Rob Lake - homosexual law reform

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride in Rob, my first encounter with you was seeing a TV clip with you and Neil Costello in 1985. And it was an was during law reform, and you were talking about self defense course. Can you tell me about that? And where that kind of came from? [00:00:25] A five. Yeah. So there was quite a burst of gallop stuff going on. And from my perception, a lot of that sort of grew out of the uni out of Pretoria. And so as a generation of activists, many of whom we sort of blended together, through Springbrook to, you know, was that sort of, we're all at that have lived together, you know, so this is two years before, so I should house with them with Neil and some number of women, Karen Thorson, some who, who were very much part of the tour, then tour stuff, it sort of built from the internet side sort of came out in into into that. So I came out my first year of uni, which I think was 81 ready to whichever was the of the tour, it was that and so I never finished the only get six months of uni, I never finished uni. So I'm, I am, I basically did politics for that. For that, and, and we had a really strong there's a really strong sort of queer sort of sub part of that any tour stuff, not particularly outward, you're not not particularly kind of visual, but we just that was how we knew each other and things. And when, when we just went from there, and most of a lot of the political, gay political stuff and monitoring the switchboard and stuff were funded by the dancers of adversity. Yes, it part, you know, that self defense, I think was just there was this real activity of stuff going on? You know, and I remember a lot of the dates and as we were, we were doing it together, because, you know, there was violence going on, you know, and, and, you know, it was it was that, you know, we just, I think, you know, we just felt like we needed to be ready for it and thing you ran, who ran the self defense, he went on to run out. So like a business owner in self defense and trying to get management self defense. And I think at that point, me and me and me, were lovers and and I just, I just always have this vision of going home. I don't think I was there, I would have been living at home, but going home, and my family, you know, my dad and mom were having dinner. And this was on that it was on the TV. And it was just [00:02:49] awkward. [00:02:51] Because he's me, you know, I think I had this huge man of hair, and earrings ice with huge earrings. And [00:03:00] there was just like, I'm speechless, you know. And [00:03:04] so it was really funny, what wasn't. And, um, but that's, but there was just that this amazing sort of, [00:03:12] you know, energy leading into all that long form stuff. And it it just bought out a whole load of other stuff. It was like, you know, it was a catalyst for a whole lot of other stuff. And for us, I mean, I actually started off through the switchboard. When I first came out, this is the guy switch, yep, yep, down at Baccarat Street, you know, in the, in the basement. And so the switchboard used to be funded by the dancers and the community center used to be found about dancers, and we were just sort of took it on a bit as a in so we made no, you know, renovated it and just got sort of second and that was, and that was where the I was, it called in, you know, the light the archive for the air. And for Parkinson was looking after the archives, and then at the same time as well. So it was everything was just in the one place, you know, in Boca Street. [00:03:58] So it was, as usual, somebody just coming out to be a part of all of these kind of activities, or were you or whatever, no, [00:04:06] I, I don't know, I kind of [00:04:10] had to come up with a bang, you know, because I'm, I had caught a consumer, my parents were quite conservative and Christians, and Philly paste was coming out. And so it was a, it was a bit of a regular thing for me. And you know, it did a feeling but like coming home, you know, and it was coming home to politics really, to me, which was, you know, I've never really been particularly political at school. And, you know, I went to a private school with Scotts and, you know, didn't didn't really do anything there, you know, because nothing, I mean, was was not like an optically political or were there my family weren't? No, I just, it was like, I just found it, you know, and I think I probably it was a combination of, of the mix, I think there was a lot of active activism at the time. So because I, the first thing I really got involved in with was men's, was men's movement stuff started off around a service. But then we set up a thing called so the women had a thing going called on women against pornography. And so we had Megan's pornography. And we were doing, you know, we were doing a protest outside Mrs. Young contests. And we did some stuff with [00:05:28] teenagers at school around men and pornography. And [00:05:33] yeah, so there was a lot of feminists thing going on with that, as well. And like I said, more with us was a big part of that. I think he's an urban. Yeah. Yeah, so so we did the map stuff. I did a lot, you know, I was doing a certain was training and things with the men's movement thing, half of whom then ended up being gay. I mean, I was I was sort of, you know, I came out and then got in that stuff, because I really enjoyed it, you know, I thought was really interesting. And then, but it but it was, I love the community center stuff. I love that the work in the way and the people were amazing. And it was just, it was quite powerful community to come into. [00:06:12] So what was the community center, [00:06:14] so it was a drop in place a few nights a week. [00:06:19] And it was, it was really the hub of weird things going on, you know, [00:06:25] I have so many memories. I mean, I couldn't remember, a thing must have been so blessed when it came was when it came back from you from San Francisco, I think, came back with an American guy. And I remember they came down and had a sit like a little meeting in, I think was counseling sales people, or switchboard people. And we're talking about this American thing, this thing that was happening in the US and Russia very, but I mean, I come in what we call it them. And they were like, the singers gone crazy, you know, you need to be aware of this. And that was, you know, that was when we, that was sort of when we started some of that, that work as well. [00:07:04] So that would have been what around? It was 84 384 [00:07:06] I think Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so like, it literally was just really alive. You know, and, you know, there were lots of great relationships, lots of great networks, we had some really nice stuff with the, the dice, you know, we, you know, kind of what they were these really sort of interesting alliances of, you know, they were, you know, a lot of their, like radical and separatists and stuff like that, and then we would ally on on particular things. And it was just a really thorough, really interesting time. You know, I got Monica go all over the place a little bit I got, I'm like, yeah, cuz I'm, cuz now but no, because it must have been when I was with Neil, because I married a separatist, who was who she was a refugee from Greenham common, you know, the other women from the UK came out, he will come out to New Zealand, because they feel about the nuclear stuff. And moral was on to them. And so I married her to give her residency. And, you know, was like this, it's very funny thing, because she, what she and her mates were like, they were serious separatists. And then we had this, this wedding, which are all in the only dress I could find. And the amount of marriage so let's celebrate was, who was who was a woman, she had no idea what was going on. But she was very clear, she knew very well, this was something going on. And, and we had, we had these great photos, where we did the traditional wedding parties, and then we had the alternative waiting sits with me and Neil and I'm worthy. And I think we took, I think, something like the dragon boat, I think somewhere, but um, you know, all that sort of stuff. And then we can do all that