Session 1 - Beyond conference

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[00:00:00] This podcast is brought to you by the queer ventures and pride and zr.com. [00:00:07] Good morning, my name's Sally dealer [00:00:11] on facilitating session with the top players around transforming fees and trans misogyny. So some pretty big words. So, just to start off just thinking about some of the definitions, so. And for me, I think we'll start with the word trans femininity, and trans women entities. And I read an article recently, that often, trans women are forced to be ultra feminine presentation in order to be treated correctly. It's something personal, often decided not to do and there are consequences with it. And then I don't necessarily pass with swimming, that's usually fine with me in a very difficult gentlemen male, I particularly hate the word might. I've yet to develop my response to that is probably thinking men as a way of reversing it, but there's just the expectation that as a trans woman, I'm expected to be present an ultra fame why, and that was the cultural expectation. And in my workplace, why the impression I have is that people have respected me because I haven't gone down that path. So that's a that's a mixed bag. So I would ask for seniors transform prison at five o'clock to talk about their experience of transparency as a way of introducing this is a topic to the group. [00:01:58] More International, so flourish as a transformer, and yeah, that was that it gets me this team did a lot [00:02:10] of Christian [00:02:10] was halfway there. [00:02:13] So shooting myself in the foot by [00:02:17] by expressing my demon in that one [00:02:23] was complicated. [00:02:26] I definitely felt that pressure to be human. [00:02:32] And I was trying, [00:02:33] and [00:02:35] it felt like [00:02:39] comfortable. [00:02:46] I also noticed that [00:02:49] there is a lot of pressure for social media to [00:02:52] calculate to the mirror feminine when transitioning from male female and [00:02:56] suffering my transition time decided to try as much as I can. [00:03:03] And a lot of swearing, [00:03:06] destroy any connections or relationships with people that [00:03:10] that enforce for [00:03:11] a keras these these beliefs, let's work. [00:03:15] I know there's a lot there, the pressures still damage. And now we [00:03:24] get to listen to speakers that despite [00:03:32] the way I'm transforming viewers, and the spice woman and my family space, it's very different to my workspace, is very different to my social space. Identify as a queer trans woman. So coming into the lesbian community and facing the bullying dilemma. And I've got a phrase that I use, sometimes I want to be pretty and sometimes I want to be a punk. And it's not an either or that it's about how I feel in the day. And what is it I want to say that means you don't want to get across [00:04:06] transmit [00:04:10] from a transport such as the way that people [00:04:16] treat me trademark MMZ as a trans woman. [00:04:21] In May, this has been particularly problematic in the family space. [00:04:27] My [00:04:29] daughter called me a child abuser for coming out as trans. My parents, my mother has told me what kids are going to commit suicide is teenagers because I'm expressing my trans identity. To me that that's a very powerful transmits option. On the other hand, my workplace has been very positive they had them on tape for me to welcome me to the system. So trans massage is very specific again to the environment that I'm in [00:05:02] it's part of my workspace on sometimes work in the back was a techie [00:05:08] people will use my preferred name, but they won't genomic curriculum. [00:05:14] And that's generally a group of intersection with systems miles in offer installation is that they don't want to kingdom and fame up because integral think that we are not [00:05:24] like like me [00:05:26] in a sexual way. And I don't want to go this other gentleman. Call me selling. So that was a different groups for me very different in terms of the transaction. [00:05:38] Does anyone else want to speak on your experience or transmit [00:05:44] a question about that? [00:05:46] genuine you so that they don't have to think about [00:05:49] whether or not they like you? [00:05:51] If they did you correctly with it make you uncomfortable if that was something that I hit my [00:06:00] disavow, the more the better idea that no, there's no sexual interest there whatsoever. And it's just a [00:06:09] case of being exposed. [00:06:14] And making validating more identity, as opposed to keeping themselves safe by machinery. [00:06:30] So that is that's my experience of trains massaging either. [00:06:35] So I personally go but there's also a cultural will. [00:06:41] And obviously, [00:06:43] how we trans people portrayed in the media [00:06:48] have trans people in great health services, there's a whole whole range. [00:06:54] It's very much like a document. [00:07:00] As far as the dentist is going to talk about some of the specific issues that [00:07:06] want to talk about, and maybe the the first one, what I'll bring up is the [00:07:15] the explosion from female spices. Now, I'd be very careful here because whenever I've asked for access to female spices have been given access to my workplace, there at the Carlson department either and from the Human Rights Commission, me know I have, they are required to provide access to female spaces for me. [00:07:42] I asked to join a library here in Wellington, which is a lesbian library in August is transforming as far as far as I'm aware, on the first training to ask for access to that library, I was given access. The Spice that on camera working on is around [00:08:02] the UCLA Thursday night. [00:08:06] submission to the parliamentary system committee inquiry into the funding for sexual abuse health services. And one of the fences that translates to space law from trans woman excluded from healing space. Now, it's not a blanket explosion. Those services generally provide three services, telephone counseling, which is available to anyone [00:08:33] answer the phone and talk to anyone. [00:08:35] There is one on one counseling, which can be done can be for it to be done the spice [00:08:43] of life from a [00:08:45] woman who might be threatened by twins. [00:08:49] The third one is being in a group of people who have been through a similar experience and being able to share that experience. That is the spice that I'm excluded from. And Keith was I initially asked for access to that space. But I certainly have not been none of the information I have seen has been it's possibly making that space available to me. [00:09:17] So that that's my experience of [00:09:21] getting access to [00:09:24] female only spaces. There are some spaces, I don't feel very safe. And that would be changing one course I'm just not gonna go there. [00:09:33] Not for a long time yet. [00:09:36] But that's a personal issue, that my safety may not be the same for other transmit. I can just connect to the forgiveness anyone who would like to comment on access to safe spaces, because I've talked about my experience, others might hit different experiences. [00:09:58] We've touched briefly on the touch briefly on the [00:10:02] exaggerated hyper sexualization of trans trans women in the media. And trans women often there's a cultural expectation that we will present in a very feminine male that wraps both the makeup and to the way we dress, wearing dresses and skirts and pumps and all the transit and pearls set up. As far as I'm thinking back to my teenage hood, and the portrayal of the trends, one of the major New Zealand was very much focused on Cameron. [00:10:41] And she presented the very ultra feminine. [00:10:45] This is the light seem to start with as Bob Jones mirrors, council elections. And that was by the only New Zealand example of a transforming right here, had it just to be Johnny bony pretrial media. There were a couple of overseas people that were available at that time, and I'm thinking of Jim Marrs Greg conundrum. But that was who was very much a written and newspaper counselor, there was no visual expectations. Now the person that crops up tomorrow is Renee Richards. [00:11:25] And again, the software engineer was about pink bar. So that very ultra theme [00:11:33] presentation about around the feminine presentation. I think [00:11:42] my experience is that the design [00:11:47] a lot of the public stina teachers probably have it have a trouble making this distinction between [00:11:55] a drag queen, a trans woman [00:11:58] is a trans woman on the expected to be present like a joint. And that's, that's not what I meant, at all. This is my identity, it's my performance. Again, I'll ask if there's anyone who wants to display [00:12:15] when I [00:12:20] one of the comments that was made to me was the audio processors were targeted at a [00:12:29] previous job, but also not. Because I [00:12:36] was a culture cetaceans and transforming the lives [00:12:53] of other stuff as well. [00:13:00] This year, I read a book coming close by and it was called loving girl. And it was alright. [00:13:08] Well, it was it was a very good book. And it was a big chapter on I think on media representations of trans woman. And one thing that she talked about was there in documentaries, for example, about going there, this is more and more documentaries about trans people coming out and that sort of thing. But she said that a lot of people are a lot of journalists were especially sort of interested in filmmaking one to sort of capture trends when getting ready for stuff like putting on like, applying makeup and all those other traditional film and things like that was something that they definitely wanted to capture. And it really [00:13:52] and I don't know, like maybe the [00:13:56] the kind of selection process that they wouldn't go through to try and like patrol to find, to find a transmitter would would agree to God, I was like, this is very sort of one of the biggest [00:14:10] things during that was something is there. What's