Session 3 - Beyond conference

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the queer of inches and privacy a.com. [00:00:07] It's my pleasure to introduce your panel today. I'm Sandra. [00:00:12] By by walking biking, [00:00:22] we're talking I woman who likes pits a lot. [00:00:27] In move, who had rainbow Wellington board member and continuity for QE say, [00:00:35] also more for support the scene and it inspires me, my name is directly and I'll be your facilitator today. [00:00:44] Sandra will be heading up this [00:00:48] exchange. Thanks, everyone, for coming along to hear us talk and to be part of a conversation or a moment. And just to get into it straight up. My name is Sarah Dixon. I'm packing on by six. I'm a bargain. I'm a swimmer. And I'm ridiculously privileged around being very able bodied. I'm going to use the word queer in this conversation. Talk about sexuality and gender diversity. So I want to start with, we're gonna have a bit of trouble seeing the presentation, I think, Can people see it now? People read it? No, not really, all of us at the moment is the two sentences of this talk. And I want to start with the second sentence because it's kind of a bit I'm interested in the second sentence is a facilitated discussion on the politics of nine. So I guess, politics of man. And what does that even mean? For me naming is politics. Naming is all about who holds the power always. It's the power to name the power to define the power to create and recreate meanings and boundaries, who's included and who's excluded. So if we're having this conversation here, and for me, we need to start with the fact that we're living on colonized land, right? colonization projects all over the world was a naming or rather, the renaming of place of mountains of lakes of rivers of islands of seas. Part of colonization projects all over the world was a naming or rather than renaming of people have ways of living of why is it organizing social structures and families and lovers in relationships? That naming that renaming was literally about taking over assuming power planning, belonging, other end, and in the case of other alternative fino. So when we talk about politics in naming here on our table, and we're referencing it to Queens, the people with diverse sexualities and gender identities, we need, I believe, to pay attention foods to the disruption, the attempted destruction, that colonization creative attack attack for Pakistan and for factor why Hindi. Formerly, here's the deal with the renaming of place that colonization enabled in colonize the colonizers enacted the attempted disruption of ways of belonging to FEMA, with all of that all that it means when you attended a FEMA and a form RT have to deal with the renaming. The controls over gender and sexuality that colonization enabled and colonizers enacted. into leave it out of the conversation was kind of criminal really. But I'm going to leave discussion of it to people much more qualified than I am to deal with it. And I'm personally looking forward to hearing both the news speak and the conversations that will come out of the tech tackle a panel later today. If nothing is politics, and we see that playing out around rice, in terms of colonization, and all kinds of wise, we can also see it playing and other systems, other social systems of domination and oppression. I'm going to talk now about the words that English words that we used to talk about sexuality and gender diversity, and how they've developed over the last 20 or 30 years. And I want to use a local example here in Wellington of the gay and lesbian fair. So the game has been set up in 1986, to raise awareness about homosexuality, and to build support for homosexual reform, which was being before in his own pilot for 22 years from 1986. it operated the Newtown school, then UK and the early days it was tiny about Is there anyone here used to go and it does. [00:04:30] Yeah. [00:04:32] It was tiny used to be able to walk around and talk to all your ex lovers pick up a couple of signals uploading and be done in 14 months. And from the very beginning, stallholders included people from sexuality and gender diverse backgrounds and communities who did not identify as gay or lesbian. The Wellington bisexual woman's group which is a group I'm paddle, started paying the have stole very, very early on. We would see that within newsletter, NF pamphlets in a social group information and lots of stuff that MMOs wanted to sell. And despite the fact that we had paid to be allowed there, is it restored hold ahead. We were repeatedly asked and told that we shouldn't be there. We were repeatedly asked why we were there. And it was repeatedly my colleagues who asked that we didn't really belong. We responded in a couple of ways today. One of the ways was that we were the numbers sort of the feminine side before us. The other way was that we talked to the organizers repeatedly about the name of the fear, making it clear that we were and we want to welcome that was a conversation that started in the late 80s and continue throughout the 90s. I was talking to Manny about this recently enough, let me know that I'm going to meet you in this conversation here. Many of you and I managed with ranging the diversity