Session 14 - Beyond conference

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you [00:00:02] by the queer of inches and privacy [00:00:07] Welcome everyone to this session on healthcare, housing and schools fighting for survival fighting for more. The prompt for this session is we thought a long way to go help housing school and other institutions marginalized gender and sexual minorities, among with other oppressed groups for discussion on how to transform these institutions need of our needs. And our panelists today are Cassie Hartman, who is a socialist activists working in youth healthcare. Calvin, who holds a PhD from PW rather she's a hate speech against LGBT communities and was the first man to be awarded a PhD in gender studies. He is working at newseum process collective since 1999. Work with male sex workers as well as policy and how that affects sex workers. Merv is from living being a Nikita and mo since he is a rainbow Wellington, board member and treasurer of the body and tuck top treasures being Martina Topley. saara Frazier's activists, queer women proudly left, kindly left and not necessarily in that order, who is who works in public housing research. And Jim is from Liverpool and Newcastle upon Tyne and emigrated to New Zealand in 2002. front of the window security partner in Jim is a little bit retired, but works on oral history being a teacher and a few other things, any tweets, under preaching account, presumably, economics and set for sale. So I think we'll possibly move down the panel, and then we'll open it up for discussion. And so [00:01:58] everyone, thanks for coming today. It's really fantastic to be here and speaking with some really amazing people and having really amazing people in the audience listening as well, of course, like to acknowledge the funny that we're in today. And I'm just really excited to be here and just want to acknowledge the people that have gone before us. And we've got some here on the wall as well. And just want to know that this is a really important space to be in. And I'm really excited to be standing here and be a part of it. So I'm a queer youth advocate. And I'm working in the youth health sector at the moment. And I'm going to be speaking a little bit least from my personal experience, and going to be talking a little bit more about what I think, from what I've noticed some of the issues facing queer young people today, and what can really be done about it from an activist perspective, it's something that I'm really interested and passionate about. So um, so yeah, that's what I'm going to be talking about. So I'm going to use the word queer tonight, I just I know that it's not for everyone, I'm doing the disclaimer, but I'm going to be your it just as a quick way, because I don't know how long this is going to take someone to quicken it in some way. I'm going to be using it to describe to find people who are on a range of sexual in gender diversity. So it's not just sexuality in this case, unless I specify otherwise, if that makes sense. But yes, I'm just go from there. So the general picture of queer young people, basically, the this new research has come out from the youth 2000 surveys. So last year, and for the first time, they've actually done some research about how many young people are non says or, or identifying as transgender, which is amazing. And the findings actually show that 1% of us right now identify as transgender, and what that means by them is that they're either trans Queen, fat or thin a factor YEA, either tonight, or gender queer. So that's 1%. And then there's also 3%, permanent, not so sure. So we're talking about 4%, who are not somewhere on the gender spectrum, that is, as it says, which I think is really awesome that we have this kind of research in terms of sexuality, about 3%, no, sorry, 4% are attracted to the same or both sexes, as according to the research, and 4%, I'm not sure or attracted to neither six. So for including a six year old, that's about 8% of young people who are, who are identifying as queer in some form. So that's kind of where we are as a basis. And I think that's really useful. The year 2000 survey from 2007, because a more in depth discussion hasn't really been released yet, regarding the last year, at least, but it shows the queer young people are facing greater difficulties in accessing healthcare, the more likely to be bullied. Third, an increased risk of alcohol hole in drug abuse, and these higher rates of depression, suicide and self harm. So I'm kind of saying things that people might be quite aware of, otherwise, you probably wouldn't be here, but just kind of spelling it out. And I think this is really reflected in terms of my own work as a as a queer worker, with young people. And they're coming to terms of sexuality, isolation from peers and from families, depression, suicide and homelessness are actually both things that we've been facing. So yeah, um, so that's kind of a bit of a picture about how it's looking at the moment. And I kind of want to start off with a, like a quote, by Paulo fear. And we're kind of I want to talk about the education system, because I've asked to talk about schools here. So obviously, school is just one part of the queer young person experience. But I think it's a really integral part. Because we basically have to pay via until we're 18, or so. So to be a bit younger, but it's expected that you're there and being part of IT systems. So how should How should that system look while people are there. So I've got this quote here. And sorry, it's kind of dense, but I think it's quite important. So saying, education either functions as an instrument, which is used to facilitate integration of the younger generation, and to the logic of the present system, and bring about conform conformity, or it becomes the practice of freedom, the means of what by which people critically and creatively engage with reality, and discover how to participate in the transformation of the world. So we're talking about two separate concepts here. And I think the education system, as we look at it right now is probably more in the form of one, we're teaching young people how to how to work within the logic and within the structures that are already in place and expecting people to conform along the way, and not really Christian and change. [00:06:53] And that logic at the moment is saying that queer young people aren't really important on the agenda. They're not Julie via, not really recognized. So I had a bit of a chat with one of my friends hose Ministry of Education, who said, I'm going to call them the government knock at the moment. And basically, I kind of say to them, because I'm an activist, and I'm a queer youth worker. And sometimes I don't really have any idea what's going on with government. And I, I kind of like that, because I'm, like, always doing stuff wrong. But I wanted to actually check my fixed first, and look with the one that was the case. And this person did say, actually, that quit and visibility is the biggest issue facing queers and the education system. So we're talking about pretty much very basic, basic stuff that at the moment, these shows at issues quite young people's issues are just not on the agenda, quite invisible. And it's something that we all kind of know already. But from the narc, SoCal, that's been sort of, in terms of the educator, I'm just going to talk a little bit about what is what are some of the issues that I think are coming up. And this is from my perspective, and I'm aware of this, there's a range. And so at the moment is it happens to be Rossum quick youth organizations who are teaching education programs and schools, and doing professional development workshops within organizations. So these aren't compulsory, basically, we, we source the funding ourselves, and we take care of most of it all on our own, and schools don't have to leave us and so we only work with the ones we've built relationships with. And because as we all know, that we learned the most from the hidden curriculum, it's really problematic when we have a whole however many years from age five to 18, when actually most of us probably have never heard the word queer, lesbian, gay, transgender, from a teacher or within the curriculum, unlike the actual curriculum. And I think that's, that's a real concern. So, so at the moment, we go in, and we teach education, and it's really great because we get to speak with, we get to