Trevor Morley - Wellington Vice Squad

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride in zero.com. [00:00:05] I joined the place in January 1961 as a cadet, graduated from the police college at Trentham in August 1962. And spent the rest of my career in the place in the Wellington area, and mainly as a qualified detective in the Wellington Cod. Now, in the Civ, the staff are separated often the various squad, the Drug Squad and the cast squad and the bigger squad and so on and so forth. And the was a vice squad. lb at there was only two of us on the squad had to take the surgeon and myself as his detective. And I didn't asked to be put on it, you don't ask to get put on any particular squad. From time to time the bosses get together and decide that world trip has been this long on Geek Squad. So it's time we get him a bit of experience and some of the area of policing. And it just happened that at some stage in my career, they decided that I would stop doing what I was doing, which I think was the cast squad, and that they would put me on the vice squad. And I had no problem with that it was just another squad that needed to move on. What did the vice squad place? Well, it's interesting because in particular, in America, it's often called the morals squad, which is a very actually descriptive term. Because vices is a problem of not a problem. Though some governments see it as a problem, and some society see it as a problem. But vice is a matter of morality. What can be a crime in some countries of the world may not be a crime and others. And in fact, we've had that phenomena here in New Zealand just in my very short lifetime. Because there are nail Novi squads, and any police district anywhere in New Zealand, simply because our laws were relating to morality, in other words relating device have completely changed. But going back to the 60s and 70s and into the 80s. We did have a number of laws which endeavored to control the morality of the nation. We had laws and we may still have laws making bookmaking illegal, illegal gambling on resources, because the government wanted everyone to gamble through the TV, and they might get the text and so on and so forth. And there's often a monetary background to these laws. prostitution, was prostitution itself, per se, was not illegal. It was illegal for someone to importuned someone on a public street. And it was also an offense to live off the earnings of prostitution. It was also an offense to keep a brothel and various other offenses relating to brothel keeping in sexual crimes, that no I'm not talking about rape or any other kind of vine and sexual affinity that was handled by another squad in the Civ pornography, the Vice Squad would enforce the laws relating to pornography. And there was an indecent publications that there was an indecent publications tribunal. And certainly in my day, that related mainly to printed material [00:03:23] or these videotapes, we didn't have DVDs in those days. And in fact, when I first went on to the voice, God, the VCR, and the video cassette had night not quite been invented yet. So I can remember we your season had a lot to do with little small roles of silent eight millimeter colored film. [00:03:47] So there was a decent publications, prostitution and similar crimes relating that and illegal gambling, they will most probably the three areas of interest of the vice squad, and bearing in mind. And you know, one of the reasons why we're talking today is because sexual acts between consenting males was still a crime. We hadn't had that liberal [00:04:14] expansion of the law to make that illegal. So we would look at this that aspect of the law as well, in terms of our investigations. [00:04:23] So when you're saying six between males, are you talking? Are you referring to things Mike, trolling the beats or [00:04:31] not know what I'm talking about is that in those days in the late 1960s, and the 70s, when I was on the vice squad, it was on the fence for a male of irrespective of age, to quote, indecently assault, another mind, even though it may have been done consensually. Now, we didn't necessarily pay a great deal of attention to that kind of law, except that in those days, there were quite a few. What were incorrectly called transvestites, but which were adult males who would dress and female clothing and [00:05:13] a complication. And those days a male could not in law be a prostitute. [00:05:19] Okay, so you would have the phenomena of males versus females [00:05:27] walking the streets of Wellington, Vivian Street, for example. [00:05:32] But they weren't committing an offense because they weren't a prostitute. Had they been a female in female, female and male planning, walking the streets and terrifying for business, they would be committing an offense, but males weren't. But nevertheless, a number of quote strike unquote strike males would see these individuals in the shoes that they were a female. [00:05:59] And so at I would enter in some conversation around the corner or into someone's house or whatever. Now we became involved in investigating those activities. Firstly, because there was a crime being committed the crime of one mile and decently assaulting another mile. lb, there was consent involved. But that was conceived to obtain to some degree by fraud. Because the guy lyst member of the public, who thought he was engaging in some sexual relationship with a female was an actual fact engaging in a sexual relationship with a male. So there was that, shall we say, fraudulent aspect and involved there, which is why we tend to, wouldn't exactly say concentrate. But if we came across that kind of offense happening, what would draw redrawn to our attention, then we would investigate. So we have this element of fraud involved in a input tuning of members of the public, my main resistors woman who will not cross the chase because of the Lord, that were committing a criminal offense, because they were a male and decently assaulting another male. [00:07:05] So did you find that people would come to you and complain that this would happen to you? Or is it just when you discovered it by accident, [00:07:13] sometimes we would discover it by accident. And sometimes we would get complaints, we would sometimes get complaints from members of the public who, perhaps head shops or retail businesses, the kinds of things that we're still finding now happening in New Zealand, because the prostitution laws have changed. It's now Lyft, over to local authorities. And you know, we've got the phenomena down in Christchurch, where we're the prostitutes used to congregate in certain streets and the CBD no longer came because the red zone said they're going after the suburbs, and they're upsetting the residents of suburbs. So that kind of antagonism towards the sex industry [00:07:52] existed during my time, but for different reasons. And it still exists today, because people find it at social, and you know, the live on the face of the pavement. So we wouldn't patrol what you might call the beats, because the beats, as I understand it, from from from a male homosexual point of view, would be where adult male homosexuals would go to establish a relationship fleeting or permanent with another male, and everybody knew that