Julie Glamuzina - Creating Our Stories

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by pride in z.com. And funded through a generous grant from the Legacy Fund of the second Asia Pacific Outgames. [00:00:10] Well, my name is Julian Muslim. And [00:00:15] the most important thing about myself, I think, is that on the list. So that's how I identify in terms of our histories, queer, transgender, this guy, I think we're just at the beginning is heaps of stuff that we can do. And there are heaps of resources. And we shouldn't be put off by comments from the straight world or any other world saying, there's nothing we don't exist or, you know, there isn't enough. [00:00:45] And so it's up to us to search out in find [00:00:50] our history in redefine histories, [00:00:54] which have been given a straight, straight interpretation. So we can look at the world and look it up from a queer view, at least in view, gay view, transgender view, as we wish, my history background, I have a history background, General History Background. And in terms of my research, [00:01:15] I'm particularly interested in taking [00:01:21] my interest, my lesbian view of the events which have affected me, the events which have hit all of us, and trying to uncover more about how our communities have survived and lived in installed it. So I suppose one of my [00:01:41] what I think is an important piece of research was around the Parker and him murder case. So I did that with [00:01:50] Alice and Laurie. So we looked at that case, from a lesbian perspective, and try to understand why the reaction and what was the impact of that case, in particular on these events in New Zealand. [00:02:05] Subsequently, I also did a chronology, a booklet called out front, which was an attempt at noting significant events, which we had been involved in, and kind of as a trigger, or kind of as an aid to, to show what can be done, and hopefully inspire other people to fill in all the gaps of which they were meaning and to extend, [00:02:36] you know, into start building up a big repository of our industries. [00:02:43] And I'm currently working on another project been lingering on this for some time. [00:02:50] So yeah, I think this this hipster, [00:02:53] prior to the two pieces of research that you've talked about, are you aware other research and museum that has looked at kind of queer histories prior to the price, but [00:03:08] I think, yeah, in the work of, for example, [00:03:17] people who were active and changing the homosexual law, or the law relating time, seashells in New Zealand, also, I'm just one other line, I have to say that there are these beings who were recording and keeping artifacts, and trying to write up aspects of our histories. [00:03:41] Some names, so yeah, just wonder who kept the waxing moon archives. And I'm private premises, which we sort of leaving out effects from, from here and overseas as well. [00:03:57] Heaps of people who were sort of collecting and writing when I was at Oakland University. [00:04:06] Women were writing in the broad spreadsheet, which was a few minutes magazine, [00:04:13] stuff about these fields and the gay world. And [00:04:19] I mean, there have been a number of people across the gay lesbian communities who have recorded and tried to keep track of, you know, the things which have impacted their lives. And in this country, [00:04:34] when you're coming to the research topic, how do you find those sources? If they are just individuals keeping documents themselves or private archives? [00:04:43] Yeah, well, I think that's, that's difficult. [00:04:47] I think, as with any history, there's, there's problems of, you know, digging up stuff. [00:04:54] And then the established sort of straight water, suppose there are some, you know, obvious, the news, there are obvious resources, we have access to the same resources. But in our case, it is often a matter of reinterpreting in reading between the lines of what's available in terms of people with it with their own archives. Sometimes it's luck, sometimes it's chance. Sometimes, I mean, you just have to try and interview and follow leads, since you're kind of like a detective. Yeah. So that's, that is the same problem of any history, I think that we have particular, we have particular obstacles, because we have obstacles in the moment, in the sense that [00:05:51] I think, as general society doesn't want us to exist in before is [00:05:58] not helpful. [00:06:01] And negative and obstacles. And we have obstacles in the past as well, and that [00:06:10] our activities are not recorded for what they are, and we are not recorded as we are. And I know that the whole year to our quarter, Katie has done considerable research in the Syria, she noted once during a speech, that even in death, we are colonized. So that, [00:06:34] you know, the family often will destroy at effects that belonged to a homosexual or gay or lesbian or transgender person, and try and sanitize the lives and the diff. [00:06:49] So there are things like that, that we, you know, that create greater difficulties for us. [00:06:58] There is the interpretation of alive, so so people will say, oh, there's two women who live together, they're great friends, they love to get it for 50 years, and she had the same room, but it's great friends. [00:07:12] So we have to look into perhaps dig a little bit deeper talk to people who knew them try and find out more about their lives and how they lived it. What was the, you know, who did they relate to? Mostly with the energies and so on? And perhaps, put four different interpretations? [00:07:33] Do you have some examples of obstacles that have been put up like, like, dude, you know, families that have thrown out queer related material for persons want? [00:07:42] Yeah, I do. And I know, instances we business died. And so there's been a, you know, a fear, or we're where we have been allowed to be. And then they've had, you know, the sanitized funeral with the family and separate event. So [00:08:04] yeah, I think this is quite I don't know, how widespread about this in there are instances of it. [00:08:10] You mentioned reading between the lines, what are you looking for what what are the things that kind of jump up as a flag, [00:08:16] okay, so things like [00:08:20] two men or two women living together, or there's some circumstance in which, you know, these [00:08:26] events have occurred, some kind of relationship. [00:08:31] Frequently, especially, let's say, take the newspapers, say, the 19th century newspapers in the 20th century than just just newspaper records. Often, our communities appear in the course of some criminal, you know, supposedly, some criminal activities, or criminal events or a murder or, [00:08:54] you know, something which has drawn those people that person to the attention of the authorities. [00:09:04] And been, it's become visible, because there's been a court case, or someone was murdered, or a place was raided. And there's a description about what was going on and the place. So I think that's an obvious there's obvious starting points, and then start to dig into the background and see what [00:09:30] happened, or [00:09:34] there was some fight, and what was it about who are the people and then go from there. So it's like, you've got just a little grip, there's a tiny little toehold on on on something. And then to see if you can work it from the there may be other other records associated. So So let's start with the newspaper record, and then go to the [00:09:57] police records the year before lots of other government agencies who were involved in that kind of, in that particular event. [00:10:07] The other