Session 2 - C.L.I.T Fest Wellington 2013

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by clip feast in association with pride nz.com [00:00:08] Hey everyone, I'm HI [00:00:09] work is community lawyer community law and I specialize in employment law, know a little bit about contract law, privacy and human rights. [00:00:23] Hey, my name is Aisha and I am an independent six, okay here in Wellington. And I also work for union and two part time activity stuff. Yep, that's me. [00:00:36] I'm cured a token tour. My name is Catherine Healy. And my role is to coordinate the prostitutes collective, which came of age last year, we turned 25. And also, it's 10 years since we decriminalized six weeks. So it's a real honor to be here with you. Thank you. [00:01:05] Hi, everybody. My name is Chanel and I'm the transgender community liaison for the [00:01:13] for the NC PC. I'm also an outreach work and I liaison with transgender sex workers that are working in the in the industry, not just on the street, but privately as well. So [00:01:31] yeah, and emerged and also derivative work in the PC and have worked on the six industry on for about four years. And so Catherine's gonna tell us a little bit or we're all gonna jump. And we're going to talk about about the history of six women's rights. And [00:01:51] I guess, thank you, the history [00:01:55] acknowledge all the people who have worked in the 600 Australian. Going back in time, I was driving to work the other day, and I was listening to an interview on national radio. And there was a discussion about someone called I think, Eliza King, I hadn't googled here, that apparently, she was around in the 1860s. And Tara lucky. And she went back to the UK and advocated for six workers and some capacity over this has really interested to hear that. So if anyone sitting here with the icon on, you could have Google your name, probably, and they might be a bit of information. But go, you know, we know going back in time net, six work was alive and well. And arterial way before we was sitting in our massage parlor, and the 1980s, and working on the street, and came up with the idea to form ourselves into a collective, we came together. And quite interesting times, really, we heard HIV on the horizon. And we were quite concerned about the nature of HIV and the perception that the clients would have. And ultimately, we were concerned about the data that would make in our pockets. So we felt that we had to organize as a kind of means to self, you know, preserve, but also to market, who we were, and to try and combat all those negative perceptions that people have. And we have fair enough to say we were bloody theater, because, you know, everyone speaks for six workers and speaks about them. And everyone has an opinion. And it's quite rare to hear what it was back then from six speakers. In fact, you know, there was a the feature in the evening post at the time, and that was a Poland get paid. A criminologist, when we later bonded with Jane Jordan, was commentating, and the police were commentating and talking about prostitutes, and prostitutes there, and you know, it was all in the frame of crime. So, and the ACS, we had a lot to moan about, we had a lot to dream about. And, you know, we really didn't think we'd get anything off the ground, you would probably relate to that, you know, when you have these ideas and you drinking and smoking, you thinking, I saw, yeah, we need to do a union, we need to do something, you know, etc. Yeah. Let's meet later. And so very much we came out of a kind of informal way of connecting with each other. I don't remember anyone really taking minutes, actually. And to this day, I don't have you seen us take minutes. You know, we meet on the beaches, and we meet on the pubs and we need people's plates. And we just, you know, did a lot of talking and we brought our mates on board, you know, that we were quite isolated and our massage parlors at the time. And for those of you who are far too young to know, massage parlors housed most of the sex workers, and the other part of the six figure population was working on the street. And if you've got a conviction, related to prostitution, you were kicked out of your massage parlor. And, and or, if you were working on the street, you could be arrested. And it was quite a common thing. Most of us knew someone who had been arrested and taken to court as a registered [00:06:00] to remember the bed [00:06:03] to the children. [00:06:06] Yeah, well, when I was a six week on the street, we they had a lot of undercover operations, where they would go out in seen on camera policemen out and what they actually called your training run. That's what they called it. So they've seen undercover this out, and I was just a complete waste of time they pick us up and they would take us behind a building and put us in a [00:06:38] police wagon, take us to the police station process us. [00:06:43] And then we'll go to court and get $100 fine, and then we'll be back out on the street again. And but we knew that it was that it was risky. It was a it was risky being out there. But you know, it was it was just a way for us because the nice guys, it was hard for training skills to find employment, which is why a lot of them went on to the straight so yeah, it's an interesting, it was an interesting lifestyle. [00:07:19] That's Yeah, [00:07:22] just with all the with all the with all the the race with the place and getting harassed by the place getting searched, getting your bag, sometimes depending on what city you were in, the police stopped Judah question and into a corner and stripped you of your clothes. That was in the biggest city, Auckland. Wellington was a little bit about. Yeah, those were, those were quite well, not difficult days. But it was a whole different era. [00:07:57] So we, when we came together formulae and an informal way, we were clear that we want to all people who are sex workers, and some of the groups around the world, our contemporaries, for instance, had been quite gender focused and just seek for women and, but a New Zealand and also in Australia, similar groups were coming out at the time and foreman. And we said that we were clear that we wanted me in woman transgender, and that we would be together. And that's that's the way we are today. 25 years on, but I take my head off to in terms of history, and the new wave of history, really the French, and 1975 locked themselves in a church, and, you know, to protest about the treatment of the police. And then the locked themselves in a church as well. And so much James wrote a seminal piece, prostitution and the house of the Lord, if you go Google Summer, James, she's very much still at it. She's now in her 80s. And it was really, really interesting for us, because this sounded so exotic and so far off. And we thought, well, I wonder if we can do this under the law, to law, you know, get our own organization movement going back, you know, rolling forward a few decades now, these international organizations look to us for leadership in terms of what we have achieved around the human rights legislation that is in place today, for sex workers. 10 years ago, we had laws against practically everything, if you're a sex worker, don't sneeze, because that might be be missing to pursue soliciting, you know, it was like soliciting was a thing of offering yourself, of prostitution in a public place, it was very hard to be a sex worker, and go about your business. For instance, a room and a massage parlor was considered a public place. So as Chanel described on the streets, you know, excuse me, and to the palace, you know, the police would come and they pretend to be undercover pretend to be clients and try and go about and trapping us. And, you know, occasionally they managed to intimidate us as well. And that, you know, it's very difficult. So when the law changed 10 years ago to that allowed us to work in a variety of different ways, which is absolutely amazing. For many, many, many, six weeks around the world, they cannot believe that we had street basics work criminalized in New Zealand. Usually when laws are put in place, they allow for brothels, legal brothels, and there's usually a very controlled kind of environment where sex workers are managed, because really, the children out there they need management, before they ultimately naughty. If we let them manage themselves, that'd be out of control. But in New Zealand, we have the private sector. And I think that's really brilliant to know that 40% of six workers manage their own six week and that's a vastly different statistic to what was around