it was a male and a male. But as I say, we would become interested in the aspect of a male dressed as a female because there was the fraudulent aspect of it. Plus, it was still a crime. [00:08:34] So when you saw street workers, did you actively discouraged from from being on the street? How [00:08:42] did that work? Well, it was it was an interesting situation. Because we we had no power to say get off the street. Because mainly being on the street, because they were a male, and miles could not be prostitutes, meant they were not committing an offense. [00:08:59] So I'm going we've talked to them, I knew who we were, we knew who they were, they knew we knew what they were doing. And if we have interview, they would, you know, very quickly disappear until we have it on a view and then they'd be back on the corner again. So it was a [00:09:15] not exactly a losing battle. But at least we would endeavor to keep them off the streets, because we knew that sooner or later there was going to be some disgruntled adult male was out there, who the next day, we might be coming the end of the voice quote, or getting the lawyer to ring us up to complain about what had happened. And they feel that they've been defrauded. They thought they were going to have some kind of sexual encounter with an adult female, embedded soon, but it turns out, they're having a sexual encounter with an adult male. [00:09:46] But if it wasn't legal for women to be prostitutes, surely, in the general public, they would know that if they saw somebody on the street, it wasn't wasn't going to be a woman. [00:09:58] Oh, no, no, not necessarily. The fact that it was that only females could be prostitutes wasn't widely known amongst the general public. [00:10:09] In fact, I would venture to say that very few of the men in the street would have known that I'm just trying to think of the of a corollary in regard to the law. But [00:10:21] I mean, there's just many aspects of the law that the layperson just doesn't have that. And it's only when you start getting into having to administer the law, such as the vice squad and prostitution, you know, the, if a woman was standing on the street, and you know, she appeared for intensive purposes to be a prostitute. And we went up and spoke to her she very quickly, you know, the moose, but if it was a man, they could stand the quiet brazenly almost. But the Panther is the the palms, like the Golem, to the Panther. That person was rolling things and purposes, a female a prostitute available for Hi, [00:10:59] can you describe for me the internal attitudes and the police force around the 1970s towards transgender, gay, lesbian people? [00:11:08] Not a lot of transgender people around in those days to start with genuinely transgender. [00:11:16] The first was just trying to think of what her what her business name was, and it may come to me. But the fact that transgender individual featured in a major court case that I was involved in, that actually was instrumental in reversing the law, or opening the law, whichever way you want to look at it. There's no perfect seed. Yes, a man can be a prostitute. And that was a case that we had with Carmen, it's been well reported on and I know cam, and I'm here extremely well. And I know she won't mind me talking about this. But [00:11:56] we had a an investigation where we believe Carmen was quite clearly keeping a brothel and all living on the earnings of across prostitution and committing various crimes under the crimes and operating out of her coffee bar in Vivian straight. [00:12:14] So we got an undercover agent to come up from the unsafe and elderly police officer and he went in there and spoke to Cameron and introduced himself to Cameron and had a chat to Cameron. And soon ahead, he spoken to here, and he had a bit of a gift for the gave his common. She'd arranged for him to the young lady who was on the premises, to go off to his hotel room, which we'd arranged. [00:12:37] So he left with this woman went to the hotel room we followed, and gave him X amount of time to get part the way into the operation. The hokey undercover agents, of course, never, ever engaged in any sexual contact with any of these women. And that transpired that this woman and I use those words in quotation marks, what not a woman, he slept, she was transgender. And it transpired that he had been born a male baby boy, for all intents and purposes, a young boy. But later in life, he had gone overseas and had a full physical sex change operation, breast implants, the whole thing. And I in fact, when we went in, burst into the hotel room, I remember seeing him standing naked beside the bed. And he sure look for all intents and purposes, like a female. And it was only when we were back at the vice squad office, interviewing him about what had happened between him and the undercover agent and him in common that we discovered that he was, although the word transgender then hadn't been sort of invented, if you will, he was for intensive purposes, a male, genetically he was and biologically he was. So they put us in a bit of a bind, because his he had been born mile and was for all intents and purposes, biologically a male, then you couldn't be a prostitute. [00:14:07] So therefore, how will we going to convict Carmen from running a brothel or living on the earnings of a prostitute. And it became a very, very interesting case, I think the chief judge, the Chief Justice heated at the time, Roy Stacy defended the cabin, and a lot of medical evidence that had to be given by both the crown and the defense [00:14:29] free side to say why this person either was or was not a male or female. And the judge, of course, had to leave it to the jury to decide whether they were going to convict Cameron and this I still can't think of his name. Anyway, the upshot of a was was that they did find both Cameron and this chap guilty of the offenses of living off the endings of prostitution, etc, etc, which in effect said yes, a main can be a prostitute under New Zealand was what they call case law, not actually written in stages, you can't go and pull a book down and say, you know, this is an offense, but by case law, establish the fact that user main could be a prostitute and New Zealand law. So that was [00:15:13] that would have been sort of the first notable instance that I would have had any dealings with a trained genuine transgender person, and that would have been I suspect, about 1971 or 72. You see, Cameron was for all intents and purposes always a guy you know there was no doubt in anybody's mind that she was underneath the flamboyant see that she was a guy whereas this individual [00:15:43] character winter [00:15:46] can't think she had a fighter who naked photographs and truth and we might have been I'm not certain I just can't remember at the moment, but yesterday seemed a bit of a benchmark [00:15:57] but as I said, in terms of genuine trains genius people she would be one of the very first that I certainly came across on voice there were others that came along and years gone by, but they were by and large, what we miss named is transvestites I just mean the woman's clothing people like Carol if it was Carol I wouldn't I would never call Cameron a transgender because I'm pretty certain she was she