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Alison Laurie profile

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride in [00:00:05] Allison Lori is the program director of Gender and Women's Studies at Victoria University. Ellison is a longtime experts on sin it was tell us a little bit about their [00:00:19] women. Well, we should I begin? Yes. Why I come from Wellington. My background is, is modern. My, my father's people come from South Island, and labor, Marty and Cornish and my mother's painful was Scottish and from the Channel Islands, and yeah, and they were all rather interesting people with a lot of initiative. And that sort of thing. So I suppose when I came along, and of course, I'm part of the baby boomer generation, with a generation who grew up in the aftermath of World War Two. And the question then was that, you know, we were told that the Second World War been fought for us. We got everything really free open schools, apples, free education, free medical. And so we kind of grew up with a sense of entitlement. So I think, throughout the world, really, when my generation came of age, and understood that we're going to be discriminated against, because we were queer, or because we were women, or because of our ethnic background, or any of those kinds of reasons, this is where you get the big social movement of the 1960s, that people begin meeting together and saying, This is not acceptable. And we're looking at ways that we could do something about it. Now, that's not say that people didn't do things before, there's a long trail that goes right back. Especially in terms of queer activism, a long trail, it goes back, at least to the 19th century, with people who fought very hard to overcome discrimination to try to get the laws change to try to make a difference. The interesting thing is that as we start coming of age in the 1960s, we, we didn't know about any of that, because it was all Hidden History. For us, we weren't being taught about that. It took a long time before we could begin to uncover the fact that there had been people before us, and those people that actually had quite developed politics, and that we are grateful to learn from them. So that was, that was important to, and I suppose it's also been important to my generation, that we lived a very good trailer, so that that kind of invisibility would not happen. So as easily again, doesn't mean that that can happen. But, you know, and part of doing things like this recording, as all part of that, that we leave as many places as we can, and as many ways as we can, so that sometimes shorter survive, and people will know, people, the future will know who was here and what we thought about it, and what we tried to change and where we succeeded and where we didn't, and they can learn from that as well. So the six days, you know, the it was very difficult. For me in Lakewood, you know, any model homosexual behavior means present for seven years. And they did and we do people who did and the police and trapped them so that they would fall into those traps, and they'd be taken off to prison. For lesbians the way they actually, there wasn't actually law about sex between women, except the 1961 crimes, it is Venus, and for the first time, by criminalizing women over 21 was girls under 16, which you could agree with, but once you put a definition into law, you can play around with those ages. So. So that was a bit of a concern, especially since they were people who thought that, why should women get away with us? [00:04:34] So what age were you then? [00:04:36] Oh, well, we're coming into, you know, my my 20s. [00:04:42] So you're really aware of what was happening to gain me and as well as the weight and that included lesbians? [00:04:48] Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were absolutely we were there. Yeah. And the thing didn't then although man organized here was the Dorian society good. Women blade wouldn't have lesbians as members. So we couldn't belong to that, and also didn't have had six o'clock closing people. Students frequently say to me all tell us about the lesbian bars, you know, in the 1950s, in New Zealand, and I mean, must have been reading a lot of history from America. You know, New Zealand after 19 1918, you had six o'clock closing and you in pubs for shut on Sundays. And the alcohol legislative legislation around alcohol was very strict. And you couldn't serve food in pubs, for example, you couldn't have any entertainment, this was all taught to encourage people to drink. And women were not served in the public bar women could be served and ladies and eSports bars, cats bars with a cost twice as much as in the public bar. And the idea of ladies and escorts was to help prevent the prostitution because it really only prostitutes would want to go to Pepsi. So really, there weren't many places that lesbians could meet publicly, except for coffee bars. And so they were there were a number of coffee bands. And we were lucky in the post war period, that a lot of people had fled Europe, especially Jewish people come to the Zealand and when they arrived from the 30s onwards, and when they arrived at Philly, horrified to see that there was clearly so little here. And so they started delicatessens, and coffee bars and things like that. So gradually, you know, we got a few minutes, it's like that. And these coffee bars in particular, the control room and walk Island. And the taste of tight here became important meeting places for for us and we called ourselves camp, we didn't really put us as queer that was regarded as a dream of derision. And these friends