St Peters church service (1967)

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[00:00:00] This audio comes from the collections of the lesbian and gay archives of New Zealand. For more information, visit logins.org.nz. It [00:00:13] is me getting [00:00:16] it tonight, people from all over the place together to worship God in a service, which is built around a particular theme. [00:00:23] Our concern is with the homosexuals in our society. [00:00:26] And we tried to present a Christian approach to their problem. [00:00:30] After the opening act of worship and Thanksgiving, you will hear several readings from the New Testament for the short story and the dialogue. [00:00:39] Then when we bought our imaginations and our mind to bear on the problem in these ways, we should end on these integrations. [00:00:48] To sort of begins now with the him [00:00:51] to come. Number 156, and hymns ancient and modern revive, you know, we call on the Holy Spirit to guide us to open now I have to love and our mind to treat. [00:01:12] For the Romans, [00:01:13] chapter one, and 14 [00:01:17] they exchanged the truth about God, or a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator with that [00:01:30] God gave them a dishonorable passion [00:01:33] that women [00:01:34] exchange natural relations for unnatural. [00:01:38] And the men likewise gave us national relations with women, and what consumed with passion for one another. [00:01:46] Men committing Seamus x with men, and receiving in their own person, the due penalty for that error. [00:01:56] Do you pass judgment on your brother? [00:01:59] Are you? Why do you despise your brother, [00:02:03] we should all stand before the judgment seat of God. [00:02:09] Matthew's Gospel from chapter 25. [00:02:15] When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, [00:02:20] then he will sit on his glorious throne. [00:02:24] Then the king will say to those on his right hand, [00:02:28] come on, get rid of my Father, [00:02:31] inherit the kingdom, [00:02:32] prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [00:02:36] And He will say to those on his left hand, Depart from me, you pass it into the eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. [00:02:47] But I was hungry, and you gave me no food. I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink. I was a stranger, and you did not welcome me. [00:02:59] naked, you did not clothe me. [00:03:02] Sick and uncertain, and you did not visit me? [00:03:07] Then they also will answer, [00:03:09] Lord, when did we see the hungry or thirsty, or a stranger? Or naked, or sick? Or in prison? And did not minister to me? [00:03:20] Then He will answer them. Truly I say if you have to do this, not [00:03:25] to one of these puppies. You did [00:03:28] it not to me. [00:03:32] The first john [00:03:35] chapter three, and for [00:03:38] little children, Let us love not in word or in speech, but in deed and in truth. [00:03:46] If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar. [00:03:52] For he who does not love your brother, he has seen [00:03:57] cannot love God, he has not been. [00:04:01] And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother. [00:04:11] Love it all. [00:04:14] times without number is under the use and abuse that familiar and ambiguous word. [00:04:22] And now the prison chaplain [00:04:24] had used it, sitting there in his office, listening to john Dory. [00:04:30] Don't have been three weeks [00:04:32] in prison. Perhaps the three brackets we have a life already over the moon will shout out. [00:04:42] For even [00:04:42] a group of other young men are 30. And you say nothing to mark him as different. [00:04:48] He's able intelligence, [00:04:50] well thought out in the bank where he works. [00:04:54] That he is different. [00:04:57] Gun is a homosexual. [00:05:00] This is a text that he's effective. [00:05:03] And it was men that he takes to make those loving relationship [00:05:08] on between a home life as a person with him. [00:05:14] I don't [00:05:14] know when john realized [00:05:16] he was different [00:05:19] is not a real he was very close, at some time commented on his lack of interest in girls. [00:05:27] But that was earlier [00:05:30] he was a bone bachelor is that not wanting to her. [00:05:35] And in time, she recognized [00:05:37] and accepted. [00:05:42] When he left home to work in Wellington, [00:05:45] he was trying very [00:05:46] hard to come to terms with his condition. [00:05:50] Not quite a full social life [00:05:52] and my friend particularly in a drama group, which he joined. [00:05:58] But he kept telling himself This is as far as it can go. [00:06:02] Just frame [00:06:05] it will me too well but society think [00:06:07] of homosexual, [00:06:09] uploaded and he reads the newspaper. [00:06:12] And hadn't the overhead is landlady telling a friend with some discuss that she thought [00:06:17] she had [00:06:18] a clear among our borders. [00:06:21] It was like that radiation, [00:06:24] the attitude, the things you read and heard. [00:06:30] JOHN five, [00:06:32] the only things become more no more aware of something vital