Session 7 - Beyond conference

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the queer of inches and privacy a.com. [00:00:06] Okay, so we're here to talk about trans representation in the media, we're going to be talking mostly with how we deal with the fact that a lot of the media representations of gender diversity at the moment are pretty bloody and accurate. pretty bloody offensive and pretty damaging, actually, to a transgendered obvious folks. To talk about that we have two people on the spear. We have Sharif over here. I'm just going to read I'm sure he says description former six week a transit of a supporter currently working on his public service career officer for maybe the last time to some she is transsexual, to other she's female to all who know who she is just curious. And the other person is going to another panel is Kelly. And Kelly is a trained and experienced journalist who deals with high profile cases, he has extensive experience with a variety of media. So what we're going to do a little bit, some of the other panels you've been up to probably is we're going to have 10 minutes from each speaker, then I would like to reserve the right of reply to one another, which I think is fabulous. Beauty. [00:01:10] Okay, [00:01:12] everyone, [00:01:14] let's pose. [00:01:19] Really, we've stopped Miami rain for paying for anything but I think this particular topic is very topical at the moment considering all the coverage that we've had lately, of the young trans person in the media. [00:01:34] Personally, I think that that was quite a positive [00:01:37] look, [00:01:38] and insight into trans representation in the media, because I did get quite a few perspectives from a broad range of people, which I think is sort of the media is what they really should be doing. Although it is quite a patchy that they started off since then analyzing things as they usually do. And then further on down the week, it actually started bringing a more positive light to it and getting a true community representational naptime comment on it. [00:02:15] Now, [00:02:17] Kelly and I both agree that there are certain managers within the media of trans people that really sensationalize us, and see us in a very sexual light. And one thing that I really sort of like to say is that we are according to society, we're walking talking breathing finishes, were pieces of mail, which I undertook a social experiment and I think quite a few people have done this as well by using a same form so on easy died, I'm creating a profile as a gay male, is I die female as a straight now as a straight female and as a transsexual. Most of the messages that I received on NZ during as I strike and gay, my own straighten, oh, it's been female, where would you like to meet for coffee and see how things got every single message that I came through, on my transsexual profile, Rose sexual. There wasn't one single one that actually asked if I wanted to meet up for a check for a coffee in a public place. And that really does show the sexualization of trans people and inside his minds, and to be honest, there are instances where in fact, we brought it upon ourselves. Because when people talk to the media, by the media want this really sensational story about you know, they want they down in the dumps kid who's risen, and now, you know, got a positive life, they want the tear jerker, they really want the vibrations and that's what it's all about, they're really not interested in somebody who's just loving, not just existing, like most trans people are doing is just existing, we are actually living we're out there in the world, you know, working on our careers really doing positive things, but and background not really right out there. And showing the world that this is what I am, you know, I'm looking at many I'm a transsexual, I've got a real job just like you. But quite frankly, fuck off. Really? Because that's, that's just how people see us, you know, as How can you as a transsexual, get a real job in the real world, per se. Because you're just a walking, talking breathing fitness, your piece of Mitch. And that's how people say us, unfortunately. And, you know, these, a lot of many stories of the wrong ones. I mean, I personally was part of that a little bit with tampon gas, and some cooler. That was, we won't rehash old memories. But that was that was taken just to the max, you know, it was reported in the New Zealand Herald, and then from there, just absolutely crazy all around the world. And even ended up in the Wall Street Journal. [00:05:37] It was crazy. [00:05:41] But you know, that that's something that really sort of reinforces that we asked all just different, and we're not a part of this world, and that will help in the world, can we actually be contributing members of society? admittedly, I was the stereotype a very early time in my transition, where I worked out on the straight as a sex worker, some of the worst times in my life were out there. But some of the best and most wonderful times we spent out there as well, lots of fun, but lots of