commentaries on that case, so is the further commentary few months later in the same newspaper, or, or other newspapers. And so look at the contemporary reports, and [00:10:22] see if other sources have mentioned additional information in so from the you can start to build up some kind of picture. Next, the papers or another another step is to put on the context. So find out about what's going on in that place at that time. So that certainly in 1920s, [00:10:48] or 1930s, what's going on there? What are the people doing? What are the general sources that are talking about life at that time? And the pips we've some of them as well. And they may be comment comments about, or information about what was going on at the time, in the 30. So for example, depression, so they may be sources about the depression that [00:11:13] might illuminate something that you're looking at from another angle. So you can piece together. But until you get more of a more of a picture. I mean, historians are doing that all the time anyway, because we were there. So we've got to make it up to some, I mean, obviously not [00:11:32] not making up a fantasy. But it's we are imposing our minds and our thoughts and our interpretations all the time on the world around us in the world, as we try and picture in our minds from the things that we read about something that happened 200 years ago, 100 years ago. So we're making it up. [00:11:54] But But I mean, in our case, it's [00:11:59] it's a similar problem to say, the records around working class as opposed to politicians, and [00:12:09] you know, the rich, and there's a lot of documentation around the activities and might be out effects, houses, they lived in things they owned objects they owned and so on. [00:12:23] But I think in our case, these these also. [00:12:28] Yeah, I mean, I mean, basically, I see that we as a priest, and we've been some priestess communities, and we've been muted. [00:12:38] We've been putting to jail we've been put in to get them into treatment. [00:12:49] Yeah. So [00:12:51] that's reflected and how things are recorded as well. So I know for a fact to that I'm Wellington. In the 70s 80s, when I was here, [00:13:04] we protested against the Willington bustles because they wouldn't allow us to HIV AIDS, advertising, some lesbian community resources. And, and the newspaper wouldn't carry the word lesbian. [00:13:21] And prior to that, sometimes they would put gay in quotes. So these those kinds of things that sort of, you know, some make it harder, because they're not so many. They're not as many resources as they might be. But again, we have to read between the lines. [00:13:35] And I'm wondering, is the specific words that you're looking for? Like, I mean, you say that, you know, the newspaper wouldn't print the word lesbian? [00:13:44] Yeah, look for words, like, pivot or unnatural or? [00:13:51] Yeah, kind of derogatory teams used for us. Very, sometimes I'd use Korea very early on newspapers would just quit not as we use it, but that's what kind of you What are probably early 19th century, early 20th century. [00:14:10] It was a queer night. And but they don't necessarily mean, you know, as we wouldn't do for them. Yeah. [00:14:19] Yes. So the other thing is, I think I see it was looking at the relationships that are what what were the people doing? And why were they involved with each other? Why would these two women be in a boarding house together? With an assumed name? For example? Why would to mean be in a park late at night? together? In? [00:14:45] So you think, is it? Is it some criminal deal going on or Pepsi game in meeting up? Because there's nowhere else? Because it's what we want to do or know. You? [00:14:59] That's usually the derogatory kinds of teams that might lead you to think there's something not quite [00:15:08] it's not quite straightforward. So let's see what, what what else is happening? Yeah. [00:15:14] Yes, for for women, you might look to see women who were friends for a long time, [00:15:22] that kind of diminishing, diminishing weeds take away from what does it you know, will be a sexual relationship or, you know, obviously, a long term partnership [00:15:37] with boundaries dressed, or described as being looking like men or dressed Manish Lee, or, you know, walking ministry, or there was a case of a woman [00:15:49] around World War One in Wellington, and she was described as you know, creasing rather me initially, and she was actually intend on Sam's Island, because they thought she was a potentially a spy for the, for the Germans. [00:16:06] And she had a, she was not English extract. And she was described as sort of working closely with another woman who was a doctor. [00:16:18] So immediately, I think we're in a relationship. And perhaps there was more to that [00:16:26] circumstance than than meets the eye. So yeah, things like that. [00:16:30] But do you think that it would be easy to read too much into things? I'm thinking that maybe in a newspaper of that time, they might be wanting to other the person? And so to speak? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how do you know that this is like a relationship? Or how do you know, it's just somebody trying to be other? [00:16:52] Yeah. And in some cases, I don't think you can. You can't know. Because you don't have enough information in I think. [00:17:02] I think hopefully not erroneous, Lee, I think I'm a little bit more conservative in my approach. And so I would, [00:17:11] it is easy to go too far, I think can make up inside this is what it was, when you don't really nice. But we can say, I wonder whether this might have been the case, because the straight historian looking at it might immediately say, Oh, well, these women were obviously blah, blah. And so I would say well night, why do you make that assumption that the heterosexual? [00:17:38] I might make an assumption, I'm coming from a point of view, whether it's possible that the least possible those mean, like I mean, so, you know, there's perhaps it's equally valid, it's probably more valid to wonder that with these, you know, other indicators, such as we talked about? So I would say, we can certainly raise the questions, and we can certainly start to, you know, as other other succeed, query artist, queer, the history, the history is, stultified and stratified. [00:18:13] And we need to clear it and say, Well, actually, it could be less. So why do you immediately say, Oh, that's a straight relationship. [00:18:22] So we can certainly do that. And I think, now I'm always we I'm talking about someone who actually lived in like, it's another person, we're talking about people. So if someone was looking at my life and saying stuff, they'll say a whole lot of things that I wouldn't say, or I might say, I might be happy with what they're saying, or I might not. But people can look and see and make their own conclusions. And as a story, and I can look and see and make my own conclusions, but I can't say Oh, I know that this is what that person thought, because I'm not in the minds. [00:18:58] But I can say, well wonder if this was not the case. And here are the things that lead me to think the end. And even if I have very limited information, I can still wonder because I want to have a different perspective on the world. I come from this perspective, which is at least one. And so queer story. So all, from a queer point of view, I would say this about the case, as opposed to, you know, if I was straight, straight, the story might say something different. [00:19:27] We can certainly do that. [00:19:28] So you've talked about newspapers as a kind of great starting point. And you've mentioned things