Lesbian Visibility Day panel

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you in association with inside out in pride nz.com. [00:00:06] So to start us off, we'll do an introduction round. So name pronouns, how you identify if you want to say, anything else you want to add maybe where you live your age, but you don't have to go up here. [00:00:22] Okay, cool. I'll go first. I'm Craig, I am a lesbian. And I'm 37 I also identify as bisexual, because I also still have sex with men, but I'm like living this big lesbian marriage life. So that takes up 99% of my time. So that's what I identify as bisexual lesbian. And I, I also identify as Butch and as non binary because I think of what is a form of non binary gender. And so I use the pronouns he him because I'm just used to buying to my masculinity in that way. [00:00:58] Cool. So um, Sophie, [00:01:02] I'm a lesbian. [00:01:05] I use she her pronouns. [00:01:08] I'm also demisexual. So for those of you who might not know what that means, it's part of being on the asexual spectrum, and that I don't experience sexual attraction until I form an emotional bond with someone. I'm 20 years old, and I'm currently living in Wellington. I'm studying at Vic uni. So it's me [00:01:35] keota I'm Karen, and I use she her pronouns, and I identify as a lesbian. I'm 46 and I'm from the UK over here from the UK. So a lot of what I talk about today will probably be about my experience of growing up as a lesbian in the UK, but then also some thoughts about what that's what it looks like. In my mind here in New Zealand as well. So I live in Wellington. And I was invited on this as part of part of the call to bananas collective. So what was the lesbian radio show before? So that's just a few things about me. [00:02:15] Hi, I'm Donna, I use she her pronouns. And I identify as lesbian, but I also use the term Queer as a Yep. And I'm 16 and I live in Auckland. [00:02:32] Hi, I'm Aria, I your pronouns identify as a lesbian, but I also like to use the term sepik because [00:02:43] I'm 18 and I wasn't [00:02:48] awesome everyone I forgot to introduce myself I'm Nia, but I use he him well, they then pronouns I also identify as a lesbian and tucked away [00:02:58] so we'll get onto First question, what was your journey to claiming the term lesbian? And why do you use that term to describe your identity? [00:03:09] Okay, so I said I'd like a two step thing. First of all, I'm I'm young, and I'm growing up. And when I grow up, even I'm 37. I feel still quite young, but I'm like twice the age of most of the other panelists. So when I grew up in New Zealand, it was still like, not cool to be, we're not even acceptable to be lesbian or gay, or anything like that. They had legalized homosexuality, but society hadn't really fully kind of normalized it yet. And I grew up in a bigoted household. So it took me until I was sort of 18 and I fell in love to be like, Oh my god, I can't pretend that I'm not gay anymore. So that's when I first started identifying as a lesbian and mean, like a decade later, and I started wanting to, to have sex with men as well as with women and non binary folk. I I went, ah, yeah, that's, that's important and, and I want to live my life authentically. So I would identify as bisexual as well, but I also am a lesbian marriage, which is an open marriage. And so then I'm like, this is like literally, like, almost full time occupation. I so I'm so I'm so sad and bisexual that I'm like I live in. And I bet it's important to me. It's like I drink herbal tea all the time. That makes me a lesbian. [00:04:30] Nice. So I'm [00:04:34] gonna it's like such a long story. So I'm really going to try and like cut it down. And that when I was about eight or nine years old, I think it was [00:04:46] I was walking [00:04:49] next to the Nelson airport. And Nelson is where I grew up with my friend hope, and we were just like talking about how we just preferred woman that means I was like, Yeah, I like I just really relate to this. And she just turned around and just gave me a high five and say, welcome to the lease Boat Club. And that was just like the first instance of where, you know, suddenly there was an option other than heterosexuality. [00:05:27] But yeah, then it took a few years because, [00:05:30] you know, compulsory heterosexuality and all that, all that father's stuff. [00:05:37] But then it was, I mean, [00:05:40] once I kind of started seeing more lesbians, both like, fictional and in real life. As I grew up, it was kind of like, well, this is obviously what I am. [00:05:56] It took [00:05:58] think a little bit of time to actually think Seek the word lesbian. [00:06:03] because not many people like around me like in my friend circle, we're using it. Word bisexual was around like a lot. But lesbian was [00:06:16] almost seemed like a dirty word. And that, you know, it came with its own kind of [00:06:24] stereotypes. But then it was like, Yeah, well, I am a lesbian. So I like, I'm going to be a lesbian capital L kind of situation. And so I was just like, yeah, this is this is my label. This is what I'm going to use for now. [00:06:43] And that was really interesting to hear Sophie because there's some similarities in kind of my description as well or my you know, what I was going to