Session 4 - C.L.I.T Fest Wellington 2013

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by clip feast in association with pride in [00:00:06] So what I'm going to talk about today is like policing, health practices, and ideas of health, and I wanted to quit really quickly, like individual placing of the instructor placing at that, and I'm blessed to go but about the disabled or non conforming for a [00:00:26] little bit, [00:00:27] and talk about kind of exclusion of people. Sort of. So yeah, it's kind of going to start with me. [00:00:39] Yeah, so I'm going to start talking about health and how people plus police then and then if you don't have the right kind of body in, you know, kind of what happens in public spaces. [00:00:50] Okay, so I'm, [00:00:53] I'm really interested in I guess, like police and health practices, because 10 seconds to child and sort of free bait on those lots of kind of like, you've got to, you've got to try a lot of kind of natural about how, like how the term important and one reason I was hoping I wouldn't be the first person to talk was a second, someone were talking about [00:01:15] kind of matches around health and how that's really important. [00:01:21] As opposed to other narratives around the body. But actually, I kind of want to challenge natural health, that it's a positive narrative that we have. Because, or I don't believe that happens under our control for one thing. [00:01:39] And I think that absolutely, [00:01:43] you know, kind of hindered my strength. While you know, people have not been stopping, you can stop him in Atlantic elements or anything like that. There's lots of ideas, but you know, have you tried this diet? Have you tried this therapy? Has try and invest? And then of course, you know, this the How am I Oh, yeah, don't eat that. It's really unhealthy. Also great reading that it's really healthy. And it's quite [00:02:13] a quite a negative thing. [00:02:16] And I think that there are kind of this individual placing and that kind of stuff, but there's also structural placing of that. So I'm sort of like, you know, individually, it was kind of like, you know, this week, this week is there where we're not going to eat gluten, or we're not going to eat dairy, what we're going to try this disgusting health thing, which is like revamping, like me to Sunday have to take off and I'll be like, Oh, no, that's terrible. But maybe we should try a little bit longer. [00:02:50] And I think that [00:02:54] and it's not just kind of LL bodies that are kind of presented with this narrative that like, you know, my art so good, and hates morality. And so that's why I kind of start off with an offer one way. So there's lots of kind of, you know, like, it's really good, it's a really good thing to kind of do stuff you have. And, and it's not that good if you're doing stuff, which is bad for your house. And that kind of, so, yeah, I'm an engineer, actually, from this really, I found damaging. But I'm, also structurally there's a lot of, there's a lot of push to be doing the right thing, doing the happy thing, doing the moral thing. You know, we've got to be good citizens, and we've got to lay exercise and ate rice and not smoke and do this and do that. And, you know, we're punished if we, you know, we kind of punished by individuals by society if we don't, uh, and, and that can be just kind of disapproval. But it can be a lot more than that, you know, like, if you throw a kind of really serious consequences to not meeting kind of health, moral health standards, which are like, you know, if you, if you smoke being you can't have this medical procedure kind of thing, you know, like, you're doing something Thank you have, so we're not going to give you this sort of treatment, or that kind of stuff. You know, if you're above BMI, you can't have IV treatment, that kind of stuff, you know, we're like, you're, you have an unhealthy body. So the father to me, like, kind of structural consequences is going to be kind of real, real consequences in the world. And that concept, so I wanted to, I'm just trying to, I'm trying to, it's quite hard to figure out how much I can talk about this stuff. [00:05:00] Okay, um, [00:05:05] maybe I'll move on to the next bit, and then just say, um, I think that, um, so, the yet, so there's a lot of pressures, kind of having a healthy body and doing healthy things. And, you know, I can actually, I just want to say, like, I think on an individual level, it's really complicated, because often people who, you know, like, say, trying to place your health and that kind of stuff comes to be really close to us. And that's really complicated. But I kind of actually don't think we have responsibility to be healthy. You know, I think, I mean, I guess it's more complicated when you start thinking about, you know, your children, and stuff like that, but I don't think there are many circumstances, and I think their hopes and things like religious. But I don't think that we are at to eat to be healthy, I don't think we are to the stage. And I don't think we owe it to people in our lives. [00:06:13] So I also kind of want to show that [00:06:17] much more kind of personal experience have had a flat kind of, if you if you don't make you know, if you're not healthy, or if you don't have a healthy body, or you don't have a body that conforms to society being [00:06:34] there, you excluded from society file decks, kind of you found that bar thing, half the kind of stuff. So [00:06:44] yeah, I'm just trying to get some examples of that kind of stuff. [00:06:50] I mean, this kind of way, lots of stuff that's come up. Recently, that kind of structural explosion from stuff, which is like, access to places kind of physical access to places and when I talked about this further, they usually, like totally fine, here's my experience of like, physical disability. But that's not, you know, honestly, the only way that people are excluded either because of disability or because of other things. So there's kind of the sort of structural stuff about [00:07:29] being sort of physically excluded from places [00:07:34] that, say, human beings want to ban. And, you know, like, you know, I'm very unlikely to be excluded from places like sort of hospitals, or libraries, and that kind of stuff, which is really important, but I'm a lot more likely to be excluded from places like, bands. And it's kind of like this narrative about what kind of bodies should be in more places. Yeah, so, you know, there's no kind of requirement to have sort of non public buildings be accessible. And lots of possibilities, not a display there. Let's face it, but um, yeah, who's kind of which, you know, I think it creates another narratives about who deserves to be and what places. And, you know, I liked orange bars, and I like going to music thingies and that kind of stuff. But you know, this whole kind of like, yeah, these people are kind of put into, there's some things which are essential and those non essential stuff, which some people, it's okay. [00:08:39] And it's cool. [00:08:44] And yeah, sorry, I was gonna say something else about that. [00:08:57] This on, this [00:08:59] is another really cool example of that stuff, which is I wrote my thesis about central driving, which is really exciting stuff. And I'm one of the people who I interviewed for my face [00:09:13] was talking about how [00:09:20] nice compact so this is an Oakland, [00:09:23] which were mobility, half accessory. [00:09:27] But this my building, Carfax were only mobility compacts from nine o'clock in the morning to six o'clock at night. And it's, it's the whole thing of like keynote, use disabled people might have to sleep the house during the day to go to things like doctors appointments and things like that can be scrutinized, even if you don't act on it night time. And you know, you don't want to be in public spaces in the evening where you might be doing something frivolous, like socializing with people. [00:09:58] So yeah, I think I was I'm sorry. [00:10:02] You know, that's really bad. And then this individual, I just want to replace that. Okay, that individual explosion from public spaces. And [00:10:13] I know, it's really complicated, but one of the ways that I [00:10:17] experienced this in lots of ways, but one of the lies that I think is really damaging and, or it's been really upsetting is when people come into my body and public spaces. So, you know, I do go out to music venues and stuff like that, but, and, you know, you know, some drunk guy will come up to me, and you know, what's coming next past me really, sort of intimate and intrusive, and I'm sitting thinking about my medical history and life, you know, experience of being siloed. And it's that whole thing of life. And, you know, other examples of better life, people coming up to me, instead of being like, ah, can I can I pray for you, or, you know, there's all kinds of ways that you can be individually, kind of, on a one on one level, they kind of pushed out of public spaces. And I think that's really, and [00:11:13] I'm sure what people are experiencing. And [00:11:15] it's not just something that people experience [00:11:17] because of disability, I think there are lots of kind of non conforming bodies where, you know, and I think a lot of women experienced this, we are, you know, your body is, is to be commented on, and public spaces, and then I think that really pushes people, you know, to community or, you know, you know, it reminds you that there's a, there's an element that you don't really deserve in public, and that kind of stuff. Yeah, [00:11:45] I should stop talking, because they're excited people to come. [00:11:56] Very good at talking to my phones, may try just to get my what's that what's [00:12:01] on. So I had to kind of [00:12:04] look bad, because it seems timely, is you know, two days ago, or three days ago, there's this horrific racist cartoon