Torfrida and Ali profile

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by pride in z.com with dinner support from the rule foundation. [00:00:07] My name is Ellie water song. And I want to say something about my name water song because it's a name I chose. I chose that name in 1983. [00:00:21] And it was part of not wanting to continue on the patriarchal heritage of my father's line. And [00:00:30] I don't know how I actually chose the name it sort of came to me I think I might have written an American magazine you know, with Native American names in it and it was a name that was on the air. But [00:00:45] because my [00:00:47] the name that I'd grown up with was le Watkins [00:00:53] and my friends [00:00:56] in the Mavs and nearing communities to call me what he or something like that. I wanted to keep that initial WAT and water song just seemed to be the right name because I love water. And I'm I can't see you can't Syrian. So I'm a water sign. And I'm a musician and I sing. So what a song. In my mighty friends call me le YY. [00:01:23] And I've I grew up I was born in Christchurch, and grew up in Christchurch. [00:01:30] I lived it Matt cook for 19 years in the 1970s. So I don't know a lot about the crush rich guy. He's been seen LBJ LGBT scene in the 70s. [00:01:48] I [00:01:51] fell in love with a woman in 1979. And four, I just happened to fall in love with a woman and in. But later I fell in love with another woman. And so I thought interesting. And so then I started trying to explore in the lesbian scene in Christchurch, I'd moved back to Christchurch by the end, and would go to a woman's dances and the regular women's dances hit me in the 80s. I don't know how often they happen, but and I guess it was one of the few social things that happen. So you know, there were lots of women who would come along to them. To begin with, I would just go for about 10 minutes and then run away again. And then gradually I build up my confidence. The other thing that was happening in Christchurch, then that was on the social side was the lambda coffeehouse. And Thursday nights was lesbian night. And so I'd go along to Linda, in, try to meet some other lesbians and begin with, you know, I felt quite discouraged. Because, you know, the only people I would meet with people that the only thing we had in common was that we are lesbians. I didn't meet any other kindred spirits, really. So it took a while before I sort of found my, [00:03:20] I guess my people within the lesbian community. [00:03:25] What I remember about the 80s was the time of [00:03:33] once I got involved in the lesbian community, there was a time of [00:03:38] what [00:03:41] I was thinking about, you know, at least in summer camp, we hit a lot of we hit I think we were first lesbian summer camp was in 1984. And we had a camp at what per [00:03:56] every summer. And women from all over a New Zealand would come or, you know, lots from the south on a few from the Northland. And we ran those for I was on part of the organizing committee, and we ran most for about four or five years, five or six years, and had all sorts of workshops. They're all sorts of swimming in the river. [00:04:23] I mean, fantastic events, really. So that was a big part of [00:04:29] that was, you know, are so big part of the social year, I suppose. [00:04:36] There was a lot of [00:04:39] music. [00:04:40] I use, I was in as a no regulation bloomers, which was a group of four of us were a band, I was the only lesbian in the group at that stage. But then, after, after we split up, one of the others came as well. But we were together for 10 years. And we played at a lot of different [00:05:00] events that were, you know, had a social protest type of agenda, I suppose. So. [00:05:10] And we played women's music. So we played a lot of holly near songs, and Chris Williamson songs. And so [00:05:20] songs with a with a social message. I remember being very active in 1986, with homosexual law reform bill. And remember going on many matches in that time, and going to church services been told I love you, but not your eight. [00:05:39] And because that dreadful meeting, where did you come up with a meeting where we were surrounded by them? You know, we thought this is a crazy thing to do. What do we do? [00:06:01] So what about your time in Christchurch? [00:06:05] I came, I came to Christ about 978, I think, yeah, from Geneva, and I've been living with a guy down there. But I also gotten involved in women's refuge down there. And that's where I fit found. That's why I first fell in love with a woman. And with two lesbians in the evening, of course. [00:06:29] We didn't see any others anywhere, you know. [00:06:33] So I didn't I mean, she was also married with a whole string of little kids. So it was that didn't go anywhere. So. So then I came to Christchurch, and I still really hadn't come out. Because I was still expecting the boyfriend would come after me and he didn't end. And then I sort of had lots of affairs, lots of different people. But I'm gradually sort of aging myself more towards the women, you know, and that was really the women's dances. [00:07:00] I'm going to place where we met was at a woman's dance was it [00:07:04] is Imma Imma meeting you. I was Health Day. It was a year and there was a woman's sort of festival. And he was sitting there on the lawn at lilium in the art center exhibit guitar. We still had on hand that stage. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and she smiled. nice smile. Just remember that. [00:07:29] We should be friends listen to when we get a lovers. No, but we've always been voiceprints Yeah, [00:07:36] yeah. And towards a wonderful dancer in she brings out the dancer and me and we've we've danced together lots of but that's one of the things I remember. And that's why I thought it was [00:07:48] because I remember, as part of that women's festival, there was a dance. And I remember I've been upstairs in the [00:07:54] Union. The old University common room. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You had a long time scrutinise? [00:08:06] Because I remember I remember the woman's dances they were sort of quite sort of smoky. And, and as well, it was in the center, somewhere in a Pokemon room. And I'd come to the door. I knew I was over the moon was refugee stage because I come down to the crush each one and a couple of nights in that. And they said are you most comfortable as dances so that was that felt safe that they said I can go well, I've got Sunday, I'll get to the door. I think Where the hell are they? You know? And I look around I try and find them because I wouldn't be too scared to go in by myself. [00:08:37] Please come up. But I'm under the pressure on. [00:08:43] Like everybody was in shirts and dresses. Like the pressure on women do not be funny. Because very funny. [00:08:54] And Imogen Chen long when she came out. She's younger than us. But she had a long, long hair down why's that she tied in a flat and she refused to she came out she refused to cut it off. It's not the city want to cut it off, which didn't want to be pressured to cut it off. So she had to really fight you into the lesbian community if you really had to want to be there. And I'm like we did. It was kind of fighting time. thing. It's exciting. Yeah. To go here. But a lot Tashi force, spider. Yeah. And he had to fight to address as well, that was a big fight. And that was quite a quite a anti boy feeling. And the already was so many lesbians had four children. Watkins street light, we bought it in the video 80s, late 80s, I think about four of us bought a big bigger cast together collectively. And I think at that point, we noticed that all the folk who had children I think is only awesome, Allison, who didn't have boys, you know, like these radical lesbian, separatist feminist women who had boys, which is, [00:10:07] which was hard for them [00:10:10] with that feeling come from that? [00:10:13] Oh, it was because we were feminist as well as it wasn't just coming out to six identity, it was a release against the whole patriarchal society. [00:10:25] Yeah. Yeah. But it was very strong, you know, in the radicals. I mean, I never was, you know, secret, just radical secret asleep, BN, but a lot of my friends and peers were. And [00:10:41] so there was, you