like police records and other types of records. How easy is it to actually access things like police records and or health records? And look at somebody kind of sexuality? [00:19:45] Yeah, it's quite, I think, and well, it can be difficult, depending on the time, because in some cases, there's time periods. [00:19:54] And you know, that look at the records until after, you know, 50 years or 60 years or something like that. And, and so that means you can't do anything because you can't use those records. Unless you've got permission. Sometimes the permission has to be from a family member. Sometimes you may not, it may not be a family member, or you haven't identified of him your family member or you don't know who they might be, without even if you did what they give permission. So yeah, there are difficulties around that. But that shouldn't stop us from trying and asking for access. I've access defense records. [00:20:35] And sometimes the record stating deserves to have been destroyed. I know in my own case, one research this particular document, it's got a reference in this and it just has disappeared. It is not anywhere to be found. [00:20:49] But the references the end, it's so frustrating, because it's quite an important refunds. [00:20:57] But what's happened to her God knows, sets was filed, or perhaps it's been destroyed when the government departments have reorganized and and when when stuff has been digitized. I worry that things might be might drop drop to index, things might be missed. [00:21:16] But yeah, I think there are some difficulties. But having said that, it is it is possible to request records into see, for example, in the pattern human case, we were given access to the prison records. And we were able to view the moon, I will take them away, but we were able to sit and read the prison records. [00:21:42] So that was really good. And this [00:21:43] is even when the people concerned are still alive. [00:21:46] Yeah, yeah, it's right. So it just depends on what the rules are around a particular archive. [00:21:53] So how does that how does that work with the person records? In that case? [00:21:57] In what respect in terms of [00:22:00] how were you able to access material when the people are still alive? And did they have to give permission, or [00:22:06] No, they didn't, the records belong to the museum government. And we were doing research at the time and we had a grantee. [00:22:16] This was prior to publication of our book, weed around to look at the social impact the impact of that case, [00:22:24] in this country, so we were recognized as it was helpful to have those credentials behind us to say, we, we need to, or we would like to see these records to fill in the picture. I think as a private individual, that's a little bit harder, because [00:22:44] you may not see you is better for it. And it's probably a bit easier if you belong in an institution, or you have that kind of academic credential behind you. But I didn't think that's an title blocker. [00:23:00] But maybe an easier and easier path for you is to either partner with an organization or [00:23:06] perhaps enroll in a program or something so that you know, these controls over it may take away some issues around your you know, your access to material. [00:23:17] So in that situation, you are able to research the material, but then were you able to actually publish it, were you able to you [00:23:23] do anything with it, sometimes the their rolls around the use of the material, and you should abide by those rules. [00:23:32] But [00:23:34] in that particular instance, can't recall all the all the all the rolls around. But we were able to, we were able to use the material. Sometimes you can't directly quite, but at the very least that gives you a picture. So you know you're [00:23:52] you can have it in your mind was part of the background of the week without necessarily quoting and going No, my invading someone's [00:24:04] private [00:24:06] records or like [00:24:10] people a deed it's a little bit easier. But not that easy, either. Because there are there are families involved. I think one of the issues we have to deal with us, as also the families don't, some families don't necessarily want people to know that they're [00:24:25] the Father, the mother, the sister, the brother, the child, the son, the daughter is is changing the sky is least being as clear. And [00:24:39] and it's those, those the homophobia and the [00:24:46] the restrictions of those people. [00:24:49] And so it's it can be hard to get through them. [00:24:53] But you just have to move around with that. [00:24:57] Maybe we should also just briefly explain what the pilot replace was. [00:25:01] Ok. Yes, it is. [00:25:05] The park of human case refused to the incident in 1954. We're Juliet him and pulling Parker together [00:25:16] method pulling back as mother [00:25:20] in Christ huge. In they were the case was totally sensational. Media from all around the world pain came to New Zealand to cover the trial. And it's the focus of it's been the focus of plays, novels, itself compendium of criminal cases, the world's wisdom, meters, etc. [00:25:47] innocence. [00:25:50] This had great public attention here. And there was a lot of focus on the nature of the relationship between delete him and pulling Parker, which was perceived as least be a mom. And I mean, we went through with a lesbian with a not. And the point is that we're perceived, at least in so we focused on fact that they're perceived as lesbian [00:26:15] means that they're treated in a certain way and certain pates of that on lesbians in New Zealand and on the general public. So that was our focus. [00:26:27] And so it was that always been angle, part of the prosecution case or [00:26:33] the prosecution said that they were dirty minded girls out for experience in that they will this relationship was part of the badness of them. And the defense tried to say, Well, no, they went to bed that were made. And so relied upon a serious defeat, serious psychological construct called Fotolia. Do you see though made together, separately, okay, but made together and this is how they came to [00:27:02] murder. Pauline's mother, they were found guilty, which is probably better for them, because they're put in prison and not a mental institution. [00:27:13] And they saved [00:27:16] 556 years and in Julia tomb was released, and on the release on probation, in Julia change, went overseas to join the mother. and pulling Parker was on probation, and you see on for a few years, and then eventually live in New Zealand. [00:27:35] But it was quite an important, it was a significant case. [00:27:40] For these fans and New Zealand, for example, [00:27:44] one woman said, We interviewed quite a number of these fans to say, Well, did that case impact on them? And how that goes, if it did. And one woman said that after the after the trial and expose a of the details around the lives of the two families and bills and the relationship. That mother, she came, she came into her mother's room and a mother had a novel on here. [00:28:12] Yet bizarre to be that she was reading, which was about [00:28:16] this was sometime later, a novel was written called opposition. It was about the trial and the case. And in this is what this woman's mother was reading. And so, you know, in her mind, it was my mother isn't reading that. And I've just told her, I'm a lesbian. And now my mother's reading a book about two girls who perceived as these the and they made it the mother. So this is not very good. [00:28:42] So it was it didn't really help speed. [00:28:45] And so both the defense in the prosecution used to use pianism as a as an angle. [00:28:51] So there's an angle. