Session 11 - Beyond conference

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the queer ventures and privacy a.com. [00:00:07] everybody [00:00:10] welcome back for this evening session, [00:00:13] I should introduce our steam [00:00:15] panel. [00:00:16] with apologies for that we're too short. [00:00:20] Not too short, but [00:00:26] I'm sure too many too many of you, as a family member courageous and long time travel like [00:00:35] we have standing in tonight for Catherine Callum, [00:00:38] and it works with Catherine. And we'll be talking about similar stuff, including the monitor. [00:00:47] And it will have directly as a member [00:00:49] of attic work council creepy News Network for is being gay, [00:00:53] W bisexual, transgender [00:00:55] female members. [00:00:58] So they'll be presented. [00:01:10] It would be nice to be able to say that when people are fucked over when they're oppressed, they naturally ally with one another, unite with one another, respect one another, and everything is happy. But it doesn't actually in practice easily work out that way. The truth is there because oppression oppressors, because people are backed over by their economic circumstances by the ship they face in life. That's sometimes not actually in the best position to judge how to make alliances or even what's on their own interest, let alone what's decent. And so we fought each other over. [00:02:04] That's the truthfulness. And it happens all over the place. [00:02:11] And we notice it in the different rivalries we have [00:02:18] in our political campaigns, we notice it. And we usually assure that we are in the right, and the other person isn't. And that's not always the case. [00:02:31] I noticed this first. [00:02:36] I think probably in the early days of the AIDS [00:02:42] when we were all absolutely terrified. [00:02:48] And we started to learn something about HIV AIDS. And we will being godhead will been bought out by the media. And we will got out by authority in general. And gay people were being seen and pointed out as the carriers of this terrible disease, which could be caught off doorknobs and things like that, but gay people responsible for and it was terrifying situation, it was a disease, which was done to kill you very, very quickly. And there was this huge phobia that developed about it. And in that context, they developed a kind of hierarchy of competitive oppression within the groups of people affected by HIV or AIDS, it was even before there was something cool HIV AIDS. And we didn't know what it was, but it was this gameplay start be called back eight. And and we we we realized that it had must have something to do with sexual transmission. But of course, we were very eager to prove that we were the ones that were primarily responsible with someone else who was more a danger to the community because everyone saying we were dangerous, and gay men. And I must confess that I thought the Swain myself briefly tended to think Well, probably more important in the spread of HIV, then it's inevitable spread to the heterosexual community, which we'll talk about more important than gay people would be particular groups against the people like married gay people, or perhaps it would be prostitutes. Or perhaps it would the drug users, intravenous drug users, they will be the real victims of transmission. And so there was this impulse to, to put down to point out to, to degrade other groups of people. And of course, people who are more further down the hierarchy of oppression of oppression than one was oneself. Now, of course, that way of thinking is a recipe for disaster. Because actually, all of us were being affected by it. Actually, all of us, were capable of spreading it to other people, actually, all of us could take measures to make sure that we didn't spread it to other people. And actually, the real way to stop the spread of HIV, nothing to do with any of us, but rather to do with public health policies and things like that, which would be on an individual. [00:06:09] But the secret to getting out of the ghastly situation of mass hysteria about HIV was not to put each other down. But to get together, created united front, to work out what we have in common to support each other, to build each other's organizations, for gaming to ally with sex workers, to gaming to ally, with intravenous drug users, and, and anyone else that we can get hold off to ally with In fact, the people who are most who are the least likely to get HIV, lesbians, and they will some of our very best allies. But they saw the way in which HIV was being used to create homophobia, which in turn, of course oppress them, and so that they could see a logic besides a simple human connection, a logic, a political logic, and a lot in joining the alliance against HIV hysteria, because it was also an alliance against homophobia. And that principle of, of standing back from the struggle and resisting the human temptation, to find someone else to blame, rather, to, to, to see how there is a fundamental underlying unity between all these different oppressions, is, is crucial for us to, to to, to make progress. And it's interesting, because those alliances that were created, when we started to put things together, those alliances have stuck together pretty well. For, what, 35 years or something. [00:08:22] And this town anyway, and I think in other places, but I think that we've been lucky in creating alliances, where where [00:08:33] queer communities and intravenous drug using communities and sex workers actually fight well together. And where there is, I hope, a better recognition of the dangers of different layers of queer communities, getting each at each other. But it comes up with every struggle comes up again. And we saw it, and they struggle for marriage reform, we saw ways in which there was a tendency for some people to think that the radicals were going to undermine and damage and hurt the struggle for for marriage reform, and a huge amount of suspicion and nastiness behind it. That was really quite the main danger, actually, as I saw it, to the to marriage before was often the fear that someone was going to hurt the campaign. And therefore, people had to be controlled carefully because they were dangerous. And that's the same kind of thing, showing it so again, [00:10:00] and that that's, [00:10:01] that's something that we've got to work to try to overcome. Because we're there is a basis for political unity, where there's a common objective, we might as well get the people who have a common objective to work together on it for God's sake, even if there's differences on the reasoning and the arguments behind it. Even if we want to say all sorts of political criticism that can be completely different to the fear and and and nastiness which sometimes what every time tends to crop up, but can be taught through it's a matter of that patient talking through of the the attempted put downs. That's important to [00:11:09] but my name is Kevin vanity, I work for the New Zealand prostitutes collective. And what I'm going to be talking about today on the seat so [00:11:19] what is an who has ended PC to start off with NZ pc started in 1987. We with a group of people who were sex workers and allies, they met in beaches, on street corners, in cafes you had around about in the 1980s, early 1980s, mid 1980s and embarrass, talking with each other about their employment rights, and also about sexual reproductive health issues. Because just that time, HIV was becoming quite big, as Bill has addressed already. And the first place that ends at PC head in one sense on Cuba street with ends at PC where the people living with AIDS union and white which is no drugs, health development, project, needle exchange. So yes, we've got all groups in one building, as if we were untouchable to some people. We contracted with the Ministry of Health and its predecessors and thank me to