about that topic, if you will, children's food, it's their fault about poverty. And obviously, that cartoon Kingdom explicitly right wing and racist and reactionary place. And what I will talk about is the left wing versus that dialogue. And what I'm going to talk about is the left wing version, what I call it is we have to hate poor people's bodies to save them, the the left wing, where this all comes from, and kind of how its constructed. And where I'm going to start. And so just briefly, there's a longer left wing history of associating that with capitalism, which goes back to some of it goes back to the 16th century, which is the idea of gluttony and Mark Mark, I'm all for it a not really good talk about that today it exists, it is sleep now completely counter to any narration, reality, the associating that with capitalism does sometimes complicate things. So [00:13:12] what I want to talk about [00:13:14] today is [00:13:16] is the post association of fact, and [00:13:23] working class people and fat and in fact being the reason for may be detrimental to detrimental to the reason that working class people's lives are attending classes people talk about is the way that health is constructed in that so and when I was, but I was thinking what kind of my classic example of that cartoon as I observed it happening in real life among left when people was when I was up in the depositions for operation a puts kind of tons of things that were the motion for me, but may not mean that much a lot of people here but anyway, um, so it says, so it was part of part of the race and part of that kind of stuff. And there were all these people are found as a group of people has provided food. And I can talk about that But what was interesting about the food, the food was quite familiar to people who moved into urban park er, circles but whether or not they were Paki out the food was familiar to them. And it was wasn't familiar to people from to people who've lived in Turkey, who come up from under Turkey, and there was a young married woman, young, reasonably fat body woman with four children who took them to Burger King. She came back, and a thin, older white woman who was totally used to a thorough she was talking about the delicious food she was, young modern woman said, I took my kids to Burger King. And the older white woman said, Well, at least you're shutting the fact that [00:14:57] and that it's not at all unusual. That idea that [00:15:07] basically, that people don't know what decisions they're making, they don't making the right decisions. And is it something that I see all the time, I kind of want to break down the process, breakdown, clear, the fallacies will break down? What's wrong with that narrative? And I think the first thing I want to say is with this idea of Housley. And the idea that there is this unit healthy as a quality in things, not a relationship to our bodies, not names. So food gets labeled as healthy, not depending on what you what on you, and what you need and where you are. But, and like what is a total sets of emotional sets of the financial sets, and all that kind of sets. But as an intrinsic quality food, you know, there's some really obvious examples of that I am hideously allergic to dairy products, you know, your low fat yogurt is health food as a wholesale Haskins video about it, which I recommend you look at if you haven't this amazing video about your health food. And obviously, if I should, I should take before that yoga, you know, and and that's, that's just one example. But obviously, you know, again, if we go back to the kids stories in Burger King, foods that they ate, it's healthier for them than food that they don't eat. And there's the classic example of you know, that often people, if you if you said, Oh, you're getting your question around that you have that food, and usually, after the chocolate bar, what should you eat and eat? apples be healthy? And of course, the answer is, if you can you see both, because you need a lot of calories to last you for that. So there's lots of examples where food and things get labeled as healthy. And I think that the important thing is to just reject that label entirely. That there is, you know, and talk about the relationship between people and things. But it's more than that. Because really specifically, what gets labeled healthy is middle class, middle class food, middle class activities. And the classic example, again, from the same set of experiences. And most nights on that food was cooked by automatic women who cooked food that they were familiar with. One day, they went to the quarter, they didn't cook, and other people did cook. And they made a pastor salad with rice with Pastor and like vegetables and stuff. And it was really, and everybody there, including the woman who normally cooks wisdom about how healthy it was. nutritionally, it's no different in profile from private and Cooper. But because it was partly our food, it should be enlightened, healthy, and thorough, you continue all sorts of examples, that is a really amazing blog post about but from God running the space expensive enough, it gets called healthy PC could have about like $5 bag of chips that are sold and kind of said to calyx, which all of that hand moral they are in house don't ground them out, and all this kind of stuff. And of course, I'm that association with middle middle class and healthy that was, you know, that was actually a huge time was a huge revelation to me, because I was so used to, I guess what I was used to having grown up as a middle class kid is the idea that what I did naturally was healthy, you know, like that the food that was naturally naturally to me, and the food that I naturally cooked, that, you know, within the space of everything else that that was healthy and nutritious and would would would [00:18:52] would confess what kind of had that kind of label. And other realize that that process of thinking about that kind of excluded a whole bunch of other people from labeling their food that way, and labeling their home food that way. And the food that is not middle class ends up getting familiarized. And, and I guess the third thing I want to say about that is to suggest that this has a huge impact on people's well being. And a little bit academic. And this is a really amazing study of which was done in the 80s. But when I went to two hotel chains, and then one hotel chain, they told them both this thing about the virtue of exercise. And they were showing it to the mates who are basically, you know, walking, stripping beds doing things for seven and a half hours a day. Okay, since what's interesting is someone said that they didn't know exercise. And, and any study you see about the benefits of exercise will be about the benefits of leisure exercise. And that's what gets classified as exercise and the fact that workplace exercise, it's both different and much not like Like, like, like you'd have the same effects and more likely to damage your body and blah, blah, blah, and leave you unable to, you know, with any energy left to do leisure exercise. So this is interesting, at least people who these women who were working 700 hours a day, and lots of them consider themselves doing no exercise. But the other thing is, which I just find fascinating and really important is that these women, they gave, they talk, they talked to one group generically that benefits of exercise, may talk to the other group about the benefits of exercise and says, and the government particularly recommends stooping and the sorts of things that you're doing. And then I came back a month later. And in all sorts of health vicious, the people who've been told what they were doing is healthy, we're doing better. So the process of may have labeling middle class, what is open and accessible and available to middle class people does actual damage. It is a process whereby you say this is this is healthy, and this is not. And it's a process of exclusion. And it's a process of claiming a lot of the benefits, the social benefits of like the label healthy, a lot of the kind of placebo benefits and all that kind of stuff to middle class people and exclude them to working class people. And I guess, I guess the other thing I wanna say, which is possibly going off into the tangent, but it's a quite recent process, the, the, it's been getting worse when it comes to fat bodies, the fact that bodies has been getting worse in the last 10 years. And I would argue that that it is a result of certainly, at least partly in response to the politics that the if you look at the history of a little bit of research into, and if you look at the history of, of poverty as health and bodies, in the 1990s, the national government said, well, it's their fault, you know, it was straight up, it's, you know, if it comes with it, you know, it's a personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then the obesity epidemic, obesity epidemic, as a, as a construct that exists. Now, [00:22:25] that was basically invented in New Zealand government, and what I think was happened, what happened. And I think there's quite a lot of evidence for this, if you look at kind of how the public discourse around it is that they looked around, and they saw the massive inequalities. And these inequalities were affecting people's health. And rather than saying, and there was no pulling this by, like said, governments do anything and massive redistribution of wealth, or to address the inequality. And so but they, but they weren't prepared to just be like individual people's fault. So the basically epidemic became a way that they could appear to be addressing things structurally, but actually blaming individuals, and it has an it has that it has it that I think its purpose is to appear to address things structurally, but actually put responsibility for diversity, health comes and things and individuals. And, you know, I