had breast implants from the point of view of physical operation she needed went any further than that I'm pretty soon and I think she said so itself. [00:16:34] So it [00:16:35] was mainly a mixture of actual prostitutes women, the occasional transgender such as as Carol you mentioned and then people like Cameron who were [00:16:48] still overtly a male [00:16:52] but I suppose depending on how many sheets to the wind Julia you know, you could be confused thinking that she wasn't a mile and that she was a female. But I mean, we were dealing with these as I say this name to transvestites quite a lot. And it never ceases to surprise me how I presumably strike individual could import chain one of these transvestites and not realize that they were dealing with a main [00:17:25] because you know some of them were very big boys. And then they they gab they just they were almost caricature as a females you know to but I suppose that's because I was dealing with them all the time and talking with them and interacting with them and that sort of thing became very obvious to me that they were miles but I suppose if you you know staggering out of the [00:17:51] hotel at you know 10 o'clock at night and you saw someone dressed in a skirt across the road you know, the brain says hey, that's a girl but just going on here talking about the beats in terms of male homosexuals you know, trolling if you look to use the phrase for for other males have a like inclination [00:18:09] we had pretty much enough to do without concentrating or investigating that kind of thing a lot there were certainly crimes being committed male and decently assaulting another mile lbs with conceit but at least we got a specific complaint I remember there used to be some in fact the still are that have been re refurbished means toilets around a lie all day. And they were apparently a favorite meeting spot. And from time to time, we might get a complaint from a [00:18:41] a strike male who had gone to use the toilets and possibly being importuned or there was a a male homosexual hanging around clearly wanting to meet up with someone for sexual activities and they that would be offensive to the strike guys so they might complain to us but we certainly never particularly targeted the beats and that sort of thing and really only [00:19:07] investigated activities of strike miles on beats when we got a complaint as a side with all the other Vice Squad things we had to we had enough to [00:19:16] do you mentioned the word important number of times can you tell me what that means? [00:19:20] I'm fortune means soliciting. In other words, if [00:19:25] if I was a male homosexual and I wanted to see if I could hook up with someone, then I would perhaps go to the toilets out of loyal by are the ones that used to be in town, the infamous ones we're column oil got caught, so to speak. [00:19:41] I would go there and I might going to stand at the urinal for just far too long, just waiting to see if one was someone was going to come in and some guy came in, [00:19:52] in even whether he made any recognition or any sign or gave any idea that he was looking for contact. The other person would you know, start talking to them breaks and introduce some sexual overtones to the conversation and that sort of thing. So you ever tuning soliciting, same sort of thing? [00:20:14] I'm just wondering if we can go back to maybe some of the attitudes within the police about [00:20:21] transvestites. Can you recall? Were there any words that were used to describe them? Or how would they treated with it? I mean, they treated with respect or but they kind of walk down or I [00:20:32] wouldn't say they were treated with respect. But then again, I wouldn't [00:20:38] difficult just trying to think of the right words the [00:20:43] they will say they will miss name from the whoever decided to call them transvestites on I know, there's just so many girls, they grew up in society. And it wasn't just a police jargon, it was a word that was widely used in the media. [00:20:57] And the word guy I suppose hit quite come into common usage then in terms of a male homosexual who looked like a male recent females, recent female planning. I mean, we would have raced transvestites, we've perhaps come across them in a cow with somebody perhaps [00:21:21] masturbating them or doing some kind of a sexual act. So we could then arrest them for being a male and decently assaulting another man. lb, it was done with consent. So we would arrest them, put them in the car, take them down to the police station, interview them get a statement from them, and keep them in the sales overnight. [00:21:41] In the morning, they'd be given breakfast, we had what was called line up where they were the prisoners kicked overnight would be individually bought into a room. And just question as to what the name was who they were While they were there. And behind a big sheet of one way last me the rest of the Civ another staff on just so they can get to see who these people were. But I wouldn't say they were treated in any other special different way. They were just another criminal. [00:22:15] I mean, they were looked upon as having committed a criminal offense. So they just sort of process through the court and through the through the play sales. I certainly don't [00:22:26] have any recollection or even of hearing any sort of rumors of [00:22:35] transvestites or transgender people being treated in any other way other than that they were human being but they are crock your Chrome so we've got to get them through the process and before the court [00:22:46] with a segregated in any way in the police zones. [00:22:50] No Dallas central we had a pretty big devil. [00:22:55] Right row of one faithful ground for faithful row of seven. So I would think go to university when I was 12. We could have had upwards of 16 or 20 selves. [00:23:09] Bearing in mind they weren't there for very long. If they'd been arrested a siren midnight or one o'clock in the morning, they were only there from that point on until they went to court and about nine they get unveiled at courts and then only be in the station for about eight hours. [00:23:28] I would suspect there's no bearing in mind you see when when a detective arrest someone and takes them the under what's called the watchers. It's the watch the housekeeper who's a uniform branch constable who's in charge of all the prisoners and in charge of the cellblock and it would be that officer who would decide into which cell any particular prisoner goes. And I would think as a matter of course, they were most probably segregate transvestites. [00:23:55] I mean, if there's two or three of them arrested in one night them I put them all on one cell together, [00:24:01] if just for company for no other reason. But I doubt that they would in fact put them in a cell with another criminal. [00:24:11] Just because you didn't do it anyway. [00:24:14] fingers were normally segregated, particularly if they were arrested in connection with the same thing. [00:24:21] So many of those kind of rates happen on on brothels. [00:24:26] Oh, we wouldn't ride brothels. [00:24:30] I was [00:24:30] gonna say ondemand. There were certainly quite a few of them operating in Wellington. And we would get information