in my day, we're probably about I don't know about 5%, were able to manage their own six week we're allowed to, and it was the street basics workers. So I should hand over to you. [00:12:01] So I have only been a six speaker since prostitution has been decriminalized. So I can't talk about, you know, what to expect was like in the past. However, I can talk a little bit about my experiences, working both being managed in an escort agency, and working for myself. And the, you know, the pros that come from it's definitely the most autonomous working arrangement that I've ever had in terms of work that I've done. I've had the most autonomy over it. Yeah. [00:12:47] I was wondering what the kind of main differences like what what are the main differences that you've seen service, like, from before, institutionalise decriminalized to like not that it's not illegal? [00:13:05] Well, our relationship with the police between six weeks and places improved along if you're [00:13:14] on the straight line, before the law change, if you on the street and a lot of a lot of assaults and things like that went unreported, because the police wouldn't listen to us. And we didn't trust them. And and a few girls here resulted and they couldn't go anywhere. So but now, but now that that's, that's it's changed and [00:13:43] the place a much greener, much, much the communication between us we have [00:13:51] police liaison officers that with the opa VNZPC. Yeah. [00:13:58] And I think he can underestimate the power of the dynamic between six workers and the police. You know, I wouldn't say it's all hunky dory. But certainly, you know, to know that your next client isn't going to be an undercover police officer. As a pretty amazing thing. I mean, I'm not six or six weaker today. But, you know, I'm just often struck by how, you know that that must be to know, you know, that you're not about, you know, you're not going to be set up and worried and taken to court and outed and heavy name in the newspaper and salt rubbed into your wound Texas demand, but and then told that you still illegal? So, you know, it's a striking difference. Of course, you know, we have four more things, one of the things people are curious about is that relationship with IRD. course, we always had to paid, even before the law changed, there was an expectation that no matter how you enjoy income, you had to pay tax. And the day was actually quite productive and had developed spiritual resources for six workers, and once told me that they were a moral. So but also we have relationships with Well, you know, with all due respect, actually, just to be able to support now, okay, it's the Department of Labor. Yeah, yeah, mode is innovation and employment. That's right. And, you know, there's the, there's the theory that the future is probably most you can lift up the phone and a government official coming back to you. And that's a good thing to know, that, you know, there could be someone who would come in and sort you out, sort out the situation that you might find yourself on. And I don't wish to make light of that, except I know, it, sometimes it can be a bit frustrating for people because, you know, they have a problem and looking for an exploitative boss, for instance, and they'll have a cluster of different issues, you know, might be their crimes being committed, you know, it might be that the boss assigned to it up to we call fine, your bond you and while those practices have, and the main died away, and certain parts of the six industry, they are still being used by some operators. So, you know, we have a relationship with Modi. And, you know, if you're brothels code, you can blow the whistle and say that a Department of Labor and speaker might appear. Or if you're being made to work quite long hours, and [00:16:59] that can hoping for people and the independent [00:17:04] contracting relationship you might like to, [00:17:07] yeah, so [00:17:10] in terms of picking which ways to enforce your rights and issues, it's always going to be a bit of a difficult way to decide how to go about it. Because there are pros and cons. And you might have different rights, depending on your situation. So if you're working as an employee, which I understand is, most people's contracts a independent contractor. But whether or not you are is a legal question, and it's about how you're treated, not what it says on the contract. So it's very important to look at things like who's controlling the hours you're working, who's paying a tax, whether or not you're allowed to work for other people, whether or not to allow to work in your own interest who's providing equipment, this is sort of questions, you're asking to determine whether you're an employee or an independent contractor. Now, if you're an employee, then you can go through the Department of Labor, or the Employment Relations process, which is completely free. It usually starts with mediation, if you're going through that whole process, or you can just talk to nudity law or American, right you simulations. But in this mediation, which is free, and the Employment Relations society, which is set up, so you don't need a lawyer as well, so it's quite cheap process. And then on the other hand, if you're an independent contractor, the options available engineering Disputes Tribunal, or, again, independent negotiation. So if you're going through the Disputes Tribunal, that's also quite a simple process. But you can only go through it if you got your competing over a disputed amount in 13,000, or 20,000, where the agreement, and that's that cost some money to go through. So if you're disputing list 10,000, it costs about 40 bucks. But it goes up to about 150. If you're going up to that $15,000 mark. And that is a that is a process where low is a band, unless you're actually having a dispute with a lawyer. So I could go, but I couldn't represent. And what happens is, it's usually we would be disputing about contracts. So if there's a breach of a contract, in your independent contract, you're looking at, hey, you said you would advertise me, you said you'd book me clients and your receptionist is better, but you're not doing that. So that's where you go through that sort of dispute, and you can get the last income that you would have made if that fulfilled outside of the contract. Yeah, so those are the, if you're advocating for yourself, if you're talking to a lawyer, those are the avenues of enforcement are there also things like enforcing health and safety standards, health and safety inspectors and labor speakers for minimum rights, which is through Department of Labor, but I have found in my dealings with them, that it's not enough of them. [00:20:16] So it can be a bit difficult to get ahold of them. [00:20:21] I guess also, in terms of legalization, decriminalization, it's also just through with General, General societal attitudes, that basically, sex workers no longer have to take shit from, from the place from bad clients. And from, you know, people harassing us in general, because our work is no longer considered a crime. So at a very, you know, kind of general level. You know, we can report people who sexually violated us as a crime, we can report people who harass us on the telephone. Yeah, and just just things like that, that, you know, are really, really fundamental basic things, in order to, you know, just kind of protect, you know, the basic humanity of us in terms of our working conditions has, I think, really changed? What did it [00:21:21] it's fascinating, because I've dealt with the police now for quite a long time. And there's a whole generation who have come into policing since decriminalisation and their eyes, Papa, but, you know, they get us on a roll to talk about the bad old days and in particular, want to know which of the superiors caused us undercover clients to come into and trap us and it's, it's, it really is a heartfelt difference you sort of ever since that there has been a mood spin. But you know, equally, I think around six week around, fans can wax and wane and we know now, right now that we're fighting for the rights of street based sex workers, and I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but New Zealand First, gearing up to ride and what the controversy around six week on the street and snotty Lolo Taylor, who's an MP for New Zealand First was pushing a bill and the front of the Parliament. It's not a new, it's not on the ballot box that she's pushing a bill, which will outlaw street by six weeks into clients. There is another bill. That's right. And the Parliament at the moment that's been discussed. And that's about