tears, lots of laughter as well. But and now, it's really sort of come to the farm a little bit, and just now just working on my career, and stuff and the media and interested in that they just want the right things, they really want those sensationalized stories about how that that person who started down the street is now there, you know, and, you know, I've had a few calls asking, if I want to do a story, Syria, and I'm sure quite a few other people have as well, you know, but really, is that fear of being outed for the risk of your life. You know, because the media do actually want to present trans people in a positive light, but people actually need to put their hand up and do it, you know, and not actually shy away from it. You know, I mean, I understand, you know, you don't want to be acid for the rest of your life. But we need more spokespeople. And the media, and there's not enough of, there's not enough trans people who are actually brave enough to stand up and do that, because that is very brave. And, you know, nobody can be expected to do that. But don't realize that when you do present yourself in the media, especially film media, you are pretty much essentially outing yourself for the rest of your life. And that's something that, you know, you can't really expect people to do, but we do need people positive influences out there on the forefront and actually signed to society that we aren't normal per se, you know, that we can actually fit into fits what you wanted to fit in. But you know, there are those who, who going to be out there and totally fabulous and fly all the arms everywhere. That's cool. You know, I will demonstrate the miniskirt and high heels and whatever, all good suede areas, but you know, there are those ones that just want to carry on and just get on with your life. [00:08:16] Yeah, I suppose this fits sort of [00:08:22] an overview of it. But you know, there are [00:08:29] certain things that you can say about the media, like when they report something in print media, usually 100% of the story is most prominent pronoun in person, or when it's 5050, as well, when they refer to the person personalization, they use the wrong pronouns, and then post transition, they use the correct pronouns, why don't they use it throughout the entire story, you know, and there's not usually now anyway, story treasuring about somebody who's trends, and they store a great pronouns throughout the entire story. [00:09:08] To be honest, [00:09:11] before [00:09:13] I suppose pretty 90s, there was a lot of positive representation of trends in the media, there was a [00:09:22] trans woman, and Christchurch who was murdered with a samurai sword [00:09:28] by one of her clients, [00:09:29] by never referred her as a sex worker, they never referred to her as a trans woman, by never referred to her, or, or her lifestyle that she used to partake in, like drugs or anything like that she was just a person who was murdered. And although that was a terrible story, and a terrible situation, she was not misrepresented in the media, and it was very, very positive. And, you know, that's something that the media could have pounced on, you know, and could have really created a really negative effect on the entire community by saying, you know, I mean, it's happened to really now all transfer all trans woman or hookers, and stand on the street, on the corner, you know, working their ass off quite literally. [00:10:23] All trans woman tech drugs. [00:10:26] That's a massive thing. [00:10:28] You know, I even get people [00:10:32] come up to me and say, Well, you know, do you know the score any dress? It's like, Have I ever told you I do drugs? Have you ever seen me do drugs? You just asked me because I'm a training is I for goodness sakes, you know, and this is just random people coming up to me on the street. psychoanalyze us Gina with a score. And it's like, please don't assume, you know, it's better. You know, that's, that's sort of is what people have put us on. That's the box we've been put on. We're drugged up. We're hookers. And we've got no jobs, when that's just not true. I mean, yeah, there are people who have a stereotype. Absolutely. And I suppose for one reason or another, they follow us up through the cracks, or they actually enjoy their life. You know, because it is possible to enjoy that life, I enjoy their life for quite a long time. But you know, there are ones who are doing that just because they say they have no other choice. And we can't touch them on that. But in saying that, you know, we need more positive representation. And people need to be a lot more brave, to put their hands up and say, I'll do that. No problem. Just be aware, you are essentially asking yourself the rest of your life. And if you do that, you know, there are things that there could be backlash. But that's only because of the small mindedness of society, you know, it's going to get to a point hopefully, possibly not in my lifetime. I pray that it will happen in my lifetime, where anybody can just be themselves and be happy to believe