length, [00:06:38] or growing emptiness at the center of his life. [00:06:42] He wanted the warmth and tenderness of marriage really devoted to give himself to love and to be loved. [00:06:53] But how could he the way he was? [00:06:58] Well, john, dig for it love [00:07:00] with a young man he met one night in a coffee bar [00:07:04] and got 13 colonies know most [00:07:08] likely, as we say of men and women [00:07:11] to fall in love. [00:07:13] And after some months the courtship, [00:07:15] they moved into a slap together. [00:07:18] JOHN separate steps in fear and trembling. [00:07:23] It wasn't altogether satisfactory. They were tension. Coral sometimes get as a as a friend as another human relationships. [00:07:34] But there was also love, [00:07:36] genuine care for each other. And the fulfilling experience of facing life in partnership. [00:07:45] JOHN couldn't imagine a return [00:07:47] to his solitariness. [00:07:51] They've been together for nearly a year [00:07:54] when the landlord gave him that is. [00:07:57] Currently another tenant has complained to him about having the neighbors [00:08:02] and about the pack attendees who came around and visiting. [00:08:06] He was sorry, but we didn't want to upset [00:08:10] the know you're taking effect. [00:08:13] After all the files they were concerned he has with him. [00:08:18] JOHN and [00:08:19] colon followed over this upheaval. And the relationship ended on a son it. [00:08:27] To cut a long story short, [00:08:29] john went back to his solitary boarding house existence. [00:08:34] That now he was getting better. [00:08:36] He has much more defined and frustrated [00:08:40] than before. [00:08:42] And it was it [00:08:44] was a desperate desire to regain [00:08:47] something about his law [00:08:49] that drove him from one as your relationship to another. And finally, into the arms of the law. [00:09:00] The first event [00:09:01] the second time, it was 12 months imprisonment. [00:09:07] Moxie use a john to the prison chaplain. [00:09:13] I've tried to fit in [00:09:15] to live my life and find happiness like everyone else. [00:09:19] I didn't ask to be a homosexual. I [00:09:22] didn't choose to be different. [00:09:24] And yet you've made me an outsider, a criminal, [00:09:28] a greater threat to society apparently, [00:09:30] then the adulteress who breaks up a home, [00:09:33] all the managers get a girl pregnant. Lisa holding the baby. [00:09:38] And drop. If you fall in love, and Mary, that's fine. But if I fall in love, and want to show you that position, and must be persecuted and punished. [00:09:54] Do you will arrive for a suicide? Or is that [00:09:57] for me? Who cares about? [00:10:02] Yeah, [00:10:03] who cares? [00:10:09] We should think about this for the class things and anthem based on a passage in the 14 chapters in John's Gospel, which speaks to God's gift of the Spirit of Truth. If you love me, keep [00:10:20] my commandments back on us. [00:10:55] I'm glad I wrote that chapter. [00:10:58] I wouldn't know what to say to someone john position. I mean hearing about john I suddenly realized [00:11:03] how easy it is to take for granted [00:11:05] the love and affection, the care and friendship I enjoy. I was just trying to imagine how I would feel at peace with the behind my back. We kind of took a girlfriend of or even with if I been addicted because of what other tenants said when I try to sit down with my wife all the more reason then for helping men right term to see what they like to see that God intended human nature to find fulfillment in marriage and the raising of a family that not everyone gets married or even those who do not always fortunate enough to have children. True, but some choose not to the various good reasons and share for a second assesses prevents other was it was a second set of the presenters. JOHN getting married. He said he wasn't feeling that way. About bachelor Is that what you mean? That's what he told his mother, you remember, the typos knew it wasn't true, even if that's what they would have liked to think all the same? It wasn't exactly is for you not as well as I do that our sexual tendencies become fairly to the stage, so much too young to have much influence on what happened. JOHN could no worries presented his sexual output when you could have a much richer objectively speaking your mind. So you do agree that it's better not to be a homosexual, of course. But you're missing the point. You're assuming that john had some choice about his sexual assault, but in fact he did. But surely they must have had some say in the matter. [00:12:23] Well, [00:12:24] you ask yourself, did you choose your sexual assault? Did you? [00:12:27] Well, [00:12:29] you put it like that I suppose I didn't know more job. [00:12:33] A person [00:12:33] can't help being born that has it all. With a black, brown, yellow white skin. know can you help us to be grows up with a different kinds of sexual personality? It's not a sin to be left handed. So they have a different colored skin. So why should homosexuality is a sin? must admit I've never thought of it quite like that before. Because what you