eight. We have community basis and often Toronto, Burlington productions and Eden we do outreach as well. Not only to within each city but also to other parts of the country. So often covers from the southern fringes of Auckland breakups through the father a car tire tire on that goes right across through Hamilton down through Rocky, up to topple Rotorua and across the chasm. Wellington just does kept the coast and white rapper sometimes up the Hawke's Bay because we do have a negligible comparison of because from only right across street the hot speed questions, which covers from tomorrow, not engineering from automotive side. We are a rights based organization is some people think that we are condom vending machine but No, we're not. We're not a rights based organization. We have a couple of websites, one of which is currently under development. And that's the bottom one. The first one is the one that we're mostly using. So how do we do things we talked with NGOs, government organizations, we provide advice, and sometimes policy advice to those groups that support positive sexuality in New Zealand. Sometimes we also get invited to go overseas, Canada, Vienna, other places like that. We provide sexual reproductive health resources to all people in the sex industry, but just sex workers, but also to brothel operators as well. Okay, we provide a supportive environment, within our community and faith basis, people can just pop in for a coffee, check, whatever, that to help them understand some of the things that they may be facing. we strengthen strategic alliances within the sexual health groups as well. And we look towards reducing stigma and sexual violence as well as SD ours. So who have sex workers, it's not similar to the population demographics, more than half just over half of them. European, just over 30% 35%, Pacific Island, and 13% other, the other consists of all of Asia, that's from Japan, right through Southeast Asia, India, right to the Middle East. So that's a large group of ethnicities in there. Africa, African Americans, Caribbean, and all of South America. So it's quite a large group 85% of sex industry of women. 9% are male and 6% of trends. Now, all these figures come from the study that was done by Julian Abel, in 2007. But I do have to point out sexual orientation doesn't mean much at all. When you're Watkins, a sex worker. We haven't been gaming, who worked with female clients, straight men who work with male clients, the largest group of gay for pay if you want to put it that way. [00:15:30] straight guys, but the largest group of straight for paid and lesbians. [00:15:36] Most of it is indoor, that's it brothels set for previous website, things like that. Only 17% of it is outdoor. But you would tend to think by media representations that the act of sex industry is absolutely massive. Indoor sex industries can be talked about at all. And no, of the end of this section renovate. 62% big owner operated brothels. It's the managed brothels like splash and [00:16:08] Paris and lower hats and various other ones like that. [00:16:12] But 38% of the people who are walking privately by themselves, or with one or two others from the old balls in that's very important to remember. Now the camp that we did in 2007, with the pressure School of Medicine, showed that there were 230 sex workers on the streets in Auckland. Okay. 16% of the total number of sex workers in Auckland are walking on the streets. I want you to remember their figure, because in 2004, the police estimated that the number of street based sex workers in Auckland was 360. I want you to remember that as well. At the moment, you're probably aware that we're having problems as available to Parliament regarding Montreal City Council, the Auckland Council published a little booklet. And this is one of the images taken from that booklet, along with the blog that they have used. Now specifically highlighted part of that, in the downtime we're also approaching passers by and asking for money. want you to remember that little bit as well. Okay. So is the stigma against sex workers. sex workers previously operated privately as well prior to the prostitution and format in residential areas, close to churches close to schools, various other places. Prior to law reform, the Sigma kept those private operators very quiet about where they were. And a lot of people in the general population didn't know that they might actually be living beside a brothel. But I was with my first boyfriend. He didn't realize that house beside us were to private sex workers operating from the rowboat, quietly took him about a year to relax. Okay. [00:18:10] You can still run a brothel from your own home. And the [00:18:16] Matthew sets a couple in the Hamilton YK region, they are able to be quite open about owning a managed brothel in Hamilton. Lot of farmers they've had some effect in helping to D stigmatize the sex industry. But there are very strong examples of stigma against sex workers from rights where society in Monaco in particular, their claims that they're causing trouble that they urinating and defecating on the streets and leaving condoms and other offensive litter. Now I've taken a walk through Monica. Yes, there are some condoms. Yes, there is a lot of offensive litter. [00:18:58] There is a lot of other lizard as well. rubbish bins are often district rubbish bins are often packed overflowing. [00:19:06] The letter that I saw included normal household items that were windblown along the streets because of whatever. Yes, did you get wind and Auckland start just by adding to it also included school lunch boxes, obviously didn't like it. It was a guy's name. It was written on it. things he obviously didn't like but mom and pick them for lunch that day and decided that that's three over the fence. But it also included nappies. disposable nappies, and tampons. And sex workers don't use tampons, they use sponges. So those tampons could not have been from sex workers. [00:19:45] Similarly, [00:19:47] sex workers don't take the children out in the streets with them when they're walking. Leave them at home, in the care of someone. So those nappies could not have been for sex workers. [00:19:58] Trouble on the street. [00:20:00] In the same areas, the sex workers are walking from a bad there are nightclubs there fast food joints. So the noise isn't just from sex workers. But who gets the blame. The manager of city council in its wisdom decided to close the public toilets at six o'clock every night. So you get people coming at the bars at 1112 123 in the morning. And what happens, they wander along the street had a few to drink, need a purse, tire shop right there. So and yet again, sex workers get the blame. There were claims that numbers of street based sex workers had quadrupled [00:20:47] or had increased 400%. [00:20:51] At that time, now these have been shown to be false. [00:20:58] These are the types of things that people think actually saying about sex workers in South Auckland that they are vectors of disease that they a bunch of scrubbers and wouldn't touch them with the totem pole. So that's the type of things that's being said. But it's not only your letter writing for the newspaper that is saying such things. Gordon Copeland, former MP, Sudbury Curtis, former mayor of America, also saying sex workers and medical factors of disease. So street based sex workers in particular targeted as polluters with human and other dangerous waste as vectors of disease. There's a lot of nimbyism, not in my backyard going on. And they're also treated as the dregs of society that people don't want to associate with. People feel safe in stigmatizing sex, stupid sex workers, because everybody doesn't. This, however, results in greater violence and attempt at legislative change. The Monaco city council put in a bill into parliament in 2005. That failed because it was against the bill of rights of Parliament