Panel discussion - Queer History in the Making

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[00:00:00] This program is brought to you by pride nz.com. [00:00:05] I'd like to introduce Paul first [00:00:07] SS the cheer for diamond is going to come in [00:00:10] in the in each of the panel members will introduce themselves who [00:00:17] killed everyone. Welcome to this panel discussion on queer history. Just before we hand over to the three speakers, just to give you an idea of the brief that they've been given about what to cover in the session today, three questions they're going to be addressing, what do they see as significant areas for those working in queer history to look at including community researchers as well as people working in academia? Secondly, what interesting or unexpected sources have they used in their work or their activism. And then lastly, what material from LGBT IQ activities and lives today, what they want to see preserved for the future and repositories like logins and other in the tumble library in other places. So Jackson fellow be introducing themselves, but this is the speaking or the first will be Tony Simpson, then Linda Evans, and then Cassie happened or, and then they'll be questions, as Jake said, after all of them have spoken. So we're handing over, first of all to Tony Simpson, please join me in welcoming Tony. [00:01:22] Hello. And where did it come along? today. I'm a social historian and the author of 16 books. But I was also for my son's 10 years chair, Rainbow Wellington, which I see has a very comprehensive display here today, and I'm pleased to see it. So of course, that means that I'm a queer man. German writer and critic, Walter Benjamin observes in one of his essays that what we have in history is not the past, but the study of the present illuminated by the past. And he goes on to remark that what we have of that history, furthermore, is not only not the past and fall, but what he calls its fugitive remains. So where we begin our elimination depends on what we have retained as fuel, to light the way sometimes the potential for that elimination is quite deliberately and supposedly snuffed out. I'm always reminded in this context of the story of the Englishman who was conducting a walking tour of Ireland, and he lost his way. So he called him the cottage nearby, and asked the resident Irishman Which way should go to get to Dublin, which the Irish replied. But if he was setting out for Dublin, this was the wrong place to start. Sometimes we deny ourselves and understanding about President by refusing to begin a journey at certain points in the past, we simply don't go there. And if we try to, there are plenty of people to la, la. And to suggest there's an officially sanctioned other path that we should be traveling instead. That's a truth that applies to many areas of our journey in history. When I was a boy growing up, we had, it almost literally drummed into us that New Zealand was in the favorite phrase, the most successful multi racial society in the world. It wasn't until I was an adult that I discovered that some of the people who lived here, let's call a Maori for the sake of argument, didn't necessarily share that view. Similarly, with the notion that we were an hour an open and eager Rotarian society in which everyone gets a fair go, you can make a case for that, of course. Although you might find people who don't agree with you, again, some Maori people, or quite a few women, past and present, who would also feel this was not necessarily a fear ago, society and had not been in the past. Not to mention, of course, the lesbian, gay and trans communities. In fact, let's especially not mentioned when we're talking about our history in the past, but as being gay, and trans communities in the same breath, as we talk about our history. That's how I became an adult. I also had absolutely no idea. But two people I admired tremendously. The writer Frank Sergeant on the painter toss Wollaston were both gay, although they were muted about it, because you could go to jail in those terms, in those times for simply being yourself and saw Justin and some of you may know very nearly did when he was dogged him by a sexual partner who was under pressure from the police. so so much for the fear go, society. I found that out myself the hard way when I went to work for Radio New Zealand in the late 60s and early 70s, called the ends MBC in those days, and I was one of those people pioneering the use of oral history. Nice to meet historically based documentary programs, something which later turned into the spectrum series. I made two almost immediate and important discoveries. The first was that there were certain taboo subjects in the past that you were not allowed to explore. I made the mistake for producing a program about the shooting and extremely questionable circumstances of 50 Japanese prisoners of war Featherston in 1943, which most New Zealanders still don't know about. By the way, it is not the sole topic of conversation in the bars and which I do. The second was even more important and much more positive. There are many people out there who have never formally studied history in their lives, but nevertheless have a very clear idea of the pattern. It's by there's lives on the broader community and the meanings that impacts not only for themselves, but a curious reciprocal relationship to the society in which they live. [00:06:01] Often those meanings have very little or even nothing to do with the official meanings and identities that we impute to ourselves. To find out what those unofficial meanings might be, you have to conduct a search and rescue operation. That's why logins is a very important resource for historians. And some of you may be aware, I'm currently engaged in exercise, and exploring the nature of the gay male culture of resistance, which existed prior to 