mean is that it's not sinful to feel affection for one's own fix everyone that set up to a point. But those it's the sexual behavior, which results from letting these impulses run away with it. That's a really simple thing, exactly as in the case of capital section. It says to abuse the gifts of sexuality. You said, Yes, I see that clearly. address you see also by john found himself growing data. [00:13:17] He started [00:13:18] off by accepting itself but what he was [00:13:20] knowing limitations. But that was [00:13:23] the one time he achieved happiness within these limitations, invite wrong because other people for the rest of them, and wouldn't be similar. But there is another side to the picture. Surely the rest of the community has the right to ensure that this sort of behavior doesn't get out of hand. Isn't it just as much for their own good but some respects but on the cam, the community was trained as well as the law breaks, it must expect to be put in prison. What good is john prison sentence kind of doing? As far as I can see, it was only making more better and even more of an outsider. [00:13:55] It's common knowledge [00:13:57] by Superman like him, he'll never be made with the hardcore but homosexual world and either give up all hope for us to come up with the incentive incentive to come out of prison branded as an outsider. And this will probably forced him to adopt a way of life. He's never done before going into business. And so by condemning him, the community hasn't solved this problem. It's made it with India, the end the killer is worth vs will be confirmed that this will be taken as conclusive proof that prison is the only place for Mexico very well. The people on sent to prison just because of their homosexual they punish committing a crime. I'd rather send you another excuse for like knowing the problem has remained. Justice Jones said it's a strange know that are now sexual freedom to the adult delta theta as a female homosexual, but with hope that freedom from the male homosexual they have to keep coming back to the same fundamental problem. The homosexual whatever the sex with us tonight. So Paul, as you heard in that first reading tonight, vehemently denounces homosexuals thing, but haven't we learned a great deal got about six of those days, pull in the Old Testament writers had the mistaken idea which we've already been to, that the homosexual chose to be what he is [00:15:08] already accepted that because what he is, [00:15:10] but he can help what he does. That's what makes him a sinner, not what he is what he does, I would want to deny that I get it doesn't help me to see what Johnson is now you might think are necessary difficulties. I thought we'd already agreed that his thing was is abuse of God's different sexuality. I agree, the sexual sin is the abuse that escape or agree that was right, [00:15:32] interesting kind of sexual sin. Now, [00:15:35] john is a homosexual, [00:15:37] the take his relationship with color, [00:15:39] wealthy, abusing his gift of sexuality, and therefore sending I'm sorry, I don't quite follow your [00:15:45] work like this. Christianity condemn homosexuality, [00:15:50] representative of what is good in life. [00:15:54] talks about these prompted by law and develop an old fashioned word it does at least tell us what he for sexual sin is. It's the lack of respect for yourself, or for other people and sexual relations. [00:16:04] It's a sort of [00:16:05] disrespect or abuse that leads to deliberately establishing a sexual relationship [00:16:10] you can get out of it. You know, [00:16:12] but as I do, that, if you have that sort of attitude, the sex is not long before the whole meeting is destroyed. But surely not really basic surface a sexist procreation, having children, so I just gonna leave it be undertaken, when two people are totally committed to one another in marriage. There is part of a creative relationship. In my country, people exchange love, affection, so much I share a common life and common interest and responsibilities. Outside of this commitment, sex becomes a destructive for you get tension and jealousy, instability and the case. [00:16:45] Yes, but [00:16:46] isn't this a different situation where the normal kind of marriage and having children isn't a possibility simply because the a couple of homosexuals, and yet they love is genuine, they're committed to each other. And once like a life together, isn't necessarily sinful for six to come into this [00:17:03] world if you put it back where I'm not sure, because I feel john has been made a victim of his sexuality [00:17:10] is aware of his outlook. [00:17:11] But he's told that it's not a gift, because he's aware of its potential therapy so good and for bad, to have more aware of the way that we do take assets will get forgotten. But he's told us, however, he expresses I'll be sending. He wants to use his gifts in a creative way. But he's world that he must inevitably destroy. You want to have a share, and you will be given take of love and affection. He wants to have this sort of relationship with another person, without which well, but the exceptional few