speak to the young people in the room who may be queer or Christian at some point in their life. And we also get to talk to the teachers and to the peers about what you can do to be able to support these people if they do come out. So kind of has a two way purpose. And it's, it's, it's a really positive, amazing experience. It just sucks that we're quite underfunded and not taken seriously enough to be able to be living in the first place. So schools are run pretty independently. And often the main interest, as they put it, at least as keeping the parents happy, that's the main stakeholder most of the time, parents come back and they're complaining to the Board of Trustees, then you have a big fuss. So usually, I think it's used as an excuse, and keeping to more traditional conservative forms of education and content, because it's a easy scapegoat decided we can't really, you know, upset the parents are coming in the wider community, whether or not most parents actually disagree. So another point that's going on is that there is really great research that is out there at the moment, for instance, like that, to be who I am report, there's been some really great research, but I don't think it's really been taken seriously. It's not been implemented, it's via we just need to be putting it into practice. And because these issues aren't visible, it's not taken seriously. It's not, it's not there, it's not happening. [00:10:30] I guess another concern I have is there. [00:10:33] Recently, there was the national suicide prevention plan that was put out and the queer communities were completely missing from that plan. of great concern, when we are one of the main demographics that are at high risk of suicide, and how do we deal with it, the fact that we're all really the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, and I sit on communities and our own families and our own peer groups who have to actually bear the brunt of these really, really tragic circumstances, and feeling really isolated most of the time. So it's really concerning that that isn't really even on the agenda at a national level. And another point as in terms of bullying, so, as far as I've been told, the Human Rights Commission has actually told the education department that it's a problem that bullying isn't being recorded. And I think that's really concerning, because we don't know what bullying really looks like, and I'll see it or, and we need to be able to make some, we need to be able to take an actual examination about what homophobic or transphobic bullying will look like. So from the air, by the way, Jason, tell me if I'm starting to run, I came up with this really like complex diagram, because I'm like, Okay, this is, this is really great. We've got all this knowledge, but what do you do with it? How do we make something of it so beautiful with me while I go through this, but basically, I'm kind of saying that, in this case, [00:12:09] the young people were here. [00:12:12] And obviously, on the Central Coast, but I think this can apply to any situation when you're fighting as an activist, right. So this could be beneficiaries. This could be, it could be six workers, it could be homeless, so on and so forth. And I think that what the thing about you is that they know the issues, they know what's going on. So this is both on an institutional knowledge, but [00:12:38] some knowledge. [00:12:39] So they know that it's not theoretical front, it's a 15. This is one of the bat, as well as that we have the workers. [00:12:50] And these are the workers will be working with the year. So it could be teachers, a Kobe quatre focus community organizations, people within mental health, as well as people within governmental departments. And so I'm looking at this real dichotomy between the two. But just for the sake of this, this diagram just got with me for a second. And I was vice on an institutional knowledge so that I directly qualify, assessing what's going on, and they know their issues as well. And also, there's a class of memories. So the older people would have seen the battles that have taken place, and know what has been fought and what has been one, and we we can, we can move forward. So there's a lot of workers within this, who know the problems are, but the reason I put them in a square here is because I think it's really difficult, because we're quite restricted when we fall into these worker spaces. Because I think there's a general logic that as organizations as representatives, we have to remain neutral. And we have to be non political beings and non political organizations. And of course, that's really impossible, because politics is everywhere. power imbalances are everywhere. And it just means that we're not addressing what's going on. So. So the people who have the knowledge are currently quite restricted by what they can do with that knowledge and where it can go. And this can be connected to funding. So it means that people don't want to speak out about stuff, because it means that they might miss out on government or council funding. And just the look of having to be neutral all the time, I think is really big. And it can be police. Sometimes it's really covert, like managers firing employees, or ruining their future job prospects for speaking out. And I think this, particularly with unions is a big one. And also can be least can be more in there. It's not really talked about, nobody really talks about the fact that you know, you're dealing with really complex messed up systems stems. And the problem is the system, the problem is the structures, and it needs to be changed, but nobody really wants, there's no space to be able to talk about it, you just do a job, because it's your job, and you want to put the food on your table, which is quite understandable. [00:15:14] So from here, again, I'm not trying to make these [00:15:21] secret groups, because the thing is, is there's tons of crossover, but the way that I'm conceiving of as a moment is that activists often occupy this space that is out of the square and often out of this as well. And what we can usually do with this space, sometimes we and then sometimes it out, but generally, people are committed to making structural changes outside of the systems or within sometimes as well. And I think, from my perspective, what the role of the activist should be, is having meaningful dialogue with both, both yours or whoever the other directors, and as well, as you look, cuz it all seems kind of common states most of the time. But I think it should be about facilitating a space where activists can talk with the two groups, as well as talking with each other. And from there, taking those pictures and turning them into political messages. [00:16:25] So anything from political messages, that's how we start having a vehicle for creating change. In this is almost the same kind of simple, but I think, from my perspective, having been heavy hitter video person, but also having being a weekend social worker, and being an activist, it's really difficult being able to be in both camps all the time, and being able to pick which hits I mean, I have to get permission to be here speaking on student from certain organizations that I'm a part of. And it's really, I think about how we can use as spices and who we add to our disadvantage. So I think in this particular case, the things that need to happen around queer young people is that there needs to be more open political dialogue. There needs to be more more space for this, and involving many different voices, which is obviously really important. So having people talking to people that they might not usually be talking to, I think, is really, really important in in forming, forming alliances. So I think a key one of that, and what time is down here actually, as some of the spread, but also the right groups, and these unions, and I and terms of hearing is usually you can get these are the people who are going to be the organizations that are already going to be working for social justice. So I think it's about connecting with unions, particularly for young people, connecting with teachers unions, finding allies, having conversations, campaigns at school board level, building public pressure on the outside. And really, I think focusing on the long term, I think capitalism is a system as based on short term fixes in short term responses for long term and bigger problems. And I think that we need to be