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You're quite right. [00:28:56] I mean, yes. Yeah. That's true. It was, well, in the context of the legal system. You could be [00:29:06] you're guilty if you're, the prosecution was saying, is that guilty because the bed? And the defense was saying, Well, no, they're not guilty, because they made and [00:29:18] in to get off it to? One way to get off was to say, well, they were insane. To me for not responsible. So that's what the angle of defense was. [00:29:29] Didn't really was not a flyer. [00:29:32] When you were researching your book, did you have access to the medical records? [00:29:39] We had access to [00:29:42] the prison Records, which recorded health and other factors. [00:29:50] We had access to the coroner's report, [00:29:53] which was, you know, obviously, full. [00:29:57] We had access to your publicly available material, obviously, we interviewed people closely associated with the case. So the psychiatrist to propose the folio do concept. So he interviewed him that was Dr. Middle icon. [00:30:17] We interviewed a number of the legal people who were involved with the case as well. And school friends, school girls, [00:30:30] at the time was Lisbon, as some seen as a mental illness like, like with homosexuality. Yeah, [00:30:36] yeah, totally. [00:30:40] Well, homosexuality, in general, is regarded as a collision and type of problem. Whether it was between men and women, and a lot of people didn't [00:30:49] mean we're a little bit more [00:30:55] weird, kind of [00:30:58] talks about or reject nice them inside these fields. So there's more about mail activity and papers, lots, there's lots of reporting on the paper have been being [00:31:10] prosecuted for having sex with other men, because it was illegal. [00:31:15] So therefore, it was in the New Zealand truth is a great source. It was kind of a scandal, like a scandal papers, I'd had divorces and, you know, six related cases. And so it's a really good resource for us. [00:31:31] It doesn't wouldn't wouldn't give you like a lopsided view of Of course, because you're already looking at the crimes or was supposed to crimes? [00:31:40] Well, I was saying, that's one way that's one in to our communities, there are other ends. And yes, I agree with you, I need that they always seem to be as well. But again, you can look at that and say, Well, [00:31:54] to me, and we're convicted of hitting seats with each other will, society at the time said it was a crime society at the time said we were, you know, [00:32:04] we had mental illness, which is totally not great. So you can still look at those circumstances and say, Well, this is the kind of oppressive world that we inhabited and hit to how do people survive. [00:32:20] In the South Island, for example, there was a place out the back somewhere in then the people, the guys, the set up a little early notification system of someone arriving down a long driveway, so they could, you know, [00:32:37] be prepared. And they was gay, gay place. And so people had to go to extremes to just to live an ordinary kind of social life. So, you know, we can make a lot out of even, you know, something that's presented as criminal in solemn, there are the other sources. So it's, sometimes people have Lyft, like journals, [00:33:05] and novels, you can get novels by gay and lesbian writers, there are depictions of people. [00:33:15] You know, [00:33:17] and we can work with apps and build from there. [00:33:21] Some writers and artists, Lyft records and artifacts, again, the journals, the recordings, or their writings, and we can have a glimpse into the world through the writings or through the journals, or through the [00:33:37] letters, [00:33:37] liters. cards, you know, [00:33:45] things that they kept in the houses. And [00:33:48] so they're having these these other ways to [00:33:51] try and uncover the worlds that we lived in created. [00:33:58] The Parker human case, really interesting, as you say, because it's been documented and written about and made films off in so many different ways. When you look at that, the and you look at what you and Allison have done, and when you look at some of the other more kind of mainstream views of the same things, what are the main differences? What are the things that [00:34:22] a different coming to it from our kind of a viewpoint? [00:34:29] Well, if I take the example of, say, Peter Jackson's form, [00:34:34] that's kind of irritating, because I still see it as it's still sort of focusing on weirdness and, you know, the fantasy world and so on. And [00:34:46] I would look at that and say, Well, you know, they were teenage girls, and so they did writings, and [00:34:54] they played games, and they made up things people do. Um, and it's kind of in from Australia angle, it's one of us is this kind of unspoken, or sometimes [00:35:11] overtly stated, connection that this is some evidence of, you know, we had at least being awesome. [00:35:21] And I would say, Well, I can separate, we can separate that out, is this adolescent behavior, these [00:35:28] female, at least some behavior? Is that least being well, you know, I might think something different. And I'll be looking for something more [00:35:41] from a lesbian. The other thing is this also, almost an implication of [00:35:50] you know, that there's something wrong. [00:35:54] And I come at it from the point point of view of all these me knows them as totally normal. Being guys totally normal. Transgender is totally normal. So [00:36:06] we might take away certain nuances or certain [00:36:13] insinuations. [00:36:16] One of the things we haven't touched on is the idea that the changing face of homosexuality, I guess, and what actually being gay, or lesbian, what it actually means. And I'm wondering, when you're looking at historic documents, how do you try and put yourself back in that time to work out? Is this a lesbian relationship? Or is it just two women living together? How do you? How do you kind of walk that path? [00:36:47] Well, I think that [00:36:50] first thing is that [00:36:53] what we write about the past, and what we write about now is a construct of our minds. [00:37:01] It's, it's not a fantasy, otherwise, you know, we would be novelists, and then you can write whatever you like, and make it up. So distinguishing between what I see is a total makeup, and an attempt, it [00:37:18] was still making up history, because it's come out of my mind, and from my perspective, and from whatever knowledge I have, or managed to pull together, and also from, you know, my own personality, and from my own values, and so on. So we always coming from the perspective, regardless of who we are. So that's always an overlay on what we're seeing and doing. And we should recognize that I don't think we can be [00:37:49] is there was a sort of [00:37:52] idea of, you know, so called objective history. And so I was told there isn't any objective objective history, because you are always in it. So you're always affecting what you're writing, you're always influencing, and you're always putting it from your point of view. So, so that's what we're doing. And we acknowledge it. So when I look at something from, say, 19th century, I might not use the word lesbian. Or I might, I might say, from my perspective, now, I would call that a lesbian relationship. That may or may not be a term that the people themselves use or even knew about. [00:38:33] But as long as we make it clear is to where we're coming from. And on what basis we're making a statement, then I think it's okay. But we can't willy nilly just go in and