Jack Trolove - Creating Our Stories

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by pride in z.com. And funded through a generous grant from the Legacy Fund of the second Asia Pacific Outgames. So yeah, [00:00:10] my name is chip Taylor and I. Yeah, [00:00:16] my background is [00:00:19] grew up in a small town in North Canterbury, was brought up by my mentor and great Auntie, [00:00:27] along with the recent families, that kind of big, intergenerational rural upbringing. [00:00:33] And [00:00:35] I trained as a, as a painter, as an artist. So initially, my that was kind of [00:00:43] my world, and yet still have enough practice. But kind of that intersects now with lots of other sort of social justice related projects, or [00:00:54] I think that some of the first organizing I did was probably Community Arts projects, working with, you know, various groups who experience being marginalized, for whatever reason, and using kind of creative languages or visual languages to challenge stigma and assumptions around some of that stuff. And yeah, maybe some of the other organization was, you know, [00:01:21] used to turn yourself to choppers and things like that. Around the round, when the west coasts were getting blocked, that was sort of probably my first big organizing experience with with some of those kind of campaigns. And, and [00:01:38] But yeah, I guess since then, probably, yeah, [00:01:42] just lots of been involved with organizing lots of Hawaii. And, [00:01:47] actually, a couple of years ago, worked with middle and McNamara to [00:01:54] create a, we'd sort of did a show in the in as well to organize people from all over the country, [00:02:04] to come together for a weekend to kind of talk about how we use [00:02:09] creative greatness to explore, pack our relationships to colonization, and it was called whiteness, whiteness, creative disorders and hope. So you're kind of looking at it back here responsibility, and that, you know, kind of year through creative wins, blah, blah, blah, all that sort of stuff. [00:02:29] So would you say a lot of the events that you've been a part of an organizing, have been more at the community in? The kind of professional? Yeah, yeah, [00:02:39] definitely. Yep. And the racer project that I worked on with, which was the Kazem Hawaii. So that was [00:02:49] National Youth Hawaii, for queer trends tuck tap, we enter six MVP fair, young people from all over the country. And that was the first project that was able to come in, it was already there was already sort of funding to, to run it. So it was really exciting, because it was lots of Skype. Yeah. And I didn't have to deal with it myself as well. [00:03:13] Well, I'm wondering if we can have a look at maybe a couple of your different events that you've organized. Because I'm assuming that running a community driven event is quite different from something that somebody is paying you to organize? Could you tell me what, uh, what what do you think some of the key principles of running a community based of the entire [00:03:36] I think [00:03:36] the key thing is, for me, as you know, you just got to be super passionate about, about the project or about what you're wanting to do, because it's so much work. Yeah. And insight. from, you know, for me, I really have to be invested in wanting that space. Yeah. [00:03:58] One of the biggest lessons for me. So the stuff that I've organized has been thinking about [00:04:05] actually kind of tailoring the sort of space that you want to work for whatever it is that you're doing. So [00:04:13] for example, the the way that I talked about before, or the gathering the [00:04:19] white mist project, that ended up being really huge. So we had people speak at the home, we had like, 60 speakers from all over the country, it was amazing. But it was really great. But actually, at the end of the day, we didn't get what we really wanted out of it, which was a kind of, you know, really, [00:04:38] really specific conversations around some of those problematic creative issues. Yeah. And because it was so big, we ended up hosting this, what I think was this really choice thing for people and was probably, you know, core community development, lots of really great stuff came out of it, and there was some really kind of, you know, good follow up, how dynamic stuff and conversation but but I, but in the end, it wasn't, we didn't kind of get what, what we wanted, yeah, because it was too big. And, you know, in the end, we probably what we should have done as, but what we could do for a parallel thing would be to kind of just maybe, invite the team people that we really want to pick their brains and, and, you know, host to kind of get together and bring some really exciting stuff in so people want to be there and, and looked after that space Really? Well. You know, I guess one of the things that I've been learning as [00:05:37] you can, you know, you can kind of host the gathering about anything, and no doubt, there will be really awesome stuff come out of it. But it's so much work that to make it really worthwhile. And to get the most out of it, it's really important to be really specific about why you're doing it and what you dream situation as to come out of it. Yeah, or what those what what connections you really, really want to be building. Yeah. [00:06:02] those kind of questions like right at the front of before you organize anything. Yeah. Like, you know, what do you want out of it? Are you who you aiming it at those conversations, like hard to kind of pin down? Is it hard to work out why you're actually doing something? [00:06:18] It depends? No, I don't think so. Because I think Usually, the only reason you would organize something and invest that much sort of time and energy is something that you really want. So for me and all my experiences of of all the projects that I've worked on, that it's pretty much always been because there's something that I want to participate, and then it doesn't exist. So the only way to kind of get that happening is to create the space where Yeah, and I think that's one of the amazing things about being and I'll try, it's because it's small, you actually, that happens a lot more like friends of mine overseas, that I talked to that that's not always the case, because there's something kind of closely enough related to what the interested in that they can come along, or whatever. Or it feels too huge to organize stuff. But I think, you know, here, it's quite amazing that that we organize whatever we want to do. You know, it's great. Yeah. [00:07:13] So looking back to whiteness, white Miss, what would you have done differently? [00:07:21] I think that what we could have done is [00:07:27] we probably had, we managed to not get so excited about all of these amazing people coming together. I think we could have literally just sat down and brainstorm exactly what we wanted that space to be. And then tried to work out the most. I know that sounds funny, but almost the most limited way of doing it. You know, what, what are the least components that we need to bring together? And what do we want the feel of the space to be? What do we want? Yeah, [00:07:57] I guess what kind of atmosphere do we want to create and being really realistic about the kind of numbers around that? So we actually wanted really in depth discussion and space that there could be lots of challenge and [00:08:12] but also that wouldn't kind of get out of control. And I think to be really realistic about that. That's actually a small group. That's kind of small group discussion. Not a big national gathering with lots of speakers. So yeah, but you know, that said, having done that there was all of its kind of amazing stuff that came out of that. And, and the feedback was that people had been really hanging out for that kind of space. So, you know, perhaps we could have done a really small workshopping thing. And then, I mean, just hit a public forum for a day and got some really amazing speakers and or something. Yeah. [00:08:47] Why did you refer to saying you want to kind of maybe reduce it down to the smallest thing that you could do? Yeah. [00:08:56] Okay. So I think it's because [00:09:01] what I'm realizing I've, I have a lot of experience doing as feeling like, and I guess maybe it's some of it sort of social conscience stuff of, of [00:09:12] wanting to do something good or beneficial or whatever, and ending up kind of just making huge jobs for yourself, for no real reason. Other than, you know, it's really good that people are talking about this stuff. So I guess. Yeah, I guess I'm just talking about trying to be a little bit more strategic about [00:09:32] year about where I put my energy and, and, [00:09:38] and the kind of form that you're looking to create not just not just content, not just themes. Yeah, [00:09:46] I guess I'm just I'm getting the least interested in kind of really huge. [00:09:53] Unless I'm interested in kind of lots of speakers speaking about lots of stuff, and really question and answers afterwards. And much more interested in kind of, [00:10:06] I guess, more intimate kind of, and deep dialogue that I feel like, can then be useful for people, you know, or that we can kind of create tools that have to achieve what we want to achieve. Yeah. [00:10:17] You mentioned a number of times, spaces. And [00:10:24] I'm wondering if you can talk to me about what what do you mean by space? When you create a space? What What does that mean for