and the six people's rights. And Malik told me that trains groups were having similar experiences at the same time sometimes choosing not to be here all because the experience was so negative. So I went to the girl has been 50 years, sometimes being part of a bisexual woman's group stole someone's hanging out with friends and lovers, mostly, but they show the name wrinkled not far from a line and raising it over and over again. But it wasn't until 2008 that the name finally changed to reflect the people holding stalls singing, speaking dancing hanging out. It's on the fear moved into civic square and McCann M square. I've got no idea what 2008 was the year that the name changed. I can't remember there being anything in particular that made a change at that point. But I do remember celebrating the name change with lots and lots of friends from all kinds of sexuality and gender diverse backgrounds. But that tagline Can people see the table still welding scan these when fear and the fine print. Last year I'm going to feed out with us as humans quite often I've got lots of boxes at home of them different things I've done over the years and lots of places to talk about explosion. But now here Facebook [00:07:12] you know know how to use it finally it's taken me we will [00:07:17] know how easy that is to read. Basically, I asked the organizers at the end of last year why the tix to the square describes it as an event for queer people. But the logo was still calling it again lesbian fair. You can see maybe have a see there that the response was that they would put the tape on it for a vote the next day on the screen. The conversation though wasn't restricted to this set of comments basically a whole bunch of trends by gender diverse people started having these conversations on Facebook on the Adams career page and elsewhere. [00:07:58] Facebook kicked off the debate got more and more here. [00:08:03] By the time I got a reply at the end of that post the sign that there was going to be a vape they've been a number of other really problematic conversations on Facebook elsewhere. This is a this is a cut this is a comment that kind of speaks to some have problematic some of those conversations with this is from an ex cheer of Adams square. So he's laughing about acronyms. I think covers everything with humor sheesh, what is it a lien that can never interview chronic food? Everybody? Apparently, this debates going on for many years. Yep. But Sydney it's sufficient into the fear. Do you think it hasn't been discussed at length? So that's kind of a stop making so much noise and go Why would you do btw XYZ it is meant to be facetious, because it really is becoming a joke how this whole queer umbrella alphabet soup thing is going we're aiming to include everyone while excluding ourselves at the same time. identity politics is so boring and to [00:09:01] this stuff. This was coupled with explicitly [00:09:08] telling trans people to stop raising the issue really, and telling a bisexual woman who previously been involved in organizing the fear that she hadn't raised it enough when she'd been on the organizing committee. So obviously raising it now can probably imagine that it gave me a bit of a sinking feeling a bit of a tear on the head of voting on a team one was going to go, which made me want to blog. So I write something [00:09:34] publicly [00:09:36] about the fact that naming is always about power. And about the fact that holding a vote it the fear was it's an exclusive tagline was really unlikely to have positive outcomes. Unless we ask the people that were being excluded explicitly what the views were. And I'll suggested a prices around how they might do that. That love that suggestion that we asked people what we wanted their community to be called, got me all kinds of hate mail from these bands. I'm not unfamiliar with getting hate mail from this man. So I have to say it's some. While I have many, many, many close friends, and many, many, many ex lovers who at least feel and who I love. Some of my best friends are these bins. They've been an ongoing critique for some lesbians, that bisexual woman money the picture, money it up. So while it wasn't surprising, and this particular occasion, for some [00:10:37] reason, it really bugged me, [00:10:38] it really hurts in a way that it doesn't always. And so I took time out for about a month to think about how to progress this. And I just got to the point of wanting to contact the groups that I'd identified as needing to be part of the conversation went out on the square, change the night. I put it up on Facebook, and I put it up on a website. And this was the explanation I gave. We've changed our tagline on the logo, it's more inclusive, the right thing to do. And a reference to our proud history to the response they got on Facebook to this was unanimously positive. They got more likes for that for this than they had done for anything else at that point. They were comments from people saying thank you, there were comments from people knowing that this was way more inclusive and they were comments from people saying it was the right thing to do. And it's interesting to me that that Facebook page now has nearly four times as many likes as a year ago. And FB fear is now