The Legislative Process

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by marriage equality campaign Wellington [00:00:03] and proud, NZ calm. [00:00:07] Gilda thought, Oh, [00:00:10] I am not PCs here. He couldn't be here tonight, he had to go to the home. So he got me tonight and said, my name is Ronnie Warner. And I'm going to just explain some of the things that we do because we live in a bicultural country. So the first one or cut up here, I'm going to do and don't get confused with a prayer. It's something that just goes forth. And it talks about the three baskets of knowledge that were brought here for all people. And we talk about [00:00:45] a god or a demigod or whatever you like. However, we like to personify that. His name is Don into Adani. And he brought back from the heavens, three baskets. The first one was to say, whatever your talent is, use it to the best of your ability and don't let anyone try and trample it. The second one says people will, [00:01:13] there are other things but the second one also reminds you of your mortality, that you have a time to do it. And it's now the third one says this. [00:01:27] No matter how hard it is, there are always people who love you. [00:01:31] You will always have friends. And remember those people when things are really tough. And these three baskets, those seeds were planted in a particular local Mother Earth. And because of that [00:01:47] the people could arrive into this world into the world of light. So 10 910 [00:01:59] for Hawk, Hawk, Hawk. [00:02:04] Down in the army [00:02:06] II II II [00:02:11] II II [00:02:15] II [00:02:19] II yo Hi. Look at the one I'm protected to protect the two of them protected they are only God God God taco Your papa [00:02:33] Caputo my [00:02:36] detail Peter. Peter our Maramotti Hey modo de [00:02:45] The next is to say to all those who have lost people no matter who you are. [00:02:54] That there is a time of mourning but there is also a time to rejoice if you've ever been to a multi Tony we do bus [00:03:07] in our motto [00:03:09] go hide it to me he might look [00:03:14] like I'm here to keep your photo Moto, moto Moto, Moto, [00:03:20] moto Moto, [00:03:25] moto [00:03:28] and now to you to all the people who are here [00:03:36] for a parameter [00:03:39] we have to Joshua Koto [00:03:42] Koto Koto, [00:03:46] Koto, Koto, Koto for Tara. [00:03:56] I just said that there was a building over there, which we call the be high [00:04:03] and often it was translated that is the honey house, but let me remind you it was also the house of states [00:04:16] to tell a funny funny older he will alter we follow you all out there on a [00:04:24] call. [00:04:27] Hey Mama, [00:04:29] Mama, [00:04:35] Mama, Mama [00:04:39] Koto, Koto, [00:04:45] Koto, [00:04:51] to men and women, to those who are transgender, and those who are taking on that journey, do we greet you [00:05:04] know, Coco, [00:05:08] Coco, [00:05:11] Coco, [00:05:13] Coco Hera, Machida no matter who you are, no matter where you are from, Tita and let me please define this word [00:05:23] Rama, Rama to weave to the people [00:05:30] across the globe Papa [00:05:32] Peter alotta Tito [00:05:35] Laura Koto Koto if we mock Roma [00:05:41] Well, he did maka mama de na po po. [00:05:47] Po Po. [00:05:49] Po [00:05:52] Po Po time [00:05:56] the singers comedian [00:06:32] good so I did my job. [00:07:45] Hello. [00:08:47] I forgot to actually mention one person who's very important. [00:08:54] Someone who fought for us during the 80s where it was really difficult. I would like to acknowledge friend while here tonight to say thank you for what you did for us was without with what you did we would not be here tonight. Thank you. Kilda [00:09:13] RPG Hola. Hola. Hola. Hola. rato cura [00:09:21] pity Whole Lotta [00:09:23] the Huma [00:09:25] Huma order [00:09:30] for those who have gone before us, let them be together. [00:09:36] This is our chance now as the living to make the changes [00:09:44] not so well that we will be remembered [00:09:48] not as individuals, but as the children the gay children that are being born tonight [00:09:58] the gay children who don't know it, get to know going to go through very hard times. [00:10:05] We have to be there for them. [00:10:08] Kilda Thank you. [00:10:24] And later Miguel Cotto Machida [00:10:28] to economic attainment. [00:10:31] Mommy, Mommy, mommy [00:10:34] My name each enable [00:10:37] equal Papa, or support a leader [00:10:44] in a [00:10:47] hurry cause [00:10:51] a lot of fine, material material. [00:10:57] moto here, I have white. [00:11:01] I fight? You're not? [00:11:03] You're not you're not to me later, [00:11:07] ultimately. [00:11:13] Stop. [00:11:16] Now why we have [00:11:19] we get on? Well, we get on? Well. [00:11:25] As you know, I put my name up to be a speaker. And you might not know, but I did. And when I get that, that job is up to my colleagues from across the house, not from my colleagues that I sit within the party [00:11:43] and suddenly struck me a couple of weeks ago [00:11:49] about why we why we do what we do, regardless of whether a national label the greens, or he's on first. So whoever [00:11:59] and I was Jane rang me and asked me to co sponsor this evening. And as I was wondering, why, why should I co sponsor it. And she she told me that [00:12:15] the Speaker of the House, and I'm always getting into trouble. [00:12:19] So [00:12:21] so here we go again. [00:12:24] Lockwood, [00:12:27] Lockwood, she basically [00:12:27] said to Jane, that she couldn't host this on her own, because it was too political. [00:12:38] And but when I stepped in to co host, it was OK. [00:12:46] I think that's terribly terribly wrong. [00:12:49] She is an MP, just like me, has the same mama as an MP, as I do, has has every right to, to use these holes [00:13:05] on behalf of whoever she thinks, [00:13:09] wants to use them in any way, as long as it's in a respectful manner. So my shot across the bell tonight is actually not about what we're here to talk about, but is about the House of Representatives because it is [00:13:27] a house of representatives. [00:13:28] And you know, back in 93, when I when I came in here, I was only 33 years old, I had a full year here. [00:13:37] So a lot slimmer. [00:13:40] And and I was told by an old co manager, on the very day that I gave my main speech, he pointed to the side door. If you if you look at the front of this building, and you look to the left of the stairs, there is actually a door there but you can go through. That's where my grant my great grandfather, and a number of his colleagues had to go through it couldn't go through the main door. It was only for a short while. But but it seemed to me that I every year, every every new person in here, like myself, and like Jay, we're here to knock down a few walls, we're here to open up a few doors along the way. And some people might not agree with that some people will agree with with with us. Thank God for Louisa Elisa and the courage that she has basically shown the house that [00:14:46] every day is the time for equal opportunities every day is the time for equal rights. You know, I grew up in the in the so called movement, basically because I thought it was romantic, you know, fight the good fight, and all else cool. And it was, you know, we were young and we were and full of full of energy. And and and I and I learned a saying back then in the 70s and 80s. And it was no one is free until we're all free. And I hold that to be true to everything that we do. And it might be on the Tory side, it might be on the red side might be on the green side. I'll be on the black and white. So one [00:15:37] of the colors of mana, [00:15:40] red and black side and might be on the multi party side. [00:15:45] It could be on the [00:15:46] side. [00:15:48] Who knows. [00:15:50] But I think that [00:15:53] Jane, calling this meeting and hosting this meeting this is she is the host I refuse to believe that I'm a co host. She's the host. And so big ups to Jen for wanting to use what is the House of Representatives for a an issue that I'm sure it will be talked around about around the world. When we come to our senses in a couple of months time and we all vote Well, [00:16:23] most of us vote [00:16:24] in favor of voices built to my I don't know how to explain this. I mean, I've got my colleagues here my parliamentary colleagues. But I also have to I suppose co Marta colleagues, Fran and Catherine, who have graced these these halls before me and did a damn good job before me as well. Welcome, welcome back. And I was told to keep it short. [00:17:00] They're not even he and I still giving me orders. [00:17:05] But that's okay. Because I tell you what, I don't despise any member of parliament, even Trevor. [00:17:16] Because I reckon and I believe and I will hold that to this till the day I die, that every member of parliament comes in here. [00:17:25] Wanting to change the world, however they see fit. And and I take my hat off to MPs from the past. And I say to those of you who want to be members of parliament, go for it. It is a great job, it is a privilege to do the job. And I had to be speaker and a couple of months later. [00:17:52] I know some something you know, and in my heart of hearts, it most probably won't happen. Because the establishment won't let it happen. I'm I I'm I'm not I don't see myself as part of the box, I see myself sometimes outside the box anyway. [00:18:10] Have a good week, have a good quarter. And Jen, your turn, tell me to sit down. [00:18:22] Brilliant. And [00:18:24] so this is [00:18:26] an also just to say that for me that what I was saying about the principle of this being an open space is actually a really important principle. And it is a principle for me, I'm here at the behest of the community. That's a big word to us at this time of day. But I'm you know that this is a community space, this is a space where all of us should be able to come and contest our ideas. And that should not be a restrictive space. So I really thankful for tow for enabling this to happen. And you know, and for me being lucky enough to have the privilege of being able to be the conduit for that to happen. And so this today, you know, the timer and at the moment, it's really a defining time for New Zealand, as marriage equality is being debated by Parliament, obviously. And, and I think the panel discussion tonight is the opening of the marriage equality conference, which is bringing together tonight and some quite amazing people who have championed the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexual, transgender and intersex people and our country but over 30 years. It's I think this is a pretty sacred space actually. But 30 years of people fighting for all of our rights. That's a very precious opportunity to be able to [00:19:55] reflect and acknowledge and look forward. [00:19:58] And we have to nice that honorable friend Wilde, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for homosexual law reform, which decriminalized male sexual act homosexual activity in 86. The Honorable Catherine O'Regan, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for broadening the human rights legislation to outlaw discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In 1994. [00:20:24] Tim Bennett, who was the leader of the parliamentary campaign for prostitution, law, reform, and 2003, and civil unions and 2004 [00:20:36] course, our current one for Lewis The wall is the leader of the current parliamentary campaign. And tonight, we're also going to have them rather wonderful. So Ian McKellen, speaking to us by video who, you know, I think of as our red shirt wearing global champion of half the end screen. So it's a pretty amazing lineup, I feel really privileged to be able to, you know, consider myself or at least use the name of host to such incredible people. [00:21:07] And [00:21:08] I'd also like to just acknowledge and met space, and Georgina Baya [00:21:14] who, by being elected as the first trends, genius, gender, transsexual Member of Parliament, anywhere in the world, made headlines around the entire world and opened up possibilities for children everywhere, to be able to be themselves in a way that was never possible before that happening. And while she was here, I believe she said and real example of integrity and honor and made a real difference in this house. So I'd like to acknowledge her and of course, my wonderful colleague, Green Party colleague, Kevin Hague, who you know, from its has been really involved in these campaigns from outside of Parliament, is now here in Parliament taking the other side of this and had his bill in the ballot, to try and increase the chances of marriage equality happening. And you know, we're happy Louis is Bill got drawn, because it's all about the same, the same battle and Kevin