you? [00:10:30] I guess that's about, yeah, that creating a situation that's different to kind of everyday life in and the Yeah, and the kind of ritualized way that we do it so that [00:10:46] it's not just about getting people in a room together, it's about thinking about the dynamics about [00:10:53] how, yeah, I guess it's, I don't know, [00:10:58] atmosphere, all of that kind of stuff, flight how, how literally, there's a place that kind of commune together about something. [00:11:06] And or to work together or whatever it is in? Does it kind of get at what you're getting it or not? [00:11:13] If I'm interested in that idea, and also physical space, how on how you actually bring people together and working out the right space? Yeah. But also the space in terms of people's clear thinking, yeah, a safe space in terms of, you know, if people can say stuff in that environment. Yeah. [00:11:34] I think in terms of physical space, that's often just because most of the projects I've worked on is not actually been any funding, or next to no funding. So it's just been lots of finding a room that we can fit the amount of people and that we can further in, and, you know, [00:11:54] making sure that there's a kitchen near enough. So we can cater all events, sometimes it's been just, you know, bringing a barbecue inside or doing lots of baking or, you know, kind of, yeah, it's quite exciting the ways that you can feed lots of people. [00:12:11] But maybe, maybe if we talk about the youth Hawaii [00:12:18] so the physical space that we use, there was a place called carry part, which is a stupid Christian camp out, and he needed some belly just opened, [00:12:31] we had about 200 young people there for four days and nights. So it was kind of was quite interesting using that space to because it was, you know, there was kind of a lots of [00:12:44] Bible phrases and stuff all over the walls. And you know, like, spatially, it was quite interesting to kind of interact in that environment. And it was really cool. It was really interesting discussions, because because the whole he was totally youth running youth lead [00:12:57] all the decisions, big decisions basically, with made by the young people. And so it was really interesting code by around what to do about it, you know, because obviously, there's lots of kind of, but for those young people did identify as Christian. And so maybe that worked for them. And then there was lots of that, that was really triggering for them. And, you know, me included as I [00:13:19] really wanting to make it, you know, obviously, you know, have positivity around that stuff, but also about all the other kind of faith that wouldn't represent a beer. And so it was really cool conversation around, you know, do we cover them up and put put some other posters up? Or do we just add some, you know, add some phrases from, you know, the Quran, and, you know, Buddhist texts, and all these kind of things to or random, nondenominational [00:13:51] comments on spirituality or, you know, [00:13:55] and it was really interesting in the in that the young people will not not cover them up. That's that, you know, we're, and the reasons reason for doing that was that they felt that the space was, you know, physically The house was a Christian space, in that it would be disrespectful, to the people whose house that was to, yes, I thought it was really interesting. And, you know, that was a really cool learning for me. Yeah. [00:14:24] The physical space that it was amazing, because it was, you know, surrounded by native bush and had really cool kitchen and lots of kind of little cabin rooms and things like that, which worked really well about 15 young people per room. But, um, it was, we ended up getting that space in the end, because we had such so little time to, you know, but when I came on board, the whole we had to happen within six months. And so that was, that's massive, I mean, and then, you know, in an alternative situation, that wouldn't be such a big deal. But when you're running a youth run, you fled Hawaii, which means let's really hosting workshops with young people all over the country, to find out how they want to do what they want to do, all of that kind of stuff, that kind of that super high engagement, takes a lot of time. And then working with young people who have all these phenomenal skills and ideas and, you know, amazing stuff, but just not, you know, they just, they just organize things differently. And their level of resources really different than a necessarily have cars or jobs or four finds that they can use or you know, all of that sort of stuff. So the, the, the kind of the expectation of what happens and it time expands in the resources to do it. So you know, that, I guess that was a really big challenge there. But also, what it means was that by the time I'd come on board and got to looking for a venue, most of the [00:15:57] local Medina that were big enough, we've got a bit of. And so that was kind of, you know, [00:16:02] initially, it felt like a real shame because it was, I think it's so, you know, so powerful that all being in a room together and sleeping under one roof, and, you know, all of the kind of stuff that goes on with when, when people are held together in that way, it's really different. And so I was kind of said that we were getting this other side initially, but um, but yeah, in the end, it actually worked really, really well. And it just had a whole lot of other kind of positives that I hadn't for saying, Yeah, and and we still managed to, are we [00:16:41] people like Elizabeth kitty kitty worked with us to, [00:16:45] to make the space work in terms of taking in basically carrying over that kind of stuff. So we still can hold the space properly. But yeah, it just wasn't a Medina was a huge German. Hello, Kevin. Yeah. [00:17:03] I'm wondering if we can just rewind and and basically take me through the whole process of you coming on board with rainbow youth and in traveling around the country and and eliciting those kind of responses from us. Yeah. Can you take me through how that all kind of happened? Yeah. [00:17:25] When I came on board, there was [00:17:28] the board who surrender youth as a youth run youth organization in all of the [00:17:34] board the governance as this totally youth governance. So from this some [00:17:41] non youth supporters and mentors in as part of that board, but [00:17:47] the soldier, everybody, the under 27, and they, [00:17:54] they're part of the focus was, was working at head of support, development of kind of national networks. And because [00:18:05] queer trans desktop, Wi Fi fifth, and to six communities around the country, [00:18:11] totally financially not resourced, super rich, and lots of other ways, but not in terms of finances. So lots of their kind of networking is really tricky. And so they wanted to focus on being able to host another national hurry after out there. And that, remember, you said, committed to doing another one. And [00:18:36] so when the Dancing with the Stars money came through, that was able to go towards kind of a national focus, which was really exciting. So basically, the first step in it was to host this host. So when I came on board, yeah, [00:18:52] that's all that I knew that they wanted to do that. [00:18:57] But yeah, the real change for me was working in a youth lead youth run model. I've worked in lots of kind of other inclusive models, particularly kind of ran mental health stuff in the past, but and some disability stuff, but this was, you know, different again. And so [00:19:16] the year, the challenge was working out how to genuinely support a youth lead youth run event, when everybody wasn't in the same town or couldn't necessarily come together to organize stuff in the way that I, you know, in a linear way that I was thinking of. And so [00:19:35] what, what we did initially was [00:19:38] put together a Youth Advisory crew. So that was that was based up here in Auckland. And we meet once every think two or three weeks. And it was just a crew of really, staunch or some young people who he got on board with the vision and, and kind of, basically, I just checked in with him every couple of weeks, and [00:20:05] was sort of like, this is where I'm thinking of going with it. This is how I'm doing it. And they would, you know, pull it apart or go Yeah, awesome. Or we'd kind of revisit stuff. So yeah, just so that we're driving the direction but not having to do the legwork. [00:20:20] When you say youth what kind of age range? [00:20:22] I'm so anybody under 27. Yeah. So between whatever age in 27. I think the youngest person that we ended up having the whole he was 10. Yeah. [00:20:36] With a parent and in 13 year old on their own. [00:20:41] And in terms of the advisory group, what kind of age range? [00:20:44] They were, probably most of them will be early 20s, 30, some little bit later. 