This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity

Wai Ho: This is Priscilla, and Priscilla does lots of stuff, some of which is working at Rainbow Youth.

Priscilla Penniket: Do you want me to talk about Rainbow Youth?

Wai: Yeah, why not?


Priscilla: I'm the education coordinator at Rainbow Youth. That means I go and talk to students in the high schools; they're generally about 15 or 16. I talk to them about sexual orientation, gender identity, homophobia, coming out, and all those kinds of topics.

Wai: And how do they take that?

Priscilla: Generally really, really well. All of them take it really, really well. Sometimes there are some homophobic students in the class, but they're generally just trying to be defensive. You know, maybe they're gay or whatever. But yeah, they take it pretty well.

Today in class they seem to know a whole lot of stuff, and one of the volunteers asked them how many of them know a gay person really well, or something, and about half of them raised their hands. So that was really cool and it kind of made me think about the content of the workshops and whether it needs to incorporate some more stuff around people knowing more gay people these days now. So yeah, they take it really well. Yeah.

Wai: So would that be the specific schools in which you're going to, as in would the schools that let you in, would they be more progressive? Or, do you think that's a kind of widespread thing where like, wow, actually society's just becoming less homophobic and lots of young people do know heaps of queer people?

Priscilla: Right. I guess a bit of both. I do think society is becoming less homophobic. Well, I mean, if we're talking really far back in time then obviously it wasn't homophobic because sexuality was thought about in a different way. But yeah, like recent past, I think we are becoming less homophobic, but it's definitely, as well, quite school specific, like you said. I think in some schools the students will know a whole lot more queer people because it's not as homophobic and more people are out, so they're more likely to know them, whereas in the schools where they think they don't, they would know them but they just don't know they're gay because everyone isn't out.

Wai: So do those schools approach you or do you approach the schools?

Priscilla: When I first started working at Rainbow Youth a year ago there were about six schools that had had a relationship with Rainbow Youth for quite a few years around education, so they contacted me as soon as I got in the job and that was all set up and went really well. But since I've been there we've put together a new flyer and sent it out to every single school across Auckland.

Wai: Whoa! How many schools are there in Auckland?

Priscilla: 150, so yes, I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed!

Wai: You could get really busy if they all get back in touch.

Priscilla: Well, it's getting really busy already, yeah, but everything at Rainbow Youth is always developing and in flux and changing to the needs and things like that, so we're looking at changing the education program as we always are, but in the future it could include things like more educators at Rainbow Youth, like a team like other organizations have.

Wai: So a lot of stuff happening.

Priscilla: Yes, yes.

Wai: And how did you get into this role? Have you done queer youth work before?

Priscilla: Yeah. I kind of came out publicly when I went to university and found the UniQ down there, the queer group.

Wai: So this is in Auckland?

Priscilla: No, this was in Dunedin. Yeah, and I just started volunteering with them straightaway, so I think I kind of remember, it was like six years ago now, but I'm pretty sure they already had groups going when I joined, but I started a queer women's focus group once I became a member of UniQ, so I helped with that, running the group and facilitating and all that kind of stuff. And I would help when they'd put on events, so it would be like the... what's it called when you do the inside stuff? Like, when you're decorating. It's stuff to do with the decorating, but that sounds stupid.


Wai: Oh yeah!

Priscilla: Kind of like the interior design of the parties or whatever that's called.

Wai: Oh, cool

Priscilla: So I've been involved with events and organizing all that kind of shit and went to conferences and all that kind of stuff, so I was heaps involved in a volunteering capacity with the queer community in Dunedin.

Wai: You said you came out publicly when you joined... is it called UniQ in Dunedin?

Priscilla: Yeah, another UniQ. Yeah.

Wai: Or whatever UniQ down there. What were you before you were publicly out? Did you know but you kind of hadn't told anyone?

Priscilla: So you want my coming out story.


Wai: Yeah, why not?

Priscilla: I had a girlfriend in high school and we were together for about two-and-a-half years while I was at high school, but we didn't come out to any of our friends at school.

Wai: And this is in Dunedin as well?

Priscilla: No, this in Tauranga in Mount Maunganui.

Wai: So you grew up in Tauranga or all over the show?

Priscilla: I was born in Sydney in Newtown, which is now apparently lesbo central.

Wai: It's a very cool place there, yeah.