as, as much a leader in this, I think, as anyone. [00:22:25] So I'm, you know, I know, everyone's here to hear it here. Everyone else, I just have a few other things to say. But I and I just want to say, you know, I'm almost embarrassed to be hosting such luminaries, when I feel like I'm such a new beta all of this. [00:22:39] But for all that, it's rather great. [00:22:43] You know, and it's in that one of the reasons I'm really loving it is because I shouldn't have used that phrase. But it's good to remember that what this Parliament does, can make a real difference, you know, that it can make a difference to individuals to family and entire communities. And while removing discriminatory laws, I'm not going to pretend for a second that that's going to finish discrimination. And it's really important to acknowledge that otherwise, will actually just keep hiding the discrimination. But what it does is removes a foundation that allows that discrimination to keep itself alive. And for me, that is so important. And actually, it's also good to acknowledge that what this Parliament does can make a real difference globally. [00:23:34] And the world at the moment is dividing in two directions. That is a conservative, regressive force that's being led by Russia, that is trying to squash the progress of sexual orientation and gender identity rights, and put over the top squash it by this belief that traditional values are incompatible with sexual orientation rights and gender identity. [00:24:02] So I'm [00:24:04] very grateful to be in this country with so much work has been done to uncover the traditional stories, and the traditional values that acknowledge Taka, Taka, and acknowledge our diverse identities. And New Zealand, I think has a really important role to play in that. And it's been great with Joe and Melissa, to be able to be a little part of it in terms of challenging what's happening in Uganda at the moment. And we can do that from a place of the progress that New Zealand has made. Thanks to these people in the front row, each and every one of you. And, and it's I think, also just a really wonderful opportunity to while I'm with somebody that likes movements and clicks of activity, and it's it's nice even for me to be able to acknowledge individual leadership. It's not often I do that. But tonight is for me really one of those times because [00:25:02] I know like the Green Party has policy on sexual orientation and gender identity rights, which means for us that any of these votes, it's party policy. We don't have to separate ourselves out. We have that base as a caucus. But no other party has that basically, every time one of those MPs stands up. I think it's a huge act of courage, because it's standing up with it is no policy base, not having that unanimous support behind [00:25:32] you the x. [00:25:34] And that is something I think that we should celebrate is that courage and that leadership. [00:25:43] Yeah, [00:25:44] so it's an honor for me tonight, to be able to co host these exceptional leaders. We're obviously not at the end of the journey, we still have to pass marriage equality feels like a done deal. But I know that that's Lewis will be going [00:25:58] Don't say that. [00:26:00] jinx it. But um, and we've still need to clarify gender identity within our human rights legislation as a basis for non discrimination, and get rid of a raft of other discriminatory policies that are discriminating against transgender and transsexual people. But I am so pleased after the day, I've had to be able to take some time out and just soak in some success stories. [00:26:27] And believe that a world [00:26:29] entirely free of discrimination might just be around the corner. Because so much has been done in 30 years, so so much more as possible in the next 30. So thank you all for coming. And for our wonderful speakers for being the examples you are [00:27:03] curious to find out. And welcome to the marriage equality conference. My name is Robert territory, and I'm the conference chair, conferences officially open. Thank you, Joe, and Jen, for hosting us here tonight. Thank you to be more wanna and to find a finer for the mighty welcome in the song. And finally, thank you to all of you who've come here tonight and participated in conference. We do have an amazing agenda lined up for you this weekend. And while Sir Ian McKellen couldn't be here at The Hobbit premiere, sorry, couldn't be at the hobbit premiere. This week, we have him here. And he has a specific special message for you all. [00:27:49] Hello, this is a McKellen and I'm in London, ever since New Zealand gave women the vote before any other country in the world. The rest of the world is [00:27:59] live to New Zealand for social advance. And [00:28:02] here we are again. And this time that the exciting prospect of possibility of people at the same gender being able to get married and [00:28:12] join the rest of the population. [00:28:15] It's a little bit a popular move [00:28:16] on and I'm glad that so [00:28:19] major political parties have embraced it supported, I know to by the younger generation who [00:28:25] said things a lot more [00:28:27] people of my age. Anyway, my support is with you. And I hope that by the time I get back to Middle Earth, [00:28:36] I might even be able to get [00:28:45] just like sodium said that he'd like to be able to come back and off sort of get married. And so tonight, it's everything's been complimentary. But we are conference [00:29:04] need support. We're going to have a few other people who are going to pass it around if you if you have if you can put a donation of something would be really good. If you can't do it tonight, Brenda tomorrow, bring it Sunday, we don't mind. So I think this by the way, this has been Logan's idea. It's online, so you have to do it. [00:29:26] So I'm going to pass the head on now. [00:29:38] cura Qatar. [00:29:40] So thank you. Thank you for hosting us. And thank you all for coming here today. And thank you for your belief in equality. [00:29:51] So many people who should be acknowledged and are going to be two people here who haven't been mentioned a decent job. It's just been here forever. [00:30:09] We've got an amazing [00:30:09] group of kids today. These are the former MPs who fronted the reforms of the last 30 years [00:30:19] that the reforms which have been a crucial part of that huge cultural shift, which has started to transform the lives of those of us who don't fit the heterosexual norm. [00:30:37] The pivotal event was the homosexual war form of 1984 85, [00:30:48] which resulted in the removal of criminal sanctions against game in. [00:30:54] This was 16 months of [00:30:57] ferment, in which hands roots of thousands of people in this country started to treat non heterosexuals decently. [00:31:09] Fran Wilds role [00:31:11] in that was central and irreplaceable. And I must say that as social democrats go, she was damn good to work with. [00:31:27] She went on to be a cabinet minister. And then there are Wellington and CEO of trade New Zealand. And she's currently Chair of the Wellington Regional Council. [00:31:40] So Fran, the floor [00:31:53] we were asked to speak for 15 minutes, and I thought it might be good idea to speak for the list. And then we have some coffee. Is that right? But I will just give you a couple of thoughts about how things happened. You know, from my perspective, [00:32:09] there were [00:32:11] several [00:32:13] parties and needed to get gala reform through and remember that when this bill was introduced, it had the Human Rights part in it too. And we couldn't get that through. And I think MPs voted that down. And that was the kind of insurance policy as they saw it. So thank you, others who came later and and, you know, fix that. But first of all, yes, they needed an MP who would not only introduce it, but see it through and lead the fight if you want here. And then MP needed people in the house on both sides of the house, who would be the champions. And Catherine, of course, was on the other side of the house, but was my staunch champion. And we're with me, the other end piece to get the coalition together here. And then and the most important party I think was the gay community game has been community. [00:33:12] This bill would not have gone through without people coming out. That was visibility that made this bill happen. Because up until then, they had been several attempts to get gala reform through and I just want to acknowledge you know that there were a number of in peace before we in particularly being young, tried and Warren free. We were just trying to think who else did the rest of Australians in the audience will know. [00:33:36] But [00:33:37] it really required the majority of New Zealanders to actually understand that there was nothing in this that was going to have any impact on them whatsoever except possibly that the workmates or the brothers or, or the sons might actually have a bit of life. But there was no negative impact for other people. And to do that, they had to see that the stereotype that had been put up about gay people for a long time. [00:34:13] It was all my life that I can remember was not actually true. And so during the course of the bill, from the time it was introduced, more and more gaming came out. And I personally saw a shift and people that I knew shift in their opinion shift in the views as they suddenly began to realize that, you know, the god I worked with, or, you know, the the neighbor or people just ordinary Kiwis were actually gay. [00:34:46] And they were really nice people. [00:34:49] Wow. [00:34:50] And they weren't child molesters. And you know, though, this was really, really critical. I cannot tell you how important that was. And so there was a huge campaign. And I mean, I could talk to you for about three hours on the side weren't happy to answer questions, but just to tell you that that was the most important thing. It was people standing up for the own human rights, actually, that got this bill through. And we had to convince Members of Parliament that the electorate would not punish them for voting for us. That was effectively what it was, when it was introduced. The history in those days, unlike today, there was a kind of a gentleman's agreement. And it was gentleman's because there are many men in the house, who, that when you when a private member's bill was introduced, it always got a first reading. And then and then later on, it was just torpedoed at the slick committee, basically, they never saw the light of day again. So I kind of counted on on giving it introduced. But I knew that on the day it was introduced, if we'd had the third reading that day, it would have been completely obliterated. They were I think 19 MPs that we knew we could count on to vote for it on that day, and then graduate. So we knew that between the first reading and the third reading, we had to actually build up those numbers. And we [00:36:13] wasn't [00:36:14] necessarily just by directly lobbying the MPs ourselves that wasn't going to cut it was actually by their electorates giving them permission to vote for it. And how did we do that by giving the people in their electorate, a new view of the gay community in New Zealand. So this was a massive campaign, I mean, my I was party with at the time, which was really useful in terms of getting the bill through, [00:36:39] so you parliamentarians will know what it means [00:36:43] that leave and that sort of stuff. [00:36:47] Giving the right people leave on the right day was important for me. So we got lots of invitations for people like norm Jones to go speak all over the country on Wednesdays. [00:36:58] And he always got leave for you know, both the works are very helpful. And so, you know, it was about [00:37:07] people, we had this huge campaign. And we we targeted public opinion, basically. And so there was an educational side there was we had messages of leaders coming on ds ds was one of the volunteers actually in my office. And we just had, it was so bad, I don't want to begin to describe it. And it was a mess of campaign. And we hit it was kind of quite well run, I think. And we had groups all over the country in the gay community organized themselves. And they did all of this thing and the communities. But I cannot emphasize enough how important it was. For those brave people who were illegal at the time, some of you here tonight, to actually publicly say, I'm gay, and I'm proud of it. And this legislation has to come through because it's about me as a New Zealand or being 100%, New Zealand. And that was what it was about. So I just want to thank you actually, tonight, this is my opportunity, again, to thank the gay community at the time for doing what they did. It was an incredible thing to ask of a prison some that these guys were in really small communities, very