really fighting that logic, we can't just find once one solution for years and years of our premium, that's not how it's going to be solved. We need to be digging our heels and, and, and working from the ground. And I really liked the the quoted all that happened yesterday in the middle talking about weaving. And I think weaving those relationships together. And that's why in any way, but it needs to happen, so that we can be working together as a stronger front. So yeah, those are my ideas. And thank you for listening [00:18:58] comes into focus and everything. Now, [00:19:04] this starts off very similar to the one we started yesterday, because I didn't know if there was going to be the same people here. Some of you are different, some of you are the same. So bear with me, fine artist to skip through those slides. But so again, who is important as a PC, we were formed in 87 sex workers working together, getting together, talking with each other in beaches on the cafe's, street corners, bars, homes, in the brothels, talking with each other about what could be done to improve the employment rights and also issues about their section, the sexual health because at that time, HIV was just coming into the community contracted by the Ministry of Health although the very first contract that ends at PC PC sign was actually signed with the Minister of Health about the ministry. The ministry, of course, went under different changes over the number of years, and our contracts have continued throughout that period. We have community basis in cities around the country. Those cities also do outreach to various different parts of the country so often covers all of from sort of Southern fringes of Auckland, north. Toronto covers all of Hamilton right down through to Jackie, across taco, Roger, Gisborne, fracturing all that area. Wellington is just kept the coast and white rapper but sometimes going up to the hot speed because we do have a chocolate and Hampson, it does go up to the hot speed and goes across to me as well. Plus, Jeff covers everything from summit to North, and Dineen covers everything from Goldman Sachs. We are a rights based organization. Okay, rather than just a quantum vending machine that we do provide information to people walk in the sex industry. We have websites, one of which is currently under construction, which was the sex McLeod Porter and said, but that's [00:21:06] conduct some other things added to it recently. [00:21:10] We deliver national policy advice to NGOs and government organizations, right throughout the country, including local government organizations. So yes, we do include the Auckland Council, and things like that and the information that we provide. We provide sexual reproductive health resources to all people within the sex industry that's regardless of gender, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of migrant status. And also, regardless of whether they are an operator of whether they're sex workers themselves, okay? We provide a supportive environment in our community basis, anybody can pop in for tea, coffee, chat, whatever, get information about what they need to know about anything like that. And we strengthen strategic alliances rights throughout the sexual health region. area itself as well. So yeah, just a little tongue tied it. Right. So who XX walkers just over half a European just over 30%, a Maori 5%, Pacific Island and 30% 30% or other, the other includes all of Asia, right from Japan, right through to the Middle East, all of Africa, African Americans, South America and the Caribbean. So it's quite a large other 85% of female 9% were male and 6% of transgender. As I said, again, last night sexual orientation has very little to do with what a person does when the red one. This emphasizes that sex work is work rather than sexual orientation. So we have gay men who will work with female clients, straight men who will work with with male clients and lesbians who also work with male clients. So there's very little about sexual attraction to do with it. Again, 83% of the industry is indoor 17% is outdoor that's walking in the streets. [00:23:16] The laugh [00:23:19] profits lights, splash and Paris in lower huts, and the White House in Auckland, the roundabout 62% of the indoor brothels, big owner operated brothels, and the small owner operated rafal said is those that are walking privately by themselves or with one or two others, they take up around about 38% of the indoor waxing. Now, we had this broken down by the area that they work in, we didn't have it really broken down that much. by gender, I had to do a little bit of work to find out exactly how many male sex workers were included that study by region cannot pull figures out from unit. So you can see here that although [00:24:08] it was [00:24:10] quite a large number, what [00:24:14] indoors for all of the sex industry, for male sex workers more than will work outdoors then indoors. Most of the men who are working outdoors are based in Auckland. And at the moment, and it's sporadic. There are no male sex workers walking on the streets in Wellington. Every so often we pick up one or two, but then they disappear again. Because they realized that they can walk better and have better conditions working indoors. [00:24:50] So yeah, 31% 31 of them in Auckland, three of them. None anywhere else. [00:25:00] So why do male sex workers step work. And see here that we've got the comparison there for male female and trans. Everybody sex work for money, some more than others. Men and transgender people are more likely to start sex work to explore their sexuality. Everybody has household expenses, although transgender people are less likely to use the money that the M to professional expenses. But the real telling thing is unable to get a benefit of parental support. [00:25:39] Know, [00:25:41] here, [00:25:42] we find that the people who have tend to not be able to get a benefit or parental support at that time, tend to be older women who are in relationships. So they don't qualify for a benefit because of the spouses income. But for the guys, and from the transgender. You know, it's because they have been told to the fall because of their gender, or sexual orientation. So that's quite a significant thing to take into account. Okay, that's a very significant thing. But does that mean that the heaps of young people walking on the streets? No, it doesn't, because the numbers of involved are so so low to start off with. Last night, I said that there are claims in South Auckland that hundreds of people walking on the street, and dozens of them are young people. That's not true. The police cannot find any evidence of the claims made by us, or anybody else, they cannot find any evidence of the claims made by john McCracken, and the other people from the Auckland Council and the local board who claim that there are hundreds and hundreds of young sex workers out there. It just isn't true. We've worked very closely with sifts, police and other community organizations, including faith based organizations that go out on a regular basis, even the faith based organizations are scratching their heads and going young people out there. So there is no evidence of any of the young people that have claimed by the people that authorities of their faith reputation surrounded by the same all over the place, because it's not against the law anymore. So ran about the same me to walk by someone [00:27:34] planted [00:27:36] hundreds and hundreds of people are trafficked into the sex industry every year. But that's just not true. We don't find any evidence of that. The police don't find any evidence of it. Immigration New Zealand don't find any evidence of that. So yes, people say what for a variety of reasons. And each person has their own individual reason. Some people may think I do this, and then go for it. Maybe do one or two jobs and then stop others for different other reasons. Okay. We have lecturers and policy analysts and people who that we have staff at sex work because it's less stressful than their other job. Okay, sex work venues, managed brothels, massage parlors, they were called agencies, independent private market, places, balls, beats crews, clubs, some of the guys work from there, and of course, street based sites. But [00:28:46] what do we do? [00:28:48] The prostitution of format requires brothel operators to show signs like this. And to take all reasonable steps, which is very