didn't use the term loosely. And it was also weird you wouldn't here is [00:07:02] when did Lee's been coming to you from the 1970s. But [00:07:06] it's been few minutes politics, right? whole different question. So we called ourselves camp. And the etymology of that, is probably we normally we thought it was spelled with a K. It was using the Australia as well. And the advantage of that was said to be that it stood for known as male prostitute. And it was an abbreviation used by the New South Wales Police on files of men who are suspected of being homosexuals. So women use that. We use that as well. Yeah, yeah. So that was the trim we used. So, you know, so we had we largely would meet at private parties. And we became aware of some of the overseas organizations, we became aware of the daughters of blighters in the magazine The letter and within became aware of the menorah, he's research group in London, producing Rina, three, it's very difficult, almost impossible to subscribe to these things, because you couldn't get foreign currency very easily. To see and often subscribe to them, but it was easier with the British one. So I spent time in Australia. I ran away to Australia, actually, when I was 17. [00:08:25] What did your peers think about that? [00:08:26] Well, they'd found this woman in my wardrobe. So welcome, goodness, sorry, that literally out of the closet. So in your [00:08:40] reaction, was it like you? You're crazy when you go to jail? or [00:08:44] what have we done? Or no, no, no [00:08:48] matter what's worked, and my friend, she lived with an uncle and I had here and all the time, and I just started a Universal City. That was the end of my first attempt to come to university. Yeah. And so we would, because my parents was worked, we would, she would, we would drive there and her car, she had a car. And, you know, that's where we could be together. And but the neighbors had suggested to my parents that I had a man that I was, because I could see this car outside. So it my parents came home to catch this man. But instead, they found this woman hiding in the wardrobe. So we were we just, yeah, so we just went off together. And, you know, I left University and we live together and Dean, and we miss a couple more people and that sort of thing. And we would end with this [00:09:45] strategy together. [00:09:46] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, we went to Australia, and the friends that we'd gone fishing with, we fled from Wellington for about three or four months. They really had to get to Australia, because the mother of one of them was trying to get her daughter committed. She was under 21. That's what they could do you see, of course, you're crazy. Because you're right. Of course, yeah. It's a symptom of madness, so your parents could have you committed. And, you know, human sexuality wasn't removed from the psychiatric illnesses diagnostics until 1973 72. So that was a very real threat the in any way I had seen. So I speak with my friends a couple of years in Australia, and saw the communities there, and all of that sort of things, pretty wild, pretty rough. Communities in those cities, a lot of New Zealanders, and of New Zealanders. [00:10:45] And Ruffin, what way kind of parties or just had or parties. [00:10:53] And all a lot of well, for example, the the public lesbians meet, and then many gay men was the Ritz Hotel and Kings Cross, and Sydney and the police raided at all the time, and the police would, even though also the, you couldn't, there was no law against lesbians, but the police, the Vice Squad thought they should be. So they would try to find reasons to embrace these pins that say they were drunk. You know, do all kinds of stories about how these beings got arrested, you know, throw a push out hotel gas into their hands and say you've been found for those stolen hotel glass? Yeah, sort of stuff. In a way, like a big game between a set of players and a whole lot of other people. It's very, very much outsiders. And also, of course, in those hotels, which were the only places where these fans in gaming, could we welcome because maybe many hotel owners wouldn't have you do you come in, and then, you know, you'd be trying out. So those were the hotels were, you know, quite big criminal elements also meet, you know, it was close association with prostitution. Somebody has been to Australia did live on the earnings of prostitutes, because people had problems getting employment. So they were pretty difficult, you know, public communities. Now, they were also very discreet networks, middle of middle class people that the thing is, if you were young, you really didn't have a lot of access to those middle class networks, because they would immediately think, you know, you know, gosh, you know, an underage person could be trouble, that sort of thing. So there wasn't anything like the kinds of communities that, you know, you might think about today that you've got public communities who are largely young, largely working class, and who do have quite a few problems and who associate you know, it is of course association with was criminal networks as well. So there's constant fear of police harassment. The police also in New South Wales had a heads rules, which made it quite easy to arrest and then that was true actually, in South Australia and Victoria as well. Normal was, which were called the consorting laws. And they've been set up at the end of the beginning of the 20th century to break up the gangs and Australia. And that was, the church was habitual consorting with known criminals. Now, habitual that means that it you'd