1986. And the decriminalization of homosexual acts between consenting adults. I know quite a lot about it, of course, from personal experience. Yeah. Obviously, all I was in the closet for most of it, which in itself is part of that culture of defiance, and resistance. But because it's no longer required, it's fading from sight, and recollection, cultures do if they don't serve a purpose. I'm interested in ensuring that it's nevertheless preserved, recording the recollections of those who are its participants. It's beginning to develop, of course, the degree of urgency, because I found, as I found, when I found when I compile my oral history of depression for 30s, the sugar bake is published in 1974. When I was working on it, there were plenty of people still around who experienced it, and I could draw on them. But within a decade, many of them had actually died, they were no longer available. And it would be impossible to write that same book today. There's almost nobody around who remembers certainly as an adult, the Depression of the 30s will be or rather to say we need to watch out at the same thing doesn't happen regarding the gay culture of the pre 1986 era has been Yeomans colleague, Tara door door, no one said in history, we listen to the voices of did a precondition that is we have to make sure those voices are available. Before we can do that I have answers the third of the questions I was asked to address, namely, what material from LGBT IQ activities and lives today, what I want to see preserved for the future, we need to ensure that we have the directly reflected and recorded documentation of that experience through the oral history archive, here at the Tumblr library and in other places. How does it feel we need to have a record of to be a breathing, living gay man in an era of gay suppression. But my project goes beyond that. Because culture and history are not static things. They are processes. And I'm also recording both the point of transition itself, lets you say how the law change came about and what role people played in that and what that has meant for existing gay lives. And each important, of course, what it means for the lives of those gay men who have grown up in a society in which the law is permissive, rather than oppressive, has in fact made any difference will have both the oppression and the culture of resistance simply reinvented themselves in new forms, as often happens in processes of social and cultural change. Now that leaves me No time to address the other two questions I was asked to address. But I'm sure others will really feel it. [00:09:40] Cotto, [00:09:43] you some of you may have seen a Nita Brady's name advertised as being on the panel. Unfortunately, she's sick today. So hopefully at one of our other leggings events, we can hear from her because I think her research into same sex kissing and public is pretty fantastic. It'll be great to hear more about it when she's well. I also wanted to just say quickly, acknowledge, talking about clear history in the making for people who've died in the last little over a year who have really contributed to queer history in this country. Pauline summons very strong in the Wellington area and lots of community events and Law Reform and lesbian organizations pet rosier, probably better now and an Auckland but really influential Boone Keller, who was the librarian at the AIDS Foundation, huge amount of work and making information about HIV AIDS available. And Robin death who the founder of Christchurch gay liberation, a supporter of the archives has contributed material and recordings. And so all the absence of all of them is really important to note. I guess I agree with what a lot of what Tony said, I really like the fugitive remains the quote that he gave that talk about what we using what we're looking at as being fugitive remains, because there is that kind of thing of looking at stuff that's not necessarily on the surface, plus also the fact that things can so easily be lost. And things can deteriorate, recordings can deteriorate, photos can deteriorate, so you don't have them anymore. So it's kind of fugitive, and both in both the metaphoric and the literal senses. And I guess when I think of the themes of queer history of the histories of all of the communities that are represented here today, it's more like how you approach it, then certain particular themes. So it's full of, and many of these things [00:11:43] are [00:11:45] present in all kinds of history. But I think just a bit more. So in our cases, it's full of complexities and contradictions, we really need to read closely to get close to work out what might have been going on, we need to use our imaginations as well as close to research. And we need to have the courage to ask questions, and to not take risks, to name things. And also always to think about the context. Because in a way, in all of our movements, and communities, we give each other context. And so just, you know, focusing only on the personal, which has been really important in will continue to be doesn't kind of reflect those networks and intersections, and the context we can give each other. So the sort of obsession about evidence of this VN or gay, or trans identities and activities, and is something that I think has really held us back. And I think we have to look with a bit more imagination and breadth, and how we interpret our communities and our individual lives. The kinds of sources that have been employed fortunate to me, in both my activism and research have been quite varied. And that's one of the things I think that's important to look everywhere, for possible signs of it. In my case, I'm looking particularly for lesbians, or same sex, women who've had same sex relationships. Any weird should be CRISPR ml, any kind of archive is worth looking at. And you might remember, if you came to the launch of Judah