know, quite, it was quite a strong political [00:10:47] claiming, you know, putting your claim in the sense [00:10:52] that, you know, forming sort of lesbian, only community, [00:10:56] Lisbon nation, there's been a series of big women's gatherings in the 70s is about three things for them. And gradually, the lesbian separatists became a strong, stronger group within that. And it's like, secondly, separatism is like sort of wanting to really concentrate the ideas and do things completely differently. It's like there's a homeless signs, like, you know, I'm not a woman on this view, is devise a different way of being female. It's like news. I am woman giving birth to myself. There's a lot of feeling we want to do things differently. We want to we don't want to treat the world like men have treated. So it was it was very much of a lot you. I mean, [00:11:47] it was very idealistic. [00:11:50] You know, I mean, we, [00:11:53] but we learned a lot. [00:11:56] And we wouldn't have, you know, I mean, like, this is a years before LGBT community, but you know, those lesbians and gay men, and we would see ourselves as being totally separate gaming. Yeah. [00:12:12] was very much advancing until the civil rights to the civil year, that's when we first came to give him I think, [00:12:19] surface was around the homosexual. Yeah, [00:12:21] yeah. [00:12:24] So why was kind of lesbian energy put into something like behind sexual reform? Do you think [00:12:32] there was debate whether we should? It's like the marriage thing, it's like, who'd want to get married? [00:12:40] Marriage is a crap institution. [00:12:43] So it's kind of different. Same from today, you know, huh. And there was a lot of, there was a lot of other [00:12:50] other debates going on the married debate what was going on with fiercely debate that in the lesbian scenes, there's a lot of debate around environmental stuff, you No, one of those, it was hugely fundamentalist, was a little challenging of, you know, you're doing this and you're doing that, [00:13:08] which is good that a lot of lesbians were in, you know, anti racist. Yeah, movement, though, you know, they're often, you know, like radical and all your tip smola, environmental movement, sort of anti racist movement. So, [00:13:25] one of the one of the groups I got involved in the 80s was a piece called a woman specific. So we're very much doing things just with women, partly because of this, the strength that gave you and I don't know, we bought when we bought that big house together. And it was just a woman's house was in kids hands. And my brother came over from Australia hadn't seen for quite a few years, and with his new girlfriend, and so we wanted to stay there. And I had to say, Well, I'm sorry, you can come and have a cup of tea, but you can't stay here. And he was horrified that it's like, and sometimes it is, it's quite uncivil, in some ways, for me is a sort of timid, timid woman, it was very good to stand up to my big brother and say, Actually, no. So a lot of it was to do with strengthening ourselves, I think a lot of it was from things that was very useful to do. [00:14:16] With strengthening come from we, I mean, we did that kind of ground swell of energy come from, [00:14:23] it was it was an exhilarating time, I remember going to first women's conference when I was a little straight woman, little straight, young, 24 year old something. And it was in Wellington, it was very, very wet. And it's in scraping sort of show grand building, you know, and there's [00:14:38] thousands of women there. [00:14:41] And there was sitting around having exciting conversations about taboo subjects, like, like, periods and stuff like that, you know, it's like, and, and consciousness raising groups, like, how is it with you and your boyfriend, Mama, you know, blah, blah, blah, this is how whitelists have finally my high school, or I can't, you know, I can't get a decent job with it. What Why are these guys any more than me? So there's a lot of speaking, bitterness, and a lot of excitement. And a lot of let's do it differently. And in some ways, it's like, when you when you find you, I think that that's one of those things, I had a huge yearning. You know, like I had, I'd find it easy to relate to Boys to Men. But I never had such a yearning to be with a woman as I had. And so it's moving more and more and more towards that, to try and be one that that's what it was. And it's very exciting when you do. That's what you just want to maximize it, maximize it. Yeah, I think the Sorry, I'm going on this summer camps was so delicious, because they were a whole week is a delicate spot. And it really is half naked all the time. But it's like there's a stream and there's, there's only sort of half naked women or naked women and kids, such as sitting about, you know, it was mostly as a great feeling of security and comfort. [00:16:18] Yeah, perhaps, um, you know, something that might, you know, help to [00:16:24] give you an idea of what it was like is that for three years in a row, I went to the Michigan women's Music Festival. So 1989 1990 1991, and I worked on the festival for six weeks Sydney up the festival. And it's probably about 150 women who came on the land to set up the festival, and then at the end of the feast will take it down again. And the majority of those women release means and it was my first experience of being in a majority culture. [00:16:53] Yeah, [00:16:54] it was such a strengthening thing today. [00:16:59] Yeah, you know, I mean, there was some straight woman there as well. But, you know, we were the majority, it is such It was such an affirming thing, and it's such a strengthening thing. So I think that's a bit of an answer to your question is about, you know, like, in usual, society will bet being you know, you, you never read anything in the paper about, you know, lesbians, okay. I mean, you know, you never doesn't, there was no Marine, there was just a complete lack of marine, you know, so getting together and finding people who, who merge you, you know, hit some of the same life experiences, you know, and, you know, it's really important to me, it's really important for everyone in terms of our identity, you know, not just our sexual identity, it's important for every kid to learn their life, you know, what's, what, who they are to us, so you can form your own identity. And I think the thing that's a huge, I mean, I think that's, you know, that beat a nap, but a $6 not not nearly enough, Miranda, at least there are movies, sometimes there's a gay man, and he's being a couple or, you know, these things on TV, and, but back then there was very little marine in any, any media things were usually negative. So I think that strength of being with other lesbians, you know, just gave you that sense of identity. And it was a very strengthening thing. But I really have, you know, like, important for us, for me going to Michigan to the blues music festival, having that experience of being in a majority culture. And [00:18:40] you know, yeah, just had to put my notes here. [00:18:42] And, and I think the summer camps came out of that, because the two initiators [00:18:47] that's been came back from the green and women's camp, you know, which was continue and antinuclear sort of sit sit in protests that went on for months, or if not years in England, protesting sort of missiles in England, and they came back late. That was a very, that was camps. Yeah, that was actually you will camp it women, women were camping together, you know, and having a lot of fun. And so we had a few folk, well, especially Aspen, I think Allison, a couple of first time, and they were the ones who Sue Sue, who initiated the the woman's count women's campaign, and they said, let's do it here. And so that's, that's why we set up women's camps. And another thing, when we were organizing it feeling quite anxious about because it's been such another conflict within the community up to them. You know, we're not conflict, but like a lot of arguing, arguing about what's what's right, and what's wrong, and blah, blah, blah. And then how the hell are we going to manage it with all these women all in one little sophisticated way? Oh, my God, what have we done? You know, I said, based on your list, but in fact, it was lovely, because it was, we