zoning six workers and clients and but here's a normal potential to actually impact on everyone really, who looks like they could be a sex worker, or looks like they could be a client and it gives the police quite a lot of power. Now the police, police police them a person is submission opposing this bill. They're not in favor of it. And so as on the surface of things if you're an unnecessary resident, and someone's you know, keeping you awake at night, you you could almost hear yourself saying oh for God's sakes Can she can work over there and not outside my window. six foot generally isn't noisy, it's generally a very quiet activity. Cars pulled up doors slam people shout out to each other sometimes they shared with us that street workers who bottles and things like that. Occasionally we have you know, a bit of the and to six weaker strife hitmen voices and burn the main it's a pretty quiet activity and then the main most people are quite well behaved people want to be kind of discreet. And but you know, it doesn't stop the feed, you know, the feed into the public perception. And so that the bill it does proposing signing his come out of labor. And the Auckland Council, in particular Monaco City Council, and then it morphed into Auckland Council, and was sponsored initially by Ross Robertson and is now being has been picked up by Sorry, I forget, actually, I caught a blank. But anyway, it's it's perfect its way right through the select committee who have had are all submissions and recent submissions. And so we're right in the moment now of having this, about to go back to Parliament. And we're really hoping that the select committee will come out and say, Look, there's no point and changing this legislation. Potentially, the legislation will result in fines of up to $2,000 to six workers and clients, if they found to be working outside of zines. So it'll get councils the power to demarcate zones and say, Look, you know, you can work over there or you can work there. Now, we know with Auckland Council, that Lin Brown has not been friendly toward six workers. And that when he was mayor of Monaco, he didn't allow for six workers to work from home. And while he you know, his counsel, and he as well voted for a bylaw that said you couldn't under hindered me from home that you had to work in a zone area [00:26:07] that was non residential, [00:26:09] hasn't been a little bit backwards intensive was that, you know, what are they trying to do? Because that's sort of like saying that you must work in a brothel, that's a managed properly calculate the SF [00:26:19] bridge, that's because six week was still perceived as children. And this is kind of paternalistic. You know, like the family and the brothel, operators spout that nonsense as well, like, you know, all the girls, you know, they're the only, you know, the only thing if he's changed. [00:26:41] America city bill, which is now the open bill was introduced as a what's called a local bill, which means that the local council or the like, ask the Member of Parliament to put it in because of a group of, of shopkeepers. So it's not labor policy. It's not national policy. It's not, it wasn't the f1 policy policy thing. It was a locally at George Hawkins sort of saying, Okay, you've come to me with this bill, I'll put it up. And that doesn't commit any employee to actually support it will ask him to sleep committee. And within Select Committee, there's a lot of opposition to it, not only in place with national risk, are actually really embarrassed by them to target dies. But they're aware that the shopkeepers are really stigmatized, and six week is taking the public campaign doing really nasty telling lies to the media, basically. So that it's something that there is an ongoing income. Now, considering because of the super busy taking over what was previously a medical bill, does the MP that asked to do that? And they can say no. [00:27:51] If it speaks, [00:27:53] like if it's you wanting your texts wiped out or something like that to make him but in general practice, a lot of don't say that they've got a choice about it. I mean, like the Green Party might be able to because it doesn't have it doesn't have any tricks to say that that's the thing. If you're an elite trick in then you're almost caught. You have to have legal reasons to say no. And I'm not saying that that MP wasn't stupid, what he was saying that it could have been any MP pushing this happens to be embarrassed by it. Because that's the process. And it's very popular with a certain part of the population. [00:28:33] BMT declined load. I mean, you know, could couldn't also, I don't [00:28:38] think the rooms in that particular area allow for him to do it because it was a valid legal issue. Yeah, just sort of say it was a bit it was an empty first in the labour national. The rooms are such that they have to take a counter, but green, I'm pretty sure what it is. Because the rules allow for different processes, but I'm just you know, so just sort of say, Okay, I did for another member of life. I don't like everything about it. But it's not like a policy to do that the same way. I know. It's not the policy of some other countries. [00:29:09] Just to balance the books here. It was a Labour MP. [00:29:14] And Tim burners, who would install works is very keen on supporting six figure rights. And he sponsored the private member's bill through for us which was supported across different passes by New Zealand foods to voted against at wholesale and united future I think from memory, actually, at the time, although Peter Donna's against the spill, which [00:29:45] was pretty Greece of [00:29:49] I'd like to ask us [00:29:50] one more question. And then maybe we could [00:29:53] see if anyone else has any questions. So [00:29:57] there is some generally six speakers Noxon, five roles, enforced sexual health verticals. [00:30:06] Any ideas about why? [00:30:14] Well, I can talk about why I personally am against enforced health checkups for for sex workers. And the first reason is because most sex workers are the most savvy people about sexual health you'll ever meet. We understand how to create by and large as a demographic, we understand how to correctly use condoms, which I don't think necessarily applies to everyone. We use dental dams, as a matter of course, and our work generally. Yeah, so I think the first thing is that sex workers tend to be pretty proactive about their own health, anyway, because it's just as unpleasant for six weeks sexually transmitted infection than it is for a client for anyone else to have a sexually transmitted infection. And I guess it's just a stigmatization that sex workers as a demographic, more likely to practice unsafe six, which isn't true. And the idea that we have no autonomy to choose, when we have medical procedures done to us, and you know, I, personally have sexual health checks every three months, but if there was a reason that I couldn't, because for psychological and mental health, prison will just a time and finance reason. I wouldn't want that to stop me from my ability to pay my rent for the next two weeks until I get that appointment, or whatever. And so that's why I think most six because I can still [00:31:55] post part of the difference between legalization and to criminalisation. These are complicated tunes, and they're quite different if you get into the drug to vote. I think they turn around. But the criminalization in terms of six week laws indicates that all laws that are out there for anyone on the week for supplier to six workers, so there are no you know, there's not a pure decriminalisation means they wouldn't be special law that's applied simply to six workers. So when we looked at the issue around mandatory testing, of course, like Peter says, we were absolutely opposed to that idea. Under legalized six industry in some places, Melbourne, for instance, and Australia, that's a legalized six industry, which has a fairly tightly controlled regime of kind of trade history, and six workers had to test, I think it's once a month, and really outrageous actually, that this kind of notion that beats deliver a clean cut of population of sex workers, whereas the clients, of course, compelled to, nor would we want them to be compelled. And, you know, part of the New Zealand rationale around public health is that the only thing that can make a difference is safe sex. And so we've put the emphasis on safe sex practices. We're not in favor, actually, there's a little bit analogous location that talks about sex workers and clients and brothel operators must take all reasonable steps to practice safe