in themselves without any fear whatsoever. [00:12:22] Just wondering if [00:12:24] my heavy drinking session last night where I'll be able to stay on my [00:12:33] night, just catch me. [00:12:40] just picking up on what Sharif said before about the image, we create our own image. And I don't want to give you too much of a long dog as story. But when I sort of began my transition, I suppose in 2008, the first thought I had when I thought oh my god, I'm some kind of transgender person. And instantly the image I had of myself was staggering RK erode. And still Leah ties with a sequence dress and a blonde beehive wig chasing after Robin cars and looking for my next job. And I thought to myself, Oh, my God, is that is that the image now way that that image comes from, and that image has come from the media. And that said, it's because what often how trans people have portrayed and if you just look at something like the big guy out, the trans image is some overly painted drag queen with a great big draping and arm around john key. And these are the images which end up on the front pages of newspapers and that kind of thing. But as I said, I don't want to talk too much of a long dog as story. But as, as, as I started looking at this, I realized that and an incredibly public job like I have, which has appeared in court every day in the criminal jurisdiction. My me and presence as a trans person was going to be changing the image that some people had because of like me, they had this image of the sequence, monstrous on k ride, then how are they going to perceive me and I realized as I see it up with some friends, a little transport trans advocates that our mission was to achieve influence because of course, that's what we want. We want to influence achieve that literally throughout prisons. So it's not about going off and being a great firebrand, but he about getting on with your job and being unexceptional. If not I mean, when doing a good job but not standing out like the proverbial dogs balls in the job that we're doing. So just give you a little example. I was reading the paper a month or so ago and some high profile lawyers and Wellington's the child had been caught transcribing. And I was reading the New Zealand Herald about some Willington lawyers and those both they were in the paper because their child had been drunk driving. And so that child would never have made the newspapers but for the fact that she came from lawyers, lawyers were her parents. Sorry, I'm driving along with my son not to work fine, right? He's 21 talking about a drugs cases too. And he said, Gee, you should hook me up with one of these you know one of these drug dealers you've got a casino the pound right to the cure, quoting from fan off the paper, you know the party, hydride down and the way stalker Jesus screwed up there and read it does he know, hook me up, woke me up and I said, Son, can you imagine you would make the front page of the New Zealand Herald that you got caught because of our That's right, we'll be lawyers, some busted for partners it nice, some sexual lawyers sudden faster for pot. And they ended up they ended any further conversation about Trump, the whole come up with one of my clients for a panda died. And that's the thing, and we are attractive to the media. And we need to be very careful about that. Because we are under more scrutiny as trans people than normal people. I mean, it just goes with the territory. Now, as I trained as a journalist in 1990, I worked as a journalist for a burgeoning sort of the I don't know what happened, but sort of things went bad and I became a lawyer. It's been downhill ever since then. But I realized quickly that there with a hell of a lot of other transgender lawyers practicing law, [00:17:00] that I was going to attract attention. Now. I'm the kind of lawyer who actually looks at a lot of other lawyers around the place and who go from being caught with the roast to feel the dust in a very short time, those that caught the media almost invariably end up with their assets getting button bought. If you're going to court, the media, you've got to take the good with the bad. And I've always had the attitude, the very best kind of lawyer is the invisible one, because the client wants to be invisible for the most part. And that's not achieved by having a peacock lawyer, as you bet that much better off having a dread lawyer who comes in through the side entrance and gets you in and out of the side increments of your the client. And so I've always seen the media, rather than not quite so much as the enemy of lawyers, but as something which is he not very useful. If you caught the meteors, because you're short on ego, short on work, or something like that, it can sometimes have a microbial effect for one client. But again, you want to start something with the devil, they just about is going to spoon long enough. And if you start trying to use the media to promote one case, well, then they're going to be using, they're going to be coming and seeing you about other stuff, which you perhaps would