it like working with if you're like, going out and [00:14:18] like searching? No. [00:14:22] It doesn't seem like it will be particularly helpful. [00:14:26] And just getting a wide range of representation. [00:14:32] Now, Karen, seems like media is not interested in seeing [00:14:37] trends. As Mona, I just want to see [00:14:45] that they were [00:14:49] growing up in New Zealand and Cindy's coming through the 80s and the 90s. The representation and transform the media wasn't VOB. Like I'm here, every mountain, there was almost no Paki out friends, women portrayed in the media. And I'm thinking to other examples, obviously Tamar and Georgina ban. [00:15:09] And I'll challenge anyone to [00:15:13] think of a [00:15:15] Paki out trans woman who has been had a high profile New Zealand media, and the last three or four years. So [00:15:34] I won't comment on it lives. [00:15:40] And that brings off of transforming having positive role models of young trans kids, because trans kids are coming up more and more, there's been the article papers about the young trans boy who was going to be [00:15:51] given hormone blockers. And [00:15:57] the naked rich, and there's almost no positive role models, trans middle trans woman. And there's not that they don't, we don't exist. But the media doesn't want to see us on a positive light. There are certainly being professors at universities who are trained, but there are people within and the sciences and the arts who have a profile, but the media choose not to. Now part of it is some friends, people don't want to be recognized as trans Athena for this trend. And that is an issue. So that complicates header as a member of the trans community, how do I provide provides positive role models for young trans kids as one of the things that I think about a lot? How do I give those kids so high, you can actually be a value in do something really valuable in the community, but that there's never conveyed, I can't convey that to them. Because I don't have access to the resources to do that. And the media is not [00:16:57] as it is a transforming. [00:17:00] So I think that made it a really important issue that the community going forward is about providing positive role models. I mean, you talked about the prostitution and drug addicts. That's that's people's perception of trends that the street workers American. And that's not a trans issue. That's a cultural issue. And it's an oppression issue around racism and sexism with other it's not a transition, but they split where people want to push us. And that's that's what appears in the mediums that very Nick negative representation, so and they do have a positive representation on the media. I don't know how to achieve that. But it's certainly something I'm thinking about in [00:17:51] another topic was down for for discussion [00:17:55] was around [00:17:58] my Oh, socialization, transmit so in friends won't grow up as young children are socialized as males. So when I move into feminine space or female spaces, that they bring the socialization with them. [00:18:11] And that that's been [00:18:18] one of the, I suppose that one of the first place I became aware that was reading in the early 80s, generous Romans to try and see the water damage to that particular book at that time. This idea that trans women can't feminine because they're bringing this male history with them. [00:18:47] There are some things that have been socialized. But the thing I'll talk about bringing up today was the way that I listened to people. When I'm sorry, she lost his mind. He listened to broker for five min talking, uses broker for for women talking, why the conversation structure is very different. When the main talk, and this is just a personal observation is that there's a lot of interjection and either talking and interruption. And that's accepted as being part of our conversation. You listen to a group of women talking, and the speaker is allowed to finish what they're saying before the next business starts. So the way I listen, as a male, I participate in the conversation very active way. When I listen in a female way, I'm actually being respectful and making the person say what they need to say. Before I didn't put my point of view. That's a very broad generalization. But people talk about go to parties, all the women catching all the means. It's because the conversations are very different. Or can be different. So that is coming in, in like a small industry as a as a frenemies transition much older, that's more of an issue for me, because I've been in it now space much longer. [00:20:07] In right, be quite careful about how I how I wasn't. [00:20:12] That doesn't, that socialization is not a bit more dangerous, but we're going to socialize, I have been socialized. And it's not my mother speaking, it's not a matter of male male privilege, as a matter of trans oppression, or being put in that space because of transition, not because I'm existing male perfect. So that that [00:20:37] issue of socialization [00:20:41] I think it is a genuine