Queer Objects

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride in z.com. [00:00:06] Everyone, welcome to queer objects. Thank you all so much for coming today. My name is well, I'm a history student up at Victoria University and I'm so chuffed to have the opportunity to introduce you all to the most wonderful and probably most gay historian and sociologist and outside on this deal and Chris braco. Chris hails from done Eden, where he is a professor in gender studies at the University of Otago. He's written several beautiful and significant books, including the absolutely groundbreaking mate some love is the history of getting New Zealand. That book in particular is incredibly special to me personally, as I'm sure I'm not the only queer history kid and out Sierra, who would tell you that stumbling across mates and lovers is what made me realize that doing queer history is possible in New Zealand. So it's my absolute present pleasure and something of a wild dream to be able to sit beside you Chris today and discuss with you your newest book. We're objects, Chris co edited quick objects with Judith call out. And if you haven't bought a copy yet, you absolutely must do so there will be books for sale at the end, with Ollie over there at the back. And if you listen really closely, we're going to ask the quiz question at the very end of the, of the talking to her, and whoever answers the fastest and most correct will get a free copy of the book. So Ooh, pay attention. So, quick objects is the most wonderful collection of over 60 objects, examining the material culture of queer history. It features objects from all across the globe, including a good chunk from here down under. It considers histories that are intimate and histories that speak to state power, hilarious histories and sorrowful histories and covers everything from Bill those two dogs. Today we're going to hear from Chris about queer objects, both the book and some objects from tapas collections on the table, but Lightning, thanks to curators Claire and Steve. And then I'll ask him some questions, you'll will get the chance to ask him some questions. And then we'll go on a tour around to papa to visit some of the query objects in person. And I think that's all I have to say. So please join me in welcoming Chris Brikho. [00:02:25] Hey, thanks. Well, that's really really nice. No one's ever given me such a lovely introduction. [00:02:30] That's really great. Hey, I'm just going to talk a little bit about some of the objects and the book. I'm going to talk particularly about the idea about what a query object is or what makes one or doesn't make one perhaps. There are no pictures of dildos, but the pictures of dogs give you a little weeny taster. Okay, so when we were putting together this collection, which was actually Judith CalArts idea, originally I had wanted to write about the makeup box, which will is going to meet a little bit later. And in the context of another book, but it was seemed to be in the wrong time period. So Judah said, Oh, well, why not? Let's just do a book on queer objects. So that's how it happened. It was out of a kind of a chapter that doesn't quite work somewhere else. I'm really glad that happened. because it allowed us to actually really start to explore queer material culture in a way that I hadn't sort of thought of doing before. Before that, so really, Judas should be here to taking a bow for coming up with the idea. As we were working through we, we invited some contributors we had other people find out about the project and approach us was something they wanted to write about. We found that there were almost three kind of categories of objects, those that could be seen to be obviously queer. Those that were queer incision circumstances, and those that don't seem obvious at all. But actually, when you think a bit more carefully and look harder, you realize do very much into queer lives. So one of the things I'm hoping that you guys do when you go home is have a look at stuff in your house and have another think about whether it might be queer or not. And if it isn't, see if you can put it to a query use. And I'm not going to suggest what that might be a donations for that. So this first, this first slide here is taken by my partner Jeffrey Vaughn, who came with me to Adelaide A few years ago, then we photograph the Pride Parade. So Pride parade in the things in it, which we don't necessarily look at terribly closely, are objects that kind of have a very much query business. So the rain bonus, I was going to say RAINBOW FLAME, but it's not always a flag, in this case of banner, Rainbow hat. Who thinks the rainbow hits kind of cool One sews, maybe a line and rainbow hits could be an idea. And again, the kind of other kind of paraphernalia rainbow colored balloons. The guy on the left, he's sort of looking a bit sort of nervously towards the camera, but these kind of props, you know, they're kind of obviously queer in a queer kind of context, aza buttons and badges. Now I know there's at least one badge in the audience today. A really cool little pink triangle one. This is a selection of pages from one of the US collections. One of the things about the book is that we draw quite heavily from Australia and New Zealand but we're also drawing from