Priscilla: Yup, so that's very exciting. And then we moved to New Zealand when I was five and I grew up in Mount Maunganui until I was 18. I went to uni in Dunedin for five years, and then moved up to Auckland and I've been here for a year.

Wai: So you had a girlfriend in high school - the quick synopsis.

Priscilla: Yeah. I had a girlfriend in high school. I think I was with her for maybe even a year, with her and in love with her, but didn't think I was gay. I hadn't really come out to myself quite, I guess; I definitely hadn't come out to anyone else. I hadn't told my friends, but I really wanted to talk about the relationship because I was in love and wanted to talk about it, so I kind of made up this thing about this boyfriend that I had. Everyone wanted to meet him, but I said that he live really far away, just so that if dramas happened I could talk to my friends about it, but that was really weird.

The more I think about that now and the more I take volunteers into the education sessions to tell their coming out stories to the students, and the more I hear people's coming out stories and the things that people go through, because they all seem quite similar, it's just putting me in touch with the things that I went through and how fucking weird they are. I don't think non-queer people can get how weird it is to do shit like that, like making up a fake boyfriend so you can talk about the problems you're having with your girlfriend. That's so complex.

Wai: And was she at school with you?

Priscilla: Yeah, yeah.

Wai: So she was there when you were talking about your boyfriend problems?


Priscilla: No, no, no. No, she wasn't there. I'd talk about it and, no, she wasn't there.

Wai: Yeah. And so when you came out publicly in Dunedin had you already told your parents and did they know, or your family?

Priscilla: With my first girlfriend my mum saw us hooking up.


Wai: Accidentally?

Priscilla: Yeah, definitely accidentally.

Wai: And you got busted.

Priscilla: We got busted, totally, and we weren't even on my property. We were on someone else's property, so my mum was shitty at me. Well, this is what I remember of it. Maybe other parties of the scenario have different stories. But yeah, we totally got busted. And from what I remember my mum was really shitty at me, but I think it was kind of unclear whether she was shitty that I was hooking up with her or whether I was hooking up with somebody on somebody else's property, so it was unclear what she was shitty about, but she was shitty. And she asked me if we were together, and I was freaked out because she was shitty so I said no, and then that was that, which kind of worked out well because she could just stay all the time and she was just my friend. [laughs] So that's kind of positive, I guess.

Wai: Do you have brothers and sisters?

Priscilla: Yeah, I've got one brother. I can't remember what he thought about it back then, but yeah, everybody's totally sweet with it now.

I think they'd be... although, it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning: I'm pretty sure they would be really, really shocked if I brought a guy home as my boyfriend. But then I was thinking, would they? Maybe if I brought a boyfriend home they'd be stoked, like, yay, finally she's straight! But I doubt that.

Wai: So, do you talk about it at all, or it's just one of those not-talk-about things?

Priscilla: Um, talk about in what capacity? Yeah, we definitely talk about it. It's nothing that I feel uncomfortable about. Like I said, I'm pretty sure they'd be really surprised if I brought a guy home, so they just know that's who I am, and there's definitely no weirdness around that at all. Definitely I would bring home any partners - that's just totally normal.

Wai: So was your mum kind of sweet as about queer people or gay and lesbian people when you were growing up? Were there any messages that you kind of got from her?

Priscilla: Well, when we were in Australia... Or like, my brother's Godmother is a transgendered person, and I think they hung out with the queer community heaps, mainly before we were born. That was like their social circle, I think, is my impression from what they tell me. And my dad's made a documentary called Man into Woman, and he made in the '80s and it's screened in cinemas and stuff.

So yeah, it seems like this massive queer history, but my mum and dad split when I was five so I grew up with my mum and my stepdad, and they didn't have a queer community of friends then.

Wai: But they didn't say really homophobic things and that stuff.

Priscilla: No, they didn't.

Wai: That's good.

Priscilla: Yeah, that is good. They didn't say homophobic things. I do remember, though, watching the Topp Twins on TV and I don't... Yeah, this is the thing, I was grossed out by them. Of course, obviously now I just think they're fucking amazing, but I was really grossed out by them. And I think, obviously when you're young you're like a product of your environment or whatever, so surely there must have been some kind of weird vibe towards people doing drag stuff.

Wai: Maybe it was school. What was school like, the attitudes there?