explicitly for all of us, at least in terms of English words. So the moral of the story for me, I think the debates over Adam a square over the last 20 years she is HIV clearly shown the power lines in the queer community and fit the fact that these been some shift towards inclusion recently interesting. And I think it's no accident that that's been led by queer people much younger than I am the committee now is a group of much younger people. And it's going to be interesting to see how that naming plays out and other areas I'm really aware and really mindful that it's still operating within a parka framework. And without doubt through the lens of anti racism there's still plenty of battles to have around this around naming and what we call ourselves and plenty of power shifts still to occur. The dissonance of living and upset or and not using indigenous language of this place remains an important site for playing out in the replying at a pair relations in the queer community is elsewhere his his stance every day since 1840. In before I guess I want to finish by coming back to the original question of naming is always about politics and about power. Then for those of us that are interested in queer liberation for all of us, well and truly beyond the marriage equality, we need to keep paying attention to who we include and who we exclude and who has the power to draw those lines all the time. [00:13:18] Now Should we open this up? [00:13:22] And [00:13:24] before I start I just want to apologize if this talk seems a bit all over the place. I've been sick all week so it's not quite as together as I wanted it to be. And my name is Kara I'm Paki has this Jean de also able bodied. I acknowledge that I stand on colonized land as well on the ideas of woman in his queer that that hasn't always been the case, identified a strike perhaps more at a confusion, fear or with staff than anything else, until I was about 19 or 20. I think it's important to acknowledge that the way we choose to name ourselves is never set in stone. The amount of people I consider to be friends who came up to me when I was first in a relationship with a woman and said things like Oh, so you're a lesbian now provoked. Rather than using images of me waking up one morning and realizing that I've been wrong all these years. I also think quite a few of me, quite a few people expected me to cut my hair off stopped wearing skirts. And I've also been told several times that I don't look like a lesbian. Despite the fact I've never identified myself as one, not to mention the other problematic connotations of that statement. That's the other thing about naming. It often comes with a set of expectations, which I don't think necessarily is to how we feel in reality. Additionally, identities are not fixed, people in circumstances change, and these changes should be respected. I also think it's important we don't name other people, their affiliations, their politics or their gender identities. This again brings in the importance of taking the time to acknowledge that not everyone identifies with binary gender, and it was should not make us options about what pronouns people wish to be identified with. This brings me to my next point. I've seen a few times on Facebook in and other social spaces. People explain it why every woman in effect every person doesn't identify as a feminist. A quote that encapsulates this sort of thinking is by the author Dale speed it embraces follows feminism has fought no wars, it has killed no opponents at a syrup no concentration camps, staff, no enemies practice no protests. It's battles have been for education for the boat for better working conditions, the safety on the streets for childcare for social welfare for rent crisis centers, women's refuges reforms in the law, if someone says oh, I'm not a feminist, I asked why what's your problem in quote? So this is long seem like a bit of a broad generalization to me feminism as a movement has been very exclusionary towards a number of groups groups, including but not limited to, women of color, trends and gender queer people, people with disabilities and people working in the sex industry. People often broadly associated with the feminist movement such as Jermaine Greer, Kate and more rain Catherine MacKinnon and Sheila Jeffries, as some of the people espousing views which openly discriminate if not blatantly expressed hatred towards these groups. The endless transphobia of domain green Sheila Jeffries in particular is not worth repeating. Many of these feminists are also NT six work and contribute towards if not create policies that make people working in this industry more unsafe. While this may not equate to declaring war, in the traditional sense of the word, it is definitely a form of violence and cruelty that bears mentioning. Additionally, the brand of feminism spenders talking about fought for the right for white women to vote, not women more generally. It's also worth noting that the law reform submission may also be ones that benefit more privileged groups in our society. And I think marriage equality is a prime example of this is going to be talked about and many other panels queer people are fighting for survival. Yet we are told we should feel grateful that we can