collections of objects and personal objects and a range of different countries. So just off the top of my head, obviously New Zealand, Australia, Thailand, Japan. In the US, the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, and Poland, I think is pretty much the geographical spread. So, again, some fairly obvious kind of objects, but that speaks very much to lesbian and gay politics. And this case coming out of the US might be slightly less obvious, but one of my very, very favorite things which is on the back of the book as Marcus Bunyan's leather jacket. Now, this jacket started its life in Melbourne. Marcus was an immigrant to Melbourne moved there from the UK and bought this jacket and a secondhand shop that necessarily have a quiet provenance, but the more he owned it, the more he added to it to make it a very much a personal kind of document if you like. So he ended on the flag. into his Britishness, the pink triangle which I'm going to show you in closer detail in just a moment. The lyrics from a song or bondage Up yours. The publisher was very weary of this. Does anyone know the song is a feminist punk song? It's really cool. Go on Google and have a bit of a listen. And then about three people said, Oh, no, no, he's not putting gratuitous swearing on the jacket. It's actually a song. [00:07:30] A little rainbow thing from Greenpeace and the anarchist kind of symbolism as well. Input and fruit personal kind of references on the back. So this is something that Mark has made clear. It is really actually a pretty neat thing. Here's Marcus wearing it. On the left. Marcus is also a photographer, something he continues today. Marcus still lives in Melbourne. And we hit the sense of the object and its context. I could have I could have shown you a lot more images of Max, but I didn't want to be terribly intuitive. So here's just one of him wearing the jacket. We're in the Jesus and Mary Chain t shirt underneath. And a close up on the right of the slogans silence is the voice of complicity on the pink triangle, which of course Marcus was personalizing this in the early 90s. The pink triangle was very common, is a pride symbol in the 1980s in particular 80s into the 90s. Silence is the voice of complicity is a Marcus take on the ACT UP slogan. [00:08:43] Silence [00:08:45] equals death. Yeah. [00:08:50] This here is an incredibly personal intimate object. What I want to do now is just to talk a bit about domicile city because as I mentioned before, when I lived To you looking through your vegetable rake or other places at home for queer things, the lives that we live in a domestic setting are really important I think in terms of the the way that things take on meaning for us often in our most intimate kind of spheres behind. Okay, so this here is a small artwork out of a diary from two women who lived together in Vermont in the early 19th century. And the the the embroidered things around the edges are woven out of the here. And you can notice at the bottom, the love heart of the braiding through the middle. So this is a pair of silhouettes of two women charity and Sylvia, about whom Rachel hope Cleves has written the most amazing books called charity and Sylvia and early marriage in America. And this is something they created for themselves to celebrate the relationship. And the enduring nature of it and indeed bit relationship carried into one on to one of the women died. So something incredibly personal moving from a public politics back in time to a more personal one. Right audience participation Who is this woman? [00:10:26] sort of close ish? Nope. [00:10:30] Yes, it is as Radcliffe Hall. And who here and her partner in a trial bridges dogs, who's familiar slightly with the book well of loneliness or knows of well of loneliness from 1920 as one of the most famous books and the lesbian literary scene was in 1928, who knows that way before noon, a trial bridge breed dash ones They did they were very kind of presentation breeders The problem was they came to adore the dogs too much and they couldn't be at a part of them so that you ended up with rather a lot. So if you think about lesbian women and gay men in the pits and you can think back to kind of make the fall and her vast collection of ditions What's the object here? Is that the digital and or is it the Is it the photograph? I'm not quite sure this chapter by hiker Bauer, who's a bit beacon London started off being about the photographs but ended up being more about dogs and it's called query adults. says I am a title that the publisher wasn't sure of. But But Hi, can I really be the light so we stuck with it pretty much. What do we have inside our house? This is the first of a whole lot of slides. I'm only going to show you a couple from a Christchurch man called David Wilder us really central to my book is Southern mean His friends appear and make some lovers to some extent. David had a little Garret fled in Christchurch opposite hagley Park in the 1950s and 60s and he filled it full of tasteful objects. So who thinks they kind of tasteful in the way they kind of arranged the house? Sort of. I mean, I actually think like the $5 files from the warehouse looks quite good on top of the shelf next to the giraffe. It's it kind of works quite well. So think about the way we