Priscilla: Yeah right. At high school it was definitely not cool to be gay, definitely not. I went to an all-girl's school and there was supposedly this group of lesbians there that apparently they sat behind K block or some shit like that. That's where they sat and there was like four of them and they were like vampire lesbians and they'd suck each other's blood and stuff like this. So that was the only kind of thing that was around at my school about gay women, so it wasn't something you want to associate with, these vampire lesbians that are real goth. Like, it wasn't me.

Yeah, and there was definitely that finger-pointing thing. I'm pretty sure even the straight girls would be scared that someone would point the finger at them and call them a lesbian. It's like everyone felt - I'm sure this wasn't just me projecting - but, I'm pretty sure it would be the worst thing to be called a lesbian, and you kind of live in fear that someone's going to call you that and then other people might believe it, and then you're going to be the lesbian and everyone's not going to want to get changed near you in the changing room, and shit like that.

Wai: So coming out at high school was definitely not an option.

Priscilla: No, but thinking about it now, I don't know. I mean, I was friends with everybody; I think it maybe would have been fine. Maybe. I don't know.

My mum also went to the school, so I didn't... This is another thing I heard in a volunteer's story about, this idea about not wanting to shame her, that's how this volunteer said it, and yeah, that resonated heaps with me. I felt responsibility to not embarrass her at school.

Wai: Yeah. Yeah, so is it kind of just freeing because, I guess when you were at university your mum wasn't there, but also moving away from everyone, did it kind of free you to feel that you could come out there?

Priscilla: Totally.

Wai: And did you struggle with it in yourself, or it was just that the social situation's changed, so I can come out, or did you actually feel happier about being queer?

Priscilla: I think it was just the social situation that had changed, because I met my first other queer woman in 7th form - that was not my girlfriend - and we went and visited her in Dunedin, me and my girlfriend. And she had all these queer friends and I was just like, oh my God, there're other lesbians! Like, I just seriously thought there were no lesbians in the whole world, I think.

Wai: Apart from the Topp Twins.

Priscilla: I didn't know they were lesbian. That happened when I saw them on TV when I was like 10 or whatever, and I was really confused. And that's another thing. I was the bully at school - like, the homophobic bully.

Wai: Oh no! [laughs]

Priscilla: Yeah. I had homophobia phobia.

Wai: [laughing] So maybe your education stuff is trying to undo all of that.

Priscilla: Totally! I totally say that when I'm in class. Yeah, because one of the terms I describe in the workshops is homophobia phobia, which is the fear around encountering homophobia yourself. So like, acting out, in whatever way that is, because you're scared that you're going to get bullied in a homophobic way. So that's what I was doing at school. I was so scared that people were going to say that I was gay, and I was gay and I didn't want anyone to know, so I would police other people's sexuality so that no one would police mine. I mean, it's fucked. It's that power dynamic thing, but I thought if I had power that nobody would have power over me.

Wai: Oh dear! How things have changed for you then.

Priscilla: Yes. Yes, very much so.

Wai: So what's it like being queer now? I guess your job plays a big part of that, but do you encounter homophobia today, these days and now, and that kind of thing? Are you quite chipper as a queer person in the world?


Wai: That's a weird question.

Priscilla: Well yeah, I feel pretty chipper, but yeah, I do encounter homophobia, too, so both of them.

I run in queer circles, I think I'm realizing more and more. Like, whenever I hang out with not-queer people I'm like, whoa, this is different! Not as in I never interact with straight people - not that at all - but I take for granted that the communities that I'm in are queer, in one way or another, but pretty much queer. So, whenever I'm hanging out in scenarios that aren't queer I feel really weird, and I would call that homophobia, yeah. [laughs] As in, I feel weird... You're looking at me confused. I think that's homophobia because the weird feeling is coming from... I don't feel like it's coming from myself because I have deconstructed my homophobia pretty much, I think. I think there are still a few things I need to deconstruct, and I'm working on those, but the majority, like my general view of being queer, is pretty positive, so when I'm feeling abnormal I know that it's not coming from me.

Wai: So is it mostly a feeling or have people said stuff or is it a look or an assumption?

Priscilla: It's like an ignorance, I think is what it is. Ignorance, for me. Especially, this is what has changed for me becoming an educator: I've become way less cynical, which I think is really nice. Not that I was ever really cynical.

Wai: What about it has made you less cynical? Is it a change-is-possible kind of thing?