five lifestyle and St. Louis so to repress is evil urges, just like you and maybe he finds it perfectly natural to want to fulfill the physical side of his nature, not for what he can get out of it. That's what can put into it. But he saw that this was condemned. Now, I don't find any destructive force, but work in his particular case. See now exploitation movies and I have a personal work, I will either need some limitations on a human being trying to find fulfillment in ways that will be rewarding and enriching. That if you believe that, then it's [00:18:12] impossible for us to decide whether or not [00:18:15] they need to know so many things about his personal life to be at all certain. I know. Why should we want to decide that question? Suppose literate condemnation upon the sexual sin is followed up. And as Christians, we often forget this by an extremely possible reminder that only God sees [00:18:33] a half [00:18:34] and it sort of position to have a man with I think are beginning to see what you mean. You mean we've all sinned in some way or another haven't played. And if we don't constantly remind ourselves that this basic facts about human nature, we're in grave danger of Well, almost putting ourselves in golf place, I suppose. what it amounts to is this but it's not our place to judge and condemn. [00:18:57] Such poverty the left [00:18:59] for me is [00:19:00] the whole meaning of Christianity boils down to sculpt concerned for all men, no matter who they are papa. [00:19:07] He accepts us all. Not just in word and speeches or reading for it. But indeed and food. [00:19:14] He got so deeply involved with us three even became one of them and diapers are always so that we could really start really existing and begin living life to the full [00:19:23] acceptance, [00:19:24] since we are keywords [00:19:26] and of course you can't access unless you know [00:19:30] now, [00:19:31] Christians are the sort of love God has for the officers isn't a feeling we enjoy what [00:19:38] the man is a man oh man as God accepts them [00:19:42] with no reservation. Yes, I agree with you. But wouldn't you also want to make it plain that the Christians acceptance of all men must be a critical obsession with my part of Christian teaching to say that we should live at those things didn't exist. And that can be the hotel with a great deal of homosexual activity as simple. Young boys are molested. Publications is a funded, young men and women are subjected to mental and emotional pressure. Just wanna laze type of the customers of the color of promiscuity have some homosexual circles and I miss you know, any more than the scourge of blackmail is. All these things must be recognized for what they are, since [00:20:20] it was no concern of mine to suggest they didn't know. It's the idea [00:20:24] that homosexual activity is sinful, simply and solely because it's homosexual. The idea that Richard black and white distinctions possible here that I want to reject. [00:20:36] This lesson we learned from john story. [00:20:41] Let us [00:20:48] know [00:20:50] there are so many sides to this, we have no way to begin. [00:20:56] But there are some things we can see clearly. [00:21:01] Lord, [00:21:02] era, when we pray for those who are involved in sexual sin, [00:21:09] degrade your gifts, [00:21:11] and collapse other [00:21:18] rules by law [00:21:20] and use others for their own satisfaction. [00:21:25] We will [00:21:26] and take the easy way [00:21:33] we play especially for homosexuals. [00:21:37] For a [00:21:37] deeper understanding of the problem, and an awareness of the birth of being different. [00:21:47] For all who have closed mind, for that matter. [00:21:51] For all the projects that are hitting guilt, [00:21:53] and fear, in harsh condemnation, [00:21:57] for tongue that way, and we and with that we [00:22:05] are there is you can find no one to turn to [00:22:09] God is in Japan, and the fair [00:22:12] to contemplate suicide because of what people think, or say. [00:22:21] And we play [00:22:23] for studying homosexuality, [00:22:26] or new knowledge, new ways of helping [00:22:32] doctors and psychiatrists [00:22:35] and counselor, [00:22:36] and will help us by [00:22:38] those who suffer in this way. [00:22:44] For just laws [00:22:46] concerning our sexual behavior for those who make those, and those who administer them. [00:22:59] We pray that you remove [00:23:01] in mind [00:23:04] bringing up get the understanding [00:23:06] and sympathy [00:23:08] with training, judgment, [00:23:11] teaching us to love fellow men and women [00:23:14] with another like you're [00:23:17] reminding us that we are all sinners [00:23:20] in need of your mercy and forgiveness. [00:23:24] And [00:23:26] may we never hear you say, [00:23:29] Depart from me [00:23:30] because we fail to recognize you in a neighbor

This page features computer generated text of the source audio - it is not a transcript. The Artificial Intelligence Text is provided to help users when searching for keywords or phrases. The text has not been manually checked for accuracy against the original audio and will contain many errors.