organize our houses and there's nothing particularly queer about their kind of men or fat radio gram or that Greek bars or maybe there is I'm going to talk briefly about Greek pottery in just a little while. [00:12:47] We can't not really can you [00:12:51] library so library for the box. The titles that a p here are things like cactus gardening container, you know, gardening and continue Pain isn't pots and all of that kind of stuff. But David actually had a very, very big collection of gay books. And I know this because I have his diary which has a list of them in it. So for a man in Christchurch in the 1950s, and 60s somehow getting hold of gay books, through customs, what men often did, is that they would take materials offered to them by ship stewards, and like as stewards it's smuggle things and then the cabin luggage because it got past the senses. So there are ways of getting hold of these things in the middle of the 20th century, and they ports gave huge meaning to the way that people understood their intimate lives. His David and his pajamas with the radio grand. We can't not talk about clothes. We're going to come back to close with this giant Idris which is the most camping extravagant thing you've ever seen. He's saying we'll have it up on the screen so you can see it in more detail. Okay, I want to talk to To finish with ambiguous objects. I got this several years ago during an election campaign. Is it a queer object? So what would make this a queer object? Yeah. So I bought the boys one and the girls one. And just as I was framing up the introduction for this book, I thought, I'm going to go back and have another look at that bitch, because that's an example of something that may or may not be in some circumstances it isn't. The first time I saw this though, I thought this seems very queer to me. Does anyone else have the same kind of thought that the moment you see it you could see it being worn in a way that actually queers the pitch in terms of how clothing and adornment signifies sexuality? Right is this query object this particular A make of portable record player was the make of player that the women and elites least been circle use during the 1960s. And it's the subject of a really interesting chapter written by Allison Oram, who's a very well known British lesbian historian. And Alison writes about the ways in which women would take this from from house to house and set it up. And it was a central part of the lesbian party at a time when many lesbian women in this part of England didn't want to go to bars. And so it was very central to the lesbian society that was built up in the Leeds and Manchester areas during that time in British history. And so women would dance to the music of this portable record player. And this is slightly cheating because this father is he from the gateways Club, which is a very well known least been club. I've kind of segue from the record player, but I wanted a picture of woman dancing So here it is. The image on the right comes out of arena, which was a lesbian magazine from the same part of, of the UK. So, the record player evokes music evokes dancing, it evokes that kind of feeling that you have when you hear that kind of, does anyone remember these and yet, you'd have a stack of records on the arm would fall back and they'd be plunk as the new record would go on. And then it would start playing. So this is kind of really nice kind of feeling to it, too. And of course, the record player could be moved from place to place. This fitted in with profound changes in British society, increasing mobility of women, the motorbike, which this was small enough to be carried on in a motor car, so it tells you the biggest story too. So what might look like one specific little thing has a much bigger kind of tale to tell. And so I'm just going to finish with three more slides. And talk a little bit about the significance of history in the earlier scene. So going back beyond New Zealand, in this case, who has this historical figure? CFO, wise, CFO important? [00:17:21] Yeah, she's a massively important figure, at least in history right now. Does anyone know when she lived? [00:17:30] That 700 to 900? Somewhere in there, BC. [00:17:33] Yep. And it's pretty much what I've got. Yeah. It's a little bit slightly unclear because the records are, but Yep, somewhere somewhere at times as someone who's a touchstone. Here's a portion of HIPAA pirates. And I discovered that who papayas are poems, some of them we use to read mummies. So it was only later on during kind of investigation of mummified remains that who poetry which talks of love for women and As well as for me in her intimate life appears to be somewhat ambiguous. [00:18:06] But that's not a bad thing. [00:18:10] Who is who does St. Eugenia a much less known historical figure than sefo St. Eugenia died about 258 ad so somewhat after sefo did so she lived in Alexandria she don't mail a tie and cut her hair short in order to seek adventure and gain independence. She called herself up genius was tried and caught with her father was the judge, which puts me in mind of that fantastic Barbra Streisand film, where she appears in court and her father as the judge was called I'm sitting here trying to remember determined versus probably one of the best