didn't want to put laws into one area without the rest of the country. In 2010, they tried again because of the change of government. And that was soon to be renamed the Auckland Council bill because if the changes up there, and it is definitely fueled by stigma against sex workers, and transgender people saw the image earlier. Just a little bit about stigma actually operates, operates in three ways. Firstly, you have the societal hostility. It's embedded within cultural ideologies. Secondly, how those ideologies are expressed through societal structure. And lastly, how individuals internalize those ideologies. That all of these ideas date back a lot farther than they did back to at least awkward and 54, who talked about extra punitive, which is the stigma that is outside of person and into punitive stigma, how stigma is felt within yourself. Okay. So how you feel about yourself affects how things happen. It's often claimed that self esteem is a risk factor is a factor in risky behavior, like unsafe sex. But research within New Zealand shows that No, it's not. It's actually stigma. The greater amount of stigma that a person feels, the higher the chance of risky behavior, and other risk and other sexual behaviors occurring. So what does it use, it causes that person to view themselves negatively reduces the expectation, increases risk behavior, such as alcohol, [00:24:03] and drug use, [00:24:05] safe sex, these integral affects how others view that person. And so it goes on nicely, nicely circles, Ryan and Ryan we go. So therefore, we need to educate society about the problems faced by transgender strictly sex workers in particular, and how societal attitudes feed the stigma and prejudices. One of the things that is being done, it's in the planning stages at the moment. And that's the New Zealand project plan to eliminate significant discrimination associated with HIV and AIDS. Just a little bit about the medical billing itself. This bill allows a local body to make bylaws that stop sex workers prohibit steps sex workers from operating in the streets in certain areas. Okay. [00:24:55] The trouble is, [00:25:00] what about sex workers who live in those prohibited areas? [00:25:05] What about sex workers who are walking through shopping in those prohibitive areas? [00:25:12] If keynote in Auckland is made a prohibited area, and sex workers are coming out of a community based on k road, with condoms and loops and everything like that, those tunnels and loops be used as evidence against them. Will they be accused of walking on the streets, even if they are managed in a brothel or walking from their own home? [00:25:36] The bill allows arrest on suspicion. [00:25:43] It doesn't only allow the arrest of sex workers because suppliers and Peter Dunne put a very nicely when he said, when we were talking with him about the bill, he said, that's not on. If I was to take my daughter downtown, and policeman saw me giving a money as she left the care, I could be arrested. That's just not wrong. So he realized then how dangerous this still could be as far more wide reaching effects and what isn't initially claimed. There are a lot of things that are going on around the bill. It's currently before a select committee. the select committee is still discussing it. We don't know exactly what's going on, [00:26:30] of what will come out of that. [00:26:33] Hopefully, they will do the same with this bill that they did with the previous one. However, it's a very different government that we have nowadays. [00:26:41] Now, I want you to think [00:26:45] about the numbers of street based sex workers that I mentioned earlier. Remember, there were 360 Street based sex workers estimated by the police in 2004 2005. And the first bill is project [00:27:01] the numbers have quadrupled. [00:27:04] And that was the reason for putting the bill in because we need to control these bad people. [00:27:08] And yet, in 2008 2007 account an accurate count of sex workers over a full year shows were only 230 is 234 times 360. Know what we need to do is to try and change attitudes. So that image that we showed you before that the Auckland Council used, perhaps it could have had that. [00:27:41] Because this is XY. [00:27:44] She lives on hope to reward [00:27:47] that's a flatmate. [00:27:51] The old person beside her is one of the neighbors. Right? [00:28:00] Under the medical bill, [00:28:03] because she's seen talking with someone on her own Street, which is one of the streets that would be classed as a no go area for sex workers. She could be arrested. Okay. [00:28:17] But if it would have Let's stay [00:28:21] and we're talking to the neighbors after being a shopping that would reduce the stigma. Thank you. [00:28:48] My name is Doug Wrigley. [00:28:52] I'm I'm [00:28:54] really aware that the entire time and the last two nights have been this beautiful body that I have not. [00:29:09] From my background, I've spent two days now slightly frightened that we're going to shoot out of nowhere 21. So please excuse my nervousness. [00:29:25] But I would like to acknowledge the room that we're in [00:29:28] the bracket. [00:29:32] My name is john Berkeley. [00:29:35] I wait for the New Zealand nurses organization is a lead organizer. I'm also the convener for a group called out at work, which is the for lack of a better expression, the rainbow meet with LGBT IQ neat week [00:29:55] for the Council of trade unions in New Zealand arterial. [00:30:01] And [00:30:04] unions in this country are organized they organize. I'm not sure how many of you understand what organizing actually is, but it operates and what we call the organizing diamond. The organizing diamond involves those people who are members involves identifying what the issues are that affect those members, and involves educating people to organize around those issues. And the final part of the diamond is leverage. By educating people to overcome those issues. We get some leverage, we talk to our communities and the roots and politicians, and we create change. People often think of us creating that change in wages and conditions. They see the other The ultimate goal of unions [00:30:55] as us to create social justice. [00:30:59] The International [00:31:01] Trade Union Congress representative spoke to us this week at our own conference here in Wellington. And I think that her name is Sharon Baris. And she captured that when she said, you know, the role of unions is to create a more inclusive movement that speaks for working people in the finance. And of course, that includes everybody. That doesn't make sure you clear your writing by tomorrow. If you're a young person, it's an all encompassing statement. [00:31:38] Work hasn't been around very long, in the big scheme of unions. [00:31:45] Before the Human Rights conference, here in Wellington, [00:31:51] and we, we undertook some research and monks unions because, you know, Union, Scott, or with that crew at this group called out at work, that 2004 [00:32:06] we have a camp for the pain, every two years, we'll meet you know, Skype like idea, right? don't have that. [00:32:16] With this embraces just before the Human Rights conference of union organizers, the people who represented everybody [00:32:26] about what LGBT, we didn't hit the queue at that point means [00:32:35] they're very few embarrassing [00:32:39] how many people didn't know what they stood for? What was even more embarrassing was the number of union organizers who said that they were unique a members of the Union. [00:32:51] And then sitting alongside that with a number of union organizers who said that, that that now, he wasn't able to save them. [00:33:01] Before we leave, because I hadn't seen. [00:33:06] So a couple of us, my colleague, replay avatar from the service of food workers union, and myself, pulled the sun. And we started to work with the unions and how it work and how they picked up that mantle. And we put