Session 2 - Beyond conference
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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the queer of inches and pride and see a.com [00:00:07] So welcome to the access, disability discussion. [00:00:12] Fabulous [00:00:13] panelists, [00:00:15] and the is gender queer, artistic, and otherwise, we are to execute activist and writer [00:00:23] and Dr. Dre is an expert on this [00:00:27] is not super relevant, anything she will be talking about. But she has plenty of other opinions to share. So I'll hand over to them. [00:00:36] Hi, I'm Esther, I'm, [00:00:40] I'm trying sort of link the same, we're driving to this talk about sexuality. It's always nice to like sex, [00:00:52] and gender and stuff like that. Um, so the first point I was going to make I scribbled this down this morning, why my coffee was trying to eat off my flight and like, drag my arm down last turn, turn tape I This was over my computer. That's very stressful. But first thing is, why is he so important. Because when you have mobility issues like I do, and you get to a place, and you got to what you think is the disk and then like, I go down there tonight, and the only place you can find is like a door, the needle orphans is like got stairs, right in front of it. And it's quite stressful, and during our sons, and it makes you super late, and not because you went back to sleep after your puppy workout. [00:01:44] Um, so yeah, and you know, access is important. Because [00:01:52] if, if people don't have access to my conference page, and I think that participating in life, and and society is really important. [00:02:04] You know, being able to do things with your life, and that was what I talked about. [00:02:10] And my studies, also looking at driving and how that enabled participation, but really, it's just about, you know, the means what even means you have need, or type of getting to do what you want to need to do with your life. And also, I think this is really important, and activist groups for solidarity reasons. Because you have to think about basically what it means is like, you have to think about how you're exploiting. And by not making sure things are accessible or not asking happens to be accessible, or not communicating options, and not like being wrong about how you provide it and that kind of stuff. And so I think that stuff is really important, but when I say x is a religious name, the ability to join in anything. And, you know, there are lots of ways in which access is really complicated. And, you know, it's not just about that, during our studios, that it's particularly useful for me, because people have really different [00:03:18] you know, friends that they need for the world's Big sis about, and for [00:03:24] people here, most people may lack some form of transport, and they need [00:03:32] to have doors rather than, like, kept doors to get through. And if you're using a wheelchair, or mentally scalar, you made a entrance way bigger than the cage door, and maybe bigger than a normal door to get through and that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's just kind of it's really complicated. It's, and it also, I mean, in my experiences with my ability, physical stuff, and access, but there are lots of other ways that people need access. And there are issues of like, kind of sensory things. And they're, you know, like, they're actually sort of, you know, people who maybe can't read, and they signs with pictures on them. And they may, they may, or they might need somebody to come with them. So there's so many, there's so many ways in which you can make something accessible. And, you know, the left actually writing a list at the moment about how to make government, like government like phones, it's useful. And it's really long to really long guys. So it's quite complicated, but I think a really important thing still is fake fake data and communicate what I'm, like, find out from people, what they're required to participate in something. And you know, what, because people are, like, you know, if people, if the people that you know, and you're trying to get along to stuff, then people usually pretty happy to just feel like, I can you can, you know, is there anything in particular, that is what they use for that kind of stuff? And for the hippie to just say, yeah, I mean, that kind of thing. I was going to talk generally about my experience of data silos and activism. And then I was going to talk a little bit about cleanness, but I know that last time to message so [00:05:39] that's also new to us to do. [00:05:43] So my experience of [00:05:47] having arthritis and stuff is [00:05:53] sometimes I'm just like, I sort of have to deal with issues of lightheartedness. And kind of, or Hi, you know, what it was going on? So there's that kind of stuff that might kind of main that. [00:06:08] I'm less motivated. Also, maybe I'm just a [00:06:11] person who likes lying around and watching TV as well. But you know, like, there are issues that some people are going to deal with tightness or