Barbra Streisand films you've ever said. What's up, Doc? As to thank you. Sorry, slight division. So Eugenia when she appeared in court, as a male figure revealed her breast and revealed her original identity to her father, who was the judge. And in a really interesting chapter by Robert Mills, Robert suggests that in many ways, she can be seen as a genderqueer figure whose identity comes and goes, flexes and wanes through a number of kind of artistic representations. Mills, Jesus tells us something interesting about the fluidity of gender and medieval times and met ideas about independence were so closely tied to masculinity and certain forms of religiosity were so closely tied to masculinity, that women who sought them was seen as masculine, but actually this created Susan kind of space for degrees of ambiguity. So moving off your Genie onto my onto my final slide. This is an unashamed segue to papa. Because here we have. So who have a hold of these dolls represent? they ever taught. There's so recognizable as the top ones like does anyone think this doesn't look like the top ones? I can't remember how I found them. Stephanie and Claire might be able to say a little bit about them. I understand that not a lot is known about the Providence that only makes them more fascinating. But if anyone can kind of create any of us out of wall and make us look really kind of like ourselves, I think that's actually, you know, pretty good testament to their artistic creativity, don't you think? Okay, on that note, then of the top twins, I'm going to hand over to Well, I'm going to look at these fabulous things. [00:20:52] Listen, Thank you, Chris. You want to join [00:21:01] Can you give me at the back? Is this microphone? Cool? Okay, thank you. Listen. Thank you, Chris. So we're also super lucky because we've got a whole bunch of IRL objects here from two puffers storerooms brought for you here today so you can have a closer look at them, which is super awesome. The first one though, unfortunately, we don't actually have in real life I should have said that first that made it set it up differently, but this one so the first thing that we're going to talk about today is the Evergreen colleges, the Evergreen panels. So these were made by a trans woman named Chrissy Toko. She was a well known claim based in Wellington, who from 1984 to 1999, ran a late night coffee lounge called the Evergreen. There was open to the early hours of the morning and it boasted the best best cheese toasties in town. It was known as a safe space frequented by queer and especially trans people and Chrissy is very fondly remembered by people for her warmth and love. Although in a lot of the interviews I've done with people, it's clear she also wasn't afraid of tough love. And many of the older queens who I've talked to chocolate to me recalling times when she bought them from the coffee lounge for being a bit to your Addy. The evergreen was a space that facilitated community building, which was an essential prerequisite to community organizing, allowing the space for like minded people to meet, discuss ideas, plan protests and get organized between 1986 and 1989. The evergreen was an official gay and lesbian community dropping center, and after 11pm it became a drop in center for sex workers. And so on the wall of the Evergreen Christy had these fantastic collages. Some of them include photographs from back in the 1960s and 70s. And she continued to make to make them all the way until she died in 2002. The collages feature Chris's friends, family, acquaintances, business cards and newspaper clippings. And I think what I love most about them is I think A lot of queer history is kind of seen as as being full of silence or shame or sadness. But actually, when you look at these collages, the old Christian will have friends that are having so much fun and that being young and proud and they're just having a good time and they're with their family and their community. And I think it is a really wonderful way of showing that actually, you know, just because something happened before Law Reform or before marriage equality or whatever that history that wasn't hasn't hasn't always been silent. It's been full of laughter as well. So those I think are really special. Do you have anything you want to add on? [00:23:39] Does anyone go via the Evergreen? Does anyone remember the Evergreen obviously once. [00:23:46] Any memories, you always go pay $3. You are going to cover [00:23:51] coffee or tea? [00:23:55] Yes or Milo [00:24:01] Right next. [00:24:04] Next only have so before I talk to you about this object, which is a pink police hat, I need to talk to you about Carmen. Who does anyone not know? No. Who knows who communism was put their hand up? They don't know. Okay, most of you did. Just for those who don't. Carmen was probably the most famous clean living in Altoona, Iowa during the 20th century. She was a business owner Performa one time mayoral candidate activist sex worker, who was always in the headlines and headlines for her antics. She owned several coffee lounges in Wellington through the 1970s, including her most famous Commons international coffee lounge. Through the coffee lounge. She like Chrissy facilitated community building provided other queens with employment in an era