probably could go on examples. But I, I guess the last thing I want to say is that this isn't new. And I, I do start with research. And if you look at wealth, money, villages of the 1930s, and 40s, they had incredible, incredibly poor health statistics compared to the rest of the country, they had women were living children, lifestyle for men is always a sign of really bad health, because because of the dangers of childbirth, and all that kind of stuff. And you get lots of middle class people at the time, contemporary say, Well, it's because the mothers have shot, and everybody went home 1926 and the children are doing better, is it better fed by these interfering, like by the by the school boards, because the mothers are feeding the president channel that's not healthy, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the thing is, you know, I mean, I'm not saying the, if we go for 20 years, but now we're still running ballets, and that was, you know, 30 years later, 40 years later, the world's money bellies do not have as much as discrepancy, there's been a huge increase and increase in, in general well being and longevity, you know, as much longevity. And you can bet that those mothers were still killing kids, brilliant, Jackie Chan is awesome. And the difference was the structural changes that have been made around having hot water in the house, and all those sorts of things. And then if you actually, you know, you can't hate poor people's bodies to save them, you have to believe that people as decision makers in their lives, and the only way to actually make real change in health outcomes is to make structural changes in the way society is. [00:25:12] I feel like well being [00:25:25] Okay, um, so I kind of wanted to start by talking about a way that I culture views the human body and by extension, the way that we view, things like health and fitness, and disability and food. And I'm going to use an example for science fiction. I'm going to use an example from Torchwood, which is a spin off of Doctor Who ever thought about a covert British government agency and we deal with methods of extraterrestrials and time travel and other science fiction e type things have been second episode, what I wanted to talk about is about a pharmaceutical company that creates this magical call to visit which cures that every disease and illness. And the way it works is that it resets your body back to factory settings, I think was really fascinated with human body has factory settings, because, as we all know, people are not created on a mass production line in a factory. So what does it mean to say that we have factories, it's like saying, this particular way that a human body is meant to be, and but your brain is meant to be. And I hear that a lot of people talk about bodies. You know, I hear people talk about the way their bodies are intended to be and for capabilities, but your body is supposed to have. So it's things like humans weren't meant to eat this kind of food, or now appears in US shouldn't be capable of doing this type of physical later, or humans weren't intended to live in this particular place. Humans weren't meant to go and live in outer space. [00:27:16] And when [00:27:18] this idea that any body with any kind of physical or neurological impairment or even deaf ears is a long body, because it doesn't fit its factories that needs to be fixed. And it's kind of an illogical discourse. I mean, I'm an atheist, I've subscribed with the evolution tells us that diversity in terms of genetic, physiological and neurological diversity is a really, really important for our survival as a species. But even if you believe that humanity was cared about the Netherlands and let this entire power of and you really do have to treat us better that power knows what it's doing, and that humiliation is there for a reason. So the question that means to ask is, why is this idea about a way that the human body is intended to be so popular? Who is benefiting from it? And what kind of social impact does it have, especially on people whose bodies don't fit that model? On 202, dominant narratives around disability and one is like, this person is an object of Tessie, you know, like, like Esther was saying about random strangers on the street, I think in season two. So you know, it's like, Oh, you poor helpless victim of future, you need that Cheers. And then, of course, you have the idea of student bodies of objects of content, which is the applied a lot to like, fat people, you know, people who are victims of the epidemic. And you know, so it's kind of like, it's your own fault, but your body is young, he just had forgot attitude and worked hard enough, you can overcome this. And it's also not just about bodies, but it's also about policy, you know, and that's exactly what our spirits can say is, like I told people I just proved because we stupid and spend all the money on alcohol and cigarettes and gambling. And that's something that we constantly hear people have health problems, because we stupid, we don't take good care of our bodies. And I think that catching completed for me something that a lot of middle class party, I really do believe. [00:29:51] On the surface. One time I was listening to national ad, they were interviewing an expert on nutrition about child poverty. And explain that to me and delivered very high protein and also be cheap, some people's kids will be fine if it was the kids delivery. And [00:30:17] when I was a kid, I was a really, really fussy eater. And I refuse to eat fruit or vegetables, and most kinds of meat. And my dad used to get so worried at first he hated but he tell me, food is medicine, you don't have to like it, just eat it because it's good for you, once you really is not how it works, people are machines, and from this moment, just few, we don't need to be TSS we need a high skirt. And we probably need more variety, and just all those things, you know, it's not about people being tacky or spoil is a good evolutionary reason for them, for what tastes good is likely to be free best place for you to eat. And that contains the nutrients that we need for most of us, which is faster tags, protein, and was also illusionary reason why most of us get bored if we eat the same thing over time, because we're waiting for more life that you actually have all your nutritional needs met. So not wanting to live on delivery is very reasonable. The idea that people can control the house and that therefore, you should blame people for being unhealthy is expressed in different ways. Sometimes you but you can manifest your destiny with your thoughts. So positive thinking is the way to go. And other times, it's that you can get what you want by Yay. And maybe if you help help guns, it's because you have displeased God in some way. And you've been punished. And I think the most common one, actually, in Western culture is that you can overcome policy or disability or illness through sheer willpower and determination and how week and what always had come SV it that if you are a disciple do with us back, it's your fault. And the idea of blaming the individual for the problem, like is pointed at Neo liberal ideology, which was all about dismantling collective responsibility and replacing it with individual responsibility. So you know, Margaret Thatcher famously said that isn't a society is only an individual and it was not a society. But I guess there's no such thing as social responsibility. And someone continued it because it lets us off the hook when it comes to supporting other people. You know, like watching my taxes pay for sickness and indolence benefits, because those people are disabled. And why should I put my energy into supporting people in my family had the mental illness bank? They just had the right attitude. And why should we build public spaces but don't disabled people that have flat access, for example, if we believe that anyone can overcome physical impairments, who had work and willpower, really no need to think about these things. The other really convenient thing about blaming people for their health problems, we don't have to feel stupid and can happen to us. You know, I can tell myself that I'm not going to get sick, because I don't eat meat, and I exercise I'm really healthy. Or maybe it's because I have a positive attitude. And they say positive affirmation. I actually once had a woman Tell me about how she went to India. And everyone else she was with got food poisoning, but she didn't because she said positive affirmations. Maybe we believe that because we pious, obviously David and I will mention and we have four dogs on our side, and he'll protect us. But we have I have an early terrifying thought. And life is much easier if we believe that we can protect ourselves from illness or Angie. kind of ironic that we have this culture, where on the one hand, people's health is viewed as an individual responsibility. Other people don't own anything. But at the same time, your health and your body is treated as public magic that everyone has to pass judgment on. It's like as he says, if your body doesn't fit, I'm really a model that shows that you are lacking in moral venture. And somebody else to think about in a capitalist economy, which kinds of bodies and family events parties, we can perform ways to work and fast today, economy and bodies were added to do so I excluded as disabled because it was seen as unimportant. [00:35:10] And I'm going to go with another example from science fiction, which is the Hunger Games and the last Hunger Games. But certain but spoilers. [00:35:25] In the last hundred days box is a rule between the government and liberals and regarding guns and bombs, the hospital soldiers and I can understand why the reason we do something like that, and his game expensive here is like, as far as the government is concerned, people are only useful if they can perform the kind of