different from must use. Okay, must us means that you must always do so. Take all reasonable steps means that if there's a slip up, that's okay. We can deal with that as it comes. But when someone deliberately rips off a condom, that's not take reasonable steps that have been clients who have been charged for removing the condom during sex, and they've all been fined. [00:29:24] But this is really telling [00:29:27] the question, I was wondering to slightly [00:29:33] differently than it should have been. [00:29:37] Always use the condom for vaginal, anal or oral sex. Okay? [00:29:43] No, [00:29:45] this isn't in the table, I had to pull it out from the text. [00:29:51] But wasn't recorded for male of [00:29:55] the female transgender was just a face figure of everybody. [00:30:00] The unprotected anal sex. That's [00:30:09] now the study didn't look at for that it was the incentive partner or the passive partner the top or bottom, whether that was sex one who is playing the path of so we don't know about that. And this is an area that we will have to do more work. And it's an area that we have to do more research. And as well, we are currently talking with KPMG research, who we've worked with in the past to do some research on male sex workers, and find out the reasons why someone using condoms. We know that this [00:30:46] here is the reason why this is. [00:30:51] Part of that is because of different messages from different organizations. NZ PCs, tries to push the message that while you should really be covering up every time and things and if you use a condom for all, you're not going to get happens in the mouth. You're not going to get chlamydia and the most you're not going to get gonorrhea and the nice things because we look at the whole sexual health thing. We don't just look at one aspect. Whereas some other organizations tend to project Well, it's all right for HIV, HIV that way. But they don't talk about other things. [00:31:27] We on the other hand, have to take everything into consideration. [00:31:35] But the frequency that unsafe sex is f4. That's quite surprising things [00:31:43] in comparison to the female workers. [00:31:50] This is low. And this is very hard. And we are very concerned about that by the clients of male walkers in particular, they're asking for unsafe sex. Why are the male clients of transgender people asking for unsafe sex. But the strategies that people use to get clients to use a condom tell us the law. It's quite plain simple, no problems whatsoever. Tell them that the owner of rafal operator tells them that they have to wear a condom. [00:32:24] That works quite well. threatening to call someone that has been used. [00:32:30] Tell them explicitly beforehand. Just do a hand job. That's the easiest one, the one that you can't see, because the bags the bottles still showing there is refused to do the job. [00:32:42] The total [00:32:43] is 60% 56% for male and 60%, female 71% for trans. So a lot of transgender workers will refuse to do the job rather than form unsafe sex. So what happened before for and after the prosecution of format, the 17th of December 2002, one of the mailboxes here in Washington, had the police raided his house. [00:33:09] He was told we're here to session [00:33:15] on a search warrant that had [00:33:18] we can see condoms and other sex paraphernalia as evidence of [00:33:25] as a gay man. How many condoms does he keep at home before his house would have been classed as a profit? [00:33:33] Okay. Since the period has been passed in 2003, the police attitude is completely changed. And now it's one of protection rather than execution. And I say persecution for a reason. It's safe to keep condoms etc. At home, we no longer have to hide them and fridges as some people were doing. You can work from as a sex worker from home and it's okay to run a brothel. institution and for the format has been passed. It's been reviewed by the prosecution Law Review Committee that included sex workers rafal operators and people from Ministry of women's Affairs Ministry of Health and various other government and non government organizations as well as NZ PC. There such from the questions to medicine has shown that the prosecution of format provides a lot of support for sex workers. And it works very well that it does remain contentious as we saw last night stuff about South Auckland. One of the very important things that comes out of it though, is that sex workers can say no to sex with a client for any reason at any time. [00:34:46] and not have to say far. [00:34:49] So, what does a PC in particular provide to me and walkers? Well, the obvious and different flavors, different sizes, different colors? Okay, from large to small, two [00:35:07] different types of flavors, strawberry vanilla, banana, yeah, we do do taste, tastes, [00:35:14] chocolate, things like that. Okay, we also provide the other obviously, look, again, we do taste tests, and I still can't stand that artificial banana flavored [00:35:25] dental dams. [00:35:29] dental dams are used for grooming, and for going down and woman then just add protection and things that stops things from boys, and of course clubs. But the most important thing is information for quits. This one here is one of the new locker booklets. And it goes into everything that people will need to know about sex work. Yes, it does have pictures of dribbling dicks and things like that. So that people are aware of what those might look like. Also goes into information about employment rights, your rights as a sex worker. And it also covers things like taxation. Everything that a person needs to know about sex workers in the tells you how to get out of difficult or dangerous situations that lets you know about other things that might arise as you're watching as well. Not only that, but we talked with people as well when they come into us to ask about sex work. And I give various case studies that have happened in things like the guy who was in Auckland with a female client. And as he was walking away on the bed, found out a weird noise stopped, weird noise continued cover up and found that was the husband under the bed jerking off on the fact that his wife was having sex with another guy. [00:36:54] Another way of water in Auckland to hear a sneeze coming from the wardroom [00:37:00] realized that the clients boyfriend was in there with a video camera. [00:37:05] The client that [00:37:08] didn't pay and then came back didn't pay the right amount of money came back to be the same situation and was strapped up against the wall. [00:37:19] When he was confronted and said, You didn't pay me properly last week, I'll just leave it overnight. [00:37:25] Walker walks towards the door. [00:37:28] Client blindfolded doesn't know what's going on. Please, Mr. Stop, please, Mr. Come back. From right. [00:37:39] So yeah, we do cover a lot of the cases that might arise in a lot of the cases that [00:37:46] may only arise once [00:37:50] we talk with sex workers all the time we discuss with them at the moment with the new Baka booklet I have one of the midwife was in Madison here going through Milwaukee, Brooklyn. And making sure that this stuff is appropriate for male walkers is this one here is more of a general thing rather than a specific gender thing. [00:38:15] I often get asked, so how many male walkers and Wellington at the moment [00:38:20] that hands on to the UK and hold the ones on the websites or just all the ones that you know who are actually walking? If you go by all of the ones that are on the websites, it can be about 30. But if you go by all the ones who are working at the moment, surrender 11. [00:38:40] So yeah. Okay, [00:38:43] it's just preferences on the next page. So great. [00:39:00] Going to paint a very broad, front line. [00:39:06] rubber meets the road kind of strategies to help educate, and I know that the CO publisher for the switch off was deemed a sexual minority. So some of that more specific, what I think would work on the front line. And others are just generic that will help. I don't like the word clients or the food, people will find that the people that we work with, I want to start with a few models that are found effective. Now. These are found in conventional takes around the highfalutin but they work [00:39:40] in practice. So the first excuse my head is this is actually a cocktail [00:39:49] class. [00:39:51] Because everyone that we actually support types of [00:39:57] work