talk about. So when I first saw this question, what was my journey to claiming the term there's boom, and why do I use that term to identify? I suddenly did have a passion I can think, oh, maybe I'm being a fraud. Because I kind of thought, actually, my journey to using the term lesbian is probably is probably still ongoing and actually a little bit similar to what Sophie was saying, When I was, I guess, coming out when back in the 80s, when early 90s in the UK, I was pretty comfortable that I was attracted to women. And found that bit, okay was pretty comfortable with that, and pretty comfortable with talking to people about it, but not the word lesbian. And so for a long time, I and others around me, kind of the friendship group that I would have been in, would have used gay and described ourselves as gay women. And that was for quite a number of years and to the point of probably, really, really almost rejecting the term lesbian because for some reason, it just felt not comfortable. We weren't hearing that word, talked about very much, not much visibility around the term and so almost To be trying to push the word away, not really kind of wanting to identify with that particular word, but identifying as being attracted to women. And that that felt comfortable, but the actual term lesbian didn't. So, yeah, so I still look at that question and think, ah, have I been some kind of fraud, because I think, as I've become older, I've kind of used the word more, and will use it and say, now that I identify as a lesbian, but it probably did take quite a long time. So So I find the term really, really interesting because for me, it did and I think for a lot of people, and certainly people I was socializing with it felt an uncomfortable term. And I still think there's a little bit of that now. So in certain situations now, certainly work situation. I probably choose to not use the word lesbian and describe myself as gay instead. So I do think there's a kind of change in the language for me anyway in different situations, because I still feel like If I use the word lesbian, there's often an uncomfortable reaction from other people. The term not being people just not being used to it. And I guess some kind of stereotype that goes with it. So for me, the journey is probably ongoing. But definitely as I got older, I identify with the term and the word a lot more than I did when I was younger. [00:09:23] I have think that that's similar, but that it's still something that I'm figuring out and like, I realized that I'm the youngest person on this panel. So I still I think I have a while before I figure out, like, Oh, yeah, right. Um, but yeah, I guess I would have been maybe 12 is when I kind of started thinking that it might be a good time for me because I knew that I was attracted to girls. I am really again The word before. Um, it did take a while to kind of figure that out. And a lot of that was through the we had, it doesn't exist anymore, but we used to have a really good kind of a curious a at school that had a lot of resources. That helped me a lot with coming to terms and trying to figure out like, what was the right word to use? I am still figuring it out. But that's something that helped me become comfortable with using the word listing up until now. [00:10:38] Well, [00:10:39] I don't have the best memory of what sort of prompted me to start questioning. For a long time I felt that any sort of solid questioning my sexuality around sort of high school, but then I sort of remembered this time that I don't know I was probably like, 12 or something like that, but I wasn't asleep to listen Friends and I came out to them wasn't great, but anyway, and I came out to them as vicarious because that just felt like a helpful thing to me. At that time, because I was questioning, I knew that I was probably attracted to women, but you know, like, compared [00:11:18] Yeah, so I sort of [00:11:20] used by Obi curious just sort of, for myself while I was still questioning because it felt like I was honoring my attraction to women without having to sort of commit to [00:11:35] a word like lesbian that kind of felt a bit scary. You know? [00:11:40] Yeah, I didn't find as by for quite a few years, and then I met through a few complicated labels sort of trying to incorporate them into my identity in the smallest way possible. I think one of the labels I used was on panromantic Let's sexual gay, and as an include lesbian that I didn't see at all, but um, yeah. Oh, by the way, let's sexual. I think it's funny. Mariah was you feel sexual attraction until it's reciprocated. So that was sort of like, [00:12:16] how am I called? It works with men, I guess. [00:12:21] Yeah. And then I think when I was 17, I was sort of just sitting, sitting down and like, actually, I don't think I am attracted to man. And I'm just trying to convince myself that I am because I feel like I should be. And I don't know if it was really much that convinced me to start using the term lesbian, but I just decided at that moment that I was going to use it even though it was hard, because it felt like it was the thing that represented me the best. I still describe myself as gay a little bit, but I really tried to use this VM even though it kind of it did feel like a bit of a