protect and this institution, an institution that still privileges a certain way of thinking about other ways. African American feminist Angela Davis has written about the way in which many movements including women's suffrage, often involved integrating people of color to achieve the ends. This is something that also happened in New Zealand and something I think we need to keep in mind when commemorating events such as women's suffrage, and looking at more contemporary examples of for example, LGBT movements, which should often be missing. The BT similar pattern of exclusion, as seen has been seen in New Zealand. In the feminist movement in the 1970s, as well as today, we MRT women were in continue to be excluded from or overlooked in mainstream feminist movements. This is not something I'm qualified to speak about, but also something I think we need to keep in mind and broad brush statements that assume or woman must identify as feminist. While I do identify as feminist, although I distance myself from all the aspects of some of the stuff I've been over, I could definitely understand why people directly affected by these exclusionary practices may want to distance themselves completely. This is another key point of what sorry, this is another key point I want to emphasize about naming and identify ourselves. None of us can assume to know someone's reasons for how they identify it's up to people to respect others decisions. And I'm now just going to move on to an example of an experience I had earlier on this year. I went to a conference held by an organization I didn't know much about and probably should have investigated more closely before applying to speak. The conference had a woman only policy, there was no expansion or clarity on this. I do know that men who tried to register were turned away. But beyond that, I don't know if the policy had been inquired about or tested at all. A couple of people I know had been to previous conferences and attempted to challenge the policy. I did witness a man being ejected from protect particular taught by an organizer at one stage during the course friends. I see intersection ality is a bit of a buzzword. But if there was ever a conference that was the opposite of intersection, oh, it was this one. I witnessed one mighty woman presenting on hottie issues the entire time I was there, there was a lack also of immigrant woman in people from a range of communities. The conference to be almost entirely made up of white woman disappointing for a conference with the title feminist futures. There was also a very clear age split, with most women being either over 60 or under 30. It seemed to be an entire one or two generations of women almost totally missing. I went to one particularly interesting talking which is being feminists said that she didn't understand why young people these days self identified with the term queer. When someone asked her why she thought this was at the end of the talk, she said that it was probably due to the fact that queer has lyst stigma attached to it then lesbian. [00:19:56] Kind of going back to this idea of oppression Olympics, I guess, with another person in the room suggested that it could be lesbian was a more gender specific term, it seemed to be brushed off. throughout the conference in myself and a scattering of other young people were approached by people who've been with the group for years, they were really happy to see more young faces coming through and told us we needed to be the ones taking over in the future. However, when myself and a handful of other people did to challenge this woman's only policy, we were told in no uncertain terms that we didn't understand feminism woman's only spaces, we weren't grateful enough for everything. second wave feminists are done for us. And they seem to be a view that was espoused by a couple of people on conversations that went on afterwards, that we only wanted the policy to change so that we could bring our feminist boyfriends, lovely them to a show move on a relationship with me. The comments we made about Jesus, like I was particularly not so much concerned about men being able to attend, because I can understand the value of women's only spaces. But the comments we made about gender queer people being at excluded as well as trans women, not feeling welcome, were ignored. And there was kind of a lot of discussion with a civil trans woman can come, it's fine. We're not going to stop trans women from coming. And it's like this, but you're not making people feel welcome. So I think that's a key thing to focus on. And while this is a particularly obvious example of the dangers of not allowing people to name themselves, I think it's something that can be broadened and thinking about social movements and events more generally. sleepwalkers, another example of a movement that while resonating for many women who were in are sick of being told they were to blame for your own victimization also excluded other people who do not feel that could reclaim this term in the same way, a conference like this as the same, we are lacking in several marginalized groups. And this is something we need to work to remedy and future. So I guess the main conclusion I'm trying to come to is this, people should be