say, oh, [00:38:48] here's a here's a case of two women who have to release. [00:38:51] Because it doesn't really do anything, I don't think, but we can certainly question. As I said before, I can certainly go on and say, Well, why assume that this strike? Why assume it was just a friendship? Why assume this? I want to assume some other things. But I'm going to say that I'm assuming them. All I'm going to be explicit in say, Well, I don't think that you can say that these people were living a straight life. Because what about these other things? And what do we make of that? [00:39:20] Do you find that there is much explicit material from early onset of the 19th century or earlier, which explicitly says about homosexuals? Sometimes [00:39:31] feelings? x? Yeah, sometimes there is. Yeah. And, and we that's the case, then we can go a bit further, I think. Yeah. [00:39:39] How? How rare is that? [00:39:41] Hard to say? I think it depends on which you're talking about. I can't really comment on you know, the whole world. [00:39:49] But, I mean, we know like the writings of the carpenter. And you know, there's Oscar Wilde and scientist for a couple of people. We have evidence from [00:40:03] 17th century England, [00:40:06] have two women living together and just beat the 19. But [00:40:11] so yeah, so there are instances, Molly houses and London, certain century. So [00:40:19] you know, I think we can get you know, there are there are things yet to be uncovered. Because there are, we now have some examples. And so they must be more. [00:40:31] I'm wondering if you have encountered blocks in researching queer topics, either [00:40:40] organizational blocks or individual blocks and actually getting to material that you knows the [00:40:47] Yes, yes, I have in my current research. So I'm looking at the case of person who was [00:40:57] born female, lived as a man. [00:41:01] I think his top surgery [00:41:05] was described as masquerading as a mean, but he she identified his mile from very early on in the died only in the 1990s was married number of times. And his last wife was still alive. And I think is still alive. But went, [00:41:32] that went, let me to interview here. And I've also found and track down his very first wife. And she, she doesn't want to talk to me either. Because it kind of implicates him, I suppose, in a way. So that's really difficult. [00:41:50] So I've been the case written to the people and asked what they speak with me. And in. [00:42:00] And I've followed up in spoke to them directly. But they've said No, and I think that I have to speak them. So I can't go further with those people. I did ask if they would reconsider. But they said no. So after week with, you know, with what's available to me, [00:42:21] I think these kind of [00:42:25] No, history is complete. And you know what I mean? I can't, you can't pretend I've done all this research. And now I know everything about, you know, blah, blah, this person or this case or this event, it's never the case, because we went there the whole time with all the people. And we went all the people all the time. So any, any history is always just an approximation anyway. And [00:42:52] so you have to, I think, what that's my personal, my personal video in the way that I should not, there's any further with those people, because they've received clearly what they want. But at the same time, [00:43:09] it's a history in so I'm, I think we are allowed to write history. And [00:43:18] if we never wrote anything, because someone will be as upset if we didn't write because we stopped writing for someone would be upset, then we don't need history. So we, [00:43:30] that's part of the provision of history, I think, one of the issues with it. [00:43:36] That's a really interesting idea that when you're looking at an individual, and maybe the family around that individual and in the greater community, and the rights to privacy from the individual, in the family, and in the rights of the community to say Actually, we want to hold up, [00:43:56] or demonstrate that we have been here. And we're still here. [00:44:00] Yes, that must be quite an interesting, yeah. The way I think about it is this, my family doesn't own me. I own me. And so the subject of researching someone they own themselves, is people who have an interest in how they presented. And the same way, you know, people do genealogy, and they find out that these are some, it was someone who was a criminal in the background, they don't want to know about it. And in these days, often people do find it interesting. But, you know, if you [00:44:33] history is not about hiding, it's about uncovering as I see it. And, or, yeah, try to try to draw pictures of the past pictures of the present as well. And, and you'll say, how does it influence prison? So I think that we have, we must persist. But we have responsibility for how we do our research and what claims we make. [00:45:00] In we have responsibility to, [00:45:05] you know, acknowledge people, we acknowledge the sources, say, when we don't have them, say when we're making up or when we speculate it will be clear about it. [00:45:15] And [00:45:17] will say, this is the approach that we're taking that you want to live things. So could be this could be that, but as long as we are explicit about it, but I think we should not be deterred, because a family member or an ex partner, or [00:45:35] the government or an institution doesn't want us to tell about something. I think we should just continue with them. [00:45:48] You know, as long as we proceed with a good angle with with responsibility, it say, [00:45:57] what about on the situation? We're savers and histology of gay writing, that the years and a state of an author doesn't want writing in the anthology, because it's a gay anthology. Do you have any thoughts on that kind of thing? We're just I suppose the context of we your publishing stuff, and how you publishing stuff. It's highlighting this one particular aspect? [00:46:21] Yeah. Oh, piece in this gay and they've written gay stuff. And it fits in the role of you know, what, you're gay anthology as the in that should be in? Definitely. Definitely. I think. [00:46:34] I mean, just from just from my background, I think it is important to be visible. [00:46:40] In front of states these are we don't want this writing to be in the even though the piece that was gay. [00:46:46] I would wonder, what are the reasons? What are the reasons for not wanting that to be included? [00:46:56] As the some something we need to take into account, [00:47:00] benefits nearly they don't want people to know this person was gay. [00:47:05] The night, put it on? I suppose [00:47:07] it gets harder when it's possibly just speculation that the guy I guess, [00:47:14] again, we can come back to what's what about this pixelation that they're straight? So it is [00:47:23] it is often a speculation that the people are straight, or that's often an assumption that the people are straight. And the nuts I injunction that the straight when they may not be? So you know, as I said before, I think we have the right to say, Well, I wonder. And I challenge the assumption that the patient is immediately assumed to be straight. [00:47:46] Have you had blocks from site institutions or other organizations on publishing material? [00:47:55] Not not all, I've unpacking him. We hit the ground as a seed to do do research. And then we found a publisher and publish the book. My own book, book clubs published myself on Sunday, there was no block. And my current research, [00:48:15] I haven't experienced the block [00:48:20] the moderate mentioned with individuals not wanting to