stuff about her getting citizenship. And they were very sad, because he was about 35, you know, and I was 20, or something. And there was this whole thing about, you know, why was I married someone who's older than me, and was quite handy, because we were able to say, my family didn't just didn't approve, therefore, they get my family right out of it. But because he was separate as I was leaving the house, and, you know, you have to do all this thing of all bottles or toothbrush, and all that sort of thing. And, you know, we we had to do these tests. So you know, and what sort of, you know, some of those in case we were asked those sort of questions, but as it turned out, you know, in New Zealand at that time, most of that was about keeping politician people out. So, you know, we were both wide. And like, you know, they were worried about, you know, they were like they thought it was a bit dodgy. But I don't think they thought that much about it. You know, she was sort of middle class, I was middle class. So it was it wasn't a big deal for them. [00:09:47] So what what year was this? [00:09:48] Oh, must have been 8384. Because when I [00:09:54] was with Neil, and [00:09:58] when I got divorced, [00:10:01] to come over here, because my father, my father found out about it and kind of went completely ballistic. And basically said, I had to get divorced before I could leave the country. So that was very roundabout, but I think kind of, I think the the is, this was this just amazing time to be involved, you know, and I thought it was a really powerful community. And it sort of worked for me. And there was no one until was always very, quite stratified, in terms of, you know, who was where, and social and political. And the unique guys, and, you know, was always quite stratified. And, you know, it was just a sort of, like, an interesting mix for me, you know, and learning a lot and, you know, kind of on particularly on border politics, because the after the tour, there was this big deal after the tour about the Maori activists sort of going well hang on, how come you spend all this time about setup, so that can you don't talk about, you know, I'm already here. And that was a big, you know, a lot of so that was a big, big deal. And, you know, kind of lot of winners rising and, you know, big fights and arguments, and I think move things around a lot, you know, yeah, [00:11:11] just taking it back to the 1970s. And I just want to kind of get an idea of what it was like, for a young gay person in Wellington, what, you know, what, what kind of things were on offer, you know, what did you do? How did you meet me? [00:11:30] I know, it's nothing I'm awful, really. So winded I [00:11:35] I was, yeah. salad, I got sexually active for you probably about 13 or 14. And it was all beats. And then we would the beats library when his library [00:11:52] was mostly if I think I kind of, and there was a sooner show by the town hall. [00:12:01] Coming when I think I might have gone the molecule near like, once or you know, and fruit and come back or something for long, for a long time. So and then I'm it may, you know, I got to know a few of you guys. Over a period of time, the visibility was like completely zero. Like I can remember the first time in I think it was about 77, the first time I ever saw to New Zealand guys on TV. And Robin DFW, I think Robin def was one of them. And you know, kind of just been amazed, amazed. And I think that's about 77 or 78. And it was this was memories, I got all those real. And I remember seeing, I think I could still see them on TV. And I remember, there was this elaborate shirt about how much I wanted to see it. But how I had to not let anybody know, I wanted to see it and was like, you know, maybe we could watch that. Or maybe we could watch something else. And you know, I don't think we I think we had a video. So it was just this thing. It was like things on TV. And I was desperate to watch it. And maybe my brother wanted to watch rugby or something like that. And I can't remember where it is how it ended up. But I remember that particularly by making civil servant and and then there was that place in that place on the corner of Cuba Street. And the select the red last lot, you know, the red light sort of? Yeah, yeah. So there was there. And there was a, there was a shop on the corner. Okay, catch up. And he had this under the table guy porn. Yeah. And, you know, it was like, you know, the satellite kind of, if you knew what a look it was, you know, kind of an end. And that was, I think that would have been time. So Bry maybe have been 1415 some other? Yeah. So it was all incredibly you know, incredibly surreptitious. Think of who else I'm in terms of, there was a film three, there was a guy had a bit of a relationship with his important three. And sort of, you know, it wasn't particularly, you know, kind of, sort of flamboyant, or anything like that. But I just wasn't interested, I wasn't interested in, you know, kind of, you know, in, in sport and stuff. And my father was very, like, kind of, I always remember sitting. So when I would went from marks to Scott sitting with him with the principle of Scots, and him saying, my father started all I know, he spends too much time with girls, you know, and the principle of life in the head isn't always looking at was that I will sort that out, you know, and, you know, so it was and, you know, so that's what, that's what the school even are there a lot of good teachers there, but I know that they'll get the time. Yeah, so I was that sort of a thing. So I came out when I was 18. [00:15:09] And so that, like I said, when I was at uni, so before, then, [00:15:15] you know, it was already closeted. I got done by cops couple of times, on beat, the beat one time sort of really badly, you know, not sort of beaten, but just, you know, like, you know, surrounded and yelled at for, you know, about how they're going to tell my parents all that, you know, how as well, but 15, I think. [00:15:35] And [00:15:37] so, [00:15:40] I can never remember the time, but I sort of tried to commit suicide at one point, and I think it was after that. And it was just weird. No, it was a weird later, you know, sort of fifth sixth and form was this weird time of like, you know, philosophy of pretend to be pretty clear what was going on, been through like not semi passive Presbyterians fairly full on, my dad was faithful. And so I went through a phase of trying to, you know, figure out what's going on out, see if I could fix it, and I couldn't do that. And [00:16:18] then drank, I drank a lot in those last couple years at school, and [00:16:27] finished up at school was one of those, you know, because I did scholarship and stuff like that. So like, I was drafted up for the number one scholarship presents II possible, definitely, we got scholarships or anything like that, and then went to summer grandmother died, I think, beginning of that year, or something of my last year at school. And so, I think she did a couple of thousand dollars or something. And I went to, like, three months trip, another school to Europe. And it was that that, you know, changed a lot. It was even though like, because I you know, even though London wasn't really, you know, it's of 19, it wasn't particularly open, it was just so much more open, you know, and want to go to San Francisco to Los Angeles, and just just this different sort of feel, you know, and I just came back, and I remember coming back and going to uni, seeing all the stuff going on. And these guys who I got to know, over the years, I was sort of saying to them, so my, I don't really want, you know, one, I don't like being like this, what am I going to do about and they're like, Oh, you know, because they're all older, closer to God and stuff like that. Another thing I wanted to do there, and then I met, this sort of starts to get into the uni stuff. And it all happened very suddenly, it all happened over, really over the end of the first term at uni. So like, I'm like the, you know, kind of us, you know, I was doing math double, you know, economics law degree gonna, you know, play, you're going to be a diplomat, and then you know, I think for me, there was this thing where I decided I didn't