of rampant anti trans discrimination. But this coffee lounge wasn't your usual. Upstairs there was a suite of bedrooms which acted as a brothel and Carmen famously used to say that all the tea and coffee and sandwiches were downstairs, but the sweets are all upstairs. Because of Commons notoriety. She was often targeted by the police, who often would try and trick her and her staff into six so that they could make an arrest and approach practice known as entrapment. I won't get into all the horrible details but police abuse of Queens was horrific and was incredibly commonplace. Common recognizing this sought to work with the police in order to get them to lay off herself and other queens. And she would sometimes take queens out to the police college and put her in order to give talks. As a result of this and I think a healthy does have Commons famous charm. She managed to develop a more positive relationship with the police and it was so positive in fact, that Vice Squad former vice squad to take the trivium morally gifted this customized police helmet to comment on his 70th birthday. So he painted it pink he put some feather boas on there I believe, which has since come off, but Joel that and on the inside he has written two times aka TDI, Happy 70 of the day and Thanks for the memories, former detective traveler who Morley aka T, wham, along with his police number, and dated seventh September 2006, Wellington, New Zealand. So I don't think it's appropriate to talk about this object without recognizing that police abuse of motor has actually continued to get worse over the years. And that despite painting rainbows on cop cars, diversity in itself is not enough and police abuse of rainbow communities continues to happen. But I think that in the context of continuing tensions, plenty between police and queer communities, the helmet does represent an instance of a very unlikely friendship. And I think it speaks to the power of queer resilience in the face of brutality and resistance to brutality that a friendship was even able to come out of it. Much to think on mixology, unless you had anything to add All right now we move on to this beautiful game headdress. This was won by drag artist Tony Roget with Jose, who was known will commonly as Frankie or Frankland. It was used while he performed with his friends and fellow drag queen Johnny cross Gary and who by the way has an incredible series of photographic albums which you should check out you can I'll tell you to get in contact with sorted out if you want to look at them because they're stunning. On run line, online, the online run line. They're online. Anyway, Frankie regularly headlined at places like Commons, one of Commons other establishments which was called the balcony, which is where the now defunct Central Library used to be on the corner by the police station. Frankie made a whole heap of his own costumes out of things like fake pals and plastic jewelry. And I think as it would have been amazing to see something like this impressive And oh, maybe can we jangle it? Are you able to go? No, no, no. Is that rude to ask? [00:28:08] Can you hear that? beautifully gay? [00:28:14] I don't really have an awful lot to say about it. I think it's pretty obvious how clear this is. I think also but I do think it does say a lot that I mean, to make something so stunning out of virtually nothing. We'll let these kind of fake plastic bits to make you sell the crown to adult on your kid as something of a reclamation of power during the you know, homophobic time. So I think it's as much as it's also fun. I think it's also really powerful and important. So that's that. Oh, this is really cool. The year is 1985. The debate over homosexual law reform the bill which would decriminalize homosexuality has been growing louder and louder. The whole nation is divided worlds are colliding horrible people like members Parliament Norman John's are telling gay people to go back to the sewers where you came from, while queer people are fighting for their lives on the streets. During the debate, opponents Law Reform organized a nationwide petition claiming that they had over 800,000 signatures. They organized a big ceremony to deliver the petition to the steps of parliament on the 25th of September 1985. And it was a rally that was so vitriolic and nationalistic that many onlookers likened it to a Nazi Nuremberg rally. They contained the petition with a 91 boxes, creating quite the display. However, it was found that some of the boxes were empty. The petition seats contain the fictitious names including being signed by one Mickey Mouse signatures by children and several repeat signatures. So this plaque had was made by gay activist Hugh young, who along with other counter protesters at the petition, presentation on the day sought to mark the petition and point out how false it was. The sign of course, points to the fact that many of the signatures were repeated hints. I signed 27 times Parliament rejected the petition and by the following year homosexual law reform was passed. Yay. Cool. Do you have anything that? [00:30:16] No. [00:30:18] I mean, yeah, that there are photos that are quite sort of scary of that event with rows of the New Zealand flag sessions that scene for God country and family as well as the