have workshops planned all the time, but it was so laid back. I've got some beautiful, beautiful photos of women sitting out in clumps, just talking, talking, talking, you know, which is lovely. And just lays in the bathroom. Yeah, yeah. So that's it built community. And that's what I felt like is solidified for me, ever since the thing that I've been working to was built, I think, yeah. [00:20:28] When you hit those gatherings where you had people coming from all over the country, did you have a sense that, like lesbians were different from from Christchurch? Wellington, I mean, with a different kind of energy source? [00:20:43] No. [00:20:45] I think we partly set them up. I remember once somebody got into the local town to get some milk or some extra milk, and they saw this woman walking along the, you know, hitching, Lyft suddenly stopped. And she was choosing. And [00:21:02] we took her along with us. [00:21:05] You know, it's like, yeah, [00:21:08] I didn't I didn't sense another was, [00:21:11] and I think, probably to the summer camp that would have been, it would have attracted, you know, same type [00:21:19] of woman who had similar values, I suppose. Yes. Because that's one of the things I learned in the 80s was about all the different communities that Yeah, you know, there's the sporting dikes, and I, you know, didn't know any of them. Yet, you know, they all played softball or cricket or something. And, you know, I remember going to a party once. I didn't have got to go there, but, [00:21:40] and there was a whole group of women I'd never seen before, [00:21:42] you know, oh, yeah, that's what I knew. [00:21:48] So, um, yes. So I guess, in answer the question with it was there much difference with the ones from say, Auckland and Wellington, I think the ones who are choose to come would probably know, be quite similar to the, you know, they would choose to come because they had similar values. [00:22:08] And they were quite traveling people. Like I think a lot of us had chat while I hadn't much but my life partner has, and they'd travel around Europe, England and America and and they were part of a whole wave of a wash of sort of lesbians who did that like especially from Germany, and here we got come through it often get an optical Yeah, that's right. And yeah, [00:22:32] so they'll often be German will in the summer camps. Lots of Americans. [00:22:36] Yeah. When you say in tactic woman, what do you mean, [00:22:39] so Well, the problem [00:22:43] or the house, when she she's excellent at likely friendship. So she's a great friendship network central center. And she has she got to know a lot of the women who went down to Antarctic so that became the stop off place for all them. And yeah, is quite a few dogs. And they're like em, and they go down and October and tactical in boot, Danny for the summer. And then they come back and figuring often they stay around and you know, in New Zealand for [00:23:15] two months. And a significant number of those women who go down to the weakening tactic rallies. And so brown ones place became the, you know, sort of, [00:23:26] we let [00:23:28] that come and you know, that will come and stay. And in, I'm a traveler, and one of my early lovers is now one of my closest friends. She She was the cousin of Roman more 80s Romans cousin. And she was lovers with one of these in tactic Wunderland. And then I'd meet him tactical and it came levels with one of them. And then there's just all this intermingling of we go traveling together, the whole lot of us have [00:23:54] been cheated trumping every year. [00:24:00] I was at the Summer Camp, and I wish I'd done it now I thought about putting a big piece of paper out. [00:24:08] And then to see the interrelationships, like, who slept with whose relationship with who [00:24:16] can talk about relationships and how, how fluid and so open them? [00:24:29] Well, I know for me in my 30s, so which is the 80s it's like, um, you know, I fell in love with a woman. And as I said, and in the bedroom, she was American, and it didn't last very long. Then I fell in love with another woman. [00:24:45] She's good at that 50th birthday. Hopefully, we hadn't talked about this. So is it realistic to say this about Ellie, and she's had lots of girlfriends. After [00:24:57] I started exploring my sexuality, and I suppose my I had lots of different lovers, because I was like, I was doing what I hadn't done fully in my teenage years. Yeah, so I was really [00:25:12] playing that out. Yeah. And so I had quite a number of, you know, sort of short term relationships. And in some [00:25:25] I know, you know, there might last for three months. [00:25:31] In some of those people, I'm still friends with this. Oh, yeah. I'm not, you know, I don't know how that works, you know? Yes. With with, with some of my ex lovers, we've been able to navigate the transition from being lovers to be been really good friends. And [00:25:51] yeah, and I remember when, when I first came out, like I was involved with the women's peace group, and then there was a group of us [00:26:01] I became part of a group that bought some land them on backs measure to make a woman's segment their [00:26:07] Hague five. [00:26:11] But I'm under that group, I'm in the net. Looking back, there was a period when I was had a crush on every single one of them. really did. And, and it's like, it's like you saying I replaying stuff. Because I think before that I had not liked women much. I felt much more comfortable with men. And I think I, if I had an identity, it would be as sort of some sort of gay men. But I never really took me seriously the main, the good nights that I meet with, you know, and then when I got found women, it's like, there was a whole process I went through and that time of, which is quite a life changing process, anyway, which was to do with being more accepting myself for more loving myself and more loving of my mother and reconciled with family stuff. And that went together with loving other women. And it's like, each of these women have an aspect I was loving, and I was taking into myself or becoming aware of in myself, and accepting I remember, one of them, for instance, being quite slow and heavy and sort of bovine. And I started really appreciating that [00:27:30] in a way that I would have just dismissed [00:27:34] it, it hits up before that. So I was going through quite a process. And that's where the dancing started, you know, [00:27:40] getting much more into your body into my body in our notions. Yeah. So it was quite a if you ever seen Michael parameters stuff, I remember seeing he's been with see his his life history that he did. And it was very much like dancing and coming out and coming yourself and was all wrapped together. You know, I really could identify with that. So for me, that's what that was. Yeah. So it's quite a profound thing, actually. [00:28:12] It's very interesting comment tonight about watching woman very much. [00:28:15] Yeah. I didn't want to take control. Oh, I think because I come from a family where my mom was a bit of a doormat. And I was a timid little doormat, you know. And I was starting to be listened to I was going through quite a change in my whole emotional self where I was taking on more responsibility at work. And yeah, remaining was I was really making myself. [00:28:44] And that wasn't just that was true. That was using all sorts of things like psychodrama and [00:28:52] 30 minutes. Yeah. [00:28:56] And it was also about it is I don't I actively, you know, disliked woman. But I, I sort of thought of myself as one of the boys, you know, it's been a tomboy. Yeah, I know, I was loving. When I lived at Matt Cooke. I was working for the National Park, working as a mountain in general. And there was two women on the staff of 13 or something. And, you know, yeah, I've always been strong and sort of able to do so called boy type things. So, you know, I, I thought of myself as one of the boys. And I even though I had a boyfriend, you know, and we lived together for quite a number of years. And he was like, my best mate. But it wasn't until I would have affairs with other mean, that are, you know, I have a so last full connection was so sort of like, you know, there's my boyfriend here, who's my best mate. And these other men that I feel attracted