contribute. [00:48:25] But from an institution, not just the normal rolls around. [00:48:30] I was wanting to access some records from mentors, institutions, and there are a time limits on them. So I can't unless I get [00:48:42] a family member to say is that those records can be released. So I think that that's, that's what I've encountered so far. [00:48:51] What about in terms of you mentioned that out front was self published? [00:48:57] Would you consider that a block that you couldn't find publisher? Or was that previously you wanted to self publish something? [00:49:02] Personally, I did it because I didn't want to have to mean anything. I wanted to write what I wanted to write. And I just saw that as most efficient. [00:49:13] Did you think that you would have to mean stuff if you went through a [00:49:18] publisher might be a problem? tree? Yeah. So I suppose I self selected out and the way [00:49:23] I thought I thought, well is it's kind of hard to get published anyway. And I didn't want to be trapped into [00:49:32] having to fit into some publishers view of what it should look like and how it should be. I just want to title control. Actually, since you mentioned as I do recall, when we published Paquin him, [00:49:45] we [00:49:48] were talking with a distributor, and through our publisher, and our titles, pattern him at least the interview, because we wanted to be explicit about the angle, we were coming from certain, you know, as I said before, to be totally upfront. And the distributor, see, and I don't think that will go because, you know, bookshops won't hold a book like that, with the weird lesbian on it. And we said, well, no, that's what we want to call it. And would you rather that we hit let's see, Ellie is be in maybe we should put a what you really want is in OT, h i n g. And I think that's what they do. [00:50:28] So we sort of played with it for a bit and seemed like it was at least be inferior, and they didn't want to, if that would be a problem, then we go somewhere else. So we had to sort of be insistent here. And it did go out is at least the interview. And it did sell so it was just rubbish. [00:50:44] And what year was that? [00:50:46] Yeah, I think I think it was his published this. I can't recall. So you need to look it up. grew in 1991, 1993. [00:50:53] I'm not exactly sure which I always get them mixed up. Because it was it was published again in the United States. 9095 just with a preface. preface, [00:51:04] so the stolen attitude in the 1990s that we've been, we've been on the front cover. [00:51:11] Yeah. Which is just nonsense. I mean, every time we allow that kind of censorship to happen, then we're just diminishing ourselves, and we just will never get there. So just keep going. [00:51:22] Can you talk a wee bit about the out front publication? How did that come about? [00:51:28] I had quite a lot of material. [00:51:33] I'd collected these magazines, [00:51:37] published here. [00:51:40] cartoons, by woman, Cheryl says the name I forgot before. So she was an artist. And she did a lot of illustrations, and really broadsheet magazine, in depictions of these villains and lesbians kissing and which was really fantastic. Because that time in the 70s, it was not much material available. And of course, is not, you know, no access to internet and the miscommunications we have now. So those, those resources were really, for me, anyway, really important. There were articles and university magazines about, you know, gay and lesbian. And at that time, and because the whole gay liberation movement was going at the time, so things were starting to come out, but so I hid in my own private boxes in my house, we will magazines, newspaper articles, clippings, that I'd taken from events have been made, or heard about, and [00:52:42] I thought, there's a lot of information here. [00:52:46] records of events, protests, female, asleep, all sorts of stuff. And I thought it was not accessible. And one of the magazine's was for these beings only. So not, you couldn't really, you know, take that and copy it and give it around. But within, in that magazine was circle magazine, which was published in New Zealand. [00:53:11] And I want, I wanted to make that information more available and more accessible to more people. So that was my initial motivation. [00:53:21] And it was kind of like getting it in a form that would be last longer. [00:53:27] So I use those sources as inputs to to add in my knowledge and information, supplemented with some newspaper reports, which I had collected as well. [00:53:41] And other research I've done so [00:53:44] do you find that happens a lot in the queer community weird of individuals doing pockets of research or archiving? [00:53:53] I think people accumulate stuff, just generally anyway. [00:53:59] In New Zealand, there was until the 70s, a lot of [00:54:06] focus, I suppose, on political history, not news, not our own, not at the history of this country. And But since then, there's been an explosion, as you can see on the bookshops, if you go to the airport, you see stuff from New Zealand heaps of stuff. And it's been kind of like a conscious effort by historians, and the dictionary of New Zealand biography, for example, which is a great resource on [00:54:33] masses of individuals. So it's biographies of individuals who lived in this country, and who [00:54:41] did stuff did things across a range of occupations, social class, gender, and song, and rice. And so [00:54:53] New Zealand history, history focus on what the events of this country and the people in this land [00:54:59] has exploded over the last 2030 years of space, and I think the same was happening for us. And we, [00:55:12] we've got more resources now. So you know, the, the website that you're involved with, [00:55:19] we can bring in stuff from other parts of the world as well. We've got access to more books. And it's, we need to produce our own materials, from what we've learned about our own communities here. So and I think it's quite important for each place to do its own week in its own history. So we can't assume that how things were in England or Australia or in the US, or China, is the same as how things are here. So [00:55:50] yep. So when you're putting together the upfront book, was it really important to go back to the original sources? So like, you were saying, you had newspaper clippings you had your magazine? [00:56:01] Was all this information that you're gathering? Like, from firsthand sources? Yeah, [00:56:05] of course, people will question that and say, what's a fifth 10th source? [00:56:12] Or what's a primary source? And will say, well, that's also a construct, because someone read a newspaper article. [00:56:22] Someone took a picture, but they pictured this, and they didn't picture the rest of the of the event, they just focused on one little thing. So it's kind of a distorted, and [00:56:34] they have filtered, filtered sources regardless. But they were at least [00:56:41] records, contemporaneous records of the events in so that's a little bit closer. So yeah, I think that is quite important. I found that important to [00:56:58] read, you know, the, the account of a particular demonstration, I'm willing to say and remain, but I was the Oh, and that happened as well. Oh, yes, that did happen. So [00:57:12] I think, you know, why you could question you can question everything. But you can. [00:57:18] I mean, the fact is that something did happen. People did go and pick it outside, you know, a bar that excluded, kicked out gays and lesbians when they thought they saw us. [00:57:31] And so we we picketed outside a particular bar, and there's a picture of people there. And