they need depended on experiencing a new life. They mainly front loading, project management, a lot of investment. And that's the first thing that they must drink before we address the issues that might be going on here some sometimes. So that's a very nice to intensify your intervention. Very early on foreplay, named most things gradually, progress things very good. And this is normally centered around tasks. So just very easy bite size, do this first x y&z kind of stuff. [00:40:39] The other one is [00:40:41] circus. [00:40:46] So this ring masters dabbling. And sometimes what you're doing because you don't know when agencies that can get back to you is that you will concentrate or of circumstances are changing, like the first ball drops, it doesn't really matter, because you need to throw the next part of your intervention up in the year. So it's just like the cyclical nature, because you're never quite sure how someone's life, your involvement with them is better to now, it time. So you always have to be really to change what's kind of up in the year, keep track of your interviews. And as much as possible. I can't draw a chameleon. But if you could just, you know, [00:41:32] their anatomy doesn't change. So you have to keep your professional [00:41:38] you're pretty similar about you. But you need to be able to adapt quite quickly the colors that you can't, depending on the situation. And so the way that I might approach someone at a travel authority is going to be completely different, how I'm going to appear and proceed with my intervention, say at work. And then we can say just imagine like a community in you have to be able to take quite quickly. And now I go over just some generic stuff and you know, drill down into specific [00:42:12] housing, health and education stuff. [00:42:19] A lot of upset, a lot of the time, people want to escalate to a manager. Now they vary in five minutes, with the person with their backs up and feeling cornered, and they'll actually sabotage your involvement. And I noticed that a lot of people employed it technique. But I'd advise on maybe trying some other things. But [00:42:50] now that might have spiritually inclined, [00:42:53] I believe. [00:42:57] Because when you're at the edge of the kingdom, they know that you have the energy that you're going to give up in after three attempts, you've lost the battle before you've even started. So they need to know that your signature your energy is going to prevail, it changes the whole dynamic with how you deal with them. Because if they feel that they can brush you off of some kind of flipping of a Get out of my face on a call me. You won't come out on top of next situation was promise there? [00:43:32] Oh, yeah. [00:43:34] Instead, the vote beforehand. [00:43:38] What you don't want [00:43:41] is when the person your work, especially we're talking about minorities is to go into that. And the understandable victim mentality, they have to be on the same page as you and be quite because I play so here we can come in the case managers over the they see that you're disagreeing, you know, that you don't know where your person is going to come from with their advocacy. Again, it's very detrimental, you know, to involvement because they sell us don't even agree. So why would I blow it up on the other side, let's say stake the vote beforehand. [00:44:24] The other one is, a lot of organizations thought to be [00:44:30] done by another, especially if you can make the loan to the community. So if you can pay your Fix email, voicemail, leak, they know that sounds I was gonna going to come through with this part of your intervention before, what are you what is your organization going to do? I found that quite effective. And the pastors that local organization, nobody wants to be at, done. Another thing just like teachers, and may being a social worker, if you need to call upon your membership or anything in there, I don't think that's because when you look like you're just an individual, just doing that, on behalf of someone, they weren't going to be the time of day, but if you came and advise them, that you are fully, so professional members of quality that really, really changes things in your favor. [00:45:34] And paying it forward. Especially [00:45:40] if you just show up and you want something [00:45:45] you're not going to take much. And this is the reciprocation, it's needed amongst us officials, because figures go knocking on someone's door. I haven't seen you for a year, but now that you want something, how long would [00:45:58] that take need that gotta stand up, always paste, Insider, [00:46:05] but never ever asked him to do anything dodgy. Because just like we wouldn't ask to be nice to put out joggers never ever asked him to do something, he will sing these things. [00:46:19] Another thing is for life crisis. [00:46:23] This is before going sideways if you need to, because what they will do is they will default that you have not adhered to our internal processes, therefore, your review is invalid. So just I don't mean to sound takes people to succeed. But I just hopefully one of the things [00:46:46] recently. [00:46:49] The other one, of course, is [00:46:56] exemplary [00:46:59] service, you can kill a [00:47:02] because of centralization. And a lot of professionals don't know, the person you're working with from above site. So if you can extol the virtues, you know, just want a wonderful person you found to be, you know, within reason, by the thing, I would also do that, just caution me like here. When it comes to funding, a lot of NGOs don't have much money. So I wouldn't start to threaten or saying I'm going to seek legal advice or the situation because what what we normally have access to round Security Law Center, or you have legal aid, or a very specific government partners [00:47:54] are the private law [00:47:57] made you a saint. [00:48:01] Because when it comes to this subsidy, [00:48:05] or free information, they never have as much resources if they're exposing something new, very [00:48:16] cheap for a guards. [00:48:22] The other one is the what's in it for me. So a little bit of research, especially the strategic plan, so if you can align where you're coming from your organization, not just what you're wanting out of this situation, but what is in it for the other organization as another good leader head in business cards, rather than just on a plane, a four as well. Okay, now, specifically to help No. Just with I'll quickly run through them, the Ministry of Health PH chose the New Zealand Medical Council, the health and disability Commissioner, but more locally is that practices. If you're not getting much joy from your GP, you might want to approach one of the partners of their practice because they have a vested interest and what people are coming into the practice. Housing, so has a New Zealand weddings, I did want to put on a plug for Chris over there about the Wellington Housing Trust. Also emergency accommodation, you must have a support plane, because around Wellington, they've got very iffy about just accepting someone that they feel is at risk. So you know, demeaned, mentioned mental health and like won't be leading that person into the accommodation or [00:50:04] education district for the Minister of Education era NZQ a board of trustees, the unions [00:50:15] have got found I would have written down here because [00:50:19] if you can sell a mutual Alliance, where they know that if they help the person that you're advocating for, will mean a sustained benefit to them over the long run with it be by a formal email, you are just like a working relationship. I just thought of a specific example was I managed to get someone's ring reduced by $80 a week simply because this person he says, taking ESL classes, and I know that they would not have got an interpreter the to help that person understand that contract. So I don't need to do the whole legally and you sit just simply because they knew that that particular lady would not have understood at all what they would have been going through. I don't know if I mentioned the tenancy tribunal the the health example I have as a fucker in the example. And I just could not believe you know, there's a lot of Allied Health stuff and so called that you got a specialist, your surgeons, registrar's, so forth. And you think that after all the years of formal education that they have, that they might change every person