work but the government needs 22 and two people are not going to be good wages, so they're disposable. Um, I know I'm being quite academic and theoretical up until now, but I want to talk a bit about my personal experiences as well. I had ADHD with inattentiveness, which is one of the subtypes of ADHD. I wasn't diagnosed until I was 17. And I think this panel has to do with faces. Because kids with ADHD are more likely to be inattentive, but not hyper active. So be not very disruptive in class. They're not really impacting on teachers or kids as much so then far less likely to get notice it's far less likely to be seen as a problem. I think it also has a bit to do with racism, because I'm emigrated from a county which is westernized but not exactly wasted. So I don't think teachers had very high expectations of me. And if I was kind of quiet class and didn't participate a lot, and maybe had to do with learning things, to kind of put it down to the fact that I was in my head and my English traveling wasn't good enough, I kept we didn't know what was going on. Maybe I just wasn't very nice. And it was nice thing as an issue going on with undiagnosed ADHD meds, but I was constantly being told that I was lazy and unreliable in a study and stupid and socially it. And I don't think it's surprising, but I ended up with a whole host of mental illnesses like anxiety disorder and clinical depression. And more than that, like a general tendency not to test my own judgment. And that's something that is really dangerous, I think, especially for young women, because it makes you really valuable to us. Actually, I was diagnosed, my family's reaction was kind of like, you know, what's wrong with you. And I guess that's what I said earlier about big but very often he wanted his body in one kind of created with you intended to have some other senior diversity just as a medic thing. And was at the needed to be fixed. And we understand that you could manage ADHD diets, specifically a high protein, low carbohydrate diet. So basically, like Atkins for your brain, I became really obsessive about watching my food entertainment issue, but I ate right foods and also things like taking amino acid supplements and [00:38:28] flax, oil and [00:38:31] all that kind of crap. And I think you don't really need a psychology degree to work out. But that had a lot to do with feeling like I had very little control over my life and my body and my health. And the one thing that I couldn't be controlling, and that was stupid. And I think that kind of, you know, definitely is something that you need to fix does a lot of had to people because you know, we essentially people and different and lots of other ways people different skills and abilities, I think we can also affect with people's work in different ways. And some of us are just really concentrating and attention. And as we talked about before, about ways that she's disabled, someone with impaired mobility, I think, as someone who has ADHD, the ones that are disabled, I think like, the way that education is available, for example, when I was a university student, because what I did was he went to electricity. And you said before two hours and unless you talk said you, and I cannot move like that, you know, I have the time, I had no idea what lectures were talking about, because I just couldn't concentrate at all. And in activist spaces, it's things like people organizing meetings, and bears or cafes, or really noisy space is where I can concentrate on what people as side, because there's too much background noise, some other sort of things that we need to keep in mind if we want to build an inclusive movement where anyone can participate, and no one is disabled for a really long time. So I'm going to finish off, just by pointing out that capitalist economy requires a particularly state of moral values to sustain it, it requires a culture where most people have a little power and autonomy over our lives. But at the same time, we expected to take full responsibility for ourselves and not blame anything on the system, because that's a combat. And what we need to do is we need to turn that around on its head, we need to build a culture of collective responsibility, where everyone contributes according to the need, contributes according to your ability and kids according to their needs, so that nobody is disabled. And we need to build a culture where people actually asked us to be the experts on board. And that is bodily autonomy as a respected and best about health. It's also about things like you, guys, it's also about to work in the sex industry. It's also about chance people being able to transition. That's what we need as a culture that is space community and individual autonomy. [00:41:36] Okay, good. Okay, hi, I'm Roman. And I really ridiculous the profoundly new that soon forgive me if I don't make any eye contact with the crowd, until a woman. [00:41:47] Thank you guys very much. [00:41:51] Now, I was actually waiting up. Before I talked with her, I would try to sort of structure something that was very objective and quite academic, try to avoid talking personally, because I'm an Irish Catholic, and we don't talk about our feelings, at least we're very young. Given the issues that are being raised so far, particularly the issues that were relatively in association with food decisions, at least, it's been talking about with the control, and the stuff that crisis mentioned, with what kinds of relationships to food considered healthy and moral. I think actually, I'm just going to hit this straight up face and say that in addition to being a recovering Catholic, I'm also a recovering anorexic, and the relationship that I have, personally with food has allowed me to and ladies think quite a lot about the way that food and morality are very, very deeply related. And just sort of give us like a brief context. I mean, some of you probably know people who have eating disorders or have had them themselves. But what enrich series particularly is what psychologists refer to it as a disease of the super ego. And I think that's about right, if we're going to use the traditional forehand model is ecology, which, of course, is a bit daunting and very, very disproven, but a really good model for personhood within capitalism. Previously. He talks about desire, the, the ego, which is the sort of conceptualize self and the super ego, which is, one's understanding one's cash, societal rules, almost. So what an anorexic is doing with the brain is attempting to form a stable self out of the expectations of others, if that makes sense. So what I have, I guess, thing is an extremely personal relationship with the desire to make myself a good person through not eating any food. And that was, that was pretty much literally what a lot of my life was like. And I think another another really, really important part of this is that part of it is also about reducing your body in the world. And I don't just mean that, like the coming center, I mean, like being GIFs. And essentially, what you're trying to do is produce a body that isn't really media isn't really a body, so it can't be remarked upon it can be hailed. Particularly I know, for me, this is really strongly related to gender. And it was also strongly related to violence and PTSD. And the two, the two things are related. That's really common. And it was actually through talking to some of the people who organized this festival, quite wonderful can see you're here tonight, I did a little reading about it afterwards, as well as that I'm incidences of eating disorders, and quite often anorexia really, really high among the trans community. And this way, we spent quite a lot about the fact that people whose bodies position is critical, by society at large. This method of attempting to producers of this good through this kind of control is one of the one of the approaches that people use. And but that is so previously profoundly horribly ironic about this is that I remember at the point in which, you know, I'm obviously looking for a lie these days. [00:45:04] But when I was considerably sucka, and seven away, which allowed me to witness a model [00:45:13] that should tell you something, and they all suck, so Photoshop to me, and I think it's probably worth saving. Not only did they Photoshop me and make me a five hours, but I was required to stand like this. United sir, call it burning and brimstone roll up. And I remember during that time, people would complement me profoundly, they would say, we look so good, how do you stay so thin. And sometimes when I was struggling, I would just tell them that I literally stopped myself. I mean, it requires hard work, but it was cool diligence and hard work. That's literally what I was doing. But the reason I point this out is because this week, as we've been talking about the ways in which people's bodies maligned and it's not healthy, by reasons class, by reason of disability, by reasons of rice, what was the situation here is that I was doing the right work to be referred to as a healthy body, but I was profoundly unhealthy. So instead of a situation with someone, you know, a person would look at me not eating at a dinner and think, gosh, that's terrible that a person is eating the other dinner. Instead, it would be a compliment that become well done, how good you are to not eat. And the terrible thing about this ecosystem, that's my rhetoric for reading, I'm already thinking, gosh, what a good piece. And I am. So good, you know, and then people will tell you that you're good. So I want to I want to say sort of refer back to Adam Gracie pointed this out at the accelerating board a big city, I think I really, really noticed that myself, because from my particular position, because I've had to think so hot about recovery, which, for a long time actually meant that I couldn't hang out with women. I love women, I have many great women