Muslim spoke, it was almost entirely constructed from public sources. That was, Mr. EX, we had the launch at the end of last year, a lot of she read newspapers really closely, she haunted the booths and did splices and you know, she all of the directories of streets, and she used public services to public sources to the end. And that's a good example of just being thinking from the perspective of someone who is a lesbian, who queer, who's gay, who's trends who's bisexual intersects thinking, from your perspective, when you approach the sources. And one of the just to mention, one thing that I particularly love is a source is a letter written in the early 1900s. From one of the Richmond sisters to his sister, Dorothy Kate Richmond, who was traveling in Europe, a companion and possible lover of Francis Hodgkins, his sister wrote to her to let her know that she had seen at a public event, Blanche with her new lady husband, that she wasn't very flattering about, about the lady husband, who's German, and she didn't have a good impression of her bad. That's amazing, you know, the, there is evidence of identifiably women in same sex relationships at public events in Wellington, early in the 1900s. So it's just those little glimpses you know that you can get ideas from, expand out in in kind of put together the sort of patchwork of what could have been and what might be one of the thinking of the things I would really like to see happening in the research in the future, I agree with Tony, we still haven't done enough about the cultures in communities pre gay liberation, lesbian liberation feminism, I think that we really need to do more in depth research in those areas here. And in particular, the whole there's the strengths of the cultures and the imagination of the culture and the viciousness of those cultures. But also, there are the punishments. And there's been very little research possible into the mental health, so called treatments that people received, there's not been a lot of research into what happened when men in particular were convicted, or girls and boys were put into care. Because of so called inappropriate, we'll see activity. So I mean, I think there's a lot of areas still to look at both the ones that are probably a little bit easier to surface in ones that are much harder to get at the information. And the 1970s ends up getting overlooked often. And which is interesting, because because of the emphasis on the 80s, and Law Reform and that so I still think it's important to do work on it. I think with with header, it's important to to look at how things are working for young people, and also for old people. Because, you know, there's now more and more old, [00:16:37] lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender people, how is that for them? And I'm talking about, you know, it's being old. What's it like? What's the experience? Like? How do you just get overlooked you? Does everyone go back to assuming heterosexuality unless you can somehow confront it? So the whole the whole Christian, I think of one of the buttons in the display is how do you assume I'm heterosexual? you kind of need to keep that going right into the future, because that sort of heterosexual supremacy and Hillary sexism is still always assumed about a person unless you can prove otherwise. And how do you prove otherwise, if you're not in a relationship, we use our relationships to prove that often hit so you know, the easy way. I'm talking about archiving for from today, for tomorrow, and I hope we will have more talk from you about there was still so we want to make sure we have evidence and traces of all of these our communities, our personal lives, our political lives, what we enjoyed our cultural lives. And of course, those are increasingly digital. So that is quite a challenge for us to make sure we keep gathering the physical items, but to work out ways of gathering the digital and that's where we need you to help us by looking after your digital stuff. So when you take photos, when you send emails, when you write when you set up a Facebook page, or a website, finding out how to look after it in such a way that it's going to be able to be kept for the future to be used in the same way as the newsletters and posters, and so on from the past able to be used. So and Ellen's going to talk a little bit more about that but the we have some information at the library to to help people with it. But I mean, it's important to know that for your Facebook page, only you can download it no one else can. And if you're an organization that has a Facebook page, no one can download it. So all the stuff that's on that page can't be tagged whoops, sorry, extracted and preserved. So you know, it's just the issues about all the things that the evidence of our lives now how can we carry them into the future queued up? [00:19:08] Tikka Tikka go to Academy day our collateral color code now up if I could take lucky a hokey pokey [00:19:21] and get a note if I'm going to be ultra how cool KC Haddon Dr. Quinlan not a Latina, Koto, Koto Koto Koto [00:19:31] got everyone. So, my name is Casey, and I'm yelling now, so if I could probably hear me. And I just came to give a little bit of a bit of a call it all from, I guess, a young GIFs perspective, I'm always really careful about saying the word young, because everyone gets really offended when I make it clear that they might not be young anymore. So I'm not intending that I'm just saying, you know, why I'm here. Um, and, I mean, like, I got, I got asked about this a couple of days ago. So I don't have like a really big thing. But I have a really beautiful brainstorm. And if anyone wants to come and look at the brainstorm later, then by all means, do so. Um, so I guess, from my perspective, when I come in here, I don't consider myself a historical expert, whatever that may be. And my experience comes from a