Roy Ayling and Norman Gibson

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride nz.com. Miriam you've just shown me a photo of two chips and lottery uniform in 1960 and France. Roy in Norman. Tell me about Roy Norman. [00:00:16] Well, Norman as my father Norman Pyro gifs, and that was his name. And he went off to the First World War, they will fist in Egypt. And then he was a machine gunner. And Roy was actually a rifleman from Oakland. But somehow they meet up or we're in the same troopship, perhaps. I think they were to get an Egypt is because they had a chameleon, which we had as children. It was a stuff when it died. When it went to France. It was too cold and it died. And somebody took a back to London and it was stuffed and my father had the stuffed chameleon. But this everywhere Norma there and the Battle of the song. My father had his 21st birthday and three days later, was shocked through the neck and was carted off not expected to live. He had quite a lot of shrapnel in him. And Roy was devastated. There's a beautiful poem that's in the book, but it's also written on the back of the book. [00:01:15] Hercules starts off about Hercules form, [00:01:20] form like Hercules of old mighty limbs and shapely mold, manly strength and beauty rolled old sunshine. Obviously, he wrote it after my father's injury because it says, rare the road way I had tried all the shell scarred, stricken sod without him to help me plug, old sunshine. So when night doth hold his way, outstretched arms, I fling and pray, send him back, the god someday, old sunshine. [00:01:54] It's very moving, it's always moved me. I always cry when I read this. [00:02:00] Well put it on the back. [00:02:03] So said they couldn't be together all the time. And another era they might have been. And maybe if they lived in the city they might have if they had followed Roy's occupation rather than my father, who of course had a farm. And when I first discovered this poem, of course, I recognized instantly the Hercules because I was always Atlas. [00:02:30] I'm the black my father big and strong, and I was a shot [00:02:34] Porter. And I still, and I'm still pretty strong, as strong as I used to be my daughter can beat me was wrestling. Finally, in my 70s, she started to beat me but so we have this strength. My father's strength was absolutely amazing. Being on road so personally. But Roy was much slimmer, and more delicate bloke really. So here in my office was carted off. He was obviously there were obviously in love or certainly was in love with my father. He was devastated. And he got taken out, possibly suffering from depression. But given that there were just dead blokes all around them, and the Battle of the summit was hideous. So he had some respect, and then went back to the front. But later he came to London, he got time off and came to London, those few survives the first battle, the first battles and 16. And it was there that I think my father's nude photographs were taken. pinker on the phone, and from a photographer, and this is Frank, new is written on the air, but you never know about the missus. Years later, when I discovered the poem, it was written in a book called New Zealand at the front. And there's a number of men of significance in that book really early. And I think a number of those men who were writing at that time, possibly were possibly gay or Sydney liked me. But I was so surprised to see pause by my father, because he wrote under the name Paro but have been part of it was not a common name. I've never heard anyone else in New Zealand called powder. It means mad. So I'm not sure why. But my grandfather grew up in a past. So he spoke loudly. So he had some reason why a little blonde, blue eyed boy pattern. [00:04:38] I just want you to just just sneak back a wee bit because, I mean, I am not aware of a lot of documentation around so you have the sexual relationships for people and the First World War. I mean, this is sounds quite unique to me. How did you? I mean, how did you come across this relationship? [00:04:57] Well, I always knew that my father live with ROI. But growing up as a child with that information, I never thought about them doing anything together. And then a friend of mine showed me Sage TNC discuss your father. There was no legal aliens impossible Austin's book, so HT about how he and rz is Nate rode on bicycles up to me, I just been time with the main and how the main had new dinner parties often mean how my aunt's coughed at the gate to make sure someone put something on so that were decent when the woman came in. How a story about one men almost burning his genitals on the hot plate when I was carrying the roast. Got that story. And also the silver serving, serving dishes and 40 I had photographs of them my mother had given them to me. Not saying why. And trust identify them use those. Let's see the dishes that had held vegetables at this dinner party. So I still have those to save into. And I read an interview toss by the and I was really interested by at this stage. This was in the 80s. So I managed to get it flat down to Nelson. I took it at ED where he lived and interviewed him and he of course to start with he was very safe