rather didn't take an interest on. [00:18:28] So and my point is that [00:18:33] I've managed to keep a very low profile. And I've done that, because I because the media and her always after stories, I had developed a policy of throwing out lamb chops to them. In other words, things like you want to get down to courtroom for on No, no, no, you've got something interesting going on the courtroom one. Now that won't happen call to 15. courtroom for that down the prologue. And by doing that, the media realized that they were much better off having a an ongoing supply of useful information. The lamb chops than coming and trying to have one big feed of thought steak off my back, because that will be the last one. And as I transitioned on YouTube knew, every day, the reporters in court not remember doing one trial. And the first trial I did where I assert of myself as most ensure enough reporter from 60 minutes was there. And from there on lead a nearly a five year marriage chase away. Eventually, they tracked me down and said time to do that story. And I said no, no, no, no, no and messy. But you're right at the marriage equality Select Committee on Tuesday at three o'clock. And I said not model. And I said we'll use you. And we're going to camera the. And at that point, I was presented with the option of cooperating and achieving some influence, or continuing to be curmudgeonly, and, and uncooperative In which case, they go and do their own digging, and write their own stuff. And I prefer not to have that happen, particularly because I've got a couple of kids. So you know, in the end, I decided to go for that cooperative attitude. And fortunately, because they had pursued me for so long, I was able to exert more influence on that in this story than perhaps I would have if I put my hand up right at the outset. But the point is that they ended up giving a what I thought was a pretty good portrayal. And it's not was not that sequence, deleted image that many of us have, and which is sort of aged indelibly into my finances. I want to talk now about surgery. And one of the most offensive things I think I have found is that trans people seem to be as a great generalization filled with a lot of people who want to talk about the genitals. Hi, my name is Cindy, and I'm post-op. This is often the first kind of introduction that will occur at say, a crane support. And my first daughter, I'm not interested in your genitals, I'm interested in your mountain, your river, and your family. And you know, your genitals do not add to the strength of your argument that don't make you a better person than me. And in fact, the talking about your genitals and bragging about your surgery, an actual fact probably makes you up, at least Elisa person. But the point I'm trying to make is that we have created transgender people have created a culture where the world thinks it's okay to ask us and we've done that by talking about it all the time. And by brandishing at Jana schools, and in the lies to any discussion that we have. And of course, we'll all see their dozens of documentaries around the place where Sergeant Major gets turned on the barbie doll with five simple operations and the Thailand chop shop. All done with a macro latencies. Staring staring at the the apparatus. And this is often done, obviously, with the consent of the person who's doing it, and often, I believe, has been done with funding done by the documentary makers. So you might as [00:22:43] well pay us to do something as long as we can format. And while I can understand some people wanted to take advantage of free surgery, it has created what I think is a very bad culture. And that culture is overly sexual realized trans woman. And it has created a culture where people think that it's okay, I mean, we see it on TV all the time. So why can I ask you about your vagina? And you know, and this sort of seems to be the the mindset, and I say we need to crush that. And the only way we can crush lead and will have to be a long, slow crash is to stop talking except an appropriate circumstances about our genitals because our genitals do not define us. And the conversations about genitals I'm sure trans people sometimes want to have a conversation about, but it should be done in the right kind of space. It shouldn't be done on public. Nobody talks about the generals in public, what's special about cranz people? And so I want to make this point, you know, we should stop yet never ask. And they have a tale of accept and you know, the most intimate of situations, because we have created this monster, and the bloody awful one. And I can remember turning up the court that 20 lawyers queuing up to see a prosecutor about trial date, and the first thing was off date protection said Oh, oh, can I tell them this was the senior partner. And Meredith Connell, a lovely fella, I'm sure could conduct himself in the decor spite under normal circumstances, the theory was in front of 20 people sitting here you're going to get the yet and looking at thinking go, you're going to get the and I just died 1000 