few different things. And that as growing up in a place without knowing or having any access to LGBT IQ histories, that's from being mixed race, and having no access to my cultural history is growing up at from working alongside young people, and I guess the journeys around the sexuality or the agenda, that's from being really opposed to oppression, and to exploitation and being grounded. And, I guess, political change that really challenges our status quo. So I'm talking about capitalism, and I'm talking about colonizing structures that continue to enforce social hierarchies, which is still the reason why we have to keep gathering here like this. Yeah, and I also have had a degree in the past, but I made a conscious decision to move away from the Academy, because I thought that I was really interested in making those knowledge as that take place, and ivory towers more accessible to people who are not able to access those. So that's kind of where my heart lies. And I guess, um, when I was thinking about the the main ideas around this, I think two things kind of stuck out for me. And one is the process of recording and gathering histories and information, and the other I guess, as disseminating it in and putting it out there making it accessible. And while I was thinking about this, I happen to also be writing this book, and indigenous response, Cmdr. liberalism, I'm such a nerd. But I was actually just reading an essay, I'm going to do a dramatic reading for you, oh, and this, this is I was cold coaches of collecting, and it's by Cheryl Smith. And I actually thought it was a little bit relevant to that. So I'm just going to mention this, this passage kind of stuck out for me. So that's why this these characters view the world and a particular way. Before the action of collecting begins, the person has designed the pretty, the object of desire, the resource and their minds. They have composed collections with missing pieces, they have devised the search and the seeking, the external world becomes a hunt, a trigger of recognition that shapes and manifest their desires. And this world, indigenous peoples love being the collected the named the classified Commons, the public domain, the predictors of the desired the obstacles, the remnants, the fascinating, the reviled, the disappointing, the occupiers, a myriad of predictions and illusions. So [00:23:18] thanks, thanks, Hey, [00:23:21] I just thought it was quite interesting. I happen to be reading it at the same time. And I guess what really stemmed from the in is just thinking, I guess, about history is not as being just so contested, right? Like, I mean, that's why we're all here. Because we know that actually, our histories have often been excluded from, I guess, mainstream history. That's why we have to have against that's why we have to hold these events. And I guess I'm really interested in that process of how things become history, what makes the historical moment who gets to define what their historical moment is, because actually, it's always reflecting our existence, power structures that are already in place. So I think that very processes I find it very interesting. And I think some of the things that kind of spot up referring to my all over the place from brainstorm, I guess, just really acknowledging that there are so many multiplicity, I love that word to say, I'm so excited to get to say it, there's so many multiplicity of experience in terms of what is classes being like, and and around over beyond the rainbow. And I guess it's really cool when we're able to come together, but also knowing that, you know, we're this experience, we these histories, grow and develop, and gather, and for meet and talk and take action, and speak. And here, listen, all of this kind of stuff happens in so many different places, and a lot of those are just photographs, or they're not just minutes from a meeting, or stuff like that. So I just really wanted to acknowledge their, and the hidden spaces, that actually those histories are always growing. So I'm quite interested in that. And I guess also, uh, yeah, I guess who gets to name or define what is happening? I mean, as an example, when we think about INZ Bank, gay teams, as that a historical moment, like many might say there, and what does it mean, when our historical moments are created, manufactured and mediated through multinational corporations? Right? What does what does that mean for our histories and for our communities? Kind of something that's a little bit similar, I think, as the systemic or Asia and silencing of student voices and certain histories. So Has everybody heard of like the new Stonewall movie that's coming out was already at? Yep, there's a few hints. And I thought it was quite interesting. So I haven't seen it. So I'm one of those people, it's just going to talk about something that I hadn't saying, but many blogs on the internet. Tell me that. Apparently, when it was talking about the Stonewall riots, there was a there was a white says game in her very the first wreck, it was like this big moment, all kind of thing. And it's just, it's just astonishing, because actually, it was trans woman of color who were at the front of that Riot. And it wasn't a white says gay man who throw that first break. But now that history has been reinterpreted. And as taking on those existing power structures, once again, and now as young people have been given a picture that I don't think is really true to what really happened. And I think it's really erasing. So I think that's kind of another example of, yeah, just why we have to be quite mindful of how we collecting and representing those, those histories. It's not a neutral process, as we all know. And the other thing, I think the as knowing that we have, I guess that's one thing that I find really difficult and frustrating as kind of like being an marginalized groups and really