20s? Yeah. [00:20:53] And can you describe some of the ideas that you pitch to them that kind of flew and some that [00:20:59] ground? So basically, when we were developing out the copper of how we wanted to work in against, what the [00:21:07] have, [00:21:09] how we support or some behavior, you know, we're interaction and communication, and basically how our [00:21:18] F thing that we use to deal with stuff when it goes wrong as well, you know, so so we created, because then co Papa, and their head, I think we had about 15 kind of points of which were really sort of strength based, so was around things like [00:21:41] using language that doesn't show anything about anybody's, you know, [00:21:48] gender, family, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. [00:21:52] using language that makes us feel somewhat stank. Really, really kind of simple things, but they will keep points that if it's definitely wrong, we could go back to, you know, so the young people could kind of go, Hey, we need to have a talk about that. This doesn't work with, you know, how does, how does what had just happened for them with the language that we're committed to using with each other? And, you know, making more space, not this space, and all of that sort of stuff. So it was basically just creating a tool for the young people to use to kind of, yeah, keep the environment working. And, and, you know, I think safe as a really weird term, but to keep it [00:22:37] good. Yeah. [00:22:41] So that kind of discussion that happened right at the outset. In terms of [00:22:47] that, that probably happened as we went through, you know, I was just trying to think of an example of one of the things that a workshop with that advisory crew. And, [00:22:57] I mean, they would have been awesome conversation, the record, actually, you know, cuz, yeah, [00:23:04] it was great. It was, it was really cool. And we kind of ended up using lots of the, [00:23:10] the tools that we were [00:23:12] developing for the Hawaii in order to even have those conversations and work out how we have them. And yeah, so it's interesting. Can you remember anything else from that list of things that, that that kind of came up with? Or did you have a predefined list that you went in with saying, What about this? Listen, this guys? Or did they come up with all those 15 just by themselves, and [00:23:33] well, I encourage people to come up with stuff. And, you know, just flip through an email with a couple of ideas, or Facebook, or just cool or whatever. But actually, everybody was really busy. And the end didn't really happen. So I just kind of hashed out what I thought, you know, you know, sometimes if you've got something to start with, you can butcher it. And it's good. You just get going. So yes, I just came up with, you know, 10 or 15. To start with, and then everybody just got involved. And we went [00:24:05] from meeting with the advisor group on a similar regular basis, what, how does it progressed from there? [00:24:12] Well, because there was so little time, it just had to get going, we decided to get going. So basically, [00:24:20] we set up the, or the young people set themselves up as an advisory crew. And then [00:24:27] and then it was literally practicalities of kind of booking spaces, stuff like that. Starting to get the word out about what we were doing. And [00:24:36] I mean, yeah, it was literally just kind of bringing Apple Skype in or Facebook in or whatever, through the various networks to connect with. [00:24:45] Whoever, basically whoever I could connect with all over the country, particularly the the kind of bigger groups with is or the slightly more formal groups. So places like [00:24:57] Waikato, Wellington, [00:25:01] donate, and in, found that I, other smaller places are not smaller places, but places with these smaller Connect groups. [00:25:11] So basically just kind of getting the word out through all of our networks and through everybody's networks that and, and once the young people heard that there was going to be a holy, they're totally behind it and excited. And so it was really really choice. But then also, you know, he just shows around trying to fundraise to get people to, to come. And luckily, that [00:25:33] from the with the last of the Dancing with the Stars money, that was enough to kind of rent the venue in and host the space. And we could support some people with flights and things like that. But [00:25:44] you know, lots of, you know, it was, you know, [00:25:48] young woman selling homemade fudge to make it ready to come up and stuff like that, it was really choice and, and, you know, in an auto tie, there was in Christchurch, there was after the earthquake, there was [00:26:04] some funding that came up for some of those young people. So they were able to use some of the head and things like that. But yeah, so the next stage was basically connecting with everybody and trying to make times that I could go and meet when these groups were happening or whatever, to let them know. So basically, it was like, Hey, we were wanting to host this, Holly and [00:26:24] and where we're at is that this, we've got a really beautiful venue and this space, and everything's good to go. But yeah, I kind of tried to describe it, like, you know, and this is really cheesy, but but like, you know, baking, some washes, big, quick cake, you kick. [00:26:47] And so we've got the turn, and but, you know, we need everybody to come up with all the ingredients. So basically, it's, it's your space, your time, what do you want to do, and we did a really cool kind of visualization exercise exercises around, you know, if there was all the kind of money resource everything in the world, what you know, and you got to hang out with two other 200 other young people, you know, [00:27:16] similar to yourself for four days, what would you love to do? [00:27:22] As you can imagine, it wasn't really [00:27:27] cold. And but yes, that was really great. It was like, you know, most people wanted Lady Gaga perform [00:27:37] sorts of things, but it was, it was great. Because basically, when we kind of did part of the visualization was sort of, you know, what we'd love to learn, like, what workshops Would you like to do? [00:27:50] What experiences Would you like to have, and, and your young people are awesome at just thinking so far outside in the squares, you know, especially, I think, our communities and, and so, yeah, [00:28:04] people came up with these fantastic dreams of, of the workshops that they'd love to do things that like to explore. And then the next, the next thing we didn't, and the kind of exercise was to go, Okay, so here's a huge list of things. And trying to match up skills with the different things that was really choice, some people would be, like, really love to, you know, do dance workshops, or, you know, explore gender, do some drag or do some, whatever, and, and then, inevitably, they'd be somebody else in that group, or, and the group that I've been with the week before, who were like, Who's the dance tutor, or who I'm trying to think of the kind of, we had some really amazing, amazing workshops and stuff. But so basically, the, what happened was, all the dreaming happened, and the kind of big wish list and in the young people basically worked out ways to kind of match that and listen to their skills. So we did other kind of do the exercises around, you know, trying to, for people to kind of work out what their particular offerings are, what their skills are, or, you know, and even people when people are really shy, there's really great ways that they can be contributing. So, um, yeah, it was just kind of, like this amazing three month period of supporting them to kind of weave this awesome. fabric of, of, yeah, [00:29:34] of the kind of skills and vision and dreams together, which I think, you know, ultimately, is really empowering. Because then they, you know, became more and more aware that it was actually bad made this kind of perfect thing. You know, in God, it wasn't perfect, but it was amazing, like, chaotic and divine, you know? And, and, yeah, just that kind of great fun, every realizing that actually, we have all the resources that we need, you know, not not financial, but and, but to kind of, I guess, get a sense of that wealth, you know, in terms of all of the other stuff was really cool. [00:30:12] So how does that fit with the idea that, like you're saying, at the start, we're to know what you want to achieve out of a kind of an event? In this situation? Rainbow youth has actually created a space. Yeah, like a three day window of time. Yeah, but didn't know how to fill it. Yeah. What was rainbow youth striving? idea behind? I mean, why? Why did they create that space? Yeah. [00:30:41] So I'd say also, it wasn't about not knowing how to fill it, it's about being committed to the youth, the youth and Copa, which is about basically learning how to do that learning how to [00:30:57] host space facilitate the development of stuff, all of that kind of thing without actually [00:31:04] doing it, or doing the content in it, I guess, that's just part of that kind of, you know, use development. [00:31:13] Those ways of working? Yeah. So, [00:31:17] but yeah, I guess, division around during that was that they, they wanted to [00:31:25] develop more of a national focus, like realizing that they're probably the most resourced, you know, actually, financially, they're not very resource at all. But But, you know, they've got a drop in center, for example, and it's more than as and pretty much anywhere else in the, in the country aside from [00:31:46] a Nelson, we're, that's the cue youth have a little seem to there, which was really cool. But [00:31:53] remember, youth also delivers education and schools, you know, that the we had the most staff out of, I mean, the only people with also from Nelson, actually, this year, kind of part time stuff all over the show. But yeah, Rainbow youth was basically the most resource, there was a director, administrator, and educator. [00:32:13] Oh, yeah, it's, um, there