free to choose their identities. Although there are limits to this, I mean, appropriating identities that don't really belong to you as an exact with it. And we also need to avoid falling into the hole looking at only certain identities, or only certain identities being recognized and kind of the mainstream LGBT movement as an example of this without only fighting certain fights and excluding and pets, once that other people, things that other people struggle with. And my relatively limited experiences in in activism and social movements have taught me that we do need a wider discussion about this. And I'm hoping that one of sorts can have it here. [00:22:39] Thought first, I'd say that probably a lot of my thoughts are going to come from a social perspective over the last decade. So that's kind of a position I'll be taking, not only myself, I guess what I'm saying professionally. But I think from the world to have, I don't like the word clients. But that's the word that's mainly use. But I'd rather say the people, the farmer, that I've worked with in the past, and I wanted to talk from a literal point of view first, because I don't know if he's remember was about a year or two ago here. How about a minister of education before it up there? Why can't teachers just put out smarty kids names, literally their names properly? I was thinking, well, first of all, so like, if you haven't taken a to do class, you might not have an idea about that. So I think behind it, people don't have an intention to necessarily, but something so personal is someone's name. But when it comes to the name, and I think if people need a bit of a fair bit of support to get that naming, right, it won't come from them, you know, because they don't have the tools to get the name, right. So I think there's got to be a bit of give and take and every arena of naming, you are getting this wrong. When we think of discourse theory, a lot of people out there, I guess, progress in the understanding of how important definitions are and enlist their help with it. The other thing I saw recently was Holly Horry, and it was in the news as well. And I'm thinking amongst ourselves, we call who call ourselves Horry all the time. And I'll see fit to the light. If we got Pacifica friends, and we teach other tease each other about being Corey or freeze, or whatever. But I think it's that the I've been talking about energy this morning, you'll sign it without Ohio and understanding otherwise, you're saying in a derogatory, malicious fashion and I always bring it back to what is the intent of a quarter? Where are they coming from? Why are they saying that? Why are they using that particular word. And these the other old saying about it's not what people say, you know, in the domain of laymen, but how they say it. There's another important aspect to remember, in one of my early placements was at the Global Education Center as an aspiring youth worker, and what was really telling when we think of peer pressure and so forth, when you're trying to name yourself in those formative years and identity came out hidden above every other concern that youth has now what does that you know, tell us how important [00:25:32] identity naming have also [00:25:36] mentioned poem written down pronouns that I wanted to talk to because they had come up and I've always considered myself like I'm I'm a Horry grow from love and always will be always want to be I've always aspired to be like, the older ones are smart remember ability, and the split can t shirt and shorts want to use the break the news now, it's all right for I think me to bring about how I want to be known as because I so do not identify with the two gay I can't stand and the reason why each to their own have someone else wants to name themselves is there, but for me, it has connotations of the same. And there are certain aspects of the same what so I feel will never ever come close to describing who I want to be. And you get into this. I don't mean to be too but this this, you know, you're either top or bottom, then you must like name yourself one of those. Are you more macho Are you kind of came and I just thought I cannot stand. And it's just I think the stereotypical superficial nature of some aspects of our community. I just worried that that has an impact on social if you were just on the verge of wanting to come out or you're finding plucked up the courage to want to at least have a talk about it. In seeing that if you're not, are you I remember my early days. And it's like if you're not tall, blond, blue eyed, buffed enough, tanned enough, then I couldn't call myself thin. And in the end, I just gave up though I don't want to be, you know, I ended up like, I guess giving up the Battle of wanting to name myself as part of that world. But then I thought, well, I don't want to be part of that world anyway. So it was kind of a relief in the end that I didn't have to claim that name to be able to pay myself. And the other thing I've seen recently is take out my week, unless you're quoted all the center. And to wipe out my moon. It's like that's when it becomes political. Because they name you know, before Carlos. That's the It's beautiful. It's so much more 60. And then South Island, North Island. And it would