issue. But again, I think that [00:20:45] making the accusation that I can't be allowed these spaces, because I've been socialized to smile, rather than saying, hey, these are the ways you have been socialized as male, can you think about how you might do that in a feminine space and me to think about how you've been socialized has been to be feminine. [00:21:01] And again, that [00:21:06] comes down to the audio of [00:21:12] the panelists being cancelled was about gender binary. Gender was a performance or gender was a social construct. [00:21:22] That week, that's part of it. [00:21:27] Does anyone want to comment on aspects of the socialization now I'm loving this to any anyone, their experience of male socialization of female socialization, and how you transition from one to the other, whether it's appropriate or not, or she'll be trying to remove us this idea of genius construct and that's just been [00:21:51] my experience [00:21:56] is definitely not clear cut the line between the two, I don't know [00:22:03] what [00:22:05] I should have picked up a real mission. [00:22:11] And some sometimes [00:22:17] it's [00:22:17] useful, sometimes it's not there's a lot of stuff that can [00:22:24] unlearn that [00:22:30] was quite difficult and enjoy to to learn in the first place, defense mechanism. But also, the socialization argument. The socialization idea has got some issues, and tends to presume this this universal shared experience, my people, braids, just go straight to be one. And that there are the differences along the lines of awesome race, disability or anything like that. And that's blatantly untrue. So it sort of [00:23:12] that it does risk [00:23:15] for the Jenga game, the next socialization, above all else that shows very questionable, [00:23:25] really minimizes the individuals it [00:23:34] contribute to their own self and what they, what they [00:23:40] learn from socialization, what the takeover, they become through that process. [00:23:49] So suggest that we rewrite this rather than [00:23:55] start to the ourselves. [00:24:01] I'll just chime in and say, and the socialization my experience as a child was that the idea of humanity passed on to me [00:24:10] was quite different than maybe other ones. And so [00:24:12] like, when you talk about [00:24:14] marriage being used, a few agencies within Islam, [00:24:17] and me says me quite commonly used to tell me that they're not attracted to me, which is like [00:24:23] sweet Cola, not interested. So [00:24:26] it's interesting how sometimes those things tend to seek when you're not [00:24:30] the right social femininity. And [00:24:37] the that means socialized to be male, as a huge amount of growth is wrong, because for example, growing up as a daughter of a solar day, we're really trying to get in touch with it [00:24:56] is [00:24:59] my sister and I go grew up without a mother role model. But I think the parents, you know, they can be [00:25:10] situations where they know, when my dad was an attractive man. [00:25:16] He was so in touch with it, and that side, that the assumption that he's completely socialist is [00:25:23] kind of unhelpful. [00:25:28] Thank you for contributing. Just [00:25:37] decision was counsel. [00:25:40] And I just want to touch on it briefly, because [00:25:44] during deconstructing six agenda, yeah. [00:25:50] The idea that general is a social construct [00:25:54] 620 leaves and genius 20 degrees. [00:25:58] So that was this, that's not my background on my backgrounds as a political scientist. [00:26:06] So [00:26:10] this idea that gender was a social construct, you know, I would actually put one more word in here, and I'll be quite happy with it. And it's gender expression, as our social contract the way Gina has expressed an interest to culture, gender identity, why make sense of whether I'm a male or male or female. Me and as a stuff in the body of scientific women, that's, that's one of the things that's important to me in coming out was to track down at science and understand medical medically what it was that hit is that the physical structures in the brain that give me my gender identity, [00:26:45] this is something and body of work now that that actually backs it up [00:26:50] into some agenda, it's not just a social construct, it also has a physical [00:26:57] there are physical structures in my brain that can be done gentlemen, and that person for everyone [00:27:03] just to [00:27:06] watch your surroundings [00:27:07] really good, she goes into the detail quite a [00:27:11] lot of detail and she [00:27:14] is biologically inspired, but also socially encouraged. [00:27:21] Something that [00:27:21] is encouraged by knowledgeable was encouraged. So, you can say strictly June 1 from six [00:27:31] to two bodies of knowledge is the physical medical body of knowledge and is the social ass body of knowledge around gender from the gender studies and women's studies. And if you got it, you got to combine the two and get something that comes out that combines both sets of knowledge and that's