we presented that what came out of that was the you know, everybody agreed that we needed to change that and the union movement of the union movement was going to be [00:33:37] the place for everybody. [00:33:41] What's coming out of that of the last couple of years is as a resource, called the gender and sexual diversity week. And the goal of this resource was aimed first and foremost at union organizers. [00:33:57] And we hoping to create change with it. And the idea is that unions are going to train the staff and the staff are going to train the delegates, because we know that we have low engagement with you know, the rainbow community, because nobody knows how to talk to them. Well, you know, this, this, the token ones out there, but like, you know, generally when you're talking to the workplace delegate, there's not you know, they may not even be out. So there's a whole myriad of problems there. So we've created a resource with some amazing people, including money, Mitchell. And it's called the gender and sexual diversity. Now the goal of this resource is to dispel myths and stereotypes, raise awareness of issues provide language and tools for inclusiveness. [00:34:56] Well, the organizations, [00:35:00] there are opportunities for them to develop diversity metrics, and track career advancement, to consider how inclusive organize their own organizational goals. For individuals, this resource is going to hopefully teach them a myriad of things, most importantly, at the house that aims to help demonstrate an individual's acceptance of LGBT IQ members and visible ways. [00:35:32] The next steps, this resources, completely LGBT. [00:35:46] That's a big, it's a big ask that we have here. And it's a big task we have in front of us. That's [00:35:56] very cool. Just be very proud of it. [00:36:01] And we include lots of interesting things like video, and two [00:36:10] wonderful graphics. This is my particular favorite, I want to say game. [00:36:22] We know that we have to start from a base of [00:36:27] knowledge. [00:36:31] We can even say [00:36:38] because a good deal of it is [00:36:41] with dealing with people who embroil the every component of the life, the social justice issues and fighting and fighting and fighting for what is right in the chest. And unbeknownst to the [00:36:59] they could be called buckets. However, we are about to embark upon the brave task of each Katie ignorance. Wish us luck. [00:37:12] We're hopeful for this. And we hope that by the time we come, we want to use time with another CTO conference will be able to see a buy in show that we making some inroads that we move in a heat. There's another part of this task side. And I'm apologize to some of the conversation around white privilege today. Because the next part of this journey [00:37:43] is to work with our other council trade union councils, such as quality Pacific, [00:37:53] in work with them, because they will work with those members to work with today. Now when I came back, he Mario tirado and with the theme we already with the coalition, and in widen else breed, that's a big challenge. And it's a big issue for unions. But it's one that we are hoping [00:38:19] to lead the way home. [00:38:28] One of the most incredible in finances, for our rights within the union movement, his comes through a partnership with the US union movement. The people that have helped us drive change in the union movement, are the young people. And for that we're really grateful and amazed and honored to be working with them. [00:38:55] think of anything else really useful to say about other than we hoping do some millionaires education. [00:39:04] And of course, I book pamphlets and you're welcome to take one. It's more on the table. And [00:39:18] thank you so much to all the speakers here. [00:39:26] We just open the floor for some questions. So your questions to any of the speakers or any points of discussion, this is really a chance for people to have a sign in get some ideas happening in terms of what's already happening and what we could be doing in the future. So if you are interested in speaking, can you just go around the clock? And just kind of given a little bit of a signal? And you know, and just point to your minutes? [00:39:57] Get closer? [00:40:00] Hi, just a general [00:40:01] way, have you gone to help it was the last thing that [00:40:08] the, the tracking, because that one of the things I found is that things that the idea of changing the face of sight is something that [00:40:16] was, you know, quite specific areas of the economy. So like any Apple, but what appear to be a group of people [00:40:25] and their community groups. So [00:40:27] a bunch of guidance, for instance, for them, [00:40:30] allowing them to self organize the idea of self organization line behind the idea of that them benefiting also from the parts of the trade union as well. [00:40:44] I mean, it's something I've spoken about and that do what what is your thoughts on that? I said, I'm positive. Yeah. [00:40:54] I guess it's the [00:40:57] the trade union unary, where there's a whole is trying really hard to [00:41:05] maintain its relevance. We have, we have the generations and it came up Sunday today with two generations of people missing. So we have all the union of surfing unionists since the day they started with only a few years ago, and we have young union is so passionate and coming through and they've discovered this new social movement, then they're like, Well, why is nobody told me about this? What we have, you know, what's just common sense is that the union movement in other movements for social change. [00:41:39] One in the same, just pay no one has a membership, and one is anybody who is passionate about the mission. So there's a common 3pm. [00:41:51] It's about making alliances and creating social change that interface everybody. [00:41:58] Thank you. [00:42:00] Sure, I guess I was, I guess, asked the question. I appreciate what you have to say about building alliances, and [00:42:08] particularly about what happened with [00:42:12] the campaign, and how there was quite a lot of, I guess, reaction within parts of the LGBT queer community about, about the radicals in the campaign and how they were going to, you know, spoil their quality. And I was wondering [00:42:28] what your thoughts were, because my experience that campaigns that actually kind of come through that we've ended up on are actually on the back foot. And that's within that kind of pain, they were very successful and marginalized a lot, change the voices. And we weren't really able to create the effective sort of relationships that we needed to do to be able to really challenge that and it really substantiates when and I wanted to know what your thoughts were reflections were on that? And how is it possibly what you could see sort of going forward how we might do that pleasure. [00:43:04] We didn't want better this time. We haven't past struggles, in that in past struggles, that victory has completely gotten. [00:43:16] And it's gone to sleep for 10 years. [00:43:21] The point is, that this conference is roughly the same [00:43:26] size as you might have got a year ago. And that is pretty damn cool. In terms of [00:43:34] the the history of these things, [00:43:37] think three is a very dangerous thing. Because it might because you get always people fighting for something, and they achieve it. And that for themselves that this is perfect. Life is wonderful now, and by God, what [00:43:59] a cool, it is just a subset. They feel like that. And the people have gone away the law students [00:44:13] who probably weren't on the whole, likely get the core part of the radical movement going forward. [00:44:25] And so I think we have lost all that much. [00:44:33] I think that we've learned a little bit about politics, I think we've made some advances [00:44:41] to [00:44:43] in our links. What happened, what was