feeling like you have to be the nice or respectable or polite, queer all of the time. And it's like, Oh, we got to do that, because that's how we're going to get, you know, change or whatever. But also, I really don't want change, if it doesn't acknowledge, like the messiness, and the complexity, and the monstrosity, and all of those really, sometimes deep, dark, unsettling parts of who we are. And I think sometimes these us move to gloss over those, and just act like, you know, we've, we're all just kind of like, waiting for a nice piece of our pie or scraps at the bottom of a table. But I think, I think we can be more complex than that, and not have to silence ourselves and paint a picture that doesn't exists. [00:28:02] In terms of what I like, also, I just really want to acknowledge their, in terms of histories, and without being held as well. So I mean, really thinking about how we can make some of these things accessible. I was talking to a friend last night, particularly about the role that social media has played within a lot of our younger ones, kind of coming to make meaning of ourselves and others in our cleaners, or sexuality, and how social media is kind of like the devil most of the time. But actually, the first people that I came out to were miles and miles away on the other side of the world, because they were the only people I felt I could talk to. And knowing that we have some really richness in our histories there. And how do we make those histories continually accessible? I'm really thankful for spaces like to find a founder, because actually being able to come together into generationally and learn from each other as just a process that I think is absolutely necessary. So I'm thankful for that. And I think a lot of like, indigenous knowledge is and indigenous practice totally gets there. And terms of future stuff, I don't have all the answers in terms of being like, this is what we should collect. And now we should do this because, yeah, I don't have all the answers to that. But I do know, I do want to speak to a couple of projects that are being worked on. So one thing that this is essentially a bit of a self promo, but for example, box Oceania here at the back, I mean, one of the things that we're thinking about is making sure that we are creating spaces for indigenous and queer people of color in Hawaii young, but also, it's open to anyone that's actually not just about young people, because we know this stuff needs to be intergenerational. And I'm just going to quote some of those, the three, like our Koba, sorry, if I'm going over time, Jake, [00:29:53] I won't be too much longer, I promise, I just got a couple of thoughts, Nick manner. [00:29:59] So first, as boosting voices and visibility for our Oceania, living and loving and over and beyond the rainbow, navigate ancestral knowledge is to activate and support decolonization gender and sexuality work, that imagines and creates futures, inclusive of MVP, if I if LGBT IQ plus peoples in their families. And I think that's like a really, like, there's a real historical process that is going on here. And as co papa. And a couple of things that we're working on is creating a website that has a space where people can share these stories, and come together and speak from that position of being indigenous or queer people of color. And also working on building a little community library as well, which is about just gathering resources that are really important in tackling to our community so that they can physically be there and have access to those. So really interested in how we, how we help, what our histories are, and also how we make those relevant and accessible to a younger generation. So thank you [00:31:21] Coto for those addresses. Now there's a wee bit of time for questions. Does anyone have questions? While you're Ellen's got a question? [00:31:32] It's not so much a question as more who's collecting digital in town, if we're not collecting our own digital materials, nobody else is going to do it for us. I've got to talk this afternoon about my 20 year archive of the lesbian Wellington website. And yes, I've already collected and saved most of the files, thousands of web pages. But who else is doing here? I started a little archive of Mark, which will not be photos digital, are feeling my way on what was the best practice and can other people who are interested in clicking digital or doing it, perhaps we can get together and have a little focus? There, I said a focus group, a central focus group will be at best practices and talking to legends about how we're going to get the stuff into vegans. Are there others who are interested in coming talk to me still later or come to my talks this afternoon? [00:32:27] Thanks, Ellen. One, [00:32:30] one [00:32:31] sort of digital resource I was going to mention was the incredible archive it said call it a digital archive that Gareth Watkins has put together, Gareth can give you the exact name of pride, new zealand.com collection of interviews, which is remarkable because many of them have been transcribed. And it's a really good guest and a great job of getting the material out there and making accessible and lots of people here have been interviewed for that. And if you want to know more about queer history and things that a really good place to look did. [00:33:07] One thing that occurred to me to ask was to pick up on this idea of defiance and resistance that was mentioned by Tony and and Alexi, all three of the speakers. How does activism work in this the sort of age of integration if there is this kind of freedom to just hang out at the garden center, like everyone else on a Saturday morning, if you're not at the National Library? But how does that activism work? And where that Where are those sort of sites of resistance and push back at the times when you need to do that? So just wanted to ask you