was sorry, I'm going back now. But there was also with Dancing with the Stars money, Rainbow youth. Because that was the idea. That was everybody knew everyone knows that we need to kind of do some, you know, build some really strong networks nationally, in order to kind of be able to affect any big picture change, and there's just so much stuff that needs to get to it needs to happen, and then needs to be much more kind of momentum behind that. And so those networks need to be really strong, even in order to kind of get resourcing for all of the other groups around the country. So with when the Dancing with the Stars funding came through, the focus was to put that into kind of yet a national focus, basically. And so how did that was to fund national scoping project, which was actually really interesting raid, you can get it off the rainbow youth groups, or the summary, you know, and it, you know, it comes up with all of the stuff that, you know, you would have shown, but it's kind of at least now, it's officially kind of backed up by research. And so that's been a really, that's a cool tool, and is now getting utilized a bit more. But basically, what what those researchers found out as well was that there was, yeah, there was a mandate via for members to kind of hold that space to initiate that national focus. So I guess the next step on that was to basically create a space where young people from all over the country could come together and year strategize around how they wanted to do that. The other thing is, though, that because lots of young people are living really isolated situations, they also just want to come together and hang out. And, you know, do their own thing. And so, yeah, that was, it was a connection. part of it as well, you know, kind of having that, I guess, slightly more, [00:34:07] or being aware of the kind of politics of how, you know, [00:34:11] some of the ways that change happens, and how we need to be really strategic about that, and, and even getting a whole lot of young people together host course it just like, I want to party. And like, and then you know, I mean, it's really kind of cool young agitators in there who really, you know, these, like, amazing kind of wild scope of, of personalities and combinations and drives. And, and, but it was, yeah, I mean, it was really, really illustrated than the need for [00:34:42] even just for social time, you know, time to just, um, it was samish know, young people were kind of, you know, tears, and we'll have a lot later in the works, but but it was a, it was a really intensely emotional time minute, it kind of, yeah, I think there was a real indicator of [00:35:04] kind of living in a hetero normative gender normative world, when there was that window outside of that it was kind of like, you know, [00:35:15] the young people didn't necessarily want to sit around and strategize how to change, you know, schools and get, you know, [00:35:24] tackle the bigger shows, and, you know, it was kind of about connecting. And, you know, and obviously, that's the way all that stuff happens anyways, through connections and building relationships. And [00:35:37] it was definitely relationship. Yeah. [00:35:40] But one of the one of the other things that young people really wanted is they wanted to hear from the heroes and some other kind of, you know, they, they really crave the intergenerational [00:35:54] content, but, but you wanted to drive being able to host that and all that kind of stuff is really, really, really different from all of the other stuff that happens. And so be really interesting to kind of it, we were just so flat out that afterwards, I haven't really had time to check in with lots of the people that some of those kind of elders that presented. And even when we did that, actually, we did it in a really different way. So we used it was similar to the kind of pitcher catcher format, I don't know, if you're, so what happens with it is that people present, so if it's really visual service, you can use PowerPoint and things that's like 20 slides and 20 seconds per slide. My message is really bad. But that should add up to about six minutes. And, and so basically, we had these phenomenal, really, I mean, you know, some real powerhouse, people speaking, you know, telling stories with young people and kind of addressing, you know, big show's big kind of historic stuff. Some of the, look, you know, one of the key focuses, sorry, I'm kind of one of the shy, but [00:37:05] one of the things that the scoping project came up with was that, you know, obviously, there's real issue around that, I think in the research, they call it diversity within diversity. So basically, how [00:37:20] queer and trans youth spaces kind of become a modularized, like everything else, and so that the, you know, [00:37:29] diversity, not so much around sexuality, but specifically around gender, race, ethnicity, all sorts of stuff, you know, disability. And so, [00:37:44] for me, I was really, really, that's, that's kind of what really excited me about the project was that there was scope, it was, you know, kind of a mandate to really get into some of that stuff around power and language and bodies. And, you know, so [00:37:59] we, one of the ways that we kind of started exploring some of the stuff was through this year, we call it a think tank. And, and that was where our pilot presenters who, [00:38:15] which was the only kind of, quote, unquote, non youth, [00:38:21] well, we had this kind of beautiful intergenerational welcoming part. But then, aside from there, all of the workshops where youth and youth lead apart from this one home, where they basically [00:38:32] said, all the people that they really wanted to hear from, and these people presented on all sorts of topics using that kind of model of 20 slides, 20 seconds, that was really fast and furious. And, you know, it's quite kind of endearing things, somebody do that, you know, it's quite, it's quite performative. And, and it's quick. And so we'd have kind of, I think, we had sort of themes, Dixon's and three people per fame would present MP in would all kind of clump into little think tanks and, and just, you know, organically make sense of, you know, whatever came up, whatever thoughts were on that. So it was, you know, yeah, quite dynamic. And [00:39:16] it was a really interesting, unfortunately, you know, time wise at time bit too far down the track. And the young people were kind of emotional and been up for two nights in a row and neck. And, you know, so [00:39:32] we're kind of, you know, I think we should have been more staunch about that, that was a space that we just all stayed at the entire time. But it was, we tried to just keep it really organic. So people kind of coming in and out and things like that. And, you know, that was another cool learning. But it's really important to have that time where everything's kind of really loose, and people can just follow your instincts around what they want to be doing. But I think it's also really important to kind of protect time that it's really precious, you know, and not to kind of define what that doesn't doesn't. But [00:40:03] yeah, I felt like we had this really amazing, I had a really amazing gift, and the people that came to present what they did, and it would have been, [00:40:15] would have been great to kind of throw all of the, you know, forgive and throw all of the energy into making it happen. But you know, there's the learnings, and I still kind of think it was a was a cool concept, and lots of great stuff happened with it. And if that was going to happen again, you know, that would be learning from that. Yeah. Sorry, I've gone so far off the track. I don't even know we were [00:40:37] fascinating stuff. I'm wondering how, how was it for you to actually [00:40:45] be in a position where you're enabling things to happen, but not controlling things? It was? Yeah, [00:40:52] it was totally inspiring. It was amazing. [00:40:59] And was really challenging. You know, I'm a real control freak. And I'm [00:41:06] sorry, I think it was beaten out of me last year. Yeah, [00:41:11] I mean, I'm aware of that. So I really, you know, try and catch myself, but it's not so much about being a control freak. It's just about, you know, [00:41:22] getting so excited about it, you know, and wanting it to be all it can be and just knowing that epic potential that's there and wanting to really kind of protect the room for that to happen. And, yeah, so but wow, it's just, you know, I just think God, everybody should spend a year working in a youth live youth environment, because it's just, it just learned really radical new ways of working. And it's, it's Yeah, I mean, it's really challenging. I found it really, really challenging. But I also [00:42:02] Yeah, I learned hates alone hates about risk in trust and empowerment. And, you know, I kind of always thought that I worked from, from I guess, I, in my head, I thought of work done lots of kind of know, even know how to talk about this stuff. Yeah, [00:42:21] I don't know, I think it's the real cool, really interesting, kind of cool parallels around sovereignty stuff, you know, in relation to [00:42:31] all sorts of groups of people. And, you know, as a white person, I'm really not used to working in those ways. You know, I grew up pretty staunchly feminist and, and, [00:42:45] I guess, of, you know, and we've always kind of [00:42:53] done lots of social justice work over