from time to time usually from [00:24:39] Neighbors [00:24:40] say they'd bring up you know, they get someone to come in and tell us that you know, such and such a places [00:24:47] is being run as a brothel. So we would carry out some surveillance on the place see whether or not that was in fact, a brothel being running with a females only living in the house, how big your house wasn't? What number of bedrooms with it, who was the landlord couldn't be approached? How would people get up the hill when they get back that sort of thing. And you would assume work out that I hear you know, from eight o'clock at night, there's a continual stream of taxis going from the you know, from the cab rank and Courtney place, just down from I forget the name of the coffee Baron Marjorie Bank Street was frequented by Japanese Seaman. And they they would go to certain house Wellington, and it didn't take us long to work yet we so we do some surveillance, get sufficient evidence, get a search warrant, wait until a you know, three or four miles inside the house and crush at the front door. [00:25:42] So yeah, quite simple. And as I say, we would just do that, on demand, so to speak, you know, we, we might develop the case ourselves because of something that we've seen, you know, just driving around, I saw that kid that asked the other day, and now it's back at the house on the time. And I Well, the same people coming and going that sort of thing with sometimes development. So sometimes we get some information from the public. How did [00:26:07] you feel enforcing these kind of morality rules? [00:26:11] Interesting question. [00:26:14] I didn't feel anything in particular because it was a law that they were breaking. [00:26:21] And I'm just trying to think of a bit of a Corolla Bry in regard to other laws. [00:26:27] Take bookmaking, you know, we would often work on a Saturday afternoon because that's when bookmakers work. And we would go and kick in the doorways of shops because the guy was back at work. Instead of running his book from home, he run it from the back of the shop, or houses and what have you. Now, I don't gamble and mothers and horse racing or anything like that at all. But it didn't take me long to do it but a crash banging of doors to realize that bookmakers, were actually providing a service that is substantial on the services, thank you that a sizable percentage of the population actually wanted it, they wouldn't be in business. [00:27:09] And I just thought about that and thought it was an interesting thing to sort of way of looking at it. But it seemed to me that the state should have been providing some kind of a way to regulate this illegal industry so that it no longer existed and all the text that was not being paid on those earnings was going into the coffers. [00:27:30] So whilst I held this particular view that Gee, the government could be doing something about this, I never expressed it to anyone was just a purely personal idea or 10 it that I held in my brain. And I still went out there kicked in doors. [00:27:48] Type was another morality, law, abortion. [00:27:54] Now, when I grew up in Hastings, [00:27:58] we were children England family went to church once a month, Boy Scout, all that kind of care on the subject of abortion was never mentioned, because because in the 50s and 60s, you didn't talk about those sorts of things. Not deliberately, it was just something that you know, people didn't talk about. So I joined the place, and during the course of my 18 months as a cadet, and we started looking at all the crimes under the crimes, abortion, unlawful killing of an unborn child and safer safer. And that's where I first became aware really of abortion and how it was done and that sort of thing. [00:28:31] So that all [00:28:32] idea that's that's the crime. So that's what we do. And I was involved in several abortion investigations when I was in the Civ not because that was part of the vice squad, because it wasn't one of the squads was just collectively known as that general squad. And anything that came in that wasn't specifically named for a squad got given to the general squat, and I was on general for quite a while and did a number of abortion investigations. When I was on general. One in particular was a taxi driver, who would go around doing abortions, and he kept these abortion kit wrapped up in a I don't know, whatever, in the Buddhist, he's texting, [00:29:14] so didn't think was a very good idea. [00:29:17] There were other abortion is to operate outside of Wellington. And I again, I came to the impression, understanding or knowledge that this was something that shouldn't be a crime, but as a service, a health service that the state should provide to the public. Back, despite holding that view, and as a viewer still hold, I had to go out and enforce that law, because that's what I had sworn to do when I put my hand on the Bible, you know, [00:29:50] when I became a police officer, so and I think that kind of conflict, [00:29:57] what exists with many, many placement. Now, of course, and as I mentioned earlier on, abortion is pretty much legal these days, bookmaking much probably still exists, but not to the degree it used to. We haven't talked a lot about pornography, but I mean, the pornography that we were dealing with in the 60s and 70s, you can now go and drink for $1 a night down at your local video shop. [00:30:23] And that's all changed. And abortion is virtually, you know, a state provided service now. So all those crimes of morality are no longer crimes. So they've changed. But even if they hadn't changed, I would still hold the view. If I if I was still on the place, I would still hold the view that the state should be in a position to provide these [00:30:48] services. [00:30:51] Because there are people who need them from time to time. And actually, in regard to the abortion thing you might know the name of Dr. Margaret Sparrow she's very heavily involved in has been for decades in the legalize abortion movement. And she wrote a book couple of years ago on the history of abortion in New Zealand. And I spoke to her and women to quite a lot more detail. And about, you know, the way that I approached the the investigation of abortion, that was a crime. So that's what your list again. [00:31:23] You mentioned before about Carmen, and I'm just wondering, um, when did you first meet Carmen had to say [00:31:31] I was probably made or came across Carmen before I actually was transferred onto the vice squad just because I was at detective and Wellington and she was a forget, you know, someone to get to know I'm learning to the next sort of thing. So I don't actually remember that. But I do remember I may have related this anecdote to you before I do remember that when I got transferred from whatever squad I was on onto the vice squad. And my sidekick was a chatbot, the name of poor for terrorists. And he was on various tools I was so we were the sort of two shortest detectives in Wellington, why they did that on hack night. And it was common and many of her friends and associates were quite big people, you know, but that was okay. But the interesting thing was that they didn't take Carmen's associates to become aware that my first name Trevor, [00:32:27] was the