friends and some other relationships with women. But one of the sort of ingrained cultural things that women have a list of TV moms, all that sort of stuff, is that you? You know, please, please, everybody, please each other's bodies, you say I shouldn't eat food on someone, someone's looking so passionate and so bad, and you're not fat, I'm fat and forever. And so actually have not seen women fighters, I had to not have any women friends until I gradually meet radical women. Okay, hang out, it's good. Um, but from from this position of having to do this recovery, the logic that is used in news reports on, you know, the supposedly recently epidemic on the language that season advertising for products, extensively about house is eating disorder budget, I recognize, I know it intimately, I know exactly what it is doing every time next and that discussion that Ritter good health comes up. [00:47:53] It is performing the same kind of regulatory work, I'm just I'm trying to think how to. [00:48:01] But from the moon as before, I think you guys might already know what I mean. You know, the medical establishment has only one way of recognizing and responding to anorexia, and that is on the basis of body weight. I think, um, you know, it's probably clear to you from the incredibly awkward manner that I'm in which I'm talking that it's not, you know, that the body weight is really kind of a side of feet of the center, it's actually happening. And it's, it hands a lot of people that it's ripped that way and the sensation, she's been medical hospital, and when they finish different the way up to a certain point, and she's immediately seen how the way, right? No treatment for the actual problem, just just just enough to get her body to function where her heart won't stop. And there's and there's another side to this as well, in the sense that not only some people get into this airplane, in fact, people with anorexia, but because the only way to medical establishment hints for registering and registering the disease and the size of your body, it means that there are a whole bunches of the population that don't even receive treatment for it. It says even understood as it is. [00:49:09] So I would say [00:49:11] I'm [00:49:13] personally invested in building a culture with it, it's not quite the case. I think it's a really important thing to do. But I also think it is related to capitalism as well. Receiving praise for enacting a mental illness is not just about the standards that are put on women and women's bodies. It's also about capitalism. [00:49:35] In the sense that [00:49:38] there is a certain amount of consumption that's associated with not consumption as well. To [00:49:48] health as an industry, I'm going to put it that way. [00:49:51] It's really sorry, [00:49:53] I'm sorry, said health industrial complex [00:49:55] wasn't just this one, right? [00:49:57] Health industrial complex, I think it's really profound. When I started to notice as well, particularly about capitalism, when I when I second game group, I started to realize that, you know, the section was not a great way to live. I realized that capitalism is a machinery actually has very little interest in living well, not well, happy or not happy. If I feel bad about myself, then I'm inclined to buy things to make me feel better. And it will profit from me either way. It's not concerned. It's an unconscious machine and never go. And it's a French pair of French philosophers who are incorrect funding from children using credit Scutari. They talk about capitalism is a war machine. And what they mean is it's a it's a repeating piece of algorithmic logic. It's it's a binary piece of logic that can recognize only things that are useful to it, and cleave things that are useful from those that are not and that's the only judgment it makes. I talked about this in relation to war, pointing out that when people go to war, they're not necessarily going to subject people to kill people. They going for resources, they're going for Watkins. Everything else is collateral damage, because the war machine can only recognize the resources that it wants capitalism thing. What I found uncomfortably profound when I was reading this piece of philosophy is that that's that's what anorexia is as well. It's a woman saying [00:51:21] it's building an acre [00:51:23] out of an unsustainable and conflict formation. And it isn't actually trying to kill you but it but it will. We have the same problem with capitalism. If we read our we don't respond to it. It will tell us that profoundly [00:51:39] depressing. [00:51:58] Okay, um, I'm going to stay Is that ok? You can hear me right. I'm loud. Can we dim our Hall see perfection all around with the demeanor the life and I'm like, super excited to be here today. I'm also really nervous as Robin is always nervous before I saw him in front of a crowd. But I will try to. [00:52:18] Yeah, okay. And my name is cap, Jose, and I was very excited to get an invitation to come and speak as part of this amazing events. Thank you so much to the organizer for putting this together. This is just been incredible. I'm especially excited about the gig tonight. I don't know what that means when I'm super excited. So I'm a transplant The X Factor, you can hear my voice. I'm here from the United States about six years ago. I Love New Zealand. I'm on faculty at NASA University and Palmerston North. I love Thompson north, I love Massey, I'm even willing to forgive Steve Martin for driving around a little car, and I'm gonna get rid of that little thing in the middle life. I'm a fat study scholar, [00:53:02] which means that I do. [00:53:12] Okay, there we go. [00:53:13] Yeah. Right. And I'm a Fast Eddie scholar. And so most of my research is about kind of looking at issues around identity embodiment, kind of critiquing the larger overall narrative about fatness, most of my stuff looks at identity, but I am quite interested in health and well being. And actually, I think that is really a term that often used in my work that I look at the impact of spoiled identities, and the impact that that has on people's health and well being. Last year, I organized a fat studies conference that took place here in Wellington, and actually several people who were at that conference and presented this room today. And that just makes my heart all flutter of like, just to see people again, it was amazing today's it got a lot of media attention. And of course, the media times when was not academics, host fact studies, you know, conference, it was, you know, fact, that pride rate in Wellington was what have actually been really awesome and organized. It was just very different. And I actually kind of felt bad for the few media personalities who actually came to the conference, because I think they thought they were coming to something with like five people sitting in a circle eat donuts, like champion. [00:54:22] Instead, you got to sit there while academic stood up and read. They're very scholarly, theoretical, methodological kind of work. So probably a bit not what they're expecting. [00:54:30] And [00:54:32] I'm also a fan activist, [00:54:34] which I [00:54:36] simply put, I suggest, I try to argue the fact that fat people deserve the same rights and dignity as non fat people, which doesn't actually sound crazy to me. And people are actually willing to go along with that first statement. So you start unpacking what that actually means. And then they're very quick to you know, you know, kind of back away your all sorts of things about, you know, what about the children? What about your health and a lot of the things that we've talked about already today on this panel in terms of morality, and how status intersects quite nicely with issues of class and race and gender and all of those kinds of things. And I'm as an activist, and a fascinating scholar, largely, in part because I am a fat woman. Now oftentimes, when people hear me call myself fat, they panic. And in fact, I've kind of grown up my entire life with people around me when I say that word. [00:55:22] Which is ridiculous because I am and [00:55:27] I think what they often me when they say that, to me, is they're trying to reassure me that I'm not the negative things they associate with that word. And they don't think of me as an attractive or stupid or lazy or inactive or you know, any of those kinds of things. And that in itself is an interesting way to start unpacking those assumptions that people have with people in terms of what they need or you know, when you hear women and we talked about like fat talk and dies off when you hear especially a woman say something like I feel fat today, and he will find us and and feeling I would suggest it's not in fact, an emotional state of being. So what exactly like that me for today, though, and I the topic, fatness bodies, food, all those kinds of things. And I'm sorry with that woman, and I'm living in a culture that is all about what I like to call the apocalypse. And we heard, you know, the obesity epidemic and quotes, we've got not quite a few days, but quite a few times already today. And we very much live in that culture. So there's a lot of discourse around the obesity epidemic, and how we're getting fatter and how we're all going to die. And oh, my God will think the children. And it's a really interesting kind of culture to live in, in the sense that a lot of governments and the Labour government was much worse about this, and the National has been, but in my country where I come from the United States, we have programs that are engaged in programs and social eugenics, they want to get rid of obesity, they want to get rid of people, they want to get rid of me, I'm not really okay with my government actively trying to get rid of me, I could come on awesome. I'd like to stick around. But you know, that's kind of the world that we live in. And of course, there are so many