the years and, and try to cheat myself lots on how I work and, and, but, you know, it's, yeah, it was a whole nother It was really a whole nother layer and level of learning. And it's, it's really cool, because now I'm kind of working on this project around Youth Mental Health. And, and, you know, there's some parallels with, you know, [00:43:18] consumer driven projects. And I'm really aware now of, of the kind of, I guess, the detail of with it isn't isn't on the book. Yeah. So [00:43:33] interesting stuff, [00:43:34] do you have any examples of of that kind of challenge? I think, [00:43:39] for me, the biggest, actually, the thing I learned most from was [00:43:47] learned to kind of [00:43:49] throw the energy into something and support support everything as best as you possibly can listen heaps, and heaps and heaps and just respond rather than drive. But [00:44:00] but also to just support risk and support, failure, and support disaster. You know, and I know, it's, it's not necessarily usual way of working, but it's kind of like, you know, being really aware that all of that all of that stuff is actually the biggest learnings. So if people are kind of supported and held and, and can take care of each other through all of that stuff through taking huge risks and, and getting that those awesome moments where it really works, and also experiencing certain up weekend to give up like, and kind of disastrously no working is, as long as, as long as all of those sort of support networks stay via then people grow through that, you know, I mean, that's the best opportunity for learning and growth, and especially if there's time to kind of evaluate what's going on and work out, strategize how to kind of move past that. Yeah, [00:44:56] I guess I've just become a huge believer and, and then, son, and not being risk averse, and not avoiding things going wrong, really trying to support things we can well, but [00:45:11] yeah. [00:45:12] So what would be an example? Can you give us an example, okay, [00:45:15] it's really, it's actually quite hard to put my finger on something, because I just feel like the entire process was full of that every single revolt. So lots of it's about having really big dreams and big visions. And I think that's the real strength that young people have. [00:45:33] But also, sometimes not having the experience to know what kind of resourcing you need to actually achieve, what kind of time you need to achieve there. [00:45:45] Lots of things that I had no idea how they were going to happen. So for example, or you know, our show can think of, so sometimes young people were getting really inspired about their workshop and [00:45:56] and on, you know, fans making demonstration for like, [00:46:03] I think we had lesbian erotica corner, we had [00:46:10] a minority crew doing hip hop dance classes, and had this kind of amazing range of, I mean, there was [00:46:21] trans cat turning and all sorts of things. But, like, some of those workshops, for example, and people were really excited about really prepared for and follow this stuff. And, and, you know, you go all, who knows who's going to go to what workshop, there's so many different things on that people can go to, and, you know, and in those moments, when you realize that nobody's gonna go to somebody's workshop, and [00:46:45] just, like, try not to cry. You know, and, and, [00:46:49] or Russia and, and, like, make it okay, what, you know, do whatever. And I'm forcing myself to, like, sit on my hands and not, you know, just trust the price is trust that I had lots of really cool young facilitators, they were being conscious of watching the space and all of that sort of stuff. And I'm going it was so inspiring. I, you know, just saying, When nothing happens, young people's empathy kicks in and kind of consciousness and everything. And then [00:47:20] they actually never happened in a bad way. The only time it happened, was there one or two situations where nobody wanted to go to somebody's workshop, and then another crew of young people just went over and were like, Oh, hey, maybe we could incorporate this with what we're doing and blah, blah, blah. And then there was this beautiful collaboration and, and a really empowering situation around and it was actually amazing. So actually, that's very powerful, because that's when it worked. [00:47:47] Oh, yeah, it's funny, I can't, I must be recalling with rose tinted glasses. I know that there were lots of situations where big dreams fell through. [00:48:00] There was hates and hates the energy behind stuff. And you know, for example, even the show night, the kind of big performance night, I was just like, how is this going to happen? Nothing has been set up, you know, it's like, yes. But like, My God, we need a sound system. And he does that the other thing, and of course, everyone's honors, you know, just on the own goddamn time. And, you know, [00:48:21] by the internet, you know, okay, so it didn't start till 11 o'clock at night, or whatever it was, it wasn't that bad. But, um, but when it happened, it was awesome. You know, it was totally amazing. And, and, yeah, [00:48:36] it's really beautiful. Kairos, you know, stuff happens this? Yeah. I guess lots of those kind of vulnerabilities. [00:48:47] Saying people recover from them when they've got people around them that they know, don't know. Yeah, [00:48:54] it's really beautiful. [00:48:57] And does that come back to the Copa star? Which kind of list of what 15 things about how you actually treated people? Yeah. [00:49:05] I don't know. I don't know how well that worked. Like, and it was great to have it via but I think that the kind of environment that the young people created themselves and moderated themselves. [00:49:20] We did go back to that stuff. And we needed to at various points, but [00:49:26] yeah, they, they kind of, we had we had it set up was that we had people called Martha Haynes that was mama hands or puppet hands or mappings for the watching the Floyd. [00:49:39] And [00:49:40] I mean, they were kind of youth facilitator in one of the cabin. So there were the people that everybody would kind of go to have their head stuff going on. And that was just some sort of ritual that he ran, felt good and safe at night and all of that sort of thing and would have chickens that at mealtimes. So that was kind of the first sort of political or the people had a buddy system. So the 1% was buddy. And then the kind of next layer out from there, we kind of thinking of a report would be the mapper, him and the, and the capital and then and then the mapping in header. We sort of use a bit of the kind of China concept, you know, [00:50:21] not as well as we could good learning there. But we had a Turkana crew who were basically that that core group that I spoke about earlier, so that was the like the kind of, they started off as bit lots of them were in the kind of Youth Advisory crew, but then invited all of you know, some of the other leaders and facilitators from all around the country to kind of be part of that as well. So there was good representation and and then so we did a training day with them with all the Turkana crew the day before the actually everyone arrived at night. [00:51:00] Yes, around around lots of that type of stuff, how are we going to look after spies, how we were going to deal with conflicts, tricky situations, you know, self harming whatever it was all of that kind of fun stuff that that's present, you know, trauma and as well as all the good stuff, but how we kind of look after each other basically. And so there were those sort of levels and layers of, of support that people had. And I think that the top kind of crew us that cope up with that we developed a lot just in terms of kind of working with each other and peer supervision supporting each other and things like that. We also had the flyer out from that was [00:51:45] out [00:51:47] at automakers, for a basically all of the tour Canada had [00:51:55] a non youth person who was there to support them, basically. So some what some of it at automakers head, maybe to talk kind of Turkey attack. And basically the whole project, while they were there was just a chicken with the metro, they were the sort of that backstop, or that kind of mentoring relationship. And then, and then we also had so Tommy is the executive director at rainbow youth and Manny Mitchell, as you know, awesome, awesome person. And a counselor. So Manny and Tommy and myself was sort of, I guess, the final backstop the four in the morning banging on the door. There's a situation. Yeah, [00:52:42] so that kind of stuff. So I guess. Yeah, in terms of process, I think that's quite interesting, because it's quite unique. That system that we developed for, to basically support as much kind of autonomy and independence as we could, but also to make sure that they were just all those kinds layers of backup and community. So people felt really so the young people felt really held and [00:53:08] yeah, and like they could take risks, and like there was good stuff that could happen. But but also that we kit that we took here. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:20] Do you think that the whole kind of atmosphere of that we have like a trickle down effect basically coming from the organizing group down? Or was it more a thing that was actually made up of the people from that actually attended? [00:53:41] I think in terms of tone, lots of [00:53:46] I think the two are kind of CO really presented, like, I guess energetically or in terms of how they were with each other in terms of the kind of the communication that they modeled, that was really important. And I think people really picked up on that. So we really wanted to work with that idea of not having, we didn't have any roles, and we didn't want to have any kind of didactic you know, disciplinary and all that stuff, it just totally doesn't work with that. with, you know, with that philosophy and that way of working. So [00:54:19] it's, you know, the best thing you can do is actually be really conscious about [00:54:25] about modeling really cool, positive, empowering, you know, non discriminatory behavior, [00:54:34] and symmetry discriminating, you know, stuff that makes people feel shut, you know, not doing that. And, [00:54:45] and actually actively making sure that [00:54:48] that stuff doesn't happen. So, I think, yeah, I think most of it happened through [00:54:55] through a lot, lots of that kind of [00:54:58] world tour, kind of China, Nemec. And [00:55:03] just why is it working? being modeled? Yeah. Yeah. [00:55:08] To be honest, it's kind of hard to say because, you know, [00:55:11] I think that, I don't think that I had a day off for, like, 30 days before the whole a and then it was, you know, I was certainly didn't sleep much that week on the lead up, you know, it was just, it was a, it was a really, really big mission, you know, and that was because of the timeframe. And because we genuinely did it in a youth lead youth way. So it just means that instead of one phone call, it's like, 15 takes 12 follow up phone calls, you know, like, all these kind of layers of Yeah, which is, which is co it's just the way that has to be done. But yes, so basically, by the time the who actually came, and the fact that we probably were getting two or three hours sleep a night, [00:55:55] I'm probably not the best person to talk. [00:56:00] The young people, you know, say amazing stuff about it. And I, you know, like anything, there was lots of really great stuff and lots of, you know, really good kind of learning areas. But um, yeah, [00:56:12] I don't feel like I have a really good overview of how everything actually worked. During the Hawaii, you know, when you just kind of throw embedded and then detail that Yeah, yeah. But [00:56:27] you just mentioned like emails and texts and stuff, what did you find was the best form of communication with wise people? [00:56:35] Um, [00:56:37] well, by the end of it, we're kind of arming you know, for the next people that hosted a national holiday, there's some really good systems [00:56:45] which we refined afterwards. So yeah, it was titled work in progress, you know, and Sam, sure, who [00:56:54] has that, you know, project manager stuff and does the admin for it Rambo youth as, you know, a genius when it comes to that kind of stuff. But even so, just because we just had, we're dealing with such huge numbers and kind of, yeah, it's such a kind of chaotic environment, it just, [00:57:15] there was really no good system, rather than other than it was just all the relationship stuff, knowing who's was friends with who to call if you couldn't get hold of them, and who, you know, being really conscious of all of that stuff of how people wanted to be contacted. So because lots of young people, you know, the issues around family or, or the living situations that they needed to kind of be, you know, out of such programmatic weird, but you know, that the privacy was really important. So, yeah, [00:57:47] I guess it actually depended, it was different for everybody. Really easy. But Facebook, awesome. You know, Facebook, definitely, probably the best method. Definitely, if you can just get somebody on the phone and talk to them. Awesome. But sometimes tricky. Yeah. So not Yeah, but tend to be with young people and not not landlines, and usually not mobile calls, mostly texting or Facebook. [00:58:15] And do you think having gone around the country doing the face to face thing? Was that an integral part on in terms of of actually establishing those connections? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I just think, you know, yeah, [00:58:30] it's just, it's relationships, that's face to face stuff. It's, you know, young people. [00:58:38] You think he meant as a big deal? You know, like it. So it's lots about [00:58:46] there's no shortcuts? I guess there's the thing. Yes. So that it was really great that there was I had that time to sort of race around the country and doing it, there are places I couldn't get other people would go there. [00:58:58] We came up with a kind of workshop format, which we like that. And yeah, [00:59:03] but it's lots about that. But I think now, things are in a really different place, because lots of young people have made much kind of deeper connections over the last year. So it's sort of a step ahead now doesn't need to kind of get stuff doesn't, it wouldn't need to happen in the same way. Because now these these networks, that the way of which are functioning in whatever ways, so there was after, after the Hawaii, which was halfway through the year, the next half of the year, we kind of focused on [00:59:32] hosting these kind of video, video, Hawaii, like once a month, where whoever wanted to come from one of the regions would get together and just have a began for an hour about what the issues were what was going on. Just general kind of networking stuff, which was really awesome. [00:59:48] big issues there around accessibility. So, you know, [00:59:52] one of the other things that Randy is trying to do some work on at the moment is kind of supporting development of a rural network. [01:00:03] And because, you know, still this lot internet and things like that, and lots of places, and there's just so many layers around accessibility in terms of kind of, you know, financial, physical, cultural, you know, there's so many, so many challenges around accessibility, that, that hopefully, you know, this kind of generation of young people, we're going to get their teeth into much more and [01:00:33] Yeah. [01:00:35] Yep. If anyone has heaps of money. [01:00:41] Why? Because there's so many amazing things on the boil, and there's so much stuff that's just good to go. But it's, yeah, I mean, it really is. I hate saying that. That's an issue. But it really is a barrier, you know, I'd like this endless energy, this endless genius ideas of ways to develop this stuff, there's so much cool stuff happening around kind of trying to push some change around education. And, but yet, actually just needs to be financially supported. That's what, yeah, I reckon. [01:01:18] So how do you think we can do that? How do you think they can happen? [01:01:21] Um, so I'm just, I'm just cookies, I just need to be clear that I'm really, I'm talking about Oakland at the moment, because I'm here. And that is amazing, really important stuff happening all around the country. And there's lots of ways to slot into those kind of groups and ask, you know, I think that I think the best thing is, wherever people are around the country, you know, finding out who the who the youth, groups of youth, young people are in the area that are doing stuff, and actually just making contact with them and asking how they want to be supported, you know, so if I know that rainbow youth has a really good database now of what groups we're in, things like that. So if people wanted to kind of financially support groups locally, that would be a really cool way to do it. And other other ways is that literally like maybe supporting groups by by offering to do funding applications for them, or mentor them through funding applications, keeping area, if you hear of funding that's going that could work for them, just giving them a call or Facebook in and saying, Hey, have you heard of this? Do you want any help writing the application for this or whatever? [01:02:30] stuff like that, or up here is up in Oakland, outline and remember, youth are working on this campaign, really exciting campaign at the moment, the WT if one which will be close, hey, it's the what the fuck campaign, it's really exciting. And it's like, basically, the idea behind it is that lots of kind of big names will be making videos that are going to go viral. And so lots of it's already been shot. And some, you know, the idea is like, What the fuck, I can't take my partner to the school ball. [01:03:07] Hey, my mum's marriage doesn't recognize what the fact where all of this kind of like kind of looking at lots of the Yes, social justice issues related to creativity, we trends, MVP, fifth and six youth identities and, but but from a really different place. So similar to those kind of fact height campaign. And a net, yeah, it's a really different editorial, it's, it's lots more about, [01:03:37] hey, actually, what's going on, this is really bad, we've got a right to this, and, you know, this has got to get changed, not that kind of, he's given money will do will be really nice, and will be good queers and you know, all that sort of stuff. So it's a really different tech to hopefully, when that goes viral, that's basically creating opportunity for people to donate online to, you know, to that campaign, which which will be supporting stuff like this. The idea is that basically, you know, you just sit up a pee. So, you know, lots of young people I know, donating like $2 a month from their account, you know, from the pocket money or