same as Carmen's real first name. [00:32:30] Now, one thing I quickly learned on the vice squad was that you never ever addressed a transvestite transgender person, by their real name. You found out what the [00:32:44] pseudonym was, if you will, and that's how you address them because that's how they like to be used. So whenever I spoke to Cameron, it was Cameron. Never trim, never in a thought of calling in there. And she always called me to take the morning or to take the cyclists [00:32:59] terrorists. [00:33:00] And that was the way we conducted our business. And you know, and Paul for terrorists would would tell you if he was here that Cameron was one of the most pleasant people we ever had to deal with any advice squad days. But so here's the take of Trevor Morley walking into Carmen's international coffee bar and Vivian Street and this is not long after I'd been transferred on the vice squad and people began to know my name and within a few seconds of walking through that door into the haze and the fog and the fog and the coffee and the smoke and all that something you'd hear echoing through the coffee bear [00:33:35] tree [00:33:37] and of course Cameron wouldn't turn around and you know, look daggers at whoever she thought it said there because you just didn't call her by that name and find out other people and she would eventually work out who was calling out true and she go and she'd stand in front of them and white who big fat finger under the nose and saying How dare you and they would look at who was you know, mock solemnity on the face deep pain as I know darling I was talking to detective Morley [00:34:06] so if you will excuse the pun, I became the bat of some jokes amongst the transgender and friends of his community but it was all just part of their fun. But you know, that night that we arrested Carmen over but that that investigation I mentioned before with with I think I might have been Caronia, you know, she was placed on to deal with you know, no problems come with us common use, of course, you know, you'll bring Mr. De Stacy for me, will you but of course Gavin as soon as we get to the station and Roy would come down and you know, it just very pleasing to deal with. Yeah. [00:34:35] So it was like quite a regular thing that having a risk? [00:34:37] Oh, no, no, no. We arrested her on that occasion. There was another, I think we might have arrested it twice. [00:34:45] And I think it was after the second time that she decided it was time to go to Australia. So I think I could claim some responsibility for terminating her initial career in Wellington. [00:34:58] Now I say we wasted it time. There was a second occasion I think we're a [00:35:03] young policeman [00:35:04] went upstairs to the rooms above the coffee that the might have been a third occasion. I think if there was a third occasion she was acquitted, or the judge or the jury couldn't agree or what have you, but she could see the writing on the wall. The other thing is that it became extremely well known amongst the place and it makes the public alive. The Cameron was in effect running a brothel. Now the question was, if there's a vice squad, and the someone is popular in a public, is Carmen running a brothel? How come she ain't being arrested? [00:35:39] In because the answer is she's most probably not being arrested because she's paying off the police. So there was no way we were going to let that kind of rumor flourish. Because it's in the area of vice, that corruption can occur within police departments. And it's happened, you know, overseas. And in fact, the only just quickly digressing, the only time in my whole 17 year in the place over the years and the place that anyone ever came halfway to try to bribe me was when I was on the bicycle. And it was a bookmaker that we arrested running a book out of the house in Brooklyn, and we crash bang the front door, the Saturday afternoon. And as we ran down the hallway, he ran into the kitchen and picked up a briefcase and through the at the kitchen window. [00:36:26] So we had a young placement with us to give us a hand so he went outside and fear to through the bushes and found the briefcase bought it and opened the briefcase and it was chock a block with cash. You couldn't have got another Dolan openly. So this isn't what's f4 job. It's a nice for me to pay out on my winnings are my losers on tomorrow, Sunday or Monday before the banks open sides, [00:36:48] right. [00:36:50] So we got into the car to go back to the vice squad office to lock him up on heat, incidentally, had one previous conviction for bookmaking. And making was one of those very rare offenses, whereby for a second or subsequent conviction, you had to go to jail. And he didn't want to get a job. So we're driving back. And for some reason, Paul, for terrorists was driving, I was sitting in the back behind Paul, on the back seat between me and Joe, was the briefcase with the money. And we're driving down Broken Hill, right? And Joe sort of leaned over and sort of give a nod towards the the bag of money. And I said, Oh, yeah, what he said, the bonnet, you get the surgeon to slow down at the bottom of Brooklyn Hill, and I might just fall out of the car and leave my bag behind. Was it all it's not a bad idea, john, I said I co Coco was on the reviewer, I told you want to slide in on the bottom of the hill. He said, know what I want to do therefore. Well, Joe is just given us the nod on the briefcase here. Right now, I said here he thinks he might, you know, if you slow down and if you could fall out of the gap and leave the briefcase fine. [00:38:00] St. Paul, you know, all that sort of mock seriousness. He said, How much is in the briefcase? Was it how much is in the briefcase, Joe? Jason all to be a good 10 grand there. I said there's a good thing grand the whole point is looked at means he he is not enough is that that's how we deal with it. We could have charged him with attempted robbery but yeah, it just but yeah, let's do it. You know, and I'm quite certain if Paul had wanted to slow down, Joe would have jumped out because 10 Grand Slams building going to jail. me but only on it only ever happened on the record, which to me was pretty typical. That's where that's where the corruption come from. So that's another thing why we couldn't not prosecute Cameron. [00:38:43] You just could not let people carry on committing committing vice type offenses or they're doing something about it. [00:38:50] So with common was very much a kind of a cat and mouse type thing that I mean, you need the game, she knew the game. [00:38:57] A lot of a lot of a lot of crime was like that. I mean, we would go around some of the nightclubs and coffee bars late at night. And we would Paul and I would end up playing playing pool with some quite well known criminals me and equipment and other Kremen Bolden playing that, but there was always this sort of undercurrent, this undertone that [00:39:19] they knew we were the police. And they knew that if they were going to commit crime next day, and we caught them that we're going to get locked up this game of poor had nothing to do it. And we knew that we were the place and they were criminals. And if they were committing crime tomorrow and got away with it. Well, it was a good