deaths. Tremendous to keep my poker face. And just to give us the date place the pointers? How could an educated person who was able to act with great decorum and diplomacy in his workplace and was excellent there, but how could he asked me in front of 20 other people about genitals? What kind of culture has generated thoughts. And as I say, it's the it's the culture that we have created. Now, I also want to say that this you know, and and anybody here who does drag, who's deeply offended by this, perhaps I'm not the Safe Space content to come and deal with, but drag too many trains people is absolutely offensive. Drag is gay guys. crazy enough and lurid stuff for entertainment. And forgive me, my god and got a sense of humor, but I've never been able to see the humor of it. Because I see it as being very much like blackface you know, some of us might be old enough to remember the black and white folks talk show how the hill is drag different. Now I don't see it, I see it as taking the posts out of women, and parodying and mocking trans people. And it's gay guys hogging the limelight? What is the image in the picture? It's the night Miss rhiwbina Director, Dr. diver john key, it's not sure nice weather here. It's not me, you know, with my head down and cold or shuffling through the market with McCauley. And that's because those images are not spectacular. And I think that what we have allowed the gay male community to do is effectively hijack the images of trans people that are portrayed in the newspapers. And I don't know quite how to address that. And I know that a lot of people disagree with me saying, hey, look, you know, God said You of all people should hardly be getting concerned about what other people are wearing. And do not think that just because somebody else is doing that, as Miss for, you know, dresses funny is going to reflect on you. But when we have this image, this spangled sparkly image, which all of us probably have, when we think about trans people. [00:27:00] There's the damage, and it means that there's this, this, this image is there, and it's very, very difficult to live down. [00:27:08] And the only way we can live it down is by living a normal sequined non sparkly life. And of course, that does not attract cameras. So how do we improve our image in the media, and my thoughts are is by getting on with that jobs, not talking about it. And of course, not staggering around on Kairos wearing them sequence and just being good people doing good work. And inevitably, I'm and I was talking with my father the other day, and I said, Look, I don't wanna be famous for being crazy, because well, you might not have any choice about it. But I want to be known as a good lawyer, a good parent, kind of pig farmer, I don't want to be defined as less, I'd rather be defined as a pig farmer than defined as transgender, of course, stop stop farming pigs, but I mean, that was what I did, you know, six weeks ago, that was what I did. You know, that's what I did. It's what I do to earn a living, put food on the table, and that kind of thing. And those are the kinds of images that we need to create my view, not the images of drag the images of, of cross graces walking up the street near and then all the Get up and that kind of thing. And I make this point to the whole sexualized image of trans woman. It's completely false, because there are no train, you know, if you if any of you here, I don't know how many of you here know, the kind of hormone regime but trans women go on. But trans women, if they've had surgery, lower surgery will then the testes have been removed, castrated, the hormone regime that transforming going on is the kind of thing which would have you average takes us jail warden. If he was looking at the the coal mine printout for one of his prisoners were pedophile prisoner. He would be looking at that guy. Yes, these drugs are very court now your average trans woman who would have a printout and show the printout of the whole nine labels, your average takes us person Warden that began Yep, the polls are doing the trick. The reality is that the polls that trans woman take estrogen, and testosterone blockers have no you wouldn't be doing it for six. Why? Because it reduces libido. curtains atrophy, you know, the list goes on a whole lot of things, which you really wouldn't be doing if you want to go on a wild night on k road. So that just illustrates know that we've got this incredibly sexualized image, which completely is at odds with the lives of most trans people. In the end, it's entirely up to us how we change these images. And the way we do it is probably not by being spectacular, and how we look. But by being spectacular, and what we do. And when I say spectacular, and what we do is the good things that we do, you know, it does almost spectacular for trans people to be seen as parents to be seen as workers to be seen as something other than the sparkling image of a sex worker or a drag queen, and the ball is totally in our court. And as cranz people, we need to be conscious that we are under the