big boxes of petitions. Was anyone there because they were I know that you Roger tell what was it like? It was quite was quite very chaotic and [00:30:39] the folders organized thing up on the steps of Parliament and on the front, [00:30:44] forecourt there. And then there were barriers along another line of placement I think along that side, and behind the policeman was Fran wild standing on a box shouting at them and, and lots of people with banners and things of booing and hissing and that sort of thing. So they will In a very big supportive crowd, I think petition, but we'll send you a very vocal crowd against that. And, and there are lots of Yeah, there's lots of young people, please. We're taking people away who [00:31:10] were leaping over the bear over the barriers and trying to disrupt the [00:31:13] presentation. So it was quite a, it's quite a fraught scene. And let's see salvia. [00:31:20] Recall, one of the other MP puppies involved Jeff, Jeff Bray Brock, a Labour MP, who was who was one of the leading campaigners against it. I think he died a little while ago and they had and they had on the radio had recordings of him quite openly admitting that you've got it completely wrong and it was all and it was all there was there was no apology whatsoever. But, but sort of, Oh, well, you know, it hasn't turned out like we feared sort of things. [00:31:55] One more Timo Second, the last one So this rugby ball was signed by the crazy knights and Ponsonby heroes rugby teams in 1998 when they played New Zealand's first gay interprovincial rugby game at the rugby league park right here in Newtown. welcome here. But you know what's really sweet is that the Knights presented this bowl to one of the staunchest supporters after the match. Allen brace girdle who threw up flew up from Christchurch for every game in 1998. That's cute. The Crazy Nights founded by Dean Knight were the first gay rugby team to be formed in New Zealand. The Knights included players from all walks of life, including drag queens and a future minister of sport and finance Grant Robertson Grant Robertson signature is actually on the ball as his partner's elf kawatte very cute. They met on the field and with joined in civil union, and 2009. The crazy Knights aim was to provide a safe queer friendly environment for gaming To play rugby. At the time, Dean Knight noted that if it was a perfect world, we wouldn't need a gay rugby team. Everyone would simply be able to be themselves and be honest about their sexuality. I think it's a really lovely instance of querying something within New Zealand culture that is typically associated with the most masculine form of heterosexuality. Although I don't really know how straight all that thigh groping is, but [00:33:26] whatever. [00:33:28] Alrighty, last of G. So this is also really interesting in 2008. In New Zealand put on special flights for people who wanted to attend the Sydney gay and lesbian Mardi Gras. It was called the pink flight. Anyone gone it? No, it was cool. It was specifically marketed at the queer community so y'all missed out on the flight. There were drag queen performances, pink cocktails and cabaret performed by the crew. Maybe their next safety video Performance audits Mika was given this pink in New Zealand bag when he went on a pink flight to Sydney. And so to me, is kind of fun is this object scenes? I think this object can actually be used to spark some pretty serious questions about the state of politics who benefits from a New Zealand's promotion of a gay friendly image? What are the working conditions for queer people in New Zealand? Like, they were okay with drag queen performance on a pink flight. But there have been repeated claims that they are refusing to hire a trans woman as flight attendants. Even when the woman in question well, overqualified. What is pinkwashing doing to our communities? And with that, [00:34:41] think about it. [00:34:45] And on that note, I think it's time to go back to you Chris, unless you have anything extra you want to say. [00:34:51] There's no way I can compete with me a bit. [00:34:57] Was Thank you, Chris. Okay. I have some pre prepared questions for the guys. Not this time. Oh, very so who's who's read the book or any? [00:35:12] People? [00:35:15] Okay, awesome. Well, if you read the book, you'd know that there are a lot of photographs of authors from the younger days scattered throughout it. And I think it's a really lovely way to kind of show the sense of like ownership and excitement that people clearly felt as they were writing their pieces within within the book. And we'll kind of linking between past and present. So I wanted what was your motivation to include these old authors? [00:35:43] I guess a couple of things people sometimes just sent them in and I kind of grabbed them and said, this is going to put that in there. But also, I really like that idea of the personal kind of stories of objects and the way that they are really hooked into people's own lives. And so Being able to have a photograph of yourself and your younger incarnation gives you a sense it gives the gives the reader a sense of that time and place and gives them connection to the person who's there. So for instance, one of my favorite chapters as met cooks, chapter on the telephone. And