have some dignity, but like they would jaws dropping all around the wards through the corridors, and I just was rather disheartening that, you know, so called professionals out there. I guess don't have the humanity with them the empathy, still not to discriminate against gender and sexual minorities. [00:52:00] Another plug for social workers, because [00:52:04] there's not much we haven't seen, you know, by now after you've been there a while. So if you're at a loss, you know what to do with the Euro in a sticky situation or whether you're wanting to support in a loved one friend, family member, get a social worker, ASAP. [00:52:33] In with a special similarities they speak of the Human Rights Commission. So it will be good to familiarize yourself with what grounds in areas of Human Rights Commission panels, also equal employment opportunities, which is a and if the person that you're not working with, sorry, if the person you're working with isn't working, then you want to seek review of any decision. That's the only way that you normally get any joy out of work and income. [00:53:11] said in itself. [00:53:18] Oh, yeah. And I'll end with [00:53:31] this is the only area that anything's even meaningful to me one. [00:53:37] Oh, what was it I meant that the day I [00:53:39] talk does not cook rice. I just heard that the other day and I will never forget it. So you know, theorizing is all fine and well, ivory tower, and academia. But we must be the conduit here, bring the theory down into the reality of the person's world. So that you can actually make a difference in their life by practice. [00:54:17] Half an hour left. So we're going to get through our next two speakers. And I'm going to open it up for some brief discussion can do that on a sorrows. [00:54:27] I'm going to [00:54:30] say we wanted to run around the room. [00:54:40] I'm also going to say that I have got a pretty diverse draw, I've got my wonderful PowerPoints to display, he's connected sit and watch me Listen to me [00:54:47] blow bomb. [00:54:52] Okay. [00:54:56] One of the things that I've been learning through my last time, it's quite a long one is that it's really important to give people tools to resolve issues themselves. It's no good we were talking about this morning. So if you're in it session that you know, West is best, and we go and we tell people what to do and how to live their lives and stuff. But I'm going to go a little bit against that. Because when it comes to housing, I firmly believe that social housing is incredibly important. And right now, our current current government is screwing with it. social housing as a service, which is provided by governments in order to ensure the most vulnerable have a roof over the head, in my opinion, is in fact the right and not a luxury. The government is making huge changes to its policies related to social housing. And these will have direct effects on many people from within our own communities. New Zealanders managing majority of social housing stock on behalf of the government. But recent changes have seen this task being handed over to the Ministry of Social Development. I recently had a bit of dealing with an organization called body positive, which is an HIV support group founded by and run by people living with HIV AIDS. [00:56:24] And the [00:56:25] hit Bruce kill Mr from the organization is really concerned about MST taking over the running of housing, because he's in fear of people with HIV, not meeting the right criteria and being thrown out from their homes. Part of the thing for not only people living with HIV, but people who are in a minority is to establish themselves in their community. And one of the ways of doing that, especially if you don't have access to work, is to do that from where you're living. And if you suddenly, you've been living in marketplace for 12 1520 years, and through changes the government making you us to move from that home because they want to pull it down and sell the land off. That's going to really mess with your head and make it really difficult for you to continue living a happy, healthy existence. So yeah, Bruce has quite a concerned about what's going to happen with. He's particularly concerned with gaming living with HIV AIDS, but it's going to have an effect on anybody. And what it's going to happen around MST running looking after the housing sector. Earlier this year, the lovely Nick Smith, recycled Minister for housing, announced plans to transfer 12,000 steak houses to community groups and charities. And one hand it looks like a really cool idea to get allow people who deal with those who are in need of housing to be actually providing the housing and helping the right people get into the get into the homes that they need. But in my daytime job that I do, working at Otago, university public health in the housing sector, we've come to learn that one of the biggest charities that wants to take on as many of these as they possibly can, is our lovely friends at the Salvation Army. And I'm sure I don't need to explain to anybody around here, the history that our communities have with the Salvation Army. So anybody who is trans, or queer in any aspect, or even a street worker, or sex worker, who rocks on up to the Salvation Army says I need a house, please. I don't think they're going to get particularly very far. And this, I think, is dangerous in the fact that it could cause people to return back into the closet in order to feed if you're desperate for some way to live. And your only option in your area is to go to the Salvation Army. And you've used up every resource you possibly can think of, and this is your last opportunity. People kind of put themselves back in the closet, and that's really unhealthy. [00:59:08] Unfortunately, [00:59:10] in our communities, we're really, really over represented in the statistics, in relation to mental health issues, it's a big problem. So being able to having to put yourself back in the closet, deny who you are, behave in a different manner, just in order to bear to get yourself a home is incredibly problematic. Because in turn, having a home having a place to live in a sense of space, a sense of your own. Some way to call your own space, that's really important to you good mental health mean, we all know that those of us that are lucky to have somewhere to live, it's your own little space. Even if it's just a room in a shared flat, it's yours, it's somewhere that you can make to look like your own space, something that's really relatable to who you are and represents who you are. So if you're living in constant fear of not being able to be who you are, because you're terrified of being evicted, because your landlord is the Salvation Army, or some other church organization, or some other group that's not going to that has no understanding of what it means to be other than heterosexual that mental health status is going to be really, really compromised. And I think that's [01:00:25] a really big issue. [01:00:28] One of the other things that is really concerning to me, Wellington right now is the lack of emergency housing for our youth. And and I will, we will understand that as well. We have over the last two or three years had real issues, with youth being thrown out of their homes and having nowhere to go. There's nowhere in Wellington that has a fixed place where people can go knock on the door and say, I really need some help, or enough place to stay for a few days, few weeks, however long. [01:01:00] I did have a bit more to say. But I'm kind of [01:01:03] keeping in mind the time. So I'm going to stop there. But if anyone wants to come and talk to me about it, either the rest of today or anytime ever. Come talk to me because I think it's a really, it's a really big issue and something that we need to be working on because it is one of those areas that we can't fix social housing is something that the government needs to be providing, not removing [01:01:26] thanks [01:01:33] for spending probably less time [01:01:37] trying to think of being roughly of raisins, therefore not really thinking about what what the hell, I'm going to tweet under economics and sad. And though I'm not an economist, I'm quite keen on economic ideas, if only if only just simply to sort of say, in my semi retirement to sort of try and separate out from the kind of things one hears what some economic truths basically. And I recently responded to [01:02:12] the UN [01:02:17] review