us.
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