around gender as both biological gender identity as as a biological basis, but gender expression where I express my gender as a social assumption constraint and the challenge transmit the Richard Richard crossing that boundary and that that's the challenge to the bulk of society that people should not cross that boundary and here we are challenging that boundary very open very nice topic I sort of want to talk about is maybe the racial differences in the way transportation transfer socially in trans communities are expressed and then you touch briefly on having the examples the media being Carmen and Gina bar, who come from a background [00:28:41] in Muslim can [00:28:45] give even words but for some on cups of tea and punk culture is a similar a group of similar identities oriented issues it's not not not a one to one question been trained with transgender but I have there are some wooden entities within the different cultures the point or Dr. The observational make as the unpacking house assaulting museum was very impressive very transphobic very homophobic that was my family environment one I grew up in someone who grows up in a different culture and some own culture [00:29:27] doesn't have that [00:29:30] because of the [00:29:34] presence of anyone that within that culture there was a an acknowledgement that is a valid identity [00:29:42] so that we know I [00:29:45] don't sorry when I interact with people from in the park our environment in people miss Gina me in this more identity, this trans massage name. Someone came in from a different culture from a salon called dealing with those those that issue that the assignments fears I experiments, because on the own culture there except your gives us much more exceeded that probably not seeing it in the fine line in terms of trends, misogyny, and transphobia. [00:30:21] Come that may be saying a context of racism, [00:30:24] their experiences, it's not transphobia it's actually racism I'm experiencing. So what I experienced is transphobia maybe experience for someone from a different culture something very different. [00:30:34] In [00:30:39] suppose other than [00:30:44] just being aware, I've learned people their own experience in actually validating people's experiences, as opposed to imposing my experience as a as a global experience on everyone else. [00:30:59] Does anyone else want to speak to it? [00:31:05] I'd like to leave at the because I don't think it's valid for me as a pocket woman to go any further into that without input from people from different cultures. There's enough not enough notes for the session, there's a topic around [00:31:22] the dcx ization of trans people increase prices. [00:31:27] This is not something that I'm personally familiar with. It's not something that I've experienced, or something that Megan wants to bring up. So I can't really talk talk, but Is anyone here wants to talk about that? [00:31:40] promoting the space [00:31:46] so to speak, at the [00:31:51] forum. [00:31:53] So that's not [00:31:56] this is not Pete, I wanted to facilitate discussions with him discussion. So I'm quite happy to open the floor. Now, if people want to make a contribution. I mean, I would like to start the end just to sum up, but people want to start with I open the floor to just people to come in. [00:32:19] So I don't often speak for anyone else. But my own take the silence to be even more than just spoken listening, to an extent. But what I get somebody interested is that, I guess I see myself is an ally. And I do my piece by deeply good to get it. One of the things that I found interesting, especially in craving, just a standard up was the way in which transitions and queer issues overlap. And I'm sort of putting the same box but aren't necessarily in that there was some interesting discussions about how not only trans issues, industry queer issues, and every interesting and it's not that was definitely pulled up and some kind of a more weird, it's kind of interesting people's thoughts on that. The trade that transition queer issues in the sense of novice that people are trading studies 3d always, you could be struggling on straight trends and not issues yourself as we present all the normal issues within the quiz space, at least one that was engaging with and listening to when it's really saying to be fully transparent. [00:33:38] Curious about [00:33:45] do trans issues hit to [00:33:50] the point is that they often pops together as being one sided when cannot is just a lot of parallel and Oakland times and have been had an guidance that you know, someone wants to be supportive, and [00:34:07] just as [00:34:08] epic as possibly what Philip discussion find framework. So navigating this space, and just being more informed and literate around these questions. [00:34:22] Coming to the trans community is a very heterogeneous community. [00:34:28] As far as the obviously, when I've seen information, data on sexual orientation in the trans community, it's generally falling out on a 30 3030 10% framework. So 30%, interest is 