luck. There was there was this sort of gentleman's rule, shall we say the Queensbury rules of fighting crime? Nowadays, it's a lot different. I don't think those kinds of relationship exists anymore between the police and the criminal fraternity. [00:39:52] But yeah, and we would often meet up with, you know, with well known criminals, and you know, have a beer in a hotel with them and then carry on. [00:40:01] Just so that, you know, we knew they knew that we knew that they knew sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. [00:40:06] How did Carmen and the rest of the girls kind of feel about place? What did they do you guys? [00:40:14] If they did, [00:40:17] it's not that, I'm just trying to think if they did, they must have kept it to themselves. Because [00:40:25] I mean, usually the the, the interaction we had with them, I mean, we'd pass the pleasantries of the day or the night, but it wouldn't take very long. And then we might have to interview and we had some complaint or something or other. I mean, it was like when, when the message, the message palace first came in was just a euphemism for a brothel. You know, we would go around the not so much talk to the girls, but talk to the maid and the lady was running it. And again, it was just just to let them know that we knew what they were doing. And as long as they had nobody drugs on the place, as long as none of the customers got rolled or beaten, or had their wallets taken from them, then they'd be okay to carry on a business. It was a sort of a tacit understanding between the forces of law and the forces of water. And I mean, that's all been taken care of now with the with with the new [00:41:19] message partners echo something different anyway. But you know, Brian brothels and a legal? [00:41:24] And again, it's just another way that morality has within my short lifetime, gone sort of a full, you know, 360 degrees. Yeah. [00:41:32] You were also saying that part of your work was in decent publications was the much gay, lesbian, transgender and recent publications, [00:41:42] not a lot. Now I'm just trying to reflect on that. Most, I would think, [00:41:48] I would think that 95% possibly even higher, was your heterosexual pornography. In those days it was there's a site initially silent eight millimeter film. [00:42:05] Then Deep Throat came out. And we had a major investigation about that, because some guys imported a copy of it from America [00:42:14] made a negative copy of the film, which was on too big 16 mil real the soundtrack on the whole lot. And then the original went down to the Arctic for operation Deep Freeze. And these two guys who work here at the National Film Unit, we're going to make the millions by taking copies of the negative they've made and sell them. [00:42:36] So it was originally important in New Zealand to even shut down to Antarctica. [00:42:40] Well, not a word not well, it was originally taken out of a taken out of the Continental USA to go to the Antarctic on an operation Deep Freeze ship. And they always called into Wellington on the way and these two guys element National Film in the how they became aware of it, I don't know, but they did. And they were able to keep the film for long enough to make a copy of it. But just going back to your original question, so heterosexual pornography, [00:43:07] eight mil film then that came out on the 16 mil, then the In fact, we had so many Akmal reels of film that we got a little manually operate the film editor because we just didn't have the time to run the whole thing through and you put the reels on avoid them through and have a look at the picture of violence through again. We had to do that because one or two people got flavor and predicament vi Jesus came in, they would have the first few feet of the film, you know Walt Disney cafe and vain that would be the pornography. So But no, very very little of it from memory. Hardly any was was guy or except guy in terms of male on male, female or female totally different because that that hasn't seemed to have a particular interest for a lot of guys and females Of course. [00:44:01] And then magazines tons and tons of meat weekend but the satellite [00:44:07] imported from free out of Europe, that sort of thing. And we didn't [00:44:12] send them out to the big trailer that is shredder government had a shredder at [00:44:16] Miramar or something. [00:44:18] But now very very little gay pornography in those days very little. And now of course it's all pretty much legit unless it's really serious stuff. [00:44:27] Different story can you continue with that? sounds [00:44:29] fascinating. Oh, okay, let me just go back very quickly. Okay, these two guys employees, the National Film Unit [00:44:37] got hold of this copy of the update truck made a negative copy of it gave the original back to the sailor no Indian operation decrease. With this negative they surreptitiously over a period of time during the lunch hours and sneaking back at night made a original print of the negative one that you could actually view so they are in a little theater in the National Film Unit. neuroma one night watching this first print to see what it looked like. But the manager of the National Film had of course heard on the grapevine what was going on. He knew they were in the with the cup of the night so he burst in on them. Grab the two rolls of film able to predict the wind outside threw them in an incinerator Bentham went back in and sit near piss off because you both fired and he fired them on the spot. And some months went past and nothing happened. And he thought that he managed to quell the fire, so to speak. And then he kept the lid on this thing until one Friday afternoon, the director general of the tourist and publicity department which no longer exists, but didn't know and which controlled and rain the National Film in the day Jay is in the news office in town. He gets a call one after Friday afternoon from the editor of truth, who said Oh look, I want you to listen to what's going to be the headline front page of next week's truth on Tuesday. very wonderful Friday. Want you to comment on it? Is the dg Are you What's the headline going to be? The headline is government department Prince blue movies? Whoo, said the DJ, can I get back to you on that one? Hang up and ameliorating the question replace. Because he knew nothing other than that, but that was enough to give him the willies. So at that particular day, I will my Sergeant was away how's the office acting and sergeant in charge of the vice squad and I that young detective to just assist me. So we go over to the commissioner's office, get told him down to the director general tourism publicity. And he said, Look, I've just had the cycle. That's what it's all about. But go out to the national Friedman and talk to the general manager. So we Gareth the National Film and talk to the general manager next when he tells us this little backstory about him burning the film missing. So I said we better get on to this. So [00:46:57] one of the guys one of the offenders, grams, live the wrong way. So in case he still had a film or something only when got a search warrant for his house, when he knocked on his door, this would be near about eight o'clock on the Friday night said come