of human rights in New Zealand. And I looked at the report that the Human Rights Commission had done. And I noticed that there was nothing in this about people in our old age. And we're, we're in a conference in which we're trying to just think about everybody. And I was trying to sort of work out well, what am I going to say about economics that, say works against the kind of divisions that frequently exist. It's not uncommon to hear the older people described as wealthy [01:03:08] blooding, [01:03:12] two houses, three houses stacked up with pensions and and well being. [01:03:19] And so, and I, and I must admit, part of my response to the human rights Commission's draft. I haven't read the the final version. But But fundamentally, it was wondering why wondering if I had actually come to agree with those same opinions, because it's quite obvious to me that many people who are older, are also poor. [01:03:49] And it's not uncommon to, [01:03:53] to read about people being abused in and care [01:03:59] for care, preferred facilities themselves to be rarely properly evaluated and policed, regulated, really, for major investments to be made. In the care sector, which actually substantially is going Boston, in the UK, in fact, [01:04:20] and there's a tendency for me to believe anyway, that [01:04:24] provision broadly is following the same sort of path, as it has done in UK over here in in New Zealand, and given a huge boost to the 80s, of course, by the regulation. So recently, we've had two very good studies, to vocal books published. One is called inequality, a museum crisis. And the other one is affordable housing. And though I don't really like that referring people to books, because it's not everybody stays certainly that they are a very good guy it actually, historically, it which is most important taxi, because I think if you're younger, you might not fully understand how things were done 40 years ago. And since it's been a huge economic change in approach, over the last 4050 years, there was a there was the world what's turned out to be a very brief period of 20 years after the Second World War, which many developed countries have very good welfare systems. The remaining years big ones in which economically, the conditions that the the wealth, if you like held by is all in common, have been reduced simply because the economics have been ones and which income is flowed to the very rich. In fact, since 2008, that's being the patent even more. So there was a drop in wealth, because people lost a lot of money when things crashed, but they've more often than not made up for that. So I was thinking, I'm probably getting towards the end of what am I usually say? I was thinking, Well, what what kind of say about the last 60 years say, Well, my economic perspective is one in which you, you're wise, I think to understand that, if you're 20, then what you're doing now economically and over the rest of your life can be what you're actually living off, in when you retire when or when you need to start work. And the normal way to look at that is to think ahead and say, I think the realistic I to look after yourself, when you're 60 or 70, or whatever, when you want to start work is actually to look at what what society is accumulating now out of your work in the form of assets. And we've got the asset sales that are coming up now. But the kinds of assets I think are the ones that as I was a young person I lived off basically, I lived off what my parents and grandparents contributions, I lived off their hospitals, their schools, roads, and all the improvements by lift off my education. I lift off all of what I conceived to be accumulated the commons really in society. So I think the realistic way of viewing older age when you can no longer work, as it is, of course, for young for children who can't work or people who are disabled, it's actually to look at society, South was the the vehicle for looking after people. It's a process of renewal. It's a process of renewal, and which now, just by virtue of the work you do, your contributions, whether paid or not, and you allow the rest of society to accumulate the assets that you have an entitlement to an older age. I don't think the the most effective way of of looking after yourself is to save in commercial private pensions. I believe it's bye bye by political and economic policies that allow society to accumulate wealth in common that allows people to be supported across their life from childhood to old age. [01:08:57] One big thank you for all panelists, getting up here sharing with us some of their ideas and some experiences about how we can come together and five plus five or more some of the practical aspects of that. Some of the thoughts about how we can build some campaigns around that once it opens up for discussion now or any questions that any members of the audience had about what what we can be doing to, but for more in terms of how they hasn't helped terror school to make it more accessible for queers, OR share with us any of your experiences that you've had did a lot of legal [01:09:35] work, like in terms of like school curriculum, [01:09:37] high school curriculum at the moment, [01:09:40] with with the full curriculum standard when it comes to [01:09:45] especially trans [01:09:48] people like passing on knowledge. [01:09:54] As far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the curriculum that says that you have to be teaching anything around. [01:10:06] South African, there's nothing specifically in terms of subject breakdowns. Helpful, you might expect that [01:10:13] there are [01:10:14] local [01:10:16] delis inside of the curriculum and English sculptures, [01:10:20] be explicitly teaching and foster [01:10:24] those to [01:10:26] kind of cover things like respectful diversity, which [01:10:30] technically [01:10:34] and there's also responsibilities for [01:10:37] schools in terms of [01:10:40] the next the national administrative guidelines that again, must respect with with to provide all the tools [01:10:47] to rip it off, people interpret those. [01:10:53] But technically, that can be used. [01:10:58] And I think this is nothing Pacific about it. But here is those kinds of values that can be used and interpreted. But there's also I think I'm in terms of era, I think I think the is sections in the era in terms of how modern Pacifica like young people were kind of included with the lead. And I think it's really important. I don't think there's anything specifically here such goes out being march for instance, or regulated on how they treat their sexuality, sexual and gender diverse young people. [01:11:32] Just don't [01:11:34] get the launch date. [01:11:37] legislature battery for that it's coming up this week, it's been launched up an open also with the managed to make with Chris Hopkins, a nice, very, very receptive to quite rigorous reform of all facets of education. It was really happening. This was only I think, what, two three weeks ago, so I'm either hopeful and a single very genuine about transforming his legs. [01:12:13] Also, Casey, [01:12:15] you guys just stepped [01:12:16] on Google sleep. [01:12:20] What is the same thing being done on? [01:12:32] I'm not quite sure what it is. I mean, we've got to teach it here in the room, so that it might be quite useful. Yeah, we've had some kind of discussions with him. [01:12:45] Some stats, [01:12:48] specifically, [01:12:51] that you can put in yourself. [01:12:56] I know it was quite surprised by the number of [01:13:00] I'm a teacher, I'm in terms of teaching [01:13:05] people there. So they [01:13:07] could be so I'm going [01:13:08] to push the a very positive, very positive. [01:13:16] I think that's another thing. This is something that I talked about here. But it was a really big thing. And in terms of staff who we're being able to feel comfortable enough to come out because I think that's usually my experiences. The first time that I ever heard about someone being quiet was a teacher at the local high school. And they're almost like a grocery list, VN. But it was the first time that I never even heard the word gay, lesbian being used. And so I think there's a huge amount of power and being able to be and I know, for instance, at my high school, I've since gone back and had discussions with people about what I do now. And I'm like, that's really interesting, because actually, we had, you know, gay people, gay teachers. And they