Priscilla: You know, I'm trying to teach about homophobia and the ways that it happens, and I've realized, because I really care about my job and I want to do it, it's my passion, it's not just something I'm doing, I'm doing it because I feel like it's going to make some difference and I want it to be really effective. I'm not trying to make homophobic people feel bad; I'm trying to let homophobic people know that what they're doing is hurting people.

And out of that, I've for some reason come to this point where I feel like all homophobia doesn't really come from a place where people are trying to be mean. I feel like it's coming from a place - well, many places, but all of them are just ignorance. Like either the person being mean doesn't know any gay people, so they've got all these weird stereotypes that they're perpetuating and putting onto people, and that's homophobia, but it's just because they don't know anybody. They don't know any better.

Or, like I was, they're scared that they're going to get bullied so they bully people, which just also comes from fear. You know, just all these things that can be really easily changed through compassion, I feel. I know this is sounding really funny.

Wai: No, it's not sounding funny.

Priscilla: But I just feel like giving compassion is the way to make things change, so I try and do that in the workshops.

Wai: So, obviously, homophobia you'd like to change in society. Are there other things that you can kind of see in society that you'd like to change, not you personally, but in general, society to shift towards?

Priscilla: Right. Well yeah, I think that's where I was heading with homophobia coming from ignorance. So, an example of me feeling abnormal in places is if people don't know anything about being queer, or even being in an environment... for example, I was at a party on the weekend - on Sunday or something - and talking to this person about some interesting stuff. And then I said something about a party with all women, or something, and then they were like, oh, okay. Really? And I was like, well, yeah.

I think we were talking about comfortability levels or something, and I was like, yeah, I generally feel pretty fucking comfortable; because I think there were heaps of people there that I didn't feel comfortable around, and we started talking about that for some reason.

And then he was like, well what do you generally need to feel comfortable?

And I thought that was weird anyway, but then I was like, well probably if it's a room of women I'm probably going to feel pretty comfortable.

And then he was like, oh really?

And I was like, well yeah, I guess it depends on the women, but yeah, probably.

And then he was like, okay, what other scenarios?

And then I was like, well I feel really comfortable in queer environments.

And he was like, queer?

And then I was like, yeah, I'm queer.

And then he was like, you're queer? It was as if he just did not understand why I was saying that I was queer, as if I was calling myself odd or something like that. He just did not get it.

Wai: So he didn't know it was a reclaimed term?

Priscilla: No. [laughs] No, he didn't. He didn't know anything about it at all. And I feel like having more compassion in some areas of my life, I have way less compassion in other areas now. Like, I can't be an educator at work and educate in my personal, private life. So he was like, "Queer?", and I'm like, sorry man, I just can't explain this to you. I just don't want to have to explain this to you right now. And he was like, oh, okay, and walked away. [laughs]

So for me, that's an example of homophobia, and when people hear that I think that is homophobic behavior, they think I'm this fucking, staunch, weirdo, queer activist who is just pointing the homophobic finger at everybody who does anything that is slightly whatever.

But I feel like if people were to take on the idea that homophobia comes from ignorance, that it's not necessarily people trying to be mean, but a lack of information is the same, just like with racism. If you're going to say something and it's really racist, but you haven't even thought about it and you weren't trying to be mean, that doesn't mean what you did isn't racist. And I feel like it's the same with homophobia. Like, yeah, he doesn't know any better and he's just trying to learn, but I don't want to fucking teach him. Like, he should go learn himself. And I found it offensive, and I think it's homophobic. [laughs] That was a real big rant. Next question!

Wai: So, do you see yourself working in the community sector or doing community work in education for a very, very long time or is there a bunch of other stuff you'd like to do?

Priscilla: Yeah, there are heaps of other stuff I want to do. I think feminism is really important to me. I think at some point in my life I'd like to be doing something similar to this, but in the realm of feminism, more focused on feminism than queer activism.

Wai: Is there a lot of crossover?

Priscilla: Yeah, yeah. I feel like there is, but as well, I often talk about sexism sneakily in the queer workshop, and also I talk a lot about racism. Like, I try and get it all in there, but there's only an hour and the focus is queer stuff, so the topics are things like coming out, levels of homophobia, blah, blah, blah. So I feel like there could be a parallel workshop on sexism.

Wai: What would you say to people who say: Oh, we've done feminism! It happened in the '70s and '80s.

Priscilla: Right. [laughs]

Wai: Or is that too large a question?

Priscilla: No, it's not too large.