on last night, we're going to have some meaningful dialogue in the vice squad office. So I realized that they've been caught, you see. So we can make the vice squad office and have a lengthy interview with him and he tells us the story. To go lay down on the statement. That's fine. So we take him downstairs to the White House and say right, you're staying need you're not going anyway. We've got to get and get you might get a search warrant for his house and go to Brooklyn and it's now getting till about I suppose or at least midnight one o'clock in the morning. And this was a fella called john his name will come to me john summer, knock on the door light goes on inside door opens in these Johnny's pajamas. And I say hello john. We haven't seen each other since the sixth form at Hastings Boys High School [00:47:51] DJ Jamie's often you see it on we're going to have some meaningful dolla, sir, we got an [00:47:56] interview him. And he [00:48:00] was this side of the story which agrees with his kind of a theme that [00:48:04] but what the manager of the National Film Unit didn't realize is that when he had the two reels of film out of the project that and burn them, he thought he was destroying [00:48:16] all the evidence. But the negative was still in existence. He's not in there. [00:48:22] But we found that out by interviewing these two guys in the early hours of the Saturday morning. So we went all winning, I remember going out to LA at one stage guy and we eventually located this negative copy to do realism negative in a suitcase and durability up normal way sound like? So we thought, okay, that's interesting. So we wanted to prosecute these two guys with printing and indecent document, which deep throat was in those days it was in DC. But the problem was the document they had printed, had been destroyed. So how are we going to prove that what they destroyed wasn't decent. [00:49:03] And the nice days, you had to get the things attacking and still on these days to get the prosecution under the indecent publication. And you had to get the Solicitor General's permission, so far goes off this list of junk. And he wrote back and said, Well, how are you going to prove that it wasn't decent because it's been destroyed. And then I suddenly thought, I know how we can do there. Got the two negative copies. We back out the National Film one at one morning, went into the general manager's office and said, Remember that headline that truth was going to publish? He said, Yep, government department makes blue movies. Yep. I said, Well, we're going to put that into practice. He said, What do you mean? I said, here's the negative make me a copy. He said, I can't do this. [00:49:44] And I did. And I followed this negative all through this process of making a copy. Because we knew from the evidence we could produce to the court that this was that one and only negative from which I don't even have been printed, which wasn't decent, but which had been destroyed. Therefore, this copy they are now making for me was identical. So I knew it was gonna be a fight. And so we had a case. And Roy Stacy defended one of these guys, and a judge Alyssa lawyer, who's now a judge of the High Court defended the other guy. [00:50:19] So of [00:50:20] course, we have the case and as a few preliminary witnesses and what have you. And then I stand in the witness box. And I've got these two rolls of film that they've made for me. And I can see Roy Stacy shaking his head like this. And I'm hardly got one minute exhibit, if you want to please hang on. Mr. Molly worries, it said there was this huge big argument as to whether or not we could produce this copy from the negative, which we were going to say is identical to the one that was destroyed. And there's big legal argument over big legal argument. And anyway, he The judge said, Well, before I accept this as an exhibit, I think I've been here longer, certainly took a look around the conference room as a police headquarters and showed the judge the film. And he eventually agreed that yes, on the basis of what we said to him, we could circumstantially prove that this was identical to the item that had been destroyed. And he convicted both of them. So that was a bit of an interesting landmark case, a bit like the case with Carmen, and the mile being a prostitute. And then he was a case, I think it's the only time it's ever occurred. And using the law, he was a case where people were convicted of printing in a decent document, that at the time of the conviction no longer existed. But as I say, you go down to your local corner video shop these days, and you can hire Deep Throat for $1 a night, you know, even even less. So this guy in this complete change in morality, just in a few short years. See, that would have been an investigation in the early 70s, I suppose 7273 83 [00:51:57] not, you know, not even 40 years later, complete reversal in the in the laws relating to indecency. So it's a bit like a bookshop fellow in them. And I know Don, he runs the book Haven and UTM someone discovered that he had a book in his warehouse called bloody Mama, this is just early this year, late last year, early this year, which had been declared in decent in 1962. [00:52:24] Yet it was still indecent, and he the indecent publications people came and took it off him and they they reviewed it and reclassified it as no longer indecent. Because once something's to clear them decent, it stays in decent. Yeah. [00:52:41] So that you've got decent publications in decent performance. Was that something Oh, [00:52:46] yeah, sure, and decent performance as we go on the strip clubs. And again, talking about changes and morality. We will go around the strip clubs. And in those days, the strip is used to keep the panties on for a member correctly. And in the early days, I might have a little pasty on the nipples. But I think by the time I left the vice squad those had been removed. Not because of anything specific. There was no law to say it's like when the follies busier used to come in here in the 1950s [00:53:21] some of the performers could appear naked, but they couldn't move [00:53:28] to stay in stock still. So they almost like a statue. And the spotlight would come on them and you'd see a naked lady standing there. And then the spotlight would fade in and go to another part of the stage and be another lady standing but they couldn't move. I mean it was it was almost as if by moving they were going to be in decent. Yeah, but that is long gone by the time I got another voice what so you have strippers at the purple onion and many public offices club exotic. [00:53:57] And the [00:53:58] other thing of course was a lot of the strippers Commons were mouth, you see, so [00:54:05] they could take off almost as much as they liked. Because they are nipples were not per se and decent because they remains nipples. [00:54:13] So it was the defining thing of indecent. So you've had a few short nipples. That was a that was not [00:54:18] well, not necessarily, but there's a say I seem to recall it. When I first went on the bicycle. Most of the strippers had little pasty they stuck over the nipples. Because for some reason there was thought to be okay, but by the time the transition came when they were no longer wearing