microscope. And anything we do anything we do, which is remotely newsworthy, becomes extremely newsworthy, just because we're friends, one of our kids gets busted. Gonna be transgender persons can bust apart. And the only way that we can change their my submission to you to work hard being good citizens work hard at being good parents work hard and Matt jobs, and at realize that the media attention is always going to be on us. And when that spotlight does come on us, we want to make sure that we're behaving well, because as we all know, the images of trans people are not all good. And we want to make sure that the media has good ones. And we achieve that by being good trans people, thank you for your time, people [00:31:38] really want to reinforce what Kelly was saying, you know, it's really up to us. How we portray ourselves in the media, because [00:31:49] when you undertake media training, [00:31:53] you're taught that the media wants something from you. [00:31:57] And whatever you give the media, whatever going to report. So, you know, it's up to us to really change that image. And the and really want to reinforce Kelly's comments on being good at what you do. And just being really good people, and, you know, really worthwhile contributors to society. You know, whether that's working on on on your career working on your education, or we're just working on yourself, and looking inside yourself to really sort of find where you fit in this world, you know, and, yeah, just just stay awesome. [00:32:48] Something I should have said earlier, we can open the floor up now for questions. If people don't want their question to be in the recording of the session, can you flip this? And we'll give them we have control over this. Second thing, I realized I don't have a clock or a timepiece and I can't see what I'm a string. So I'm wondering if someone is one of the questions to make sure we have as much time as possible for as many people as possible to contribute. I want to encourage people to be quite tight with the questions or comments, [00:33:21] rather than more [00:33:23] exploratory with the questions or comments. So we'll open the floor now for questions. [00:33:31] I actually have quite a lot to say. [00:33:35] So camera, a point that Sharif, my regards to what do you tell the media is what they report. And that's it the old way when I was in the in the army years ago, there's a big exercise in the central North Island, and I was in damage control officer. It's part of the exercise, some soldiers ended up in a field of post on on walking bus station penitent, who was supposed to stay out, unfortunately, dropped out of an airplane landed in this in this panic. And some more on the CD mom and Dr. Sheila had to pick them up and there was a there was a significant amount of what appeared to be a significant amount of damage to to the car. Factory, the manager came to us and said, Hey, you cannot hear the media less on the fact that there was an issue and recorded that night. Before I was involved in the investigation. The media reported brought straightaway for product for a publication that night, there was a major incident that was going to cost the fans thousands. I took a helicopter flight across the paddock with the manager we agreed on issues such as with the pod tracks to talk tracks to vehicle, the length of the tracks in and out of the thing where X amount of stuff, we can win square meters, the European media, and it came to about $389 I think at the end of the day, I reported that was Kairos to report that directly to that same reporter that after I've done the investigation we've come to the settlement and that did not get reported No, it did not suit the agenda that that reporter or his editor wish to present then in his particular [00:35:30] publication I think [00:35:36] the issues for us the points of the rise a good points I agree but I think there's a there's a real deep underlying issue that doesn't just a fake transgender bathroom really affects all marginalized groups people with it with an ass society and I am is it is my ready for that steams right back to home Hank number right and and his building out Catholicism and starting off Anglicanism and not suiting. Too many of the people that era type rise to the Puritans and and the problems. We ended up with that fundamentalist Protestantism that found that it didn't have a place in England at the time children in the UK, in the east coast of America. And in that in that form of Protestantism, where they elected the pastor's role. They're the leaders within their organization, democratize religion, if you are not democracy, but they've democratized it, if you can pick up the subtle, subtle difference in in that definition. And it was that ISIS of democracy say that formed the thinking behind the formation of America. And as that model of democracy and everything else to discount with the Protestant, Protestant movement, the freedom of the great thinkers, Newton and the like to open your minds to the interest in creating the Industrial Revolution, and