Sir, I'm perfect depression issues. And I'm really shy actually in groups, which is sort of often discourages me from like, [00:06:31] being an activist groups, because I'm quite shy, I don't know. [00:06:38] So it's probably gonna be quite, I'm quite emotional today. And I've got a headache. [00:06:46] I'm tired. But anyway, I'm quite shy, because I'm often really gone towards it. When I meet people, I don't know if they're gonna be, you know, tickets are not so, you know, there's so many times them, [00:07:02] like, gone to places and people are just saying, you know, fucked up things to me, or, you know, I'm trying to, like, I can ask you anything, that you're probably in good life, and certainly my business, that kind of stuff. [00:07:19] Yeah, so, there's the issue of being shy. So usually, with small groups of people or people I know, like, already decided that I'm okay. And I already know that they open the deck somewhere. Quite a friendly extroverted person. And yeah, here, any groups reluctant to join it will say this often kind of like issues from embarrassment, about, like, good, I can participate and stuff. And that can mean like, I'm people know, the beginning of the year about the Larkin famous clip from that, like, XS, and all that kind of stuff, and was a great drummer. Um, but like, a lot of people touch that kind of, you know, or as accessible. And as it is about when you have assistance and that kind of thing. And it's like, well, he said, No, and I've kind of always had to kind of make these decisions about, do I want to do something enough to have the embarrassment of being like, carried upstairs, or, you know, carried his things and lifted and all this kind of stuff that I thought, Why don't because it's embarrassing, and it's really out there, and it's sometimes painful to be lifted. And, you know, it's like, you're being picked up by somebody you possibly don't know, because it the biggest person who's willing to like, lift you and that kind of stuff. Um, so you know what? To say that I don't do it. There's some places where I'm like, it is worth it to me, because I really like calling out to music. And they're basically like, no, like Cisco videos. [00:09:12] They're very few, they're successful. And so sometimes, I'm kind of like, [00:09:17] I'm not gonna, like, keep up the opportunity to like, do stuff, because it's embarrassing, painful, and, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, [00:09:29] yeah. [00:09:32] So, does that kind of expensive. [00:09:41] I'm, like, kind of joining in and participating and having access to the world outside my very peaceful house. So yeah, um, I think it's a really interesting thing that somebody said to me the other day that a lot of children heard it for her hearing it assume that I'm out of it. Because I'm none of the adults around them. If your parents already, and I was kind of like, what, that's really weird and said, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's totally high risk. My life when I was a kid, you know, like, you think that where you want to be when you're no. [00:10:27] None of those things were being disabled, you know. [00:10:33] And I think that's kind of part of the lack of access to the world. And I can role models. And actually, if you don't make sure access with me put it in, you don't see people in the community. And a lot of times, I don't see the same people. And obviously, not all the same people maybe look disabled or anything like that. [00:11:00] Yeah, like this. Not a lot of people that you say, Okay. [00:11:05] If the things that, you know, as an adult, and I still see that, you know, [00:11:12] yeah, so some of the issues of XS kind of as well. [00:11:21] I was just going to talk a little bit, [00:11:25] cleanness and disability. [00:11:33] I'm not sure. I kind of think what some people actually think I'm quiet, but I don't. I don't associate dean felt like that. [00:11:41] But I kind of like I have a lot of [00:11:47] I feel like I speak to cleaners, but I understand and have empathy. [00:11:53] In terms of lack. And I'm not going to say because I know that some people talk about, I'm having, like a body within pmms or anything like that. It's like this is kind of like this, some people took that, that they that their bodies, or did you know the sexuality has been equated? Because it's disabled? And I'm not that surprised. Appropriate? Um, but are there? Yeah, I don't know if it's appropriate. And I don't know if I would say that my Kindle or my sexuality already that has been cleared, but it's very much thing other and made strange, and yeah, maybe queer. And though I'm kind of old fashioned since the words, and it's very much being made marginalized. And it's very much been made and acceptable. And I think that, yeah, like how I respond to gender and sexuality stuff, as maybe there's some similarities, like, I think a lot of people who have physically impaired but it [00:13:16] can often be seen, as I'm [00:13:23] often seen as a sick show, you know, I actually, um, a lot of disabled bodies are not the