different reasons that people give for why we're concerned about the upcoming apocalypse. And everything that's on that slide probably won't shock you the terrorism, one might have a DC articles where they link up the obesity epidemic to increase in terrorism. not even kidding, global warming, global warming up there, and you know, health care costs and start marketing again, you will think that the children are poor children. [00:57:23] But for today, what I thought I'd try to focus it on because I appreciate that, you know, 10 minutes is a lot of time is the issue. Right, and specifically, this idea that people eating food, and I mean, I'll be the first one to say you guys, I can't go a day without eating food. [00:57:42] Food is food. And and if you come online, and you kind of look [00:57:47] around saw people in food, you get a lot of really similar kind of this idea of like, Well, you know, fat people are fat because they eat too much, right? We all know that, right? We know that being fat is unhealthy. And we know their facts they eat us, even though the science behind don't actually support this is we have them. And so it's this idea that most people have the fat people are fat, because they eat too much. And then it also starts to become this concern that like fat people are going to eat all the food. And I've had people have no control over themselves, of course at all. And definitely no control over how much they eat or what they eat or where they eat, or why they were just always in it all the time. And you you start to see this narrative within the obesity epidemic framework that is producing this idea that around food security, right and about being concerned about, you know, as populations grow, and oh, my goodness, we're getting fatter, to be more families. And so the, you know, the food. And this was a quote from a professor in London, who it's an article that he wrote [00:58:49] by 2015 people, and I think he actually used the term obese people, and I just can't handle the words. [00:58:56] Feed 1 billion others. [00:59:03] I mean, and this is, this is his kind of scholarship, like this is what he's currently doing and extrapolating, you know, these kinds of studies to say, to hype up this concern about like food insecurity in our in our world, and specifically around like fat people, and how much fat people are eating. And so there's a lot of different ways that within ODCF, and discuss people are trying to deal with fat people eating. And so this is an example of sexually from the state of Mississippi. So back in my home country, and few years ago, their state house representatives actually tried to make it illegal for faculty down restaurants. And because they thought, Oh, you know, this is a way to curb the obesity epidemic and say that fat people can't like go out and eat restaurants. And I think they tried to get fast food in there as well. And this bill didn't pass, as I'm sure most of you were the food industry lobby is a huge lobby. And they would never actually let anything get through. I'm surprised they let Bloomberg down on the streets get through. But this was one way of dealing with it. And of course, technology gives us all kinds of ways. So for those of you who aren't familiar with the 85 app, allow me to horrify you. So this is an app that you can get for your smartphone. And every time you take a bite of food, you check in with this app. And basically, this woman developed this out because she believes that eight bytes of food a day is what you should be aiming for. And it's not about the kinds of food that you're eating, or whatever, when you're eating. For her thing. It's right 80 bucks a day is what we should all be aiming for. And so this can cover app help you keep track of forgiving and light, you know, if you're eating a little bit too much, then you know, a day, which is just awesome. So [01:00:48] this is the year. [01:00:50] So these are the kinds of approaches that we're seeing to dealing with the fat people who need to eat all the food from one kind of angle, I thought I would share with you the opposite angle or another angle. And that would be working dad, my fat activists around the world to kind of combat that. And, and one of them is through engaging, of course, a lot of them are through engaging with social media. So the grocery everything. This is a fat woman who has a blog, and it's entirely dedicated to what she eats. And she talks about the reason that she started it was because she is a fat person. And one of the things that is often denied for people is not just the ability to eat, but specifically the ability to enjoy what you're eating, and the ability to enjoy food to like food, you know, you can say that one aspect of privilege is being able to be a foodie. Right? So if 10 people are foodies, that's fine, you know, they can talk about food, and that can be their hobby, that person is like you. And of course, another thing that she talks about, and my friend Jenny Lee, and Australia has talked about this, and some of her publications as well, is like that the act of ordering salad as a fat person, like means something specific and a cultural means. So you know, proper source salad, oh, good for you, you know, like, Oh, you know, you must be on a diet or you must be [01:02:05] good audience. [01:02:07] It's like, you know, sometimes I just feel like a fucking salad and [01:02:12] sorry. [01:02:19] And so it's this idea that there's there's so much cultural and symbolic meaning around around people and around me. [01:02:25] And [01:02:26] my friend Jen Lego, who's also in the States, she actually has this great Tumblr, and you can't see the picture very well. But she started a Tumblr called, but what about your health? And she did that because she's a fat activists and she gets so much pushback from people that you know, no matter what she's saying whether or not [01:02:43] it's the fact people should have the same [01:02:44] rights and dignity. And you know, questioning the science around size of health, and talking about the kinds of things that the panels been talking about. She almost always gets at least 10 people that are printing your emails for you? [01:02:57] Aren't you worried about your health? So she started a Tumblr, but what about your health and it's only pictures of her eating food. [01:03:05] Or videos using pictures or video of her eating foods like fat people are definitely not supposed to eat, definitely not supposed to enjoy. [01:03:12] And what she does now, because she gets so many people sending her messages anonymous. And on the teller side, if she takes what they said. So this was someone who said, Have you had a stroke yet, and he can't see her very well, the video underneath that is her eating a McDonald's pie. And that's the whole Tumblr is her posting the email that she gets her responses her eating a piece of [01:03:32] cake, or like pizza, or like a turn back in or whatever. [01:03:39] And it's, it's these small kind of acts of resistance of non compliance, that can really not necessarily change the conversation, but at least participate in that narrative and maybe kind of force it to be something a little different. It could be it could be argued that a fat person eating is an act of resistance, especially in fat person eating a public, right a fat person eating unabashedly and unashamedly in public, in the same way, as many other kinds of marginalized groups participate in activities that they're not supposed to do or that they're supposed to be ashamed of, or there should only happen behind closed doors. And so that's what I wanted to share today was just kind of talk a bit about fat people and food and how people eating and one perspective from the obesity epidemic discourse about how we deal with fat people eating and then the ways that a lot of fat people around the world are kind of pushing back and saying, Yeah, and I'm not saying that. So. [01:04:51] Would you like to [01:04:52] have a discussion between yourselves? Is there any sort of parallels? Or [01:04:58] should we throw open the [01:05:01] think open to questions? [01:05:03] Yeah, pick up a question. [01:05:05] I'm also [01:05:09] thank you so much, and thanks for sharing so [01:05:11] much. [01:05:13] stuff. [01:05:15] It makes it [01:05:19] so [01:05:21] right, as a visitor to me, because I'm [01:05:24] very new here. And as a longtime ally, fat people and disabled people, [01:05:30] and in gender issues as well. And [01:05:33] I was wondering if you [01:05:35] had kind of practical steps, you mentioned the major presentations [01:05:40] of different types of people and how they negatively? Are there practical steps that the Allies can take to be better? [01:05:53] I've got some thoughts that they're not well, it's sort of taking the question to put direction? I'm, I'm kind of not sure. Well, I had different thoughts about language, things, but I'm not sure. Like you're thinking about the language of allies is that I think one of the things is that, you know, everybody in this room is dealing with the fact that society fucking hates your body. You know, like, it's not, it's, you know, and obviously, people experience it in really different ways. But I think that something like where I'm more interested in building up commonality, then, like, the fact that you express the differences. So I mean, so I think there's that, I think that it's important to acknowledge that. That it's not, it's not an unusual experience, the kind of wave of hatred that people have talked about in different ways today, is actually, I mean, is a function of least being [01:07:00] at least being a woman, or, [01:07:03] you know, gender non conforming, and a lot of other people, you know, are just a little over the people as well. And, and I guess, yeah, I guess the other thing, I would just say, which is kind of what Robin was saying before, is this idea of policing. And one of the [01:07:29] week [01:07:31] was kind of about liberation, and the idea of that liberation, and that you can't be, you can't be passive and liberation practice, if you're also pleased the impression that the starting point that we all have to have is figuring out how to stop policing each other, while at the same time acknowledging that places a really common survival strategy of dealing with that, you know, of the world. thought that was a contradiction difficulty there. But I think that question about how you please people and how you say, should you eat that? And how you say, you know, you know, have you tried this new treatment or whatever? [01:08:17] Don't try that. [01:08:20] Side effects. And, you know, that kind of [01:08:23] stuff. That, yeah, so that was all that kind of pleasing thing. I would say that that is figuring out how to, like, kind of stop that policing without while acknowledging that often that placing does come from a place of real, of the fact that other people struggling with those same issues. And I think that that's where the contradiction of attention. And the difficulty is, [01:08:47] actually yeah, I mean, that's a it's a compassion and criticality and equal misery sort of thing. Because just as you're saying that anything, one of the biggest things that I've seen a lot more in radical communities, is that people police, people's internalized self floating when it comes to bodies now, I mean, God least you've managed to survive this long in this culture without hanging yourself. My head is up here. But a lot of us here, everyone has to see everyone has to struggle. And some of us are, you know, a really different relationships to our bodies now in the one we might have come into the world with, but yeah, I mean, I feel like that's a really important thing for people to do is not also, as well as not policing people's food choices, or activity choices or medications, which is also not police people self hatred, [01:09:36] natural to struggle in this season. [01:09:38] Well, and I mean, in some ways, it's, it's kind of the underpants rule. So if it's not your underpants, it's not your business, [01:09:45] grow and [01:09:47] try to live by that rule. And, and I think that, I think that kind of, quite often, it's not just even kind of that x, that obvious policing, but just kind of your own internal narrative about other people as well. When we talk about, like, in the fact community, we often talk about issues of like street harassment, and public harassment. And, you know, most people are quite horrified, you know, to hear stories that, you know, I'm walking down the street, and, you know, people move at me or, you know, whatever, call me names or whatnot, and they're really quite horrified because they would never in a million years do that. But, you know, then I tried to talk to him. And I said, Well, what about your internal monologue? Like, what about what you're not saying, you know, when you see a fat body, like, do you think, Oh, God, you know, she shouldn't be wearing that, or he shouldn't be eating that, or, you know, whatever it kind of is. And so in a lot of ways, not just that external of policing, which, of course, absolutely happens, but trying to be a bit more aware about your own internal kind of monologue that you have about other people's bodies, about other people's choices. And when it happens, because it happens to recognize it and will be like, right, where does that come from? How does that happen? How can I maybe think about this differently? And of course, I always get someone that says, Well, I can't control you know, what my instinctual thought is? And I'm like, Well, yeah, you kind of can, because you weren't born, hey, that people, like, you'll learn that from somewhere. So, you know, it's about Yeah, kind of engaging in that kind of self reflection as well. [01:11:07] He's seen some labor that comes with it, too. I think I mean, you know, it probably won't surprise you that in that own interests, it's a pretty shitty that, that people a lot of the time. And I remember once I started noticing that I hit that narrative. And it made sense to me to engage with a load of fake politics and look at what fed activists were saying about themselves, looking at the way that they were just showing fashion. And that I mean, you know, so this is a sort of a sensible amount of You do realize that you have those kind of narratives, and you're sort of obligated to not have the right [01:11:42] now, absolutely. Well, I'm trying to kind of embrace the idea that, you know, this isn't my own idea. And I can't remember the woman who came up with me, like, there's no one, there's no wrong way to have a body, you know, kind of thing. And, you know, if we want that to be true for ourselves, then we should then allow that for everyone else as well. And of course, it's, you know, difficult and tricky. [01:12:00] Yeah, it is. But, yeah, yeah, I agree. I just [01:12:05] the other thing, I [01:12:08] think it's really important. I, you know, I think that it's really important to understand that you've done all anyone else to feel a certain way about your bloody, you know, that [01:12:20] it's actually an impossible task to set people to deal with this way and patriot and feel okay with yourself. That's, that's, that's, you know, that's, I mean, you can, there are ways you can feel better about yourself miserable, really cold and really important. I really, we are really deeply personal. But it doesn't, it doesn't help set up this other standard about how you feel about yourself, when you're dealing with this, this tidal wave of, of, of, of hatred, and it does just, it can just become this other pressure. I, I feel, I feel very strongly because for lots of reasons, but one was because like, in my kind of mid 20s, I was part of a previous version of the sex scene. And I felt like there was all this space where it was okay to say that you hate your body, it was really okay to talk about health 90, you know, constantly, you know, and so, and that, that drove me sick underground and made it more made it harder, more pervasive. And so I think it's really important to find people who can say, you know, actually don't feel okay, you know, actually, it's really shit. Actually, it's really hard. You know, it is hard. It's not hard, because, you know, you haven't done a good job of being a feminist or whatever, it's hard, because it's a really hard, and, you know, like, since against my early 20s, I've been like, [01:13:44] it doesn't help understanding analyze the world doesn't necessarily help you feel better. [01:13:48] And, and, [01:13:51] and that's okay. You know, I, I guess gonna quote because [01:13:56] it's inevitable. [01:13:59] long enough, I will put CalFresh. But this one of my favorite pieces of fearless writing is also the most of its misrepresented, which is the phrase the personal is political, which is why do you meant to say that the one word he understood that the way you live your life is political. It's not how it was originally called, it was called calculation 1968. And she said, that there is no point the point she was making is that these groups of women got together and talked about problems in their personal lives with, you know, usually with husbands and not doing the dishes and sexual abuse and all this kind of stuff. And they're like, are, these are personal problems, these aren't things that are wrong with us. These are political problems. And she said, and there are no personal solutions to these political problems. At this time, there are no personal solutions to the fact that we hate our bodies, they're just ways through the Maya, and that the point the political points has to be collectively trying to fight for a different world and a different idea of bodies, while at the same time honoring the we're going to have really different ways of dealing with what we have to deal with that. [01:15:09] Question that relates to say, [01:15:15] I can go for days when only 10 anyone will say to me about, [01:15:19] she's cute. She's really kid, [01:15:22] you know, and they talk about her body, look how she, she's, oh, she's very age, which isn't a good way to go. And I'm kind of really hot doing that, and makes me think about myself as well. So pretty much no one said anything about my book. [01:15:38] Because I'm just [01:15:43] let's just kind of nice sometimes. [01:15:45] But kind of relating to what you're saying, and maybe the underpants issue and stuff. We all know it really should be the GOP, someone say you're fat and really ugly. But is it also kind of shitty to get up? Someone's you're really hot? You know? Like, do we just not talk about bodies? Is that the answer? Just ignore the fact that that person has a body because to me, that sounds bad as well. Like, I want to be recognized that I take up space and that other person [01:16:12] was my close friends. I'll say how you feel beautiful today. [01:16:17] I feel kind of shitty like oh, my maybe like you say [01:16:23] you're looking for because you bought a ticket dress really nicely, or like, a big waiting for me to have some you just spit on yourself in your regular job? Isn't [01:16:33] that beautiful? You know, like, do we just not talk about buddies? That was what I'm asking you for the answer. But what do you what do you recommend my hobby? We just pretend that the paper we made? [01:16:46] I think there's I think there's a space where you're where you can be positive, but without being objective? Fine. Yeah. [01:16:55] Yeah. So I mean, and I do, I think it can be a difficult place to find, I think that they're not talking about bodies or, you know, not kind of engaging with people on that kind of level. I mean, first of all, would be really weird in our current culture, because we live in a culture where we're always judging and commenting on people's bodies. And so it'd be quite odd. We didn't kind of