and vigil really, he wasn't going to say too much. And he and he said there are no overt signs of homosexuality. And then I said well, you know we about say lived and and I thought that they lived in the house that I grew up in but it wasn't it was the house across the road. And so he described the house and ruin normal head that bedroom, and he and as he sleeps in the other room and there was a bit of talk about the potty full of piss underneath the bed that's nowhere near empty. And so the housekeeping on to go to you. But and then he stopped and he said, Well, the main change that will be made. And so I thought oh, that's that's something. And then he said, I said well what was my father like and he said all he was quiet bloke. He didn't say very much he sort of went out on the farm and he did all farmer he's a midst is strong, and really did all the housework effective as a very good wife. So they're sort of put it on place for me. I mean, one can never prove whether people are sexual or not. But I think two blokes sharing a beard. And my cousin, in fact, linked to some of the new blood is not that his father knew his father would have whipped him. But and he told me before he died, how he had gone, and how the he folded up his clothes very neatly, just as Roy told him to do and put them in a neat pile and set around with the main everyone was very polite and nice to him. There was some because he knew I did a lot of research on sexual abuse, he was very clear, nothing like that was happening. And how he had learned about six through boy telling him about some love, and saying that you always must be in control of your penis, you mustn't let it control you. And I thought so many men have that wisdom put on them even today. So that was really nice. And he painted quite a nice picture of Roy, who liked cooking like sewing particularly and made fancy dress costumes for the local school, concert and things like that. So in fact, Roy it was the same star sign as my mother. The same build, they both belong to the operatic society. They both wanted to be journalists and writers. They were very, very similar. It's just my mother could have children and the family after my uncle was killed. He only had one son, who was had polio. So he had a lump, but he was also homosexual. And I don't know whether my grandfather had an instinct to know that because he definitely wanted a manly man, so to speak. So he wanted my father to have children because all the other sons were now deed. So there was this all this pressure on my father. So he broke up with Roy and my mother was in a difficult position. So [00:09:15] so from talking with toss, did you then work when we're tussles memories of of Ryan Norman, where what kind of us [00:09:25] but he published at 1982. So it was after that that I found out but he was talking about the 1920s. They split up in 1930 or 31 was when Lance died and I split up around about that time to you wanted to, it was a bit unsure that Roy was incredibly upset. And so he supported Roy. [00:09:45] And then from that point, did you then work back [00:09:47] east. And so I found then I started reading about the First World War. And so and then I found the book. We had a copy at home of New Zealand the front. So I think we might have last night have had one copy I looked in secondhand bookshops for it, I handed around. And finally I managed to borrow a copy of my cousin and photocopied it sorry, breach of copyright, but sometimes needs mast if it's the only copy around. And then there was another copy in the Oakland Museum library of the second edition. And I think I photocopied a few now Roy had pans and that and so that my father, but not so many from my father was much more of a writer than my father. And What amazed me was the palm, including God in my father's palms, because we were brought up with him as a staunch atheist. He said, he was stuck in no man's land, at one point in the war, full of beautiful German soldiers or did and he at that point, he decided they will God, he would never allow me to do the struggle mean. So although he was still a staunch Iris, a person, very anti conscientious objectors. He still had this view that was such a waste and so terrible. And like many of the media came back from the first world for a lot of conflict, I think about why they even went to war. What was the reason of system error? Socratic dispute over boundary, I think, was a trigger or something someone said, I couldn't. I was more interested in the actual happenings in the song and probably all the beginnings of the probably a bit of a slip heavy researcher and these things I'm not so interested. But from my point of view, I really wanted to know about how they live their daily life and what they did. And so on. And Roy Wasn't he was a vegetarian certainly was later on father wasn't he was a hunter and shot goats and pigs and and try to clear the mountain of goats mapped out Nikki. So he was doing that during the 40s. And possibly probably stopped in the into the 40s, perhaps. So we were used to, you know, killing sheep for meat and having pigs and things like that. So it wouldn't have been noise cup of tea, I don't think. But sadly, he died