same as it might not have been as desirable and that kind of stuff. Which isn't to say that, I mean, obviously, some disabled people I see. Sure. And some people who were disabled don't identify the agenda. But I think that I've often kind of reacted to, like, kind of agenda stuff by I mean, I've been on today, but there's quite a lot of joking about Palin currencies, for short skirts and stuff like that. And, and I think it's dead part of thing is like, a bit of a fat kid, like, you know, I do want to be seen is fit now, and sexual, and pets. So it's something that I kind of push back against, and I sorry, I do this a reaction to that. And I very much understand, or I very much identify with the ideas of like passing, and in some ways coming up, because I always kind of wanted to, I was always really, like, terrified and stressed out when people kind of commented on my body because it was parts, you know, and and I think I'm a lot less concerned of passing than my east. And it's taken me quite a long time to [00:15:00] wants to [00:15:03] Fret not today, something that I'm trying to fight. But even though I can't hide, you know, like those ways, like, I will do everything I could to try. So that people didn't notice, but of course it is. You know? [00:15:18] Yes, sir. [00:15:23] I'm not sure. What is that that? Isn't Christian, sorry, for the [00:15:33] Easter? Do you actually spend much time connecting with other people online through three new groups or just [00:15:41] curious what groups? [00:15:44] Well, either [00:15:46] groups, or [00:15:48] disability groups, or just social groups that we're all chasing? The reason why I ask is a friend of mine, who has cerebral palsy and is non verbal, he is really active on the inside, because connecting up with with other people. [00:16:05] It makes them a very lofty plans that are not as friendly as they were online. And let's just move on to our next show. [00:16:13] Why spend a lot of time on the internet, downloading TV. [00:16:22] And [00:16:24] I have a lot of friends, that's not really the issue. [00:16:28] I spent [00:16:32] 90% of my time with feminists, you know, that smart issue for me? [00:16:40] And I don't think that's an acceptable solution. No, not at all. And a lot of people do talk about that it's very important for several people to be online. But actually, I kind of have a problem with that effects, like, huge problem with that. That's why we don't need to make the rest of the world accessible, because, well, we should just shove because they were people in front of computers, and they're like, you have internet access. So therefore, we don't need to bother with the rest of the world. And I think that a lot of people develop friendships, and relationships and communities through participating in and not the online communities and communities. But I'm not no one wants to have the communities just be online. And tonight, and I don't really like me. Yeah, we might wrap up actually, so many before I have community, like, you know, kind of relationships with them and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah, and I think that thing exploded from a lot of work and a lot of social activities, a lot of that stuff, bad [00:18:05] thing, I want to physically big places into band spaces that are [00:18:10] accessible, and everything and accessible in lots of ways, not just other places. [00:18:16] socially acceptable. And yeah. [00:18:27] I'm just a little conscious of time. So I wonder if maybe, and you want to speak next, and we can push a bit. [00:18:34] Okay, I read something. [00:18:38] So I'm going to talk, mostly personal experience here and sort of about the emergence of both my autistic and queer identities. And I'm using, like labels complicated, I'm using autistic to include a whole range of diagnoses, sort of information processing, physical movement, how I think how my senses work, and so on, and, and queer, I'm talking about both sexual orientation and gender identity. And, you know, I was thinking back when I wrote this, and just remembering as a really small child, having the sense that I need to hide who I was, and not knowing what I needed to hide, so I had everything. And just notice it was wrong. And with the benefit of hindsight, I know that the ways I had to hide related both to being queer and being autistic, and then I was doing some reading for this talk. And one thing I discovered that I didn't know was that much of the therapy and normalize an autistic children grew out of that, and normalizing gender non conforming children. And I avoided such practices, luckily, but sort of the jewel experiences of being out of sync with and marginalized in the world I lived in, but meant that my artistic and queer experiences were very much tied together before I could identify either one of them. And as a child, sort of the one bloom of gender non conforming possibilities that I had was that of a tomboy. And that's too excited me and then was really quickly closed off to me, I realized I was physically unable to climb a tree is the sensation of