unfortunate, I think, is that some of the very least all radical queers were alienated from the campaign. And for a brief second inclusion there that that radical politics gets legwork and convinced on the reasons to fight for marriage or for I think that our main failure was in a failing to convince only for winning, that it was in their interests to join this campaign, that it would actually be a defeat for homophobia, not the biggest defeat in the world, not as significant as the old students thought it was going to play. But it was an important defeat Bama phobia. And so I think that that was our main failure. And if we, if we've managed to keep that Lyft, we will now be come out we would not be in a lot stronger position than we are. But we have we have made some links, we have some big [00:45:59] things you [00:46:05] love everything about of that same affiliate, what happens is the content that is [00:46:14] mentioned because dynamics [00:46:20] career was [00:46:23] conducive to [00:46:25] relationships. And the likely question why those that have another view of when it comes to beyond marriage to our slept was a sacred milestone that we wanted to achieve at the time. And I think that because the dynamics coded before they could talk that was lost in translation between each other the for the soul, each other's point of view. [00:46:59] Tomorrow, and that was right from the outset. The other [00:47:05] situation that arise was that was table that pertain to the campaign would be lost without recruiting does [00:47:17] that go down to and [00:47:21] from the point who's just deteriorated? [00:47:27] And also refers to those? [00:47:32] Well, good. [00:47:38] common grounds that we hit with, I don't say that we hit anything. [00:47:45] Well, I thought we were all fighting for a local. [00:48:00] Anything else on a Christian walk? [00:48:07] Is [00:48:08] sorry, I just hit the speaking order the kit, but we can keep talking about this topic. And it's going to set today and I've got Karen next. Okay, well, I'm going to completely change the subject and go to the six foot reform stuff. I was just wondering, I mean, obviously, the mainstream media and New Zealand put it lightly. It's not great. [00:48:36] And I know that there's been [00:48:39] I mean, there's a document that exists about like queer and trans issues and how to report it and sensitively. I was just wondering if there's anything similar on sex workers dark, not that I specifically think that because there's one on here in transitions that makes people report things any better and how this gene during of recent times and the sharp, I'm just wondering, I mean, obviously, some people take a lot of time to invest in work, and you guys do a whole lot already. [00:49:07] But I was just wondering if there's anything along those [00:49:09] lines into the business, each of the media [00:49:17] areas report in different ways. The press is more conservative than the Herald, for example, we're going to tend to think otherwise, the Dominion post tends to reflect the Cosmopolitan issues and Wellington better than the other two major newspapers should. The Dominion post has a very good attitude towards sex workers. And there is no real problem there. With the Herald. There is one reporter in particular, who tends to be a bit truck politicians. [00:50:00] And [00:50:02] unfortunately, he's written some articles that [00:50:07] the way they've written that tends to increase stigma, [00:50:13] rather than tends to actually address the issue of a [00:50:18] really, really bad recording episode. And they just go [00:50:21] around and interview kind of concerned citizens. And maybe that woman from New Zealand First, whose name I can't remember. Absolutely, yeah. And just kind of put them all in one article and just don't go [00:50:34] any other views. The claims that have been made by us and it we can't find any evidence, pointing to the truth, and the police can't find any evidence pointing to the truth of them. She supposedly goes out with someone from the mountain wardens, who we know as being very anti sex worker, and very, very anti transgender. [00:50:58] And I said some quite horrific things about transgender sex workers, actually. [00:51:03] But [00:51:06] the so called 13 year olds that she's walking on the street, [00:51:11] we can find the police can find subs can't find any traces. She's blaming those young people for being out in the street. [00:51:21] But why are they out in the street, what's happening [00:51:23] at home, that's making them to work on the street. The manager of City Council passed the bylaws in 2004 has a knee jerk reaction to the prosecution of Parliament saying that people couldn't operate their own brothels within a residential area that includes nearly all of the private sex workers that were in that area could not afford to hire commercial [00:51:45] premises in the center of Monaco city. So some of them opted to walk on the street. Not many, but some of them did. [00:51:57] Nevertheless, the total number of sex workers walking on the streets a month actually dropped the claims of 30 or 40 sex workers hanging out at seven corners. The police have been past that corner. And we have been past that cover on a likely outreach. And we've come to a maximum of six [00:52:18] people on the corner. [00:52:29] The [00:52:31] one of the things I was talking about the [00:52:34] stigma of stigma expel, you can actually see that the some of the reports that are made in Auckland, in the media, it's those sex workers over there. They're the ones that are causing the problem. I'm okay, I don't be that sort of thing. Or it's those sex workers. I was over there. They're always fried. You can't trust them. They're always cry. But I don't do that sort of thing. So you can see that sort of going into punitive felt stigma. [00:53:00] Yeah, it's other than the others. [00:53:04] And that happens from one particular reporter, who we feel should be. [00:53:11] Thank you. I had Caden licks. [00:53:18] I've been observing some of the government actions recently across a range of areas. That seems to be I don't know, a slick management of issues relating to marginalized people in a given take basis. And a lot of the areas of interest in the comment I'll give the example of [00:53:41] because of creation from a number of groups and recent research, the Minister of corrections said, Okay, we're going to change the policy relating to transgender people in prisons. So that's sort of like a given potentially word probably for sure. It's something positive on the one hand, and in the same week, the Auckland District Health Board says, Okay, we're closing your trainers health clinic, because funding issues and we're still engaged with with clients, but basically, they're shutting down. [00:54:17] So you've got [00:54:19] a sort of a group of, you know, two groups of trend, people being affected, potentially positively, potentially negatively. One, it won't cost the government much to do [00:54:32] the other taking money out of it. And I'm sure that there's lots of other areas with something that doesn't cost much like marriage equality, you're seeing what have I given you something nice, but at the same time, taking away in areas and and to me, that seems like a really slick way of managing potentially discontented sort of people to, you know, shut down the seat. And I don't know if you know, you've got views on it. [00:55:04] I think that the current government pairs, like slack as a word, I think that over the past two tubes, they've they've been the masters of announcing things and seeing how, how much human cry happens and how loud it us, and then moderating the session accordingly, so that they come out and spirit and reasonable people, because people because they've listened. And that's, that's that's how it's perceived and how is reported in the media. And I think it's a really dangerous