conservative, you know, traditional, quite homophobic, so to speak. And they actually were, were we're headed the the, you know, they were brave enough to come out and say, yes, it matters. I'm going to do this, and not hideaway anymore. And so we watched that there was the homophobia was huge, as I personally think it's got bigger in New Zealand, but there's still a strong element. And the fundamentalist churches were just on the rampage. It was scary what they were doing. And so it wasn't just [00:38:50] kind of it was actually physical bravery for people to do that to declare who they were at that time. There was a real danger that they would be heard in some way. So Bill, I'm not going to can lots of war stories, but maybe we hear the other speakers and then we can have some discussions that are right with you. I just want to salute the way sir because this is another part of the jigsaw puzzle that we have to put together in this country. [00:39:20] We've had the other bits of legislation that will meet you tonight and the other panelists have been responsible for helping get that through with that community support and there is still more to go I think the transgender [00:39:36] the way transgender people are treated in the law and New Zealanders not acceptable I think there's a lot of things we still have to do and I suppose the gala reform was kind of like the linchpin to start all of that but there's still a long way to go so those are do wish you luck with it with the bell been watching your [00:39:55] you will struggles with great interest in particularly with your own Pacifica people it's really had when it's your own people saying that to you, so good on you and more strict cheeky. Okay. So thank you, everyone, for tonight for coming. And let's have a discussion. [00:40:18] We've always sought allies from across the political spectrum, and especially from the liberal wing of the National Party, [00:40:28] being young and George gay, played honorable roles. [00:40:36] And next guest was a four term Member of Parliament responsible in 1993, I think, for getting through the extension of the human rights legislation to protect against discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation or HIV status Muslim. [00:40:56] So I want to introduce the honorable Catherine O'Regan, [00:41:07] terracotta, terracotta, terracotta, Qatar. Good evening, everybody, and thank you for the invitation to come and speak at this very important conference. And friend has certainly brought back lots of memories for me things that I'd forgotten about. And I want to acknowledge first of all my colleagues, particularly friend and turn and and lower sir. And I'm delighted to share the platform tonight with them. I recently shared a platform with lower sir, at Maryland wearing 60th birthday party in Oakland. And that was a lot of fun saying really nice things about Maryland. And it was good for her to have to sit and listen for two days, which she doesn't normally like doing. So [00:41:54] thank you. And I want to start by first of all apologizing to transgender people. For not including you in that bill. [00:42:05] We did discuss it a lot. And I thought I'm only going to get this far this time. It was a bit like friend was just saying now that when she introduced the complete homosexual law reform bill, we had another part about human rights, the house would only go so far. And rather than lose it all, you had to lose something. And I'm afraid that I think that the transgender issue was just that little bit too far. I would love to have done it. And I hope that somebody does it very soon. [00:42:40] And friend was very brave doing what she did, because I remember all sorts of things happened to her, and disgraceful disgusting things. I didn't think people could be so unkind and it was not good at all. However, being a conservative from a conservative party, it was quite interesting. The last on the last vote, I don't sure I couldn't find how many of us from the Tory party came over and voted. I know that there were 11. And the first reading that supported the bill. But at the end, I found myself squeezed into a seat was I think it was Judy kill and who pinch made. And they were the three of us are finished. And then I did this for support. I don't think I had much for my own colleagues by that stage. Norm Jones, of course with Ray along and like lot in the lobby about it. And what was interesting, I heard a lot of stories that the men told me or confided in me about things that had happened to them when they were boys. And I think it colored the thinking a great deal. So but at that stage, I shared my secret duty killers, probably the closest I ever got to being a part of the red same so to speak. [00:43:57] However, now somebody wants to get to me. However, you you know, Have you always been a Tory, have you been? Or and Have you always been a liberal on particularly on issues about gay rights? So I guess the answer the both of those is yes. And [00:44:13] I've always been a fan of Oscar Wilde. And since I was a young girl, and of course, his life was a wonderful, wonderfully said life. And at the time, but 1972 I will watch the naked civil servant, I'd not long been married, and I watched the film about Clinton, Chris, and I found TV. And I'm not long had a son. And I was hanging out the nappies on the clothesline on a Christmas morning. And I was thinking about the film from the night before. And I thought to myself, What would I say to that this will lead if he came to me and said he was gay. [00:44:52] There's no way I could say [00:44:55] you can't be and all the rest of it. And I hope that we my husband and I, at time would create an environment where if he ever felt he had to confide in us that he could come to us. However, I didn't know I was going to Parliament and I didn't know I was going to end up doing what I did. So this evening, we've been asked to do a legislative retrospective on how things work the given time, and relation to events which took place at the time. And my time was 1992 post election of 1991 when the National Party became the government and Jim Bolger was the Prime Minister, I was appointed a minister outside cabinet with responsibility for a consumer affairs but I had an associate role as an associate health and Simon Upton was the lead minister at the time. Now my role was to that I'd been given a list, communicable diseases, area and city with section matters to do with sexual health. Now at the time, you may recall some of you will that the figures for HIV AIDS were increasing and as it is today was men have sex with men who were the highest of numbers and the best land Ever since then, and still as today's to wear a condom and the message hasn't changed. [00:46:13] Bodies involved in advising the health ministers and friends safe a lot of these up because was it fan or was it the Minister of Health at the time, it [00:46:23] was the museum. There was the National Council on AIDS and and [00:46:27] others. [00:46:28] Now New Zealand AIDS Foundation was established in those early days, and it was under strong and intelligent leadership with Warren Annenberg. The National Council on AIDS which was established under the Labour government continued through my time, and I had piggy clip and Boyden was the chair and she was a stalwart in this on this issue. It consisted of veneers, geologists, researchers, AIDS Foundation people, Kevin Hague, one stage I think, was on the National Foundation on the for counsel to and even religious people, I think on that Council for a while if assist public policies people and and they kept ministers and government informed and enabled us to make appropriate decisions. Now, I was advised because people with HIV AIDS or those who feel that they had did not have any protection against discrimination. They're unwilling to present for tests because of the fear of exposure, and of its consequences. [00:47:29] There was this constant prejudice fueled by the fear and ignorance fear to face the truth on behalf of those who are at risk theatre come forward, fear of exposure, fear of finding out fear of losing friends. The problem of and the testing, we were told was that it had serious implications for HIV prevention, since individuals are ignorant of the health status may unknowingly put others at risk. studies showed that those who weren't formed and counseled were more likely to adopt safe sex practices. around about that time, priests, police commissioner Jamison was the was not very sympathetic to my call. I called him into my office and I can't believe I did this. I call him and I call them into my office and gentleman said he was to stop [00:48:21] the [00:48:22] resting men around the bogs and the Oakland us laws and the poor AIDS Foundation workers were being arrested as well as getting up the message trying to try to stop people from giving out condoms, even the very nice. So I hold him in and I hit the I don't know how I got the courage to do it because [00:48:42] I [00:48:43] know. [00:48:44] I pulled him in and I told [00:48:45] him [00:48:45] off. [00:48:54] He even made a personal submission to the bill obviously didn't like what I was doing at all. Tonio, what happened, there had been a Human Rights Commission amendment bill in the House introduced by the Minister. [00:49:08] This was [00:49:08] prior to 91. Justice, Mr. Bill Jeffries, but it lapsed at the time of the change of government in 1991, that Graham had responsibility now for a new piece of legislation, which amongst other things, bought the race relations and the Human Rights Commission. And he also removed some other things that the difference bill sought to do. And the national government didn't agree with. I wouldn't I didn't bother going through what those were. The new bill included disability age, political opinion, and various other matters, including the two clauses that I wanted to make sure were there. And that was on sexual orientation and having diseases in the body, which may cause illness. Now, the National Patrick national cabinet signed off on it, other than Brian Lee, and he wasn't there, but Johnny banks was on cabinet [00:50:01] that fall at the caucus gate. [00:50:04] After great deal of discussion and heated debate, the two clauses were put to the vote. And they decided against including the clauses in the bill to introduce into the house, the vote was only two short 2523. So it was very, very close. The National Party was clearly split, but was a majority of the list. This means that the bill that diagram would be introducing would be done without these two important causes. This disappointed me as you can imagine, and the New Zealand AIDS Foundation express the dismay as I knew they would, however, all was not lost. There were discussions afoot to ensure that somehow those clauses would be included speculation on how featured in several newspapers at the time. So how would I as an individual, amend the legislation, I was a minister, ministers can't introduce private member's bills, [00:50:57] it would have to be a back bench of it to this. And the reason for that is that as being a minister, I was a part of the executive and Parliament as for members, not for the executive. Besides that process of private member's bills was a long torturous path, even for backbencher no things needed to move, then and straightaway. And it seemed appropriate to me that we didn't win the bill was in the slick committee, and we'd get on with the job. So we finally came up with solution. And I think it was just something we talked about a great deal. As the Minister of Justice, a minister in charge of the legislation, Doug would introduce the bill. And during the debate, I would give notice that I intended to introduce an amendment in the form of a supplementary order paper later in the process, and asked to invite the select committee to call for submissions on the meta, the clauses would be a conscience vote in the House. This was checked out to be constitutional, but even today, I think has created some interest. Because the would be some debate around this method. But the cock of the house view was source and he didn't see anything wrong with it. I don't think it's been done before. And it's been done since so [00:52:12] it might be worth remembering finito. [00:52:17] From the start, I hit emphasize the health aspect of the need of this legislation, and an attempt to persuade the deltas. Later in my speech to the house I said that are seeking to amend the bill not only on the grounds of human rights, but also on the grounds of public health and the health of individuals. Now, the results of a poll commissioned by the AIDS Foundation undertaken by HDB McNeil was released in the late November early December 1992, and indicated just how far the populace had moved on this issue. From the time when