30%, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, and 10% are a sexual but very diverse. Some trends, people want to further and seamlessly into community, and not be seen as some people are opened up being from so that there's the one that was the one unifying issue for the trans community is probably around health and access to health issues. [00:35:15] And there's a session after this on that very issue. So I don't want to go into any detail here. [00:35:24] So that, that observation that Eastern, [00:35:30] this transparent community side of boost that to talk about having Trans Pacific issues, that there are issues that are specific to the different groups within their community. There's no vision or homogeneous trans community. [00:35:44] Be more observation. [00:35:55] Emerging within transformative [00:35:55] because I [00:35:59] am the there was a [00:36:02] capsule hedge released pamphlet about wanting to bring her on street prostitution. And there was [00:36:11] a there was a trans [00:36:13] woman academic, who was kind of trying to battle the stereotypes that all trans people with straight work. She was like, No, some went off. It was kind of I don't like those pants. Women were, you know, trying to fly no lawyers, and high achieving some kind of honor that the politics of respectability and trans movements. [00:36:40] I suppose the spice I'm aware of it happening is positional curtain boy, Emeka, Yama, who is famous in the four and six, woman of color on the status, she was writing about trans access to the American woman's festival was music festival, in a physical way, transport school, no trains, friends, mineral oil trains, women are excluded. [00:37:10] And that there was within the trans community itself. The [00:37:17] white middle class presidency will, we've all had surgery, we should be allowed because we surgically same physical appearance is the same as a woman. But those that haven't had surgery, and it was often people of color. And people from lower classes that should be excluded because I am that was point one, there wasn't a transition go at it become a class in a race issue. So I found, again, this is this. sexuality, we've got to be very careful in on the way that I'm speaking is a [00:37:57] world class parking a woman in the [00:38:00] my trans experience is very different. Somebody comes from a different culture or a different class. That doesn't invalidate my experience, my experience is still. But as my experiences my experience, I cannot change that. And I can't change many other things, but it's about being open. And the [00:38:23] sign that will [00:38:25] take for example, that that the medical Street was is [00:38:29] I'm angry because there's a negative portrayal of trans woman and there's no analysis, they're just seen as a problem, rather than what resources does our society provide to those, those trans woman to access, access jobs, access, access health care, the funds that are available to me as a middle class path? Yeah, woman friends, that are not available to them because of race and class issues. So [00:39:02] it's difficult. [00:39:05] Right, from the stance that [00:39:07] Denise bang was concerned. [00:39:11] I think there was some quite wealthy, [00:39:14] wealthy, high profile transfer canoes, wanting to push a lot of money and campaign to repeal don't want to [00:39:24] trade and you're saying that, [00:39:26] you know, it's quite easy for politics get swayed by you know, one person [00:39:31] or one money. [00:39:37] That's, [00:39:39] that's always necessary. If you've got money, you can, you can achieve things, if you haven't got money, it's a lot harder, and a lot of work and a lot more energies required to, to do it, because I have to do the work myself, as opposed to who I want you to do this, I'm going to pay them. [00:39:56] Everything is going well, I need to maintain momentum, [00:40:02] to do activist work as well, and be effective. And that work as [00:40:08] an edit. And a difficulty. That's not that I don't want to do that work. But my capacity to do that work as a normal. [00:40:17] I am question in regards to [00:40:22] about [00:40:24] current representations of the media, in my observation that they sort of like to, [00:40:30] I mean, [00:40:31] it is sort of like to sort of stereotypes, one of them being like, the secret sort of Southeast Asian trends person who surprises someone like, you know, client into associates motive surprises, the middle of Hall shopping, it's a hilarious joke. I can I can joins the age of reason. I think. So maybe the hang up tonight, let's see, let us hold on to this. The other kind is, like, I think we're the ones [00:41:06] fighting, so we're pretty close to breaking someone, like some [00:41:13] natural transition. But like in those in like, in that case, it's sort of I think that character was sort of like, some guy was like a, you know, it's very much like that person is obviously friends. You know, like, it's just so obvious. It's like, doesn't it doesn't need to be, they don't be excited