thing. [00:55:45] So just on the issue was raising? Like, I think, partly, I agree, there was there was an issue of community communication, I think communication was so important for like, something like that. That I mean, I think there was some [00:56:13] kind of, kind of like life biosystems ongoing stuff. But definitely, I think one thing that a couple of people have spoken to have taken from what courageous was growing up was that we had a problem with people who wanted to get married. And, you know, that was never really the issue that was more at that time, that there were other day, there was a more fundamental structural thing that needed to happen. And also that the Caribbean just was actually approached to be involved in the campaign. And yet, when we came to meetings, we were told not to talk about polyamory, not to talk about trans issues. So it's like you have to be involved in the campaign. But you're not actually allowed to say what you think currently, now, you can only call this party line, which was basically quiet and safe party line that was really entertaining to appeal to make sure that they got the next level backup plan. And like I said, For us, it was more than we need, you know, to be able to address, you know, that there's a problem with like the sort of single issue politics, if that makes that, that you basically certain oppressed groups don't really matter kind of thing. Because Because you've got this issue, and you can deal with it, like a Comic Con. So that was that was really how it, how it played out for us. Particularly. Yeah, particularly in terms of the topics, we're going to be in this campaign, to not say certain things, which are important to say, but yeah, [00:57:43] in response to this, he had no idea that he's hoping that would have changed the campaign's perception that the station was extended, and I must admit, I was invited, and then you always talk to me, your Cobra gone down? Well, and secondly, that saying that they've been conditioned upon the campaign, that without another stream being put in for queer Avengers, that the conference was at risk. So I remember that they made people [00:58:21] feel jittery, also, [00:58:23] effect was that the followers had great mentors at that time, I would have tried to leverage myself, but [00:58:30] I think because of the initial misunderstanding, [00:58:32] it seemed like they carve out those was trying to hear him on marriage equality. And finally, it's August, huge difference between rainbow organizations seek to collaborate with each other to hopefully let them meet these misunderstandings. Thank [00:58:59] you truly understanding. The fact is that queer ventures had a program, which included [00:59:10] marriage rights, but also improved other things. But the queer pages was openly leftist, activist organization. And leftist activism scares later party lawyers. [00:59:28] And that was the background. [00:59:31] And the Miami miscommunications and people my motherhood things and so on. But that background of on the one side, Labour Party lose our side, we are activists, those attention, and that was found to be tension. That isn't the nature of things. [00:59:52] We have got to get used to the fact that a coalition is a coalition [00:59:58] and a TV [01:00:00] is a political spread. And there is tension between the left and the right. That is absolutely crucial. And containing that tension, the secret of every reform, we have money. [01:00:16] But we had that intention in 8586. And we can tame it. We had that contention last year and we contained it, it was difficult this time around. Because it was very difficult to control. All right, the right was pretty rabid. The people who are attacking the left from like trying to get that way in 8586. But we managed to get through to them. You right wing you nice conservative, right wing in this content was unionized, conservative people, they've done it like action on the skin with the leftist we either. First of all, you actually need the left. [01:01:05] And the left needs the right. We got to be together. [01:01:11] And that's what a coalition is all about. [01:01:15] That the right actually believe they didn't leave the lift [01:01:21] in this last campaign, and I got offended [01:01:24] when we did actually using us. [01:01:29] That's terrible offensive thing to say. [01:01:32] Bullshit, you didn't need us. [01:01:34] We were an important part of the conference wouldn't have happened without us actually. [01:01:39] I'm not saying that they wouldn't have gone through. But that wouldn't be nearly as much power line. [01:01:46] Not as many folks. [01:01:48] It was it was we actually believe that giving the left and the right to give them was important in us now I'm not for always away from the right getting together. I think that sometimes the left and the right to apply to out there with a actually agree on something [01:02:02] that is [01:02:05] a lawful that should be together. And we did actually [01:02:12] get to the split on it. But did we lose it? [01:02:19] Yeah, I did want to add something because [01:02:23] the youth union movement in at work, put a rain, you know, governance remote thing to the New Zealand Council of trade unions and all of the union's endorsed the legalized love campaign, [01:02:36] which was significant in itself. But you know, these were national secretaries of unions and people that make workers unions had no idea when they endorsed how their he cannot explain it to them. [01:02:48] Because they did it without consulting the membership. They did it in basic union, you know, social justice and equality principles. Why wouldn't they? [01:02:58] With an added wit, there was there was discussion, you know, we had a real problem with the campaign. The campaign, to all intents purposes was for gaming in this being woman that excluded everybody else as far as the the public image of the campaign leaked. How we back, you know, with hindsight now, and it's done and dusted. And all of the picture unionists have celebrated with us and painted themselves on the back and gone Yay, we're great people, we've been able to engage in conversations about what was wrong with the campaign, you know, who wasn't represented. And, and we can further our work, and we have the luxury now as a result of this last change in the movement to actually move things forward. And we've got people who want to be educated about what it is they're missing out on where the knowledge gaps are, and why it is that, you know, like, equal to strategies and heroes and other things, which they begin to think might be slightly offensive tunes, but you're not quite sure why. [01:04:07] And I think that's been a good thing from it. So, so kind of like the civil union at the time, you know, it was like, one small step forward for some people. [01:04:21] The change that came about and then significant, and I think that we need to acknowledge that there was, you know, even though it didn't represent the entire community, [01:04:35] there are better things to come because of it. [01:04:40] Thanks for I've got to, I've got a few more on this side of the room. I just want to ask analysis been hasn't been as many people pointing over this area, if anybody wants to say anything. [01:04:54] But if you're quite continue to listen luminous. [01:05:01] Yeah, I think part of this is the discussion of learning how to win as well. And I think often on the lake, we're so used to losing, that we weren't precondition to expect to lose, and we don't really fair enough, and actually, of how to win and what's required to win. Because I remember talking to friends from Australia, when I was like, yeah, two thirds of the national Patty conference have voted in support of marriage equality, except Nevada walk with fighting against it was like a party of the day to get there. This is insane. It's all that well, you guys are running on split campaign, teams, 