whatever. As well as all of the older people that have money, because what was sort of noticed, there's actually people that don't have money, who often a bit together, which is the real thing, and it'd be really cool to change that. But, yeah, but basically, whoever can just put on a regular donation. And I think that works on a couple level, that means that people feel kind of engaged with what's going on and [01:04:44] more of this interested in kind of going, I wonder what's happening with that, or maybe that initiates them doing their own stuff. As well as it just means that [01:04:54] you know, lots of the really exciting stuff around young people can get financially supported. So maybe the minutes unlikeable can contribute when it stuff happens. [01:05:02] Thinking of funding, and I'm wondering, [01:05:08] that kind of campaign, we're saying, you know, why the fuck is something not happening? Or you're saying, we want to create a space, we're a social space where people can come together. And that's really important. But with a lot of organizations, that fun stuff, they need to see deliverables they need to see outcomes. So how do you take those ideas and turn them into words that funders will say? I'll go for that? Yeah. Do you have any ideas? Well, [01:05:43] I mean, I think in a dream world, you know, there would be, you could partner with funders who kind of understood the process and the dynamics and the Copa that you're working with, basically. So you could actually say, hey, look, this is the long term vision, this is where we need to get to, the only way we're going to get there is through developing really [01:06:06] deep meaningful relationships and networks. And so it's going to take longer, but it's going to end it's going to be relationship based. And that's how we're going to give you a dream scenario. Otherwise, I think that it's, you know, [01:06:20] in kind of smaller or one off situations, I think it's about being, you know, [01:06:26] getting some help to write a funny applications and just working out how to strategically like basically just match whatever the funders are funding, finding a way to, you know, [01:06:41] without being dishonest with what you're doing, how what you're doing actually [01:06:48] lines up with whatever it is that they say that they're going to fund. Because I think one of the big things, particularly with young people, and you know, queer and trans organizing, is that there's a lack of confidence in our like, there's this kind of [01:07:04] this, there's not that sense of entitlement that there is another places, which kind of sucks, because it means that people are organizing these really important events and community development, youth development stuff, but they just think it's their infinite, they don't think that it's they deserve money for it or whatever. So [01:07:25] that's, yeah, that's an issue, I guess it's like about [01:07:30] people I know, sometimes, I can think of situations where young people have got together and sort of worked on funding stuff together, and actually helped each other writers. And, and, you know, [01:07:41] if you say, I want to do this thing, I want to bring these people together to talk about this stuff. Because I think there's real problems around blah, blah, blah. And then if, you know, saying that out loud, and brainstorming that with someone can help you work out otherwise, to say that, which I mean, that's a really valid, really important thing to do. And you can get funding to do that, sometimes, but it's just about [01:08:09] Yeah, I guess, building the confidence to know how to frame it and know how to say it, or to write it or whatever. And I guess, yeah, my recommendations with that is to get support, like, find people who have been getting funding and offer them make them excited for reading your funding application and helping you out with it, you know, yeah. [01:08:33] And that funding application would be the words that you would use to a funder that you wouldn't use to the group that you're applying funding for? [01:08:43] Hell yeah. Yeah, [01:08:45] totally. Yeah, I think, I think part of it of learning to kind of walk between worlds as as learning to shift your language to get what you know, to, to be able to get stuff happening. You have to pay through joke about how you say things. And, and I don't think that it's about not having integrity, I think that it's about you being strategic. So yeah, [01:09:08] I mean, I can think of [01:09:12] times I've had to kind of frame things in this kind of really gross charitable language, which I find really offensive and problematic. But I know that if I do it, I can get $300 towards this project, which, [01:09:27] which I can guarantee is not going to have any of that flavor. And you know, but that's Yeah. [01:09:33] Yes. [01:09:37] You mentioned the workshop process. Just before, I'm just wondering, could you just outline for me what that was when you're going around or getting other people to go around the country? Yeah, [01:09:45] that was I think I was talking about that a bit about that, before it was [01:09:51] basically going around in and letting people know what the opportunity was getting them excited about it. And yeah, running exercises, which enabled them to kind of visualize how, how they wanted to take it in where they wanted to take it to, and, [01:10:12] and about getting that kind of alchemy of, of want and giving or like, of Yeah, [01:10:19] them kind of coming up with what the biggest wildest dreams were, and in realizing that they actually had lots of those skills to kind of manifest that year. So that's what most of those exercises [01:10:32] were around. What about the situation on those? [01:10:37] those workshops where you're walking into a group, you've never met any of them before? And how do you win them over? how did how do you make them want to be part of the thing that you're wanting to do? Yeah. [01:10:50] And I had this really, really weird experiences. me feeling like my dad, like feeling like a total dork. You know, like, as a next one of his call it a valence one of I remember that was, but it was kind of a real shock for me going on God. Oh, totally. Like, I just, you know, kind of actually, before doing that stuff, more or less identifying as a young person, I guess, in lots of ways. And then I'm not Yeah, I don't know, maybe because I had a lot of other friends that kind of boys felt. I mean, suddenly being in these situations where I didn't understand the language or like, it's just yeah, it was a title, like, low opinion geek. And [01:11:31] I think, I guess, is where I'm coming with it is. I think it's just about authenticity. Yeah. About [01:11:39] not trying to be anything that you're not. And that people respond to that. Yeah. So yeah, [01:11:49] I guess it's just about, yeah, being really straight up and up front about who you are, and why you be here. What what your own kind of excitement is about the project. And, [01:12:02] and we use the the scope, but also, I guess, that that she about having really, really good facilitation skills to actually be able to, you know, and I'm still learning, I think that's a lifelong learning. But I know that particularly actually with within the community, youth communities that I was working with last year, there's some phenomenal facilitators like, all around the country, actually. And I've seen I've worked with young people, and lots of different communities. And it is, I mean, I've just never seen such amazing skills, as I was saying, within the kind of queer trends. sector where youth communities. Yeah, so that's, that's amazing. In terms of one of the kind of awesome resources, I think that there is, that's one of them. So but, yeah, yeah, [01:12:54] I guess it's just about [01:12:56] being super alert before you go on. And click of all of that kind of holding space, facilitating opening up enough room and putting enough energy out there that that people can kind of pick up and want to run with what you're doing. But but you're also not sort of setting up false expectations will kind of [01:13:20] Yeah, that's an interesting challenge. I talking about limits without being limiting. Yeah. [01:13:28] So I guess, working with that really sort of strength based model was a really great way to do that stuff, because it's building on, I guess, part of it, facilitating is supporting the conversation to kind of come back to, you know, initially go really huge and really out there. I mean, it's not actually about bringing it down. It's about trying to find the kind of [01:13:55] the skills and the room and the talents and everything that that can match some of this stuff, which will look different to how it initially looked. Because probably, you know, [01:14:08] Gaga and Nelson Mandela can't turn up at the boy. But, you know, we can have amazing performers and really powerful speakers and, and the young people would realize that it was them. And I think that's the that's the magic. And when you when you can facilitate [01:14:27] those kind of realizations to happen then just watching what the young people do with it is such a buzz, you know, it's really humbling. Yeah. [01:14:37] It sounds like the who he was just the most amazing experience for for a lot of people that were involved. And I'm kind of reflecting back on the experience I had with the Asia Pacific out games, and Willington, which was just three or four days of really intense, amazing, exhilarating