about because it's just what audiences who might not pick it up otherwise, because that is really into something. But I was wondering if there was any other like, the other representation or the other things that [00:41:44] people kind of like, the two options are really big character? for like, 63, basically, because, you know, oh, no, I was attracted to this person. And they turned out to be trans. My masculinity is not threatened by [00:42:00] Yeah. options. [00:42:04] Yeah, so I was wondering, like, what I'm like, what was what? How do you want like, transfer it to me? And like, what, how would we go about what characters would kind of want to see to either battle that or, like, on [00:42:21] the same characters, Zika. Whereas with it, it's not really an issue. I think it's like a common thing with, it's not just a training issue. It's like it, if you know, what, middle class, Sis, man [00:42:34] woman on TV, or [00:42:36] somebody that had to get a complex portrayal of a complex character, because the issue becomes that as you know, like, [00:42:44] well, it's kind of like, it's kind of, I mean, that's kind of the obvious way to, you know, just have a transparent, he was an old character, like you, like, you know, just like, have it not be a thing, but then I'm going to talk about it, let's say you're watching film, and they weren't talking about any of those particular issues. You may or may not know, I wouldn't be relevant to the story. But, um, what if they were going to talk about transitions? How would you, [00:43:19] like, there are some sections of trans people, which, you know, like, talk about the fact that they're trans and some of the stuff that they're dealing with in the lives [00:43:28] but not just be like, kind of that stage where you're all about, [00:43:32] you know, saying that this transformation, when this person puts on makeup and becomes a completely different person from [00:43:41] just relaxing session was stuff like, you know, stuff that focused on [00:43:47] aspects of a person, [00:43:52] which are not specifically about him being challenged, but also, it's talking about [00:44:00] transcend the defining tracks, but it's still [00:44:06] trying to people have issues [00:44:09] because we're trends, but we also deal with a lot of other stuff in our lives. And just like everyone else, we're not one dimensional people. [00:44:20] And when I was talking about like, just be characters like yubico, yes, I didn't mean that. That that would be physical, I mean, that it would be like a non issue like that, they could experience a range of experiences, like, sometimes the most complex characters that we see are the ones that are the, you know, the most normal actors, if you're allowed to be a total [00:44:39] hero of black women and [00:44:41] girls, or whatever, but [00:44:42] you can't be a total factor. If you've got some other issue that's hard to talk about. Whereas Wouldn't it be nice if there could be a character who's trans and who was a bit of a fuck up, [00:44:53] but it wasn't like it [00:44:56] wasn't a known long ways. [00:45:00] Like what we're talking about [00:45:01] being a drug addict, or a prostitute, that those women issues that maybe it was, they couldn't cook for, like, [00:45:08] breaking all your shirt, the Barefoot man who you know, creates [00:45:11] all your stuff. [00:45:14] Because [00:45:16] if someone is trends in the same way, that if someone and maybe yours, okay, queer, or a person of color, they have to be almost like a perfect representation, and they everything to all people. And so their experience doesn't reflect like the homogenous experience. [00:45:40] Exactly. That particular [00:45:43] thing for women as well, because like any woman, any woman capture, the show has to be, there's much more pressure to be likable, and relatable. And that's something that like, for prizes, and so to see actually identify where she gets the shows with me, and with a quite complex and not very good people, and so forth, but you asked him to actually be sympathetic towards [00:46:15] the cause of their issues. [00:46:20] Let's see some music or something. They're saying like, top hundred or top thousand, or something like that movies, none of them have any, you know, friends characters, at [00:46:32] some [00:46:37] point is the one positive profile, the trade accomplishments, character is highly encouraged. [00:46:51] Just a little bit, there's a character who's been a woman in the soap opera for many years, who went through transition in marriage, a whole lot of other complex issues besides being trained. So that was a complex portrayal of a train, in sympathetic trial, the trains camp. [00:47:09] But that, given the environment, romance, I promise you, I [00:47:16] was able to develop the character, where is a lot of a [00:47:23] lot of films, there's a very short time frame in the ability to develop a complex character, as [00:47:31] you know, we're mostly talking about [00:47:37] the case of the meaning of whites. That's a very common movie