to? But it wasn't together. It was when I met my first woman. Yeah, I fell in love with Sue. It was like, these things came together. And I was swimming. Yeah. Sort of like the two came together. You know, yeah, I really liked her and respected her and thought she was fantastic. And I felt the sexual [00:30:11] passion. So um, yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:30:17] What does that first look like? [00:30:23] Me, one of the things that's really really strong for me is the first time I kissed Sue, and was like, I'm sorry, you were made. [00:30:37] Instead of this great big mouth with whiskers. It was just the softness in the skin was so soft. I just remember, you know, like a story. It's one of those just [00:30:47] absolute [00:30:48] sort of spiritual moments in my life really, the first time I kissed you know, my first woman's love of some something? [00:30:59] No, it was it was a feeling of like, coming home or something. just felt completely. Right. Didn't feel all the tool. felt right. Yeah. [00:31:10] And I and I think it's different for me, because I remember the first time I was in love with a woman we didn't do that much isn't the needless to leave with my boyfriend. And I see what struck me was how she could read my mind all the time. [00:31:27] Just doing what I would do with the guy, you know, instead of Iran watching, See, what was what was going on? [00:31:38] I think I didn't Yeah, I, I, I searched around actually, among the women to find what I was looking for. And I think it was only when I got with Marvin, you know, that, that I found it. And that was like it was because remember, when we first went to bed together. And it was like, [00:32:00] without electricity, it has to do with the [00:32:03] touching the center of the universe, you know, touching the, the energy that's inside, everything, we just couldn't keep our hands off each other. And I think she was she was very much dark. And I think I've, I've been very attracted to Butch dykes more than anyone's. And it took a long time to realize what I was looking for was somebody who sort of, you know, structure the world as with a couple of a guy, but you take a home, you get the clothes off, and she says gorgeous woman, you know? [00:32:42] Since she's just, she's a different shape. And you can make love to her, you know. [00:32:50] So that's, that's, that was my experience. She's just slightly different. Because I'm fairly new to [00:32:58] what about language? Because you're using words, YM? What kind of was that the kind of language that was being used in the 80s? [00:33:05] was what you said, Is it more [00:33:08] problematic? I think, [00:33:13] because it is anyway, in the 80s. It was Yeah. And there was quite a, there was a whole [00:33:20] controversy around taking on those roles, because they're just playing out the old heterosexual roles, right? Yeah. But actually, I don't know, I felt [00:33:35] nice. I didn't offend up until I was with women, you see. [00:33:39] And then we would really, really sort of get into the pregnancy thought we can always ball it's really some wonderful dancing together. She's a natural dancer. Right? And [00:33:48] she'll be in a tuxedo and you'll be new lovely. Yeah, yeah. Like, [00:33:52] like Ginger Rogers, you know, the high heels and a very tight dress. And it was gorgeous. I loved it. [00:34:00] Yeah, cuz I never did that with the guys at all. I don't want to, you know, [00:34:06] because I think I think in the very positive days of the 50s and 60s, the Butch Finn thing was quite strong. Yeah. That was dealing with the feminism in certain tables. It was sort of like, what two seater that not wanting to ape as heterosexual rooms, rather than seeing that it's actually, you know, part of lesbian culture. So, you know, [00:34:32] because it was a difference that there was, it was certain phases in the lesbian world, and there was those, I remember going to an evening one swear, there were a lot of women who were actually positive, but they weren't sort of on the street sort of protest, he sort of dikes like us, you know, they were quite, they sort of stayed at home, and they were quiet. And they were more role playing. They're also much more closed down. So that was one scene and the, and the whole bunch of them the old, traditional big fan thing. I mean, there was good reason to rebel against it, because it's like, some of those women didn't behave like guys in this in the bad sense. You know, they did boss people around to that says, a lot of conflict around that, to around what is masculinity? What is femininity? What is Butch and femme? You know, what is an emperor, the lesbian conference that was done, we had it in Wellington, and they were not early 90s at the moment, too. And I know that at dikes in a room, debating the question of whether you should what's the pros and cons of allowing somebody who's transgender to come to the woman's center, or somewhere like that, to a lesbian, only gathering? It was amazing, because this whole group of 80 women were thrashing out the pros and cons of each of it. And, and some one woman saying, Look, I'm taking testosterone the moment, what am I? You know, and it's some young ones, and we were about in our 40s 50s, by then, but there's some young ones 20s they're saying, No, we want lesbian only space, you want one born of women space, because we have nowhere else. And I mean, there was always different kind of way from it. Because at that stage, we went at each other's throats so much we've got the more sophistication. [00:36:34] Well, it's still it's great. I mean, it's still a big issue. The Michigan women's Music Festival, you know, the policy is to have only women born women. And come to the festival. You know, so there's completely women more women in space? [00:36:53] Yeah. [00:36:54] Yeah. Yeah. So that's still an issue. [00:36:59] Yeah, what up? lesbian community? [00:37:03] What is the difference between a group of women discussing something and a mixed group or a group of men other different energies going on? it? [00:37:14] Probably would be it's also a difference in time. I mean, I might have a different response now. [00:37:21] You know, it's like we It was about time probably. [00:37:26] And the, the, because I become aware that his like, mine, le history is different from the history of when, say these 20 now and growing up or who's, you know, the this cohorts of us that have gone through certain experience? Yeah, so, and societies change. So how people see face and lesbians has changed a lot. I mean, I was handing out stickers that the Guy Fawkes for the Green Party thing, and we've got ones that say, only date girls, blind date for his own date, people who I agree. So I was heading out to these, these what some stickers to these 14 year olds, and this stupid little 14 year old said, and it goes one. Yeah, it's like, it wasn't an issue. Yeah, it wasn't a major issue. It's like, Wow, that's so nice. I have no idea whether she's what, you know, this or that, or the other. And it probably doesn't matter. You know, it's like she's sloppy. And she's in control of yourself and in charge yourself. And yeah, it's nice. So it's quite a different scene. Now. [00:38:29] You're wishing about a group of, you know, sort of 18 women, YE lesbians discussing something? And how would it be different to a group of, you know, next men and women discussing something? I mean, and maybe Back then, I mean, they became part of the perception would be that would that mean would dominate more? Or they wouldn't listen so much, you know, women wouldn't know. So that's part of the thing of doing women only thing. [00:39:02] And one reason for doing dichotomy things as opposed to mix when [00:39:11] you win wins hitch sexual more toward me slightly got a guy in their head already. Still, it's like, you're thinking we're talking about what would the what my boyfriend think that he's saying this. And that's who they refer, you can actually tell that that's who they're referring to. That's really talking to manly, he's standing next up next to you, and they're talking to you. So it's like, they're not fully there. And that was one that was one craving that we have to be around listening only spices is to be around from this way is to sing this like to do it differently. To get