in the 50s. And I can my only memory of Reuters is leaks. Beautiful Brown, then league theory brief shorts at the top. I don't remember his face was any small. That's GIFs. [00:12:47] Under the look that far up. [00:12:52] So what do you think was the relationship that I mean, how did they do you know, having me and what the relationship was when they were? [00:13:00] They were at us, from Roy's point of view, telling and tosses story is that Roy, so my father diving into a pond in France, and fell in love with his body. So it was a physical attraction, I think to start with. But then they spent time together in London. And there was our I think my father was into a bit of a network in London because I do have a book that was published by Robert whose name escapes me of Oscar Selita writings of Oscar Wilde, and he went to the launch of it. So I think it's a bit suspicious. We had lots of books about Somerset norm. So my parents had gay writers in their bookcase. And my mother played the piano, we had sing songs we had when my cousin who I know is gay, he's dead now. But I knew he was gay. The front room door was always shut, my father can be talking. Also, sometimes I was shocked when jack was talking now, check. Not sure whether he's still alive. He's alive A few years ago, he was the first person to fly over Mount Everest and he flew over in the Second World War. JACK was maybe the instigation of the beginning of the breakout, the pressure on my father to leave Roy and Mary or leave with Roy. Because Roy obviously admired jack, who was a handsome young men and made a South Seas outfit and a gladiators outfit for him. So I think they are the father who had quite Victorian Well, of course, my father was born in 1895. Roy was born in 1886. So there had very old fashioned ideas from our perspective. So I think that my grandfather, see I get the impression he was fairly anti gay, and he hadn't sexual. And he's pointed out to my father that Roy was homosexual. And they could either go together or, and get their own the farm, but it was that sort of family pressure that you had to abide by really. So that was sort of pressure on my father and my father and mother had a good relationship. Really, they were great companions. They did lots of Ghana, they danced together, they blocked the Benedict's Club, which was the dance club, they went to opera and songs and we got all involved and in doing songs and things and new Clemmer. We had a little local climb, you know, drama club, and farmers stomping around playing pats and the whole, and then when a school teacher Lyft to another place, we swapped and plays down up for a worry who Yeah, and they came into the place with us. So that was, that was a good interest for my mother and father because they liked acting and theater. And so I'm stuck with the farm at two cows to milk daily that my father visited Roy, though all the time, I remember, often he would go off and see ROI and ROI is lunchtime. He worked, I think for an electrical company or something doing office work. And he lived on cowling road. And he was very friends with the neighbors and they went to a lot of concerts together. And Roy was involved in Little Theatre and newcomer my mother could no longer be in the little data because she was out on the farm having babies so so they sort of swapped some clubs. But my father would cross off and go and see Roy and be awake or an hour or an hour. And then we were might have a special treat fish and chips, fish and chip shop and you know, was too soft vinegar and lemon, or sometimes the RSI he would go to the RSI. And at other times he probably reached a newcomer, then we nobody else went with them. So after he kept up certainly an association with Roy. And when Roy was dying, he had stomach cancer. I suspect because he was vegetarian grew a lot of vegetables, he probably use the sprays and things that were around at the time because it was all pushed as being great for visual garden and killing the weeds and stopping various diseases. I suspect that might have been the reason, but also the gas and the war. And so could be many reasons. He way when he was sick, my mother used to make chicken broth and take it and when they went to town, there was always a [00:17:45] part of something to take away. And some things. So after he died, we got a new car. So my father was paying off that role as part of the farm. And I think that a long time because I had been a depression mini got married. So I think that was a boon for them. [00:18:09] So [00:18:11] my mother was a negative about the mortgage. But she didn't say anything else negative. And my father never said anything. Well, he wasn't really except occasionally, he would surprise you by coming out with a Greek quote or you know, rain that's for now. Didn't rain of heaven, you know, a bit of Shakespeare for that. And he left school at 12. But he was actually well read and, and my mother had done Greek at university. So they and they were quite into Spartan things Plato, they loved Plato, then several books on Plato. They thought we should all be good Spartans and work hard on the farm and so on. We weren't quite so I'm used to those ideas. [00:18:58] In