Wai: I guess it's still relevant for you, or it's still important to you. What parts are really important for you?

Priscilla: Right. Yeah, I guess that crossover stuff you were talking about like gender stereotypes, obviously, are a big thing within feminism and queer activism. Similarly with sexual orientation, I guess, like people feeling like they might need to be in box, people not knowing heaps of options. I think an example of all of that kind of stuff, a sign that there needs to be work, is when somebody finds a label and feels huge relief through a label. I think that's an example that there's inequality and that there needs to be work.

Wai: So, did you find a relief in finding feminism?

Priscilla: Oh my gosh, I found so much relief!

Wai: And where did you find feminism?

Priscilla: The biggest relief of my life, more so than becoming queer, I think, although I don't know. Yeah, I do.

Wai: Top five.


Priscilla: Yeah, top five relief scenarios. Yeah, for sure. I've had a lot of relief scenarios though. I'm really into labels at the moment, actually.

Wai: What labels are you liking at the moment?

Priscilla: Oh, I don't know if I want to tell you.


Wai: All right, we'll bypass that one. So, when did you find feminism or how did it find you? What was relieving about it?

Priscilla: When I was studying in Dunedin I studied gender studies as one degree, through a BA, and psychology as a Bachelor of Science, and then did my honors in gender studies, so in terms of this job it's also perfect. That's a bit of background that I have for that, as well as the volunteering, but I found feminism through gender studies.

In 7th form I took all sciences and all maths and entirely loved it and did really well, and then once I got to uni took the same, basically, in my first semester. But then I wanted to chuck in some other papers. You know, check them out, so I took sociology - one sociology paper and one gender paper, and I took the gender paper because it had the word sexuality in the title and I thought, oh my God, there might be some lesbians in that class.


Wai: You had ulterior motives!

Priscilla: Total ulterior motives, and then it just totally made the path of my life, thus far.

Wai: Because you found the lesbians or because you took the paper?

Priscilla: No! There weren't any lesbians in the class, I thought, but it turns out one of my girlfriends after that was in my class. But no, I think there were a whole lot of queer women in that class, but I didn't notice and nobody said they were a lesbian, not that there is a lot of opportunities to do that when you're in a lecture.

Wai: So it was a big relief when you discovered feminism.

Priscilla: Yeah. I think the main thing for me actually, when I first came across feminism, was about - it might change - but I feel like I'm one of those women who are often portrayed in movies as really ditzy. I go up at the end of my sentences when I say stuff. I giggle, I say totally a lot. I zone out quite a bit when I'm trying to think about stuff. I like to wear certain things in certain ways, sometimes. And I think those kinds of women are always slagged off in movies, and for me, feminism was about being proud to be whoever you are and being proud to be a woman. I find it hard to say I'm proud to be a woman, because I'm thinking about gender at the moment, but when I first came across feminism it was amazing to feel really positive about being a woman. Yeah.

Wai: So that was kind of a big relief for you, to be like, cool, I can be this way.

Priscilla: Yeah, definitely, and heaps of it was theoretical, too. Like, I loved the mind trip that it took me on, which was like the first alternative world that I came across actually, feminism, and realizing that you can have different lifestyles. I learned about that through feminism. And realizing that you could think about things in a different way, conceptualize life in a different way. And that language is constructed. I learned the concept of deconstructing stuff through feminism, so yeah, that was massive for me because that's how my mind works now. It kind of formed my mind. Feminism formed my mind, yeah, so that feels nice. [laughs]

And as well, learning to deconstruct stuff, I could deconstruct the fucked up shit that had happened in my life, from a place of strength, not from a place of victimhood or angriness. Obviously I love being angry, and I think that's really great; it's a good step, but not just taking shit and letting people say stupid ideas that make you feel weird. Feminism allowed me to realize that I'm feeling weird when people do certain things, and gave me the strength to speak up, because I'd always been really outspoken but I'd never had anything to back me up with why what people were doing was making me feel dumb.

Wai: Well, that's pretty cool.


Priscilla: And also, it's totally constructed my analysis of the world. I see everything through feminism now. When I see people interact, I look at the dynamics through that lens, and all kinds of topics, for me.

When you're going about learning something new, like I wrote recently this thing about the anarchist feminist hui that I went to that had a theme of decolonization and anti-racism, and I was writing up about the experience and saying how for me, learning about that and having ongoing learning around that, I'm always bringing it back to feminism. Like, whenever I'm trying to learn something new I bring it back to my analysis of the world that I have through feminism, and how structures work that seem to inherently, at the moment, privilege men over women, and applying that to other topics in other areas where people are underprivileged.