he talks about the way in which the phone enabled queer community through such things as phones, support lines, phone trees, the way that political groups would use phone trees in order to connect members run campaigns. He talks about himself as a 16 year old rich shy boy in London plucking up the courage to dial that number on the phone, you know, ring a phone line and talk to what he saw was a very worldly gay man miles away at a kind of a switchboard. So we we think now about the smartphone is a fun and there's a chapter on there, but the way that Matt zone read personal kind of tests have many talks about the way in which the phone, the old sort of the dial on and handle was really pivotal to his own, you know, self development. So that tells the story really, there were some authors, I would love to have had photographs from, but they couldn't be armed with it. Also, I mean, if anyone hasn't seen the book is a little bit of a sales pitch on how to do this. What we tried to do is to get chapters which were really readable by a non academic audience. So there are some which are a bit denser than others, but we try to really wave personal stories through so they're chapters they're, you know, they're not kind of high theory or anything like that. So, so trying to reach out to as diverse audience as we can get. And again, you're showing the personal side of the things as a part of that, I think. [00:37:54] A Yeah, I thought that the there are also instances in the book where even if the They didn't have a personal relationship to the object themselves. They developed it through writing about it. One of the authors Lauren Britton wrote a series of replies to personal ads that have been published in trans magazine, transvestism. And that's really you have to buy it to read it, but [00:38:18] but I really love that about queer objects that the book doesn't attempt to be stoic and impersonal and, and pursue some kind of like historical objectivity as though that even exists, instead really revels in these kind of connections. So I wonder what the Why do you think it is important to have personal connections like that in the book, I guess, because for me, quick history is always been really personal. Like I sort of started with people's experiences of their lives. I guess that's partly coming out of my sociological training, where the personal and the political are really closely connected, which of course is also very important part of queer politics and lesbian politics too. So there's that there's always that connection in Mexico. Politics and then this scholarship, but also it makes it really engaging. Like, who doesn't like reading about the way that other people's journeys kind of might, you know, reflect their own in some way. So I think that's kind of that's part of it. I mean, my partner Jeffrey, he had never had anything published before. And there's a chapter that he wrote in here, which incidentally needed less editing the most of the others, which was really fantastic about a sexual but he carried a skull when he was six, and about what that means for him. And there's a really cute photograph of him eight six in there. So it just, yeah, just a breakaway to, I think the fashion for writing impenetrable prose in academia is sort of, I think everyone's a bit bored by it. It's sort of died out in a way but I hope and this writing in certain areas, so yeah, I just think accessible personal. It tells a story in a way that kind of works, really. [00:39:56] So we all know queer history is something That is kind of seen as being characterized by the so called silences of the archives, where our histories have been hidden or censored or destroyed, or we've had to write in ways that make it not immediately obvious to the casual look on looka what it's about. And so I wonder if the study of material culture then has any [00:40:19] particular significance typically histories? I think so. I mean, I think, you know, one example in the book has freed at 1000 mountaineering memoir. So the object is the book, free to to followup with your partner, Muriel catagen, from about 19 teen onward, so fairly early on, and the relationship has really kind of coded and so there's a coding that goes on often and objects somehow we end up revealing the codes that are woven in there, freely gives it away in one place where she sees that they were what they were kind of trying to sleep on a bunk about, you know, two feet wide and it was not free restful, but quite exciting. lifetimes You know, this late late slipping away. But there's something about material culture, that you can see how people use things in their own life or in that case, you can see how Frieda wrote a book that was extensively about the patient of mountaineering, but was also about the patient of Muriel at just lying just underneath the surface. Awesome. [00:41:23] I was also I think it's maybe in the introduction, I can't remember it's an introduction or an entry, but there's the idea of objects facilitating a queer genealogy and being passed down. So there's an object that's passed down from Oscar Wilde, is that right? [00:41:36] Yeah, the postcard that we belong to Oscar Wilde and got passed down to his executive room in a friend of hers and a friend of hers and I think it's on about fourth