your research, during the time that they were in World War One, did you come across any other kind of homosexual relationships? [00:19:10] Well, that's what I was looking for. I was hoping to find connections, and the only one really, that I felt any seats for was reality. And but I did think some of the names in New Zealand at the fan would have been with chasing up. But I didn't do that. I mean, I was working full time and thousand other things [00:19:32] going on. So [00:19:35] it must be quite tricky to work out with a you know, as comradeship as a sexual I mean, how do you kind of navigate trying to put on what we would classify music relationship today into something 100 years ago? [00:19:51] Well, particularly the reality because he lived with a four young men I think he had in his house. And of course, the Chinese are not kissing on homosexuality, and yet he was revered in China. So much so that we all get free visas. I think we can still get free visas to China. So thanks to reality, but they didn't realize that he was gay. Well, most of us think he was gay. You know, the bits and pieces that I've gleaned on his life and song. He certainly wasn't [00:20:22] a blatant heterosexual, that's for sure. [00:20:25] So I think some of the other men might have been the same. Now some people say, Well, after the First World War, there was so traumatized that they came to each other, you know, trying to deny any human sexuality. But having new dinner parties, I actually think that that solved up for me and the double bead. I didn't think that having a double beard with the end that time. I great thing. 1919 I came back from the war. My father spent some of his money in an hour and a drill a horse drawn draw to sow seed, which we then converted to pull behind the tractor, which we were still using on the farm and as they enter into the 30s. [00:21:08] So [00:21:11] they were a little tip, but I suppose and that's what I gleaned like my hero fears in the pond. My father is old sunshine. Sunshine. That cat name came from when I was in Rotorua when I was starting to work on this book. So that must have been 1989 1990. And there was some gaming there. Farmers of that great big hands. Oh, amaze me there in a tea shop. And that this delicate little cups, these great big farming hands, pouring tea into cups. So I go there for a cup of tea and cake and talk to them. And I said, Look, there's a notation in one of the poetry books that says to sunshine with my very best love granny. So and I'd my sister about it. And she said, Well, there wasn't anybody alive then no Granny, so it couldn't have been his mother. And his grandmother, at least his mother was still alive, but not as grandmother. So I asked this me and I said look, rabbit discovered this. And I remember me too old sunshine, you know, sun shines. And then I realized sun shines out. Yes. Okay. And my father had beautiful you can see by the nude photographs on the book. He's got a lovely buttocks. Very nice buttons. So Granny, granny and Artie, that's what we call an old man, he brings a younger man out. So I was quite happy with it. I didn't really ask other people. But they were very interested. And I showed them pictures that I had, I did come across a social worker up north, who had some interesting information about nudity, and a group of sort of sunshine lovers. So nudists. And so I put a bit of that in the book, she sent me some bad photocopies, which I tried to reproduce them not that great in the book, but it's just an added dimension, that there was a group here in New Zealand after the First World War, whereas in Germany, of course, this became very big, because they'd lost the war meant that their soldiers weren't robust enough, and they needed lots of sunshine. And so they had very organized as the Germans do, health camps and so on, particularly for me. And possibly, that's where the gay culture of the 11 came from, who knows that there's a good gay culture and those books that we now have about times and Berlin and Christopher issuance book is I've read books as well. [00:23:52] So the poems that Roy and Norman road with a for publication, or they just for personal, [00:23:59] that will part of the only ones I have are those that were published in New Zealand at the front. There were no little booklets or anything that they actually published, but they had many poetry books. And what I noticed and and I point that out in the book, was that they made little notations. One has some reference to the modern student leagues or something Android written in his hand, right? Not like mine. So there are little comments to each other about the palms. The other thing they did at the dinner parties was they spent a lot of time reading verses from America and it was very popular in the 20s. So then around, you know, they under the bow, my loaf of bread and a glass of wine, that sort of palms and, and my father continue to recite them again, when we were young, when he came to wake us up to go and get the cows for milking awake for the morning ball of light has put the stars replied, and the lantern, the East has caught the Sultan's current and the moose of light, that sort of, quote, and so on. So that