want to learn anymore. And that was on us. Now, that was first time I've ever said to my father, no, I'm not doing this. And, and that was the start of it. So I did that. And then over the course of that some holiday, or that of that holiday, that term holiday, I just sort of completely flipped. And so I went back the following term, you know, piece earrings, couple of badges, and never really, you know, I've been at first term with all my school friends, and really didn't see the match at all. After that was all my girlfriends and lesbian friends after that. And it went on from there. And then I think later on that year, must have been when the tourists are the two master Baden spring or something. So um, you know, so they might will come good Convo from that. And I, I started so lift, lift uni, and become a gardener. And, and really spent the next few years because I was the garden until I left New Zealand. So you know, really doing the works, and then doing all the politics stuff at, you know, at night and things like that. And, and I had this amazing boss who was, you know, call him and say, I think I've been arrested. So and, you know, because I've been going to a demo at lunchtime. And, and he was okay with that so eloquently. Right. And that was just, it was just how it developed, it was like, Come, you know, it really was a lot like coming home, and the politics just sort of unraveled, you know, before you were in the one of the linkages. And, and, and so I was down the track. So, you know, we all do different bits of it. So Neil and all of them were mostly were doing the student stuff. I was a lot involved started a lot of stuff from the community center on the switchboard. And really, we went from there, and the switchboard, there was a lot of this community center was a lot of people that was coming out. And you know, so you know, because services, that sort of age to talk to people is awesome. And you know, that people are hanging out there for a while and then hit off, you know, kind of wherever. And it was, and then as you know, with Phil and all the different people with the archive where we, you know, you know, Phil was the real driver behind all of that. And, you know, we weren't so much, you know, librarians, but it was more that, you know, it was interesting kind of history, history. And it was also, it was a place where, you know, you're getting all this amazing stuff from the US all of these, all of those journals and stuff about what was going on and politics and us in Canada. And, and it was, you know, just this amazing Ireland, and the UK. So, um, so that was it was real source of that, and, you know, place to talk about it. And, you know, the switchboard group was this amazing network, you know, did a lot of stuff together. [00:21:17] You know, you know, we'd go into training weekends, and you know, it was a really strong sort of group. And we all were very present, you know, we're all very possessive about the community center, and it was our sort of space and make it good and make it work for people. Yeah, so it was it was nice. And then then the two other, so the two things that were going on, so there was, so HIV was starting to happen. And then there was the politics starting to happen in terms of the law reform. And they both sort of, in a sense, unraveled a little bit differently so that the HIV stuff really was a bit through a calculus, which one, you know, so that was sort of the logical thing, new Thornton, thank you. He was a psychologist, and he was one of the people behind, you know, like, all the all of the ethical type stuff, with the switch from what about, you know, to counseling and their responsibilities. And he took, he took that sort of stuff very seriously. And then bill was the sort of the Logan was sort of like, such a strategic political sort of brands behind it. And they were right. There, kind of from a range of people who kind of we were just all part of making it sort of from, you know, kind of making it work. And in terms of the HIV stuff. Sorry, before we get on [00:22:41] with the with the switchboard, can you tell me just just a wee bit more about the switchboard? Like, what was it before? Because I think, you know, people growing up now would maybe not have an idea of the phone. [00:22:53] Yes. Oh, yeah. And I mean, I can't remember how. [00:22:58] So, really Loki, like, I think it would be the ad in the paper, two or three nights a week or something like that. And I think it was a chemical, how many nights was on it was on an evening thing. And, you know, three or four nights in an evening, and there was this tiny little room, like probably the size of a bathroom with a phone in it. So it was beside the community center. So you'd be, you know, you'd be sitting there and it was never, it was never, you know, constant thing. I mean, you know, kind of people, they were never willing to get cranky, you know, we didn't get crazy calls that we didn't get abuse calls, as I recall that much, you know, you know, they were not quite, you know, quite sure. The calls. And in a lot of, you know, a lot of first contact type calls, you know, we've met some of which would be people who, you know, come to the community center, and talk and all that sort of stuff, some of which people just you weren't taught what to talk to someone. And it was only did and was really just about listening, you know, because it was the creativity. So it was, you know, six, it wasn't about safe sex or anything like that. It was just about, you know, it's okay. You know, often it was about, you know, where do I go to meet someone, but a lot of it was just about, it's gonna be okay, you know? And, you know, yes, that's what I'm gay as well, all that sort of stuff, you and so it was for me, and this is how my parents are. So it was really, it was, you know, it was huge deal. [00:24:40] A lot of people that's been incredibly hard on, you know, trying to put myself back in that position, where if it wasn't necessarily that visible, if you didn't see people out on the streets, and if it was illegal, to actually have a good feeling about yourself. [00:24:55] Yeah, because there was nothing around, you know, there was no visibility. So, you know, in terms of, and that notion of, because my father was, you know, my, my father. So, you know, I came out the night I came out to him, he sort of said, Well, you know, that's it, then you obviously wasn't gonna, you know, you're not going to have a life. And, you know, I don't have any expectations of you anymore, and that sort of stuff. And my mother was, it was, you know, probably was my mother, because my mother said to me, or Lisa, grandparents did you know, so? You know, and I love my grandpa to my grandfather very much. And so, it was weird. Like, I never, I could never forget that, you know, I know, that changed over time. But I, I could never am here that, you know, and, you know, that was that sort of stuff. You know, wasn't that unusual, there's lots of responses, you know, there was nothing out there for anybody else to see. And so, you know, that was a huge deal. Even pumping up, we always used to think that there was no, the fact that someone rang, I took me three times, to go down the stairs, you know, to go there so far there. And we just always used to go and, you know, it's huge that you just called you know, and you didn't hang up, or most people will bring once and hang up the call again. So if you know, and, [00:26:20] you know, [00:26:24] I might or might not tell you the name, well, that sort of stuff. But of you know, so much of it was like, you know, it's probably going to be okay, you know, and you couldn't do it, you know, you couldn't you know, because it would have not even say stuff like that about parent, you know, you're just, you know, people are like, Oh, sure, you would never know how someone's parents might be or anything like that. So you could talk a little bit about how it was for, you know, a little bit about how it was for me, that I had friends like me as well. But um, you know, you know, it was really hard to, you know, you couldn't make promises to anyone, but what it was going to be like, you know, for them, today, we're in Wellington, you know, if their employer