so you said that happen, that didn't happen on that day. And that's what it was about, might not have been what it was all about. But that's at least some, you know, you're getting closer. [00:57:47] So yeah, it is, to me, it is quite important. It's good to have, we can talk to people who were there at the time. [00:57:55] Bye. But you just have to weigh up the different [00:58:00] the different angles on this same event, and then come up with some you always come up with some construct about it on the basis of what you've what you've read and what you've talked about. [00:58:13] And it will be different from the people who were the on the day. So. [00:58:18] But there are some things that you can say, Yeah, I don't think it's all totally open and totally malleable in fluid. I don't subscribe today. [00:58:31] When was the book produced? [00:58:33] My booklet might have been 1993. [00:58:37] At that time, was it easy to self publish? [00:58:44] Well did all my credit card. [00:58:48] I had no problem finding someone who would print it. [00:58:52] I had assistance from Jeanie Rincon in Auckland, who allowed me to use photo shop to lay it out. And she laid it out actually. And in worked with me on it in she designed [00:59:12] designed it so [00:59:15] said it was really good to be able to have that assistance in really pleased for it as well. In the end, they not just found a place that would print it in. To publish, it's quite easy, you just you put a little copyright sign on your week, and you get a nice be a number. So just get one I located in the pulpit. And so it was not as hard as I thought it would be helped by. [00:59:47] I think around that time, Kathy transferred people's English literature Open University. And when I was going around trying to was writing courses to encourage writing, by people into self publish, and I remember his say how easy it was to actually Self Publish. And so things like that helped me and people women like that helped me [01:00:10] to just do it. [01:00:12] And how was it received in the community? [01:00:15] And people? It was, I found it really great because people said it was really great to have to have a resource like that. So that was with it to me. [01:00:26] We haven't talked about cultural considerations. I'm coming from a very kind of, you know, here I am. Watch my old pack. Yeah. [01:00:37] And I'm wondering, do you have any tips or guidance in terms of researching other cultures? [01:00:47] Well, we come to other cultures from our own culture. And so we've got the overlay. In this country, we've got the overlay of our colonial past as well, and responsibilities Thea. And I truly think that each culture help whether it's defined by race, or by sexuality, whatever, we [01:01:11] we do our own histories. [01:01:14] Someone else does their history. They come from the angle, and it's a different, it'll always be a different angle. So I will have a white female pharkya. [01:01:26] Croatian background view of history. And I can only come at it from that angle. [01:01:36] I might have an opinion, or stance on it. But that's not the same is [01:01:45] more women doing their own history or memory mean doing their own histories? histories? I should say. So, [01:01:53] yeah, I think we can [01:01:57] we just need to acknowledge where we're coming from in before we got limitations, and what angels will be. [01:02:05] So when example I'm thinking all this on the pride indeed website where we've got youth talking to youth, yeah. And I was thinking getting really good responses. Yep. Now, if I was to try and interview [01:02:18] somebody youthful, I would get completely different responses. Yeah, then I'm just wondering, have you have you encountered that same thing, but in terms of the kind of require or gender context? [01:02:32] What comes to mind as I am not transgender? And [01:02:38] I started my research on the person on researching from point of view with a lesbian, and go, could they be seen to be lesbian? Or how do you interpret that life? You know, the life? And so a transgender historian will look at the case in see it in a different light. I can't see that was me that experience, I might be able to imagine what it might be like, but I can't say that. Oh, yeah, I understand that. So I think you know, that's something that I've sort of grappled with a bit. [01:03:14] I think you can only speak for yourself in your own experience, and [01:03:21] bring that what you know, as you bring it to what you're looking at, in acknowledgement, and default, people can then make judgments on what you've said. They can say, Oh, well, he's older. And interviewing a 19 year 15 year old, so Pepsi's, missed some things about what the 15 year olds, you know what it is to be a 15 year old at this point in time. So if you're another 15 year old, you might have asked different questions, or you might focus on different things. So yeah, I think you know, as I said, we we are always working within constraints, and constraints of our lives, basically, now an experience of background knowledge. So yeah, it will be different. [01:04:09] So before doing kind of any kind of research, are you saying that you really do need to know your own? Where you stay and who you are? [01:04:17] I think so. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Because how can you know where you're treating? What? You don't know what you're you're treating on? Even when you we probably don't know, but at least we've got a start? Yeah. So [01:04:35] we can look at, [01:04:38] say, colonial past, from the angle of the white podcaster, who's living in this country and say something about it. And that's the angle you're coming from. [01:04:53] But if I did that, I wouldn't be coming from a from the point of view of, say, a married woman with an immense history that goes back to confiscated lanes, or murdered relatives or, [01:05:12] you know, some other kind of oppression and theft. And so, if I would have, you know, a different kind of attitude. [01:05:25] So that's not my experience. In this country, I've got a different experience. So it's got to be different in terms of what I right. [01:05:37] So you have to acknowledge us, I think he's, of course, we have to know, as much as we can you know, about our [01:05:43] we've come to an end, why we're doing it as well, why are we doing the research that we're doing? [01:05:49] Do you have any ideas for how to protect queer histories, so they're not lost? so that it's easier for somebody to find them future? [01:06:01] Well, I think digitization was one thing. So we've got access to the internet. And putting stuff on the internet is really excellent, I think. [01:06:14] Because it's available worldwide. And it's hard to get rid of. [01:06:20] It can be a collection, title to get rid of, you know, something that lives on multiple servers across the world. So I think that's one thing and and I think the other thing is just produce, produce more [01:06:36] proliferation, proliferate channels, works, across all media across all kinds of things at t shirts. In the past, people made the T shirts, little slogans on them. That to me is part of history. [01:06:56] I'm thinking of this is a random Association, but I'm in Oakland Museum, I think there are common Walk, walk clubs, and on those clubs are depicted events that relate to events in Kevin Cox channels, so they can be verified, verified, you know, double cross street. So you can see history and all sorts of artifacts, and our battles in our T shirts, and [01:07:30] our costumes, and saw the artifacts in there in leggings, [01:07:36] photograph albums with annotations, little boxes made to depict certain