as a sort of preeminent really, how did [00:25:04] how did Norman explain the relationship with Roy to you as children never did. [00:25:11] It was just a fact that Roy had been there, and Roy was no longer with you. [00:25:16] So it was just societal pressure. Back in the day, we people just couldn't have like, openly homosexual relationships. [00:25:26] Well, there was been certainly living there openly since 1919 1931. That's quite a substantial period of time. They did things together, they were involved in the local community really making costumes and things. So maybe they excited just to mean traumatized by the war. Maybe they didn't think about six. Who knows. But there was a lot of freedom. I mean, there was beating McDonald's here that was going on in the 20s, too. So there was a lot of certain amount of freedom, I think, in New Zealand in the 20s, about nudity and about gay, I think it was a much more gay society, and certainly in the mental health records. If someone came and depressed, described as a man or woman, which was, or sometimes they mentioned the third sakes. And an introvert was the other term they used to Hillary literally, and I did some research on op files. There was no they treated the depression, they treated the problem. But once we missed out from the 30s, to the 50s, there was a chunk of files missing in the 50s. They ignore the presenting symptoms, they were matching, I honed in on human sexuality and trying to change it with insulin sharp and terrible stuff. So there was a big change. And I see that as relating to the Second World War and the Americans influencing the people health, you know, putting in that homosexuality was mental disorder, that's where lesbians really had a hard time because they use d-ct on these fields, many things. So and some of those, these bands are still too frightened to come here, for instance, to the museum, because of what was done to them, high anxiety. Others were brought in by themselves, secretly. So it was a bad black time, I think, for homosexuals. And a number of Well, I think any gay man who caught Lyft, New Zealand and went to London, was plenty of cottage into the head there. [00:27:36] So do you think Roy Norman would have actually seen themselves in a kind of a homosexual way? Or is that just like a construct now looking back, [00:27:46] it might have been a construct up from our perception, looking back, then we're used to being close to each other and doing things together in a trench for half the time the people so used to trying to do what they could to an injured comrade. [00:28:03] The trauma and grief of losing friends [00:28:08] that would bind them together. But the fact that they stayed together so long and weren't ostracized by the community, which is a very small Crimea is a very small place at the dots on the map. I mean, angle, it's the closest town. It knows days ahead of post office, a tennis court and a bowling green. That's cool. Now it has nothing. shut out parts of the tennis court. Still the other school buildings are still there. So it's very, very small. And it was made up of a mixture of Scottish English and German settlers. So there were months hence and Zimmerman's they were Patterson's the Scottish Patterson's and Gibson's and then there were the Robinsons on the George's I think we're [00:28:56] just going back on the story are we building you're saying that success Norman got shot? And in Roy got depressed? Can you tell me a wee bit more about that? [00:29:06] Well, I just looked at the army records and and followed those. And so Roy had some time out, and then went back to the front and then later he came on leave to London, I didn't know very much wasn't very clear. Roy also suffered from varicose veins during the time that it was that I mean, the conditions would breed fallen, getting fresh socks was a was a Marvel really. Which was why the voiceprints discovery of a photograph of him missing sucks for the men in the First World War. So it's just good little tip that you don't get the full story. I didn't know that. When Roy's mother was dying, my father drove all the way. And what would have been an old car all the way to Oakland on metal roads to take way out to deal with the death of his mother. And then they seem to miss it. They got tossed on rz to move the cows for the mother or way and so seem to message down a telegram down to toss would they be able to move them a bit longer because there was a concert they'd like to go to. So that happened they stayed a bit a few days longer. So they did go to concerts together. And so whenever an Auckland but who knows I'm in the scene and Auckland during the 20s was really around theater, concerts, cultural things there was picking up in our park just across from the police station that used to be influences string. That seemed to be fairly risky, but gaming seem towards take high risks, I think. And so I think the 20s were also special time that I think that there was much more gayness around in Europe, as well as here. There are many clubs in Europe, many, many clubs, the first lesbian magazine was published in the 1924. And they are 60 lesbian clubs in Berlin alone can't find one now. change