have to be blocked. About from memory, something like about eight times as consulting with a known criminal now and known criminal is not one that's been trashed. Just No, just known to the police or suspected of being a criminal. So if you hang out with gay men, they're known criminals, because they're suspected of homosexuality, which is a criminal offense. And all of these bookings only for needed to be the did it tell you the others could be silent bookings. So then you might get this chart put against you a year later. And you've got to prove that you were not doing something on the 25th of July, two years ago. So that was was pretty successful. And you could get a two year jail sentence again. So [00:14:15] these were Australia, nose, Australia, New Zealand was similar or [00:14:20] quite different. They didn't have consorting wars, but they certainly had. Certainly, there was a vice squad and they certainly had similar attitudes to lesbians. And certainly some of those police officers did absolutely think that it was wrong, that lesbian should be getting away with that. [00:14:38] So what brought you back from the rough bars of Sydney I came in? [00:14:45] Did you try to go back to university? No, [00:14:48] no, I did, I did go to go back and do it to a couple of units part time. But by that point, I was, you know, working full time. So yes, sorry, I did that. And, and then and that was the time really we're you know, we've got these communities here. Those kinds of things are happening. And we know about these associations that are beginning will have begun in the United States. And and that holds out a whole other kind of hope that you that you might have a political organization, that weekend for social change. And I was already involved with things like C and D, the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, I'd been involved with that since I was at school. [00:15:31] That's always kind of felt. [00:15:33] social change, social change. Yeah. And let's say that social change as possible, and that you could change, and that, you know, why shouldn't you change things? You know, why? Why should you just accept things that you believe in one? You know, why? Who are these people that have the right, to tell you how to live your life? [00:15:54] Dr. of, we can change things as possible. Is it something that's still something around in the ether kind of today, and these times, or [00:16:05] I think that's a hot Christian? I don't know. I think the problem is, when you get an economic recession, as that you have, you can start to get a kind of sense of hopelessness, and you also start to get people who go along with the status quo, because they don't want to rock the boat. And they think that if they, if they hope the head down, that, you know, they're not going to get there, they're not going to be the one that gets at one. But of course, it's never the case. You know, it's what I call the new model syndrome. You know, that's what happened to people in Nazi Germany, you know, that name, Allah said, you know, first they came for the, you know, Jews, I wasn't a Jew, so I didn't say anything, then they came from Social Democrats, I wasn't, you know, then eventually, they came to me. And by that time, there was nobody left to speak up. And I think we forget that, you know, that, that if you don't try to prevent something, it will get worse. You know, there's no, I think there's no point hoping that that's all is going to be that will just allow this little thing to happen, would just allow a little thing to happen, like, get rid of ACC, and That'll be all. But as it doesn't work like that, if they're successful, then more things will happen. You can that's the one thing you can be certain off. And, you know, history proves that to us time and time and time again, and that's not going to change. You know, once, once someone has some successes, did they continue? I mean, and we all would, you know, we all would we all do, in whatever thing we believe in, you know, you see, anyway, I, I went to Britain, I joined imagery, I big the minorities Research Group, which was the first lesbian Association, it was kind of largely social, but that in itself was political, to have something like that we had discussion groups, and there was actually a whole network of people. Right, right. England, is was started by a woman called is my language who was pretty shocked when she started, because immediately she got phone calls from all over person of women saying, I'm in love with the woman next door, I don't know what to do, my husband finds out, I think I'm going to kill myself, you know, so sadly, it was very apparent that there's this huge need of people who were very isolated. And it was a need to create some kind of, you know, social services, those sorts of things. So, anyway, so I was there. And then I went travelling as you do. And I've went up in Denmark, and I lived there for a long time, and became a Danish citizen. And I was involved with the lesbian gay Association, which was called the full bond 1948. It was it had been founded in 1948. And that was, that was very good to get that experience of living in a society which had a very strong commitment to social justice, which was very progressive, where you worked with and learn from people, you know, in, you know, in one of those typical European, quite conservative lesbian gay associations, which had been founded after they will years who actually, they, they were the inheritors, of all those pre war organizations about which we hadn't known anything. Like the first field organization founded in 1995, and