all of the constructs that are flowing through from that powder, which there's the media. And we [00:37:29] can just pause you for a minute, I just want to leave other people in the room or chance to ask questions. Did you get one question at this point you want to ask? [00:37:37] Is it if this face can make to the show? or anyone else in the room has any questions [00:37:43] you would like to [00:37:46] go to you and you [00:37:49] just want to say awesome thoughts and ideas from [00:37:52] remotely? Thank you very much. [00:37:56] My question is more about cut off this. So what I'd like to do if there is an opportunity for me to involve media, I'm like to say but one of the reasons I would I am I'm terrified of being in the media is because the media, so consistently, Miss changes people uses the wrong pronouns, [00:38:18] using the wrong assumption, thanks, things like that. And it seems to be so [00:38:24] it covers the entire industry. But it seems that it's more it's not. It's not accidental, but something bigger than that. So my question is, how can we [00:38:34] improve the state of media to correctly gender people, for example, in the idea that, [00:38:40] if it can happen to them, I think it's the last week do with relationships with the media. And I mean, I can say, I've never been must gender. I've been quoted many times, because I'm working in a smallish town, doing reasonably high profile cases, that means that there probably wouldn't be a week that would go by without my having something on Mondays. And never happens. Why? Because I've got good relationships with the [00:39:10] media, they know that [00:39:12] that the never ending bait of chops to throw it, throw [00:39:16] the way, and I wouldn't buy the [00:39:18] day that [00:39:21] they wouldn't pay, because they would know that if they personally off, then they would no longer be getting the chops. [00:39:27] And, and I just want to make this [00:39:29] point. [00:39:32] Sharif was talking about more people standing up. But I do think the trans community, there are too many people wanting to stand up and spout their opinions. And there are factual people who are actually doing work. So just standing up saying I'm trans have something to say, my advice will be Forgive me, don't say anything, and keep away from me. But if you're doing something which is worthy, and which you want to, which would attract [00:40:05] media attention, [00:40:07] will store or if you've got something like the trains personal issue [00:40:14] we're talking with, not for a while, [00:40:16] where, unfortunately, I don't want publicity. But I wanted publicity for that. And so the point that I'm trying to make is just because the trains and just because you've got something to say, That's no reason to go anywhere near a reporter, that's a good reason to avoid reporters like the plague. If you've got something that you're doing, and that you want publicity for, then seek the media out. But remember, you're giving them something. And if you give them something, then you should be able to establish a relationship where they're going to treat you with respect, but let's just, you know, I'm transgender, and I want to speak about this will then you're probably not going to be the media is gonna be all he's just another publicity seeker. And they're not kind of sort of take particular, can we 60 minutes, you know, tracked me down, got me in a corner of the marriage equality Select Committee. They had courted me for so long, they were so interested in the story, that the last thing they wanted to do was push me off. And so that means that for example, they didn't dare ask about my surgical status. They didn't dare ask what my former mine was, they did they actually asked to see another photo of me. And, and hope to that might allow them to well run there. But I said no. And that was okay. They'll find what their why, because I have something good with JC to give them. And that was the trains personal story. So keep away from reporters, and least you've got something that they want. And, and when it comes to giving them that thing, [00:41:58] give it to them on your team. Don't just throw it out there [00:42:02] because you want to make sure that they're buying a top. And the price that you want them to pay is respect. And that respect those don't ask about a winning tackle. Don't ask about my name. Don't ask about [00:42:14] you know, that kind of thing. [00:42:15] Sorry, that was a long answer. [00:42:19] Anything you want to do? [00:42:24] She's got me on remote control. Yeah. [00:42:31] Thank you both guild up for both of what you've said. And yeah. I was watching something the other night on football at in, in, in, in Toma. And one of the good things about that program was it talked to the fucker later with their families, with their parents, with people who love them for a reason. And then it showed you you know, that this fall at night, you know, with all the standards that have been, you knew that there was something more than that. And that was the big thing for somebody