1000 people mobilizing and stuff, maybe stop campaign, XE just like, wait a second here, kind of just nothing but a new day. So I think it's really important to type in as well. And as soon as I saw that, I knew that now saying the time that this wasn't a close friend of fame that it was being made activate this appointment to face the National Party. conference coming up in support of this, you know that there's something else pushing this forward? And it's not, you know, it's not, it's not 85 and stuff. And they seem to do so I'm not dismissing entirely. But I think one of the lessons to learn from there is I think that even after, even after the first vote, that landslide, that the score, so we don't want to split the horses, this is the narrow thing was still being pushed as a way of keeping us in mind. And I one of the things I talk about, in terms of this framework is the idea of making us taxes that and going out and doing things of winning, try new fans, they're pushing forward, remember the size, and the stakes are a natural part of doing practical work, you know, there's no there's no power. So it's really important that we step back and listen, we learn from our mistakes, and we learn to win, and to win better next time around because, you know, I think it was actually really amazing. With friends, the random way voice makes it clear comedians represented the chocolate was really cool. No was actually taken seriously, nationally. That was one of the main, you know, UK, it was it was it was like Louisa wall family first career muses, and that was really good. And I think that we should be really proud of in terms of how we demand to shape the team during that scenes. And so I should put that at the Roman side as well. Like, even at the time, like Norman to financial planning conference, and it was this course of the spoken of horses, and it's a close right thing. Yeah. And but again, you know, we didn't, we didn't run out of there. And you know, we want [01:07:47] to win. And if we're going to win as a community, we need to be driving the change as a community, instead of waiting for the favor of a devil to be pulled out of a backer action, we should be way more productive summit. Because that is where the powers that build that got put out pulled out of the fact that the you know, was was a good one, in order to address an issue, that the wider issues of the community need to be loving to create the bill in the first place. [01:08:18] Just on it, though, I think what's interesting, because one of the fish that we got involved in life, [01:08:23] youngster was [01:08:24] the civil union, the civil unions, and I find a lot of the hard work was done me. And I remember at the time, you know, even with signing this, is it for the lifetime for lifetime. And so on the other hand, I don't think we've made started was sort of this Oh, man, this feels kind of weird how that's going to go. A lot of people aren't talking to it wasn't on the agenda. You know, that really pushed it forward? Since I think I agree with what you're saying. But I also think there was no sort of, we want to definitely want to hear, you know, same sex marriage or whatever. The bill of self pushed it. And I think I was not surprised at five years on how smoothly that rain so I was affected. And hindsight is really obvious. And we could have pushed us and stuff. But I also think that it was quite, it was something that took a lot of people by surprise how smoothly [01:09:14] Thank you. I've got Okay, is there any other people who would like to make any comments or ask any questions? Otherwise, we'll wrap it up after okay. [01:09:24] Yeah, just wanted to contribute another little bit from some aspects with [01:09:31] another group here to the queer of inches, which seemed to be the only group that actually maintain the diversity in its campaigning and activities across the way because with legalize, loge I tried to interact with, they actually had no idea about queer and trans issues on the wider context, talking with their people, total ignorance, and I never really got into it to find into that discussion with the label to succeed green lead marriage equality campaign, there was so much fear diversity, that even when [01:10:08] getting petition signing and engagement with people in the street, we were told to only approach people between a certain age range, you know, ability range, you know, it's like, you know, we want people who will look pretty and normative and get them to the rarely outside parliament, because it was an attempt to manage the, the whole sort of image that was acceptable, you know, people got involved, then then that sort of Keighley Photoshop sort of grouping. [01:10:40] But it was still a, yeah, don't split the horses in a way that was always sort of quite insulting to a lot of the diversity within our communities. And I'm glad that john raised the sort of whole issue of that civil union campaign, because there was really have smoke, but what that was women on was a lot of the emotional appeals that [01:11:03] old couples long term couples, people who have a whole range of areas have been discriminated against, and had, you know, a real pain that that was what brought this one through. And this one here, we have a little bit of marriage equality, but it was like, it was more about this is time for a nice type thing to go through. [01:11:25] I'd like to ask what it is the community can do to support [01:11:32] the submissions in the upcoming you know, presentations to come [01:11:39] the submissions on the bill closed, [01:11:44] way back in last year, things so all the presentations and everything that's been done. The committee is still considering the bill. The committee has [01:11:59] requested the it pains me to see and the police and groups in Auckland and the Auckland Council talk with each other. And we have done so in front of a select committee and [01:12:15] at the Auckland Council buildings. [01:12:18] What comes out of that, so we still don't know no idea what country is going to decide on? [01:12:28] Yes, things but people talking to members of the select committee, and I'm talking to them about good public health issues, saying that if you push something underground, there's more likely to be more danger. And [01:12:46] various issues like that, that. [01:12:53] And also [01:12:55] talking about a restaurant suspicion, and how dangerous that can be. [01:13:01] So yeah, [01:13:03] what's the makeup of the flick me like a party representation. So [01:13:11] it's mostly national, with see later than green with one New Zealand First, which is a snotty [01:13:23] remembers on the Configure quite good. That's JM logging, who has actually worked with things at PC during the prosecution or [01:13:32] prosecution to follow. [01:13:38] Yeah, but a couple of things. [01:13:43] One of the things as mommy and I watch this very carefully, is that if you can actually keep people nameless. And what happens in the media is that we're ever we have a debate as Mommy, that's those Molly's always argue if they will stop arguing they get on so much better. And I had this a lot and I had a group of students. And they brought this argument to me. And I asked them over a three week period, to watch TV, to listen to the news. But every time somebody came up, they would say, Oh, well, that was the Prime Minister, that was john key, or that was such and such a person. It's not us. It's them. It's them. I'd say what I want you to do now is to take away their names, and just put how many times you see them arguing. With him three weeks, they came back shot, they say Do you realize it popping out of 20 more times likely to ask when we don't know their names, because we didn't take them as a group, not an individual. So what's happening? I think what I'm hearing here, too, is while people can say sex workers, we don't have to think about anything else. We can