were really told to not say anything into saying the closet. And it's a real issue. If you don't even know, don't send your staff thing I want to come out. On what kind of standard does that sit for any young people? Yeah, so thank you for bringing that up. And I think that kind of settled in really kicks for for sure. [01:14:11] But I've also looked at the Youth Leadership report, using it for research and going into the latest random information that came out. A lot of the young people reported saying that if they were aware of Queen Street, the Queen teachers in their school, or at least an acceptance by the teachers, they were more inclined to come out and also feel safe in doing so. So having those kind of figures is incredibly important. For making home environment. Can [01:14:42] we make it safer for all the kids [01:14:48] and adults to live? By that you see up to speed other guidance counselor haphazardly find your way to schools? strike Alliance? [01:15:12] Sorry, this is sorry. [01:15:16] What are you spent your best possible [01:15:17] like a staggering retirement age and the impact that might possibly be like [01:15:27] the real problem in the [01:15:30] economy because figures about lesbians and [01:15:34] gays and queer people, [01:15:36] transsexuals, it doesn't have any particularly strong information about what we might expect over the span of our lives. [01:15:46] Which is why I didn't really talk about it. I think it following general rule, I think it can only be words, for people who are discriminated against, likely to be discriminated against the costs across their lifetime, and possibly accumulating the effects of discrimination. So that would be a broad principle to imply in the absence of figures of stuff like that, poses in research. In terms of staggered, retirement ages, I must admit, I find it difficult to forgive the Labour Party for offering to be responsible and change their retirement age from 65. To 67. The reason I find I think it's on forgivable is, I think it was opportunities at the time, because they're into proven themselves to be responsible. And I think it's a false responsibility. I think that there's a lot of occupations, or there's a lot of life circumstances to short people's lives, that forgetting about their contribution, the amount of contribution people made, who cares about but as far as I'm concerned, they wouldn't be working during that period of time, or they would have tried to work hard to be stuck. But they would have contributed in countless other ways. I mean, possible submission to the UN thing was about the ways one can be your contribution of a lifetime, more than enough to look after you in your older age. And I think it's important to establish, establish that principle as soon as possible for people who have worked in a whole number of industries, people who got thrown out of work. When the economy crashed in the ACS. There's a whole bunch of people who will live get to the point who will live short lives. In fact, [01:17:46] he should rise. [01:17:49] No, not actually, I think one should have a reasonably low and flexible approach to pensions and stopping work, if people stop working doesn't necessarily make they've stopped contributing to society. And I think that's important point. [01:18:06] To some sort of code. [01:18:10] It's easy to pull out the rushes. But broadly, you've asked me, that's my sort of way of responding. [01:18:23] Come in, really, [01:18:26] I think that probably if I think the [01:18:28] last half dozen [01:18:31] suicidal situations, [01:18:35] or two, [01:18:35] one of them would have been qualitative, qualitatively east [01:18:39] by access to good house. [01:18:43] Now, [01:18:44] every one of those has been a query trend situation. But I think, actually, or counselors [01:18:50] don't think of this as Council [01:18:52] in mind. [01:18:56] I think that [01:18:59] this would be true before counselors practice was [01:19:01] a general [01:19:04] population as a whole [01:19:07] domestic crises, [01:19:09] any any kind of personal crisis that you can think of a very large proportion of them [01:19:15] will not [01:19:16] a not 1000, [01:19:18] but would be qualitatively east [01:19:21] by access to housing alternatives. And, [01:19:25] and it seems to be extraordinary, [01:19:27] that as a community, we got to find ways to create more choices and more [01:19:35] opportunities for more different kinds of houses. [01:19:39] That clearly needs to be risk by housing [01:19:43] prices on on a much more [01:19:47] massive scale that we have now. [01:19:49] But that, you know, [01:19:52] one of the things which keeps bad marriages [01:19:54] together, [01:19:56] is the fact that it's very difficult to leave marriage without [01:20:01] physically leaving your children. Right. [01:20:05] So [01:20:07] that the thing, the thing, which holds the marriage system together, [01:20:11] actually, is a shortage of alpha. [01:20:17] And [01:20:18] we look at it transcends transcend marriage. [01:20:21] By talking about wonderful [01:20:24] ideas of polyamory and things like that. We're going to transcend [01:20:28] it by making it possible. [01:20:32] And so [01:20:32] I think we should be focused on on [01:20:39] ways of getting accessible. [01:20:44] One, one thing, [01:20:46] it seems to lead, and from [01:20:48] where I stand in terms of my [01:20:50] daily life, dealing with crises among real people, that seems pretty damn good. [01:20:58] I see a boat inside school say that in a state undertaking housing result of being a case manager [01:21:08] is hard enough to keep up with a [01:21:11] flood of people you know, that are coming in. And then when you're not having someone at your desk, you're processing and I'm Susan all experience the delays, and bureaucracy processing applications and cycle. The other thing. [01:21:29] The case managers artists glaze over because it's very hierarchical, and you just follow your job description. you process the benefit, the process hardship, and you process supplementary assistance. We had a budgeting advisor who took time out of his day to come down and present to us. [01:21:48] And in this family bonds coordinator is employed by we can income to oversee those referrals. As a member that's not okay. [01:21:57] campaign. [01:21:58] And you've got 20 122 year old enough done a year to [01:22:03] get here. And can you imagine how they would respond to someone Exodus close and family round? They wouldn't have a clue what I have grave sensitize casements can attack on housing. I think you know the main level, but they just do not have the capacity. And then our day to trace benefits and has and I won't understand the complexities that people come to the technical around, they have solutions. [01:22:41] Something around 50 these studies recently pointed the fact that the 50% of people in New Zealand virtually no wealth at all. And the people who do have wealth that wealth is tied up in the houses. It seems to be awfully inside [01:23:01] policy based upon mortgage [01:23:05] and to be signing off still selling off public housing and not building new. How on earth can we have affordable housing. If the if the median age the median wage is 24,000? [01:23:20] I mean, how can [01:23:21] we be talking about affordable local chapter [01:23:25] it seems to be it encourages housing goals. And it encourages people to think that the only option for look to to improve our lives. And one of the [01:23:43] interesting statistics to to allow people to understand the benefits of social housing, building more houses is imperative is that in Christchurch, those a bigger quite we will know better that right? Same time Japan had a big earthquake in those first two years since both of those quakes, even was cracked to announce that built 500 odd houses. Great news do not have any fan built in the same thought bring over 70,000 [01:24:19] the government provided housing for people who they knew were desperate and needed some way to live. So the government did it. They didn't build a million dollar fancy police, pretty bad police stations, they built houses. [01:24:37] kick the tires. I think we should probably bring this session to an end. [01:24:41] I want to thank our speakers as well. Thank everyone here. We have. Absolutely I think will being served and then we'll have our final session. So thank [01:24:49] you, everybody.

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