or you know, that went to Washington then because then a new way. And I think that's why things like, you know, unit ism is still you know, unit groups and stuff like that it was jet, it's that thing of escape, you know, you know, people come to a big city, they come somewhere different, and they have a license to do some different stuff, you know, and away from the surveillance. [00:27:24] So it was gay switchboard. I was at the kind of first port of call for people to want to like try Be [00:27:32] it turned into it, because [00:27:36] my memory is a little bit hazy on the sort of set. So I remember very some other guy coming. And I was figuring out we need to do something a new Thornton was very much power there. And the Logan was very much part of that. And Phil Parkinson was part of that, because he was getting all of the stuff from the US, you know. And Neil through because I think new work that went into hospital. So somehow that he was getting some sort of connection to that through some of the, because they then so we still start we I think, as I said, I think I support network was what the first thing we did. And it was really were starting to think about what what might we need to do, because I mean, I think we did some training on. And it was a it was the idea was it was a caring type thing. But the first thing that ended up happening, so it was when I was 21. So, Gary, pretty sure, Gary. So he came, my first practical experience was he came back from Sydney. very sick. And his parents with just awful, just terrible. So I came back to his parents with as his parents, and they were terrible. So I ended up you know, he was about my age. So I ended up sort of hanging out with him. So it was more like a and I ended up in a bit more lockout. So in Australia and Australia, we have a think we're in Cali, which is more like a friendship thing that I personal care type thing or health care thing. And he was he was thin. But he wasn't like super sick. I mean, it was it must have been if I was 21. I must have been 84, something like that. And I'm pretty sure so I went in hospital, they got the money. That was I think they were looking after stuff. But they wouldn't have been much around to do. And [00:29:29] yeah, so and it was mostly about us hanging out. And [00:29:36] what ended up so he ended up committing suicide. Yeah. Because his was damaging, you know, I mean, I think I was I went away. And if you commit suicide while I was away, and [00:29:51] and then I think that was [00:29:55] good, sounds good, a little bit hazy in terms of what was happening because most of the HIV stuff was actually had in Oakland, you know, that was where the AIDS, I always think of it as the AIDS trust, the first thing because bill was on that. And he on the first one and, and it was very much driven by voiceprint eight and those guys in, in, in Oakland, so and that was where my thought was happening, you know. [00:30:18] And so it was really [00:30:22] the politics was all playing out in Oakland, you know, around, you know, government and all that sort of stuff. And [00:30:29] so honestly, like, lost a little bit of, of track with it, because I got [00:30:34] I was putting, so then, so there was that was happening. And then there was the Lord from happening as well. And so, you know, kind of, I was pretty wasted by you know, by the end of all of that, you know, particularly the edge of it by Brian, Gary when he [00:30:50] died, because it was just [00:30:53] he was just like, notice my age, what sort of stuff? You know, [00:30:56] Yeah, I was gonna ask, I mean, as a 21 year old, how do you cope with, with not only his death, but also there's this this thing that that nobody knows? where it's coming from? Yeah, [00:31:10] me, I can still see those sort of, you know, there's conversations we had about, you know, what is this thing? And what are we going to do? And what's it going to do? And, and we just thought it was weird. We all we just knew, we just knew it was going to be terrible, probably because we're seeing this stuff in us. And just the sense of complete powerlessness. And how what, yeah, and it had, because even though I mean, I remember bill saying kind of really early on, because, you know, people saying, you know, Scarlett Wade, you know, he was he was serious chart and all that sort of stuff. And, and I remember him sort of saying, Oh, you know, this, so this has got, you know, sex and it's got blood, and it's got death and stuff. So we thought, you know, you know, and then we're in the middle of it all, you know, because that, you know, nothing was good. There was no sensor on the African stuff at all that stuff, you know, those high UT and all of that sort of thing. And this thing, it just changed, starting to change the way you think about sex, you know. And it's interesting now, just because we're very involved in advocacy around prep, and it's fascinating now, to hear young gay guys go. I've had sex for the first time ever, without thinking about HIV. So to me this, it's this huge circle, and, you know, the Yeah, but back in, it was just, you could just see this these clouds, you know, and you could see the way it was playing out. us. And so there was that. And there was, I mean, we didn't have the awareness around, you know, the US, right, you know, the politics of us playing out. And it wasn't the visit, you know, we weren't asking those sorts of things about our ransomware government that was very much, you know, discuss how we're going to help this guy, you know, and that notion of just, you know, this threat, that's a huge threat. [00:33:09] So how does that then feed into law reform? Because it's happening around the same time Islam? [00:33:14] Yeah, yeah. And [00:33:19] so this is where it starts getting a little bit tainted by, you know, hindsight and stuff around. Because I think we saw law reform, you know, we saw a, there's been, you know, it's pretty faithful for law reform, as an you know, that it done, you know, didn't like it beforehand, now, you know, they're really not gonna lie to us. And that was probably true. I mean, that was, you know, the Salvation Army with him, you know, that was the, you know, the line was, you know, you will just unleash this, you know, the sprint into this plague on us. [00:33:52] And so, I, [00:33:55] I just have these vision of all of these meetings in the, in the Dorian. These big sort of town hall meetings about strategy and things, and, yeah, Allison and Bill, were the big drivers of that sort of stuff, you know, we could take these lines, and we should take and, you know, my friend for a while, you know, sort of people about, you know, kind of what's the what's gonna, what's going to work. [00:34:20] You know, because we had, [00:34:22] Keith, hey, we had that repetition stuff. [00:34:27] And, you know, it was really like a, you know, that really seemed like our hearts and minds, you know, and, you know, there were not many politicians were stepping up, you know, and it was, [00:34:41] you know, it was very, it seemed very, very touching God. And, [00:34:47] and yet, in the middle of all of that, there was still, you know, the, you know, the, the, the whole coming out, you know, it was another, you know, so I think those things are sort of cycle, you know, you get a blast of a big catalyst and something and, you know, you get a few years of something out of that. And I think we will select the second last event by about 80, or 85, or something from from an earlier one. And so, you know, the energy, you know, energy, lot of young guys and women coming out, and uni, it's been a real hub of that [00:35:19] stuff, starting to see some of the schools as well, you know. [00:35:25] And it was where a lot of it because, you know, there was, remember all the, how cautious the teachers were, and how cautious the public servants were, and all that sort of stuff about getting involved and been seeing involved. And, you know, and it was any kind of those of us who were like, okay, you know, we can do that, you know, did that. And then again, there were a lot of people who were doing the stuff and behind because that was how quickly, [00:35:52] it's really interesting. You talk about the capitalist, I mean, that that