just say you're all wrong, I'm sorry, accountable. We know this $15,000 limit or levels that says you know, when it's in the paper, we know and feeds those bad humans. Now, Bill, you, right, you'd sort of say it about, and I hit some of you on the list, saying this that, you know that it's not always putting a limit with a negative person. And I've never won an argument with it. [01:15:50] But with all what we're looking at now is [01:15:57] I think the left the other projects that you were thinking about, [01:16:04] now need to start, we need to start growing. Because in the 1980s, during during the 80s when we were doing homosexual reform, wants them to have gone through everyone's music without there's no need to do anything else. It's all fantastic. It's right. There when we did the [01:16:28] civil union, though, [01:16:30] people wanted the marriage. And that was a really different because I'm over the marriage than to go through there. I'm really good. [01:16:39] And I thought it through and it took me a long time. And there was somebody alongside he was saying as they get to [01:16:48] have shot by him [01:16:52] and gave him a lot of the country wasn't ready for that. Or you would come. But I'll have to be patient enough for it to happen. Now, when we were looking at the marriage bill, I know my own brothers and sisters say But why do you need this reform? Haven't you got the civil union? What's the difference? what's, what is that? And they were trying to sort of understand and I'm saying to them, many of us would want to get married, we just want to have the choice. And somebody said to me at work? Well, now you've got through now you've got the sort of marriage equality, what differences of gonna make an isolated to the straight people, I can't object to any of you getting married to someone of the opposite sex. And they would watch. They said, but you couldn't do that you can't do that anyway. And I say now just thinking that [01:17:55] if we were the majority, and we say you can't come back, someone because they're the opposite sex, Think it through, what would you do about it. And they say good fight, tooth and nail. [01:18:13] And that's what we're going to continue to do. [01:18:16] There are people you're gonna lose during those times. And sometimes the fighting isn't as nice as other people would like it to be. And that's just the way it is. It's [01:18:28] you're gonna get people who are going to be scared. [01:18:33] And for those of you who've been in the protest movement, and people sort of say, Oh, I just like, I would be terrified. And some of the marches I've been on absolutely terrified button, there wasn't enough to stop you going out and doing us. [01:18:52] We need the left, we actually do me do [01:18:57] to make a kiss along there. [01:19:01] But if you take to heart and look it back, but I do want to work with you. I do want to work with you. But just remember that people will always talk about you, in general terms, the left, it's faceless, you're all wrong. It's let it run the right. It's faceless, you're all wrong. If I disagree with you, give me a name to them. And you might be able to just put the mumble [01:19:33] count on when I really do hope that this [01:19:36] you know that things happen right for you. And I also do know that most people will believe what the paper says because they will not agree that whether it's true or not. And that's just [01:19:52] we just have to be careful of that and actually try and keep moving next year. [01:19:56] There are a lot of times when we've actually been able to get the facts out there. Now, but still, there's a lot of reaction [01:20:02] to that. [01:20:05] When you have people in South Auckland saying the word [01:20:10] I got to my shopping there were 30 transvestites standing outside, [01:20:16] that many transgender people [01:20:17] in some form, [01:20:20] walking on the streets woman [01:20:26] Pride Parade or something like the seminar lie [01:20:30] to the people who are claiming that one of them who claimed that increased 400%. And the other who was saying are there's a lot more out there than there was previously. The prosecution Law Review Committee when I was reviewing the bill, the act in 2007 2008. As these people who are Can you give us the names of them? [01:20:54] Then effort. [01:20:57] Nice and yet, we could have supplied it VC could have supplied the names of every single one of the VC. I don't know streets. Because we caught we contact them. We talked with them. We listen to what they're saying to us. And no, they're not all fried. And no, they don't drink. No, they don't use dominoes or whatever, all the time. Some of them will have a little bit of smoke, [01:21:21] some little bit. [01:21:23] But they don't all do it all the time. And that's [01:21:25] what the stories that these people are saying. [01:21:30] And I'm sorry, just running about one time. So I thought that we're just right up there. But people are welcome to say and have some discussions afterwards. The three of you have any final comments that you want to put forward. [01:21:45] If you feel like you've seen everything in the altar, [01:21:48] well, this is my last opportunity. So I'm going to actually say goodbye I'm going home to kill it all tomorrow. See my father I don't see no wake up in here in Wellington enjoying your fight with them. [01:22:03] I'll share with you the story of driving from Palmerston North because the plane couldn't land and watching the windscreen wipers the bus going up to the ocean somewhere that was really interesting. Thank you for that got the heart pounding help me with the excitement. It's been an amazing couple of days. I'm hanging out with the queer Avengers and indifferently here I've absolutely enjoyed the conversation, the interesting undertones and the really important discussions that I see a heat of everybody in them. I look forward to hearing about we'll get to and, and learning from your experience. So thank you. [01:22:46] Quinn, Carter, I have had an amazing time, I felt welcomed. And I've enjoyed meeting every single one of these. So thank you very much. [01:22:55] words just sort of say [01:23:00] those who are speakers and those of you the money, that's fantastic box. There are two people here who have been working flat out all day, making sure that we can be heard that were there. We have had the cooks at the back who have worked a full day to get it. And I would also like to acknowledge those people. But there's one special woman that I want to actually take notice today. And Sarah, that's you. Because without you, I probably wouldn't have come. And I really thank you for that. But then she gave us those hundred tons on the idea. [01:23:47] Cool, thank you, everyone. For tonight. There's a couple of things happening in town and people are feeling up to it. [01:23:56] On today's [01:23:58] Sunday, something hits either which is a clearly and something me as well, I think tonight, so if you are feeling like it, if you just want to go home and sleep, I think you really needed my practice away in the morning, then, you know, [01:24:15] come around like everybody else. So yeah, thank you so much for participating in today and last night's talk. So there was some really, really good stuff that came out of it. [01:24:26] Lots of important important point [01:24:28] today is I really hope that some people took away some really useful, useful knowledge and action. And tomorrow we're going to be talking a little bit more about skills. So how we can put this stuff into place and what we can we can go from there. So big thank you to everyone for speaking today. And we also want to say I'm not here at the moment, but the cooks were just absolutely fantastic. And India and so and thank you again to the people who have been able to put some behind the scenes that can fight so thank you

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