sex is a penalty attached to that now, that's a politician's handiwork. We weren't in favor of that at all. And because, you know, like, the idea is, if you don't have a few hundred thousand protected seats, you want to go to say, hey, look, I did stuff up, you know, you don't want to think oh, my gosh, there's a barrier here, there's a legal barrier, I can't disclose in case somebody, you know, the long arm of the laws gonna arrest [00:34:24] us and the files like a lot, right? It's like 1000 bucks. So that's kind of significant. [00:34:31] Yeah. And it's, but you know, having said that, sex workers do tell us constantly that they often use this sign, which is, you know, it's a little sign that's, it's targeting clients, this is information for clients, as a mechanism to remind them that they they shouldn't stuck around with unprotected sex. But as Vader said, you know, that six weeks event has stuck and negotiating skills. Second to none, really, in terms of getting those condoms and other things going. [00:35:11] So does anyone have any questions? Maybe they could put the hands up [00:35:19] assumed to be victims of trafficking. [00:35:21] And [00:35:22] I know that as a DC recently published a report on migrant sex workers and New [00:35:26] Zealand, can you tell us a bit about your findings? [00:35:29] Sure. And on Monday night, I think Monday or sometime next week, they'll probably be something on Campbell live about the study. Because TV three is going to interview wants to please come out with some quite outrageous things but Asian sex workers and they go to catch the evidence that's come from the study [00:35:54] there as well. [00:35:57] See later hundred, [00:36:00] six workers who are migrants six weeks since [00:36:04] we are going to have a look at the conditions and you cannot come to this country and be a six week or so you can't see it off from any country in the world apart from Australia, with the idea that you'll come and work here, be it on holiday award or supplement student earnings or anything and become a six week or which is slightly outrageous. So we that's also in the prostitution reformer. But when we when we surveyed the migrant six speakers, we did find that a number of them were here for different reasons. Some were terrorists tripping through [00:36:45] some ways students and [00:36:49] so their situation somewhat precarious. You know, they could they, we have a fairly productive Immigration Department, which is out there looking industry for victims of trafficking. And because the dynamic is that America, once he writes a report, that's the trafficking and persons report, and they write a report, and they give every country around the world, I thank Mark, and they put you as a tear, whether you're a tier one, tier two or tier three, country and right report card. And time and again, they do not like, you know, they make reference to New Zealand's liberal law. If you are under the age of 18, the American definition of trafficking is that the society traffics you. So regardless, you know, if your own autonomy as a 17 year old, for instance, the society has traffic to so you become a statistic, you become a terrific director. So they capture the impressions that NGOs have who are working with young people under their age and New Zealand, and they do find that there are six speakers who are under the age of 18. And there are six speakers who are under the age of 18. Not huge numbers that significant, you know, enough to have mentioned in this terrific in Business Report. [00:38:24] So that considering all six workers who are underwriting to be trafficked? Yeah, [00:38:29] that's the definition. It's not the definition we have in this country. But it is certainly there are people here who would like to change that definition. And but however, you know, that there's there are also people who are working on the anti trafficking issue who say that the word trafficking is such a catch all. It's such a misnomer. It's not really getting to the issue of exploitation. And I mean, we are very concerned about the situation migrants, six workers find themselves and some of the findings, yeah, they vulnerable to exploitation and so on that we haven't found evidence of trafficking. And that and that survey, we did find a person who said that they didn't have access to their passport, which would be a really worrying. You know, that's a really worrying indicator of something's not not right. And we have dealt with migrant sex workers who have had money withheld, have been really upset, has had significant amounts of money withheld. [00:39:37] And they couldn't go to the more about that, because it's not legal for them to. [00:39:41] Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's, it's, it's a bit of a frustration, one of them, one of the people we don't work, you know, she said, Look, you know, I don't, I don't mind I'm leaving anyway, I don't want to come back. And I'm prepared to speak. So you know, that kind of situation is really, really helpful. [00:39:59] And it's quite a getting money withheld is something that happens to like a lot of managers fix workers, hey. So if it wasn't so illegal for them to do their jobs in, that would be a lot easier for them to go to, to get something done about that. [00:40:17] So I can't talk specifically about migrant workers in the industry, if I can talk more generally about the problem of very narrow visas on enforcing workers, right. So it's quite a common problem for us, in my experience for people to be working to slightly breach that conditions and for their employer to hold that over their head and use it to threaten them into receiving less than minimum wage to working too many hours not being paid overtime. And I currently have two clients. So thing that I'm taking cases for who have been earning less than minimum wage working in kitchens. And the threat is I'll stop supporting your visa, you've worked too many hours on a student visa, if you go to anyone about this stand up going to help out of the country. And that is always a risk. But there are also organizations that will help a little bit because employing someone who's not allowed to work in the country or in a particular industry is also an offense under the Immigration Act. So there is combat against that you can get someone to stand up and yelling at them. [00:41:25] But it's a big problem. [00:41:27] And often not, it wasn't a six industry. But in the hospitality industry, there's a number of cases and investigations have gone on for and fast food and sort of ethnic restaurants. And there is where people are working illegally because they come over on student places or the right. And one of the main things is is immigration policy to send illegally back to their country of origin, even if they also prosecute the employer. And most employees know it. And they don't complain, because they know that we used to, it's great. [00:42:00] But there's an awesome thing. An important thing to note is that the deportation process actually takes a really long time. And there is also a time limit for appeals. So if anyone's worried they're going to be kicked out of the country tomorrow. It's highly unlikely and the QM and the immigration lawyer we have free immigration one is. [00:42:20] So we had another couple questions. [00:42:24] Yeah, I was just wondering, because I was 36 when it was decriminalized snows wondering if you could [00:42:32] tell me a bit about the history of how decriminalization happened. Like what sort of set that tonight off? So [00:42:40] we were made. [00:42:43] We were picked [00:42:45] up was being arrested. Yeah, it was our workers felt normal to us. So that, you know, it was a long one to push change. And I think we're inspired by homosexual law reform. I know we were and the mid 80s. And the times were quite rich, you know, like, HIV was around and there was a lot of activism, and people living with HIV. And, you know, so there was a big kind of social change that was on, you know, happening on needle exchanges were being developed and sponsored by the government. So it was kind of a liberal here. And we were inspired by, you know, other organizations and Australia. And of course, you know, I mentioned the English and the French and also the Canadian sex workers. So, you know, the language for sex work was just really developing Carol the scalar how that some of you may know who and San Francisco coined, she said, Oh, and into six work. And of course, we just caught up selves, the prostitutes collective because it's what you did you notice what other organizations did. And now it's kind of funny, I