their much we're changing society. [00:31:12] In the nude photos of your father, [00:31:15] they were obviously done in a studio, possibly for for Roy's benefit. So I don't know whether there are present for Roy or, or why they were construed and so on. My father was not seen back to the front after he recovered. He was ill for some time. But he trained he knew there was insane to grant them he was an Hornchurch first unlimited grant them and train troops there. So he's still in the military and, and bulk to right after the end of the war. So he wasn't didn't really come back until 1919. and came back with Roy, I think they were on the same boat from but can always trust my memory now. But I did get the army records. And fortunately, I just the ROI. And I assume ROI must have been a relative of mine, and gave me his records. But normally I think now there would be strict on I probably wouldn't have access to them. Years later, I'd never found my father's grave. And so a few years ago, I did go to New Plymouth and find my father's grave in the area, say cemetery. So then I was looking at the years and trying to work out where Roy's was, and I found was wasn't too far away, just couple of lines away. So and there are some days he's growing by his grave. So I took some days from his grave to my father's grave and some bag again, and my mother's ashes scattered with my father's grave. So there's no plaque or anything for her, which I think so that said, I'm not sure that we can put something in the area say for someone who's not from the area say for wasn't a soldier. So [00:33:00] tell me about your life post World War One. [00:33:04] And Roy, I think that accounts or something, what did he do, it was something I office type things and writing and involved with the theater and the concerts and so on. He was up in Oakland. And my father was on the farm. He lives here at 12 worked on the farm. And so they would have run a different farm than the one we grew up on. When my father decided to get married, they had to put a wall back on this house that was probably built in about 1880. And because I'd used as a sheet so the stack the wall back up and took the hay out, probably cleaned out the rats and so on. And then my mother coming from the city had to deal with their fortunately, she had taken home science at university with Greek art and literature. I'm sure that the Greek that much richer data too well, but the home science it needed to know exactly how to skin and prepare rabbits and whatever came and to the house we ate eels rabbits, I love to pressure you for quite hard to eat. [00:34:08] So I don't know where the ROI was good at doing those things. But as Todd said he was a very good why. [00:34:13] So I think he probably maybe tiny, [00:34:17] red as arrangements and flowers and things. It seemed to be that sort of a person from what I gleaned from my writings and and just the notations in the poetry books, I still have those little poetry books, and they had written to each other. And then sometimes they were gifts to each other. Some of them had the first leaf written ripped out. So I suspect my mother might have done that. [00:34:41] So [00:34:43] not sure who ripped the family. [00:34:46] I think that was perhaps a bit more blatant words there. I got my sister had some books and she had Robbie burns collect books that had the to sunshine with grannies very loud. So she told me that of course before she knew what it means, wanted written the book, she knew what it meant. But she also hid it from her husband. I don't think he ever saw that book. Just the nude on the cover would have upset and he was from a gym stock and Lutheran. So [00:35:25] my sisters are much more conservative. [00:35:29] So after all the research, you published your book in the late 90s. Yes. How was that received? [00:35:36] Well, not so well. I'm publisher and was in quite a hurry, which means that I wasn't clear to the printer in the back end. It's got lots of lots of mistakes. And I published it for the Kairos and 10 or 100 years of time in school. And they wouldn't let me have it there. [00:35:53] Because of because it was shocking. [00:35:58] But I hadn't read it. But it was about my father. So obviously there was some gossip around, and also that I was such an out lesbian by the end. And I was shocking, [00:36:07] probably. So [00:36:12] some of the older people were really friendly to me, but others as the ones that were still living in time here I will not so friendly to me know, the wanted moved away to cities and so on are much more liberal and quite accepting of me being so out as a lesbian, but [00:36:31] not the locals. [00:36:33] With us now being the we're in the hundredth year hundredth anniversary of World War One. Are you aware of any other New Zealand military personnel that have had kind of pharmaceutical relationships that have that, you know? [00:36:49] No, I don't. [00:36:51] I always regretted that I didn't spend time to hunt up those men who were published and nice enough at the front. But was writing books about sexual abuse of children and stopping child abuse and so on. And it was also quite seriously ill. So I didn't [00:37:08] I didn't do all