Wai: So, relating that to queer communities.


Wai: That was a good transition, eh? How do you - maybe we'll talk about Auckland or maybe New Zealand - how do you see queer communities and where we're at with that stuff, and where you'd like to see it pushed or head, or is it all just trundling along rather nicely and doing a happy job?

Priscilla: Right. I love the queer community. If I didn't I guess I wouldn't be able to hang out in it all the time.

Wai: Is it the people or in Auckland is it the bars and pubs and socializing and events, or the whole lot?

Priscilla: What? That I love or what's there for us?

Wai: Do the people you meet through Rainbow Youth, you really love that aspect, or you love the whole lot of partying and there being big queer visibility events?

Priscilla: Right, I think that concept of queer communities, with the "s" on the end, I guess is kind of relevant in terms of that homogenizing of any kind of subculture, of thinking all gay people are the same, and they're not, so there's going to be subcultures within the queer community, and I don't like all of those aspects. I don't know; I'm not into chess and maybe there's a queer chess group or something. I'm not going to go to that. I like chess, but I don't have time for it at the moment, and I'm not actually that good at it and have probably forgotten the rules, so I'm not going to go to that.

And in Dunedin I was on the queer soccer team, the queer women's soccer team, and had a few goes at the queer softball, but wasn't that good. So, I'm into sport, but I'm not actually really into sport right now, at the moment. I like exercising, though.

Wai: And bars and pubs are one of the visible focal points a lot of the time.

Priscilla: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I actually found in Dunedin that the queer sports stuff was quite big, and seeing I was doing in the UniQ stuff wasn't always necessarily bar focused, so that's cool. The sports stuff was more middle-aged queer people, the uni stuff was obviously more young people, but yeah, there's definitely a focus on drinking and stuff like that.

And I haven't travelled to heaps of queer cities around the world or anything, but yeah, I definitely get a sense that New Zealand's queer scene, just because of the size of our population, it isn't massive, and so the sub-scenes within the queer scene are really tiny and they haven't developed into really cranking scenes in all the different kinds of genres of whatever you want to do.

Wai: But you enjoy them, nonetheless?

Priscilla: Totally, yeah.

Wai: Do you see them as really supportive of young people and education and awareness and that kind of thing?

Priscilla: At Rainbow Youth I think we've done a really good job there to create awesome events and social gatherings weekly - multiple ones, weekly. There are six groups or something going on at the moment where they get together and have heaps of fun. They start new groups if they want to have new groups like animation nights and stuff where they all learn how to animate, and stuff like that. On paper, not their face or whatever. [laughs] So yeah, they do heaps of fun stuff, and I think they totally love it.

I don't go to any of the groups as a participant, but they all seem to be super into it, make really good friendships. The group for under-18s has like 40 members in that group now, and that's just going to get bigger because all these kids are coming out in high school now, which is so cool. Yeah, so I feel like there's a focus there away from alcohol, but I feel like it's pretty unique having Rainbow Youth here in Auckland.

The bar scene, yeah, that's kind of what I was meaning with the sub-scenes. Candy Bar up here has just opened, and that's like a queer women's bar. It's something like, For Women, but for Everybody, or some shit. I don't know - anybody can go, but it's woman focused. I love being in more woman-focused spaces, but I like gender variance in those spaces, but I like the vibe of there being heaps of queer women all there, and that's really exciting so I love going to Candy when there are certain things on that I like.

Again, I'm not going to go there every night that it's open, because it's open like four nights a week, which is pretty sweet for a queer women's bar. In my mind that's pretty amazing because I don't even think we have a queer bar in Dunedin. But I only go when I know who's playing and what kind of music is going to play, because I guess I'm kind of snobby with my music, maybe. I don't know, but there's heaps of music I don't like and I'm not just going to go to a gay women's bar and listen to shit music and just be there because it's queer and it's for women. I'm not going to do that, but if there's really wicked music and I'm going to have a good night, then I love it that that space exists.

But I feel like it's exciting, the idea of those scenes developing into more specific scenes, so that you can actually go to something where more parts of yourself are going to be acknowledged and present, as opposed to just your sexuality being there.

Wai: Cool! Thanks heaps, Priscilla.

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