mob Get away from me. I was too anxious to go off and get lost. But then the stereotyped femininity that was expected to come naturally to me was also an obtainable. I still can't apply lipstick, right? [00:20:38] trying to catch up, and, you know, social roles of teenage gossip. [00:20:44] And absolutely, someone can be feminine or masculine irrespective of whether the stereotyped activities are possible or even desirable for them. And I think one thing the queer community needs to be really aware of in terms of accessibility is how much we link identity and membership with appearance and clothing, and so on, when these can be an accessible for all kinds of reasons. But also, this exclusion from both masculinity and femininity has been really key for me in the formation of my gender identity. And it's something which is often ignored and narratives that often come back to, you know, this was an eight from birth. I've always struggled with the idea that gender identity is some inherent truth that just needs to be allowed to emerge. Of course, it is for some people, but for me, it's more complex and ongoing negotiation with the society environment, I 11. And reading and learning about disability was really important and understanding how that could work. And another thing I've realized, is this, this huge correlation between autistic people, particularly female assigned at birth people, and those who don't fit comfortably on the agenda, binary, a, who attracted to multiple genders, or who are a section, there's lots of theory about why that might be a must fit really offensive. But that's beside the point. I think the correlation is there. And you know, I've had conversations with these people over and over again, who would never see themselves as part of gender diverse or queer communities. And some of that comes back to access in a straightforward sense, the tendency for queer events to be centered around noisy bars, for example, or that we can be marginalized by people wanting to prove that they're good, normal queers, okay. Anyway. [00:22:37] And it's also because people, [00:22:42] people often see their gender identity. The people I'm talking about often see their gender identity or sexuality, as being so intrinsically related to or even a facet of being autistic, that they don't find a space for that narrative, and queer and gender diverse spices. And this isn't my experience or perspective, but it's also something I relate to a little more, I'm trying to sort of learn more about this and get my head around it. And I think at the heart of it, we need to be really open to the fact that even for people working on thinking about gender and sexual diversity issues, we can always come [00:23:20] in and say, [00:23:24] and I've also been coming across a word that's been increasingly used, which is neuro queer, and one, one blogger described it as meaning I approach my autism like I approach my gayness. And I was in the slightly odd position of being involved in queer activism before I really came to grips with being queer or being autistic. And although I didn't escape the usual model of self hatred, I dealt with that it gave me a lot of tools to understand what and I was looking at it in the context of marginalized identities and the history of political response is to oppression rather than simply an individual experience. And when comparisons are used as a blunt tool to make a point of often really problematic a couple of years ago, within basically the same week, I went to a queer activist meeting where people started saying that people wouldn't be allowed to get away with treating disabled people like this. So why are they treating gay people like this? week or so later, I went to a meeting of an autistic group where someone said, we need to get equality like all the gays are done. Just don't do that shit. But I think there's, you know, I think there are lots of conversations I'd really like to see happening. I'm thinking about coming out and the limitations of coming out narratives about passing for normal weather normally straight or sis General, your typical about treatment aimed at normalization, and medicalization, I'm thinking in particular date debates going on at the moment about whether autism should be in the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, psycho Bible thing. And the conflict between not seeing it as a medical disorder, but needing to present it as such in order to secure access to various resources, and things about Eurasia from history, and the experience and expectation of separate legs with family or just a few of the things that stick out in my head. Um, I just like to say, obviously, that was very much from personal experience, and I can only talk so fast, I'm really open to sort of experience of how people know, witness and whatever experiences of disability in the comments. Thank you. [00:25:43] Anybody have any questions for our panelists? Today, [00:25:56] disclosure, you know, I am, I'm here in studio, you know, the whole range of, you know, no boundaries, sort of always