have given I guess, a bit of a mama to the layman like, they keep talking about tourism and so forth. It what differentiates us, for me every other night. Well, Marty being the indigenous culture that's unique to us. So why can't we name things in that fish. But again, it became political, I guess. And also marriage equality. When that was going on. I acknowledged David and TB. And in part of the end, it was like they were wanting to narrow it down just it was purely just gay marriage. And it was a never ending [00:28:50] war that we had going on to try and keep [00:28:55] people's mind open I guess as to what we were really wanting to achieve. I think what I'd like to end with the most important aspect of Laming and R Kelly to just a simple is, do you prefer to be called move on? Or do you prefer to be called move and just that respectful approach as a hell of a lot of you know, when when it comes to meeting someone and wanting to get to know someone because I'm all about our community being inclusive, that makes a world of difference as well, just those little, you know, not needing a revolution, I think here, this is those little gains, but by the incremental, those subtle little things that we can do differently that I think would make a really big difference. [00:29:51] I need to point out that I mispronounced three names, your pic beta. [00:30:00] We are going to open the floor to questions I need to let you know that if you do not want to be recorded that what you need to say before you ask the question is I do not want to be recorded. And that will also be eliminated from all records. So I'll open the floor. Is there any questions for the panel? Anyone want to contribute to the discussion? [00:30:25] Or contributions? finances those questions? Nice place. [00:30:34] So I'm from Hamilton. [00:30:38] One thing we've been talking about recently and kind of a black for is that we use queer now night. We were at BK out in Brooklyn. And we had a trans woman come up to us. And basically we were past the streets for us. And we've had a lot of trouble with timing applications. Perfect that we are now nine direction couple, many tagline saying that we square that is it's an umbrella term for our community because we our group is so diverse is amazing. And like I don't know if I'm really good not been about a year now. And I'm on the committee and I can move things forward. But I don't know if it's if it's a new thing with this. Does anyone else find that that term is as looked down by other other people like what's the what's the government? [00:31:29] I don't understand why people have such an issue. [00:31:32] There's so many things going on with it. Get your scenario, I think, you know, I think Queer as a consistent theme. I think for people my age and older we can remember it being used and incredibly hateful words. And it's contested because it's more inclusive. So you know, in it, that control that that kind of that sense of opening up gay and lesbian space to people down identifies gay and lesbian as really contested. [00:31:56] Here, I was gonna [00:31:57] say something along those lines to like a is a term that is contested on number of really valid girls, as well as center hits. Yeah. So I think it's important to think about the fact that, you know, some people may not want to get ideas queer in this. [00:32:18] And I think as well, I guess, for me when it actually gets in 56 and beautiful stuff about this clip, this is when it's being used as a weird to actively exclude gender diversity. And that's what you're doing it into a pattern. That's really problematic. And I guess that's why I opened by talking about the fact that I'm going to use the word in this way here. It's all the names we use for ourselves, our boundaries, we need to keep defining them and redefining them all the time, if we want to be clear that we may. [00:32:49] Just briefly and that's I mean, obviously, with the career ranges, we call ourselves the queer Avengers, and there was a conversation about that. But that's also why we chose to make this conference gender and sexual diversity just because bracingly it was coming up the main people when when I didn't find with Quinn so you know, even though you know, you know, even a thing. Yeah. So So I mean, that's, that's definitely something that's been coming up a lot. But you [00:33:12] know, I have let's see, there is a lot of the content of this person's please turn around the word queer, but the approach, you know, you can't Why would you poach a kindred spirit organization? And basically, does the Minutemen and you know, we have concerns, that's fine. Why can't we have a whole year around those concerns and see what comes out of it, but to just, you know, a tank, you know, and that's why I keep saying the worst form of discrimination is amongst their own alone. I still, personally say that, and that's why a real issue with the approach taken it all on the approach, you know, she took another approach, you wouldn't have felt, you know, Ted, and she might have gained some traction. But [00:34:03] my name's from Hyman. And I'll stop his name in the way that the pen did is [00:34:10] I identify still, as a lesbian feminist. And as a sometime Sam yummy Jewish lesbian feminist economist, as