remember being in Kolkata with six weaker rights organization near few years back and they looked at me like as the default, you know, because the word prostitute has got its own stigma now and the wrong crowd. use words like prostitute and prostitution, and the right crowd talk about sex work and sex workers. And anyway, but you know, we stare down stigma gays with the sweet prostitute. So I think what kicked it off, was concerned, you know, we wanted our rights. And it was a slow thing, really. I mean, it just didn't, you know, somebody said, will say, what was your strategy? We didn't know how to spell strategy sometimes. Todd, just you, we were just doing what felt obvious. We met in Hayes, we were promised to criminalisation by Maurice Williams and his stolen power, actually, he was the Associate Minister of Health and made spectacular speech around marriage equality, which took him to [00:45:23] fame, international fame, but nowadays, [00:45:27] he said I always remember him said, Oh, kids from by Christmas will have it decriminalized. And he you know, we scripted Morris to say dance like it's a law made by, by men, for men against women. And so, you know, he would say all these wonderful things. And that was back in the early 90s. [00:45:50] So [00:45:51] just just, you know, got serious, we had to wait, he had to wait till we've got political time, either the right time sort of thing. And we had a Christian coalition, at one point gramley sitting in power and holding a balance of power. And we you know, it wasn't the right time to put in a private member's bill, the government didn't put on the bill that was that MP put it on. And Tim Bennett, and I've met his board members on the AIDS Foundation, and he had a real empathy for our show. And we script our way all the way through with the term about, you know, what would go into the law. And we've, we've built up a whole sort of coalition of support with women's groups, and the YWCA, the National Council on Women, Business and Professional women's Federation, with a fist organization to stand up. And, you know, mainstream organization and say we support changed the prostitution laws. So so the Marley woman's wealth really came on board, the public health groups were there, on the you know, the bit bit is concerned about safe sex and so on. It takes time, you know, and to get people on board and keep them on board, but it just seemed to happen. Took about 15 years before we got to that vote in Parliament. And we just got through by, by one politician actually, abstaining. [00:47:39] And Helen Clark's government butcher, what's been [00:47:44] lovely question. [00:47:48] And my question is about six workers who are working and manage brothels. And there are, I suppose, either employees or contractors. [00:48:00] And I noticed that [00:48:02] what I perceive one of the biggest problems is that when someone is applying for a job, and not necessarily in the sex industry, [00:48:09] it's also [00:48:10] really similar in the film industry, that when you're a contractor, it's a real table labor situation, you know, we we are any one of you to work for us. If you're going to do X number of hours, you're going to do night shifts, you're going to, you know, do this, and this is the seat pay rate. And it's very difficult to negotiate because there's like, if you [00:48:28] don't like these terms in, you know, so. [00:48:32] So yeah, film industry and six industry huge parallels there. And what my question is, and it's, although it's a contract assurance to the whole panel, [00:48:42] it's what do you think [00:48:43] six workers can do to combat it? Or what, what has been [00:48:47] what has been tried? [00:48:49] And I suppose that New Zealand and overseas, I don't know. [00:48:54] Yeah, I just say that as a huge problem. So what [00:48:59] was happening, [00:49:00] think that it's part of the wider societal perception, and maintained by rafal, and agency operators that six workers somehow unskilled work. And if you're not prepared to which these conditions, well, there'll be some other person who will be. But the more that we kind of get together and organize together, we realized that that's not true. And year six workers, skilled work, and it's intellectually challenging, surprisingly. And it's, it can be emotionally difficult, it can be emotionally rewarding. It can be physically, physically quite strenuous. But it's definitely you know, I've done lots of jobs, skilled and unskilled jobs, whatever that means. And six weeks is definitely a skill job. So the more that six speakers come together and, you know, value the profession, as a profession, I think what you can you negotiate with operators, let's try to change attitudes. [00:50:05] As sometimes think about that word professional, because it's used to demarcate, and I, you know, when I meet two people meet people, and so I couldn't do is when I was awake, I couldn't do what you do. And I suppose you could, because it's almost a neck moment, like, I couldn't do what you do. And I always remind people that of course, they could [00:50:32] be a sex worker. But the [00:50:37] Yeah, the whole issue, I've seen some really great sites, and I'm usually sworn to secrecy about them. And I've seen some good things happen. where, you know, we've had mediation, we've had victories around sexual harassment. And the idea that a sex worker could take a breath, hello, operator on around sexual harassment. And one, you know, that this just makes me thank God, nothing else. [00:51:12] And [00:51:14] I mean, that after that particular, but actually what went through a mediation scenario, that has gone to secrecy, and was heading off to something called the Oxford Union debate, and I slipped it into the debate, which I keep meaning to put up on YouTube. [00:51:34] We have [00:51:37] related relationships with people, you know, who are operating brothels, and that point around negotiation, you know, when you're standing there as a new sex worker, and about to start, you know, they did came to hire you. And I can, as you say, you know, dump all that stuff on you. And you'll do this, you'll do that. And we like to talk to new workers before they start and get them to have the lines, you know, about what I, you know, I'm studying, so I can't work until three in the morning, but I can work until 11. Now, I'm unable to do three shirts, because they always dump, you know, the song you like, if you want to work, you've got to do three shifts in the same breath. A lot of the operators say things like, we can't get enough people to work for us. And so he said, as a moment with them to say, you know, you need to loosen up about but the disputes to, you know, those penalties that they attach, I mean, when six weaker spread and some of the contracts, and you see these sorts of things attached, I said, Don't worry, they're illegal. They're legal. And you're one no disputes here, and you will work one, I can almost competently say that. Because we've seen enough of these quiet little disputes, you know, go down one, people telling the story about how their money's been withheld, or whatever. [00:53:07] And sometimes people worried that the thing [00:53:11] that if they come out about their boss withholding money or trying to pressure them into doing something, they don't want to do that it's going to go through course, and it's going to be public, but that's not the case. [00:53:20] So if you're going through the dispatch track, your name is not going to be in any public records. And if you're going through the employment mediation process, your name is also not going to be any records that both completely private, and you can reach confidential settlements and political. But I think another problem, which is contract negotiation is not knowing what terms are normal and what is not normal. And I think it's interesting comparison with the film industry where they say that the contract is king, and it doesn't matter what Tayo traded even if you treated like an employee. So I've heard that one term that is often put in there is restraint of trade, where you work for us thing, you can't work for anyone else like three months, which is not going to be enforceable. And like it is the onus is on the people benefiting from that was strange trying to show us reasonable and not just about reducing competition in the industry, which is going to prove that but you have to be a manager to remember restraint and trade a manager who knows strategy about how you're going to be advertising foot but entire three months, and it's privileged knowledge and no one else knows it. I mean, the standard