character. Caroline was off the top of my head, but certainly we have half a dozen movies with it. That's the caricature that's presented, presented as a trans woman in [00:47:57] transformed [00:48:04] I'm just thinking of sort [00:48:05] of media trends will come to mind that I know would be problematic, but I think quite different reasons [00:48:14] for listening, in trans America, and also [00:48:19] woman and [00:48:21] are interested in. And [00:48:28] I find that if [00:48:31] I'm saying here, I just kind of wanted like, [00:48:33] maybe two people that immediately springs to mind within cops, especially. Because I think on the one hand, it's really great Mike. [00:48:42] And, as a familiar with oranges, new black, but it takes place in the woman's prison. And so there are many, many issues with this show that I don't really want to touch on. First, the bottling line I quite like to have a character actor is that she [00:48:58] doesn't fall into the studio type of the drug [00:49:00] drug addict or prostitute, she's [00:49:02] not in prison for those kinds of crimes. And her crime is still connected to her being trained. And so it's not perfect, but it is still, it was gratifying for me to see that. And I'm just kind of wondering if anybody else wanted to comment on that. Like that would be kind of like just those [00:49:28] problems that you were thinking of in terms of [00:49:32] I know, the people who were [00:49:37] don't know, it looks like I haven't seen the movie, but I do as a commentary being my wife become a system and butcher up for lack of a better term, to make her look like a trend. Sorry, like to make you look like a trans woman. So they got instead of getting an extra trans woman actress, [00:49:57] they got assessment, [00:49:59] and maintenance look more [00:50:00] manly. And you know, and like, I feel [00:50:03] like that's just a really great [00:50:05] way to entice the [00:50:07] general population [00:50:09] is that's the question that comes to mind for me is [00:50:11] how many trans women and me and film and television that portrayed by trans woman? [00:50:16] Yeah, exactly. I look [00:50:19] on the one that I think [00:50:23] they were actually some of the transformers. Oh, [00:50:29] I just remember that. [00:50:38] Nearly at a time. [00:50:41] Just to wrap up some discussion. [00:50:45] As one, one point, I would like to add in terms of the media, and that's the the problems that my children watch normal. Watching comedies on TV, one take you to one TV for whatever it is. And invariably, potential of people crossing gender boundaries is used, laughs negative Why? There is the message that I have, that my children are receiving on a weekly basis. For me, that's probably the portrayal of trans people in the media as that they will, that that's the most problematic for me, because I can come back and [00:51:26] play with the new season. So thank you for coming in, in philosophy, it might be weird. But it's okay. I hope you got some things you can take away from us. And just as anyone who would like to make some final comments. [00:51:48] I wanted to say that [00:51:53] my partner, I made her actually it's she made her last week. [00:51:59] It was a wonderful audience [00:51:59] Copeland, and she was on a trends, two panels. And one of the things she said that attracted me to her was that she brought up this being a trans woman doesn't necessarily, obviously mean the stuff that even in traditional feminine ways, and she like she herself is very androgynous character, and she genuinely doesn't give a crap about what people think of the way that she wants us to dress. And doesn't make any any particular image to like, [00:52:32] for instance, which is something, I think, [00:52:35] mostly rushed, but anything any dramatic respect [00:52:39] for doing something even [00:52:45] even more non traditional way. [00:52:57] Tragic friend, and she in normal life, the whole thing's with the prostitution, a lot that come through the other end of it. And one of the things she suddenly sued, which I never thought about before. She said, I pay taxes. And that was something because most of us do anyway. You don't think that other people will take that as something that for whom that was very special, because it meant that she was part of society, he was paid away as everybody else. And I think that's another thing that can looking at people, but in this case, transgender people to know that they are paying taxes to know that they are part of a society that doesn't recognize a lot of things, but there are many of them are paying tax taxes and some of my quite high taxes the same as everyone else. Just something because couldn't've being a textile it I just never thought of it has been an issue. But when somebody had said that come through that and quite proud, is it. I'd like taxes now. Was that something I never thought of as an issue. For her, it was something to say I'm proud of you. You are part of me. Okay, [00:54:27] thank you very much.

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