Fred had introduced homosexual law reform. The sky had not fallen him after the law reform in 86. And people felt comfortable about the proposed changes, Mr. Jemison like this. [00:53:01] Mr. Banks, sorry, when the bill was duly introduced on the 15th of December and rid of this time and sent off to the select committee. Now the select committee sent it established a subcommittee to hear the bill. And I spent some time today in these hallowed halls actually in the light, and the opposition lobby, climbing ladders reading the debates from that time, because I couldn't remember who was who were the people involved. But I better get this right. Now the select committee was chaired by Graham Reeves and the subcommittee was formed grammarians in the chair john Robertson, from the National Party and grand grand race, and Leanne Dalziel and Steve Harry. Now, the members the there was staff who actually really served us serve that committee really well, Janice low and particular, Margaret Nixon and good ol Walter Isles. They helped me with the wording of the bell because it was almost like a Minister's private bill, [00:54:05] in a way and a strange, [00:54:06] strange way. So I had to get help from the clerk's office to word appropriately. Now 700 submissions were saved 640 of those submissions receive were about the studies supplementary order paper. Now, this was a labor in house committee to be discussed. This is a source of Clayton's amendment I called an amendment you have when you don't have an amendment, I had not introduced myself permits your paper and it wouldn't be done until the bill was reported back to the house. And then committee status. That's when [00:54:40] a minutes of major committee stages. [00:54:43] So I hadn't done I've just given notice that I wasn't intending to do this. And I called upon the select committee. If they in their wisdom could please please call for submissions. And it would appear that the chairman of committee believed that it was quite within the competence of the committee to hear submissions and was happy to call for them so I was very, very pleased indeed. Now they heard submissions amidst the storm of anti homosexual rhetoric, which no doubt you all hear you again now. But thankfully, it wasn't as bad as Fran had to [00:55:19] put [00:55:20] up with [00:55:21] gramley was with Graham cable [00:55:24] spoke out and campaigned against it as the john banks. As a reporter said at the time, while this while they'll still be a battle, it's unlikely to bring the same all out wars before and one of my colleagues backbench colleagues Peter help, called for my resignation, I was really [00:55:41] terrible. [00:55:45] At one point in late February, I felt the necessity to reiterate publicly again, the reasons behind the legislation and attempt to dispel a myth which had once again risen to the top of the Milky misinformation pond. to my rescue came up very high profile human rights international human rights lawyer in the shape of the honorable justice Michael Kirby of the High Court of Australia, who flew across the Tasman to help with lobbying and his own inimitable fashion. When the bill is reported back to the house and 93, I was sure we had the numbers and although just over half of my caucus did not support it. With the majority of labor in peace who did it was clear that this was going to become law. Today I find myself on the wire cutter diocese centered. And yes, the issue of ordination of gay ministers has hit the Anglican world. Britain is still getting used to women and still want to have women bishops. [00:56:39] Somebody I digress. [00:56:41] At a senate meeting last year, I found myself getting up to speak and using the same language that I'd used in 1993. In a debate about gay priests, I told the gathered center that that at the time, I hope that churches would see reason and change. And this is how human rights legislation works. But I was sad to say that this was not the case. And in the church, we still discriminate the strike despite the language and despite being Christian, against gay people in mainstream Anglicanism and New Zealand. Now, this reform, as Fran has said, in his talk was really pushed one was about gay people, taking them this issue into their own hands. And this reform was really due to them, and also to people like Warren Lundberg and Tony Hughes, who came into my office. Peter Northcote, I think was another who came into my office and helped during that time. There were many behind the scenes and I can't remember their names. And I also want to mention my own staff Dinah Marriott, my press secretary was invaluable. She was just wonderful. And my space Beverly Kerber, I think they protect me from a lot of nonsense, and now a switch probably came my way. So I sort of breezed [00:58:02] by heavily and not hearing any of the nasty stuff. [00:58:06] And Hugh Evans, who was my health private secretary, people in the health department and Justice Ministry were all extremely helpful. That's 20 years since I'd like to think that things have changed for gay people. I do not regret for one second what was done that year. And I still believe today that I would have been failing and my duty as a minister with responsibility for communicable diseases, if I hadn't sought avenues that would stop the transmission of HIV AIDS, or other communicable diseases. [00:58:36] And let speech and the speech on the Sunday morning, I suggested that particular Sunday morning, I suggested and I quote, in particular, human rights laws should adapt to the needs of a changing society. And although values may remain as a constant, and which society can be founded, how we achieve those values may change, we as a society speak freely of equality, we also expect to be treated equally before the law. And although legislation by itself does not remove prejudice from or discrimination in people's hearts or minds, it serves as a signal that overt discrimination is no longer acceptable. And that and time itself changes attitudes. I concluded that speech by saying that we must recognize the Human Rights needs around us and help to create a neutral environment for those who for whatever reason, have fewer rights than the rest of us, the extent to which we are able to do that will mean for many of us a civilized and decent society, this issue must be addressed. And I believe that the amendments were very important. And I should conclude by reading Alyssa I received from again in as a gay man, I have experienced the fear of discrimination by my employer, because of the personal views of their employer. I know that attitudes cannot be changed overnight, but they can be influenced over time by such things as the human rights legislation. I seek to be judged for who I am, for my work and for my successes, and my failures, not on the basis of prejudice. [01:00:07] Had you not been persecuted, so I wonder what sort of life Oscar Wilde would have laid, thank you very much. [01:00:24] So before, before he [01:00:26] came back to New Zealand, Tim Bana, had a background in gay politics. In the United Kingdom, as executive director of the Stonewall lobby, is a fourth term Member of Parliament here responsible for guiding through both the decriminalization of prostitution and the civil union bill. Since parliament, I think he's been global program manager for the World Aids campaign. And now he's back here as General Secretary of the Labour Party. So Tim, [01:01:13] and Bill, thank you for the introduction. And also thank you for the energy you've put into organizing this event, I've got to admit to being the person who suggested we met in here, which I know has caused you endless hassle, and led to the development of this very unusual national green Alliance to actually get it get us in here this evening. So that's a very pure a very exciting engage. And there is a relevant to this location, may this was the site of a failed democratic institution, which was our upper house, which was abolished in the early 1950s. So it's been gone for a long time. And if you look at the record of the extreme conservatism in that chamber aspect of it hadn't been abolished and really hard to get some of this legislation through, it was not a liberal advancing up a house, it was very much the the dead rock of the aging politicians sitting here, stopping things happening. So this is a really interesting thing about the context of law reform in New Zealand is that we work only with a single chamber parliament. But there's one of only two or three countries in the world without written constitution. So we don't have constitutional rights to go along, in doing this work. And the legislation we've heard about, and we're going to hear about and the legislation to come is actually building up that body of right, so Monday, maybe we will have something called the Constitution. And somehow, everything we're talking about today, we need to be embedded in that document. But we do work and in a really interesting and a different kind of environment where the people and the community have to pressure to make things happen, because they don't happen otherwise. And I think that creates quite a different dynamics. If you look to countries like Canada, they go to court to get ultimately the Supreme Court to say that the constitution demands marriage or demands, sex workers be decriminalized. And then the parliament goes along with it here. It has to be a community movement that leads to the change. I think that's important. My background before parliament, and it's interesting, the common spans. It involved, emigrating here from the UK, in 1991. In Britain, I was infant infamously known in the gay media as Britain's first professional homosexual. [01:03:44] Because my mother a lot of angst when she read it, and I know what to believe, but I, I was the first person to be paid full time to work for lesbian gay rights in Britain. So therefore, it was technically accurate. And that was the Stonewall group. And that's where I met Ian McKellen, who we just saw on the screen, he was part of a group of political and artistic luminaries called Stonewall, which got set up to create equal rights and the door for lesbians and gay men. And I was the first staff member, first director there. And that went on to succeed pretty well. I immigrated here in 1991, to Christchurch and got involved both through the AIDS Foundation in Oakland, and through community activism down there in the pressures around the Human Rights Act. I mean, one of the interesting stories of that it was a loving by the lesbian community in Christ, some some of Catherine's quite conservative colleagues like Jamie Shipley, which actually led to that legislation being the first law in the world to actually contain the word lesbian. There was a change that was made along the way. And that was, that was extraordinary, we do actually throw extraordinary things that happen along along all these stories, the AIDS Foundation, really important place in offering kind of training and opportunities for people in this whole sector. I got involved with them. And then in 1996, lucky, after having been here for quite a short time, I got selected and then elected to Parliament, and innocent young labor backbencher. And no sooner had I arrived, and I was approached by a highly experienced older woman [01:05:28] who, who politically seduced me into into taking on the project she didn't mention, which was the decriminalization of sex work. And it really did bounce out of all that work. And it was, in some ways in terms of the figures, and in terms of the issues, it's probably the toughest one of all of them. I mean, certainly in terms of getting the legislation through. So Catherine and I, it's very interesting model. The model actually goes back to the 1980s when Helen Clark was health minister, and arranged fun for the prostitutes collective So was that community getting money for the first time starting to organize having some resonance with the media, and realizing that the legislative framework for sex work was the problem, and then starting to organize among conservatives and progressives in Parliament, and then over a period of probably six years getting to the point where they were ready to start to write the legislation. And it's quite complicated. It's not as simple as Louis's bill. It was very complicated legislation, and it was growing together a whole lot of nonsense, and a whole lot of different laws, a lot of which are not what they seem to be because they were written to allow things to happen and allow the police to turn their face the other way was a complicated work, Catherine drove that do 96 and 99, we went on illicit visits to to sex worker community with Sydney, the amazing health, so featuring you, yes, dancing on the table was in the National Party caucus, and God knows what else. And anyway, I'm