Berlin. Like the extensive network of organizations that existed until wiped out by the Nazis in 1933, in Germany, and then occupied Europe. About which, I don't know that until you going to live and work in those countries, and even they were only beginning to uncover information about what had gone before. Because so much important one before being so systematically destroyed by by the Nazis. So anyway, that was very good with that organization. And in [00:20:27] you know, then gay liberation came, I was there when graduation began. And that really revolutionized the political approach as we talk, because the approach of calibration wasn't that there's a sit minority that should be seeking civil rights are human rights, the view of good oppression, I mean, it's still totally revolutionary today, which is, you know, the aim was to bring up the lesbian and gay men and everybody's head. And the problem is heterosexuality. So let's examine their, and see just what's wrong with it, and why it's compulsory. And actually, if it was so natural, why it wouldn't need to be made compulsory, because everybody would just be, you know, flocking to it. So those researchers, calibration were very powerful and very important. And, and, you know, that was how our politics in developed and then very soon, lesbian feminism developed. And because with the newly emergent ideas of calibration, and the big proliferation of a lot of people joining those organizations, you got a lot of very conservative came in, who had never really worked with women. And effect, they were more conservative really than straight men might have been, but at least straight men had, you know, it's a Lyft, with woman, and, you know, they be trying to get along with her. And she might be, you know, tell them sometimes, but, but some of those gaming really had had very little to do with women, and they didn't want to, and that the idea about working in a mixed organization, these new ones who are coming in, once will use will, of course, the women should be doing the typing and making the coffee, and of course, they would be making the important speeches. And so please be an [00:22:19] issue taken with and [00:22:21] so at least we instead of feel quite agitated, and this is worldwide thing to get reports from New New York and watch out the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, same thing to enter the women's movement and the feminist movement, there's a similar thing happening because there's more conservative women began to join these women's organizations, you know, the cost of the vanguard are pretty outdated. So there are a lot of these fields. But then you want to attract more women, and then that the and then those who want to say, oh, people want fit, we will Libyans don't take that sign along to the demonstration, that is lesbians support abortion rights, don't put lesbian on the sign, everybody will think we lose pins. So this one's kind of found themselves in a position of, you know, dealing with the homophobia, the least the phobia of straight feminists and some some parts of the women's movement and dealing with six or nine, some parts of the gay movement. So then you get the rise of separate these organizations. So I try to at this time that I come back here, I mean, in between, I go to the states and, you know, go around what those organizations do, and it was very exciting, and everything was happening. And you know, it was a great time. 70s was a terrific time. because everything's impossible. It's a real watershed between the old and the new. This is the, this is where the the baby boomer generation really come together to make fantastic very rapid social changes. And things are never the same again. And that's the point of, you know, or people learning from other progressive organizations, particularly the black civil rights movement, so that out of concepts like black pride, you get things like gay pride, lesbian pride, and visibility. And these kinds of ways of political action, which no longer are reliant upon just accommodating. And being grateful for whatever crumbs might fall off the table of the powerful, but actually starting to manned a seat at the table. And we're in the end saying, why shouldn't it be? Why Why should I be here at this table making sessions with you? I'm not why should I be crawling around on the floor, grateful for whatever little crumb you might be choosing to give me. So it was a very important time. And I think also, it's a time that you know, the periods in history, which were revolutionary, in that sense, totally, you know, people who, people who were alive joining French Revolution, and the late 18th century, say similar kinds of similar kinds of things and words with, for example, in his poem that about the French Revolution, your bliss was it in that time to be alive between young was very heaven. Because these are moments in history, when things are moving very fast, and you feel it that you're on the crest of a wave, you're all moving in the same direction, and change can happen. And you can see it happening daily, you can see that, you know, you're making, making changes [00:25:36] when that's when it stopped. [00:25:38] Well, there's a lot of consolidation to do. Yeah. You know, and, and needing to evaluate a lot of the things that had happened. So I mean, I came back in 73, we we started the sisters family quality, that was the first lesbian organization here, these days, that seems like a pretty silly title. But you couldn't use this when you couldn't get it newspaper, they wouldn't print it. A lot of women absolutely didn't want to