the most out of your head. You know, what would we do? We have been up in Canada hit in the demands. Yeah. [00:39:55] Haven't she been so wrapped in her own community? I haven't even thought about. [00:40:06] It's interesting when it came together for a homosexual law firm. How was that on the in the country region? [00:40:14] first time I'd ever done any working, or I didn't do much, I just went along. [00:40:17] I didn't, I didn't, you know, go to any of the meeting. You know, like, you know, that kind of planning meetings, but I'd go along to the party side, so. [00:40:29] And a lot of, you know, a lot of lesbians who, you know, were pretty radical secret, just please be [00:40:37] with we're would, you know, we're really willing to put the energy into fighting for this. I think it was sort of like [00:40:45] seen as what the guys need here. Because there was a criminalize here. Great. So it was like working with. [00:40:52] Yeah, yeah. And maybe it was like, Well, you know, if, you know, even though it's not criminal for women to be sexual with other women, it could very easily be you know, yeah. Yeah. [00:41:09] And I've had I've started to have more contact with gay men because one of the my partner Morgan, she was living down in South Canterbury, and it was such a tiny place down there. She She in the guy goes down there got to get him as a surf camp began as being good. So I've met gay guys there. And that was known as fascinating because we'd have parties and evenings and I've never been around men joking about sex before. [00:41:36] He's really rude jokes about six is totally not offensive, you know? [00:41:42] So nice. [00:41:44] Yeah, that was that was was was what shifted for me? Yeah. [00:41:50] So how could you be in the mid 80s? And mechanically regional in terms of like, I mean, could you walk down the street holding hands could dumbing you down discriminated against me anyway? [00:42:05] I don't think so. [00:42:09] Occasionally, if you were here, too short, you get mistaken for Boy, you know, sort of 14 [00:42:17] can be quite interesting. But when it wasn't a major thing. [00:42:23] In the early 90s, I, I bought a small holding my partner and went to that new country. And slightly, slightly later, but and when we were looking for it, I never came across pitches from the real estate agents. What in what we need to do, though, is to say my partner and I, she, blah, blah, blah. So they didn't put their foot in it and say, your husband before they had? You know, it's like they didn't want to be you tried to avoid those sort of things. But nobody was offensive in that sense. Hmm. Hi, contractor, he come in and cut the hay several times. He still sent the bill to Mr. Mr. 7000. Somewhere he know he coming from lots of capacity. [00:43:19] But I didn't experience any prejudice at all. Actually, in that sense. [00:43:25] It's more, what was interesting at work is, though, they'd be very accepting of me having a female partner, but what they would find alien was that I was part of a community that had no idea I was part of a team that meant difference to how I saw things. [00:43:42] Yeah, and I didn't think I mean, it's interesting, because I, just yesterday, the day before I went to my school reunion, 50 years on. So 50 years old, from when we were in the suit form, and they're just about how many women with the so this is, you know, we'll have that class as 100 as well. And most of them have got, you know, husbands partners and children. And, you know, three or four him and I didn't spot any other guys. Yeah. But [00:44:19] yeah, um, you know, like someone [00:44:24] said, about, [00:44:26] asked me something about, you know, my partner and said, Hey, and I said, she, you know, so, you know, there's sort of that assumption story. Yeah. [00:44:37] But But something else, one place where I've been very involved in psychodrama and, [00:44:45] and I started in the mid 80s, doing psychodrama and I started going to psychodrama workshops. [00:44:54] And I remember at one point [00:44:58] on a Mexican drama workshop, me saying something about being a lesbian in this other person who was in a training capacity said or what do you have to use a label like it? And, and I sort of did my best to kind of say what was important to me, this is my identity. But one of the things that was really important for us in the 80s was psychodramas and Wellington k Rosalynn came down and rain, lesbian only psychodrama and better game was a really strengthening thing for me. So we have Lisbon only psychodrama and do a lot of experience with psychodrama. And then I could go to training workshops, which are mixed, and [00:45:47] sort of feel supported by my soul lesbian psychodrama community. And k in her partner in it done a lot of weeks workshops with, [00:45:58] you know, the, the sort of the mine trainers from Australia, New Zealand. And [00:46:05] and it really sort of forged the way for [00:46:09] lesbians and psychodrama and so in the psychodrama community, there's actually a really high percentage of lesbians, you know, I go to a psychodrama workshop and there's, you know, at least a food usually just pretty amazing, really, in, you know, few gaming, but not many gaming. So, I think that was a really great thing to have. That was the strength of having lesbian, only things happening, which, for me, gave me that strength to go into the straight community. And yeah, [00:46:45] can you just describe what psychodrama was? [00:46:50] What's the drama of the psyche, the theater of internal world. And it's a method whereby we do things in action, experientially, and choose people objects to represent different aspects of your inner world. And it's used in therapeutic in a therapeutic way. And it's also used in organizational development, let's use an education as well. But at [00:47:22] instead of just talking about stuff, [00:47:25] you know, like, all the things I've been talking about, I could, you know, seek things out, you know, so it's a visual method as well, you know, that's an experience will be certain. And because of that were working, it [00:47:39] says people get much more conscious of some of the things, you know, that are more that are more unconscious, I guess, because we. [00:47:49] And the whole purpose of it is to, to develop new roles that are more adequate to the situation, you're in [00:47:57] development, the spontaneity and creativity [00:48:02] demonstrate. [00:48:09] Here's a good question. I'm just wondering, what do you think it's easier now, for somebody coming out? I mean, in your kind of counseling role, do you think it's easier for somebody to come out now? Or the 2030 years ago? [00:48:24] I think theoretically, there's that I think, each person, you know, I think, like, I'm just thinking about a client I saw last year who was coming out, and she was really struggling with it, you know, in, you know, struggling to find other lesbians and I gave her some clues about places to go. And, [00:48:48] and she was really scared of his, you know, family and friends judging youth. So I think that. [00:48:57] Yeah, so it probably depends on the person that depends on the community and what your family's like, you know? [00:49:10] Yeah. So theoretically, I think it should be easier. Because, you know, there's a lot more marine in the media, and [00:49:20] it's not such a big thing. There's lots of celebrities who are gay, you know, sort of, [00:49:27] but I think individually, people still struggle with that. And, [00:49:34] you [00:49:36] know, many images of Butch women, actually, you know, like, when you think of a TV lesbians on TV, no, pretty funny. And lipstick, lipstick, it is women's, you know, so for watch young watch coming out, there's not much. Not much if you you know, if you don't look a bit funny. What do you think? [00:49:58] I think it's still I think it's the idea of women not looking pretty not looking. [00:50:06] You know, looking strong and, and masculine is not okay. Threatening. Yeah. Yeah, another straight guys still are challenged by the idea is a woman, not the book. [00:50:25] not bothered by anyone's, they bought the believers. Yeah, and as long as my stuff is, like a challenge, they want to attack me, you know, [00:50:34] and I think it's probably the same, you know, like, for gaming, you know, it's