dirty word. I knew that it was felt right. And I wanted to use it because it's not a dirty word. Yeah, so I've been using it and not me, it makes me feel completely sciency and I feel like I'm a part of a really awesome community. Yeah, and that's me. [00:13:22] Awesome, some great journeys here. And I think some good points raised that it's for a lot of us it is still a journey. It's still an ongoing thing. And, you know, this could change or it could stay the same and I think that's pretty cool. Um, so I I had a bit of a crisis before I didn't fight as a lesbian for a few years. I've always been like, Oh, I want to be a lesbian so bad, like, just seems so cool. Like I really admire every lesbian as a person. And then I was like, hang on, I had this moment of hang on why can't find a lesbian? They're a non binary lesbians, so why can't I be one of them and then I Thank you. So, um, next question, what are your thoughts on lesbian visibility? Why is it important? Do you think there is enough of it? [00:14:12] Um, for me, this is quite a tricky question. So I'll try to keep it short, because I'm not sure what my thoughts are on lesbian visibility. And with all whether there's enough of it, I would, I would just have to acknowledge that we're at a little bit of a difficult junction in history at the moment around some people trying to kind of ring fence and what being lesbian is and so they want lesbian visibility, but only for a specific, narrow little minority type of leads getting and I just think, if you feel that you are lesbians in your early investment, like full stop, and also you shouldn't be limited to just that one label. And there's a lot of other panelists have expressed in myself that there's like, you can, you're a complex person so you, you can believe in plus other stuff. [00:15:01] But I think that it's really important [00:15:03] that we push back against that ring fencing of what lesbian is. So I think that progressive lesbian visibility is really important in like, diversity is being visibility is really important. And obviously, it sounds like there's still quite a lot of shame for people that they have to fight in order to claim the term lesean. And so visibility should hopefully help to counter that as well. And yeah, I just think there's probably people out there perhaps not very political at all, and they just identify as lesbian and then they get faced with whatever kind of shaming stereotypes and things that society throws at them. So if they do get to see just positive representations of lesbians have all kinds of all different kinds, the index that would be really good for them? I would think yeah. [00:16:01] I this was a bit of a tricky question for me as well. But when I was reading it, I got reminded of when I was talking to [00:16:12] someone who identified as a lesbian, and someone who was quite older than me. [00:16:20] And she thought that lesbians were a dying breed, because she saw the younger generation and [00:16:30] I guess she she didn't see as many lesbians because [00:16:35] there's so many more labels now, I guess. What's her kind of stance? And, you know, she's all these like, bisexual and pansexual. So she was like, but we're all the lesbians. And same thing for like, says hit people. When I asked them like how many lesbians say no. They say like, Oh, I don't know any. Or they say like LMT. generous. Like that's like just like the one lesbian, but that's a Brexit. So this was Ellen DeGeneres. And so I know, it's an interesting question. And I do think they should maybe be a bit more of, I think, good lesbian visibility, because this comes up in a later question, but there are a lot of harmful stereotypes and myths, which just so wrong, and it's like, this isn't this isn't good for the like, I guess, the listing image. [00:17:40] And, yeah, I know a bit of a tricky question for me, I think. [00:17:46] Yeah, I guess I'm [00:17:48] actually a bit the creek and Sophia have already talked about in a sense, I think in the kind of short answer for me to the question of do we think there's enough Let's be a little bit visibility is No, and I think we're, you know, certainly the discussion so far is about lesbian visibility needing to be much broader than I guess, the stereotypes that may have been, we may have gotten used to over time and in the media and so on, and that maybe that's lesbian visibility. And I know, both of you have just kind of alluded to there being maybe thoughts of lesbian visibility needs to be a certain thing, it's a certain Look, it's a certain particular group of people. But the fact that we've all most of us have all talked about Still, the term lesbian still being something that people are still feeling uncomfortable about. And so, um, but I'm quite surprised at that talking as the [00:18:41] the oldest lesbian on the group. [00:18:44] And that and so I did think that that must have changed and I'm sure it has changed. But I'm still hearing people on this panel talk about the uncomfortableness of that word. So I guess in that sense, there isn't much lesbian visibility, if we're still talking Talking about people on this panel and whoever we're talking to feeling quite uncomfortable about the term. So I guess definitely feel like Well, that does still need to