kind of energy goes on for years later, because often, I hear people talking about 8586, law reform, that was, it just happened in those an epic time, not thinking that there were many activists in the 70s. And earlier, they were pushing for these these things to happen. [00:36:18] So we're necessarily gay activists, but there might have been activists in different that then it was some at some point, you know, like feminists who were able to become, you know, to talk about it, you know, in the late 70s, to talk more about being lesbians and then come out. And, you know, I think things converged a little bit as well. [00:36:34] So what do you think that the catalyst was for the energy in the mid 80s? What was what happened before then? [00:36:43] I'm not quite sure. I think, [00:36:46] I think it was a bit about land rights. And I think it was a bit about split the tour and stuff, I think there was, so many people were so affected by that. I mean, you know, particularly, you know, people like me, who'd never, you know, had, we've been on the wrong side of the law, and the Indian being in a, you know, I remember me, and all of these, all of us who lived in that further on the terrorist together, you know, in our thing, we're with the cops with veterans, and it was like, you know, the middle class kids, you know, and I think some of that you don't, you don't undo that. And, you know, some people went on got more and more radical, some people didn't, and didn't went off. And, you know, that was enough for them. But I think, you know, probably, they were enough to keep it going into and to keep pushing it of it. You know, and now we had a lot of energy, you know, we had a lot of energy, you know, that just because it was all new to us now, and we could just, and they've been so much creative stuff, when you think about the nuclear stuff, the the answer stuff, as well. And all of those, I've just, I was just looking at it the other day, someone else know, there's, there's a big demos around climate change here. And they've got the same stuff that we used to do around the dancers, wheelers, making this huge paper mache, a cranes and dead babies and all that sort of stuff, you know, there was this amazing creativity and this huge energy and people really passionate about it. And I think, you know, kind of that a lot of the same sort of people did the Lord for himself. Because there are a lot of time and political movements you don't know, where people were, we are just, you know, we're there. We're not making a big deal about queer stuff. We're just there, you know, with us, because I've have always been, you know, part of, you know, all of these different political marches, where, you know, we're all there. And we know that there's all these fans over here. And but you know, we're here because it's a union match, you know, and that, that, you know, I think we've always had that, in my experiences that that, that energy and creativity, you know, [00:38:57] there's a lot of power now. Yeah, [00:38:59] it seems as though in the mid 80s, the visibility just went through the roof. Yeah, [00:39:04] absolutely. Absolutely. And [00:39:08] just, [00:39:10] I wonder whether it was, like, has gotten from a member, the, you know, like, we were also very, very angry, you know, and we're sort of, I think, we're starting to be angry about that Chevy stuff, but not, you know, it hadn't hit about you know, of just that thing about not wanting to take it you know, cuz I can remember so new was new was diabolical, you know, new Castilla. So he's some Irish Catholic family. There's, the other people will have talked about it, you know, and if there's this, there's this, I can't remember, there's this photo around, but all, we all have this image of us head, we we had to, we had to almost drag him off this little old Salvation Army lady who was on, you know, who was clicking petitions, you know, and he was, he just, you know, just launched, you know, he would, he was just, you know, he really strict cut, you know, Catholic upbringing, all that sort of stuff, and he just sort of like erupted out of it, you know, and there's a lot of that, you know, kind of do a few, a few people here, we were just sort of keeping the background because we knew we could, we had to keep an eye on them, you know, and so so, you know, this, I think passion is a lot of it, you know, and let, and here's why it was particularly 8586 I'm not sure not sure. I mean, you know, it's that thing about why, you know, Pete, why do people decide it was the time to do it, you know, and whether it was about what was going on elsewhere? Because what was it here, here was about 85 I think it was awful. Australia, Australia and Sydney. Yeah, and, you know, kind of, it was a really big deal. And, you know, having lived here for a long time, I you know, the kind of the, I really understand the back and forth, you know, kind of thing about New Zealand and Australia, particularly, you know, kind of the gay thing. I mean, we know, we we very clear around, you know, how many New Zealand gamify here and how many New Zealand battery positive manner here. So, you know, we and, and how many, you know, I mean, come back and forth, you know, so it's, it's a very much a thing, and probably, you know, the, you know, the travel for me, it was like going to Europe and dying actually will let the world's not like Wellington, and you can do other stuff, you know, and if I hadn't got if I had just gone through a community, not sure that it would have been the same, you know, [00:41:27] so why why is it was suddenly such a drawcard for for for gay men from New Zealand? [00:41:35] I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think kind of, [00:41:40] for me, [00:41:42] I just knew I need to leave Wellington. And I was mostly thinking about going to Auckland, and then my best friend, Karen, she was living over here. I came here and it was a wow, you know, and [00:41:57] so I just went back and said, I'm going to go to Australia. And [00:42:02] I think there's lots of you know, I think, and also, it's easy, for a long time, you know, you could go back and forth, you know, it wasn't have to be a permanent thing. I just sort of think it's that, you know, kind of end to be. And for me, I wanted to be a little fish, I felt like, you know, I wanted to be a little fish something bigger, you know, and just so that was why, you know, the opening thing, but then just realizing how much more, you know, kind of possibilities were here. [00:42:30] Yeah. So better at five long, and he was actually used by both sides of the debate for Lauren from how did how did the pro Laura forms use use the topical aids, [00:42:47] it's really, I mean, it was really about [00:42:51] being able to meet, you know, to be able to reach people, you know, that hiding, all of this stuff was, you know, like, kind of, you know, we had the notion of, there was like a press or anything like that the notion of how you would reach people that, you know, basically, we had to reach people to talk to people about safe sex, and we couldn't do that now. And, you know, the, all of that stuff was illegal, you know, going out and beats up, because, you know, all that sort of stuff was some, you know, kind of, really hard to do. And I think, so what we started to get was alliances was the doctors who were going to you were saying, Well, obviously, you know, we've got to stop this thing. And this is how, and, you know, they weren't lawyers and things, but it was we're sort of saying, well, what's this is the big threat, and, you know, they they know that the implicit threat was to hitch sexual, you know, it was like, if you're not careful, this will escape from gay men into heterosexuals. And, you know, and I've always, I was thinking, I never had to have people, I've had bureaucrats Tell me here, that it in a minute, what's the deal? You know, the deal was, you know, we'll do you know, you, the objective is, we'll keep it, you know, we just have to keep it within the guys, you know, and then, and what they can, there's a term that they use in in epidemics around containment, something around that, but, you know, implicitly It was, like, you know, we just have to make sure it doesn't spread