pasties it wasn't because the Commissioner of placing yes you can take your bases off now. It was it was some sort of subliminal subtle kind of a sort of a [00:54:50] four way that when they got through society this you know, it's okay to do that now, most probably influenced from overseas, you know, people reading Playboy magazine and painters and that sort of thing. [00:55:01] But yes, we would monitor will monitor, call into the strip clubs and watch the girls stripping just to see what they were doing. And I remember one instance, there was a woman that many papered offices club exotic. And what did she do, she had a fever bauuer. Between between our legs, somehow Rather, he was doing almost like she had this giant penis and she was masturbating. And we thought, that's a bit too far that's that's getting into the realms of in a decent performance. So we prosecuted her and many in Gawker, they were convicted, no decent performance Some time later. And I can't think how long but it couldn't have been more than perhaps 18 months to two years later. Back at the club, exotic same performance with it, what are they doing? You know, they may have something, you know, get off the stage. As many Come on, right, you getting locked up. So we did went through the whole procedure again, but the judges or the major struggle medication said no, morality has changed in the last 18 months to two years, no longer and decent. So it was little decisions like that, that gradually chipped away. And I don't mean that in a negative way, or [00:56:16] permitted the bounds of indecency to explain so that things that were once thought and decent no longer work. I mean, you go to the strip clubs now and it's, you know, total nudity. Absolutely. So, I mean, again, these that change, you know, the things that happen, we're not allowed in a strip club for a long time. But [00:56:37] so things that happened in strip clubs, now some of the six clubs in Auckland just would not have happened in those days, they'd be straight into the clink. [00:56:47] When somebody was convicted of a non decency like that, how would it affect them? What would you know, kind of ruin the movie? Oh, [00:56:55] no, no, [00:56:56] in fact, I think to some extent, is almost perhaps a badge of honor. [00:57:01] It's sort of shown that they were sort of prepared to push the boundaries and that sort of thing. I mean, and that wouldn't prevent them getting work anywhere, you know? [00:57:12] Nothing like that at all. I mean, unless they suddenly wanted to go and work in the supermarket that I mean, they would, there's just a small group of people strippers, who would work you know, go between the night the various clubs, you'd find them dancing for many and then they'd be dancing for Pepsi across the road and it's all down with Cameron and up to Auckland, and you know, with rain, hasty and that sort of thing. So that makes makes that that cliche go over think that would almost be a badge of honor, so to speak. [00:57:42] On the other side of the coin, did you have anything to do with morals campaigner Patricia? [00:57:48] Well, I did to the extent that she was one of our major complainants but i can i can vividly remember going to see her out of the little reflect unit night and the she pulled this better than suitcase out from underneath the bed to show me this terrible terrible pornography the addictive but what it was was Playboy's penthouse, and Hilton nature magazines. You know, I don't know if Patricia had actually ever seen any real hardcore, cool pornography and the organization opposite the Society for the Promotion of community standards. That's right. [00:58:27] I mean, well, meaning hearts in the right place. But I think that like a lot of pressure groups in society, they were accorded far more influence than they really should have had. So yeah, I had some dealings with him, but not a lot. On the other thing we occasionally went to I mean, we went to a play at downstage Equis [00:58:54] that head near water began seeing some again, someone complained could well have been Patricia, one of the people, I think it was language and nudity. I think it was a new that the on the part of one of the female actresses. [00:59:06] So Paul, and I went and sit in the audience and watch this play and put an importance in, we can't see anything wrong with it. And that was it. So it was pretty much something like that was pretty much live to our judgment. You know, we could have said yours terrible, shocking, you know, naked, but but I think from the point of view of the nudity, I think it was because there was a nudity in a theater, as opposed to nudity in a strip club, where you would expect it. And I think this might have been one of the first plays [00:59:40] in a straight theater, genuine theater, involving nudity, particularly female might have even been mounted it I just forget now. nudity somewhere anyway, but from memory was nothing to, you know, to be bothered with. [00:59:54] So you were on the vice squad for how many? [00:59:58] I should have gone Roman, I've got all my notebooks out and had a look less than 77 and 77 hours on the cast squad. [01:00:07] When I lived, gone to Casper from the size 6543 I think at least a good six years. Why did you leave the place? Oh, it's time for change. I've been in the place for 17 years. And I just felt that it was time to you know, do something different? Yeah. [01:00:28] Do you have any reflections on on your time and the vice squad and what we've been talking about over the last hour? [01:00:33] Well, [01:00:36] it's you know, to me, it was just another aspect of police work. It'll be a very interesting I often see it. [01:00:44] I often say to this day, if they lift me on the vice squad, I'd still you know, be in the place. Because I just found it very interesting and fascinating work. The people that you met that sort of thing. [01:00:58] But the only reflections are you staying great people very interesting cases. I mean that deep throat case. case with Carmen, those sorts of cases. Were very interesting that you wouldn't get involved in other than being on the vice squad. And as long as you keep your nose clean and and you know rebuffed any attempts to corrupt you. Yeah, I could have still been I wouldn't have been married any longer. Because it was not. Well, what happened as I go to work about two o'clock of an afternoon, wife's at work, kids are at school, [01:01:31] go to work, [01:01:32] take some paperwork, make some phone calls. And in Poland, I would get in a car and go to town somewhere for a meal for dinner. And then we start going in clubs in the pubs and what have you. And most probably get home. If we start to work it to sometime close to midnight. [01:01:51] wife's asleep, get seriously. I get into bed. Six hours later, wife gets up. Kids get a wife goes to work. kids go to work. I wake up about 10 o'clock in the morning cancers empty. We live in the same house but not seeing each other. So certainly, while I mean a lot of not you're saying Vice Squad we can certainly not your same place with any shift where it can be very debilitating to relate to you know, good relationships. But now I enjoyed it. And as I say fascinating people and yeah

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