Catherine Lang had the misfortune to get selected to stand in Toronto, and greater misfortune be up against Winston Peters and ended up out of Parliament's I was left holding, holding the baby of this piece of legislation. And for a few months with a New Labour government, I thought, I'm not sure we need prostitution de creme as well as everything else. But eventually, we went ahead and put the bill in the ballot come really expecting that it would sit there for a year or two. And week later, it was drawn out. [01:07:39] I remember standing there's a biscuit tins literally a biscuit tin, which is from which all the members ballots are drawn from which members supposed to be there and there were 44 in there. I had the same luck recently. We were 44 in there. And I think mine was number 44 is the newest one in there. And I got a lot of March. And they were drawing one out tonight, just before they do with that I said I think it's going to be number 44. And it was it was [01:08:05] and my co workers gave a collective sign the ground for heaven's what they're going to do. And then that led that process started. And that was, that was a bit more of a process. I think the precedent we broke was that legislation like that shouldn't be changed much by a select committee. And the committee completely rewrote it really to make it make it more fitting in with fitting in with the way that the legislation was, was really molded at that time. And we went back into Parliament's and they got through the first age by 87 to 21. So that was pretty easy. I'm sure it was against it was very highly conservative at that time. And me anyway, back into parliament, again, the been in the election, and we had a whole lot of christian conservatives in here. And they got through the next stage by 64 to 56. Which day we all started to panic a bit. And he went into the most intense sort of the three or four months of lobbying you can possibly imagine. I can remember when I looked at the final, the final vote on that legislation, that the only way one could understand what two ways when the Labour MPs tended to be in favor, which was good, but the gender mix was incredible is only one woman back to the game. So the women in Parliament got the issue that most of the men didn't. [01:09:26] Which was Donna [01:09:31] said Actually, it was an extraordinary piece of legislation. Anyway, the final vote in the last week was people who've seen shifting sides the whole time. The day before the legislation, we were going to lose by one vote. And there's a lot more to the story. But we did one thing, which was, again, a statement about community lobbying. We had a colleague here when he had voted against the legislation that was a liberal, Christian Samoan ground. And one day the prostitutes collective were in here with a lobby team. And when they were one for one of the cafe here, and when he loaded was another corner. And I realized that one of the team was someone and I thought we haven't made the link. So we made the link later that day, they started talking. And on the day of the legislation's final vote when you came to me and she said, I've changed my mind. I'm going to support it, but don't tell anyone. And then what happens. And Lewis will get this moment and haven't had it. The speaker had attacked me will be tired, but hopefully by then you'll be having a chat to Risa about about the about the order of the speakers and the final debate, because the sponsor of the bill was allowed to consume in the case from the people they want to speak. And I said well, okay for win against foreign against, I want the last speaker to be when the labor. And when he told the story of how she oppose the legislation. She thought about it. And then she ended up voting in favor. And were two people he was wanting the right way by that one went the wrong way. And so we stood in the lobby outside here, and we saw the numbers, and 120 people were voting, and it got to 5959, which the two colleagues with me were in some state of panic. And I realized that somebody should have voted by proxy, one of the activity you should debate about proxy for a colleague of hers it was overseas. So we got it back in and that made the 60. And then one person abstain. So we got it. So 60 votes for 59 and one extension. And then we have to go back in the chamber, not looking at having near the results and sit there. Well, well, it was already out. That was pretty extraordinary. Until that until that point, I would explain decriminalisation by, in many ways, but particularly by saying that this is pretty similar to what was happening elsewhere in the world, which of course, was not quite true. So so the interviews the interviews, after 10 o'clock that night, I could actually say we were the first country in the world to determined sex work, which we were and we still remain the first country to do it extraordinary. Because all the indicators are that it works well, the recommendations around the world. So that should be done. But it's a really tricky, difficult issue. And it touches all the negative buttons when it comes to politicians less than the elite. And we can be very brief, because your questions are very important in all this. And while that was going through Helen Clark, called me in one day, which is often clutter and moving experience as you can, but it was terrifying, I think she wanted to talk about was the fact that with the prostitution reform legislation, popping through the system, she was watching the debate around the world about the status on same sex relationships, and she wanted New Zealand to be leading rather than following in that debate that's been 2001. And she said to me, could you begin a bit of a conversation with community about what kind of legislation people want, and to see whether it is only marriage equality, in which case politically, that's going to be pretty tough to get through that Parliament? Or is the possibility of something else. And so we started sort of a website and had a quite a better one year consultation, I guess, and came up with the concept of civil unions, really based on the fact that legally, it was the same as marriage. But of course, the differences that marriage will still be bad for people in same sex relationships. And also will be parallel by another piece of legislation, which I think probably in retrospect was much more radical and was supported by many more people in Parliament, which was to essentially right out of all our laws, discrimination on the basis of relationships. So if you're married, or in a civil union, or in a de facto relationships, New Zealand law, essentially treats you the same. And how many countries did that 287 laws we have to amend. And then the last one was found the day before we got the bailout of the Select Committee, which was a mattino Island. wardens regulation, which said that the warden and and his or her spouse got free passage on the boat out there. So we have to take space think leave civil union partner they got they got some data. [01:14:28] But yeah, so I chaired the select committee that dealt with civil unions. I'm going through the process, which went through the process of running the the endless submitters, Tim did nothing. And 250. Come to the committee, we have five minutes, five minutes, five minutes, five minutes, questions, we got through lots of people as many hours, I was accused of being biased, because I chaired the committee. And so we had to deal with all that drama. And anyway, eventually came back to Parliament, we knew it was a bit easier than the prostitution with. And it got through by majority of 10, at the end of the day, and that was very much helped by four national MPs who supported it. And that's been one of the stories all the way through. So we ended up we were the first country outside Europe to pass legislation that gave same sex couples access to law that in terms of the legal rights was equal to marriage for that being marriage. That was the that was the next step along the way. And it wasn't perfect. But it was, it was fascinating. My last point, there were six little points when and I mean, this this conference, and this event is about the activists of today and into the future. And I think there are some lessons in my experience. I mean, one is that we can actually change things pretty fast in this country, when we think of the spectrum of what we're talking about him, where we started and where we are now. And obviously there are places to go to. And I think we've actually fed off each other in that process. And that's been really valuable means a story, again, from Ruth Dyson, who was Labour Party president in 1990, the dying days of that Labour government, and she talks about the arguments getting the Human Rights Amendment tabled in Parliament, and she threatened to resign as president if they didn't actually table it. I mean, there were big battle was even get it in the system because it was in the system, Catherine couldn't pick it up to be like a baton is actually passing from generation to generation and politician to politician. And, and it's really great to see Joe and john and others as the new the new generation in this place. So the sustainable agenda, but keeping the movement going first point. The second thing is not to underestimate how important this stuff is. I know that john and Joe and Lewis are were in Uganda last year, earlier this year, this year. And I was also there this year, when I was working over in Africa, and to go to a conference of human rights activists in Uganda. And say, a presentation about New Zealand human rights laws and about our laws sex workers, make makes you realize just the resonance of this has it is relevant, not just on the shows, but way outside. [01:17:14] I think the third thing is the importance of stories as they go through this. And the story which I told that 70 times eventually, I heard Helen Clark telling it to sell. And this story I developed was that, and it's the bits of it's a true I was packaged it I think when she was health minister in the 1980s. And, and HIV was becoming a identified threat in New Zealand. There was there was an approach to say what can we as Parliament do about these issues, and there were three things with decriminalizing gay sex, which was friends work, it was also decriminalizing needles, needle exchanges, which went through 1989, I think we won the first in the world to do. And the third one was to decriminalize sex work, and it was too tough at the time. So we did what we could with the funding, and then later on, it happened. And so it's really important to have stories to humanize all this. The fourth point, which I think we heard hints of earlier, is the interaction between community and politics. So this work happens with people in here, you've got the vision and the energy and the determination, that the select committee system, the media, and so on demand a much wider network of people to work as partners in that process. The fifth point is about the cross party work that these are New Zealand values driving us in this work, not actually the actually ideological party values is actually something about being New Zealanders, and seeing the world in a certain way. And then the last one is that at the end of the day, this means real things for real people on the ground, and have a couple of moments relating to the process, reform legislation that was really kind of like they got it through to me. One was that quite soon after law went through, there was a sex worker murdered in my electorate in Christchurch. And after getting the wave of letters to the media center, I was actually personally responsible for the murder, which is the kind of thing you sometimes get to the politician, because the legislation somehow made people behave differently. I went to the funeral and met a family, a family from the United States that came over to her funeral. And they wanted to meet me to give me one message, which was to say that, if she'd been murdered in our hometown should have been treated by the police like dirt, and they wouldn't have been interested in actually finding out who killed her. And in Christ, the police and the sex workers working together, because of the different legislation, and within a week, that actually found out the person who ended up being convicted of a murder. And that was, to me a powerful story about what this legislation was all about. And the last one last story I'll tell was from my work have fairly recently finished doing in South Africa, which, for the last nine months, I was funded, employed to work with sex workers, to train them in lobbying Members of Parliament to get change in their laws. And the model that they wanted to use was a New Zealand model. So that I learned a bit about New Zealand and we went through the whole process of change. And