from from them in, you know, in access to countries from gaming to heterosexuals. And, you know, so the other side of the deal was, so we'll do stuff to help you sort it out, you know, and so that was where, you know, being, you know, kind of nothing, you know, like legalization, the notion of community control sort of services, the notion that we'd be the ones who do it, partly because they didn't want to be seen to be doing it, all of those deals were made, and they were implicitly about, you just look after it and don't let it into the sexual community. I think we knew that in a funny sort of way. And, you know, I don't think anyone would ever have articulated it, as you know, I'll set them but it was I will stand wasn't that long ago that every single Eurocrat told me that they were quite explicit about that being the, you know, they didn't grow up WM, you know, it was about that. Yeah. That was the object, you know, we contain it to the, to the game in and, you know, so in some weird sense, that was a success to them, [00:45:14] you know, also the tactics used by the kind of anti reformers, how did they try? And, [00:45:21] I mean, a lot of it was just, it was playing around with public opinion. [00:45:26] You know, they were they were using, HI, you know, they were using eight says, Yeah, this is what's happened, you know, this about, you know, kind of good, because the, so they're using, they're using six, they're using gaming on six, and that just somehow, that the laws would keep [00:45:44] keep what kept it all under control, you know, and [00:45:50] there's a petition, you know, I mean, kind of, that's the main thing that's, that's my head is repetition, you know, on it, because I know that there was also there's a lot of TV staff, and there was a lot of local lab act, local organizing by, you know, the, because you just have the sense of we're in the cities, and you just had the sense that, you know, it was it was, you know, like the cell Salvation Army, and, you know, bits of the National Party, all of these people were, you know, locally organizing against it. And, you know, kind of every so often we would get some sort of reminder that, you know, we were in a little bit naive thinking that, you know, what, you know, Wellington City, people thought was what everyone else thought, and we're all considered people that was, you know, it was often we get a reminder about that, just, you know, calling was nowhere near as good as now, but I'm just every so often they'd be a percentage, and you just go wow, you know, or, you know, it was the nice, that was the license that people had to say stuff that was just, you know, so righteous, you know, on TV and the politic politicians felt that they could, you know, that they could you know, that, you know, they were representing a heterosexual electronic. And so they could say, all of this sort of stuff was the last card down again. [00:47:01] Yeah. Do you have any memorable petition stories? [00:47:06] No, Neil, Neil and Neil, Neil is, that is the main one or the other. The other one was that box the boxes when they're delivered to Parliament, mmm, and, and, and just been so frustrated, because afterwards, someone told us that most of the boxes were empty, you know, and just having always regretting that, you know, someone didn't just kick a ball at them and knock them over or something, you know, but just, you know, the end of pattern and just knowing, you know, how much theatre had gone into it from them, you know, we did theater a lot as well and stuff, but just knowing all of that stuff, you know, [00:47:38] because we're there was a box pure electric wasn't [00:47:40] there? I think it was, it was like that. 90? Yeah, I think what they just seemed that there was this huge wall of them, you know, and, [00:47:47] and there was this whole thing of, you know, stacking them at all, and we were going insane, you know, with the cops, you know, we were gonna do that for the cops, you know, coming in between us a name, but just the way they they stepped it up into this whole thing about delivering it particular. I don't have many, I mean, I think those stickers we did, I always member, they always I always liked that it was a must have been the year of the, of the petition, because so we did this, these stickers that say, you know, these, you know, this, this house isn't, it was for the door to door collection of just sitting at this house doesn't get made to bigots, or something like that. And hello, and we did the, and now we had the cross for the red line through it. And just to drive people crazy, you know, I loved it, you know, can we, you know, we just put them up everywhere, you know. And that's the main thing. And then the only other thing is because I think probably the other dap, another one, that's something else you have got somebody with some, nothing new was fantastic. You know, so pink triangles. The other thing that was, you know, in the middle of all of this, and we it was again, it was like was a sort of thing that we give them was mostly given Young was mostly the person behind it all. And Phil to an extent, but every so often, we just sort of throw ourselves into the middle of it. And I remember this vision of, of Douglas Douglas Jenkins was my best friend in Academy, which I think was a cover photo for one of the Lord, you know, in that lower form time. And returning to a post to the new new did it and it was Douglas in a habit. It's a beautiful photo, I can get a big mustache and all this sort of stuff. And they do have a party history. And it just was amazing. And I think it was, I think I think it became a posters. And I can't remember what the caption was, but no pressure was became the front page of pink triangle as well. [00:49:43] In pink travel, that was a weekly [00:49:47] was monthly, I think. [00:49:50] When for years was amazing. Amazing. Yeah, in terms of, because it was where that, you know, so Philip, beginning all the stuff in the US and all the new stuff we're going to, and there was a lot, you know, idea of a greater, you know, kind of getting a lot of it was about local journalism as well, you know, and that's really well respected as a as a as a thing in general. And had a lot of come in how many, you know, coming was quite a big thing for a while, you know, and I think all through the 80s at least. Yeah. [00:50:27] And I've also heard you on game does he say? He was on a Plexus radio? Yeah. Yeah. So you kind of out there when you [00:50:34] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we did. So we set that up. And that was my gay VC was very much about the law firm that was about us getting out there. And the XS radio people were fantastic. Because I think it's Robin Nathan. So she was, she was the part of access radio, and she she trained us all up. And, you know, and we just used to, you know, we just rock out. And that does give us that just like I give us all this equipment or therapy go and we go on, you know, do interviews and record you know, and, and that that tunnel, remember, it assortment came over? [00:51:15] Must have been maybe 84. [00:51:18] And so we tried to we were trying, like we tried to we just wanted to do everything. And so, so we got stuck with it, we had this idea about our histories, you know, and so again, as came over, and, and we wouldn't tell your histories, you know, and we so we had all this stuff, and we'd go and do that. And fill with that. I think Phil was kind of in there, you know, we told too many things, you know, but it you know, we did a few and and not just you know, kind of it was that time where, you know, the China, China? Because something had happened. And it might have been, it was when I think you know, some of the other guys had died. And there was some sense of what a dawn, you know, because no one had ever talked to them about stuff. And so what kicked all that off? Yeah, maybe see what Scott because I'm pretty sure there's let's let's be ready, I think was there were two lesbian radio and ABC. And, you know, we're pretty good. But on, we're pretty busy at points, you know, and like, kind of every so often, you know, we had a really bad night the night before. And, you know, it's been half an hour playing, playing