be more lesbian visibility, whatever that looks like. There's definitely the broadness and the diversity of it. But just the fact that we may be saying, Our, there's still a slight uncomfortableness about using the term and being open about being lesbian, then and says to me that yeah, that certainly doesn't need to be more lesbian visibility, whatever that looks like. [00:19:37] Yeah, I agree with a lot of what's just been said. And I think it is really important to have that visibility and have people in the media that we can see and identify with, and I think that I am starting to see more of it, but I don't Really think there's enough still? And part of that? Something that I was thinking about when I saw this question is that there's the amount of representation of like gay couples in the media that is still not a lot of like, you might see things. A lot of representation for other diverse identities, but then there's still not a lot in comparison of lesbians. And it's just, yeah, maybe related to gender equality as well. But it's just that it's great that we're fitting all of these other identities, but just, there's just a little bit of a gap in terms of English and I think it would be great to see more of that. [00:20:54] Yeah, I think in terms of representation in media, especially, there's a lot of focus on making lesbian representation palatable to others, when it's not our purpose as people to be held accountable to oppress others [00:21:12] with diverse people where it [00:21:15] started, where diverse people individually and where I am a diverse community together. And I think it's really important that we have accurate representation for the intersectionality and everything like that inside the Muslim community. Just sort of in terms of TV, or anything like that there's a lot of cookie cutter, cookie cutter molds, in terms of lesbian relationships, and yeah, I think it'd be really, really great to have more diverse representation. And I think that's important because when we see ourselves represented, Representative representatives around us in life on TV In terms of celebrities, whatever is easier to accept them and not be able to accept others it becomes easy to accept ourselves. So yeah, I think it's really important and they definitely should be a bit more. [00:22:15] Wow, just some amazing points from everyone. I I definitely agree that we need not only more representation, but more positive representations and stuff where we're not. The lesbian on screen isn't cheating on people. They're not. They don't die in the end. They're not a terrible person, just those sorts of things. Um, next question is, are there any myths or stereotypes about being a lesbian that you'd like to bust? So we've touched on this a little bit, but if you'd like to go more in depth? [00:22:51] Um, well, my my own experience, I guess it's kind of an offshoot of being a lesbian as being Butch. So it's more of a butch jinda stereotype but [00:23:00] it is often very [00:23:02] closely bound up with lesbian stereotype, because I guess a lot of stereotypical lesbians out butches maybe with is that that know lesbians are blurred. And, and but then also just like that Butch people are not kind of, like aggressive. They don't always take the traditional men role in a, for example, a butch femme relationship. And I would, yeah, like, I'm really soft, I'm really submissive. I'd really love to see like, that whole stereotype that bush as a gender means any one particular thing kind of busted, like the idea that any like the any gender has to do any particular thing to be their gender, that would be really great to be busted. So just, yeah, but sharpness is a thing and push submission. Sexually is a thing and yeah, that's all from me. [00:24:00] I mean, there's just so many myths and stereotypes that I just think need to be adjusted because like, they, I mean, if that if you are researching into being a lesbian, and you find all of these portrayals of lesbians in a certain way, and you know, they have all these stereotypes, it can be really harmful because you think that you need to be the Certain Way in order to actually be like a lesbian. And when it's just not true. Something I would really like to be busted personally as this. This whole idea that seems to be like, says hit girls, like, all the lesbians in the world are pursuing them, and they want to convert them to lesbian ism. And it's like, oh, my God, and they like, all we want to do is just like, have sex with them. And it's like, also like as a semi sexual lesbian. Like [00:24:59] I sometimes Anyone have six foot [00:25:00] by other lesbians like about anyone like they align with like straight girls like [00:25:07] but yeah, that's just like from me. Definitely like not sexualizing lesbians and not fetishizing lesbians and just like taking out that horse. [00:25:21] Yeah, I agree with a lot of what's been said so far. I guess for me, particularly the some of the stereotypes that go with being particularly Butch. [00:25:33] It's going to be a constant source of disappointment for me that I can't use power tools. I just thought it would happen naturally. [00:25:42] So those kind of those kind of stereotypes, yeah. Are you frustrated? And be great to that'll be my stereotypes to