far as I know. [00:34:23] I also identify as pretty luckily still able bodied at 75 being [00:34:31] secretary. [00:34:36] No longer active, thanks to those of us who are lucky enough to be healthy and not still not have that feel old, social able, but will also white and sort of party hard, British. [00:34:52] And know and [00:34:56] have had class and education privilege, despite all the [00:35:01] ethnic privilege, [00:35:04] all those things. [00:35:07] I, I feel a bit nervous during the day, which is amusing because I [00:35:13] thought, well, this because I suppose I feel defensive. I wanted to respond to some of the things. First two panels on the first thing I want to do is now nothing. I think, if I had been car, I would have known that conferences of WS a conference in this association, there's nothing if it was, obviously we [00:35:34] wouldn't put the bone density [00:35:36] will speak slightly differently. We will have to have experiences, but I don't think it's far off what you said about it. [00:35:46] As far as what 70 things about 70% first, and first, I think that was very interesting, right. And I didn't know the whole [00:35:57] history history before I do. And I think the final resolution is great. But most writing our history when it says queer, since those [00:36:10] days, it's interesting that I am [00:36:14] trying to speak to the existence of the fears. But yeah, [00:36:20] important history of a black history, it was so excited, what's happening in, in all sorts of circles, in terms of more inclusive, and so on, I don't identify as lesbian, but I'm perfectly happy to be thought of going out and sexual queer. And it feels all those names are fine, as well, as far as I'm concerned. But my personal identity is Lizzie, I'm involved in another small cast standard in lesbian radio, which still exists, it's been going weekly for 30 years. And I'm interested in managing to do that, and was a gay male programming program as well was a Gay Men's only, that only lasted a few years. And we have also got, we want to keep that name. And for practical reasons, we need to keep that leg founded by liftoff, non stop Charitable Trust lesbians funded by a couple calls [00:37:17] will be offering out in there that from the 70s and 80s. [00:37:24] Welcome very much to the community. And actually, we're very much part of the boredom of gay lesbian community as well. And [00:37:32] we need to balance out the preferences and what we are, we are a lesbian program, but we are now whereas we used to worry about whether we played on you guys be losing and what does that mean? Now we play all the musical gay music, queer music that anybody wants to play. And we publicize a lot of stuff about the whole queer community, even though we're predominantly and lesbian program, and mostly people identify, we probably have had many, many, many the lesson. And so the I'm happy that sort of trying to be more into stocks, because he realizes Jen's happening, or why but I think it's important to recognize the history in both areas, I, I can unpack some of the people who may be attacks of saying, you know, exclusion rate, both in the USA, and in this community, I'm trying to point out things that the more we try, I want things to get much more inclusive. But I also recall the history of American feminism started in the same way with relapses relax, and pushing boundaries. But this, officially, this has been fabulous. [00:39:01] And [00:39:03] we were perfect. And I don't think we were quite as exclusionary on ethnic stuff. And we're unaware as people that are part of some binary back in remember back discussions, there was a lot of that going up talk about that going on, like the beginning. But certainly people reflect their own backgrounds and the core of him come together, it takes a while before, like, a pushed into other things. But I sometimes think some of the writing about that period is much more convincing among favorites of the groups and actually doing great work and work in the market. It really reflects reality. But I am I think, you know, there are some of us who still I was interested that power that you said performance space, you know, government space, where the significance of that was the beginning of the 70s and 80s was that practical, academic writing space academic [00:40:09] journey, part of it says just start with lots of people not being very happy. Because it's more of an epidemic. And you know, you can't in universities or politics or in those institutions, have the teams in place. I shouldn't go to a lot of stuff, but I just wanted to just put some of that historical perspective on it. Why, you know, I think we've got to be open to, to to change that. We've also got to keep the politics going. Some of us are opposed to marriage equality, because feminism in feminism approach to marriage thought marriage was lousy for women. And so [00:40:47] there's all sorts of things and the exclusive couple of them is not put on. Yeah, [00:40:58] I'm [00:40:59] ready to go. [00:41:02] But I'm sure that any of the panelists will be discussing the [00:41:07] ones that you're changing. Thank you [00:41:08] all very much [00:41:11] and stick with them.

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