records. And, you know, I bet it was great. You know, and a lot of us some, you know, we kept it going for quite a long time. And, you know, and if it's what, you know, a lot of people listen to, you know, because it was, you know, radio was a thing, you know, kind of just too much to talk about, you know, so much to say. [00:52:42] And also when you think you know what other ways were there of getting your message out to a broad group of people. I mean, without the internet or cell phones or [00:52:51] anything, you know, and and, you know, TV, we could never do anything on TV, [00:52:56] and [00:52:59] the dominion, amen to that. My name's reconsider, because we used to have all these battles within about the ads for the switchboard with a sort from the truth decided that they weren't going to run the ad, because it had gay in it. [00:53:09] So with other words, that you could have used problems like a switchboard was [00:53:14] here, but we didn't want to, you know, [00:53:16] yeah, and, you know, just a plus one. And, you know, most of you know, it's about that big. And I was always amazed me that people found it, you know, but it was that thing that, you know, people were, you know, voracious to find something like that. And now, I remember just how, how important the phone book was, you know, and getting it right, and making sure it was, you know, we used to agonize over, you know, because we make it and all that sort of stuff, you know, and I think I recall, I think we had a few back and forth with total with the Franken whatever, telecom or whatever it is about, about about that, as well, I can't remember, I think that I think we did. Here. So, you know, we did not say there was just this huge energy. And, you know, we were just, it was hoping to get some to do this thing, you know, and, and, but then, you know, kind of people, you know, like, actually graduate people took over and, you know, my bill and Neil and people like that it was just, you know, it sounds like over their lives, you know, and particularly the, you know, the politics of it, and, you know, the AIDS trust, and all that sort of stuff became a big thing. And Martin, the law reform stuff, the law reform stuff around public history, and I kind of that was kind of a lot of that. So there was the so we, you know, saw the, the older, you know, like said the bills, and the Allison's and they were they were, they were the ones who would be, you know, kind of dealing with government and, you know, doing it and so we were the ones who were like kind of being routing or that sort of stuff, you know, and [00:54:52] and so this was the flesh on poverty. So [00:54:54] history, you know, that's where, and, you know, heaps of people Lyft route, you know, went through a tough and it was clo and Neil Anderson and [00:55:03] shine, and David Hindley, and [00:55:10] today with various times, you know, but they were though people on men, and we had another so there was another fellow up the road and South Street, and there was me, and Douglas, and David Henley's world. So first time, so let's start there. And we were both were also like, kind of in the middle of all that sort of stuff as well. But it was cool, because it was so close. Because I had this image of it being formed, when we won the matches where we do, we just had he influence and the whole industry, the whole house was full of helium balloons, and that we just all had to come a tie up and then take down to the mat to the to the match that were in one of the lower four months. And then all of those, you know, we were doing, please do our own stuff as well. So and Johnny sitting there, john, last john was at 53 as well. And he, he he took over the dances and organizing lots of stuff. So he took over as the student, the quiz student sort of officer from Neil. Neil anyway, so and he he was sort of doing us environmentalist, he was a Greenie sort of guy. And he, he used to scream from the posters for the dances. And, and the real screen printing was a real thing. And we just did I kind of his also got his posters at home. And so and they would post them up all over the place. And then the just not because because it was always I think out because I think because of that stuff with the answer The answer some thing. You know, we're not doing up stuff, you know, and we had the, you know, kind of, and just, just good luck being out there. Because I remember, this is some me and Hank is worth reminding me about have a fun. When we were doing graffiti on the floor, we used a lot we used to kind of the controller was everywhere, you know, and, and this is I used to have a big old car, and I'm sorry, Oxford or something. And then they've got to stop by the cops. I had a book full of things right, Hank, and we were just kind of kind of gently, you know, going, it was about one o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday. And we managed to walk away completely out of it, you know, we just come from spreading a big thing. And, and I was terrified, because, you know, Greg was constantly in, were terrified that they would open the boot. So we're just gonna talking away and chatting away and anxious for a good, you know, very chatty, and stuff like that. And they just really, you know, didn't open the book. [00:58:00] September 9 36, was when the asthma attacks happened on the the archives. Law Reform actually passed. Sorry, the federal law reform bill, part of it passed. Ninth of July 1986. [00:58:16] Yeah. So it was after? [00:58:18] Yeah, yeah. So can you recall what you were doing on the night that have passed? [00:58:24] As in the giant upstairs gallery? Yeah, yeah. And we were on one side of the questions that were on the other side. And I remember the freakiest thing was that I'm, in the middle of it was this kid I grown up with, you know, like, literally, since I've been about, you know, like, like, 1015 years, you know, we'd live live next door, and he was on the Christian side of this side. And it was just like, Fuck, you know, because after I came out, I was, you know, tracking all that sort of stuff. But was just, I'm trying to, I can't, I can just, I can see it, I can't remember what it felt like. And I think it was never sure, you know, it wasn't certain, we were really know, we didn't know that it was going to end. So it was intense, you know, and, you know, because not many of the politicians actually, you know, kind of made a big deal coming out. In a sense, there was a big gray in the middle, you know, like, kind of, there was the frameworks and the ones who are with, you know, who are clearly supportive ones and the other clearly opposition ones, but mostly, it was the ones in the middle. So it was, and you just knew what had been going on with them in terms of everyone ringing them and harassing them, and their electronics and all that sort of stuff. And everyone, we had this whole thing about everyone getting their family activated and talking to everybody they knew and stuff. So it was it was it was it was always close. You know, it was it was it was, it was never certain. So it was, it was just this amazing, sort of elation, you know, and it's sort of, it's one of the things I can just see, you know, I can just sort of see it. And [01:00:10] I was I was my daughter was about framework, really, you know, just about, you know, [01:00:15] she was just so amazing. And in the middle of all that, really? And she got she got, you know, and just, yeah, just absolutely revolution. Yeah. [01:00:28] Also thinking, I mean, seeing some of the clips with you saw from Neil on TV, and just the kind of shit that you guys were getting? Yeah. It must have taken to actually be out there in public, saying, This is who we are. And actually, we're going away. [01:00:46] Yeah, True. True, you know, kind of, yeah, but we were running on I know, we were running on, you know, years of you know, I mean, it probably is not surprising that it was new, you know, you know, years of that, you know, because I can I was 15 before I was allowed to not go to church every Sunday, you know, so, you know, and Neil's pants are pretty conservative Catholics, you know, so free to load, we had a lot of anger and energy to kind of like to work with. And so it was, it