call themselves at home if all we thought was an advance on him sexual because at least at kind of meat will lover of the same rather than just going six all the time. And it had a decent acronym, which was shieh. We started the magazine circle out, which was New Zealand's first lesbian magazine and that width that ran from 1973 till 1986. So it's still the longest running history magazine. And we started club 41 here in Wellington, which was an IBM street that was the first big fan club here in Wellington. And really a slump, what was what was a couple women. [00:26:47] So it was like a bar or a bar. [00:26:49] Yeah, selling liquor illegally. Lovely, because you're doing it through a ticket system as happy. So people are the tickets and in exchange for the tickets to the alcohol, I [00:27:02] say. [00:27:04] So, eventually, that eventually, you know, they'll be in the place would be writing and that sort of thing. So eventually get close to 1977 because that happen, you know, points too often. But there's a real really interesting history around having, you know, a venue that sort of meeting place. Interestingly, with what's up like the club 40 when the policy was always with it, it was a club for women. And, you know, far from lesbian feminist being policy protest at that time. The idea was that he wanted to welcome women who identified as here for sexual and everything because they would immediately become lesbians. The idea was that anyone can be an ESPN and should be. And quotes by Martha Shelley, which people would write up everywhere, you know, in a society, we mean a policeman to believe in as a sign of mental health. You know, and in fact, and in Christchurch, because she began first in Christchurch, and then we, you know, started here, but in Christchurch, shaky the woman from she actually started the first women's refuge in the country. So women's refuge and to give them credit, they don't deny this that not only was the first refuge started by in the country, it started by lesbians, it was started by lesbian organization. And Joe Crowley, who is now an activist and walk on, she was the first sort of person looking after that refuge. So she lived there, she was only 18 at the time. And they had posters all around the walls was, you know, things like, you know, come out and yeah. And so these women would be leaving the invalid marriages and coming to this house. And it wouldn't just thought as soon as they get here that come out of these fans, and read the course I leave their husbands to their communities. And they did. That's the interesting thing, that a lot of women have those ideas. That's exactly what did happen. So, so much later, I must say, that was certainly certainly, and one of the things that was very clear on those years was that the single thing that meant that more New Zealand women could come out was the DP baby. because that meant that women had a means of support. Part of the DPP, which was introduced on activity to win really could not leave easily leave their marriages, it but the women were very trapped, and you'd had a society of, you know, which was, which was not particularly equal society at all, we're economic opportunities for women to be comically independent, we're not great. So you had very high rates of women marrying young marriage, from especially in the personal period, so a lot of women had, you know, ended up in marriages, who then realized that that really wasn't what they wanted to do it. So you had a lot of women coming out in the 70s. And he had a lot of ideas and that round, that's what they should do. So it really started to be quite a [00:30:05] big movement. And this is still more than a decade before homosexual law [00:30:09] reform. Oh, yes, yes, well, homosexual reform is able to happen because of these organizations. [00:30:14] So is it kind of like a critical mass, [00:30:16] it's a critical mass. Now remember, the gay organizations, you know, the gay men. So you've taught some of these been tweaking and mixed, okay, when I say shins and gay liberation, you've got some nutrients, we can separate these people, organizations, you've still got organizations like the Dorian society that are gay me in now. And then they decided they would admit women, and then after they've done that for a month or two, then they say that we can't have women, they get drunk fight. So you've got some guys separate us. You know, so you, so you've got quite a disparate lot of different organizations. Now, plus, what you've still got the camp communities. Now, interestingly, the camp communities in this country were, you're from, certainly from the 1950s. And probably earlier, but not much as documented prior to that 1950s. there permanently Marty and put on the working class. And what you get with Marty is a mess of urbanization taking place from 1945. So that three quarters of the modern population will have rural areas in 1945, by 1973 quarters, now live in urban areas. And what we do know is that a lot of those people, young people were, you know, this guy, and that which can have been a strong motivation for why you might want to leave the country area. I think an interesting and very influential person here in Wellington was Carmen, who was a triple repay. And in that she came true lead walk on the into Wellington and Carmen started. cabins coffee bar, which became a very important meeting meeting place. And then Cameron's balcony later, which became very important in Victoria Street. And so Kevin's a very flamboyant figure. At the time, Cowan would have identified herself as a drag queen, as what many of the people who worked