the things I wanted to do still have. And of course, I've got a long list still [00:37:15] projects. [00:37:18] writing the book to change your perception of your dead [00:37:23] is I [00:37:27] there are little things about my father that I [00:37:31] put together. Like his boys, he had the soft intonation at some game in here. It was a soft, I mean, it wasn't when he was angry and yelled at you. But he had the soft intonation when he said things quietly. That lived. [00:37:47] And [00:37:49] yeah, the nude photographs then fell into place by doing the research then understood, because I tried to took me ages to try and decipher the mucha on photographs. To start with, I thought it was Frank. And then it looked like Mrs. Frank, you are and then someone said it could be true and so that [00:38:14] it's hard to read the surname. [00:38:17] So this guy thought I should go to London and look for the photographer. But neither did I go to London last to this game today. But [00:38:29] trying to find someone to stay that was it was affordable. I friends. [00:38:37] So yeah, there's a lot. [00:38:41] I just regret that I didn't, [00:38:46] that you don't have the resources to do that sort of research. And, and I think it's still hard to get resources to do gay research. It's not high on the list of research. And the whole thing about the First World War, they're not telling about the traumatized men and how terrible fathers they were. And how skewed [00:39:06] things were it was much more [00:39:08] so military [00:39:10] orientated. And there was no qualms about shooting things didn't [00:39:18] think that they [00:39:20] overlook that, partly because they are our own ancestors went so hot. And the second world war was just despair. One thing that Mrs. out and the second world war that I did my performance about was as a woman 1941 My father was sent off to train them to train troops. So what did the government do they seem to a young road to run the farm because my mother didn't milk cows. too, too busy cleaning rabbits and, and looking after she had a breastfed baby and three young children. So three other four young children to handle together at that time. So they sent a young managed to run the farm. And he was expected they quickly put an add on to the house which was really tumbled down so on the way the boards have fallen off at the stage. It wasn't a [00:40:11] good healthy place to the [00:40:13] so caught up and even shorja building attached to the end of the hall where he was to live. [00:40:22] And, of course, one [00:40:25] day he tried to write my mother in the bedroom, and I was in a court as 18 months old, and I scream so much. I had a flashback to it years later and asked my mother about it. And she said, nice. I never said anything about it because I thought you'd never remember. But she said yes, you scream so much that it stopped and he couldn't continue. And he turned around and got a pillow and tried to smother you. And I was trying to drag him off you. And she said him from the norm. You had trouble with your breathing. For that to be my asthma comes from. [00:40:59] We have a lot of allergies. But so [00:41:04] and I think how many women did they happen to whose husband struggled after the war, and they were sent. And we some young man who wouldn't understand he wasn't selected, possibly because he was cross out ahead flat feet or some little you wasn't a real man, because he didn't run the great adventurous men source. [00:41:24] Not knowing the realities. [00:41:27] So he'd have all the hallmarks of the angry resentment that builds up and take it out on a weaker person than yourself, which is how I find rapists. Thank having worked for in the present. It's interesting that I chose to work in a prism sex offenders for so long, 12 years. No longer because I work with adolescents light of a job youth and family. [00:41:54] So [00:41:56] and they're not they don't talk about that they don't talk about the demonstration. Welcome back for more and expected to take up life again. And and the healthy good fathers. I don't think that happens. Their visions distorted. They don't. And they have quite severe Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. So you know, there, there's many secrets, I think and you see it and we're at the end of the world. And the stories don't actually go anywhere. very open about I mean, people were shocked when I started talking about the sexual abuse of children and journalists tried to shut me down and so on. But I just if every child had a happy, healthy childhood, what a lovely world we would have. We are in a beautiful country. If the dairy famine stopped floating on the rivers [00:42:47] Did you ever talk about Norman's no relationships? [00:42:53] No, no. [00:42:56] It seemed to be acceptable that he went off to have time with her. There seemed to be acceptable. But sometimes my mother was negative about the money paying but I mean they put all their war money in what I couldn't understand is why they couldn't stay there together [00:43:16] when I owned the farm, [00:43:18] but it seems like parental pressure was still had to be observed

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