was really just that thing of, like a revelation, you know, kind of, somehow always, I always did really think about it, I, you know, I, you know, I always I like to call it calibration because that was what it felt like, you know, and, you know, and and it says it changed over, you know, kind of, over time where it became a little bit more corporate, and, you know, all that sort of stuff. But just, you know, always remember how we know, how we started off with it, you know, and how profound that was. And, you know, that's when I kind of have different ideas, you know, kind of, you know, when, you know, coming out as about, you know, going into first buy or, you know, middle school battle, that sort of stuff tonight, but don't, you know, as opposed to, you know, a place which is about, you know, assuming, you know, know who you are? And if you're not there. Yeah. And I think we know, because I mean, that was the end even, you know, because because there was that. Because, you know, from my perspective, you know, kind of economic liberation one, because, you know, no was about, you know, the other, the other wasn't, so it wasn't as explicit in the, in the, in the lower form stuff. You know, there was this thing about, you know, kind of gaming as consumers, you know, dawning on people that are, she doesn't spend money, if we let them kind of, you know, you know, out of the closets and stuff like that, and, and, you know, the fact that they really want in the end, this is what I believe in, and, you know, we saw, you know, we were the ones that, you know, kind of from, [01:02:49] I remember the really, really rich guys, [01:02:55] once you would go to a gym, you know, and that's all that sort of stuff, you know, and just the beginnings of all of that sort of stuff about you know, you know, you know, ourselves as commodities, and all that sort of thing, and, and all those things that no class and most of the things that people don't really talk about so much now, but it's that the notion that there might be another way. And that, you know, in many places is still not as you know, that's, that's still there, but it's just submerged under, you know, and as a commodity, you know, yeah. And then, you know, what, just, but also the things that, I mean, that's, that's, that's a harsh thing about it, but the thing that I love, I never get tired of, you know, all this stuff around gay marriage, even though, you know, the whole gay marriage thing, I've got a whole set of ideas about the notion that every time I see one of those photos of you know, a 97 year old lesbian, with her 96 year old partner has been together for 17 years. And, and the notion that, you know, kind of in the 80s, you know, it was very common for people, obviously, these guys can cut manager relationship, and you know, that, that was a part of the whole thing was, you know, they can't do that. So they'll just this little be out of control, and just the fact that you never hear that anymore, you know, and, you know, whatever I think about, again, is about that's one of the things that it's done, you know, and it's changed, what being a young gay man is in terms of, you know, thinking about what, what, you know, what your life might be, you know, and I'm constantly being guys who are like, you know, kind of, what can I do that, and, you know, like, who completely have the same expectations about it, or, you know, not not much awareness about where I came from. But, you know, it's a fantastic thing to see, you know, [01:04:43] website, Chris Lee, that I'm incredibly grateful for people like yourself from Bill and Allison, Lori, and all of all the [01:04:51] Linda, we always talk about elephant. [01:04:56] In Neil, and I'm just, you know, so thank for for the energy that you will put him because, you know, I've certainly had a busy life for that. And it's also lovely to I mean, my first introduction to Neil Castillo was actually when I was photographing the AIDS Memorial collections. And yeah, and so it's really lovely now to be able to kind of trace back and hear about them and hear about some of the stuff that he's done and see him on film. And you know, that they're not forgotten. [01:05:28] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cuz he's, I'm a quote from here as well. So he's done. He's done a few different places. I don't know about London. But yeah, you know, that, you know, that the, the notion of being touched by amazing people, you know, and that's why it's as simple. The older I get, the more important as people are, to me, just to sort of be around a bit. And [01:05:52] yeah, so that's nice. Yeah. [01:05:55] We've just stopped and started the recorder again, and you were saying, when we went recording, that you'd like to comment on, on how people change over time, I [01:06:06] think one of the things I think, to that, I think often we unfair on on our parents, you know, and in terms of how they change, and it was pretty, a lot change with my parents. And the interesting thing for me was quite a lot of what happened after I left, so. So Mum, I mean, I was was very open with him and what he was doing, and didn't want to talk about it, but it was always kind of was would listen about it and things. And gradually, she got more and more involved in it to the point where so she was the go to go to Mother, you know, for when people's mothers wanted to talk to someone, you know, and [01:06:49] she did, she did it a lot, you know, and then it [01:06:56] and it sort of developed to the point we're, she so I am actually positive. And I sir converted in 94. And I told them in 95. And so she became a bit of a go to for around HIV as well for for parents to and you know, this was all here, you know, kind of, you know, we were, you know, kind of while I was there, at seven, I suddenly got ended up getting out of the, the search world peace because it was so much else going on. But it was a was a big deal, you know, kind of knowing that and hearing other people talk about her, you know, having you know that they sort of had independent relationships with her about this stuff. And, you know, Bill, you know, kind of knew her and things as well. And the other thing I thought was that always kind of remembered is so dad. [01:07:54] You know, what's a life richer, and our church was dangerous on the tears. And [01:08:00] there's, they have all these stories. I remember, you know, they've had ministers for years. And, you know, he started off really tormented about all that, but you know, gradually, you know, which is right around there. And the thing I remember, it wasn't till ages later that I met one of the young, like sort of junior priests to be corn. And she told me the story about how dad had gone. So they have a rainbow church. So they, you know, ganas were Christians meet the. And so she told me the story about how dad had gone, and, you know, sat down and talked with them about what it was like having a gay son. And he never told me. And, you know, this would have been in the 90s. You know, and, you know, and how profound it was for him and stuff like that, because, you know, he's, you know, my dad was a very serious front end guy. And, and I just, I was always startled on it, you know, that it was just this thing he did. And they they were very, they were both I think they will do the they call it the supper for the gannets. Christian think that was, you know, yeah. So, so where they came from, and where they ended up, you know, I think was always quite profound. And it's, it's a, you know, it's a very personal thing for me, you know, because it's my life, you know, that's, it doesn't really fit in with other people's, but it was that notion of just where, you know, there came such a long way. And, you know, it's not something that I take the responsible, you know, you know, I might have helped the ones get started, but I'm just where they ended up and, you know, my sister now, you know, he's an arrow at the church and she's the same, you know, so I just think, you know, the, it's about that, you know, that the it's about all you know, it's not just a individual thing, it's, you know, it impacts all of us and it changes all of us. Yeah.

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