there, at some point figures in the history of Wellington, people like Tiffany, and people who really were right on the edge in terms of actually creating visibility, creating meeting spaces and trying to test courage. Right. And that's one of the things you know, that you'd have to think about all those early communities will be quiet courage to be out there, you know, it wasn't the most comfortable thing in the world to be doing because we still haven't greater facility throughout the society, here, so calibration conferences start to be held the first lesbian conferences held in 1974, till two at Victoria University, and then the National Gay Rights Coalition forms, and that's an umbrella organization for all of these organizations, and I've got 35 organizations throughout the country. So that makes it possible to have a unified political approach. So that with various law firm attempts, that stats surface on the CRC can take a considered view of them. And by the stage the viewers that there has to be an equal age of consent. So we're not going to go into any half measures, the clear from the British legislation a few weeks after age of conceit of 21, you're going to stuck with that for years. And also, it's highly insulting. Why would you want a different age of consent, this is discriminatory, not going to accept it. And obviously, some of the more conservative at all the gay men believed that there should be lower form at cost. And you could also appreciate the position some of them had been president. So they thought that that, that any reform was better than no reform. So there are differing opinions about us that start emerging because of it's very difficult to campaign around a proposed with ransomware oppose proposed reforms around the free of bills, and because of amendments that were proposed, that would have had decriminalized male homosexual acts, but what would have made the promotion of homosexuality illegal? The Kurdish ran out of steam, so so it collapsed, really. So by the time we get to the early 80s, and the introduction, the homosexual law reform bill in 1985, if you don't have any of those organizations, what you have [00:35:13] the gay Task Force in Auckland and Wellington and they've been put together fairly recently, there were put together in 1984, there was a there was a quality bill coalition, and what club which wanted a pretty dicey bill that probably would have ended up including women and which lesbians opposed and which fortunately, the woman named Peters could say that that wasn't a good idea. Know, by the time you get to 1985, friend Walgreens to to put a bill through. But it was a very difficult campaign, because there was immediate mobilization from the right wing against that, and they were well funded and supported from fundamentalist organizations in the United States. So as a pretty hard campaign. So which we'll talk about that in detail. [00:36:07] So it's really important, I'm kind of getting a grasp of there's just so much history that's so important to kind of, yeah, I [00:36:14] guess now and what you need to get it all in context. So after the after her sexual reform passed in 1986, and we'd had that very hard for two years, it was very, very difficult. And we lost, of course, the human rights, part of the bill, which was the addition of sexual orientation. And we've been fighting for that for a long time, you know, since the inception of Human Rights Act 1977. Never Gay Rights Coalition have been trying to get sexual orientation and to do human rights bill, Human Rights Act. tried very, very formally with the homosexual reform bill, Pat, so but that was defeated. So that we emerged in 91, when Castro Reagan, but it what you got an ethical carpet, Kitano Reagan, who had who had taken over Marilyn wearing the seats, she agreed to take this private member's bill. So that was finally achieved, but the addition of several new grounds and to the act, and the 1993 Human Rights Act, and we managed to get, which was a big battle, we managed to get sexual orientation defined as heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian or bisexual. Because otherwise, we thought it was unclear. And it's difficult to know how, how well, people would identify the discrimination. Yeah, [00:37:45] so big, big struggles, big changes, big gains a thing as well, in the last kind of three decades? [00:37:50] Well, I have to, I think you have to get the legal changes done first. It's, you know, it needs to be understood that without the without the passage of the Human Rights Act, then that sets the stage, although the government gives itself and extension immediately, it applies to private business. So the so your predictions are not across the board, the predictions are on the provision of goods and services and the provision of employment and of housing. So goods and services in starts becoming an area, what does this mean? So, obviously, it probably does mean marriage. So that sets the stage for what then has to happen on governments, it gives itself an extension initially, until the year 2000. And then it extends it further. So what ever got but your head on, had to do something like the civil union act, because you have to, it's in accordance with that original legislation from 93. So everything stems from that. And also the in the statutory references Act, which goes right through all government legislation to ensure that there is no difference made between maintains its couples, at all people and in different cities. So it follows very logically, and that has followed into immigration policy now into the registration of