or fifth kind of remove now. [00:41:48] So she's so lovely. And I think the way it speaks to intergenerational quick connections, and I think that's such a lovely way to think about preserving history in that way, positively. Something through the generations. And it made me think if I had an object, what would it be? And who would I give it to? So I guess my last question is a bit of a bit of a silly one maybe I don't know. But if you had to pick an object to pass down that is currently in your position, what would it be? [00:42:15] Well, it's actually the makeup box and here, the makeup box bit the cover the globules on the front, which the publishers really nicely put a little spot UV illumination on the front of make them pop out. There's the cover of a Japanese incense box, which inside it has a number of stage pistols really wonderfully rich smelling pistol, pistol stage makeup that was owned by john Hunter. JOHN Hunter was a female impersonator who toured New Zealand after the Second World War. He was too young to go to war himself with the kiwi concept Patty. So really fantastic. We object there are images of hunter in the Turnbull library. There's an interview that someone has done with them. I know a couple of people who knew him quite well. And he passed that makeup kit down to a friend of hers who passed it down to someone else he passed it on to me. So that would be my kind of thing. It's also the object. I think I mentioned that we couldn't put on the other book, originally the colonial objects, but because it was too modern, so it's weird this book started, but it's kind of cute. And like a David Wilder, who was a second owner whose apartment I showed you before, who passed it his executor, and executor said, I want you to have this as like a quick Illuminati ik, it is quite nice. And every so often I go and I lift the lid and sniff it [00:43:43] out again, and then go and have a cup of tea. So [00:43:50] between good objects and bad objects, so the [00:43:54] size of a object, dystonia queer whereas the people who move Because it's fun and tables. [00:44:03] Well, we do have a few things that are quite interesting that gesture to this. Has anyone heard of the pinata provides McGriff before how do you say us? Please Me gray used to determine [00:44:20] degree of sexual arousal in male subjects [00:44:26] shock therapy. [00:44:27] So that was an object that was used as part of regimes of shock therapy so that the chapter which is Kate Davidson's really, really interesting chapter on Neil cotton mechanics mechanic, He who is an Australian version therapy doctor who use this device as part of his innovative comments therapy. That's an object that we frame up in the introduction as being about queer suffering rather than something that would be about queer celebration like that. So we we sort of do our year now this what wills holding out Here is an example of a piece of film which was used as part of one of these infusion therapy sequences. And so the purpose was a graph with the MP attached to the person and the arousal at this kind of image within B would be measured. And I don't want to go into detail about the horrific pneus of those different kinds of aversion therapy was several summon volt electric shock, some involved extremely severe vomiting is a kind of a supposedly readapt of kind of a template, something like that would be an example. Another one that I think is interesting. Wayne Murdoch's chapter on the powder puff in Melbourne. The powder puff was often used by men and urban queer scenes. During those kinds of periods. They'd have it in their pocket, they put makeup on with it, but the police were very keen to grab hold of these and use them as evidence in court and say something which had been powerful of a subculture a good object then gets translated into a bad object and the seats that it's something that is used to secure guilt and becomes Exhibit A. And so Wayne's check directly which was about hold up an envelope with the powder puff and you can see the powder puff at the bottom. This is an example of an object like like this as sort of a Yeah, a community item that then becomes kind of evidence in a in a court case and in this particular case, that to mean with jailed for a number of years in the lives of both of them spun out of control, and they ended up one I think lost the leg and a wolf accident and the other one became extremely alcoholic. So it was pretty sad in for these for these two. So the book has, it's not a sad book and it's not a heavy book, but it's got elements of of both kind of pleasure in suffering and things in between. If you like you If it's a slightly melancholic but melancholy place to end, perhaps how evil [00:47:14] enjoyed this gay day. If you please put your hands together once more for Chris [00:47:33] Orlean stiff and clear for putting this on we've had some gay tea and some gay coffee now and you'll get a chance to talk to Chris and to anyone else that you heard from that you would like to talk more. You're gonna do any signing up. [00:47:50] Yeah, I can do any signing. Anyone would like signing early Scott books over there and then the food is somewhere in [00:47:57] there at the back. Thank you can have a look.

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