bust Yeah. [00:25:53] Yeah, I'm just going off what Sophie said about, like, boosting representation and then thinking You need to be a certain way that you see portrayed. I think that can also be harmful. And if you're still coming to terms with your identity, and, you know, think wondering whether you are a lesbian, or whether that's the right term, if you see the very stereotypical portrayal, and that's not how you act, then it can be quite invalidating to see that, like, I don't have that way, therefore, I can't use the term lesbian. And that can be, you know, quite harmful for someone who's figuring out the identity. If that's [00:26:40] I think that's, yeah, that's something that should [00:26:46] um, yeah, so my first thought for the song was actually quite similar to creeks and it was that not every single lesbian relationship is much for him or Facebook. Yeah, because everyone's identity and everyone's presentation in terms of those things are different. And there wasn't any source in the mold. That's at least the end, or at least in relationships should be to be fitting into or should have to fit into. Yeah. And they'll do what someone said exactly. If all you see of the community is I don't know what to say you can use power tools or people who know everything about astrology. And you don't know things like that, Oh, you don't enjoy things like that it can feel very invalidating like, I can't be a lesbian because it comes out or I don't know, things about astrology idea. When in reality, it's the whole community is this community of lots of different people who enjoy doing lots of different things and presenting lots of different ways and I did find lots of different ways and I'm I can take a while to find exactly what you said there. But um if you feel like you need to or you feel like I did fine as Elise fits you then it does and you belong to my community and it's really hard to figure that out maybe there's so many stereotypes sort of bring us down. And the other factor is that a lot of female and non binary sexuality is assumed to be catered to men. So it's it's very, it can be hard to discover that you are a lesbian when when you realize that oh my goodness, my sexuality isn't about me and for the most part. [00:28:46] Yeah, if that makes sense, that's me. [00:28:51] Definitely made sense. Well said. I know I've said this like three times already, but so many great points here. I'm one One stereotype that hasn't been brought up that's a very recent one is the idea of a useless lesbian. Like if another lesbian called me that in a joking way, maybe I'd be okay with it. But like if if like a non lesbian called me that I'd be like, excuse me. They I think it's a pretty the idea that all lesbians have bad romance. I think it's a bit of a upsetting one. [00:29:27] Um, okay. [00:29:29] Do you have any favorite lesbian representation in media or lesbian icons? [00:29:35] I just like to say I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that about useless please give this brand new to me. I've never heard that before. And I'm, I'm sorry that it's coming at you younger once. What a load of shit. And favorites, our favorite lesbian representation and media or lesbian icons. That's [00:29:52] the question, isn't it? Um, [00:29:54] yeah, I really loved the outward generation coup. I don't know if people have seen that. Back in my day, we actually like The L Word, as well. But if we looked at it now, I'd be like, no, it's problematic and all kinds of ways, but the R word generation Q, they've obviously made a special effort to include like people of color, trans lesbians, trans people who are not lesbians, just like more broader queer identities that aren't often seen so much in mainstream television. There's Butch lesbians, which notably, there were not that many Butch lesbians in the original our and, and also on the on TV, same thing, whatever you call it. platform thing is a show called work in progress. It's just yeah, it's about this very, [00:30:46] very Butch [00:30:47] Dyke, [00:30:48] who then kind of gets like sideswiped by falling in love with the young trans men and then the relationship and also she has OCD. So it's just funny. Like, [00:30:59] it's a Great show, but it makes me so mad. She's terrible as well. [00:31:03] I don't necessarily recommend it. But yeah, I've, I've found that on neon TV. There are some great representations, I think [00:31:13] in terms of favorite lesbian representation and media. [00:31:18] I mean, I like going off, I had quite a few. But then [00:31:23] a lot of them died and got killed off. So like, Yeah. Which is not a great thing to see. So I'm not going to just mention any of them because, yeah, it hurts when you identify with someone or with a character so much. And then, you know, and especially when you're young, and they kind of become like a lifeline, and then they just die. And that's just gone from your life. It's just, it's Yeah, it's really painful. But um, I won't stay with positivity here. And currently. I don't know if any of you watch it. But, gentlemen jack is one that I am really, really loving. And it's about an lista who is just iconic in every single way possible. And it's it's been like 18 I think it starts in 1849 that starts. So it's like, very