sort of asking sometimes really good questions. [00:26:09] is [00:26:11] both Esther and Andy talking about some of the isolated challenges, which I think, you know, really, really important. But I just wondered if either both of you have got sort of ideas about, you know, yes, we want to change the title of champion structures and everything else, but are the things that can help to, to support our them, you know, I racing away And so yeah, the signposting to DC was better than the match, middle quit, we should have had two things for like, you know, how I'm juggling. But my friend down in Christchurch was a young gay guy who was really interested in dating, who meets up with people online. And then 16 seats always coach, sometimes they say, oh, you're listening to that nightclub, because it's really good for that, Hello, I'm in a wheelchair, you're going to carry the wheelchair up sort of thing. And he does get people to do that. But that's like, you know, really difficult. But that's the support the friends do to help them get to places that we can do things and try and stop people from putting trips on his communication tray and things like that. But like that, you know, helping somebody to get to a space. [00:27:22] Other other things [00:27:23] you can think of that might be helpful to, you know, overcome all the social media that we hadn't over your much, but let's start you. [00:27:32] Yeah, I mean, but that's not going to apply to [00:27:39] public social places. Why? [00:27:45] Because they don't have any obligation to be accessible. [00:27:50] They don't have any elevation to [00:27:54] unless it's like a new boat thing. And then there's some standards by the same, it's a pretty basic. I [00:28:08] think, I'm not quite sure. I'm not quite sure, again, how you worded it, but I guess my initial premise, No, there's nothing, that I maybe I have incredibly good friends and her do things to make things easier for me and two main that I can be included and stuff. But actually, that's not the point at all. I mean, of course, it's awesome. And I love my friends, you know, incredibly important to me. But actually, the problem is not [00:28:43] needing support friends, because not everyone actually [00:28:49] likes to support a friend, you know, even if you've got friends, they might be clueless, and just, you know, going to get all that kind of stuff. But the problem is not. I think personal support is incredibly important as a survival strategy. But it's not going to change anything, you have to change things on a societal level. [00:29:13] So you talking more event organizers? What should event [00:29:17] organizers be doing? [00:29:19] activism spaces, and and, like, if a group of people say, Hey, we don't want the [00:29:25] government to my national hand, what they do is they start connecting those crazy sort of, you know, campaigns doing things, if it's something like a bar in court, the place is just to speak for to two young women sort of cussing, and, you know, there's two places or, you know, it's like, what, what are the best avenues to actually, you know, organize together around sort of issues. And, you know, that is one of the reasons why students do this thing and through so much, because, you know, it is that possible way, but that it might not be the experience. So, [00:30:04] I mean, like, you know, things change by [00:30:19] like, like any kind of actress thing, you know, people disabled, and it's not always gonna work, and it's not always gonna get attention. And it's not always gonna change anything, but, you know, they still people still kind of join in and they go, Yeah, what do we need and, and that kind of stuff, you know, like, it's the same as any other kind of [00:30:41] paperwork, and you need support any solidarity between groups and [00:30:47] disability organizations in Israel. And by [00:30:54] the time when I was starting out in the 70s, and 80s, I'm heaven. Like, showing lots of solidarity to, like, create communities, and like, putting heaps of support behind like, the, like, getting rid of the like, you know, they're like, 1986, conceptual artwork, they pay for support private, you know, because they're like, the whole thing of like, liberation for one person pic was going to help, you know, like, it's important. And also, of course, there are like gay disabled people that maybe want to do six, but okay, disabled people. But yeah, and then, Mike, that's the same as any kind of activism, you know, you just do you think work about issues that are important, and you try and get people to support you and you try to get awareness you try and make change. [00:31:58] I'm going to question and such when the more of an observation you pretty much spoke to it really is a solidarity and the connections that we can make between so many marginalization, you know, aspects of life, and it's quite incredible when you actually sit down and really give it some thought that that is the answer to everything is a solidarity and working together. And if every marginalized, personal together would probably