things. And so some saying a proliferation of forms, music, [01:07:55] you know, a written book, which is a formal kind of history, [01:08:00] little booklet, or pictures, photographs, all sorts that we proliferate, and that we encourage more people to do more, more research and more writing and more productions, films, documentary, [01:08:16] TV, movie, all kinds of stuff. So the more we do, the more there is. And I think behind that, all of those things could be taken away as well. So if we look at like the book burnings and Nazi Germany, where they tried to get rid of all that wonderful material, [01:08:36] that underneath it all is a strong and software community, or communities that keep on going. So the more that we can say, it's okay to be this feels okay to be gay, it's going to be transgender, it's okay to say we queer, it's okay. In the end, we will keep on doing it. And we'll keep on being it. I think that's the underpinning of everything else. [01:09:08] I guess one of the things with, for example, photographs is not only to have photographs, but actually have them annotated with [01:09:21] Do you find that quite frustrating? If you're looking back and you just saying, Who are these people? You know, I [01:09:25] look back at my own family photographs of these people. [01:09:29] So yes, it is it is frustrating this, there's lots of photographs of people from you know, like, it's just photographs. [01:09:40] There's nothing you can tell us. [01:09:44] And I'm one of the criminals who hasn't annotation photographs. [01:09:50] Well, the thing that gets me about some of those older photographs, especially things like I'm part of the Robert game collection from from Masterton, where you've got people posing very close together, and trying to work out the relationships between these people, you know, [01:10:05] yes. Yeah. Look at the cover of mates and lovers. Yeah. Yeah. So, [01:10:11] yeah, two men sitting, you know, quite close. So in one context, this is just a picture of two men. And another context with queer eyes. Oh, perhaps there's something going on there? [01:10:26] Yeah. Can we talk for a minute about the whole digitization of of records, [01:10:33] I think on the one hand, that gives us great, more, easier access to information. At the same time, we could be limited by, you know, how we're searching or how we're interacting with those records, you need to know what to search for. And sometimes it depends on how the records are stored in how you can access them, whether you need to use it in keywords or not, if we need to know what those keywords my the they may not be keyword to the degree that we need for our purposes. [01:11:07] And so therefore, it might be harder, in some respects to find the kinds of information that would be of interest. So, [01:11:17] I also worry that the digitization of existing physical resources that those resources may be destroyed or, or you know, they may be got rid of, because now people think that they digitize that we don't need them anymore. Whereas I think, certainly for myself, it's quite exciting to see and to feel the actual document or the actual signature that someone has actually touched or being, you know, being with him that you are now looking at that document that the person you're writing about all the people you're thinking about, they were actually the in, you know, with that piece of paper or that. And there's something different about it, I feel. [01:12:04] I think the access that we have [01:12:09] the opportunities we have with miscommunications, we should take advantage of their risks with these big advantages. I [01:12:16] guess one of the risks with the internet and digitalization [01:12:19] is that if somebody searches on something, and it doesn't come up on an online search, they might just assume that these things don't exist. Here. [01:12:30] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a risk. And so I think we just have to, you know, be more aware and make people aware of it. It's not the only it's not the only way. And we've got to look even harder. [01:12:44] And look at other other places, look in other places as well. Some of the things we didn't mention before, when we were talking about physical resources, we're things like cemetery records, medical records, perhaps I think maybe we mentioned I don't know, that's how, you know, BIT bit states and averages, those records, that will give indicators and they give context. Other associates, the parent, the the person who signed the marriage register. [01:13:14] And the it from there, you can build a network and perhaps find someone living who is who can add more or his some other things. So yeah, there's lots of other avenues that can be explored as well. We shouldn't think just because we've done a search and nothing comes out that there's nothing. [01:13:31] And do you think one of the benefits of actually going to an organization and saying, Hey, can you digitize this record? You're actually not only helping your own research, but I guess you're actually making sure that they are digitizing queer related material? [01:13:49] Yes, that's a good point. I think this would be a very good thing to do. Yeah. [01:13:55] Could you just bullet point a few things if you had to leave somebody with some no bullet point ideas about how to achieve success and researching career topics? What What would they be? [01:14:09] Boy? [01:14:12] How to achieve success? Well, depends on what your What is your What's your goal? So what what do you mean by your success? If you wanted to [01:14:26] make say, something written? Let's assume you're doing something written history of some kind? [01:14:35] Well, I think the first thing is get clear what it is that you get clear who you are, number one, and what's your perspective? Where are you coming from? What are your What do you think your blind spots are? As much as you can tell, at least know what your what your motivations are? [01:14:51] And why you're doing it? Then who are you doing? And about all of the people? Who are the people, you're doing this about? What's the event? And what's your interest in it? Why you doing it? And then kind of brainstorm? What is it? We could there be [01:15:11] either commentary or evidence that this happened and how it happened? [01:15:18] To think widely across all the kinds of sources, so some of the ones I mentioned, like official sources. So there's government, the Justice area, defense, Syria, that's relevant. [01:15:34] Your local media, international media [01:15:39] these days, you know, on the internet, the depictions of the video clips, the movies, the recordings of furious nature's, [01:15:52] the pistol records pistol out of facts about which you could make conclusions or from which you couldn't draw a bigger picture. And know that the history is complete. And there are multiple histories of, of, you know, a single event, saying different people have different views, different angles. You know, I think probably the biggest thing is self awareness in the [01:16:19] thinking widely as to where you could find an artifact of whatever kind, whether it be recording something written, something created, [01:16:34] you know, a piece of jewelry, which had a certain meaning, for example, or [01:16:42] a bystander, someone who was involved at the time, someone who was involved near the time, someone who's written something about the event, [01:16:54] creative weeks about the event, novel, poetry, female, all sorts. [01:17:04] So I guess thinking widely and then trying to draw those things together, talking with lots of people about it as well.

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