engage in that. But I think there's a way to find spaces where it's, you know, positive to provide, you know, kind of positive, you know, positive things to say that you want to say, because you're like, Oh, I really like your dress today, or Oh, I really like those shoes or, or whatever. And so I think that their spaces to do that without in a way being objectified, which of course is is problematic, or what I would see is problematic. And, you know, and as far as the negative? I mean, again, you know, underpants, and I think my mom, I was Catholic as well. And, you know, if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything, you know, I've got that kind of Yeah, often running through my mind, but [01:17:53] it's a good way to make women not experiencing good, pretty [01:17:56] much. Yeah, heading right, [01:17:58] actually. I mean, I think this is actually one of the things about this, particularly is that it just is difficult. And that's the truth. I mean, social justice has a terrible tendency to try and presume universal rules. If we could just objectively understand the right objective ways to treat each other on various axes of privilege to depression at all time, we wouldn't have any more problems. But but the social part is important as well. So this the fact that it's difficult, because down to the fact that it requires things like taking a level of that person's personality, how you think that they're going to react to a compliment, or something like that. You know, what the social spaces you know, whether it's a professional spice, all that sort of stuff. Sorry, I think it's hard to prescribe wrote live here. Yeah, you're right. It's tricky. It's tricky, Jeff. And it is it is tricky stuff. And that's the answer to it. It's tricky stuff. Yeah. [01:18:53] Didn't you? But I wanted to hear more about your thoughts and see what I think it came up twice. Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was about health and capitalism. And on one hand, you know, society wants everyone to be perceived as able bodied and healthy, so that we can be workers and contribute to the economy and all that kind of stuff. And then on the other hand, there's a huge amount of profit to be made from people feeling unhappy about themselves. And I was just wondering if you could comment on the relation between those three things, because I see them as slightly contradictory. [01:19:32] Let's, okay, I'm just thinking about this. So sorry, I feel like I'm talking a lot of [01:19:38] fear. I feel like the two things are really related, right? Because that the issue, I think, actually is that the sitter presentation of happiness and health is one that is presumed upon how to put this so much to sort of really profound binary logic, a human's life, a person's life, you know, you're going to have sadness, and happiness, and moments of joy and moments of anger, and all these sorts of things. But this sort of capital of sale is the idea that there can be one moment, they can be one lifestyle choice that will solve everything, if you understand so just kind of endlessly. It's kind of endlessly searching for complete resolution, and so on. While I sorry, I think I see there's two things, it's the same thing, almost, I'm not sharing my thing. So I think [01:20:24] it's what the dominoes are efforts through you, you ship this effort of somebody who is foot and has a better body, and you at the same time is showing them that say, hey, this magical device will instantly transform that body into this muscly replacing, you know, so it's like, using one to sell the other and you can't have the, the after without before and vice versa. That's it's a great way of getting money for something that doesn't actually work. [01:20:56] But it's about feeding on people's anxieties in order to sell them things. And, you know, the idea is that we have capitalism absolutely relies upon both, you know, kind of, quote, unquote, able bodied workers. But also, of course, the unwashed work that people especially women tend to do in the home for free. And but in order to get you to those points, they want to sell you pretty much everything they can sell you kind of along the way. And and the best products are the ones that don't ever actually work, but the blame falls on the consumer. So I mean, diets are the best example of that, in the sense of the miracle evidence that we have about weight loss is that 95% of people are unable to maintain what they call meaningful, meaning 10 kilos or more permanently meeting over five longer than five years. And but at any given time, I mean, millions of people are dying, it's a $60 billion a year industry in the States alone, I think is larger than the GDP of New Zealand actually. And but it's the perfect product, because it doesn't work. But when it fails, people assume it's done. Well, I didn't do it right, or I don't have any willpower, oh, this next time, it'll work for me. Whereas if you bought a document, 95% of the vacuums that you bought, didn't buy only five, you know, if it never works, you wouldn't go I just don't know how to vacuum, you know, you'd be like, this is a piece of shit product and you stop buying it. And serving capitalism relies on that anxiety that we have, whether it's about our bodies, or our ability, or our intellect, or, you know, whether or not we've reached like the gold standard, or the endgame for our life, in order to Yeah, continue to sell this crap, including health, right? So we could talk about it, we didn't wait. And Esther actually touched on it a bit. And so did grace. Like, what is how, how does it get defined? Who gets to define it? Who's allowed to have it? So both health as a verb, but also as a noun? And that's something that I'm working on with a colleague in Australia is as fat women, are we ever allowed to have health, like, regardless of what behaviors we engage in, regardless of what like medical tests would say, simply by having BMI is over a certain thing is held some we are ever allowed to have. And what does that mean? [01:23:03] I think it's also really important to remember that kind of in terms of like, capitalism's ability to kind of sell us stuff and make us feel bad is that no one's okay, you know, nobody's bodies, okay. And even if you, even if you have somebody who, you know, meets all these standards, and they have to be vigilant because the body is decaying, and like if they don't start putting all this and work into the body, and if they don't, kind of kind of keep even, you know, even further to learn and keep trying and keep in control and all that kind of stuff thing. You know, it's not just that the body is never good enough to be right, but they're going to keep on getting worse, you know, so, I think I think that capitalism is great. But you know, wanting healthy kind of people to like function in society, but also be like every Saturday, you guys another okay. Yeah, yeah. [01:24:00] Right at time, but [01:24:01] I wanted to ask you one more question just to round off. And I really love the work of [01:24:05] Dr. Charlotte PN tracing for activism through the ages in history, the history of activism and trends and activism. And also VYF more junior in the States about disability and bodies and, and here are your heroes. Oh, [01:24:40] wow. [01:24:47] Some today? [01:24:50] Yeah, I was [01:24:52] kind of gonna say something similar, like, um, is true and grace for sure. Lucy, you who I think she stepped out, but you will get to hear her talk mixed. And also Anna. Like, I don't know, I think with activism, most of my ideas haven't been from like, [01:25:12] reading books or anything like academic or formal as it has been talking with other people with similar experiences with different experiences, but like being able to connect the dots, just like what Chris was saying. And you know, Carol Hanisch and feminists in the 70s were doing with consciousness, the guys in groups, I think, you know, you have set with like, the people that you know, when looking at similar experiences. [01:25:40] I just want to also as well. And [01:25:44] I want to give a shout out just about a duly human intelligence series huge, which is really amazing. And if you want some food for yourself, it's well worth watching. And it's a miracle that obsessed with lots of TV [01:26:08] is an example of [01:26:13] every aspect of the fact of nature. I could have actually [01:26:18] stopped. I just want to say like, yeah, I think that there are people who do amazing things and places they wouldn't necessarily expect them and Savannah, Dooley, I think should I think you should watch it. I think it's amazing. [01:26:30] broken and cacti [01:26:34] Jr. [01:26:36] Some weird thing to say. But I mean, [01:26:40] in terms of that discussion of the need for work on the social part of social justice, I think that it's necessary, or it was for me, I guess when I read his books to understand adopting a position that was equal Mrs. criticality, I should [01:26:58] say, sorry, that's not a very good one. [01:27:03] Um, [01:27:03] yeah, I mean, I think for me, if I didn't single two people out one would be Samantha Murray, and is a fascinating scholar over in Australia. And she's done a lot of really cool stuff I'm including talking about grace talked about earlier in terms of her own ambiguity about you know, being a fat woman who is quite happy with yourself some of the time and all the time and the guilt that she feels when she's having like a bad day about her body because she feels like people turn to her as an inspiration and so if she ever allowed to not be that happy, fat person and and then I'm someone local Emery to tell is that she does a really interesting work around kind of conceptualization of health and health ism and the sociology of diagnosis and her work just amazes me. [01:27:49] Thank you so much, [01:28:00] America.

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