much I think affirming to, you know, go back that far. And there was this. [00:32:32] This this just absolute lesbian, just an absolute icon. What streaming on, um, watch. [00:32:43] I use like my flatmates bosses thing to watch it which is called Plex. But I'll see if I can find it might be on white box or something like that. I'll, I'll get back to you on that. [00:32:56] That's in terms of lesbian icons. [00:33:01] Sappho [00:33:04] and [00:33:09] I also like very much This isn't like, confirmed or whatever but like [00:33:15] if any of you know the goddess Artemis [00:33:19] like I definitely read her as a lesbian. [00:33:24] So yeah, like, oh, and like Hayley kiyoko I don't know. Yeah. [00:33:30] But yeah, I just, yeah, I just like, love lesbians. [00:33:36] And that's hard to follow. So things just ended and I just love lesbians. [00:33:42] Where do I go from there? Yeah, I'll just eventually I guess to again, speaking as a slightly older lesbian on the panel. the kind of people that we sometimes refer to bit stereotypically like Ellen and like Katie Lange. And I just mentioned because at the time they were Quite mind blowing when there were not many lesbian representations around. And so for me that those people that are that have kind of taken on a whole other persona and that they're often used quite negatively and things like that, but actually at the time, especially someone like Elon, where we were kind of watching it thinking, I think she might be a lesbian, but at that point, she hadn't come out. And then for Katie Lange, to then, you know, be so kind of out there and looking different and being so open, they weren't quite mind blowing at that point that that they would be there and you know, I'm sure for hundreds and thousands of people they were something to hang it on and think Ah, okay, though, lesbians are out there. So, I guess for me, though, you know, those kind of older icons kind of thing would be pretty significant. And right now, are The L Word Creek I'll need to watch the new L Word because when the R word first came out I did not take Because we will, me and my friends would watch it and think I don't actually relate to this and and somehow it became quite negative. It was like, Oh, I'm not living that life. And so I'm not cool enough. And I know the R word is huge and people love it. But I have heard the new one is quite different. So I might try that. No recommended it. But like right now I'm really loving some of the comedians really. So people like Hannah Gadsby and kind of what they're doing, I guess, for just being able to talk about lesbian culture and again, just that visibility. So those would be a few kind of thoughts for me Really? [00:35:39] Well, yeah, I'm not really sure about, like, icon. Exactly. But I do have, like, definitely, places where I've seen please, just like, out amazing. I have Hayley kiyoko, of course. And there's a few During a bit of a blank, but just lesbian musicians in general, it's just great to when you listen to a song, and it's a woman singing about another woman, just It's a great feeling. Um, yeah, I Oh, yes, kingpin says Yes, definitely. Um Oh, I just thinking about this. It's just great that there's more and more that there's so many. Yeah. So, yes. Please be musicians. All of the ones in the comments. Absolutely. Love them. Yeah. [00:36:45] Oh, wait, do I stop? Um, I didn't really agree with Sophie that it's awesome to see. These peon representation that's been around for a long time, like literally two days ago, I think I went on a research build binge of [00:37:03] like, letters that women had written other women. [00:37:08] I we've done a bit of a rabbit hole sort of reading things that I can read colorful Emily Dickinson, Dickinson, Virginia Woolf, people like that had written their mothers. And that was really nice to see sort of these things that are 100 or more years old that actually kind of almost represents similar experiences to me and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I feel so validated. [00:37:32] Exactly also great. We love definitely agree on this as well. [00:37:38] I'm in terms of TV shows, and movies. I'm not I'm not sure. I always have a bone to pick with every single item of representation that I'd say. Find something wrong with the bus no matter what it is, but um, I think I used to watch Supergirl and I quite liked um, Alex Denver's story on that. Everything he was saying it I haven't watched it in a while so I don't actually know how it turned out but um yeah, that was cool. [00:38:08] And also everything sucks on Netflix. It's the said. [00:38:13] But it's it's, I liked it. Yeah. [00:38:19] And also call it that movie we're here in Atlanta. This will be a warning that I want to is about sexual but it was. It was a good one. I liked it. Um, I think at this point my girlfriend would want to plug Steven Universe I don't watch it, but it's apparently good. And yeah, definitely agree with musicians. I personally love King princess and also Pussy Riot in terms of some sort of, you know, angry leads in [00:38:54] singing, you know? It's nice to see [00:38:59] ya Really well I would say [00:39:03] lots of great people to check out now on my list [00:39:07] can I quickly just like add something sorry I real quick