on the last day, I was there, we had a, it was that round together. And the agency I was working in just to talk about, about the changes over nine months, and the confidence that the sex work is a game and Joyce talked about the first day that she went to Parliament when when I were taking a group of them to the parliament to look around, and to go to the cafe and meet a few MPs. And she said, You took me to Parliament. And and, and that was great. She said and then that same night, I was standing in the street doing my work as a sex worker. And the police came along in the van and they said to me get in the van, we can we can take your way now often days and she said to them, I went to Parliament today. She said I've met MPs at Parliament and you can go away I'm not going to go along with you. And she said I walked off and the police drove up. [01:21:14] There's movement in those chains. So in all this at the end of the day about real people and their lives and their journeys, which I think is crucial and I so admire my colleagues here from this institution from their parliament, who've been part of this great story and those of you here and what has to come my very best wishes. [01:21:44] So, now, we have the star of the night [01:21:53] Lewis a wall [01:21:55] 92 photo my camera [01:21:59] and then representative nipple and rugby [01:22:04] Member of Parliament since 2008 [01:22:07] and one of us [01:22:19] Martina Koto Koto Koto capital community to follow you told me why cuts on a way no data Tina tattoo officially Can I think that I am a whiner for that beautiful. Welcome and fuck a toe in the photo for the waiter. I'd like to acknowledge my parliamentary colleagues, and particular Jane low GI Joe Kennedy and Kevin Hague, but also an ED Cynthia child Chevelle Grant Robertson and Marion Street. And I'd particularly like to acknowledge bill and Lauer and the organizers tonight. But I do really want to stand here and pay tribute to the three former members of parliament who have paved the way for me being Member of Parliament who is leading the marriage equality legislation. So Fran, Catherine, Tom, I want to thank you for the wonderful platform that you've provided for where we are today. And I just wanted to talk about the title of the conference, which is on marriage equality, I thought it was about towards marriage equality. And I do have to say that I am here with some reservation. And the reservation for me is the fact that we're in the middle of a process. I felt really uncomfortable about sitting at a table with people who have had legislation passed in the House. And it's probably my sporting background, where when I played for the black fans, or for the silver fans, you don't celebrate until you actually went in. So for me, that was the reservation. But when I think about tonight, actually, it isn't just about marriage equality. It's actually about debating one type of human being and one type of citizenship. And I think that is the bigger agenda that we're all engaged in now not only in New Zealand, but actually globally. And particularly within the context of hearing having Boris Dietrich's here, Jane and I were privileged to host Boris, who was the proposer of the first legislation in 1994. And the Netherlands that created civil union is a progression towards marriage equality that they had in 2001. But he was very clear and his new role as the CEO or the representative from Human Rights Watch International, that the bigger conversation we were having, and that he has is that of the hundred and 93 countries that subscribe to the United Nations 76 of those countries are still haven't gone homosexual law reform. So in fact, in most countries, being homosexual means that you're a different type of human being, and you're a different type of citizen. And I actually think that's the conversation that we are engaged them. And one of the principles of the legislation that I'm trying to promote with my colleagues as around Do we have different types of citizenship and modern democratic society? So if democracy is the way that the world wants together, the different types of citizenship, which was one of the questions that I asked it, the select committee, I want to pick up on something that made is is critical point, which is about the cross party work. And I want to acknowledge that this, this conversation that we're engaged in, and particularly when it within our parliament, is only possible because we have a cross party working group, we have tiwhanawhana, it represents the national party with his colleague, Mickey k. Now, I want to acknowledge Nikki, we have Kevin and Jane, we have myself with my fellow rainbow labor rainbow caucus members. But we also have in our parliament, the minority parties, and no, I'm not being offensive, but we have at the moment, the greens manner, it united future, and the multi party that are standing solid, I mean, that's 20 votes from the first reading. And then the contribution from the Labour Party 30 votes and the National Party 30 votes, it was raining mean, that it frustrating, we had a really solid mandate for the conversation. And so we can't do anything. And I think you've described it tonight with it that cross party collaboration. So that's really fundamental. [01:26:47] And [01:26:50] when I, when I've looked at this whole development of, I guess that one citizenship, and it really is the thing for me, and the UK, they had homosexual law reform and 58. But when I look at the progression, so it wasn't 74 that Lynn young proposed the first homosexual law reform, then it was Warren free, so it wasn't 74 were inferior, and I think was 78 and 80. And so it took 12 years before the first brave Member of Parliament decided to talk about this before friends bill was successful. And part of that, I think, community conversation means that the country was pretty much split kind of reminds me of at one in the Springbok tour, you are either for homosexual Law Reform or you are against it. And I think some of the residual issues that we're dealing with today are actually about people who were either on the side of homosexual Law Reform or not. And so when I look at the biggest challenge that we have in the country at the moment is those people who are aged between 20 and 34, didn't support it in predominantly men. So 55 year old men had the biggest problem with homosexual Law Reform now have the biggest problem with marriage equality. But for the younger generation, it's been typified by referring they're both it Otago in at Victoria University 84% support. And so young New Zealanders. I think because they live with modern family. They live with TV programs like Grey's Anatomy, where you have characters who are in relationships, they're either married or bringing up children. I mean, I think the normality of homosexuality, for younger people really means that this as a New Zealand at the moment, a problem that elder New Zealand does have. And people have said I shouldn't say that, or I shouldn't highlight it. But I think that's the reality of the conversations. But what I do want to acknowledge, in within less content taste as leadership, for example, of the Salvation Army, in the leadership that I talked about, as I'm sure they're having debates, but they're having internal debates. They're not having public debates. It is the Anglican Church, who are having debates, but they're having internal debates. And so I think that what we have at the moment to people like, you know, Family First, who seems to be trying to run an agenda about this is so complicated that we can't progress. But the reality is, and I think what I've managed to do, and we've managed to do really clearly from the beginning, is say that we want to balance freedom, from discrimination, with freedom of religion. And so from the beginning with had a really transparent agenda, that we don't want to upset what currently happens, in fact, I will fight for the rights of our religious leaders to believe what they believe in to marry who they want. So at the moment, they're authorized, not obliged in it, through the sleep committee process that we're going to have to do something to strengthen section 29 of the marriages, which we will do. But [01:30:09] I think some of the other conversations, in terms of future development really is around focusing on a marriage is an institution where people love each other, they commit to each other, they want to create families, and everybody, every human being strives to find the life partner. Doesn't matter who you are. But I think the language that we've used, and the legislation, which is why it is so simple, because marriage is about two people, regardless of sex, sexual orientation, and gender identity. And I think broadening their agenda to encompass our trans out into six, as an opportunity, I think, to probably at the legislation goes through highlights that might be in Section 21 of the Human Rights Act, we should be looking at gender identity. And I want to know, Georgina, who's not here because that was something that she wanted to do. And crown law, see that was already in the legislation, that under six can discriminated by Sonia six, then included gender identity. Now whether or not that's going to be fit for purpose, when we move to the future, there will be a later development. But some, I just want to thank the organizers, because the work that's happening in the community with the marriage equality campaign, I want to acknowledge Margaret and the work that she's doing. And I think having really positive constructive conversations within our religious institutions, it's been really, I think, mature. For us as a country. I've certainly tried to have conversations with our Pacific community, especially. And I do want to acknowledge the the the issues, but the reality is music Islanders, such a diverse society now. And we have people whose heritage identities, because of homosexual Law Reform not happening and someone not happening. And I think that we just have to understand that, you know, will take time to fully embrace the acceptance of one type of human being and one type of citizen, but we're certainly towards the path. And if I was to say, what the big agenda around all of us is actually about one person [01:32:36] as equal to another person, doesn't matter who you are, that that's the big agenda. And so I've been pretty transparent about that. I do want to acknowledge the week that Jane and toe and I will continue to do representing us, as Ipu, delegates to the next Ipu forum and Quito, because we [01:32:59] think now understand that New Zealand has a role to play on the international stage, to continue to advance this particular issue. And we will do that to the best of our ability. And so when we go to Quito next year, we will put out [01:33:18] to the Human Rights Committee might be given [01:33:22] an opportunity for us to look at how Parliament's around the world, you know, contribute to the decriminalization or the homosexual law reform agenda. And so we commit to doing that. But I just want to thank you very much for the opportunity to share the stage with them, particularly these three wonderful people. And [01:33:45] you know, I just look forward to we're, this debate will take us in the future. And I thank you very much. So curable hand over to you. Thank you. [01:34:03] Thanks. So we've got some time for some questions or conversations and discussion. Please try to be brief, who's got something to say? [01:34:16] Now, you will be recorded. [01:34:20] Unless you protest, in which case, I think it can be turned off. [01:34:27] I'm taking some of [01:34:29] the minutes that Fred has kindly offered to fill in the history. I'm not a historian, but [01:34:40] I'm taking some of the minutes Fran has kindly offered to fill in the history. But first I would like to say to knock Ray Lewis [01:34:52] Nirvana [01:34:55] na how hit or who [01:34:59] hit Houma Mount Doom. [01:35:03] Me Mike, [01:35:06] to set a timer or the hobbit [01:35:08] pair, Cow Cow and make here [01:35:11] what OBD. [01:35:16] In 1893, the Criminal Code Act was passed based on the English Crimes Act of 1885, by which Oscar Wilde was condemned, which condemned male homosexual acts including those in private. In 1900, and eight the Crimes Act defined penalties for sodomy and indecency between males. [01:35:35] In 1941, and 1954, amendments to the Crimes Act reduce the penalties for male homosexuality. flogging was abolished in 1941. Although I doubt that there were many for a long time before that. [01:35:51] In 1959, the Attorney General hg Mason, the second Labour government tried unsuccessfully to have the penalties for homosexual acts reduced. In 1961. Section 39 139 [01:36:06] of the Crimes Act criminalized sex between women over the age of 21, and girls under the age of 16. Penalties for male