is high. [00:54:43] So here's another question. Yeah. [00:54:47] At the Women's Studies Association conference earlier this year, there was a presentation on violence against sex workers. And this was done in Christ, you truth found the majority of harassment attacks, the race was not from clients, not from police. It was from bystanders and people going past, you know, like, groups of young men and women and cars trying also sex workers and the YI [00:55:14] is this [00:55:14] a countrywide thing and be it seems to be a stigma based sort of thing. And it's really things that, you know, [00:55:24] that kind of thing has always been, it's, it's part of, if you're a straight workout, that thing is part of part of straight if you stand out there, people are going to and they do this right, then thanks for bottles, there's for rock me except for everything. And [00:55:49] these, nothing really you can do, because, you know, by the time [00:55:55] you see places place when they're gone. Now, they just got past and, [00:56:00] you know, that's, that's probably, that's probably the worst thing about walking on the street is that kind of that kind of thing. [00:56:10] Kind of social stigma is making the main one of the main kinda [00:56:15] I think it could be, you know, it is a societal thing. And I think, a solution to raise awareness about it. Maybe and the hate crime, consciousness, you know, like, I know, I think it's Liverpool in and the police have worked closely with the sex workers, and they've developed, you know, they've said, Okay, if you assault a six week, are we going to treat it like a hate crime? And I really think that needs to happen. Because, you know, just to hear Chanel describe that it's kind of like, this is, this is what normally happens. And so we have to work against that. And I think things that people say about six workers, you know, the statements are really chaotic. You know, just a horrific kinds of things. I mean, I, I think one of the headlines around the time the law changed was that we were the Cancer Society. That's that was the headline, Cancer Society, and just read all kinds of statements that you wouldn't get away with saying about any other group, I wouldn't think I can't thank, you know, and I do think about these things. So I think until we get something that acknowledges you can't discriminate against sex workers, attached somewhere to some legislation, another, I think the way to do that would be to put it into occupation, generic. You know, you cannot discriminate against the potential flatmate who is a police officer or tax collector, and so I don't want to flirt with you. I'm a bit dodgy. [00:58:19] I think we need that kind of solution. [00:58:26] And people do. People do called us attitudes all the time. I remember about a month after I started working, I was having my first Brazilian wax ever. Because, you know, that's part of as an acidic standard in the industry. And as you know, a woman was pouring hot wax on my pubic area, she starts telling me about how her friend flirted with a prostitute. And how terrible that was, and hash didn't want to live with these kind of people. And I suddenly realized, Oh, my God work. I'm, I put on myself by the someone who should kick on about should be one that kind of behavior in a home and didn't I think it was terrible. And I was like, What do I, what do I even say? So those attitudes are, you know, the fact that someone would tell you that, while you were in, you know, that kind of vulnerable position goes to show that those attitudes are really widespread, really prevalent, really normalized, and that you're just expected to agree with that. [00:59:27] Are there any other questions? [00:59:32] I think my question is going to be two part question. And I'm not going to be very articulate because I'm tryna, I'm still formulating my hip, I didn't want to miss the opportunity to ask. So it's about race, [00:59:44] and racial inequality, and sex work? [00:59:49] How does that manifest? And [00:59:52] how are they addressed collectively, within the sex workers? [00:59:57] industry? [00:59:59] That's the first time right. [01:00:01] The second part is racial stereotypes. [01:00:05] So [01:00:08] there's a lot of racial stereotypes. [01:00:09] And [01:00:12] a lot of that has been manifested in the media and all that stuff. And are those stereotypes, a form of currency, and a form of value that's added into sex work, personalities and profiles? And [01:00:28] so how, how do sex workers [01:00:31] engage in challenging those stereotypes? As part of wider efforts in Xiaomi, researchers [01:00:39] code, [01:00:40] three good Christians, I'm just going to leave, because I'm older, and I will forget your questions. And then all the food, but just we have a network of six week projects, which is international and, and, you know, one of the fantastic, has been that six speakers all brought together and rub up against each other, and so on. And because there is always a tendency to speak for the other. And, in particular, you know, like, you hear people say, is, it's okay for you? Because you're able to say, but what about them lot over there. And, you know, typically it's Southeast Asia or someone you know, it's six foot for them, it can either be a choice, and it's a bit hard when you confronted with empower from Thailand, or the Son of God she organization from Kolkata, or Ben from South southern India, who was saying sex worker rights, human rights and, and and in Thailand to the six figure organization to talks about, talk to us about worker rights don't talk about to us about sewing machines. In the PC on Wall Street, we get people who come in, and they'll tell us these nauseating stories about wanting to go to help prostitutes. [01:02:15] And could we help them? Put them in touch with some? [01:02:24] Oh, by [01:02:26] my answer, so I just nearly lose, you know, and we have a collection of T shirts that we have on our we have a sprain that we've got t shirts from all around the world in six week organizations, and, you know, the, the six speakers from the Asian Pacific network of six week projects, which is out of Thailand, and we belong to that network. You know, here's [01:02:53] one that looks at McDonald's, [01:02:56] Star halls, and let's get started right across the gold nap shows. [01:03:03] And I saw that this was made by the six workers on Thailand. [01:03:08] Yeah, [01:03:09] yeah. Yeah. [01:03:10] And, you know, it's that, it's not to, to say that there isn't a heck of a balance, you know, in terms of economies, and in terms of how people arrive, and six week, you know, etc, and context of choice and so on. But all of that here, how do we combat racism? It's, you know, look at it, and we say, Look, don't speak about six workers and other countries. And this, you, you know, you know, what you're on about them speak for themselves, you know, as they can. [01:03:49] But these are, you might might, [01:03:51] I think, also, you really hit the nail on the head, when you're talking about kind of races, cultural currency, when you in a six week transaction, you, it's not like a normal six transaction, right, you were already fulfilling a sort of a performative role in terms of your gender identity, or your gender. And so I think, race comes into that, and that, you know, all, most of the six members of color who I've met, and obviously, I'm not one, but they play on, you know, they perform, you know, often quite ugly racial stereotypes. But, you know, if they can use that, to get money, to make money, it's not really any different from, you know, using your race as cultural currency in any other kind of job where your looks or your you, you look a certain way, you're performing a certain way. And I'm sure it's very problematic for a lot of those people that I think that they tend to just kind of have a sense of humor about it. And, you know, see it as another performative aspect of the job. And a lot of cases, [01:05:06] I've definitely been into [01:05:15] Christian, [01:05:20] it was really like to [01:05:22] hear all your stories, and I've never had opportunity to learn about sex work. And [01:05:31] my question is that, like, I work in organization, and it's, I have a lot of respect for marriage and things like that, like if anyone wishes to marry them, that's fine. You know, I believe that you married. But what [01:05:48] many cultures, me different cultures, it's used as a way too, as an excuse to exploit women. So, Laura, so people have told me that marriages legalized prostitution, where, you know, like, we have some cultural stuff about marriage and dollar