I just want to show everyone my shirt [00:39:15] I've seen this way and I love it [00:39:17] got all of like chips on it have like clear women so I've got like clock Alexa from 100 did not watch that burn Lauren from last girl, Nicole and Waverly from my Nana, Christina and Delphine from all from back, Elena and said for one day at a time, Davis and Sawyer is from Supergirl like Ariana mentioned Camila and Laura which is Camila the web series about a lesbian vampire if any of you are into that. Kelly in Arizona from Grey's Anatomy, Sara and I have a from legends of tomorrow. We're in show from personal interest, Alex and Piper from oranges, new black in Atlanta and Kate from everything that I carried that I'm Elisa and Noemi from sandwich normally is a trans woman. Okay, Anna, Dina from a bold type Esther and Vivian from everyone but you and well known Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So there's more it's [00:40:13] just another guy left so many good things to check out coming. [00:40:16] Um [00:40:20] honestly anything I just, I have a lot of lesbian icon characters that aren't actually lesbians I just decide they are randomly because I want them to be. [00:40:30] Um, [00:40:32] next question is, are there any symbols that have been important to you as a lesbian? [00:40:39] Well, I when I look back at my childhood photos, I'm like, there's at least two of my class photos. I'm wearing basically the trans flag which hadn't even been invented yet at this stage. So I really love pink and blue and white together. And I used to really actually love the pink triangle like I think I like pink and I like trains. But today unfortunately it's kind of been sullied by like it's become practice and boulders, and used by those like ringfence since it off like the lesbian police who don't want anyone to be a lesbian they just only want the people that they've given permits to to be lesbians and so it's kind of now maybe more of a dangerous symbol. And it's really sad I missed that just being kind of like a cool dark symbol. So that's it really that's all I got to say. [00:41:32] I think the first thing I really identified with was like the rainbow flag, and like rainbows in general, but oh, this is gay now like a coat. And then I found out that there was a lesbian flag and I was like, Oh, cool. What's this about? And then I found out that the lesbian flag that I saw, which is like, I don't know if everybody here knows that like the lipstick lesbian flag. It originally had Like the lipstick mark in the corner, and it's done in shades of like weird pink and white. And that was made by probably I would I like, I'd say that she would be a member of the lesbian police family. And so it's not really Representative presentative of our, [00:42:22] like our entire community. [00:42:23] And [00:42:25] then I found out about the community lesbian flag, which is much more wholesome. And it's got like the orange in it as well as like, um, shades of pink. And so I think I probably identify with that one a bit more now. But like, my goal is definitely still like very much like, I play a starring role in like, my decor and like the badges and pens I have and stuff like that. Um, something else, which also this is a bit sad actually like symbols I think of like In light of it corrupted by the libres, like the double bladed battle AX. [00:43:07] I think that's really cool. Um, and then violets because [00:43:15] yeah, like from a line in SFO poem by her brow was adorned with violence or something like that. So it became a thing for like, if you [00:43:27] like, like a woman you would give her violence and, and also lavender. This one is a bit more like obscure, but back when like the Red Scare was happening in America, and everybody was like ooh communism lesson known as the lavender scare, where it was like the whole kind of, I guess thinking behind it was that gay people were more likely to be communists. Because they could be black males, and therefore could be, you know, secret agents and stuff like that. So [00:44:09] there's like this kind of been reclaimed, I guess like the term leaven Dominus if any of you have ever heard about that, or CNN? So, yeah. [00:44:22] Yeah, I think [00:44:25] I found this one quite hard to think about, I guess I then probably thought I actually don't have many particular lesbian symbols that I've ever thought about or identified with. And probably because it's been, I've ended up kind of intertwine more with the rainbow kind of images and symbols and things like that. And maybe just kind of in my thinking about this question. It made me think I wonder if that's part of the kind of almost wanting to stand, push away the lesbian part sometimes just the terminology and like overtime, I just want If that's why I'm not hooked into lesbian symbols over time. But yeah, so for me that I find that quite a tricky question. And again, I think specific to kind of add to that really other than feeling like it's kind of been overtaken with the more of the rainbow imagery, and more of the kind of broad gay community in the tree than specifically lesbian. [00:45:20] Yeah, I kind of agree that I mean, I'm aware of at least been symbols, but I generally prefer the ones like just rainbows in general that encompass the