a particularly feminine, you [00:50:43] know, the thing that, you know, it's been easier. But you know, but I think, you know, [00:50:52] you know, if a game is, you know, not particularly self came a new way of dressing and the way of being, they'll be more accepted, [00:51:02] you know, funds, you can part because it's a fear of different Yeah, no, and. [00:51:10] And it's still, like, some is easier and harder, because it's like, there's so much more overt acceptance in one level. But there's also, like, when we came out, we came by, so we fought our way into a community, and once you're in the US, or in the, you know, and you and so there's more validating of you, whereas there's nowhere for those young folk to fight their way into is like things to cross anymore. So where do they go? So it isn't more groping around. And you're lucky if you find Yeah, and the problem is easier, in some ways, the harder [00:51:49] and I don't really know that many young lesbians, spice [00:51:56] how big a part of your life is. lyst been awesome. [00:52:03] It's, I'm not so involved in civic duty things as I was because it doesn't feel like as much of a community with other dances and was socializing so much. And I'm more involved in things like the Green Party and stuff like that. And the dancers imply that we both involved in playback theatre and that was mixed. So over the years, I've gotten more involved in mixed things. Hmm. But it feels like it's when I think about something that housing you know, and I've got a house that might be flood prone now, so I think I might lose have my acting in it, you know, possibly in the future was just felt like the White House, I'd be in the rest of our lives to sing what. But then I thought, well, if if it happens, I could buy a [00:53:00] campervan and or [00:53:04] have struck an hour ago Park up like it. When I thought about the people I've talked with my friends I've actually seen. [00:53:12] And we've talked in the past that I'm an old duck trust. [00:53:17] Some places like Piper Greek is a bunch of old diapers, you know? And, you know, attackers, probably another one. Yeah. And it feels like BN. It's because of these links, which are from my, in the past, on my team, not that much content, but it feels is still strong enough to be able to say, Can I come live here for six months? Can I come live with you? Full stop. back, I have a friend on the west coast. I have a friend on the west coast where I went to work over there six years ago, and the one of the typical managers and where I was working, was a woman Hanson. She's a person she's got 19. And she's a professionally trained, and I didn't even recognize her until she came and said, Would you like to, you know, come up to this. And so and maybe say the microphone, that's a bit sort of forward, you know, they will recognize this young woman for it was 19, it was in the script here. And so I got really close with her and her partner. So after all these years, they feel like family because I stayed while I was on the coast, back and forth. And so her partner and I feel quite strongly linked to, even though and it's partly because that long, long standing connection. So she's somebody I forgot to say. So in some ways, it's in some ways it's attenuated. You know, it's, it's funny. Yeah. [00:54:48] And I, and I'm the same I'm not so involved in in, you know, lesbian activities. [00:54:58] That [00:55:00] you know, my partner lives in Wellington, and I got the she comes down here. And [00:55:09] I know it's it's sort of a core of me, but I'm involved in like my main you know, community now as my psychodrama community note and [00:55:23] it comes in sometimes it comes out in things like funerals, and when we go to a funeral, never know rains funeral. And that is an old, older died. And she should be very strong woman spirituality movement. So she had really clear instructions about what she she got the women's women's mysteries group to come and do it for, you know, which is a mixed heterosexual group. But they're very good at what they do, and hitting this big hole. And it felt like a really lovely celebration of a lesbian life. And I think that's important for all of us, you know, that we do these ceremonies really well. So those things I suppose as we get older, it's the best movie ever smell that come up? Some marriages, I guess, but mostly is death. So I guess she knows. But it's like really important that they're done well. And that's an affirming. And hopefully, that'll be something somebody [00:56:23] mentioned just before about your house and possibly prior to finding out was that because of the earthquakes? Yeah. How was it for you guys for the the earthquakes in 2010 and 2011. [00:56:37] If I was my house and get much damage, it all says little tiny cottage [00:56:46] on this engines. [00:56:48] And it was just an amazing experience live through basically. And I and I was on the coast, time on the west coast. And I live with my brother, my older brothers come to live with me. So it was a matter of making sure he was safe. And only in our streets, that a couple of diversity in their street, who became like cat Mother of you know, he really did, because it's very, very community focused. So and there's also met, he's a guy guy has done bottom strip now. So it feels like there's a strong gay and lesbian community around there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I wasn't very badly affected, I was lucky not to be badly affected in any sort of way really. Apart from this, you know. And so in some ways, I could appreciate the earthquakes for the positive stuff. Which is a lot of stuff. I mean, it's the I feel so much close to the earth quite literally, you know, but you you feel it moving around, you notice how it changes I, I look around the dogs a lot and I just see how everything is shifting and changing and you can literally feel it sometimes it sort of comes while you're walking around and frightening my house. [00:58:08] And the other thing is the difference in [00:58:13] the in how people are then much less. A lot of people talk about been listened to listen to some of two things. We have we have garage sales, we've been following, we might make hundreds hundreds and hundreds of dollars in Gareth sales because people just giving stuff away. And they come back and sort of random other stuff. And then they put it there much more casual that stuffing. And yeah, so that's that sense in the sense of the new Brighton, which has been quite a knockdown community. So there's also I think, now a feeling of weariness, and cynicism and despair in the community. I think that's, that's starting to take hold. Now. I'm stopped experienced that because I think people say my arm, which is this whole area is under threat of flooding and desolation. [00:59:12] And that's in the next 1030 years, probably, who knows what will happen to my one daughter completely. [00:59:20] And I live a little tongue and I was here for the September quite, but for the February when I was actually camping up and talk to Emily. So I wasn't here for that [00:59:31] little some sort of [00:59:38] did an amazing sort of thing in terms of community getting looking after each other, like I'm a member of the time they are and the time main coordinator at that time, organize the basically did the Civil Defense stuff, and then organized, you know, people to check on old people would organize just organized everything. And I found out, you know, once I could get into to be able to email I stayed away for an extra week because they said don't come back because it's not with with that I found somebody who I could they, they help me find someone who would go and feed my cat and feed my chicks. And, you know, sort of check up on things. And when I came back, there was a whole lot of community involvement things and I got a bit of involved in some of those things like, you know, making hats sitting down on the street corner sewing hats for people, you know, and that came along and we get them involved in making a hat and you have a bit of a chat about how they have Swaziland, but personally, I was I mean, I live in a little wooden cottage in a just built on rock and it just flicks with quake and you know, I've been very lucky I've got some very minor cosmetic damage that maybe