experiences. And ice suddenly noticed that I kind of had this kind of come down period at the end, but how do you? [01:15:07] I'm assuming I'm not the only person that has that kind of experience? How do you [01:15:12] try and work with that kind of come down period after something like that? How do you how do you make it not so bad? Yeah, [01:15:21] great question. Um, do you mean for everybody else, so for me, [01:15:30] um, I guess I guess my experience with that is, you know, [01:15:37] as a practicing artist, I got quite good at that, because I realized that, you know, I remember in my 20s, after we did [01:15:45] join, with a really choice, amazing group of [01:15:50] people called the girls project. And we Yeah, we would do kind of, you know, [01:15:57] all move into a with reenter it a big kind of empty warehouse, move in for four months, or quit our jobs, and gone the door. And [01:16:09] basically painful times that we'd workshop during the day, which is kind of concept we want to work with, and then go back to our studios, which will build in the space and make work be making working in [01:16:20] together at night and party, and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then we would build our own gallery and the space. So we did that on keep Australia couple of times, and literally, like build the floor and the walls. And it was amazing. So it kind of tailor make these spaces for the work and, and would have workshops during the exhibition and all of that sort of stuff. But so I mean, that was just kind of a perk, but actually amazing, you know, learning curve. And yeah, we did some really cool stuff. And, and [01:16:50] during that was, I think, before that I'd kind of done, you know, shows, and you always felt a bit blue afterwards, but I wasn't sure when quite worked out what that was. But then because that was the kind of big scale because it was such a kind of big investment of everything, you know, we throw our whole selves into it. And then afterwards, we just, you know, I remember one time just being, you know, with, there's about four of us. And [01:17:13] I mean, you know, we were hung over and stuff, but we just flatline on flow cry. [01:17:21] This is weird. We didn't take any drugs without coming down what's Go on, you know, like I couldn't, I was just so emotional. And it was the first time that I kind of went, Oh, hold on, maybe that's connected to, you know, and sort of consecutively since the end for my whole life, always after a project. It's like, you know, the post show blows that hurt? And, you know, [01:17:42] too little credit degrees, but I think, yeah, I think the thing is, now for me, it's just being really aware that that's part of the process, and to expect it and anticipate it. And yeah, [01:17:57] and just so you know, I kind of now know, that I have to take into account that is, you know, I just need a little bit of time off or time out afterwards. [01:18:09] And that I can just like, you know, go to daytime movies and have hot baths and have a cry if I need to. And, you know, actually, after this last tour, we went and I went over to Sydney to a thing called Camp B, which was the kind of [01:18:28] big [01:18:33] was it six gender politics kind of have a slash party thing and, you know, thinking that'll be a really nice kind of regenerating, you know, basically go to participate in something and not have to lead or do any of that and not have to organize and it'll be you know, perfect color homeopathic NGOs. And yeah, totally wasn't it back. And then I got really sick. And then I had the flu. And [01:19:03] yes, I slept with my wife these like, cold, horrible we have [01:19:11] like, [01:19:15] feeling guilty. That [01:19:18] was really funny. [01:19:20] And in the end, he I mean, it was it was some kind of big, you know, food, not bombs kind of thing or something for a bunch of us just like on the verge of tears and [01:19:31] to take you down to a lovely [01:19:34] little restaurant and really finish and I pastor I felt [01:19:40] so yeah, I think it was Yeah, I think it's just like, yeah, you know, factor in and that you just need to [01:19:50] give yourself some time out and cut yourself some slack. Yeah. [01:20:00] So with the participants, I mean, to do kind of cover bit at some point, of course, but [01:20:07] yeah, [01:20:09] I think for most of the groups, young people, the, the crew that they came up with these kind of debrief time on the bus on the way home, and all that sort of stuff, and, you know, lots of the young people I know, got really kind of did get a bit blue after it, you know, because it's such a kind of beautiful, real experience to have that reflection, and, you know, and that's a work in progress, you know, particularly around accessibility stuff, but, but it was still some kind of reflection and [01:20:38] enter given us and I think that, particularly for young people going back to, you know, who live in the middle of nowhere, or, or, you know, whatever the situation is, yeah, [01:20:49] it was a big deal. But then again, Facebook was just like hot for like, a month afterwards. The people created their own page for the people that have been at the high end, you know, I pay per view. [01:21:04] And then, you know, I did pay, like, 15 responses, hey, you know, or I blah, blah, blah, or do on Skype or send me a number and optics Do you know, this kind of really awesome support network of, of everybody's sort of being in the same boat a little bit around that stuff? And, and yeah, I mean, I was, when I got back and thrown off there, I was, like, all choked up. It's just really nice to see. Yeah, [01:21:33] just that awesome initiative and support and, and, you know, it actually doesn't matter if you feel like shit, if everyone else is also feeling like shit, and you're kind of hanging out bonding over that, you know, for a short period of time. That's okay. And and it's only sad, because he had such a beautiful thing. So it's sort of Yeah, I guess it's like that yummy, kind of French melancholy or something. You can experience that in that way instead of in the car. Yeah, I think the only time it's a problem, that's when you don't anticipate it. And then it's, you know, it sucks. Because you don't know what it is. [01:22:09] And I have to say that after the kind of feeling of blue, there's there's an absolute afterglow that certainly with the Asia Pacific stuff, that in the years to come, I will look back and go. Wow, that was so cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm assuming that will be the same and the situation as well. Yeah. Yeah, [01:22:28] I totally agree. I think there and one interesting thing is I have noticed, though, is around kind of burnout stuff. As you know, I think for myself, a couple of years back, I really burnt out quite badly for probably the second or third time anyway, getting better at that. But what I noticed with that was that actually, I wasn't getting that after go afterwards, I was just like, knackered, you know, and I think that, again, it's just a big issue around resource sign about trying to hold down a job and do your projects, and it and upright does, and maintaining relationships, and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, [01:23:04] I think that's kind of, I think, you know, we were talking about kind of working strategically before and I think that, for me, part of the stuff that I've learned around organizing is [01:23:16] to learn to sometimes take on lease and do it in a way that can feel really great about doing it. And we're not having to take shortcuts that you're feeling crappy about and, and so that afterwards, you actually can you do have the time resource and energy to actually do that follow through and follow up. And yeah, [01:23:37] I can't I can't emphasize that enough. You know, even with the Kazem project, it was like, actually, by the end of it, you know, we were just so rich, like, we had just used every last drop of everything. And I felt because of that I wasn't able to come up with all this, you know, I wasn't able to be in all those places, I really felt like I needed to be to kind of, you know, [01:24:01] thank people enough for being there, or participating, and all that sort of stuff that, and it she, yeah, I guess it wasn't good enough. So, which is fine. It's a learning but it's like, [01:24:14] I think part of that thing about when you are organizing stuff, you know, and I don't think of myself as an organizer, but just kind of weird having this conversation because then I go, Oh, my God, weird. I've been organizing things my whole life. But, um, but I think part of one of the good things about admitting that that is what you do, is that Yeah, maybe some of the processes around that you're able to be more clear or be clear and more strategic about so [01:24:42] if you don't have the resources and the people to, to kind of do the whole process and do the follow up and look after yourself and each other at the end of it. Maybe the more the more you do these things more, you become realistic about the amount of time and energy it takes to do them. And perhaps more you can shape sizable, you know, appropriately sized projects that you can actually do and feel good about. Because if you don't feel good about the Indian, it's just like, God, that was just like two years of my life. And all my money and energy and heart gone into it and I'm just raped. Yes, I said I shake

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