was watching as they do that they do governments they work they do this. [00:43:11] But what did you think it was? Well, [00:43:15] yeah, exactly. Well, if I do a tombstone, I promise you. [00:43:21] But within that, that they seem to be, and I'm sure it's not always a feeling of family environment for them to actually come through. And I know it doesn't happen all. I know, it can happen with some mommy families where it's good. But I know that somebody's family, it's not. But sometimes for those people, when they come [00:43:43] to have their own New Zealand, [00:43:45] they don't have the same if you like, family structure behind them. The jobs they do are in factories, often and they do this, so their life becomes very drab, to make up for that onset daylight, all of that goes on, you know, and it's also having an understanding of that, but also knowing that that's not the only way to live. And I think that's where the education actually does help with what you're both saying is that they can have another life in this country. But it does take work for those ones, because many of them come up with not the best English, our main and I work with grandparents who didn't speak English. So I know what that's like. They also have come with a dream here to try and improve their lives. They're also sending money back home. And we did that a lot, too. So often you don't have the necessarily qualifications. And I'm talking about this in general users and very watchers, but I think they still have a right to be there. That's what I'm saying. And if in another generation, we can come through this to get to we're up for [00:45:05] the thank you both for what you have shared with us today. [00:45:10] Can I make a quick point? I just want to make [00:45:15] a comment, you know, [00:45:19] I felt the child's privacy was destroyed. [00:45:23] It was taken over a lot to convince me that it was worth doing. And the media generally, I mean, talking about children, particularly doesn't respect [00:45:36] the proper process of protecting people's privacy. And [00:45:43] I'm interested to know what you think about that. I mean, you can evaluate the whole story as positive or negative from the point of view of the trans community. But in terms of the child, I think, does that mean chances the damage it could have do with federal? [00:46:02] If I can speak to that. Firstly, I think that it's, and I don't want to get too much into the rights and wrongs of that. But it's generated of a really good conversation. But I will say this, if you start looking at the between idea, the numerous trains one on one documents, which are out there, teaching people just the basic etiquette, and one of those things is never out people, if they don't have, you know, I don't you know, you don't say, Oh, this is my friend, she's post op, or this is my friend, she's trains just and I would afford and you know, I don't want to sort of starting over for but after your child and the national media, even that might have generated a fascinating and perhaps worthy conversation, I think you might be right, there's a consequence to that. And I just think that, you know, nobody should be outed, except when, but enough and actually enough to be able to do it themselves. So I suppose I have to agree with you [00:47:09] totally agree with you there that, you know, this child [00:47:15] will [00:47:17] have to live with the rest of their life. [00:47:20] Now, I'm not 100% sure if this tribe is actually name is been named in the media [00:47:25] and the [00:47:26] city of the gate, [00:47:27] the gate price. So the name, the name is Rob Wiest, on the end to whip [00:47:36] up your story. Exactly. Once we sort of sat there said privacy. And we've done basically Linda's comes by I feel you could at least sort of stop yourself. Yeah. [00:47:55] And you know, that comes down to [00:47:57] major really [00:48:01] have the conscience to be able to project this child because at the end of the day, who gives a fuck if this job is trans or not, [00:48:10] you know, this child is going to have to live with this for the rest of your life. You know, they may even have to [00:48:17] choose a different 93 get away from it, you know, that's just unnecessary hurting banks. And that's just what the media does really, they really don't give a fuck about who they hurt what they say as long as the story gets up there. I mean, yes, there has been sort of positive implications where it is finally actually being discussed. You know, the the real issues are being discussed, but [00:48:48] it's really sad that this child has actually [00:48:53] Yes, actually going to have to [00:48:55] Microsoft, [00:48:56] let me nail my own [00:48:58] colors to my own match. And by God, anybody else does for me. They might find that the I'm waiting for them when they come down. [00:49:09] Well, yeah, being on the end of that time. [00:49:14] I think it's a beautiful place to eat it surely. [00:49:17] And I'd like to thank both of you for sharing such a nice

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