they'll fix in 2016 or something [01:01:02] knows that [01:01:06] and it community field and Littleton is still very strongly then together. [01:01:12] I think I think he I found that in Brighton new to the pharmacist had to give up because the shop got damaged. And they had a huge, great farewell for him, you know, and things like that. It's you do you feel the strength of the community. So it isn't quite magical things. [01:01:34] I remember going to a performance of Beth inlet itself medicine, and it's in the main stage. On the main street, they're headed in a tissue, you know, one of the broken down was the vocal No. Yeah. No. [01:01:49] No, because that was demolished and his definition [01:01:51] side. So they played it outside the head, the audience under top all of this sort of thing, and had great big raises to keep going a warm, and the actors playing out in this sort of demolition area, this amazing rising up from tours of Mars and things like that. [01:02:12] So a lot of interesting things have happened. [01:02:15] And I mean, generally in Christchurch, a lot of you know really creative things have happened like the get following the green rebels things that, you know, the organized the pellet pavilion where they have concerts and fear markets and things and they have, you know, a dance I met where you can go and take your own music and plug it in. And [01:02:35] there's all sorts of, you know, great initiatives to kind of [01:02:39] keep having some life. And in the city, and in some of those get full of things of having a lot of fun as well. So we've got a sort of a square area that is actually going now going to be in the, you know, in the plan is will be sort of Central Square, but, you know, way before, you know, council or anyone got to thinking that even thinking about it, get fuller was creating, you know, seeking places and little garden and a little stage area and just in a patrol court. And it's really gathering place people, you know, go down the [01:03:18] chain. [01:03:21] We will put Okay, yeah. [01:03:24] Free food at Chico's people in Oakland that donated [01:03:33] because it was a huge thing was no way people can give it to me. [01:03:39] Here, and as it I was on the coast, I was there for two Saturdays after that Tuesday, one in February. And it was because my brothers probably had to stay there for the week. And partly, my brother said you can't get back into new Brighton anyway. So he visits daily. It was his awful feeling of not being at home. So wanting to be home. Is everybody said wanting to hang out together, you know, yeah. And I want to call, I've got a couple of dogs and they sleep in the bedroom now because they all talk together. Yeah, but but there's some magical times because I live near the history and when the power went off for like two weeks, and apparently just recently because a swan flew into the temporary oval over his parents went to Africa. And I walked down the end of the road in the dark, you know, and looked at over the city. You know, the darkness. And it's magical, actually. And that was magical in the in the earthquake time. So like a whole week or two of no power is like it really puts you right down to the local. There's no internet, there's no it is fine. But there's nothing This is News on the radio transistor radio because there's nothing Mills. So you you're very local, very, very, very local. And I love the feeling of everything. Whole grain machine having ground for hope. [01:05:13] So how do you see? I mean, throughout your you've got such a positive way of looking at it may be quite hard circumstances how we does that come from? How do you? How do you For instance, if you've lost power for two weeks, how do you see the positive? We did we did that come from? [01:05:40] I think it's partly because I didn't have any the horrors a lot of people had Yeah, I didn't decide to suddenly there's nothing there. No, I didn't have like my friends on a concrete pad that broke. And they could hear it Hello underneath. It's like there's nothing horrible like that happened to me at all. So that's gives me Yeah, and I was meant to be positive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, [01:06:06] men me the same, you know, like, because I haven't experienced, you know, really awful things happening. [01:06:15] You know, I can be positive but I know you know, all the people who've you know, lost their house or know [01:06:23] your friend we just look affection sort of this fire through, right through a house. [01:06:30] And who's who's still waiting. The insurance company [01:06:36] originally said it was a revolt and now since are appear, and it's like, you know, hacking your appear this, you know, this is it made this really, so, you know, she's got a battle here. But, you know, that probably won't be sorted for another year or two. You know, so I don't know, you know, in of course, you know, I've got, you know, friends, we lost someone in the CTV bowl been [01:07:03] in, and a couple of people I know, who were in the CTV building on the sixth floor and, you know, [01:07:13] collapse pancake down, and then they walk out, but, you know, they're there. You know, like, I was with Marty over and over last weekend, and something happened, you know, in DC, she's still got that, you know, sort of Hyperloop response to two things. So, I mean, I think it's easy. It's easy for me, because I haven't experienced anything, you know, really had and my house is fine. You know, it's livable. You know, it's a few cracks here and there. And, but, you know, [01:07:45] some other thing people say, is like, like we, all through that year, we were aware, but we kept thinking about the people in the city legally. And that the horror of it, you know, it just was really I think it's that, you know, where there were people trapped and died. After a while. It was just so horrifying. And like, just about everybody would say, Well, I haven't had it's got a son, because they're the people who thinking about it every time you think it's, it's like, oh, my God, what a hora. And it's interesting how the newspaper, like it is like an award. They didn't talk about that for about two about a year afterwards. And then they did the, you know, the the picture of all the young students of that that class, English language class that got killed, and the tragedy of that men talking to his wife, you know, until she dies, and this and this and this story, like all the individual stories, that the paper was so good in not actually putting those in till at least a year afterwards, when you could hear it here in Juneau. So, along the time, we didn't even know it was as bad as it was. So quite a bit later. And that was really good. I think. And in the meantime, we we got so active around [01:09:11] setting up compost toilets, and then a number of workshops on campus. [01:09:15] Suddenly, the hallway green, you know, it's like, there were no backup was toys. Finally, the world is listening to see no [01:09:24] need to know why you need to visit in your garden, you know, blah, blah, blah. So a lot of that stuff is suddenly become material for people. And there's a lot of pleasure in [01:09:38] being practical that stuff. Yeah. So that's where some of the positivity is, it's a very mixed bag. [01:09:49] looking towards the future, you're saying that that possibly the equity in your home might have reduced? What does that mean, in terms of aging in terms of retirement begins and looking after yourself and life to live? [01:10:05] it? Well, it undercuts that's, I mean, that's the main, that's the main [01:10:13] home that I've had from the quake, I think is the loss of that certainty or, or success security, I think, and it. But it's like, it's, it's something that's happening for a whole lot of people who have friends in this exactly same position who don't even know if they're going to get a rebuild or repair, they probably have to, after a couple of friends like that, at least. And they also might have to sell off, and they might have to go and have somewhere where they can afford to live. So [01:10:47] it's [01:10:50] it makes you think about the fragility of everyday life in some ways, but it's interesting, because I'm, I'm thinking a lot about climate change. And that sort of stuff. And so in some ways, it's