births. [00:39:14] So very far reaching. Oh, yeah. [00:39:17] Yeah. And without, [00:39:19] you know, I mean, we used to have big discussions writer in the 70s and 80s, as to whether, you know, if you just work on lower form, surely you should work on, you know, changing people's attitudes. But the other side of that is that for many people, what changes their attitudes as the law, if they suddenly find out, they're going to be breaking the law, if they said, they're not going to Harley's been with the cops very quickly, and that was the evidence, right, it says, and there's evidence that I had, you know, known about from living in Denmark and living in Norway, and, you know, knowing that, you know, as soon as you put laws of that kind, and then within probably two or three years of those rules being dear majority people just accept them. So it really does this helps promote the attitude change now, and also, maybe the campaign for changing the law helps you do public education anyway. So that, you know, it all helps to raise it. [00:40:20] Cool. So 2010, what are your hopes for the future kind of? Well, I think holistically normalize, socialize, [00:40:29] vigilance. Because I think that, you know, if you I think that's really interesting lessons to be learned from the past. And I was just recently at a at an event about the Holocaust run by the Holocaust center here, and very interesting speech made by a Jewish speaker, who his family came from Austrian, and who spoke about what things were like in Germany, you know, Germany was the center of culture, it was tremendously progressive. It was the place where Jewish people had been able to make the homes and live free from discrimination for a long time, it was a center of art and music. And, and also, it was a center for homosexual activism. And this person didn't talk about that. But you know, we know that. So that there were big organizations, they were, you know, there was that there were dozens of lesbian gay magazines in Berlin, you know, they were organizations everywhere, you know, but this person talking about what happened to Jewish people. And that said that what had become really clear to them, you know, during the 30s, was, if this could happen in Germany, which was so gorgeous, it could happen anywhere. And that you could never be certain what might happen in a society, and what you need to think about other kinds of turns and twists and the things you might have home too, and the things that might allow other kinds of regimes to come to power, what those regimes might do. And what we do know is that depressions are dangerous, because people start looking for scapegoats. You know, it doesn't take much to Fein people up to decide that, you know, this, this group or that group, you know, they're, they're the troublemakers, if we just got rid of them, everything would be fine, you know, and whether you decide that you're going to fan up the flames against Islam as well, you're going to fan it up against Chinese immigrants, we're going to fan it up against queer people. It's a very similar kind of mechanism. And I think we'd be very vigilant about [00:42:43] that, and [00:42:44] watchful not only for what is happening to queer people, but any kind of any kind of mechanism which starts to create others other the other reign of groups that then it becomes permissible to treat those people as subhuman to start denying them rights to your start excluding them, and those kinds of things. So [00:43:03] I think, [00:43:05] I think it's very good that our generation coming of age in 2010, don't have to go through all the things that when we did not delete it, you know, and that they can just live their lives. Nonetheless, I think it's very important that they're aware of the history so that they so that they are watchful. And so also that they know how you can strategize and how you can fight if these things start to happen, what you do immediately, I think it's important to have strong organizations because I think you just working on your own, you very easily get picked off, I think it's very important to have strong organizations and good communications, because you know, that's crucial. Even kind of resistance movement has had a way of getting its message dissolve. And okay, so these sites, we've got the internet and texting and, as against we once upon a time, we had to type things up and and make copies with carbon paper and distribute some light there. I'd say to their losing, don't forget, don't forget, don't forget that technology, because if the worst comes to the worst, we might have to do that again. Because things like the internet can be controlled. Totally. Yeah, things like, you know, I mean, we now learn that Telecom, Telecom, today, we're going to all our text messages are going to get rid of them now. But I didn't even know they click that we should have realized that. You know, so. So we need some kind of independent way of ensuring that we have a method of communication that's independent, and might be very low technology, but that we can manage to do even if the worst comes to worst. That's important. And I think that's, I think it is important to have strong organizations. And it bothers me that we don't have as many organizations as I'd like to see us have and that and by, you know, membership organizations, it's that will supported economically and that are in a position to act. And if when necessary, you know, and yeah, all of that, was it. [00:45:34] Thank you so much for your time and for sharing with us all of that Ellison. Welcome.

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