three, I mean, how does activism work? And where are the sites where it might be happening? Is it the queer groups at university? Or is it an hotbeds of activism like Legos? Or with Where can we can it happen in this time of integration and freedom? [00:33:50] It can happen anywhere, of course, I mean, quite a lot of work is done, for example, by rain by Wellington, which alerts a Wellington based collective does a lot of national work, in respect of human rights, civil rights, individual problems of one sort or another, I see that they're picked up and oppressing the campaign about blood, for example, the President and and a lot of people are completely unaware that if you go you can give blood, except on the very restricted circumstances that for many years, might as well not have been there, because it meant you couldn't get blood at all. So you can pick it up anywhere and run with them. But you also have to be aware, it seems to me of the other side of the coin, because I heard somebody mentioned the INZ. And they're loud public commitment to to pro gay and lesbian, human rights policies and the in the workplace. And I always laugh when I encounter that, because less than two years ago, I had to take a case, to the Human Rights Commission, on behalf of an employee of the INZ thank, because they would not stop his fellow employees from treating him badly and discriminating against him in the workplace because he was gay. So if you take yourself up with multinational capitalist institutions, and think that you're going to get your gay or lesbian rights there, then I suggest you there are better places to pursue, then. [00:35:26] I think sometimes it is, right, Paul, it is kind of hard to recognize where activism is happening, when, you know, there are big social changes afoot in the way the whole society operates. And with some huge technological change, like the whole, you know, ways of communicating really affect how you organize people, and how you how you make that feeling of cold call activity. And also, when we've had this kind of society that's been totally promoting of the individual, and not at all promoting of the collective entity activation and in people recognizing what they share with other people, as well, as you know, what divides them. I mean, I think in some ways, it still happens in similar ways, like, as Tony says, this, this kind of civil rights and problems at work to be active on the is the bigger picture of confronting the fact that it's still basically a hit a receipt society, and doesn't look at how, you know, racism, and classism interwoven with it. And so that's kind of like something, we have to take the initiative, and we get away to do it. And then I think the other part of activism is, you know, creating our sort of community life enjoying ourselves, you know, you've got to have that as well, because doing the political activism is really engaging and stimulating, but it's also really important to connect with each other. [00:36:51] Kara, awesome, Christian. I think about activism a lot, doesn't mean I have something coherent to say on it. But I think yeah, I mean, the thing is, is I truly believe that resistance is always happening, however small that it may be, even if it comes out and kind of larger moments every now and then and there, I think, is LGBT IQ people. I think that a lot of us really understand the interconnectedness of our struggles as well. So you know, I think there's a lot of these a lot of spaces where I've seen in our communities that out on the front end being really, really to be able to talk about stuff, even if it's not specifically about our LGBT IQ ness. So I think that's really awesome. In terms of where activism happens. I mean, yeah, I again, I am tied to what you said about the collective versus the individual, and how it is really difficult. And our political environment to be able to conceive of really, like collective organizing that is really effective. I mean, one of the biggest matches that I've been not been on was around the E. coli against lanes are the CEO of SE, it's a couple two to three years ago, in john k just kind of didn't even bat an eyelid about it, you know what I mean? And so I guess, I'm really interested in ways that we can make sure that we keep keep envisioning what collective a collective fight bag looks like, in but tailoring it to our times as well, I guess. And also, I think the thing is, is there, like activism is happening all over the place all the time. I mean, I've been lucky to meet people from some really amazing, queer, straight alliances and feminist groups that are in our high schools. And they're just like, yes, we know that, you know, there are problems of the world, and we're so ready to do something, but we're not quite sure about where to start. So can we get a little help? So it's kind of like there are people who really had this gut reaction to knowing that we need to, you know, fight against a lot of the stuff that we see in our society, but I think that really partnering up between between generations is just so key. So yeah, thank you. [00:39:03] Goodbye, Kota, Kota. Unfortunately, we're out of time. But I think the panel will be around if people have got further things I want to catch up with them. listening to them talk, I was reminded of something out of a Harrison at the NACA water Mati Book Awards this week, and accepting an award for time to finish our book, which won the history category award, and she said, She's inspired by that book, because it shows that history writing from body is one of the best decolonization devices she can think of. And I think we can take a leaf from that book as well. And so all that remains really is for me to ask you to join me in thanking these three, for inspiring us about the whole process of queer history writing kilda

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