was set at five years imprisonment for a decent assault and seven years for sodomy. [01:36:20] In 1968, Arnold Nord Meyer labor presented a petition to parliament on behalf of the homosexual Law Reform society, signed by 75 prominent citizens asking for changes the Crimes Act, I'm proud to say my mother was a foundation member of the homosexual laws of society. signatories included the Anglican bishops of Auckland and Wellington. Lawyers such as Shirley Smith, academics such as professors Lloyd Gareth and James Richie doctors, including Diana Mason and clergy such as john Murray, who I saw this afternoon and Monte Holcroft, former editor of the listener, Walter Scott, former principal of Wellington, Teachers College and education, Jax Shallcross, who I hope is still with us. was returned later without recommendation by the chairman Gordon grief national our saying if the revolting practice were legal, the public would no longer think it was a moral which I think is the message not. [01:37:21] July 1974, then young introduced a crimes Amendment Bill with an age of consent of 21. [01:37:28] Gerald law wall Labour Party removed an amendment making it punishable by two years jail to communicate to anyone under 20 that homosexuality was normal. The bill and the fit and amendment were defeated. In passing 1976, Maryland wearing was sprung as a lesbian by truth newspaper [01:37:49] 1979, Warren freer introduced the crimes amendment builder criminalizing homosexual acts, but with an age of consent of 20. [01:37:58] lesbian and gay activists supposed to bill because of the discriminating age of consent, and it was defeated. [01:38:06] 1983 the equality bill was proposed by the open gay Task Force, Fran Wilde agreed to introduce it as private member's bill, but it was opposed by lesbians and radical Greg Amen. That's what I wrote in the year 2000 because it would have criminalized some lesbian sex, and it was dropped. And on July the ninth 1986, the homosexual law reform bill was passed by 49 votes to 44. I came out at that moment. And a few moments later, you may remember a preacher called from the gallery to friend saying she would roast in hell or some such. And the speaker said, Have that man removed. And Mr. Muldoon said, throw the roof does that true. And I vowed, I renewed my vows that I had taken up when he first attacked Michael, that I would dance on his grave, and I have since done so. [01:39:16] I didn't bring this here to read it tonight. I brought it to take my niece and her partner, Emily and [01:39:25] Eloise and Emily on a short, lesbian gay history walk. And first port of call was the official hotel. And we read on the stairs Catherine Mansfield's short story was, which is still worth reading. [01:39:53] Like questions or comments [01:39:58] can be taken around Hello, [01:40:03] Tony. [01:40:05] I thought it was worth emphasizing that in the civil union [01:40:11] act, that it that really thanks to to as far as I can see, we have something very unusual in New Zealand. Virtually every other country or state of the of the US or wherever, which has passed such passed such legislation has limited to same sex couples, with the result that when marriage equality comes one presumes that civil partnerships, for example, in the UK will wither on the vine. Did you know by the way that the UK whilst at record know whilst it recognizes same sex civil unions from New Zealand does not recognize opposite sex civil unions that is just shows what a stupid lot those problems can be [01:41:00] as an ex Parma [01:41:04] I think it was also noticeable that some of the opposition on the right to the to the civil union, [01:41:11] that legislation [01:41:13] specifically [01:41:15] covered the fact that they didn't lie, but heterosexuals were going to be allowed to do it. But that's allowing heterosexual something else apart from marriage. [01:41:24] But But of course, [01:41:25] what it does mean is that when we pass marriage equality, we will still have an institution called civil unions, which heterosexual and same sex couples can can opt for. And this will give us thanks, [01:41:43] thanks to the careful [01:41:44] wording of that act of far more choice than other countries will have. [01:42:00] keras So I'd like to thank all of the members of parliament who've worked on these positive legislation over the years. But tonight, I particularly like to thank Catherine O'Regan. [01:42:12] During the 1992 and 93, I was a member of a group called common ground and I believe bill was also a member of that group. That's where I met Charles travail is a young student, what we did was we formed an alliance, the disabled persons assembly who had not been included in the previous human rights legislation. People have different sexual orientations identifies bisexual, so I was the arrows that sort of grouping. But people have a whole range of areas got together. And we're trying to do that behind the scenes, Lisa writing campaign, and for many people that never actually been in the room with the other groups. So you've got lesbians and gay men working with people who had to abilities people disabilities, we have people who are HIV positive, it was, you know, a really great mix. And I think one of the things about the services legislation This is coming through as well is that there is a great range of different people from community groups who are working together on a common cause. And that sharing within the community and the whole ripple effect, you know, we're all peoples in the pole. We're all sending out a repost to communities. And I think that's one of the things that the priests legislation has enabled to help us move some of the big rocks are those, those ripples can go a lot further. So thank you. [01:43:40] Good evening, everybody. Well, speaking preserve home [01:43:42] and 55 year old male. [01:43:46] I feel a little bit challenged here. [01:43:47] But [01:43:49] I would just like to thank [01:43:50] all of you for the support that I've seen [01:43:53] over these last month. So my name is Nigel stuff, and I was the teacher up north. [01:43:57] One thing I'd also add CO [01:44:00] from the Weezer [01:44:01] is the young people in this country. The students in the school that I taught that were amazing. [01:44:07] They faced incredible challenges [01:44:09] in what they did. But they were prepared to stand up. [01:44:13] There's a lot of [01:44:15] adults out there that are not prepared to stand up. And I think what you're doing now is so vitally important, because the teenage suicide rate in New Zealand is so high. And what you're doing is you're giving an awful lot of people [01:44:27] a lot of hope. [01:44:29] So thank you all for doing that. [01:44:38] I wonder there's a panel might want to intervene at the stage and make any responses to those things. [01:44:46] Yeah, we'll have some more later on. [01:44:51] I'd like to say something about what Nigel [01:44:52] just said, because [01:44:55] when we did get a reform [01:45:00] was a long time ago now. But a lot of the the, one of the most powerful responses to me was from young people who said, who were just terrified. I mean, now it's kind of, it's difficult, I guess, if you're at school, but in those days, it was just a complete No, no. And a lot of young people write to me, and said, Thank you very much. And, and they still was scared, I don't think many of them actually did come out as unlike the adult, the adults that did that, for them, it was really, really important. One of them He was charged a bill, who was at school, and got in touch with me that was when I first meet them, but I know how important it was for them. And I guess it still is because the vulnerability of kids of that age just huge. And there's so much chaos going on in their lives as well and to have to contend with society preachers of that nature's just [01:45:58] pretty must be pretty terrible. So the sandals what you see it and I saw that too, when when gala for was going through actually [01:46:08] anyone else on the panel at the stage. [01:46:15] The thing that drove me bys at the beginning was the HIV AIDS issue. And I worried that it's going disappearing. Again, the whole issue about HIV AIDS is disappearing, when in fact, it's still a major problem. And I remember, because I had such a lot of contact with individuals and their stories. And I'd see these wonderful young men dying [01:46:41] of AIDS, and [01:46:44] such a waste such a waste. And one young man, I thought I thought I'd tell you his story. In fact, he started up the organization mean, [01:46:53] people who are living with people with AIDS, [01:46:56] living with AIDS was quite a quite a difficult title. [01:47:00] And he had AIDS, and [01:47:04] he was not at all well and taking rather large amounts [01:47:08] of drugs to cope with it to deal with it. [01:47:12] And he'd had enough and he rang me one day, he said, Catherine, he said, If I stopped taking these pills, am I committing suicide? [01:47:25] And I said, this is a bit [01:47:28] of an ethics question. And I just said, Look, let me think about it, and I'll come back to you. So [01:47:36] I thought about it for a while. And [01:47:39] I decided when I rang him back, I'd said to him, tell him it's not, [01:47:44] you're not committing suicide, all you're doing is leaving nature take its course. And two weeks later, [01:47:51] I was speaking at his funeral. Now, [01:47:56] I think we're inclined to forget today about those means who fought so hard with organizations with a needle exchange people with gas was a [01:48:05] gaff. [01:48:08] The things that people that individuals gaming, and others who are drug addicts were using had got HIV AIDS, from needles and needles using needles that were infected. And I think we don't see a lot about that today. And I think the stole the issue is still out there. You could still get a HIV AIDS and you don't want to get HIV [01:48:36] AIDS. [01:48:37] And I think this needs to be a bit more of a discussion, I think about it amongst the gay community I seats that there's a bit of a gung ho, edgy because the cocktails are different now. And you can actually live quite well. Taking the drugs to, to alleviate but still the same thing, that same issues today. And I really would like to encourage [01:49:03] those who are involved with [01:49:05] an HIV AIDS communities to speak up again, because it needs to be heard, [01:49:11] think [01:49:17] some of that [01:49:38] lab, which goes back to [01:49:40] the connotation to Oracle, finding errors, [01:49:42] extreme question, the discussion tonight is we're taking baby, [01:49:48] we are very much as possible on [01:49:51] our comments on this call is [01:49:58] live. [01:50:00] And a part of the community that [01:50:06] is happening today. [01:50:15] And you are too late last year was reformed, [01:50:19] working which was intended for that so you [01:50:24] a good friend of mine, who has been [01:50:27] nothing. [01:50:31] But just was a very intelligent man and a friend of mine, who was vehemently against any reform and his opinions in relation and his arguments against [01:50:47] any [01:50:48] reform that affected the New Zealand Defence Forces was very much stereotypical. And he had, I guess, he felt we had at that time, an instant played into his hands. [01:51:03] A soldier for which I was indirectly responsible for had had been raped [01:51:10] by another male and [01:51:14] unfortunate circumstances. And, and that was being investigated at the time. This provided good fodder for Ferguson, his argument against decriminalizing kind of sexuality and the New Zealand Defence Force. But that file to look at this circumstances involved, because once the investigation into the right command, shortly afterwards, [01:51:41] a soldier was found hanging in his single living and quarters. He was a senior NCO. That soldier was guy. [01:51:51] He had joined the army because he was not accepted by his family. He joined the army to try and become a main that society expected on him. I think that's possibly part of my reason for being in the army at the same time. He handled it quite differently. 