you like buying a woman, the woman has to pay the inlaws money, because she's such a burden, because of agenda, like it's just a full transaction and men using women for getting citizenship. [01:06:26] This is not marriage. It's a transactional, business transaction. And it's been going on for centuries and [01:06:36] texts work. And I think, these mythologies and stuff like, you know, like this, the regardless offices and [01:06:47] the art of art of seduction, and, you know, it's, it's a profession, I believe, because it's hard work. And the people who go to six workers, there's a lot of things professionals can do, like the desire can be met, because the sex worker professionally knows how to satisfy the needs of the customers. So I understand that, but what do you think about marriage as a form of legalized prostitution? [01:07:18] Could I just quickly so look, you know, when I talked to new six workers, so no, don't undermine the State of the Nation here. Lisa's beast, and the idea that sex workers can do all these wonderful headstones, bollocks sex workers, you know, they do not want to be working too hard. And I believe probably in the marriage will be that six is far more productively, you know, and intuitive and the internet for that? No. And I think it's an important discussion, because I mean, sometimes you do here see it on six discussions, you know, like, we do what the wives don't do. And I, I said, it's a load of bollocks. To You know, you keep to as little as you can get away with [01:08:16] the quickest amount of time. I mean, [01:08:20] but marriage and sex work, it's, it's a difficult one. And of course, people forget to that says workers are often married, and have, you know, multi tiered relationships to manage. But we did have a T shirt, I think it must have been that was that who said or somebody. Prostitution is a rental of the body and marriages to sale. Somebody said it wasn't original, but we had it hanging in our community for ages. [01:08:54] But I'm saying that when when the client pays, you cannot pay for general use of your body, Harry Potter, yes, but supposedly specific things that you negotiate. You know, what you want to provide? And you don't do anything you don't want to do? And, and the law totally backs you. Yeah, if you want to say I do that, but that's amount of money. And I do not do this on the incident that says, we can say that. And [01:09:19] yeah, some other great sued if every woman charged every man, and I'm sorry, it's it's a little bit here, as it says that every woman charged every man the balance of power shift overnight, it came out of a Canadian rights six speaker, activist. [01:09:37] So a couple more [01:09:42] questions might be twofold, see where it goes. But the popularization and especially in the UK, there have been quite a lot of websites coming out with things which are sent to us were conscious, you know, put up, you know, the price they paid and what they thought the experience was like, and everything that been a number of projects, which have come out of it. And they serve to really highlight some very degrading, refined and downright dehumanizing clients like the punches, so the ones that come along and [01:10:23] have the services and then write these horrific reviews about these. [01:10:29] I feel that that's really ingrained in the notion that they're paying for the person and not the act itself. And perhaps as you know, male privilege thrown in there a little bit. So I suppose what I'm trying to get at here is how do you think that we should go about perhaps changing people's opinions about how to consume sex in a business setting, whether you through legislation or education? [01:11:04] Close, I just quickly says that, you know, that the client thing, I often wonder about that if it's kind of an internalized sort of horror, phobia, kind of thing, you know, like massage and a unleashed and some of those grateful for, for, you know, and I could come comes, I don't know what happens, I don't know, I can't be loose for [01:11:29] for, [01:11:31] can I talk as someone who participates, and I use [01:11:36] New Zealand hunters forum for advertising my brand. And by and large in New Zealand, the way that six booth is that discussed is relevant within the realms of what is a commercial six transaction is relatively respectful. I mean, obviously, there will be comments about the sex workers body, and CX that a sex worker engaged and but they generally tend to in New Zealand tend to be the time is, you know, not certainly no more degrading than what you'd find on your average Dine Out, quote, or invalid review. And, you know, I think that the community is quite self policing, in terms of maintaining, like a feely feeling growing up time, I think that, like Catherine said, a lot of men, in my experience, a lot of men who see sex workers, resent the fact that they paid for it. Black, you know, kind of a weird psychological thing about they do it, but they don't like the fact that they do it. And they often plays out and, you know, physical violence against sex workers, and also in discussing things that they write about us on the internet, in terms of what you can do about that, that's her is probably very little, because really, a six figure you have to acknowledge that you are playing into, you are performing quite a normative role. You know, I certainly don't talk to my clients about my politics, or my real job, or my boyfriend or any other aspects of my real life. You know, my sixth persona is, you know, an aspect of me betters Not me, you know, you're not having sex with beta. You're having sex with my persona. Yeah. [01:13:31] And what mirror does when they try to talk politics? [01:13:55] And I just had a question about the current potential change. And I was wondering what happened, people get involved and what plans it is to fight those laws. [01:14:09] We hit a select committee meeting [01:14:13] Thursday, and I can talk about [01:14:20] you know, that I can't talk. [01:14:25] But I can say that there is a, you know, plan unfolding at this point, and hopefully, it will come to light that all of the people invited to this little committee with from, you know, the police, US and the community boards, from the council. And of course, you know, you had the politicians, so we had some homework to do, and we're doing it. And we hope that, you know, ultimately, the legislation won't go back to the house. But what could you do in the meantime? I guess? I mean, it's a difficult call, because I, I think that, you know, if we were put up with the pace of play, you know, lobby, and I think we're probably no point at the moment where we're just in a holding position. But if it does go back to the house, then that would be a case to start writing to employees, any employees picking. [01:15:39] So [01:15:41] we call them victim as well, just so shut up. Okay. Oh, sorry. [01:15:45] I just wanted to talk about [01:15:48] what I have to say about 16 years, because I think that's been something that's been here recently, because it's going to [01:15:56] promote Swedish model, the idea that we should criminalize color. [01:16:01] And I was hoping at the minute that you've got to talk about this terrible idea. [01:16:06] I think the thing with sites like punch in it, and other sites like that is also that cannot make six figures concrete, that mean showing up to each other about what they think they can get away with, with six weeks and stuff. And a lot of that is actually completely true. As someone who has interacted with clients, and it's enough impression about me, it's very frequently have absolutely no relationship with what actually happened. from a [01:16:32] friend selves as successful me and desire for me, and, you know, they talk about how they've given up [01:16:55] doesn't, specifically. [01:17:00] Yeah, okay. Showing up to the other main about what great mania x men, you know, because people have this fantasy inevitably demand gives. Because, obviously, [01:17:14] because it's work, when I can join six, most of the time is the decision. And so people [01:17:22] want [01:17:22] to believe that the one who can break through that barrier and experience the group. But like I said, there's been a lot of contention on the subject recently. And I think it's because there's been pushes in Scotland, in particular, to criminalize clients. Yes, [01:17:40] spreading like a disease in the Swedish disease, we call it. And it's, it's really funny because Sweden, you know, you think of Sweden as being a liberal, liberal country, when I speak to six workers, it's got this parallel code of