be at everybody. You know, so yes, anyone else got any thoughts or want to share or other things? You want a second opinion? Maybe we should probably wrap up with a chicken with you, too. because no one's got anything pushing they want to raise? So yes, this is just actually, like last year upwards. [00:32:46] But also, [00:32:47] it's a supposed to be this year, and [00:32:51] I could get a copy of the list of things. [00:32:55] Yeah, yes. Yeah, sure. Yeah, this was so [00:33:02] it's gonna be on the last year passwords, that [00:33:05] I think should be a fantastic step towards activism is to make sure that when you finish with that list, that we make sure that we pressure every government department to make sure they're hearing to [00:33:16] move people to demand that those sort of the things [00:33:23] happening for sure, like the web accessibility is kind of like the accessibility standards come in. And all main pages and contact pages are all government websites. So websites, mistakes are going to have to be with accessible by July next year. So and then, within three days, every page of every website, run by interstate six, as finish favorite excuse about Hi. [00:34:01] Within Cisco, it means [00:34:04] that we have such as intuitive as possible to minimize mistakes. And they have to be like any kind of verbal things, like if you've got to, or if you've got kind of graphs, then they have to have descriptions and to make them if you've got somebody talking to a person doing sign language, or and you've had like heaps and heaps of different methods that people can understand the content. And also, you have to be able to use the website without using a mouse keyboard at all, if be able to do it all by keyboard and stuff like that. Yeah, so those are the kind of technical things and then it just has to be as kind of hard to make mistakes as possible. And it's easy to like, go back and start again. And, like, if you've got websites that had time limits on them, they have to be able to be like extended really easily. And that kind of stuff so that people are doing nature, they start like slowly. Yeah. So that's one way that you can make that easier is [00:35:08] in the kitchen, those websites sort of tested by people with different types of challenges. So for example, if you're fishing with a large news, software that can read out a new page HA can't read an image, but they might be description, but [00:35:28] not having many pictures, but the [00:35:36] presentations. [00:35:38] Alright, cool. I'm sorry. [00:35:47] I was just lost, like, sense of the last [00:35:57] as a woman, physical. [00:36:02] Okay, for this wasn't clearly [00:36:03] accessible. No, [00:36:06] no, no. No, was it through payments and [00:36:12] some lending and payments? And so thanks back. [00:36:19] Yeah, but I mean, easy rate takes large prints takes [00:36:26] pictures, but like, it's basically today, everything [00:36:31] you know, compatible on Friday was [00:36:36] in a beautiful moment of irony, the submissions on the inquiry into the accessibility of Parliament required you to put a phone number in before you could make a submission. Yeah. [00:36:50] Lots and lots of government documents are like you can't use don't use PDFs if you want them to be successful, or use PDFs, but make them like, heaven. I teach go Word document, because I'm programs that rate document for people with visual impairments and can't do stuff like that. So there's lots of different technical stuff, but it's also a bad attitude and all stuff. [00:37:21] All right, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, [00:37:26] it's basically like, Don't talk down to people done. Don't look at somebody, attendant Kara, if you're supposed to be communicate with them, make eye contact with the person you're supposed to be communicating. [00:37:42] I'm trying to make sure that makes it really clear, that sort of stuff. I'm [00:37:49] trying really hard. [00:37:50] Like, it's basically like, courteous, courteous interactions with human being. [00:37:59] I don't think I going to get the human beings and [00:38:03] let people know where the toilets are, you know, they think, ah, all this is actually just some common courtesy. And it's quite yet as complicated thing. That's really common courtesy to do like, this is where the toilets are. And and if you can't hear me say that, then I will or if you can't see it, I will take you to it. You know, that's just curious. And that's a really big deal. You know, so yeah, stuff like that. [00:38:34] And it's something that I think [00:38:38] when you guys start political engagement, new building on the things are trying to find out what the accessibility is tonight in 1000. It was a an accessible toilet that was locked up and nobody knew the culture because they had to use it. So I was thinking, Oh, when people come to visit, [00:38:55] having a tough time with, you know, yeah. [00:39:01] walk up and down all the floors of the building. [00:39:08] Right. Please join me in thanking
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