it's like, it's, it's part of this has happened already now. And we've come through, we know what it's like to build accomplice to it, we know where to get award for we know, we can rely on the people down the road, to put their taps from their wells out on the street and get them get water. So we've tried it out, it works like it's not the end of the world. So it's like in some ways. [01:11:32] In some ways, it feels like we're living in a slightly different world. [01:11:37] And it just makes me so interested to think what will happen in the future as possible, I think likely the cloud catastrophes will start happening, and we'll get client refugees, a lot of things will get a lot more difficult. And I feel both closer to that and more able to maybe cut with it or having more feeling of relax, let go. And trust it, someone asked me if I'm older. You know, I don't feel I can do my own little arc and set away somewhere, there's no way to sail and the ox got no got to be healthy. You know, [01:12:17] I worry a bit about getting older. And my partner and I, Ronnie, we talked about, you know, sort of retiring together, but she's not going to retire for quite a few years. She's weeks Ministry of Health, and she'll be there for a while he's if she [01:12:35] mentioned. [01:12:39] So I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night and think what am I going to do when I'm when I'm feeling you know, the middle of the night? [01:12:49] Because my head my property is quite hard to manage? Because it's on a hill in a valley. And you know, it's sort of this quite a lot of work involved. And I don't manage to do you have university? So yeah, so you know, sometimes worry about getting older. And, and, you know, think about, you know, that I'd like to live community live, you know, but hadn't done anything to organize anything like that, like I know, in, in Auckland, there's the elder village is a group involved. And I think my friend of ours, who just moved to Wellington recently from Oakland, I think she's involved in that. And I mean, I think that quite actively, you're organizing something for the they were talking, but I haven't done anything to do. And I think I should but I haven't, you know, kind of got myself organized to thinking about it through. Yeah, yeah, so I have this, I have this kind of fantasy about how I'd like to live communally. And I have looked community before. Before I was kind of as a lesbian, I looked at the community, Mike's community on the outskirts of Christ you to really enjoy that time, that thing of sharing resources, sharing things. And now I live on my own and I think hands has had come about so [01:14:20] is it you know, like, so, you know, there's a fantasy about I'd like to live like that. But I haven't kind of got I haven't got the bridge sheet. [01:14:31] With our Will we ever get that bridge, but I [01:14:35] think that's an unknown from the Eskimos, you know, and at times, in the middle of the night a bit of fear. And in [01:14:45] I think one thing I found is I've gotten much more tolerant to a live live than I used to be, you know, used to be very much like, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do this, I'm gonna I'm going to do this and, you know, not be bound in by anybody was got, I guess, as you get older, it's lovely, because you get more sure of yourself. And you don't. And I guess that whole definition of being a diet with so important to sort of shut my door to you know, shut my house, my brother here is living with me now, you know, [01:15:15] it doesn't matter. This is fine. It's I know who having a, nobody can shake that. [01:15:21] So I like the idea of living with other people when I would if he wasn't there, I'd be living someone else there as well. But I juggle around, like my eyesight, city writing, and I need to be in a city but I think crush it will be underwater in 10 years time. [01:15:42] But if I go out to the country now, I caught up in a couple of years won't be able to drive in and out so [01:15:50] and then that's when the house bus seemed like a really good idea. If I can't try it myself, I'll get someone else to drive it for me. Yeah. [01:16:04] Do you think there are different issues with aging? For you know, a straight person to be no rainbow? [01:16:14] I think I think there's a cobalt thing because I'm not sure how it is for? Or how about a friggin policeman looking now, in another 40 years time? I don't I think [01:16:28] I feel like I have. As I said I have this like community community [01:16:36] sort of sense of community that is built up from people I've known all that time. [01:16:43] which gives me a feeling of security maybe. [01:16:47] Which may be straight folk, I don't see them sometimes in that community. But sometimes I see them having that like, say if they're in the green movement, or some Christian movement or some other similar type of movement with a gun. Intense good sense of each other. Yeah. So it really depends on where people are coming from, I think, [01:17:09] well, I don't I don't have any family. [01:17:14] Well, I have one brother who [01:17:15] sort of [01:17:16] know, we've got quite a distant relationship. [01:17:22] I see straight people that they have that sort of family baking, but then like, tour, I know I have my, you know, my lesbian community, you know, my friends, who are my family. So. [01:17:42] So I would trust that, you know, like, you know, when I die, they would [01:17:48] make sure that I had a really good funeral. [01:17:58] Yeah, [01:18:00] this was the other thing I've noticed is as I get older, like I'm 63 now, and I really identify with older people, I've really actually enjoyed it, especially in the green room, but other places as well. I've gotten to know, men in the 70s. And I experienced men now it's like being like tundra, you know, like oak trees and protective. And you know, what I never used to analogy. And it's lovely. It's a lovely feeling. And the ones that the guys are respect and strong. And I'm really aware of older people, especially ones older than me and 75 and so on. having that experience, and that's [01:18:45] a wealth of knowledge. And also, as I get older, it's like, I feel like I [01:18:54] like the whole world belongs to me, or I'm part of the whole world. So it's like this No, there's no estrangement, there's less and less management, like, with it with clients like this is, is [01:19:09] you know, is it an identification with it? [01:19:12] To some extent, you know, it's a real, it's a surprising feeling threatened imagine you tell you these things. [01:19:23] What it's like to get older, but there's all this stuff that [01:19:27] yeah, that seems to happen. which is [01:19:34] which is really good. [01:19:38] Is a few, like, I stopped identifying much, much more with the Earth and in some ways that makes it harder, because because of the trouble is in that it's slightly there's nowhere to die from, you know, was it was slightly is it some? Yeah, there's no feeling with strangers. [01:20:00] And I'm, I'm [01:20:03] having, you know, different experience to tool because I'm noticing, you know, [01:20:12] the things that I can't do, you know, physically, you know, and, [01:20:18] and I think, I think because I had to me chronic fatigue syndrome for, you know, sort of head that was diagnosed with it 1935 know, when I was 35 [01:20:32] and so, prob are probably about 10 years, I was after being very physically active and very physically fit. I had a very period of, you know, very low energy. In the last few years, my energy has come back again, but now I do. And I feel like I've been a bit cheated of my life. Yeah. Because, you know, I spent quite a lot of time not having the energy to do the things, other, you know, 40 year olds and 45 year olds are doing and here I am at 64 and I still have these ideas. I have many creative ideas and many projects but I just can't do them you know, in in I think that's quite a bit of disappointment or [01:21:21] Yeah, some grief, crazy or bad. [01:21:27] Yeah, and I feel at the moment I'm I am in a bit of a limbo place or not quite sure. You know, I know that the life I'm living at the moment isn't sustainable for me. I'm not quite sure which unique So, a little bit of a limbo place.

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