60, right, a situation arose where he found he couldn't resist the temptation, he committed an act for which he was a poor, to the extent where he took his life subsequently, that argument was used by gas and the submission. [01:52:30] Here to Parliament to justify not reforming the act, lower format, [01:52:38] as it affects that will take a day in the museum Defence Force. [01:52:44] I'm proud to say that I was probably one of the few who stood up at that point in time and said that that was a reason why the reform should go through head to head there be no criminalization. But shoulders, both incidents were both tragedies would have been avoided. I like to think perhaps I influenced a few opinions within my community. But I think, even though I didn't identify much as I do now, at that point, the reality is that those sorts of thinking and their mind, Gus wasn't, is still an intelligent man. But these, these intelligent people still think dumb. [01:53:33] Because their minds sit in a kind of adopt channel time more. And I guess what I'm hoping for out of this sort of community gathering and this forward thinking is that we start to look at these issues of human mods, not gay or trans or any other rights, but we look at these issues of human rights in a global form. And we shouldn't be arguing for my rights are extent, I'm a human. What is not right is for anybody to take those rights away from me or legislate them prevent me having those rights. That is what we must work against, at every level, and in every occasion. [01:54:16] Thank you. [01:54:26] Next [01:54:37] occasions amendment was moved. Warren Cooper, who was the in the defense minister, said that there would be no more discrimination and the army and the defense forces and cyber. I was delighted about that. [01:54:54] The police were not quite so forthcoming. [01:55:01] So [01:55:02] one or two speakers, if there are anyone [01:55:09] want to say something about Lewis says, Bill now. And I wanted to let the politics of what's going on because I'm hearing, you know, the numbers might be there in the parliament, which is great, but losses in a really difficult situation and South Auckland, as I see it, where she's being attacked constantly. And that's what I'm seeing on the news. And she just told me another little story earlier. No, seriously. So and I don't know where you will come from, but she needs some support politically. I was lucky, because I was in a really liberal electorate, when I did central can't get a more liberal Electoral College and central full of young, educated people. And we were all, you know, partly liberal. And I think lewis is in a completely different situation. She's being attacked by her own vitals her own people who should be actually supporting here. And they're not. So I'm sorry, you might disagree. But that's how reading the news, that's what I'm, that's what I'm seeing these kind of stories coming. So really, if you're from Oakland, or you know, people up there, can you get them to kind of tune out for here, in in just be voices there. At the times when these other demos are going on. I don't want fights in the street. Of course, we had left there. But you know, there needs to be some public support. And maybe you're getting it in Oakland. And you know, maybe it is happening, but I think that's really important [01:56:38] that people get there. [01:56:41] Because she's doing the right thing. And that should be acknowledged and not just be a big political bookmark for her for with the voters. The other thing I just want to say is that [01:56:54] it's really good that you guys went to Uganda, Uganda, [01:57:00] actually close to home, we've got real issues around the Pacific, which is our neighborhood. And I cheer little human rights script that operates in the Pacific. And our biggest issues, we do a lot of work with governments getting advising them on law, we do so training of community workers, and all sorts of things. But the two biggest issues are women's rights. This is the Pacific end HIV AIDS rights of HIV AIDS people. There are huge, huge issues in the Pacific. And so I think it's really important that the NPC please, [01:57:35] you know, speak up about that, too, because there is an area we can influence more. And we can influence that through our membership of, you know, the Pacific forum and the Pacific organization, the political organizations, and the closer relationship we have with us governments, and also our own government here in terms of the development assistance work. And you all know what's happened there. So sorry about this. But this is an shameless pitch for more activism, actually, in this area of human rights, not just in New Zealand, but also in our own neighborhood, which I regard is that the Suffolk so sorry, but I just wanted to do that as an ED kind of an Arabic. [01:58:19] So we're about to wind up. [01:58:23] I do want to talk about the conference, which is still going on tomorrow. I think there's a brochure which has to be handed out as you go. And, and that conference will go on all weekend. It's a slightly different focus. Tonight, we've been talking about what happens in Parliament. And to some extent, the connection between Parliament and the community. And the focus will be the other way around for the next two days. What the community can do, and to some extent, how that interacts [01:58:58] with lb. So slightly [01:59:00] different focus, and an interesting full program ahead, take the brochure as you go. And we'll see you at some ungodly hour tomorrow morning, nine o'clock, is it [01:59:16] now, is there anything else that you guys would like to say? Just as a last word? [01:59:26] Yeah, I'm gonna start off by just recognizing the word all of you are doing in this campaign. And I think what this evening is done is to bring out those historic spans really well of what's happened through the story. And I'm really excited by Jan's sort of references of other challenges that lie ahead. So I mean, that's really crucial. [01:59:50] I guess the other thing is to recognize that they were in this rather over impressive building, and there's been a big focus on parliament. And on MPC. Essentially, MPs are people who come from community and go back to community in one way or another. And we just feel really lucky to have had an opportunity in our lives to be in this place, which is an extraordinary privilege. And I think within that group, we're even luckier to have been around as a time when really good things are happening, and to be in a place where we can actually be part of the process of making them happen. So any of that that can be shared in terms of that story, and about how people in politics work with people outside politics to make things happen is something which is so key to our democracy, and our future, whatever the issues you're involved in. So that, for me has been the big, sort of big reminder of tonight. So thank you very much for being here. [02:00:49] You have [02:00:50] met tonight, and the one room of the Parliament were an actual fact, the submissions were food [02:00:56] for homosexual or form. [02:01:00] Committee tables was set up in this room, this very room. So it seems totally appropriate that this meeting and your conference began, and this whole thing. [02:01:18] I [02:01:19] just want to say that there are some challenges for me, specifically in South Auckland, I did have two of my ministers come and see me and they represented 22 ministers in South Auckland. But it was quite interesting, because we got into a discussion about our young people, and about sexual self determination and about framing environments where our young people know that they're loved in the values. And actually, they have the space to be who they are. And it was really interesting, because one of them said to me, are you telling me how to minister and that was in the constant context of him coming to my elected office and telling me what I should be doing? And how to be an MP. Yeah, but it was, it was quite interesting, because I think what I've tried to do all along was to create these spaces to talk. And I think for, [02:02:14] for me in this role, my patient and drivers are young people. [02:02:20] I want [02:02:20] to acknowledge you. [02:02:23] For the principled stance that you took and supporting the young people in school, I think that you showed a lot of [02:02:31] courage. But [02:02:32] more than that, I think at the heart of what you did was putting our children at the center of any work that we do. And so what drives me, I think, what drives Kevin Jane, a lot of us who are in here, as the legacy that we want to create for the next generation of New Zealand. [02:02:50] And so I'm [02:02:53] fine about people in my electorate challenging me. [02:03:00] Do been insane. And Simon I have I was at the water markets on Saturday, I have a lot of Pacific people come to me not publicly, [02:03:10] but they'll see me in the market. And they'll say, [02:03:14] you know, you're being so brave, we support you well done. We love Taka, Taka Wi Fi know, we love our father Fini far, no, they won't do it, collectively or publicly. But I think that there is a misconception that the Pacific community do not support the spell in so I know, for example, that I have a maneuver Youth Network. And they're going to have a forum very early in the new year, because the leaders who work with our young people realize that this is such a big issue. And so we are doing a lot of work in the community. But I do want to thank you and I don't feel like I'm isolated. But I also don't feel like I'm brave. I mean, I mean, know, what did [02:03:56] you feel like you were bright? No, we did we do what we do, because it was the right thing to do. [02:04:02] And I just think that I'm at some at this time. And all of it's about timing. But I do want to thank all of you here. Because we have all been clear right from the beginning that we can only do this together, that no one person is going to achieve it. And I think I want to pick up on something Tom see that we've actually had a continual campaign. These aren't discrete, separate campaigns, actually, they've all overlapped. And we're all working together. And we will get where we want to go. I've got no doubt about it. But it's how we get there. And then how we engage with our communities to make sure. And for me, and my Electrolux, my Indian communities, my Asian communities, my Pacific communities, because when this goes through, there's still a lot, a lot of work to be done to make sure that people understand that we're not trying to infringe on the rights, but actually living in a modern New Zealand society, we all have to respect one another, understand one another, be tolerant to be Lyft. together in so that's kind of the other agenda that I had going forward is that we continue these conversations and it doesn't just end when the bill goes through. So you last comments. [02:05:17] Say I'm usually not last foods. [02:05:23] Thank you for organizing this bill. Actually, what it's I think the I just want to echo what's being said just a few minutes ago, I think it would be worthwhile exploring further at some stage how much has been done in New Zealand by cross party. [02:05:39] work, and I just mastered earlier to, to hear to Catherine that we did a whole lot of stuff for women cross party in this parliament. Right or form all of that stuff was done by us working together. And we had male ministers of justice who for who worried for all get still couldn't, couldn't understand it, you know, different parties. And we gradually got these things via all the legislation about violence and all that sort of thing. And that's been driven by the women actually, cross party and it's been really important work that's happened and you know, there's some there are some good stories terms, right, that we need to keep doing. I didn't tell you any storage, not because there's too many about going to a form. But you know, there's some great stories. And at a time when sometimes I'm so now I'm not here, I look back. And I think how can be people behave in the house the way they do. I mean, you wouldn't want your kindergarten kids behaving in that way, actually. But there's some great things that happen here too. And we need to celebrate the good things that happen in Parliament, not just look at the ridiculous behavior question time. And think that's how does unconscious votes do bring out there shouldn't be conscience votes, in my opinion, on new greens. [02:07:00] I won't [02:07:00] vote for you. But I have to say good on you. [02:07:05] And I'm swinging go to two. But actually, you know, like having sex and alcohol and religion and those things is conscious, but as nuts they are the big issues central to our human existence, not alcohol, perhaps for many people it does, but six years. And you you know, the kind of art doesn't really matter about them this scary issues actually. So well done for having policies. That's great. Anyway, thank you all for coming tonight. [02:07:43] Just a couple of announcements. Tomorrow, we start bright and early at the Wellington community Law Center for the workshops, level two at four Willis Street. So hopefully you'll find that there's brochures outside for more information. And for those that like to tweet hashtag is indeed in EC so New Zealand marriage equality conference for you to remember. Thank you all very much for coming along tonight. Thank you for participating and we hope to see you all again soon. Cheers.

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