whole rainbow community. I think part of that is because I don't have a lot of other people close to me who release games but I do know a few who identify with other terms that under the rainbow umbrella side, I like more the rainbow flag and rainbow ribbons and things like that, because it's kind of reminded that I placed in, isn't it identity but then it also fits into this whole big range of identities and it makes me feel connected to those other people which I think is quite nice. [00:46:10] Um, personally, I do like to remember things but I also quite like things that are more specific to museum and all cific and other women loving women identities because it feels more personal to me and makes me feel presented because it is represented because it is accurately accurately representing me and how I'm attracted to how identify [00:46:40] Yes, if that makes sense. I thought like the violets as well. [00:46:47] Once that was a good one. [00:46:49] And also another line from a sefo bomb. It's not really a symbol, but just the term like girls sweet boys. It just resonates with me. I like it. Um, and yeah, in terms of the flags I really like the origin the pink one that one feels feels really really true to sort of my personal definition and understanding of being a lesbian just to clarify this it doesn't have to lipstick mouth on it this was a gift from a very well being friends and I do I do kind of I did hold that one as well but I do prefer the orange yeah [00:47:35] yeah, that's really all I say. [00:47:37] Great points. I I also agree I don't really relate to some of the lesbian symbols because I'm pretty new to identifying as a lesbian so I'm still sort of getting used to that. Um, does anyone have any Vega there's a quote Sweet Mother I cannot there's a good Yeah, sweet mother. I cannot waive effort. It has struck me with longing for a go by Safa. Relate big, big Time. Does anyone have any questions for this wonderful panel of lesbians that you have at your disposal to answer some questions? [00:48:14] What's everyone's slice anyone reading right now? [00:48:18] I am reading I'm just about finished a book by Albert Wint, who's a New Zealand Samoan author, and it's called the adventures of villa. And it's been really, really amazing. Quit like pan quit kind of book. He just traverses. It's an epic poem. So, like, it's not my favorite format, book, promise, but it's an epic poem. And he just traverses the whole entire history of both gender and sexuality from a Pacifica specifically from a sample and perspective through through the story of veiler, who's a chronicler of like the sun on God's and everything in the goddess Nephi. Noah is presented in a very lesbian way, although the word lesbian might be used once in the book, but he sort of steers clear of European kinds of labels for things, most for the most part that she's very recognizable, or she would I think she would be very recognizable to, to palani as well as to someone's as a queer female character. And yeah, just, it's just full of queer characters, which is it doesn't mean that on the back of the book, so that wasn't when I started reading it. When I picked it up. I was just like, Oh, yeah, sounds interesting. I'll give it to God. It's like, whoa, whoa, well, why isn't this book famous and well known? Yeah. So I really recommend that. [00:49:48] The only thing I'm reading like [00:49:52] I read these days is just you have nothing to like add like that. Maybe like the chapter of like issues with political theory on gender. Maybe I could recommend that but yes, it's like I'm sad because I didn't get to bring any of my book collection with me when I moved to Wellington so they're all back in Nelson now. [00:50:13] Oh, maybe fanfiction there we go [00:50:16] accessible on the internet easily like run shots or like you can read like multiple chapters. And you just like check on a pairing and just go from it. So [00:50:28] um, well, that's not really amazing book per se but I'm we're I'm reading on the hippopotamus by Stephen Fry. It's all right. But wouldn't wouldn't entirely recommend it. Um, other than that, sort of dipping in and out of poetry books in my collection, you know. And then after after I'm finished with that. I've got a book that's been sitting on my bookshelf for a while that I found at like a local sort of a good He can say secondhand bookstore called women on women free. I don't know if it'll be any good. Like Harvey who was five but yes, like a collection of lesbians epic stories? Yeah. [00:51:14] Yeah, this isn't a lesbian book either, but I just started reading call me by name. Because it's been recommended by quite a few people. And so yeah, I don't have anything to say about it yet. But I'm hoping that it'll be quite good. [00:51:32] I'm not reading it currently. But I have this book called lesbian surveys, and I'll tell our, and I can't wait, that sounds very interesting. Awesome. Well, thank you, everyone, for coming. I think there's been some really great points and discussions talked about here. Big round of applause for our lovely panel of lesbians. Thanks, area. Thanks, Karen. Thanks, Sophie. Thanks so much. Thanks. [00:51:57] Thanks, Craig. It was great. [00:52:00] Indeed

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