criminalization for going on. So while six workers can't be prosecuted, the clients can and that's the, it's called the six purchase. Anyway, and sweet and sweet. And if you're a client, you cannot pay for six, of course, you can, six clients continue to do so that they can be arrested. And that makes six because life very difficult. And other countries have put this legislation up and worryingly that's being pushed in the UK now. It's being pushed tonight, and specifically, moment to and Scotland, which has always been very, a very strong six figure rights movement. So that's really, really scary, and the US talking to the English collective the other night, and you know, that they're always having to fight off these mid cave ideas over there. And so we're really worried there, if it goes through and Scotland it will be seen as a kind of Western norm, you know, Sweden's very exalted, but its northern Europe and countries that have a cultural kind of relationship to New Zealand, etc. So yeah, it's one to be watched it live it flew here. So we saw slightly relieved by the fact that if you pay a six week are under the age of 18, and this country, you can be prosecuted. I always remember the discussions we had with the women's organizations about six women what to do about the client situation, and six speakers who are under the age of 18. And the woman from the Business and Professional woman's Federation, argued with the woman from the YMCA and said, Oh, great, so 16 year olds are allowed to practice, but they can't get paid for it until they're 18. banking. But, seriously, I think the whole sort of, you know, the the pendulum is swinging back against six worker rights, you know, we thought we've made huge gains, and now, it seems to be swinging back. [01:20:18] Hi, um, I just have a sort of whimsical, speculative question about [01:20:27] utopian sex work, I guess, like, after whatever revolution that might happen, like after me abolish capitalism or after? You know, like, I think that a lot of people see tokens, visions, like, we haven't really worked out that should [01:20:45] be transacted, you know, whether, whether [01:20:49] whether it would all just be like commune [01:20:51] happiness? Or whether there would be I don't know, do you have any process that [01:20:56] after the revolution, I'm going to be living in a polyamorous club? Yeah, I'll be too busy tracking all my work. [01:21:18] But interestingly, you didn't mention the word choice, which I hate. But I thank you for, because often that word choice is used a lot in the context of six weeks, [01:21:32] you know, choosing this profession, and you hear it, so. [01:21:39] But thank you for using the word choice. [01:21:45] I think I mean, I think that's the thing is that, you know, all workers is coerce to some extent, you know, like, I would really like to just get stoned with my cat and watch videos all day. But [01:21:55] you know, we've got to [01:21:57] pay rent and stuff, unfortunately. And so, yeah, the choices mean, there's different levels of choice and collusion, but it's all it's all a continuum. So [01:22:16] I was kind of wondering [01:22:17] what the relative [01:22:19] advantages and disadvantage of the Catholic, like a formalized training system like [01:22:27] sex work or something. [01:22:35] Pretty much happens in agencies, that, you know, you would think, again, that it's instinctive. For actually, going into my first job, I had no idea what I was doing. And six, you know, six speakers tend to learn from other six speakers to help you actually run a job. And because no one else really explained it to Catherine and our [01:23:02] clients. [01:23:05] And, you know, like, if six, you know, six workers, or body of, you know, the huge numbers out there, and they're training the clients. And so you can sort of pick up interesting things from clients hurts, her sessions meant to go. And so it's kind of a mirror image of what six speakers would normally do, comes back. So the whole sort of induction and six week, I am opposed to the professionalization. And the idea of certification, I guess, I find it snobby and elitist. And I'm a deconstructionist by nature. And I would like to thank all of you go out of here, right now and solicit the car yard [01:23:48] across the road, [01:23:51] you will make a buck, you can do that with minimal skills, but also hear what the two sides see is that there is a lot of skill that can along as we go along, and the course of six weeks that you attach, you know, to yourself, and that isn't without skills, and [01:24:10] you know, and you apply it to ethics of your life. Yeah, it did quite general skills, when I can put a condom on with one finger well, [01:24:22] General skills like it teaches you to be very good at like negotiating, negotiating tricky situations, I like being able to say no, and Why's that? I'm like, Fuck off. Like you have to [01:24:32] be able to say, [01:24:33] I don't know, if we know each other, well, enough of that. [01:24:37] teaches you to be able to [01:24:40] say no, and a whole variety of different ways in [01:24:45] and kind of also teaches you could transactional, you know, like sometimes I think [01:24:53] so you're in the 60 situation, the client wants to believe that they that you're there, because you're already in the world, and you just don't enough six. [01:25:03] And so they want to thank they want to forget that painting. So, you know, you learn to do all that quite [01:25:11] skillfully or something has to be like [01:25:15] to be a bit of an actress as well. You know, because we're kind of slow down. [01:25:22] About fantasy. But we know like if you learn from other girls, when it comes to clients, if a client wants something different. [01:25:33] And it may not be something that you want to do. [01:25:37] But that's what I would say do to the clients don't induce a you know, this [01:25:42] isn't about me, this is about you. [01:25:45] All of the ways that you can [01:25:46] think of Hell no. [01:25:50] This is about me touching you. [01:25:57] With this sort of carrot, I guess yet, like page lips shift against six work rights, particularly with the submissions that are coming firm. How [01:26:10] is it that people can become allies, and support f6 workers? Like what would be the best way to go about that would be engaging and the dialogue for social media [01:26:22] and expelling this? Can we see it? [01:26:26] Is it writing submissions? Is it punching Les Brown in the face? [01:26:32] desperately need or calendars to get on social medias and Flogger excellent that would be really, really helpful with social media, [01:26:42] etc, etc. [01:26:44] that this is really an acceptable, you know, the pending legislation? [01:26:51] That would be very helpful. [01:26:56] See, my Christian it still comes through [01:27:00] ization of clients. [01:27:02] Do you think that that impacts us from [01:27:04] I guess the societal misunderstanding some of the [01:27:06] reasons that clients might go into a six week or in [01:27:10] some situations that I've talked to in the past to talk about [01:27:13] how they get some clients who come [01:27:14] to them for therapeutic reasons, like learning how to hit [01:27:17] succeeding after an injury, you know, whole range of things like that. [01:27:22] But I don't think we really talked about it [01:27:24] very much. I just wanted your opinion. [01:27:30] differently. And [01:27:31] I think it stems from the idea that prostituted victims, and we don't need to be criminalized for that, because we've had all these terrible, terrible things happen to us. But you know, obviously, anyone who wants to pitch a six is a bad person. [01:27:47] which we all know that, you know, [01:27:50] clients come in as many different shades of six because they're all [01:27:53] different kinds of people. So [01:27:56] I've been there terrible clients and their lovely clients, just like any other industry. Yes, I [01:28:05] pulled a class of money. [01:28:10] And it's not even that I've got lots of money. [01:28:16] So we have a wrap up. Is there any particular things that anyone wants to [01:28:21] say before thank you all for such respectful questions? I was expecting tactic I've done. [01:28:30] Thank you so much. [01:28:31] It's been a real privilege talking to everyone. [01:28:33] I'm always curious to attitudes were one place and shifted either throughout the discussion. [01:28:44] So is there a show of hands of your attitude shifted or shake of your photos of me, [01:28:50] but some people feel like they've kind of had some good insights.

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